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Author Topic: "An Assault on Our Soul"  (Read 14501 times) Average Rating: 0
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stashko
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« Reply #180 on: August 29, 2010, 03:27:35 PM »

We srbs Love Holy Russia 
Only because of Russia's support for Kosovo to remain part of Serbia...


Russian and serbian Love For One another Goes back Centuries...almost timeless , you might say..... Grin
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« Reply #181 on: August 29, 2010, 04:50:42 PM »

It's Hard to Believe Your  a Orthodox Christian ...It really is ....All Eastern Holy Orthodoxy One...United Nothing Should be able to seperate us  From it...I hope Your not a Roman Eastern catholic Agent sent here to sow and  Scatter the Sheep.... Grin

It is hard to believe that someone would identify Holy Orthodoxy with a political position. Shouldnt it be the Body of Christ?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #182 on: August 29, 2010, 07:40:25 PM »

We srbs Love Holy Russia  ,

Then you Srbs love your own dream. "Holy Russia" never existed. The entire history of Russia as a state is the history of lies, treachery, murder, and imperialistic expansion. There certainly have been and there certainly are some wonderful PEOPLE in Russia, but as a political entity, it has always been terrible and it remains terrible.

Please Don't pick on her......Rome has blinded You ,thur the Ukrainian Eastern Catholic Church,thats sowing this extreme Nationalizm amongst you and this hate for russia....You swallowed it Hook Line and sinker...As long As they Have The Orthodox Squabbling amongs themselfs  ,there picking you off one by one.......Wake up Orthodox Ukrainia and see for what it is..... Angry

As I said, I am not an enemy of Russian *PEOPLE* - I just cannot accept the idea, propagated by the current Kremlin leadership and obediently repeated by puppets like Patriarch +KIRILL that Ukraine is a part of a fictitious "Russian World" that is meant to oppose the "decadent and evil West." I lived in the former USSR for 32 years. My parents and grandparents experienced many horrors of living in a country on which the Kremlin stars were shining. That country never changed, it is still the same, an autocracy where human dignity, rights, choices, freedoms are considered "secondary to the eternal principles of the Russian Orthodox Church" (note that in this statement, now the former version, "the ideals of Marxism-Leninism" is simply replaced by "the eternal principles of the Russian Orthodox Church"). I don't want Ukraine to be a province of Russia where there are no free elections, no opposition, no free press, no political parties except those graciously allowed by a certain Orthodox Tzar. Why is this too much to ask?




It's Hard to Believe Your  a Orthodox Christian ...It really is ....All Eastern Holy Orthodoxy One...United Nothing Should be able to seperate us  From it...I hope Your not a Roman Eastern catholic Agent sent here to sow and  Scatter the Sheep.... Grin
Because he hates Russia? (I'm not addressing his protestations of the contrary for now). Plenty of Orthodox do.  The second largest EO Church, Romania (third when Ukraine becomes autocephalous) hold a grudge against Russia (with some reason. They love Serbs, though: my exwife is a rabid Serbophile, too much of a good thing), and the oldest EO patriarchate after the Pentarchy, Georgia, have their issues with Russia past and present as well.  The Phanriotes hate the Russian influence. So one's feelings towards Russia doesn't determine your Orthodoxy, though I am like most Arab Orthodox in being Russophile (as well, like most Arab Orthodox, Serbophile).

Sad to say, most Arab Orthodox would think of themselves as Ukrainophile and not Ukrainophobe for the simple reason that we don't in the main distinguish between the Rus'.

An interesting lesson:
Quote
The Russian government sought recommendations in order to better solidify Russian rule should Galicia be retaken by Russian forces and annexed to Russia once again. Experts' conclusions varied. Aleksi Gerovsky suggested using positive methods of encouraging the Russian language and culture rather than repressive ones against Ukrainian-language institutions, and land and economic reform that would benefit Ukrainian peasants at the expense of Polish landlords and Jewish businessmen whose loyalty the tsarist authorities doubted anyways. It was felt that such reforms would undercut Ukrainophiles' appeals among the peasantry and would engender among Ukrainians a feeling that the Russians were their economic liberators. V. Svatkovskii, a spy based in Switzerland, felt that symbolically uniting Galicia with Ukrainians in the Russian Empire and playing upon anti-Polish sentiments rather than land reform would best gain Galicians' loyalty. Mikhail Tyshkevich, a prominent landowner in Kiev region, felt that making concessions on national rather than land reform issues would be helpful. He suggested that the tsar's son Aleksei be declared "Hetman of Little Russia," that portraits of him wearing a traditional Ukrainian costume be distributed in Ukraine, and that the Russian government ought to publish an official newspaper in the Ukrainian language. While all manifestations of political separatism ought to be stamped out, Ukrainian national aspirations should be supported. In Tyshkevich's words, "punish Mazepa but don't persecute Khmelnytsky." Such concessions on cultural matters, Tyshkevich felt, would create enough loyalty among the people to make economic reofrms unnecessary. After having sent a telegram to the tsar declaring his loyalty to him, Nickolas II responded with a message thanking him, "and also the group of Ukrainian gathered in Switzerland, for the feelings expressed." This had been the first time that the tsar had used the word "Ukrainians" rather than Little Russians.
Drawing on these recommendations, the Russian government determined that in the future while the Russsian language would remain the official Ukrainian would be permitted on a regional basis. The new administration was to composed of strictly military personnel who would not be concerned with religious matters nor have a Russian nationalistic orientation. When easternmost part of Galicia was briefly recaptured by the Russians in 1916, however, the Russians found that the region was economically devastated by the Russian scorched-earth policy during the previous retreat, as well as by the war, and that the population had become quite hostile towards the Russians and loyal towards the Austrians. Ukrainian and Polish schools were allowed to remain open and calls from Russian nationalistic circles within Russia to shut them down were ignored by the occupation authorities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Eastern_Galicia,_1914-1915#Policies_toward_local_nationalities
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 07:46:44 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #183 on: August 30, 2010, 03:25:54 AM »

Russian and serbian Love For One another Goes back Centuries...almost timeless , you might say..... Grin
Yeah right, that's why the only friend of the USSR in Yugoslavia was a Croat (Andrija Hebrang)?
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« Reply #184 on: August 31, 2010, 11:19:50 AM »

Whats the National Religion of Russia?

