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Author Topic: "An Assault on Our Soul"  (Read 16058 times) Average Rating: 0
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IvanMazepa
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« Reply #90 on: August 26, 2010, 08:31:33 PM »

ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?


Really, I do not understand how people completely underlated to the question have so much contempt for Ukraine...

Yes.  Me too. Statements by some here like Romanians want Bukovyna "back" (sic) are not only factually incorrect but seem only to be aimed at denigrating Ukrainians and/or the Ukrainian state.  They are also absolutely unrelated to the OP as well.  Ukrainians, like many European nations in Eastern Europe, had to undergo "nation-building" so to speak without benefit of a state for some time.  This is true for many nations in Eastern Europe.  It doesn't matter to some however.  I am kinda still new here but am slightly surprised at the animosity of some posters to things Ukrainian, and find it hard to reconcile with Christian virtue or love.
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ialmisry
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #91 on: August 26, 2010, 08:37:00 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

Soo the Bolsheviks didn't storm the Winter Palace. I'm sure both the Imperial family and Kerensky will be glad to hear that.
Quote
"Like a black river, filling all the street...we poured through the Red Arch."

John Reed was born to privilege in Oregon. He attended Harvard and after graduating in 1910, pursued a carrier in journalism. His coverage of labor strikes in New Jersey and the Mexican Revolution turned his political leanings to the left. In 1917 he traveled to Russia to cover the turmoil there. He immediately embraced the Bolshevik cause and was welcomed into the movement. John Reed died of typhus in Moscow on October 20, 1920 at age 33. His body lay in state and was buried in Red Square. The day of his funeral was declared a national holiday.


He joined the assault on the Winter Palace and later wrote of his experience.  Once in power, the Bolsheviks revised the Russian calendar, substituting the older Julian calendar with the Gregorian calendar used by most European countries. Under this new calendar, the date of the assault on the Winter Palace changed from October 25 to November 6.   We join his story as the insurrectionist mob makes its way down the darkened streets of St. Petersburg:

"Like a black river, filling all the street, without song or cheer we poured through the Red Arch, where the man just ahead of me said in a low voice: ‘Look out, comrades! Don't trust them. They will fire, surely!’ In the open we began to run, stooping low and bunching together, and jammed up suddenly behind the pedestal of the Alexander Column.

‘How many of you did they kill?’ I asked. ‘I don't know. About ten.’

After a few minutes huddling there, some hundreds of men, the army seemed reassured and without any orders suddenly began again to flow forward. By this time, in the light that streamed out of all the Winter Palace windows, I could see that the first two or three hundred men were Red Guards, with only a few scattered soldiers. Over the barricade of firewood we clambered, and leaping down inside gave a triumphant shout as we stumbled on a heap of rifles thrown down the yunkers who had stood there.

On both sides of the main gateway the doors stood wide open, light streamed out. and from the huge pile came not the slightest sound. carried along by the eager wave of men we were swept into the right hand entrance, opening into a great bare vaulted room, the cellar of the East wing, from which issued a maze of corridors and stair-cases. A number of huge packing cases stood about, and upon these the Red Guards -and soldiers fell furiously, battering them open with the butts of their rifles, and pulling out carpets, curtains, linen, porcelain plates, glassware.

One man went strutting around with a bronze clock perched on his shoulder; another found a plume of ostrich feathers, which he stuck in his hat. The looting was just beginning when somebody cried, ‘Comrades! Don't touch anything! Don't take anything! This is the property of the People!’ Immediately twenty voices were crying, ‘Stop! Put everything back! Don't take anything! Property of the People!’ Many hands dragged the spoilers down. Damask and tapestry were snatched from the arms of those who had them; two men took away the bronze clock. Roughly and hastily the things were crammed back in their cases, and self-appointed sentinels stood guard. It was all utterly spontaneous. Through corridors and up stair-cases the cry could be heard growing fainter and fainter in the distance, ‘Revolutionary discipline! Property of the People.’

We crossed back over to the left entrance, in the West wing. There order was also being established. ‘Clear the Palace!’ bawled a Red Guard, sticking his head through an inner door. ‘Come, comrades, let's show that we're not thieves and bandits. Everybody out of the Palace except, the Commissars, until we get sentries posted.’

Two Red Guards, a soldier and an officer, stood with revolvers in their hands. Another soldier sat at a table behind them, with pen and paper. Shouts of ‘All out! All out!’ were heard far and near within, and the Army began to pour through the door, jostling, expostulating, arguing. As each man appeared he was seized by the self-appointed committee, who went through his pockets and looked under his coat. Everything that was plainly not his property was taken away, the man at the table noted it on his paper, and it was carried into a little room.

...Yunkers came out, in bunches of three or four. The committee seized upon them with an excess of zeal, accompanying the search with remarks like, ‘Ah, Provocators! Kornilovists! Counter-revolutionists! Murderers of the People!’ But there was no violence done, although the yunkers were terrified. They too had their pockets full of small plunder. It waa carefully noted down by the scribe, and piled in the little room. The yunkers were disarmed. ‘Now, will you take up arms against the People any more?’ demanded clamouring voices.

"No," answered the yunkers, one by one. Whereupon they were allowed to go free.

...In the meanwhile unrebuked we walked into the Palace. There was still a great deal of coming and going, of exploring new - found apartments in the vast edifice, of searching for hidden garrisons of yunkers which did not exist. We went upstairs and wandered through room after room.

..The old Palace servants in their blue and red and gold uniforms stood nervously about, from force of habit repeating, ‘You can't go in there, harm! It is forbidden.’ We penetrated at length to the gold and malachite chamber with crimson brocade hangings where the Ministers had been in session all that day and night and where the shveitzari had betrayed them to the Red Guards. The long table covered with green baize was just as they had left it, under arrest. Before each empty seat was pen and ink and paper; the papers were scribbled over with beginnings of plans of action, rough drafts of proclamations and manifestos. Most of these were scratched out, as their futility became evident, and the rest of the sheet covered with absent-minded geometrical designs, as the writers sat despondently listening while Minister after Minister proposed chimerical schemes. I took one of these scribbled pages, in the h-and writing of Konovalov, which read, ‘The Provisional Government appeals to all classes to support the Provisional Government.’

...we didn't notice a change in the attitude of the soldiers and Red Guards around us. As we strolled from room to room a small group followed us, until by the time we reached the great picture gallery where we had spent the afternoon with the yunkers, about a hundred men surged in after us. One giant of a soldier stood in our path, his face dark with sullen suspicion.

.‘Who are you?’ he growled. ‘What are you doing here?’ The others massed slowly around, staring and beginning to mutter. ‘Provocatori’I heard somebody say. ‘'Looters !’ I produced our passes from the Military Revolutionary Committee. The soldier took them gingerly, turned them upside down and looked at them without comprehension. Evidently he could not read. He handed them back and spat on the floor. ‘Bumagi! Papers!’ said he with contempt. The mass slowly began to close in, like wild cattle around a cowpuncher on foot. Over their heads I caught sight of an officer, looking helpless, and shouted to him. He made for us shouldering his way through.

'I'm the Commissar,' he said to me. ‘Who are you? What is it?’ The others held back, waiting. I produced the papers.

