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Author Topic: "An Assault on Our Soul"  (Read 13950 times) Average Rating: 0
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Heorhij
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« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2010, 09:34:29 AM »

Petition of the Synod of UOC to the Holy Synod of ROC.

Impossible. Again, the currently existing "U"OC is NOT Ukrainian and it is the biggest enemy of the idea we are discussing.
No, that would be the Lviv patriarchate plopping itself down in Kiev.

I'm curious.  How isn't it Ukrainian?  How is Met. Volodymyr not Ukrainian?

Like Quisling was Norwegian.Smiley
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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2010, 09:40:24 AM »

Petition of the Synod of UOC to the Holy Synod of ROC.
Was there supposed to be a link?

No. It's my proposal. It would not the decedents.

Impossible. Again, the currently existing "U"OC is NOT Ukrainian and it is the biggest enemy of the idea we are discussing.

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?
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« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2010, 09:43:56 AM »

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2010, 09:47:27 AM »

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

And  those people prefer to be in the illusion of autocephaly to the Catholicity.
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« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2010, 09:49:09 AM »

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
millions don't. That is a large part of the problem.
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« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2010, 10:54:46 AM »

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

And  those people prefer to be in the illusion of autocephaly to the Catholicity.

Let's not judge them and let's not put words in their mouths or thoughts in their heads. They EXIST. They are Orthodox. They cannot be in the "U"OC. What do you propose to do about them? Send them to forced labor camps for "attitude adjustment?" Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2010, 10:57:09 AM »

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
millions don't. That is a large part of the problem.

But those millions that don't may remain in the "U"OC (which could be, in fact, renamed "Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine," just like there is "Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA"). Making UOC-KP and/or UAOC legitimate, recognized by the Orthodox world will in no way harm their interests. Let's concentrate on those millions whose interests ARE harmed.
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« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2010, 11:11:33 AM »

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
millions don't. That is a large part of the problem.

But those millions that don't may remain in the "U"OC (which could be, in fact, renamed "Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine," just like there is "Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA").
"Let's not judge them and let's not put words in their mouths or thoughts in their heads. They EXIST. They are Orthodox."

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.
Quote
Making UOC-KP and/or UAOC legitimate, recognized by the Orthodox world will in no way harm their interests.

Of course it will. Phyletism doesn't need to be encouraged (that goes for Pat. Kyrill too).

Quote
Let's concentrate on those millions whose interests ARE harmed.
We are. Picking scabs isn't healing.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 11:12:12 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2010, 11:22:50 AM »

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.

I said: they - meaning the pro-Russian, void of anything Ukrainian, hierarchs, priests, deacons, other clerics and laity in the so-called "U"OC - aren't Ukrainian. They are often even less Ukrainian than Quisling was Norwegian. He at least did not mind being called Vidkun, a very Norwegian first name. Some faithful in the "U"OC dump their Ukrainian first names and prefer to be called Russian first names (e.g. Alyona instead of Olena, etc.)

Quote
Making UOC-KP and/or UAOC legitimate, recognized by the Orthodox world will in no way harm their interests.

Of course it will. Phyletism doesn't need to be encouraged (that goes for Pat. Kyrill too).

Then let's close the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA, or GOA for that matter?

Quote
Let's concentrate on those millions whose interests ARE harmed.
We are. Picking scabs isn't healing.

So what do you propose?
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« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2010, 11:44:35 AM »

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.

I said: they - meaning the pro-Russian, void of anything Ukrainian, hierarchs, priests, deacons, other clerics and laity in the so-called "U"OC - aren't Ukrainian. They are often even less Ukrainian than Quisling was Norwegian. He at least did not mind being called Vidkun, a very Norwegian first name. Some faithful in the "U"OC dump their Ukrainian first names and prefer to be called Russian first names (e.g. Alyona instead of Olena, etc.)

So the land of their ancestors in which they are born isn't Ukrainian land, being void of anything Ukrainian.