Imperialism. Control of territories where "loyal" Russian-loving subjects are supposed to live.

Now what's the National Religion of Ukraine?

None that I know of.

Therein lies your answer.

To what question?

The Russians can have Nationalism in their churches because the National Religion of the Country is Orthodoxy. You can't separate the government from the church in this case because the church is national by ACT OF LAW.

Ukraine does not have a national religion. As a result, there should be no Ukrainian nationalism in the Church in Ukraine. Go under the EP and all of your problems will be solved and there will only be the fight between the MP and EP on another front. But of course Ukraine wants to be by herself.......

-Nick
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« Reply #185 on: August 31, 2010, 11:35:11 AM »

I couldn't make it through that video, Stashko. What little I saw made me terribly sad and feel inferior and left out as someone who is neither Russian nor Serbian. I saw little of Christ and true Christianity in that video-just violence, ethnic superiority and guns. How sad. This is the terrible tragedy of nationalism. It neglects to recognize the fact that we are all one in Christ-it matters not of what nationality or ethnicity we are-Christ came to break down all such barriors. Nationalism is very hurtful and vicious in the end, and goes completely against the beautiful Gospel message, the new commandment, that we love one another.

I second.

I cannot watch this video now because my antiquated home computer does not have enough memory. I will watch it tomorrow at work. Right now I'll say though, that there is nationalism and nationalism. There is nationalism of George Washington and nationalism of Gandhi. Is there something wrong about those? Americans are the BIGGEST nationalists in the world. And they have a prosperous country where it is good to live. And I love them for that. Smiley

Exactly what unites the USA as a nation Heorhij? Other than our flag, not much.

-Nick
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Heorhij
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« Reply #186 on: August 31, 2010, 11:42:04 AM »

The Russians can have Nationalism in their churches because the National Religion of the Country is Orthodoxy. You can't separate the government from the church in this case because the church is national by ACT OF LAW.

WHAT??? Where in the constitution of the Russian Federation does it say that Russia is a theocracy?

Enlighten me, please, send me some documental support.
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« Reply #187 on: August 31, 2010, 11:48:52 AM »

Exactly what unites the USA as a nation Heorhij? Other than our flag, not much.
-Nick

What I see around me is that in fact, there aren't many Americans who would:

a) constantly nag that the USA is the worst country in the world and they would be so much happier if the colonists did not revolt in the 1770-s;
b) write petitions asking to re-write American history textbooks, so that the latter would emphasize on evils of the colonists' separatism and on the notion that the spiritual center for every American is London;
c) call bad names those who prefer hamburgers to fish-and-chips, or the word "truck" to the word "lorry,"
d) rally waving banners that say, "Archbishop of Canterbury is OUR Patriarch!"
etc. etc. etc.

The vast majority of Americans consider themselves a nation, distinct from other nations on this globe (partcularly, distinct from Brits). That's "nationalism," in a good sense of this word.

So stop badmouthing those Ukrainians who want to be like you guys.
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« Reply #188 on: August 31, 2010, 12:16:41 PM »

The Russians can have Nationalism in their churches because the National Religion of the Country is Orthodoxy. You can't separate the government from the church in this case because the church is national by ACT OF LAW.

WHAT??? Where in the constitution of the Russian Federation does it say that Russia is a theocracy?

Enlighten me, please, send me some documental support.


An answer to this question after forwarding it by me to Facebook:

"i do not think so, look here http://www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-02.htm and article 14: "1. The Russian Federation is a secular state. No religion may be established as a state or obligatory one.

2. Religious associations shall be separated from the State and shall be equal before the law."
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LizaSymonenko
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« Reply #189 on: August 31, 2010, 12:23:50 PM »


OK. I would like to just say a few words here.

How does it make you feel that because of all your "anti-Ukrainian" feelings you have made IvanMazepa who just joined the forum, leave?

Why is that everyone claims they "don't have a dog in this fight", "aren't Ukrainian or Russian", etc....however, always seem to pull for Russia.

Again, I have nothing against Russia, I do not hate Russia/Russians, or anyone else for that matter.

HOWEVER, why is it that everyone's avatar states which "Church" they belong to - Russian, Polish, Serb, Ethiopian, etc.  Are these not "nations"?  Why is all of that okay, but, God forbid that Ukraine should have a Ukrainian Church.

Why are you all so anti-Ukrainian?  Why is it that if you love Russia, you must hate Ukraine?  Why?

Why is Russia so insecure that it can't imagine letting Ukraine go?

Seriously!

You all attack me and Heorhij so many times as being "not Orthodox"...because we are nationalistic Ukrainians!  Seriously?!?  Where do you get off saying that, when you are Serbian Orthodox?  Romainian Orthodox?  OCAmerica?  Russian Orthodox?  None of you refer to yourselves as "just" Orthodox.

How dare you throw stones! 

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« Reply #190 on: August 31, 2010, 12:34:25 PM »

Bravo Liz, well said.