'You are foreigners?' he rapidly asked in French. 'It is very dangerous.' Then he turned to the mob, holding up our documents. ‘Comrades!’ he cried. 'These people are foreign comrades from America. They have come here to be able to tell their countrymen about the bravery and the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army!'

'How do you know that?' replied the big soldier.'‘I tell you they are provocators! They say they came here to observe the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army, but they have been wandering freely through the Palace, and how do we know they haven't got their pockets full of loot?'

'Pravilno!' snarled the others, pressing forward.

'Comrades! Comrades!' appealed the officer, sweat standing out on his forehead. ‘I am Commissar of the Military Revolutionary Committee. Do you trust me? Well, I tell you that these passes are signed with the same names that are signed to my pass!’

He led us down through the Palace and out through a door opening onto the Neva quay, before which stood the usual committee going through pockets. ‘You have narrowly escaped,’ he kept muttering, wiping his face.

References:
   This eyewitness account appears in: Reed, John, Ten Days That Shook the World (1935); Salisbury, Harrison, Black night, white snow: Russia's Revolutions 1905-1917 (1977).

How To Cite This Article:
"The Bolsheviks Storm the Winter Palace, 1917" EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2006).
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/bolshevik.htm

Maybe you prefer photos, though you can't see their party cards, this is identified as Bolshevik volunteers

Maybe you can interpret this
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #92 on: August 26, 2010, 08:44:22 PM »

ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?

I will, once I get back, Lord willing.  For one thing, Filoret was defrocked by the Holy Synod of Moscow, and all Orthodox Churches recognize it.

In the meantime, I'll ask again, what is the basis of your statement "On what basis would you compare Ukraine to France or Australia?" How is Moscow's jurisdiction in France or in Australia like Moscow's jurisdiction over Ukraine?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 08:47:05 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
IvanMazepa
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« Reply #93 on: August 26, 2010, 08:57:18 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

Soo the Bolsheviks didn't storm the Winter Palace. I'm sure both the Imperial family and Kerensky will be glad to hear that.
Quote
"Like a black river, filling all the street...we poured through the Red Arch."

John Reed was born to privilege in Oregon. He attended Harvard and after graduating in 1910, pursued a carrier in journalism. His coverage of labor strikes in New Jersey and the Mexican Revolution turned his political leanings to the left. In 1917 he traveled to Russia to cover the turmoil there. He immediately embraced the Bolshevik cause and was welcomed into the movement. John Reed died of typhus in Moscow on October 20, 1920 at age 33. His body lay in state and was buried in Red Square. The day of his funeral was declared a national holiday.


He joined the assault on the Winter Palace and later wrote of his experience.  Once in power, the Bolsheviks revised the Russian calendar, substituting the older Julian calendar with the Gregorian calendar used by most European countries. Under this new calendar, the date of the assault on the Winter Palace changed from October 25 to November 6.   We join his story as the insurrectionist mob makes its way down the darkened streets of St. Petersburg:

"Like a black river, filling all the street, without song or cheer we poured through the Red Arch, where the man just ahead of me said in a low voice: ‘Look out, comrades! Don't trust them. They will fire, surely!’ In the open we began to run, stooping low and bunching together, and jammed up suddenly behind the pedestal of the Alexander Column.

‘How many of you did they kill?’ I asked. ‘I don't know. About ten.’

After a few minutes huddling there, some hundreds of men, the army seemed reassured and without any orders suddenly began again to flow forward. By this time, in the light that streamed out of all the Winter Palace windows, I could see that the first two or three hundred men were Red Guards, with only a few scattered soldiers. Over the barricade of firewood we clambered, and leaping down inside gave a triumphant shout as we stumbled on a heap of rifles thrown down the yunkers who had stood there.

On both sides of the main gateway the doors stood wide open, light streamed out. and from the huge pile came not the slightest sound. carried along by the eager wave of men we were swept into the right hand entrance, opening into a great bare vaulted room, the cellar of the East wing, from which issued a maze of corridors and stair-cases. A number of huge packing cases stood about, and upon these the Red Guards -and soldiers fell furiously, battering them open with the butts of their rifles, and pulling out carpets, curtains, linen, porcelain plates, glassware.

One man went strutting around with a bronze clock perched on his shoulder; another found a plume of ostrich feathers, which he stuck in his hat. The looting was just beginning when somebody cried, ‘Comrades! Don't touch anything! Don't take anything! This is the property of the People!’ Immediately twenty voices were crying, ‘Stop! Put everything back! Don't take anything! Property of the People!’ Many hands dragged the spoilers down. Damask and tapestry were snatched from the arms of those who had them; two men took away the bronze clock. Roughly and hastily the things were crammed back in their cases, and self-appointed sentinels stood guard. It was all utterly spontaneous. Through corridors and up stair-cases the cry could be heard growing fainter and fainter in the distance, ‘Revolutionary discipline! Property of the People.’

We crossed back over to the left entrance, in the West wing. There order was also being established. ‘Clear the Palace!’ bawled a Red Guard, sticking his head through an inner door. ‘Come, comrades, let's show that we're not thieves and bandits. Everybody out of the Palace except, the Commissars, until we get sentries posted.’

Two Red Guards, a soldier and an officer, stood with revolvers in their hands. Another soldier sat at a table behind them, with pen and paper. Shouts of ‘All out! All out!’ were heard far and near within, and the Army began to pour through the door, jostling, expostulating, arguing. As each man appeared he was seized by the self-appointed committee, who went through his pockets and looked under his coat. Everything that was plainly not his property was taken away, the man at the table noted it on his paper, and it was carried into a little room.

...Yunkers came out, in bunches of three or four. The committee seized upon them with an excess of zeal, accompanying the search with remarks like, ‘Ah, Provocators! Kornilovists! Counter-revolutionists! Murderers of the People!’ But there was no violence done, although the yunkers were terrified. They too had their pockets full of small plunder. It waa carefully noted down by the scribe, and piled in the little room. The yunkers were disarmed. ‘Now, will you take up arms against the People any more?’ demanded clamouring voices.

"No," answered the yunkers, one by one. Whereupon they were allowed to go free.

...In the meanwhile unrebuked we walked into the Palace. There was still a great deal of coming and going, of exploring new - found apartments in the vast edifice, of searching for hidden garrisons of yunkers which did not exist. We went upstairs and wandered through room after room.

..The old Palace servants in their blue and red and gold uniforms stood nervously about, from force of habit repeating, ‘You can't go in there, harm! It is forbidden.’ We penetrated at length to the gold and malachite chamber with crimson brocade hangings where the Ministers had been in session all that day and night and where the shveitzari had betrayed them to the Red Guards. The long table covered with green baize was just as they had left it, under arrest. Before each empty seat was pen and ink and paper; the papers were scribbled over with beginnings of plans of action, rough drafts of proclamations and manifestos. Most of these were scratched out, as their futility became evident, and the rest of the sheet covered with absent-minded geometrical designs, as the writers sat despondently listening while Minister after Minister proposed chimerical schemes. I took one of these scribbled pages, in the h-and writing of Konovalov, which read, ‘The Provisional Government appeals to all classes to support the Provisional Government.’

