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Poll
Question: Is it proper for an Orthodox Christian to get a tattoo?
It's fine, nothing wrong with it. - 38 (23.6%)
They can if they want, but I wouldn't. - 26 (16.1%)
Only in some circumstances. - 18 (11.2%)
I don't think it's proper, no. - 33 (20.5%)
It is absolutely, positively sinful! - 11 (6.8%)
I'm not sure. - 32 (19.9%)
None of the above. - 3 (1.9%)
Total Voters: 161

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Author Topic: Orthodox Christians and Tattoos  (Read 48512 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #540 on: November 25, 2014, 01:31:53 PM »

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.

Trust me, livestock can be the SAME way.  I have a goat that is an awesome friend and pal.  It's not about the personality for me.  Besides Romans 14:14 clears this up anyway so...
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« Reply #541 on: November 25, 2014, 01:33:57 PM »

Not sure about the huge Biblical slug fest over "clean" and "unclean" foods but it is important to note that Biblical verses and passages can have multiple interpretations. It is not linear in the sense that if a passage says "X", then "X" is the only meaning and interpretation to be derived from the passage. There are other meanings within Scripture which means Acts 10 could refer to all animals being "clean" and therefore permitted for consumption or as St John Chrysostom puts it in his homilies, God commanding Peter to reach out to the Gentiles as I would cite from the Saint himself,

Quote
The earth then, this is what the linen sheet denotes, and the wild beasts in it, are they of the Gentiles, and the command, "Kill and eat," denotes that he must go to them also; and that this thing is thrice done, denotes baptism.

Read the whole homily here to better understand,

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/chrysostom/acts/10.htm

The problem with this comes when someone decides to be too narrow about a particular verse regarding a certain issue. It declares the permittence of the consumption of "unclean" animals whilst bearing the message of God exhorting Peter to reach out to the Gentiles.

Either way I love food even if it is "unclean" food but since the Lord Himself permitted Peter to kill and eat unclean beasts, then surely it is truly right and just to consume all the "unclean" shellfish, eel, insects and creatures that I relished and savor on multiple instances and occasions.
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« Reply #542 on: November 25, 2014, 01:40:33 PM »

With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.
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« Reply #543 on: November 25, 2014, 01:41:22 PM »

Do you follow all the OT laws or not? If not, why?
I'll jump on your question, but condensed.  Plz don't contort.

No.

I do not follow all the OT laws because many of them were overwritten.  Such as putting to death people for various sins.

I respect OT laws.  I try to follow what I can follow.  

The tattoo thing is simple.

Food seems like a gray area because we do hold certain foods as unclean -> like we don't want to eat a rat burger.  Some may see pork this way.   It's a gray area with gentiles because cultures will hold certain things as clean or unclean.   Like dog steaks here would be terrible.  Cow steaks in India would be taboo... etc.

But for tattoos, it's a very purposeful act.  You have to GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to get one.  Here in America, you typically would have to go to a tattoo parlor, pick out what you want or show a drawing, then go through the process & pay for it.  It's not like you just "happened upon it".    God told us not to get them in the OT.  While some people still do get them obviously they through Christ can achieve salvation.

Let me ask:: Do you LOVE God?   I mean really love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul?   I think we can follow the basis of OT law through the love of God.  I can't imagine in the OT God forbidding tattoos and in the NT your body is called "the temple of the Holy Spirit" and God wanting you to get tattoos.

It amazes me how many tattoo parlors are near bars, night clubs, liquor stores, and in shady areas of town.  (just an observation)


It sounds like you have a very arbitrary way of deciding what laws you do and do not follow.

That's why I asked.
I can understand why it sounds that way.    Text and forums don't explain enough and it's too long winded (or typed).

The OT law we do not have to follow for Salvation.  This is clear.
The OT law was called good and just in the NT.  This is also clearly written.

There are clearly OVERWRITTEN OT laws by God through his son Jesus Christ.

The law is a good thing to follow, such as the 10 commandments.

When God tells us not to put tattoo marks on our body in the Law, that was law.  The New Covenant (Jesus) case to FULFILL the law.  Some things were overwritten.  Some things seem like gray areas such as Romans 14:14.

Nothing in the NT talked directly about tattoos.   But do you really think God wants you to have one?


See you are seeing my viewpoint incorrectly.  Spiritually speaking, I would not get one because I would think God doesn't want me to based on his first law and because he called my body the temple of the Holy Spirit.   I would not get one for the love of God and respect.   Referencing that part of his law.  On a personal level, I would not get one because I do not personally like them and it would seem funky to not be able to wash something that was printed on/in my body off.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #544 on: November 25, 2014, 01:42:05 PM »

With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.

What does Romans 14:14 mean?  Please tell me.
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« Reply #545 on: November 25, 2014, 01:42:12 PM »

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.

Trust me, livestock can be the SAME way.  I have a goat that is an awesome friend and pal.  It's not about the personality for me.  Besides Romans 14:14 clears this up anyway so...

Attachments towards creatures and objects are only natural. However from an American social standpoint, dogs =/= livestock and therefore it would be wrong to consume it. Human beings have the tendency to "box" things up into various categories and properties. The same with dogs and cows. Besides the forms they take and the noises these two make, society would dictate the dog to be a "pet" and the cow to be "livestock" for consumption. It is not because of hygiene factors or Divine Command that Americans would be revolted at the thought of consuming dog meat.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 01:45:12 PM by sakura95 » Logged

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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #546 on: November 25, 2014, 01:50:01 PM »

With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.