Just to add to the discussion of what Liz said, here is a quote from the OCA web site of Christ the Saviour Russian Orthodox CHurch in Toronto:

Church School
Sat, 04/17/2010 - 20:58 — admin
Church parish school named after Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna

For many years Saturday Orthodox school at the Christ the Saviour Russian Orthodox Cathedral has been welcoming children 5 to 14 years old. The school makes its primary goal teaching the children in the spirit of Orthodox Faith, love to Russian culture, Russian language and traditions.

There are classes at our school on every Saturday from 10 am to 4 pm. Our teachers are highly qualified and have many years of experience. Children are also offered nutritional home-made lunches prepared fresh at the school kitchen.

The school offers three grades according to the ages of the children: junior, intermediate and senior.

Junior grade

Junior grade is offered to children ages 5-6 and has the following subjects offered:

1. Artistic development
2. Russian language
3. Reading
4. Choir


Intermediate grade

Intermediate grade is offered to children ages 7-9 and has the following subjects offered:

1. God's Law (Bible studies)
2. Russian language
3. Russian literature
4. History of Russia
5. Choir
6. Drama


Senior grade

Senior grade is offered to children ages 10-14 and the following subjects are offered:

1. God's Law (Bible studies)
2. Russian language
3. Russian literature
4. History of Russia
5. Choir
6. Drama

In addition to the above, two elective subjects are offered: Art and Mathematics (for additional fee).
http://www.christthesavioursobor.com/?q=en/node/112

On Christmas, Maslenitsa and Easter the school students prepare special performances.

For additional information please contact the school director Elena Cioppa by phone 905-303-2399 or using our web site Contact Form (Category=Church school).
Русский
(c) Christ the Saviour Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Toronto
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« Reply #191 on: August 31, 2010, 12:35:06 PM »


OK. I would like to just say a few words here.

How does it make you feel that because of all your "anti-Ukrainian" feelings you have made IvanMazepa who just joined the forum, leave?

Why is that everyone claims they "don't have a dog in this fight", "aren't Ukrainian or Russian", etc....however, always seem to pull for Russia.

Again, I have nothing against Russia, I do not hate Russia/Russians, or anyone else for that matter.

HOWEVER, why is it that everyone's avatar states which "Church" they belong to - Russian, Polish, Serb, Ethiopian, etc.  Are these not "nations"?  Why is all of that okay, but, God forbid that Ukraine should have a Ukrainian Church.

Why are you all so anti-Ukrainian?  Why is it that if you love Russia, you must hate Ukraine?  Why?

Why is Russia so insecure that it can't imagine letting Ukraine go?

Seriously!

You all attack me and Heorhij so many times as being "not Orthodox"...because we are nationalistic Ukrainians!  Seriously?!?  Where do you get off saying that, when you are Serbian Orthodox?  Romainian Orthodox?  OCAmerica?  Russian Orthodox?  None of you refer to yourselves as "just" Orthodox.

How dare you throw stones! 



Amen, to that, sister!
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« Reply #192 on: August 31, 2010, 01:18:25 PM »


OK. I would like to just say a few words here.

How does it make you feel that because of all your "anti-Ukrainian" feelings you have made IvanMazepa who just joined the forum, leave?

Why is that everyone claims they "don't have a dog in this fight", "aren't Ukrainian or Russian", etc....however, always seem to pull for Russia.

Again, I have nothing against Russia, I do not hate Russia/Russians, or anyone else for that matter.

HOWEVER, why is it that everyone's avatar states which "Church" they belong to - Russian, Polish, Serb, Ethiopian, etc.  Are these not "nations"?  Why is all of that okay, but, God forbid that Ukraine should have a Ukrainian Church.

Why are you all so anti-Ukrainian?  Why is it that if you love Russia, you must hate Ukraine?  Why?

Why is Russia so insecure that it can't imagine letting Ukraine go?

Seriously!

You all attack me and Heorhij so many times as being "not Orthodox"...because we are nationalistic Ukrainians!  Seriously?!?  Where do you get off saying that, when you are Serbian Orthodox?  Romainian Orthodox?  OCAmerica?  Russian Orthodox?  None of you refer to yourselves as "just" Orthodox.

How dare you throw stones! 



Amen, to that, sister!

Unfortunately, as long as Russia has her oil-and-gas-derived wealth and nuclear weapons, a lot of people will keep throwing stones at Ukraine...
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« Reply #193 on: August 31, 2010, 01:46:40 PM »

Extreme nationalism will bring only division, War death and destruction .......
Serbian Orthodoxy  ,Got its Independence Thur St. Sava,,not Hating It's mother Church Or It's People....
Russia/Ukraine were one country when Holy Orthodoxy was Brought There, your tied by a umbilical cord.....
You Going to have Raise up a Holy Orthodox Saint  to cut the cord...... Extreme Nationalism won't achieve it...........,My Nickels Worth....
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« Reply #194 on: August 31, 2010, 01:48:56 PM »

The Russians can have Nationalism in their churches because the National Religion of the Country is Orthodoxy. You can't separate the government from the church in this case because the church is national by ACT OF LAW.

WHAT??? Where in the constitution of the Russian Federation does it say that Russia is a theocracy?

Enlighten me, please, send me some documental support.



Okay, upon further research you are correct it doesn't not say in the Russian Federation's constitution that Orthodoxy is the National religion, so it is not under act of law. In reading your comment I never said that the Russian Federation was a theocracy. You can have a state supported/sponsored/espoused religion without being a theocracy. With that being said, I would contend that Orthodoxy is essentially a national religion as the church is very active in giving opinions on decisions made in the government at all levels. I could post a number of articles showing how the Orthodox church has influenced Russia's politics and political stands, but I have no doubt that you would simply dismiss them all.