Making UOC-KP and/or UAOC legitimate, recognized by the Orthodox world will in no way harm their interests.

Of course it will. Phyletism doesn't need to be encouraged (that goes for Pat. Kyrill too).

Then let's close the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA, or GOA for that matter?
LOL.  I'm interested in what my Greek detractors would say about that.

Let's concentrate on those millions whose interests ARE harmed.
We are. Picking scabs isn't healing.

So what do you propose?

One, Met. Filaret has got to go.
Two, the Metropolitinate of Kiev be given full autonomy and self rule.  At present, I understand that only the Church of Japan has that in the Patriarchate of Moscow.
Three, the talk of a Tomos of Autocephaly would have to resemble that given to the OCA (e.g. "Patriarchal parishes" restrictions on receiving parishes and exceptions for uncanonical groups etc.) except the primate would bear the title of Patriarch, not Metropolitan.
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« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2010, 11:53:31 AM »

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.

I said: they - meaning the pro-Russian, void of anything Ukrainian, hierarchs, priests, deacons, other clerics and laity in the so-called "U"OC - aren't Ukrainian. They are often even less Ukrainian than Quisling was Norwegian. He at least did not mind being called Vidkun, a very Norwegian first name. Some faithful in the "U"OC dump their Ukrainian first names and prefer to be called Russian first names (e.g. Alyona instead of Olena, etc.)

So the land of their ancestors in which they are born isn't Ukrainian land, being void of anything Ukrainian.

The land is Ukrainian, but they aren't. Or, if you like, they are "nominally Ukrainian."

One, Met. Filaret has got to go.

That will happen naturally in just a few years. He is already 81, going on 82. So when he reposes, do you think it will be constructive for the UOC-KP to not elect their next Patriarch? Or do you think they should just disband?

Two, the Metropolitinate of Kiev be given full autonomy and self rule.  At present, I understand that only the Church of Japan has that in the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Again, within the currently existing "U"OC, a substantial part of hierarchy, clergy and laity will NOT want that to happen. They do not identify with Ukraine. They believe that Moscow is their "spiritual center." They will most actively agitate for NOT giving their jurisdiction autonomy or autocephaly. They think it's an idea that comes from their enemies - Ukrainian nationalists, "Banderites," evil West, Judeo-Masons, etc.

You see, there are two Ukraines, actually... There exist two different worlds within the territory called "Ukraine," two absolutely different civilizations...
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« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2010, 11:56:23 AM »

Let's not judge them and let's not put words in their mouths or thoughts in their heads. They EXIST. They are Orthodox. They cannot be in the "U"OC. What do you propose to do about them? Send them to forced labor camps for "attitude adjustment?" Smiley

I'm not putting anything in their mouths. These are their activities that show it.

IMO they are not "Orthodox".
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« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2010, 12:48:32 PM »

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.

I said: they - meaning the pro-Russian, void of anything Ukrainian, hierarchs, priests, deacons, other clerics and laity in the so-called "U"OC - aren't Ukrainian. They are often even less Ukrainian than Quisling was Norwegian. He at least did not mind being called Vidkun, a very Norwegian first name. Some faithful in the "U"OC dump their Ukrainian first names and prefer to be called Russian first names (e.g. Alyona instead of Olena, etc.)

So the land of their ancestors in which they are born isn't Ukrainian land, being void of anything Ukrainian.
The land is Ukrainian, but they aren't. Or, if you like, they are "nominally Ukrainian."