...we didn't notice a change in the attitude of the soldiers and Red Guards around us. As we strolled from room to room a small group followed us, until by the time we reached the great picture gallery where we had spent the afternoon with the yunkers, about a hundred men surged in after us. One giant of a soldier stood in our path, his face dark with sullen suspicion.

.‘Who are you?’ he growled. ‘What are you doing here?’ The others massed slowly around, staring and beginning to mutter. ‘Provocatori’I heard somebody say. ‘'Looters !’ I produced our passes from the Military Revolutionary Committee. The soldier took them gingerly, turned them upside down and looked at them without comprehension. Evidently he could not read. He handed them back and spat on the floor. ‘Bumagi! Papers!’ said he with contempt. The mass slowly began to close in, like wild cattle around a cowpuncher on foot. Over their heads I caught sight of an officer, looking helpless, and shouted to him. He made for us shouldering his way through.

'I'm the Commissar,' he said to me. ‘Who are you? What is it?’ The others held back, waiting. I produced the papers.

'You are foreigners?' he rapidly asked in French. 'It is very dangerous.' Then he turned to the mob, holding up our documents. ‘Comrades!’ he cried. 'These people are foreign comrades from America. They have come here to be able to tell their countrymen about the bravery and the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army!'

'How do you know that?' replied the big soldier.'‘I tell you they are provocators! They say they came here to observe the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army, but they have been wandering freely through the Palace, and how do we know they haven't got their pockets full of loot?'

'Pravilno!' snarled the others, pressing forward.

'Comrades! Comrades!' appealed the officer, sweat standing out on his forehead. ‘I am Commissar of the Military Revolutionary Committee. Do you trust me? Well, I tell you that these passes are signed with the same names that are signed to my pass!’

He led us down through the Palace and out through a door opening onto the Neva quay, before which stood the usual committee going through pockets. ‘You have narrowly escaped,’ he kept muttering, wiping his face.

References:
   This eyewitness account appears in: Reed, John, Ten Days That Shook the World (1935); Salisbury, Harrison, Black night, white snow: Russia's Revolutions 1905-1917 (1977).

How To Cite This Article:
"The Bolsheviks Storm the Winter Palace, 1917" EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2006).
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/bolshevik.htm

Maybe you prefer photos, though you can't see their party cards, this is identified as Bolshevik volunteers

Maybe you can interpret this


What is the point of a long quote from American communist John Reed.  Anyone familiar with the Bolsheviks know they forcefully seized power in Russia.  I think the whole point that was being addressed was that those Bolsheviks were mostly Russian.  Period.  And the Whites were Russian.  But the Russian Reds beat the Russian Whites.  The point was Berdyaev pointing to the origins of Russian communism in the Russian messianic spirit, the nihilism propagated by revolutionary Russias in the 19th century, etc.  Are you claiming Bolshevism wasn't supported by any Russians?  You mentioned Bela Kun, and Bavaria, but the point there was that Communism did not succeed.  It only succeeded internally in Russia.  Russia's President Putin lays flowers at the grave of Denikin at the same time he posts official Russian stamps honoring the Soviet Secret Policemen of the 1930s like Vsevolod Balitsky who was head of the N.K.V.D. in Ukraine during the Holodomor.  So the current regime in Russia seems to be laying claim both to Red and White Russia in some kind of amalgam.

The point however is that Bolshevism came to power in Russia proper and stayed there and spread at gunpoint from Russia.  Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
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Heorhij
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WWW
« Reply #94 on: August 26, 2010, 10:37:38 PM »

ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?

I will, once I get back, Lord willing.  For one thing, Filoret was defrocked by the Holy Synod of Moscow, and all Orthodox Churches recognize it.

For absolutely false, unproven accusations; and the fact they recognize it simply witness that HAH is on ROC payroll.
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Heorhij
Merarches
***********
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Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #95 on: August 26, 2010, 10:43:52 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

Soo the Bolsheviks didn't storm the Winter Palace. I'm sure both the Imperial family and Kerensky will be glad to hear that.
Quote
"Like a black river, filling all the street...we poured through the Red Arch."

John Reed was born to privilege in Oregon. He attended Harvard and after graduating in 1910, pursued a carrier in journalism. His coverage of labor strikes in New Jersey and the Mexican Revolution turned his political leanings to the left. In 1917 he traveled to Russia to cover the turmoil there. He immediately embraced the Bolshevik cause and was welcomed into the movement. John Reed died of typhus in Moscow on October 20, 1920 at age 33. His body lay in state and was buried in Red Square. The day of his funeral was declared a national holiday.


He joined the assault on the Winter Palace and later wrote of his experience.  Once in power, the Bolsheviks revised the Russian calendar, substituting the older Julian calendar with the Gregorian calendar used by most European countries. Under this new calendar, the date of the assault on the Winter Palace changed from October 25 to November 6.   We join his story as the insurrectionist mob makes its way down the darkened streets of St. Petersburg:

"Like a black river, filling all the street, without song or cheer we poured through the Red Arch, where the man just ahead of me said in a low voice: ‘Look out, comrades! Don't trust them. They will fire, surely!’ In the open we began to run, stooping low and bunching together, and jammed up suddenly behind the pedestal of the Alexander Column.

‘How many of you did they kill?’ I asked. ‘I don't know. About ten.’

After a few minutes huddling there, some hundreds of men, the army seemed reassured and without any orders suddenly began again to flow forward. By this time, in the light that streamed out of all the Winter Palace windows, I could see that the first two or three hundred men were Red Guards, with only a few scattered soldiers. Over the barricade of firewood we clambered, and leaping down inside gave a triumphant shout as we stumbled on a heap of rifles thrown down the yunkers who had stood there.

On both sides of the main gateway the doors stood wide open, light streamed out. and from the huge pile came not the slightest sound. carried along by the eager wave of men we were swept into the right hand entrance, opening into a great bare vaulted room, the cellar of the East wing, from which issued a maze of corridors and stair-cases. A number of huge packing cases stood about, and upon these the Red Guards -and soldiers fell furiously, battering them open with the butts of their rifles, and pulling out carpets, curtains, linen, porcelain plates, glassware.

One man went strutting around with a bronze clock perched on his shoulder; another found a plume of ostrich feathers, which he stuck in his hat. The looting was just beginning when somebody cried, ‘Comrades! Don't touch anything! Don't take anything! This is the property of the People!’ Immediately twenty voices were crying, ‘Stop! Put everything back! Don't take anything! Property of the People!’ Many hands dragged the spoilers down. Damask and tapestry were snatched from the arms of those who had them; two men took away the bronze clock. Roughly and hastily the things were crammed back in their cases, and self-appointed sentinels stood guard. It was all utterly spontaneous. Through corridors and up stair-cases the cry could be heard growing fainter and fainter in the distance, ‘Revolutionary discipline! Property of the People.’

We crossed back over to the left entrance, in the West wing. There order was also being established. ‘Clear the Palace!’ bawled a Red Guard, sticking his head through an inner door. ‘Come, comrades, let's show that we're not thieves and bandits. Everybody out of the Palace except, the Commissars, until we get sentries posted.’