So I retract my statement about Orthodoxy Being a National Religion in Russia however, I reserve to qualify that by saying Orthodoxy is heavily involved in Russian Politics on a number of levels.

-Nick
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« Reply #195 on: August 31, 2010, 01:50:57 PM »

The Russians can have Nationalism in their churches because the National Religion of the Country is Orthodoxy. You can't separate the government from the church in this case because the church is national by ACT OF LAW.

WHAT??? Where in the constitution of the Russian Federation does it say that Russia is a theocracy?

Enlighten me, please, send me some documental support.


An answer to this question after forwarding it by me to Facebook:

"i do not think so, look here http://www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-02.htm and article 14: "1. The Russian Federation is a secular state. No religion may be established as a state or obligatory one.

2. Religious associations shall be separated from the State and shall be equal before the law."


Ok, don't kid yourself, the constitution can say what it wants. The questions is, what happens in practice? Thank you for submitting my query to Facebook, I don't think anyone has ever done that before.

-nick
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« Reply #196 on: August 31, 2010, 01:53:37 PM »

Exactly what unites the USA as a nation Heorhij? Other than our flag, not much.
-Nick

What I see around me is that in fact, there aren't many Americans who would:

a) constantly nag that the USA is the worst country in the world and they would be so much happier if the colonists did not revolt in the 1770-s;
b) write petitions asking to re-write American history textbooks, so that the latter would emphasize on evils of the colonists' separatism and on the notion that the spiritual center for every American is London;
c) call bad names those who prefer hamburgers to fish-and-chips, or the word "truck" to the word "lorry,"
d) rally waving banners that say, "Archbishop of Canterbury is OUR Patriarch!"
etc. etc. etc.

The vast majority of Americans consider themselves a nation, distinct from other nations on this globe (partcularly, distinct from Brits). That's "nationalism," in a good sense of this word.

So stop badmouthing those Ukrainians who want to be like you guys.

So again, I ask what ties the US together as a Nation? There is nothing you can point to that differentiates an American from someone in any other country around the world. As far as your list of what Americans would and would not do.... So what?

I am not badmouthing Ukrainians. I'm trying to show you that you people are so wound up on your Nationalistic identity that you are putting it on the church and that is what is wrong with your point of view. Grow up and put your nationalism aside for the sake of your faith.

-nick
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« Reply #197 on: August 31, 2010, 02:06:27 PM »

Nick, why is it OK for the Russians to have a Russian orthodox Church and the Greeks to have a Greek Orthodox Church and the Romanians to have a Romanian Orthodox Church, but you think Ukrainians are nationalistic?Huh??

St. Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church (OCA)

Parish Background

In July 1980, several individuals had the desire to plant a Romanian Orthodox Church in Queens, NY, with Fr N Barsan as pastor. Fr Barsan was appointed by Archbishop Victorin, the bishop of the Romanian Orthodox Missionary Archdiocese of America.

In 1981, the parish and priest moved to the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America. In 1982, the Romanian community bought a small factory and modified it into a church. In 1987, Fr Barsan retired, and Bishop Nathaniel named as pastor Fr Casian Fetea.

Because the community became so big, the necessity to have a bigger church arose. Thus, since 1994 we are constructing a new building. Right now we have a bigger church with two levels: the lower level is the community room, and the upper level is the church, with a style and atmosphere reminiscent of the old churches in Romania. Under the guidance of our energetic pastor, Fr Casian Fetea, the faithful members of St Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church are trying to finish our church.

If you would like to help us finish our church, you may make a donation to: St Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church, 42-14 74th St, Elmhurst, NY 11373. We would be extremely grateful for your donation. We will assure you that any money sent will help us finish our construction. And if no money can be sent, please come, visit our church and pray for us.

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-RO-QUESMC

Romanian Fall Festival

hosted by St. Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church (42-14 74th St.)
 

will be held on Saturday, September 18 from 11 am - 8pm. Celebration will begin
with a Service of Thanksgiving (molieben)  in the church at 10 am.

The area of 74th Street, between 43rd & Woodside Avenues, will be closed to auto
traffic for this event.

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« Reply #198 on: August 31, 2010, 02:33:50 PM »



I am not badmouthing Ukrainians. I'm trying to show you that you people are so wound up on your Nationalistic identity that you are putting it on the church and that is what is wrong with your point of view. Grow up and put your nationalism aside for the sake of your faith.

-nick

Grow up and put your love of Russia aside for the sake of your own faith.
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« Reply #199 on: August 31, 2010, 02:57:41 PM »

The Russians can have Nationalism in their churches because the National Religion of the Country is Orthodoxy. You can't separate the government from the church in this case because the church is national by ACT OF LAW.

WHAT??? Where in the constitution of the Russian Federation does it say that Russia is a theocracy?

Enlighten me, please, send me some documental support.



Okay, upon further research you are correct it doesn't not say in the Russian Federation's constitution that Orthodoxy is the National religion, so it is not under act of law. In reading your comment I never said that the Russian Federation was a theocracy. You can have a state supported/sponsored/espoused religion without being a theocracy. With that being said, I would contend that Orthodoxy is essentially a national religion as the church is very active in giving opinions on decisions made in the government at all levels. I could post a number of articles showing how the Orthodox church has influenced Russia's politics and political stands, but I have no doubt that you would simply dismiss them all.

So I retract my statement about Orthodoxy Being a National Religion in Russia however, I reserve to qualify that by saying Orthodoxy is heavily involved in Russian Politics on a number of levels.