The land that the Czars and Bolsheviks gave Ukraine?
Everyone who lives in USA must respect USA. Everyone who lives in Ukraine must respect Ukraine. The list can be continued until all (195) countries will be mentioned.
Tell me when you get to Palestine in that list.
Respect?  OK. Those in Galicia should respect Poland, those in Zakarpattia should respect Slovakia, those in Bukovina should respect Romania, those in Crimea should respect Russia, and those in the Donbass and other lands of Novorossiya should respect Russia.
Quote
The problems of Ukraine come from trillions of dollars, spent by Putin's dictatorship, special operations of KGB / FSB and special interests of Gazprom, etc., targeting destruction of the country.
and the Ukrainization policies, as pursued by some in the Rada and Yushenko is doing their work from them.  Make the non-Ukrainian ethnicities uneasy about Ukrainian citizenship, and they might just decide that they might just prefer to return to their countries of origin, meaning reunification.  Except of course Galicia: I doubt they want to go back to Poland, and besides, that region is behind much of the forced assimilation/Ukrainianization in the first place.
...so, since he is of Russian origin
LOL.  So is Crimea and half of Ukraine.
[imgwidth=500]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ukraine-Little_Rus_1654.png/250px-Ukraine-Little_Rus_1654.png[/img]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ukraine-Little_Rus_1654.png/250px-Ukraine-Little_Rus_1654.png
Ukrainian Hetmanate at the time of the union with the Russian Empire, and the present day borders of Ukraine.
No way that half of Ukraine has Russian origin.
Look at the map.  That part on the East all was non-Slavic territory until the Russian empire defeated the Tartars et alia (there were religious differences too, Islam and before that Judaism).  It was basically empty (the nomads didn't settle much and pulled back), and was filled by East Slavs (the distinction at this point between Russian and Ukrainian is problematic).  It wasn't made part of Ukraine until the U.S.S.R. did that, which is also how Ukraine got those territories in the West.

One, Met. Filaret has got to go.

That will happen naturally in just a few years. He is already 81, going on 82. So when he reposes, do you think it will be constructive for the UOC-KP to not elect their next Patriarch? Or do you think they should just disband?

Two, the Metropolitinate of Kiev be given full autonomy and self rule.  At present, I understand that only the Church of Japan has that in the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Again, within the currently existing "U"OC, a substantial part of hierarchy, clergy and laity will NOT want that to happen. They do not identify with Ukraine. They believe that Moscow is their "spiritual center." They will most actively agitate for NOT giving their jurisdiction autonomy or autocephaly. They think it's an idea that comes from their enemies - Ukrainian nationalists, "Banderites," evil West, Judeo-Masons, etc.

You see, there are two Ukraines, actually... There exist two different worlds within the territory called "Ukraine," two absolutely different civilizations...
Since they have been judged traitors to Ukraine, they might as well prove themselves utra-nationalists for Russia (or Ruthenia/Carparto-Russia).
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« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2010, 03:58:23 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
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« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2010, 04:03:21 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed

OK, I propose that the breakaway Churches repent of the schism, and that the ROC-MP takes them back in love and welcomes them as equal brothers in Christ.  I also propose that the Greek Catholics repent and become part of the big happy family, and that all Russians and Ukrainians live in peace and unity from henceforth and forever more.  Now excuse me while I go to the end of my rainbow and feed my unicorn.
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« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2010, 05:53:37 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed

OK, I propose that the breakaway Churches repent of the schism, and that the ROC-MP takes them back in love and welcomes them as equal brothers in Christ.  I also propose that the Greek Catholics repent and become part of the big happy family, and that all Russians and Ukrainians live in peace and unity from henceforth and forever more.  Now excuse me while I go to the end of my rainbow and feed my unicorn.

I appreciate your humor.Smiley But it's a real tragedy for several million people, and something has to be done...
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« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2010, 06:05:00 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed

OK, I propose that the breakaway Churches repent of the schism, and that the ROC-MP takes them back in love and welcomes them as equal brothers in Christ.  I also propose that the Greek Catholics repent and become part of the big happy family, and that all Russians and Ukrainians live in peace and unity from henceforth and forever more.  Now excuse me while I go to the end of my rainbow and feed my unicorn.

I appreciate your humor.Smiley But it's a real tragedy for several million people, and something has to be done...

I am glad that you took it as humor because that is how it was intended.  And even though I do not understand the people’s feeling of tragedy, I agree that the situation is sad and pray for a solution acceptable to all sides.
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« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2010, 06:12:53 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
That's all Fr. V. is doing.
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« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2010, 06:51:11 PM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?
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« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2010, 06:54:33 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
That's all Fr. V. is doing.