Two Red Guards, a soldier and an officer, stood with revolvers in their hands. Another soldier sat at a table behind them, with pen and paper. Shouts of ‘All out! All out!’ were heard far and near within, and the Army began to pour through the door, jostling, expostulating, arguing. As each man appeared he was seized by the self-appointed committee, who went through his pockets and looked under his coat. Everything that was plainly not his property was taken away, the man at the table noted it on his paper, and it was carried into a little room.

...Yunkers came out, in bunches of three or four. The committee seized upon them with an excess of zeal, accompanying the search with remarks like, ‘Ah, Provocators! Kornilovists! Counter-revolutionists! Murderers of the People!’ But there was no violence done, although the yunkers were terrified. They too had their pockets full of small plunder. It waa carefully noted down by the scribe, and piled in the little room. The yunkers were disarmed. ‘Now, will you take up arms against the People any more?’ demanded clamouring voices.

"No," answered the yunkers, one by one. Whereupon they were allowed to go free.

...In the meanwhile unrebuked we walked into the Palace. There was still a great deal of coming and going, of exploring new - found apartments in the vast edifice, of searching for hidden garrisons of yunkers which did not exist. We went upstairs and wandered through room after room.

..The old Palace servants in their blue and red and gold uniforms stood nervously about, from force of habit repeating, ‘You can't go in there, harm! It is forbidden.’ We penetrated at length to the gold and malachite chamber with crimson brocade hangings where the Ministers had been in session all that day and night and where the shveitzari had betrayed them to the Red Guards. The long table covered with green baize was just as they had left it, under arrest. Before each empty seat was pen and ink and paper; the papers were scribbled over with beginnings of plans of action, rough drafts of proclamations and manifestos. Most of these were scratched out, as their futility became evident, and the rest of the sheet covered with absent-minded geometrical designs, as the writers sat despondently listening while Minister after Minister proposed chimerical schemes. I took one of these scribbled pages, in the h-and writing of Konovalov, which read, ‘The Provisional Government appeals to all classes to support the Provisional Government.’

...we didn't notice a change in the attitude of the soldiers and Red Guards around us. As we strolled from room to room a small group followed us, until by the time we reached the great picture gallery where we had spent the afternoon with the yunkers, about a hundred men surged in after us. One giant of a soldier stood in our path, his face dark with sullen suspicion.

.‘Who are you?’ he growled. ‘What are you doing here?’ The others massed slowly around, staring and beginning to mutter. ‘Provocatori’I heard somebody say. ‘'Looters !’ I produced our passes from the Military Revolutionary Committee. The soldier took them gingerly, turned them upside down and looked at them without comprehension. Evidently he could not read. He handed them back and spat on the floor. ‘Bumagi! Papers!’ said he with contempt. The mass slowly began to close in, like wild cattle around a cowpuncher on foot. Over their heads I caught sight of an officer, looking helpless, and shouted to him. He made for us shouldering his way through.

'I'm the Commissar,' he said to me. ‘Who are you? What is it?’ The others held back, waiting. I produced the papers.

'You are foreigners?' he rapidly asked in French. 'It is very dangerous.' Then he turned to the mob, holding up our documents. ‘Comrades!’ he cried. 'These people are foreign comrades from America. They have come here to be able to tell their countrymen about the bravery and the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army!'

'How do you know that?' replied the big soldier.'‘I tell you they are provocators! They say they came here to observe the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army, but they have been wandering freely through the Palace, and how do we know they haven't got their pockets full of loot?'

'Pravilno!' snarled the others, pressing forward.

'Comrades! Comrades!' appealed the officer, sweat standing out on his forehead. ‘I am Commissar of the Military Revolutionary Committee. Do you trust me? Well, I tell you that these passes are signed with the same names that are signed to my pass!’

He led us down through the Palace and out through a door opening onto the Neva quay, before which stood the usual committee going through pockets. ‘You have narrowly escaped,’ he kept muttering, wiping his face.

References:
   This eyewitness account appears in: Reed, John, Ten Days That Shook the World (1935); Salisbury, Harrison, Black night, white snow: Russia's Revolutions 1905-1917 (1977).

How To Cite This Article:
"The Bolsheviks Storm the Winter Palace, 1917" EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2006).
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/bolshevik.htm

Maybe you prefer photos, though you can't see their party cards, this is identified as Bolshevik volunteers

Maybe you can interpret this


What is the point of a long quote from American communist John Reed.  Anyone familiar with the Bolsheviks know they forcefully seized power in Russia.  I think the whole point that was being addressed was that those Bolsheviks were mostly Russian.  Period.  And the Whites were Russian.  But the Russian Reds beat the Russian Whites.  The point was Berdyaev pointing to the origins of Russian communism in the Russian messianic spirit, the nihilism propagated by revolutionary Russias in the 19th century, etc.  Are you claiming Bolshevism wasn't supported by any Russians?  You mentioned Bela Kun, and Bavaria, but the point there was that Communism did not succeed.  It only succeeded internally in Russia.  Russia's President Putin lays flowers at the grave of Denikin at the same time he posts official Russian stamps honoring the Soviet Secret Policemen of the 1930s like Vsevolod Balitsky who was head of the N.K.V.D. in Ukraine during the Holodomor.  So the current regime in Russia seems to be laying claim both to Red and White Russia in some kind of amalgam.

The point however is that Bolshevism came to power in Russia proper and stayed there and spread at gunpoint from Russia.  Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

But it is certainly not about comprehension. It's just that our dear brother Isa Al-Misry, being frustrated because of what he, an oddball, a half-Norvegian and half-Arab, and a former Evangelical Protestant, percieves as some kind of assault on his "tue Orthodoxy" from what he thinks are "Greek Philetists" (and other Philetists), pulls his half-witted "knowledge" of "history" (and just what THAT is...?), to "prove" that all "nationalism" is BAAAAAAD. 
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« Reply #96 on: August 26, 2010, 11:06:24 PM »


But it is certainly not about comprehension. It's just that our dear brother Isa Al-Misry, being frustrated because of what he, an oddball, a half-Norvegian and half-Arab, and a former Evangelical Protestant, percieves as some kind of assault on his "tue Orthodoxy" from what he thinks are "Greek Philetists" (and other Philetists), pulls his half-witted "knowledge" of "history" (and just what THAT is...?), to "prove" that all "nationalism" is BAAAAAAD. 

O.K.  Thanks Heorhij.  Funnily that would explain the multitudinous and disjointed attacks on Ukrainians (i.e. well Russians want this part of Ukraine,  Romanians this part, Khrushchev - the only thing in common to any of this being the poster's negativity to things Ukrainian).  I almost thought he actually had something personal to explain his behavior or his anti-Ukrainian comments.
 Smiley
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« Reply #97 on: August 26, 2010, 11:33:30 PM »

What is the point of a long quote from American communist John Reed. 

Somebody didn't like the illustration of history, and some like to tweek it
You evidently have not studied the severe difficulties the Bolsheviks in Moscow had in installing communism in Ukraine.  
You evidently ignore the severe difficulties the Bolsheviks had in installing communism in Moscow. It is called "the Russian Civil War."
Communism was forced onto Ukraine at the ends of bayonets from the Red Army attacking the Ukrainian National Republic from Russia in 1918-21.  
This is the Winter Palace. What's those pointy things they are carrying?
I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

so I thought an eyewitness account was in order.  You can dispute or discount it, but while doing so, do provide documentation of your "view."