-Nick

Thank you, Nick. Just one more comment from Oleg Voskresensky, a Russian scholar who is a FB friend of mine (mde by him on Facebook):

"De facto: the Russian Ministry of Education is piloting a five-module class for the 4th and 5th Grades of the public schools in 19 regions of Russia: Intro to the Orthodox Culture, Intro to the Judaic Culture, Intro to the Buddhist Culture, Intro to the Islamic Culture and Intro to the World Religions' Culture. Parents are to pick one for their kid. So far, the distribution was fairly even and in accordance with the local population religious makup. Just as Michael said, predominantly Orthodox but legally secular."
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« Reply #200 on: August 31, 2010, 03:00:52 PM »

So again, I ask what ties the US together as a Nation? There is nothing you can point to that differentiates an American from someone in any other country around the world. As far as your list of what Americans would and would not do.... So what?

Well, Ukrainians who are perceived as "nationalists" (like me) are constantly told to NOT do it. There is this saying, "when a Russian loves Russia, he is a patriot (which is normal). But when a Ukrainian loves Ukraine, he is a "nationalist "(which is evil)."

Americans are not told that it is eviil to love their country. They love it (critical to ot as many of them are - they still love it, live in it, appreciate its history, uniqueness, etc.). That unites them. Pick any American and he/she will most likely appreciate his nation as unique, worthy of existence and good for him/her to be a part of.
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« Reply #201 on: August 31, 2010, 03:20:10 PM »

Apart from stashko I haven't notice any anti-Ukrainians taking part in this discussion. It's funny to see a Serb trying to explain that nationalism is not a good thing.

I'll try to explain my POV.

I consider Ukraine as a separate country and the Ukrainians as distinct people from Russians. I am also the last person that can be called a Russophile as I generally don't like Russian language/culture etc. I don't have an opinion whether there should be an autocephalous Church but if most Ukrainians want to have one - they should have it. It's not my problem.

IMO there are some things that won't help the Ukrainians having their autocephalous Church: guerrilla ecclesiology, bringing to light 400-year-old forgotten documents, accusing of chauvinism/KGB membership/unpatriotism, sieging Churches and politicians' engagement. I know some of this ways were used in the past (eg. in Bulgaria) but it is not proper to repeat bad things from history. You don't rob a bank even if your neighbour did that once and he got some money.

Inferiority complex also doesn't help much. Nothing can be achieved with crying, stating how discriminated someone is. No one likes crybabies. Take things in your own hands but in appropriate way. You weren't the only one harmed by history.

I think that the petition for autocephaly should come from the Holy Synod of UOC (don't ask me which one, please). You say that the UOC members don't won't to be autocephalous. So wait 30 years and maybe then they will like to. Allow them to decide about their fate.
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« Reply #202 on: August 31, 2010, 03:50:58 PM »

Apart from stashko I haven't notice any anti-Ukrainians taking part in this discussion. It's funny to see a Serb trying to explain that nationalism is not a good thing.

I'll try to explain my POV.

I consider Ukraine as a separate country and the Ukrainians as distinct people from Russians. I am also the last person that can be called a Russophile as I generally don't like Russian language/culture etc. I don't have an opinion whether there should be an autocephalous Church but if most Ukrainians want to have one - they should have it. It's not my problem.

IMO there are some things that won't help the Ukrainians having their autocephalous Church: guerrilla ecclesiology, bringing to light 400-year-old forgotten documents, accusing of chauvinism/KGB membership/unpatriotism, sieging Churches and politicians' engagement. I know some of this ways were used in the past (eg. in Bulgaria) but it is not proper to repeat bad things from history. You don't rob a bank even if your neighbour did that once and he got some money.

Inferiority complex also doesn't help much. Nothing can be achieved with crying, stating how discriminated someone is. No one likes crybabies. Take things in your own hands but in appropriate way. You weren't the only one harmed by history.

I think that the petition for autocephaly should come from the Holy Synod of UOC (don't ask me which one, please). You say that the UOC members don't won't to be autocephalous. So wait 30 years and maybe then they will like to. Allow them to decide about their fate.

What about those Ukrainians who are Orthodox, patriotic, and not UOC members? Thirty years is a long time...
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« Reply #203 on: August 31, 2010, 03:58:50 PM »


UOC of USA is the best UOC!   Wink
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« Reply #204 on: August 31, 2010, 04:10:42 PM »

What about those Ukrainians who are Orthodox, patriotic, and not UOC members? Thirty years is a long time...

They have decided. They chose the imitation of autocephaly to the Christian patience. They moved out their parents' home and I don't think they should be asked how to arrange the furniture.
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« Reply #205 on: August 31, 2010, 04:16:50 PM »

What about those Ukrainians who are Orthodox, patriotic, and not UOC members? Thirty years is a long time...

They have decided. They chose the imitation of autocephaly to the Christian patience. They moved out their parents' home and I don't think they should be asked how to arrange the furniture.

But they did exactly what the Moscow jurisdiction did several centuries ago. They, too, moved out; they were granted autocephaly only 141 years later...
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« Reply #206 on: August 31, 2010, 04:17:22 PM »


UOC of USA is the best UOC!   Wink

Unfortunately, not for those Ukrainians who live in Ukraine...
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« Reply #207 on: August 31, 2010, 04:44:31 PM »

What about those Ukrainians who are Orthodox, patriotic, and not UOC members? Thirty years is a long time...

They have decided. They chose the imitation of autocephaly to the Christian patience. They moved out their parents' home and I don't think they should be asked how to arrange the furniture.

But they did exactly what the Moscow jurisdiction did several centuries ago. They, too, moved out; they were granted autocephaly only 141 years later...