Well, he is informing about a certain bad, tragic situation. He might be too polemic, granted. But I can confirm, as a Ukrainian who visits Ukraine every 2 years and talks with many people from there, that millions of Ukrainians will never, ever, ever join the existing canonical "U"OC. Unlike my friend and brother Mike here, I cannot judgementally proclaim them "not Orthodox." They ARE Orthodox, but they are ALSO Ukrainian patriots. One can be an Orthodox and a loving father or husband or son or daughter. Similarly, one CAN be Orthodox and also love one's country, land, people, history, customs, language. None of the latter will ever develop within the "U"OC, because it is led by hierarchs who consider Moscow, not Kyiv, their "spiritual center," and literally take orders from there. So, what are we to do?
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« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2010, 06:56:50 PM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

Exactly. That's what I think, too.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?

Well, according to Fr. Vintsukevych, patr. +KIRILL is *PAYING* HAH. So, it will be just a "piece of cake" (a very easy thing to do) for him to pay those smaller prelates and have them do his (Patr. +KIRILL's) politics.
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« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2010, 07:01:56 PM »

Well, according to Fr. Vintsukevych, patr. +KIRILL is *PAYING* HAH. So, it will be just a "piece of cake" (a very easy thing to do) for him to pay those smaller prelates and have them do his (Patr. +KIRILL's) politics.

Maybe. But there are still 14 canonical churches, one of them coulöd be found to refuse Moscow money. Maybe Romania, they are financed by their state anyway, and they are not on good terms with the MP because Moscow has parishes in Moldavia.

In my opinion, Romania is the largest Orthodox Church, in terms of people who actually attend on Sunday. The MP has more nominal members, but most of them  show up only for Easter, Transfiguration and maybe Christmas.
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« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2010, 07:33:44 PM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?
Because they will have to deal with Moscow, who has the canons on their side.
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« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2010, 07:35:54 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
That's all Fr. V. is doing.

Well, he is informing about a certain bad, tragic situation.

He inflames more than he informs.

Quote
He might be too polemic, granted. But I can confirm, as a Ukrainian who visits Ukraine every 2 years and talks with many people from there, that millions of Ukrainians will never, ever, ever join the existing canonical "U"OC. Unlike my friend and brother Mike here, I cannot judgementally proclaim them "not Orthodox." They ARE Orthodox, but they are ALSO Ukrainian patriots. One can be an Orthodox and a loving father or husband or son or daughter. Similarly, one CAN be Orthodox and also love one's country, land, people, history, customs, language. None of the latter will ever develop within the "U"OC, because it is led by hierarchs who consider Moscow, not Kyiv, their "spiritual center," and literally take orders from there. So, what are we to do?
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« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2010, 08:18:21 PM »

Well, according to Fr. Vintsukevych, patr. +KIRILL is *PAYING* HAH. So, it will be just a "piece of cake" (a very easy thing to do) for him to pay those smaller prelates and have them do his (Patr. +KIRILL's) politics.

Maybe. But there are still 14 canonical churches, one of them coulöd be found to refuse Moscow money. Maybe Romania, they are financed by their state anyway, and they are not on good terms with the MP because Moscow has parishes in Moldavia.

In my opinion, Romania is the largest Orthodox Church, in terms of people who actually attend on Sunday. The MP has more nominal members, but most of them  show up only for Easter, Transfiguration and maybe Christmas.
Constantinople wasn't bought off in 1589 nor 1687 nor now.  Fr. V. would like to portray EP +DIONYSIS as bribed. Such evidently was not the case, given the facts and circumstances, as opposed to allegations, over the issue.

Btw, Ukraine has Northern Bucovina, and the Romanians want it back, along with other territory that Khrushchev gave Ukraine.
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« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2010, 02:17:19 AM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?