Anyone familiar with the Bolsheviks know they forcefully seized power in Russia. 

Then why your contrast "Communism was forced onto Ukraine at the ends of bayonets from the Red Army attacking the Ukrainian National Republic from Russia in 1918-21...the severe difficulties the Bolsheviks in Moscow had in installing communism in Ukraine"?


I think the whole point that was being addressed was that those Bolsheviks were mostly Russian.  Period.


Most of the Empire was Russian. Period. The Czar was Russian, Kerensky was Russian, Patriarch St. Tikhon was Russian. Lenin was a Russian, Stalin a Georgian, Trotsky a Jew, as was Kamenev. Dzerzhinsky was a Polish szlachta.

And the Whites were Russian.
Not all of them.


But the Russian Reds beat the Russian Whites.


What did the non-Russian Reds do to the Russian Whites?

The point was Berdyaev pointing to the origins of Russian communism in the Russian messianic spirit, the nihilism propagated by revolutionary Russias in the 19th century, etc.


Did I miss your answer to the question?
Did Berdyaev make a distinction between Great and Little Russians? Didn't he become a Marxist in Kiev?
Berdyev was kicked out on the Philosopher's ship in 1922. He was born in Kiev in 1874, went to Kiev University in 1894.
So did he distinguish between Great and Little Russians?

Are you claiming Bolshevism wasn't supported by any Russians?
 
No, I'm documenting not all Russians supported Bolshevism, and not all Bolsheviks were Russian, for instance, not all Ukrainians were against communism, and some Bolsheviks were Ukrainian.

Btw, since it hasn't been explained (and Fr. V. demonstrates he hasn't a clue on this) and will be coming up, who is a Ukrainian?

You mentioned Bela Kun, and Bavaria, but the point there was that Communism did not succeed.

Bela Kun was crushed by the invasion and occupation by the Kingdom of Romania, and Bavaria was crushed (and brought back into union with Germany) by Berlin sending in the Freikorps returning from WWI.


It only succeeded internally in Russia.
 

And Belorussia, the Transcaucasian Federation, Odessa, the Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Republic, the Far Eastern Republc, the Soviet Republic of Ukraine, etc..

Russia's President Putin lays flowers at the grave of Denikin at the same time he posts official Russian stamps honoring the Soviet Secret Policemen of the 1930s like Vsevolod Balitsky who was head of the N.K.V.D. in Ukraine during the Holodomor.  So the current regime in Russia seems to be laying claim both to Red and White Russia in some kind of amalgam.

Sort of like Ukraine disclaiming its Soviet past, but claiming its Soviet borders.

The point however is that Bolshevism came to power in Russia proper and stayed there and spread at gunpoint from Russia.  Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
Like most simplistic ultranationalist rewrites of history, it is not difficult to comprehend at all.
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« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2010, 12:17:24 AM »


Most of the Empire was Russian. Period. The Czar was Russian, Kerensky was Russian, Patriarch St. Tikhon was Russian. Lenin was a Russian, Stalin a Georgian, Trotsky a Jew, as was Kamenev. Dzerzhinsky was a Polish szlachta.


Btw, since it hasn't been explained (and Fr. V. demonstrates he hasn't a clue on this) and will be coming up, who is a Ukrainian?

Firstly, the bulk of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union after the Revolution was Russian.  The Bolshevik Revolution would HAVE succeeded without any Ukrainians.  Period.  The Bolshevik Revolution could NOT have succeeded without substantial Russian support, which was absent in Ukraine.  If you cannot comprehend this, why bother?

Hetman Skoropadsky, who you pictured erroneously as a White, as you claim, again demonstrating your lack of knowledge of the history of the region was allied with the Germans and actually fostered a Ukrainian cultural awakening, despite some in his cabinet.  Indeed, if Skoropadsky was a White, why did he not join the White Russians in the immigration then?  Bet you don't know.  Because he founded the Ukrainian Hetmanivtsi Organization dedicated to Ukrainian independence, which was anathema to the Whites who believed in a One, Undivided Russian Empire.  In the emigration, the Hetman attended Ukrainian Orthodox, not Russian Orthodox, Church services.  A White would not attend a Ukrainian Orthodox service.  So see you have learned something new from me.

As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

By the way, do you condemn the Russian Federation issuing stamps honoring long-dead N.K.V.D. agents with the bloods of millions on their hands under Putin?  It would seem that this is something you as an Orthodox Christian would surely condemn, or are you fine with Putin's exaltation of the Secret Police, Soviet and Russian?  I notice you have absolutely nothing to say about Russian extremist nationalism.  What do you have to say about the extreme Russian nationalist group NASHI supported by the Russian government, or as some have called it the Putinjugend?  Is it an acceptable nationalism to you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashi_%28youth_movement%29

It seems rather than concretely dealing with the Real concerns of millions of Ukrainian Orthodox on this thread, all you resort to is attacking things Ukrainian without even analyzing Russian extremist nationalism, which by any count, is the bigger Force.
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« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2010, 03:24:35 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?
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« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2010, 07:50:53 AM »

I will, once I get back, Lord willing.  For one thing, Filoret was defrocked by the Holy Synod of Moscow, and all Orthodox Churches recognize it.
Provide me with the statements of recognition then.

In the meantime, I'll ask again, what is the basis of your statement "On what basis would you compare Ukraine to France or Australia?" How is Moscow's jurisdiction in France or in Australia like Moscow's jurisdiction over Ukraine?
Moscow has a jurisdiction IN Ukraine (the UOC-MP) but not OVER it. That is quite a difference.

(Actually, I am starting to wonder which jurisdiction ethnical Romanians in northern Bukovina are in...)
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« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2010, 08:26:04 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?
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« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2010, 08:36:57 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?

Any sources that Patriarch Bartholomew receives money from Moscow Patriarchate?
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« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2010, 08:42:40 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?

Any sources that Patriarch Bartholomew receives money from Moscow Patriarchate?

The original post?
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« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2010, 08:42:54 AM »

I will, once I get back, Lord willing.  For one thing, Filoret was defrocked by the Holy Synod of Moscow, and all Orthodox Churches recognize it.
Provide me with the statements of recognition then.

I remember the fact of concelebration of the UOC clergy and Hierarchs from the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Moscow, Georgia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, Poland, Albania, Czech lands and Slovakia and OCA.
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« Reply #105 on: August 27, 2010, 08:44:20 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?

Any sources that Patriarch Bartholomew receives money from Moscow Patriarchate?

The original post?

I didn't know Patriarch Bartholomew is a Patriarch since 17th century.
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« Reply #106 on: August 27, 2010, 09:12:25 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?

Any sources that Patriarch Bartholomew receives money from Moscow Patriarchate?

The original post?

I didn't know Patriarch Bartholomew is a Patriarch since 17th century.

In the original post, Fr. P. Vintsukevych alludes that HAH takes money from Moscow. And I don't have a good reason to not trust Father P.V. because he is an "insider," unlike us.
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« Reply #107 on: August 27, 2010, 09:38:29 AM »

As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

Pan Subtelny has some interesting things to say, but I would first like to hear Heorhe and Gorazd's opinion of his work first.