I'll repeat: Repeating bad things from the past leads to nowhere. People can learn from mistakes (both their own, and those of strangers).
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« Reply #208 on: August 31, 2010, 04:47:17 PM »

Besides, the UOCUSA is NOT an independent Ukrainian church. The UOCUSA is under Constantinople, just as the UOCMP is under Moscow.
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« Reply #209 on: August 31, 2010, 05:07:44 PM »

What about those Ukrainians who are Orthodox, patriotic, and not UOC members? Thirty years is a long time...

They have decided. They chose the imitation of autocephaly to the Christian patience. They moved out their parents' home and I don't think they should be asked how to arrange the furniture.

But they did exactly what the Moscow jurisdiction did several centuries ago. They, too, moved out; they were granted autocephaly only 141 years later...

I'll repeat: Repeating bad things from the past leads to nowhere. People can learn from mistakes (both their own, and those of strangers).

So you believe Muscovites should have waited for Constantinople to grant them autocephaly and done what? Pray in Greek? Participate in the Council of Florence? Smiley
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« Reply #210 on: August 31, 2010, 05:09:27 PM »

Besides, the UOCUSA is NOT an independent Ukrainian church. The UOCUSA is under Constantinople, just as the UOCMP is under Moscow.

But it is still Ukrainian as far as the respect for Ukraine as a distinct nation is concerned. I cannot imagine UOC-USA clergy leading a rally of their flock with slogans, "Our spiritual center is in Istanbul! Bartholomew I is OUR Patriarch! Down with Ukrainian nationalism!" Smiley
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« Reply #211 on: August 31, 2010, 05:10:43 PM »



I am not badmouthing Ukrainians. I'm trying to show you that you people are so wound up on your Nationalistic identity that you are putting it on the church and that is what is wrong with your point of view. Grow up and put your nationalism aside for the sake of your faith.

-nick

Grow up and put your love of Russia aside for the sake of your own faith.

I actually do not have any love for Russia. However, I am tired of seeing the blatant pro Ukraine anti-Russia propaganda on these threads. I am Carpatho-Russian by heritage, and as I stated many times I feel 1 Million times more Russian than I do Ukrainian, however I had someone tell me that I am actually mistaken and really I'm just Ukrainian in denial. Is it any wonder that we have to question when people start putting Ukraine before the church?

-Nick
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« Reply #212 on: August 31, 2010, 05:12:57 PM »

Nick, why is it OK for the Russians to have a Russian orthodox Church and the Greeks to have a Greek Orthodox Church and the Romanians to have a Romanian Orthodox Church, but you think Ukrainians are nationalistic?Huh??

St. Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church (OCA)

Parish Background

In July 1980, several individuals had the desire to plant a Romanian Orthodox Church in Queens, NY, with Fr N Barsan as pastor. Fr Barsan was appointed by Archbishop Victorin, the bishop of the Romanian Orthodox Missionary Archdiocese of America.

In 1981, the parish and priest moved to the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America. In 1982, the Romanian community bought a small factory and modified it into a church. In 1987, Fr Barsan retired, and Bishop Nathaniel named as pastor Fr Casian Fetea.

Because the community became so big, the necessity to have a bigger church arose. Thus, since 1994 we are constructing a new building. Right now we have a bigger church with two levels: the lower level is the community room, and the upper level is the church, with a style and atmosphere reminiscent of the old churches in Romania. Under the guidance of our energetic pastor, Fr Casian Fetea, the faithful members of St Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church are trying to finish our church.

If you would like to help us finish our church, you may make a donation to: St Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church, 42-14 74th St, Elmhurst, NY 11373. We would be extremely grateful for your donation. We will assure you that any money sent will help us finish our construction. And if no money can be sent, please come, visit our church and pray for us.

http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-RO-QUESMC

Romanian Fall Festival

hosted by St. Mary's Romanian Orthodox Church (42-14 74th St.)
 

will be held on Saturday, September 18 from 11 am - 8pm. Celebration will begin
with a Service of Thanksgiving (molieben)  in the church at 10 am.

The area of 74th Street, between 43rd & Woodside Avenues, will be closed to auto
traffic for this event.



You can have a church with an ethnic name and identity but the problem is what is more important? The Ethnic Identity or the Church?

You can have a Greek orthodox church that has their Greek fest and bakes their baklava and a Russian church which makes their Haloupki and Pierogi. But when events like this become more important than the faith there is something absolutely wrong with that.

-Nick
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« Reply #213 on: August 31, 2010, 05:17:20 PM »



Just as a matter of proper terminology at least for this thread:

Russophile = love of russia with philia being a love of something  (Generally Positive)

Russophobe = fear of russia with phobia being a fear of something (Generally Negative)

-Nick
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« Reply #214 on: August 31, 2010, 05:19:58 PM »

So you believe Muscovites should have waited for Constantinople to grant them autocephaly and done what? Pray in Greek? Participate in the Council of Florence? Smiley

Is Moscow in the same situation now that such harsh actions need to be taken?
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« Reply #215 on: August 31, 2010, 05:20:32 PM »

Nick,  sorry to hear about your confusion as to your nationality.  As a Ukrainian, I would never have told you that you were Ukrainian or Russian.  You are whatever you think you are.

I am concerned only with those individuals who know they are Ukrainian and wish to have their own Church.

And as for the anti-Russian sentiment on this forum....get real!

Nobody is anti-Russian, we are just pro-Ukrainian.

...And don't you EVER accuse me of putting my nationality before my Faith!

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« Reply #216 on: August 31, 2010, 05:25:25 PM »

Besides, the UOCUSA is NOT an independent Ukrainian church. The UOCUSA is under Constantinople, just as the UOCMP is under Moscow.