But they want to be autocephalous.
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« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2010, 08:53:12 AM »

Well, according to Fr. Vintsukevych, patr. +KIRILL is *PAYING* HAH. So, it will be just a "piece of cake" (a very easy thing to do) for him to pay those smaller prelates and have them do his (Patr. +KIRILL's) politics.

Maybe. But there are still 14 canonical churches, one of them coulöd be found to refuse Moscow money. Maybe Romania, they are financed by their state anyway, and they are not on good terms with the MP because Moscow has parishes in Moldavia.

In my opinion, Romania is the largest Orthodox Church, in terms of people who actually attend on Sunday. The MP has more nominal members, but most of them  show up only for Easter, Transfiguration and maybe Christmas.
Constantinople wasn't bought off in 1589 nor 1687 nor now.  Fr. V. would like to portray EP +DIONYSIS as bribed. Such evidently was not the case, given the facts and circumstances, as opposed to allegations, over the issue.

Btw, Ukraine has Northern Bucovina, and the Romanians want it back, along with other territory that Khrushchev gave Ukraine.

Keeping obfuscationg, aren't you...
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« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2010, 08:54:13 AM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?

But they want to be autocephalous.

Yes, but maybe a RECOGNITION from the Church of Poland, of Romania, of ..., ..., ... would be a nice first step...
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« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2010, 12:36:57 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick
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« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2010, 12:41:19 PM »

Because they will have to deal with Moscow, who has the canons on their side.
The issue is more complex than that. And Constantinople still doesnt recognize Ukraine as Moscow's "canonical territory". From Constantinople's point of view, the MP in Ukraine is comparable to the MP in France or Australia.

Btw, Ukraine has Northern Bucovina, and the Romanians want it back, along with other territory that Khrushchev gave Ukraine.
I am not sure whether you are just misinformed, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts, but Romania has clearly stated that it has no territorial claims to Ukraine. (What many Romanian politicians do want, is to annex Moldova). Romanians in Ukraine have guaranteed minority rights, and both countries are fine with the current situation. (And so are Ukrainian Romanians themselves, because they make quite some money with smuggling Vodka and other things).

But they want to be autocephalous.
Yes, but they would accept a provisional autonomy under Constantinople in order to become canonical. So my point is: If it doesnt work with Constantinople, why not Romania or some other canonical church?

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.
You seem to be quite one-sided in this issue. Why dont you also tell the MP to cut out Russian nationalism?
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« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2010, 12:43:44 PM »

But they want to be autocephalous.
Yes, but they would accept a provisional autonomy under Constantinople in order to become canonical. So my point is: If it doesnt work with Constantinople, why not Romania or some other canonical church?

What is the difference between being autonomous under Moscow and Constantinople? Is Hellenisation better that Russification?
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« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2010, 12:46:53 PM »

What is the difference between being autonomous under Moscow and Constantinople? Is Hellenisation better that Russification?

There is no danger of hellenisation.  There are jurisdictions under Constantinople in Finland, Estonia and France (Rue Daru/Saint Serge), and they are not hellenized.
You should also know that Greece is not putting political pressure on Ukraine, and it is not using the church for such purposes either.

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« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2010, 12:52:06 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

It's the same as to say, "cut one half of your head off, and you will have solved the issue of hunger, cold, sickness and all other discomforts of this so-called life."

Both halves of my head are equally important to me, Orthodox and Ukrainian. And millions of others in Ukraine feel the same way. We are not putting any of these two halves ahead of the other.
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« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2010, 12:53:44 PM »

But they want to be autocephalous.
Yes, but they would accept a provisional autonomy under Constantinople in order to become canonical. So my point is: If it doesnt work with Constantinople, why not Romania or some other canonical church?

What is the difference between being autonomous under Moscow and Constantinople? Is Hellenisation better that Russification?