For that matter, I'd like to their, and your definition of a "Ukrainian" (I'm assuming that Gorazd is Ukrainian with a Moravian name, if not, I'd like him to so state with his definition).

(as to your other question, is Charlemagne German? Is Philip II Spanish? Was Napolean Italian?)
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« Reply #108 on: August 27, 2010, 09:44:57 AM »

"Gorazd" is because of Saint Gorazd (in the avatar), whom I admire very much. I am not Ukrainian - from Germany, with some Czech ancestry, but with close ties to Ukraine. I feel somewhat able to comment on the situation because I am in Ukraine regularly.
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« Reply #109 on: August 27, 2010, 09:49:18 AM »

"Gorazd" is because of Saint Gorazd (in the avatar), whom I admire very much. I am not Ukrainian - from Germany, with some Czech ancestry, but with close ties to Ukraine. I feel somewhat able to comment on the situation because I am in Ukraine regularly.

As long as Heorhij and IvanMazepa don't object, you can still give your definition.
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« Reply #110 on: August 27, 2010, 09:52:10 AM »

As long as Heorhij and IvanMazepa don't object, you can still give your definition.

Do you know the duck test? "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

So we could say that someone who speaks Ukrainian, practises Ukrainian culture, loves Ukraine and is willing to defend Ukraine should be considered Ukrainian.
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« Reply #111 on: August 27, 2010, 10:00:18 AM »


In the original post, Fr. P. Vintsukevych alludes that HAH takes money from Moscow. And I don't have a good reason to not trust Father P.V. because he is an "insider," unlike us.

I don't know.  The name sounds Jewish  Smiley
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« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2010, 10:15:20 AM »


Do you know the duck test? "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

So we could say that someone who speaks Ukrainian, practises Ukrainian culture, loves Ukraine and is willing to defend Ukraine should be considered Ukrainian.

I think that is a very reasonable definition.  In my opinion (worthless as that may be) the real problem stems from somebody drawing an imaginary line around a piece a ground and calling it Ukraine when a very large portion of people living within that boundary are not Ukrainian.  I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian.  A nation is not made up of its dirt, but of its people.  Unfortunately, the failure to recognize this has cost countless gallons of blood to be spilt over the years.  Thanks be to God that the Urainians and Russians in "Ukraine" are fighting a war of words and not yet a war of blood (at least not on a large scale).  I believe that is worthy of respect, and continued prayer.
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« Reply #113 on: August 27, 2010, 10:19:42 AM »


Do you know the duck test? "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

So we could say that someone who speaks Ukrainian, practises Ukrainian culture, loves Ukraine and is willing to defend Ukraine should be considered Ukrainian.

I think that is a very reasonable definition.  In my opinion (worthless as that may be) the real problem stems from somebody drawing an imaginary line around a piece a ground and calling it Ukraine when a very large portion of people living within that boundary are not Ukrainian.  I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian.  A nation is not made up of its dirt, but of its people.  Unfortunately, the failure to recognize this has cost countless gallons of blood to be spilt over the years.  Thanks be to God that the Urainians and Russians in "Ukraine" are fighting a war of words and not yet a war of blood (at least not on a large scale).  I believe that is worthy of respect, and continued prayer.
Stop interjecting reason. Tongue
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« Reply #114 on: August 27, 2010, 10:24:43 AM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?
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« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2010, 11:20:25 AM »

Look, guys, whatever the definition of Ukrainian might be (and I agree, some nationalists define Ukrainian in a way that does not suit people with no nationalist feelings), it is besides the point here. Again, the open letter of an Orthodox priest, apparently an older, retired man who used to be the Provost of a large Orthodox seminary (i.e. an "insider") raises a huge issue. This issue, essentially, is: several milllion Orthodox in Ukraine are deprived of the Church because of a stubborn desire of the Patriarch of Moscow to have ONLY one Orthodox jurisdiction in Ukraine, this jurisdiction being NOT really "autonomous" and - most importantly - void of the Ukrainian language and culture. This is a deliberate policy that has a very long tradition, and it will not change. So, what shall we do? "Re-educate" those "bad" nationalists, explaining to them that if they continue to be what they are (i.e. passionate Ukrainian patriots, people who love their Ukrainian language, culture, history...), then they are not Orthodox? Or maybe there is another solution? I really do not know, that's why I am seeking your reasonable and friendly advice.
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« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2010, 11:50:41 AM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

Good question.  I know a Ukrainian here (Chicago) who went back to marry a girl from around Lviv, although I take it his family is further East.  He is in submission to the Vatican, but just barely.  He staunchly supports the use of Slavonic, as he is a Philo-/Pan-slavist, besides a traditionalist.  He speaks only Ukrainian at home, as does his children. He is also a Russophile, although he goes to, and supports, independent Ukraine.  It would seem your figures tell that he isn't the only one.
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« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2010, 11:53:37 AM »

I take it his family is further East.  He is in submission to the Vatican, but just barely. 

"Further east" than the area around Lviv, people are not really Greek Catholic...
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« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2010, 12:03:04 PM »

I take it his family is further East.  He is in submission to the Vatican, but just barely. 

"Further east" than the area around Lviv, people are not really Greek Catholic...

Yes, they migrated it seems, I just don't remember when.
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« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2010, 12:04:58 PM »

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

That is the problem in any civil dispute.  If one of us finds an acceptable solution for this kind of a problem, I am sure that we would have earned a Nobel Peace Prize.
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« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2010, 12:25:41 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church. I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian, pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition. Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.
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« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2010, 12:43:23 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church. I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian, pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition. Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.

Well...I strongly believe that each nation should have its own autocephalous church. Period. I have explained my reasoning elsewhere but suffice it to say that I agree that it is a scandal that we have such church "imperialism" still persisting in this day and age. I would include the Church of Macedonia in the list of Orthodox Churches that are maltreated, along with the putative Church of Ukraine. FYI, I am a member of the OCA and a naturalized citizen of Bulgaro-Macedonian descent.
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« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2010, 12:50:06 PM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

Makes me wonder where Taras Bul'ba (and hence Gogol) would fall according to his last words:

Quote
When Taras Bulba recovered from the blow, and glanced towards the Dniester, the Cossacks were already in the skiffs and rowing away. Balls were showered upon them from above but did not reach them. And the old hetman's eyes sparkled with joy.

"Farewell, comrades!" he shouted to them from above; "remember me, and come hither again next spring and make merry in the same fashion! What! cursed Lyakhs, have ye caught me? Think ye there is anything in the world that a Cossack fears? Wait; the time will come when ye shall learn what the orthodox Russian faith is! Already the people scent it far and near. A czar shall arise from Russian soil, and there shall not be a power in the world which shall not submit to him!" But fire had already risen from the fagots; it lapped his feet, and the flame spread to the tree.... But can any fire, flames, or power be found on earth which are capable of overpowering Russian strength?
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« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2010, 01:00:27 PM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

Makes me wonder where Taras Bul'ba (and hence Gogol) would fall according to his last words:

Quote
When Taras Bulba recovered from the blow, and glanced towards the Dniester, the Cossacks were already in the skiffs and rowing away. Balls were showered upon them from above but did not reach them. And the old hetman's eyes sparkled with joy.