But it is still Ukrainian as far as the respect for Ukraine as a distinct nation is concerned. I cannot imagine UOC-USA clergy leading a rally of their flock with slogans, "Our spiritual center is in Istanbul! Bartholomew I is OUR Patriarch! Down with Ukrainian nationalism!" Smiley
I believe that UOC USA does say that their spiritual center is Instanbul and Bartholomew I is our Patriarch. Please see the following link...http://www.patriarchate.org/patriarchate/hierarchy-of-the-throne/titular-metropolitans/constantine-of-irinoupolis?searched=Constantine&advsearch=oneword&highlight=ajaxSearch_highlight+ajaxSearch_highlight1
http://www.patriarchate.org/patriarchate/hierarchy-of-the-throne/titular-metropolitans/constantine-of-irinoupolis?searched=Constantine&advsearch=oneword&highlight=ajaxSearch_highlight+ajaxSearch_highlight1

Bottom Line: All of the bishops listed here are bishops of a foreign church, under foreign rule, who choose to co-celebrate with russian, UOC-MP, OCA, ROCOR and other clergy rather than serve with ukrainian clergy (UAOC, UOC-KP). They are bishops who serve a patriarch that has made a deal with Moscow to not resolve t...he issues in Ukraine but let them fester. We do not need permission to exist. Autocephaly is not given it is taken as was the case in Russia, Bulgaria etc.

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« Reply #217 on: August 31, 2010, 05:31:54 PM »

So you believe Muscovites should have waited for Constantinople to grant them autocephaly and done what? Pray in Greek? Participate in the Council of Florence? Smiley

Is Moscow in the same situation now that such harsh actions need to be taken?

Ukrainians are in a harsh situation now, just like Muscovites were in a harsh situation back then.
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« Reply #218 on: August 31, 2010, 05:32:53 PM »

Apart from stashko I haven't notice any anti-Ukrainians taking part in this discussion. It's funny to see a Serb trying to explain that nationalism is not a good thing.

I'll try to explain my POV.

I consider Ukraine as a separate country and the Ukrainians as distinct people from Russians. I am also the last person that can be called a Russophile as I generally don't like Russian language/culture etc. I don't have an opinion whether there should be an autocephalous Church but if most Ukrainians want to have one - they should have it. It's not my problem.

IMO there are some things that won't help the Ukrainians having their autocephalous Church: guerrilla ecclesiology, bringing to light 400-year-old forgotten documents, accusing of chauvinism/KGB membership/unpatriotism, sieging Churches and politicians' engagement. I know some of this ways were used in the past (eg. in Bulgaria) but it is not proper to repeat bad things from history. You don't rob a bank even if your neighbour did that once and he got some money.

Inferiority complex also doesn't help much. Nothing can be achieved with crying, stating how discriminated someone is. No one likes crybabies. Take things in your own hands but in appropriate way. You weren't the only one harmed by history.

I think that the petition for autocephaly should come from the Holy Synod of UOC (don't ask me which one, please). You say that the UOC members don't won't to be autocephalous. So wait 30 years and maybe then they will like to. Allow them to decide about their fate.
Polish were Always Biased toward Holy Russia what else is new,,,I love  Ukraine and its people ,what i don't like is the division in Holy Orthodoxy....and the Eastern Catholics Taking advantage of it .with all the infighting..Wake Up... Grin
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 05:37:05 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #219 on: August 31, 2010, 05:38:16 PM »

Apart from stashko I haven't notice any anti-Ukrainians taking part in this discussion. It's funny to see a Serb trying to explain that nationalism is not a good thing.

I'll try to explain my POV.

I consider Ukraine as a separate country and the Ukrainians as distinct people from Russians. I am also the last person that can be called a Russophile as I generally don't like Russian language/culture etc. I don't have an opinion whether there should be an autocephalous Church but if most Ukrainians want to have one - they should have it. It's not my problem.

IMO there are some things that won't help the Ukrainians having their autocephalous Church: guerrilla ecclesiology, bringing to light 400-year-old forgotten documents, accusing of chauvinism/KGB membership/unpatriotism, sieging Churches and politicians' engagement. I know some of this ways were used in the past (eg. in Bulgaria) but it is not proper to repeat bad things from history. You don't rob a bank even if your neighbour did that once and he got some money.

Inferiority complex also doesn't help much. Nothing can be achieved with crying, stating how discriminated someone is. No one likes crybabies. Take things in your own hands but in appropriate way. You weren't the only one harmed by history.

I think that the petition for autocephaly should come from the Holy Synod of UOC (don't ask me which one, please). You say that the UOC members don't won't to be autocephalous. So wait 30 years and maybe then they will like to. Allow them to decide about their fate.
Polish were Always Biased toward Holy Russia what else is new,,,I love the Ukraine and its people ,what i don't like is the division in Holy Orthodoxy....and the Eastern Catholics Taking advantage of it .with all the infighting..Wake Up... Grin
I don't see a problem with the eastern Catholics in Ukraine the way that some of the other members on this forum do. My understanding is there are many more baptists and evangelical converts in Ukraine than there are Eastern Catholic converts. Hehorij, have you seen anything to that effect during your visit?
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« Reply #220 on: August 31, 2010, 05:41:20 PM »

And as for the anti-Russian sentiment on this forum....get real!

I, for one, actually have a very strong PRO-Russian sentiment. Russian and Ukrainian are my two equally first languages (as I was learning to talk as an infant, I heard Russian from my parents and Ukrainian from my grandfather). Russian literature is my tremendous joy: Tolstoy is still my number one favorite author in the world. I love the music of Musorgsky and Rakhmaninov, paintings of Kustodiev and Serebryakova, poetry of Blok, Gumilev, Akhmatova, Tsvetaeva, young Mayakovsky, Pasternak. I have several old friends who are ethnic Russians and who live in Moscow. On this forum, I love to communicate with Mikhail Smirnov and Vladik, both of them posters from Russia. There is not one Russophobe bone in my body. What I dislike is not Russia - it is the perennial imperialism of her rulers.