Because Moscow does not want independent Ukraine to exist. Constantinople simply does not care about this issue - Grreks aren't going to take over the Ukrainian national, cultural life.
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« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2010, 12:59:17 PM »

 
Quote
am not sure whether you are just misinformed, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts, but Romania has clearly stated that it has no territorial claims to Ukraine. (What many Romanian politicians do want, is to annex Moldova). Romanians in Ukraine have guaranteed minority rights, and both countries are fine with the current situation. (And so are Ukrainian Romanians themselves, because they make quite some money with smuggling Vodka and other things).
Ialmisry is just misinformed, probably: Romany and Ukraine have signed a "Basic Treaty" (Tratatul de baza romano-ucrainian) more than a decade ago (IIRC) by which all territorial claims were officially put to rest, except maybe, for the Snakes' Island.
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« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2010, 01:02:06 PM »

Quote
am not sure whether you are just misinformed, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts, but Romania has clearly stated that it has no territorial claims to Ukraine. (What many Romanian politicians do want, is to annex Moldova). Romanians in Ukraine have guaranteed minority rights, and both countries are fine with the current situation. (And so are Ukrainian Romanians themselves, because they make quite some money with smuggling Vodka and other things).
Ialmisry is just misinformed, probably: Romany and Ukraine have signed a "Basic Treaty" (Tratatul de baza romano-ucrainian) more than a decade ago (IIRC) by which all territorial claims were officially put to rest, except maybe, for the Snakes' Island.

He is "misinformed" in many other claims he is making, beginning from showing pictures from cartoonish Bolshevik propaganda and calling them "history."
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« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2010, 01:34:58 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

It's the same as to say, "cut one half of your head off, and you will have solved the issue of hunger, cold, sickness and all other discomforts of this so-called life."

Both halves of my head are equally important to me, Orthodox and Ukrainian. And millions of others in Ukraine feel the same way. We are not putting any of these two halves ahead of the other.

Well, then I suppose this will never be solved. What would the Eastern Ukrainians say about this? Have you ever asked their opinions or have you simply been talking to biased Western Ukrainians?
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« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2010, 03:08:05 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

O.K.  Then have the Patriarch of Moscow remove Russian nationalism from the Russian Orthodox Church and its branch in Ukraine.  The sword cuts both ways you see.  Either the Russian Orthodox Church makes an idol out of the Russian nation in the form of "Holy Russia" or the Third Rome, or it cuts such idolatry out and serves Christ first.  For instance, what was the purpose behind having the Russian Orthodox Church's hierarchy engage in Blessing the Anniversary of the start of the atheistic Soviet Regime's development of nuclear weapons recently, which nuclear weapons now are the Russian nuclear forces which missiles may be aimed at the posters here from North America, Poland, Europe.

Or how about this link from a Russian Orthodox Church's website in North America to a Russian Orthodox T.V. website.  The first video is in the middle of the page.

http://russtv.ru/content2/evabglie_mesta.shtml

What does this have to do with Orthodoxy?  Do you approve of Russian nationalism being a tenet of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Surely you cannot if you object to "Ukrainian nationalism" which in the context of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine may simply mean opposition to Russification.
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« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2010, 03:15:20 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

It's the same as to say, "cut one half of your head off, and you will have solved the issue of hunger, cold, sickness and all other discomforts of this so-called life."

Both halves of my head are equally important to me, Orthodox and Ukrainian. And millions of others in Ukraine feel the same way. We are not putting any of these two halves ahead of the other.

Well, then I suppose this will never be solved. What would the Eastern Ukrainians say about this? Have you ever asked their opinions or have you simply been talking to biased Western Ukrainians?