"Farewell, comrades!" he shouted to them from above; "remember me, and come hither again next spring and make merry in the same fashion! What! cursed Lyakhs, have ye caught me? Think ye there is anything in the world that a Cossack fears? Wait; the time will come when ye shall learn what the orthodox Russian faith is! Already the people scent it far and near. A czar shall arise from Russian soil, and there shall not be a power in the world which shall not submit to him!" But fire had already risen from the fagots; it lapped his feet, and the flame spread to the tree.... But can any fire, flames, or power be found on earth which are capable of overpowering Russian strength?

Bad English translation. Gogol's original, Русская зeмля, applies to the present-day Russia just like it applies to the Moon or Mars.
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« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2010, 01:20:12 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church.

You perceive wrong.

I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian,

You perceive wrong.

pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Is that why you are reading wrong?

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople


Going under Constantinople would only make it uncanonical, and make the EP suseptible to deposition.

Did someone recommomend Russian dominance? I missed that.

Oh, and in answer to your question, the same reason why their is no Arab Patriarchate of Alexandria nor Antioch.

or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Why would they be any different from any other believer in the Vatican's ultrmontanist claims?

The faxt that you find this odd indicates that you confess the creed of one, heretical, schismatic and phyletist Ukrainian church, not the В єдину, Святу, Соборну і Апостольську Церкву of the Ukrainian Orthodox.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church
You have a Protestant church of the eastern rite in Ukrainian
Im curious as to members thoughts on this..
You should change the name to the Ukrainian Protestant Church.

with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition.


Does the U"O"CKP have an ordained office of prophet?

Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.
Because we agree with the message that phyletism is heretical, although many of us find fault with the messenger?
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« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2010, 01:39:36 PM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

Makes me wonder where Taras Bul'ba (and hence Gogol) would fall according to his last words:

Quote
When Taras Bulba recovered from the blow, and glanced towards the Dniester, the Cossacks were already in the skiffs and rowing away. Balls were showered upon them from above but did not reach them. And the old hetman's eyes sparkled with joy.

"Farewell, comrades!" he shouted to them from above; "remember me, and come hither again next spring and make merry in the same fashion! What! cursed Lyakhs, have ye caught me? Think ye there is anything in the world that a Cossack fears? Wait; the time will come when ye shall learn what the orthodox Russian faith is! Already the people scent it far and near. A czar shall arise from Russian soil, and there shall not be a power in the world which shall not submit to him!" But fire had already risen from the fagots; it lapped his feet, and the flame spread to the tree.... But can any fire, flames, or power be found on earth which are capable of overpowering Russian strength?

Bad English translation. Gogol's original, Русская зeмля, applies to the present-day Russia just like it applies to the Moon or Mars.
I stuck that in google.ru, and the first thing that came up was this:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BB%D1%8F
with this map

The English link has this map


Is that Rostov, Suzdal, Vladimir, Moscow and the site of the future St. Petersburg I see in the red? And although it is red, it's not on the Red Planet (or the moon for that matter). If fact a lot of the red area is in what my map of earth shows as Russia, while the red area doesn't cover much of what my map says is in Ukraine.

Btw, the English of the Russian map

is in the article on the Principality of Vladimir-Suzdal, the precursor of the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the cradle of Great Russian, and successor to the Grand Duchy of the Rus'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir-Suzdal
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« Reply #126 on: August 27, 2010, 02:36:01 PM »

Btw, a point I might come to later:

Would there be Ukraine without the submission of the Western part of it to the Vatican?  St. Petru Movilă (Petro Mogila if you prefer), Tara Shevchenko, Nikolai Gogol and Nikolai Kostomarov show there would be.

Would there be a Ukraine without Orthodoxy? No.

Would Ukraine have remained Orthodox without Moscow?
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« Reply #127 on: August 27, 2010, 02:40:12 PM »

I stuck that in google.ru

Don't.

P.S. Isa, may I ask, you, what do you do for living?

I mean, if you teach history... maybe, for your students' sanity sake, switch to teaching them something else - Norwegian, Arabic? You strike me as an awful, colossal diletant in history. No wonder you believe sources that end with .ru like a baby.
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« Reply #128 on: August 27, 2010, 03:11:11 PM »

I stuck that in google.ru

Don't.

P.S. Isa, may I ask, you, what do you do for living?

I mean, if you teach history... maybe, for your students' sanity sake, switch to teaching them something else - Norwegian, Arabic? You strike me as an awful, colossal diletant in history. No wonder you believe sources that end with .ru like a baby.

Then why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

btw, my Oxford Russian Dictionary says for Русская "1. fem. of -ий" (I don't think "2. russkaya (Russian folk dance)" is pertinent. Do you?). Русский says "adj. Russian."   For зeмля "1. earth, (dry) land. 2. land, soil (fig.) 3. earth, soil 4. (in Germany [which we aren't]) Land, state; (in Austria [which Ukraine isn't, thanks to the Czar, Stalin and Khrushchev) province." But I already knew that.  Somehow, I seem to know you knew that too. Do let us know if you have something else. You can go in google books and find all sorts of interesting things.

The same thing came up  in the google.com.ua.  Did Gogol write Руська земля?

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?
As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

Pan Subtelny has some interesting things to say, but I would first like to hear Heorhe and Gorazd's opinion of his work first.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 03:16:44 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #129 on: August 27, 2010, 03:31:49 PM »

I stuck that in google.ru

Don't.

P.S. Isa, may I ask, you, what do you do for living?

I mean, if you teach history... maybe, for your students' sanity sake, switch to teaching them something else - Norwegian, Arabic? You strike me as an awful, colossal diletant in history. No wonder you believe sources that end with .ru like a baby.

Then why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

btw, my Oxford Russian Dictionary says for Русская "1. fem. of -ий" (I don't think "2. russkaya (Russian folk dance)" is pertinent. Do you?). Русский says "adj. Russian."   For зeмля "1. earth, (dry) land. 2. land, soil (fig.) 3. earth, soil 4. (in Germany [which we aren't]) Land, state; (in Austria [which Ukraine isn't, thanks to the Czar, Stalin and Khrushchev) province." But I already knew that.  Somehow, I seem to know you knew that too. Do let us know if you have something else. You can go in google books and find all sorts of interesting things.

The same thing came up  in the google.com.ua.  Did Gogol write Руська земля?

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?
As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

Pan Subtelny has some interesting things to say, but I would first like to hear Heorhe and Gorazd's opinion of his work first.

Isa, I don't know how you find so much time in the day to engage in anti-Ukrainian propaganda.  I don't have the time to respond to every attack so why don't you CLEARLY explain whether you have read Subtelny's History and what points in his work do you object to (preferably chapter and page).  I'll have to go back to work while you engage in your anti-Ukrainian mission but point out exactly what is wrong with the Standard History of Ukraine used by most Universities in the Western world and in Ukraine about Ukrainian History.  You obviously know more than professors who have doctorates in Ukrainian history.  I can also address Professor Magocsi's History of Ukraine and if you object to anything he writes please provide chapter and page.
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« Reply #130 on: August 27, 2010, 03:52:00 PM »

I stuck that in google.ru

Don't.