Nobody is anti-Russian, we are just pro-Ukrainian.

Exactly!

...And don't you EVER accuse me of putting my nationality before my Faith!

Personally, I find these arguments, "you put your nationality in front of your faith," absolutely meaningless. We (pani Liza, Cossack, IvanMazepa, me) just happen to HAVE a sense of ethnic Ukrainian identity and we do not see any reason why this identity must be abandoned or suppressed. Again, for a Russian Orthodox, it's OK to be not "just" Orthodox but a Russian Orthodox. Why cannot a Ukrainian Orthodox be a Ukrainian Orthodox? If I love my daughter, does it mean that I am putting this love ahead of my love for my wife or mother? Smiley))
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« Reply #221 on: August 31, 2010, 05:46:03 PM »

Apart from stashko I haven't notice any anti-Ukrainians taking part in this discussion. It's funny to see a Serb trying to explain that nationalism is not a good thing.

I'll try to explain my POV.

I consider Ukraine as a separate country and the Ukrainians as distinct people from Russians. I am also the last person that can be called a Russophile as I generally don't like Russian language/culture etc. I don't have an opinion whether there should be an autocephalous Church but if most Ukrainians want to have one - they should have it. It's not my problem.

IMO there are some things that won't help the Ukrainians having their autocephalous Church: guerrilla ecclesiology, bringing to light 400-year-old forgotten documents, accusing of chauvinism/KGB membership/unpatriotism, sieging Churches and politicians' engagement. I know some of this ways were used in the past (eg. in Bulgaria) but it is not proper to repeat bad things from history. You don't rob a bank even if your neighbour did that once and he got some money.

Inferiority complex also doesn't help much. Nothing can be achieved with crying, stating how discriminated someone is. No one likes crybabies. Take things in your own hands but in appropriate way. You weren't the only one harmed by history.

I think that the petition for autocephaly should come from the Holy Synod of UOC (don't ask me which one, please). You say that the UOC members don't won't to be autocephalous. So wait 30 years and maybe then they will like to. Allow them to decide about their fate.
Polish were Always Biased toward Holy Russia what else is new,,,I love the Ukraine and its people ,what i don't like is the division in Holy Orthodoxy....and the Eastern Catholics Taking advantage of it .with all the infighting..Wake Up... Grin
I don't see a problem with the eastern Catholics in Ukraine the way that some of the other members on this forum do. My understanding is there are many more baptists and evangelical converts in Ukraine than there are Eastern Catholic converts. Hehorij, have you seen anything to that effect during your visit?
When Ukrainian Orthodox becomes a  minority in there own country,surrounded by eastern Catholics loyal to rome are you truly going to  say  you don't see it....even then... Grin
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« Reply #222 on: August 31, 2010, 06:00:55 PM »

When Ukrainian Orthodox becomes a  minority in there own country,surrounded by eastern Catholics loyal to rome are you truly going to  say  you don't see it....even then... Grin

Stashko, first of all, Eastern Rite Catholics are in the majority only in some regions of Ukraine that aren't very big (L'viv, Ternopil' and Ivano-Frankivs'k oblasts). Even there the margin is rather thin, it's not an overwhelming majority. In other areas, even in Western Ukraine, the number of Orthodox parishes and faithful is much bigger than the number of Eastern Rite Catholic parishes and faithful. Second, perhaps some 99% of Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholics will have no idea what you are talking about when you tell them that they are "loyal to Rome."
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« Reply #223 on: August 31, 2010, 06:01:37 PM »

Besides, the UOCUSA is NOT an independent Ukrainian church. The UOCUSA is under Constantinople, just as the UOCMP is under Moscow.

But it is still Ukrainian as far as the respect for Ukraine as a distinct nation is concerned. I cannot imagine UOC-USA clergy leading a rally of their flock with slogans, "Our spiritual center is in Istanbul! Bartholomew I is OUR Patriarch! Down with Ukrainian nationalism!" Smiley
I believe that UOC USA does say that their spiritual center is Instanbul and Bartholomew I is our Patriarch. Please see the following link...http://www.patriarchate.org/patriarchate/hierarchy-of-the-throne/titular-metropolitans/constantine-of-irinoupolis?searched=Constantine&advsearch=oneword&highlight=ajaxSearch_highlight+ajaxSearch_highlight1
http://www.patriarchate.org/patriarchate/hierarchy-of-the-throne/titular-metropolitans/constantine-of-irinoupolis?searched=Constantine&advsearch=oneword&highlight=ajaxSearch_highlight+ajaxSearch_highlight1

Bottom Line: All of the bishops listed here are bishops of a foreign church, under foreign rule, who choose to co-celebrate with russian, UOC-MP, OCA, ROCOR and other clergy rather than serve with ukrainian clergy (UAOC, UOC-KP). They are bishops who serve a patriarch that has made a deal with Moscow to not resolve t...he issues in Ukraine but let them fester. We do not need permission to exist. Autocephaly is not given it is taken as was the case in Russia, Bulgaria etc.
When Moscow falls into heresy, then you can make that argument.  It doesn't look like that is going to happen any time soon.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
stashko
Protokentarchos
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Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
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« Reply #224 on: August 31, 2010, 06:05:29 PM »

Orthodox Ukraines ,Don't Hate The Russian Orthodox Church or your Russian Orthodox Brothers and Sisters in the Faith...If You Must Hate, Hate the Ukrainian Eastern Catholics that are working against Holy Orthodoxy and its demise.......... police
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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