The division is not simply into Eastern vs. Western. There are people in Luhans'k and Donets'k who want Ukrainian language in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and there are people in Ternopil' and Uzh'horod who do not. It's not by territory - rather, by mentality. But the point is, the interests of those who are OK with UOC (MP) as it is now are not harmed. The interests of the other half of Ukrainians are. that's why I think that simply recognition of either UOC-KP, or UAOC, or both of them IN PARALLEL with the already existing canonical UOC will be a good solution. Nobody will forcefully drag Moscow-leaning Ukrainians into the REALLY Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdiction. Let them remain in their "U"OC.
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« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2010, 03:18:44 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

O.K.  Then have the Patriarch of Moscow remove Russian nationalism from the Russian Orthodox Church and its branch in Ukraine.  The sword cuts both ways you see.  Either the Russian Orthodox Church makes an idol out of the Russian nation in the form of "Holy Russia" or the Third Rome, or it cuts such idolatry out and serves Christ first.  For instance, what was the purpose behind having the Russian Orthodox Church's hierarchy engage in Blessing the Anniversary of the start of the atheistic Soviet Regime's development of nuclear weapons recently, which nuclear weapons now are the Russian nuclear forces which missiles may be aimed at the posters here from North America, Poland, Europe.

Or how about this link from a Russian Orthodox Church's website in North America to a Russian Orthodox T.V. website.  The first video is in the middle of the page.

http://russtv.ru/content2/evabglie_mesta.shtml

What does this have to do with Orthodoxy?  Do you approve of Russian nationalism being a tenet of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Surely you cannot if you object to "Ukrainian nationalism" which in the context of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine may simply mean opposition to Russification.

Good points.

Abot two months ago, people from the "U"OC were discussing a very "Orthodox" event that took place in Kyiv (the capital of Ukraine), called the Orthodox Ballroom Dance Contest. The participants-men were dressed in the imperial Russian Army uniforms, with 'axelbants" and chevrons showing rank of the Russian imperial army officers.

I must say, even some otherwise loyal to Moscow "U"OC priests were bewildered. But Russian "Orthodox" (Huh) newspapers triumphed.
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« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2010, 04:17:38 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

O.K.  Then have the Patriarch of Moscow remove Russian nationalism from the Russian Orthodox Church and its branch in Ukraine.  The sword cuts both ways you see.  Either the Russian Orthodox Church makes an idol out of the Russian nation in the form of "Holy Russia" or the Third Rome, or it cuts such idolatry out and serves Christ first.  For instance, what was the purpose behind having the Russian Orthodox Church's hierarchy engage in Blessing the Anniversary of the start of the atheistic Soviet Regime's development of nuclear weapons recently, which nuclear weapons now are the Russian nuclear forces which missiles may be aimed at the posters here from North America, Poland, Europe.

Or how about this link from a Russian Orthodox Church's website in North America to a Russian Orthodox T.V. website.  The first video is in the middle of the page.

http://russtv.ru/content2/evabglie_mesta.shtml

What does this have to do with Orthodoxy?  Do you approve of Russian nationalism being a tenet of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Surely you cannot if you object to "Ukrainian nationalism" which in the context of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine may simply mean opposition to Russification.

Whats the National Religion of Russia?

Now what's the National Religion of Ukraine?


Therein lies your answer.


-Nick
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« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2010, 04:28:09 PM »

Whats the National Religion of Russia?

Imperialism. Control of territories where "loyal" Russian-loving subjects are supposed to live.

Now what's the National Religion of Ukraine?

None that I know of.

Therein lies your answer.

To what question?
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« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2010, 04:59:05 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

In the meantime:

Because they will have to deal with Moscow, who has the canons on their side.
The issue is more complex than that. And Constantinople still doesnt recognize Ukraine as Moscow's "canonical territory". From Constantinople's point of view, the MP in Ukraine is comparable to the MP in France or Australia.

Since, although Ukraine is not within the internationally recognized borders of the Federation of Russia, ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus', on what basis would Constantinople have not to recognize Moscow jurisdiction over all of Ukraine?  On what basis would compare Ukraine to France or Australia?  For that matter, what jurisdiction does Constantinople have over France or Australia, let alone Ukraine?

What does "still" mean? From 1687? Or did you mean "any longer since 1991?"
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« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2010, 06:03:43 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police
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« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2010, 08:08:13 PM »

ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?


Really, I do not understand how people completely underlated to the question have so much contempt for Ukraine...
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