P.S. Isa, may I ask, you, what do you do for living?

I mean, if you teach history... maybe, for your students' sanity sake, switch to teaching them something else - Norwegian, Arabic? You strike me as an awful, colossal diletant in history. No wonder you believe sources that end with .ru like a baby.

Then why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

btw, my Oxford Russian Dictionary says for Русская "1. fem. of -ий" (I don't think "2. russkaya (Russian folk dance)" is pertinent. Do you?). Русский says "adj. Russian."   For зeмля "1. earth, (dry) land. 2. land, soil (fig.) 3. earth, soil 4. (in Germany [which we aren't]) Land, state; (in Austria [which Ukraine isn't, thanks to the Czar, Stalin and Khrushchev) province." But I already knew that.  Somehow, I seem to know you knew that too. Do let us know if you have something else. You can go in google books and find all sorts of interesting things.

The same thing came up  in the google.com.ua.  Did Gogol write Руська земля?

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?
As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

Pan Subtelny has some interesting things to say, but I would first like to hear Heorhe and Gorazd's opinion of his work first.

Isa, I don't know how you find so much time in the day to engage in anti-Ukrainian propaganda.

I don't engage in anti-Ukrainian propoganda ever.  Somebody has a persecusion complex.

Quote
  I don't have the time to respond to every attack so why don't you CLEARLY explain whether you have read Subtelny's History and what points in his work do you object to (preferably chapter and page). 

You assUme that I object to anything. No, I haven't read the whole thing, but I have no particular objection to it.  I'd like to know if your comrades Heorhij, Gorazd and cossack feel the same way.  That way we do not waste time with posts and responses like the last between Heorhij and me.

Quote
I'll have to go back to work while you engage in your anti-Ukrainian mission
Roll Eyes
Quote
but point out exactly what is wrong with the Standard History of Ukraine used by most Universities in the Western world and in Ukraine about Ukrainian History.  You obviously know more than professors who have doctorates in Ukrainian history.  I can also address Professor Magocsi's History of Ukraine and if you object to anything he writes please provide chapter and page.
Nothing particular (I have read all of his history and other works IIRC and cited them here before).  I haven't posted anything about something being wrong with the Standard History of Ukraine, unless you are claiming Fr. V. as the Standard History of Ukraine.  I neither have a doctorate in Ukrainian history (my doctorate studies were in Islamic History) nor claimed to know more than professors that do. Unless you, cossack or Heorhij have doctorates in Ukrainian history. Do you?
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« Reply #131 on: August 27, 2010, 04:15:55 PM »

why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

Why is what he (an insider, a former seminary provost) writes is "trash,' and what your Russian and Soviet sources say is the Gospel Truth?

Did Gogol write Руська земля?

He was writing in Russian, but his mentality was Ukrainian. So, when he wrote "Русская зeмля," he most certainly meant the same thing his heroes, Ukrainian Cossacs, meant under Русь, Руська зeмля - THEIR land, not the High Principality of Moscow, about which they had only very foggy idea if any. NO ONE in those years called Moscow, or Muscovy lands, "Russia" or "Russian lands," including the Muscovites themselves. Rus'ka zemlya meant the land where Rusy, Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. present-day Ukrainians) lived.

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?

Orest Subtel'ny is a well-know historian, a professional (definitely not pro-Kremlin propagandist).
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« Reply #132 on: August 27, 2010, 04:24:24 PM »

why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

Why is what he (an insider, a former seminary provost) writes is "trash,' and what your Russian and Soviet sources say is the Gospel Truth?

Did Gogol write Руська земля?

He was writing in Russian, but his mentality was Ukrainian. So, when he wrote "Русская зeмля," he most certainly meant the same thing his heroes, Ukrainian Cossacs, meant under Русь, Руська зeмля - THEIR land, not the High Principality of Moscow, about which they had only very foggy idea if any. NO ONE in those years called Moscow, or Muscovy lands, "Russia" or "Russian lands," including the Muscovites themselves. Rus'ka zemlya meant the land where Rusy, Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. present-day Ukrainians) lived.

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?

Orest Subtel'ny is a well-know historian, a professional (definitely not pro-Kremlin propagandist).


Any of the current historians such as Prof. Orest Subtely from York University, Prof. Frank Sysyn at the University of Toronto, Prof. John Paul Himka at the University of Alberta are al  good.  All of them are graduates of American Universities.  Prof. Robert Magosci's history and Subtelny's history are both used as standard textbook.  Both Magosci & Sysn have doctorates from Harvard University.
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« Reply #133 on: August 27, 2010, 04:41:26 PM »

Ialmisry,

I am still waiting for your condemnation of Russian nationalism in the MP.
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« Reply #134 on: August 27, 2010, 05:05:56 PM »

why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

Why is what he (an insider, a former seminary provost) writes is "trash,' and what your Russian and Soviet sources say is the Gospel Truth?

Was he inside the Constantinople, Kiev or the Kremlin in 1686, to get the Gospel Truth on the alleged bribing of the EP +DIONYSIOS for Ukraine? That is what you said you wanted to discuss from Fr. V's "insider information," no?

Besides the admittedly "heroic" poster of the storming of the winter palace (which sees that as something glorious, but then I wasn't posting it for that. Rather to show that neither the Czar nor Kerensky just handed the keys over.  The Bolsheviks had Bayonets), I don't recall citing a Soviet source here. Maybe I'm forgetting. As for Russian, I think I've only quoted Gogol. Am I forgetting something?

Oh, yeah, the interview with Father Sidor, the leader of those Carpathorussian you say don't exist:they're Ukrainian, they just don't know/admit that. funny, that's exactly what the Muscovites tell me about you all. (I don't pay attention to that either).


Did Gogol write Руська земля?

He was writing in Russian, but his mentality was Ukrainian. So, when he wrote "Русская зeмля," he most certainly meant the same thing his heroes, Ukrainian Cossacs, meant under Русь, Руська зeмля - THEIR land, not the High Principality of Moscow, about which they had only very foggy idea if any. NO ONE in those years called Moscow, or Muscovy lands, "Russia" or "Russian lands," including the Muscovites themselves. Rus'ka zemlya meant the land where Rusy, Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. present-day Ukrainians) lived.

Look at the map: they lived in Moscow too.

As for Rus'

Quote
7) Wire Kopeck marked "ЮР"
OBVERSE: an image of a horseman carrying a spear, mint engraver's mark "ЮР" under the horse going on foot, circular dotted line.
REVERSE: the 5-line legend means: "Czar and Grand Prince Ivan of Entire Rus" ("Царь и Великий Князь Иван Всея Руси" the exact old cyrillic inscription - "ЦРЬИ / ВЕЛIKIИ / КНSЬIВА / НЬВСЕIA / РУСIИ").
Weight: 0.68 gram
Mint: Novgorod
http://metaldetectingworld.com/cache_hunting_p29.shtml

It is marked "ЮР" I would say for "Yurij"-St. George. That's him in the middle here.


Yeah, I know. "Russian sources." But from "those years.

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?

Orest Subtel'ny is a well-know historian, a professional (definitely not pro-Kremlin propagandist).
Well dobre. Another tak vote.
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