What does Romans 14:14 mean?  Please tell me.
St. Paul is writing to the Christian in Rome, most of whom were of Jewish origin. He is telling them that although God has santified all things (food included), if there are people who cannot mentally get passed their ingrained belief in the Jewish law concerning ritually clean and unclean animals and food, then they should not eat the foods that the law deemed unclean because it would harm their conscience. That has nothing to do with whether you personally find a food to be disgusting. It would not, for example, be a proper understanding of this verse for my daughter to tell me that God does not want her to eat her vegetables because she considers them to be yucky and making her eat them would grieve her. A modern day example would be if a Muslim converted to Christianity, but the concept of eating pork was so ingrained into him/her that she could not do so without feeling guilty, it would be appropriate for that individual to abstain from pork even though it is not considered unclean under Christ.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 01:52:59 PM by TheTrisagion » Logged

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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #547 on: November 25, 2014, 03:12:17 PM »

With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.

What does Romans 14:14 mean?  Please tell me.
St. Paul is writing to the Christian in Rome, most of whom were of Jewish origin. He is telling them that although God has santified all things (food included), if there are people who cannot mentally get passed their ingrained belief in the Jewish law concerning ritually clean and unclean animals and food, then they should not eat the foods that the law deemed unclean because it would harm their conscience. That has nothing to do with whether you personally find a food to be disgusting. It would not, for example, be a proper understanding of this verse for my daughter to tell me that God does not want her to eat her vegetables because she considers them to be yucky and making her eat them would grieve her. A modern day example would be if a Muslim converted to Christianity, but the concept of eating pork was so ingrained into him/her that she could not do so without feeling guilty, it would be appropriate for that individual to abstain from pork even though it is not considered unclean under Christ.

It's ingrained in me the sae way.  I think God instilled in me that eating a dog is unclean.

Look if you want dogburgers or ratburgers, that's fine.  I will find them unclean on a personal level but believe that God cleaned all things. It's merely unclean to me.

Is that such a problem to you?  I don't find anything you eat as you eating unclean, it is just unclean for me to eat certain things on my own.
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« Reply #548 on: November 25, 2014, 03:14:24 PM »

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.

Trust me, livestock can be the SAME way.  I have a goat that is an awesome friend and pal.  It's not about the personality for me.  Besides Romans 14:14 clears this up anyway so...

Attachments towards creatures and objects are only natural. However from an American social standpoint, dogs =/= livestock and therefore it would be wrong to consume it. Human beings have the tendency to "box" things up into various categories and properties. The same with dogs and cows. Besides the forms they take and the noises these two make, society would dictate the dog to be a "pet" and the cow to be "livestock" for consumption. It is not because of hygiene factors or Divine Command that Americans would be revolted at the thought of consuming dog meat.

That is fine.  For me personally as an America and what I know, I do not eat dog because it is gross for me and unclean. 

I do not get tattoos because I believe God doesn't want me to go out of my way and get one, and would rather I respect the temple.
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« Reply #549 on: November 25, 2014, 03:34:40 PM »

With all seriousness, I will say that I would have no problem eating rat, dog, cat or mouse. The reason I do not is because I buy my food at a grocery store that does not stock such food. In foreign countries, I have eaten hamsters, octopus, llamas, and other strange animals. It doesn't bother me at all. You are confusing what you find to be distasteful as some sort of a spiritual sign from God that you shouldn't eat it. Those are two different things.
That's okay by me.  It's also very scriptural that you would eat these things and it would be clean to you.  Hopefully you gave thanks. (don't know your background).  

Personally for me, I would find these things unclean on a normal basis. But I disagree about distasteful (in flavor and ethic), it's not about taste.  I truly find rats as an unclean animal as well as dogs.  

With that said, I would eat these things especially if I was evangelizing to others and they were serving it to me.  I would receive with Thanksgiving and try not to gag on them to not cause offense.

Scripturally it says if something is unclean to me it is unclean.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For me I would hold Rats, dogs, cats, pigs, rabbits, catfish amongst several other animals as unclean.

I would hold animals such as cows, chickens, bass, goats, sheep (lamb sounds so good), ducks, buffalo amongst others as clean.

Much of the unclean I cited consume their own feces and feces of other animals.  This is a huge reason it grosses me out.  But this is personal (Romans 14:14).   Biblically though, and to not offend, if served one of these animals, I receive in Thanksgiving anyway.

To those who think these are clean animals, then they are clean.  

I just think the scriptures are clear on this.  

For tattoos, God didn't want us to get them in the OT.  Our bodies are referred to as the temple of the holy spirit in the NT.  Why go OUT OF OUR WAY to get a tattoo then?  It does not prevent salvation, but I lean on what I think God wants me to do.

Clean and unclean animals were not a commentary on their grooming or hygene habits, they were designations regarding their ritual suitability for use. The Bible is not saying, if you find animal yucky to eat, then you shouldn't eat them. I don't need divine inspiration that that piece of information. Animals were dividing into clean and unclean as a way of separating from the surrounding people. The same thing with tattoos and with trimming ones beard. They were given to the Jews to separate them from the Canaanites based on the cultural specificities of the day. You can't carry that over to 21st century and say it is the same thing. For example, the reason the Copts get tattoos is BECAUSE they are trying to remain separate from the world around them. I get the feeling that you try so hard to follow the letter of the law, but miss the entire purpose these things were dictated.

What does Romans 14:14 mean?  Please tell me.
St. Paul is writing to the Christian in Rome, most of whom were of Jewish origin. He is telling them that although God has santified all things (food included), if there are people who cannot mentally get passed their ingrained belief in the Jewish law concerning ritually clean and unclean animals and food, then they should not eat the foods that the law deemed unclean because it would harm their conscience. That has nothing to do with whether you personally find a food to be disgusting. It would not, for example, be a proper understanding of this verse for my daughter to tell me that God does not want her to eat her vegetables because she considers them to be yucky and making her eat them would grieve her. A modern day example would be if a Muslim converted to Christianity, but the concept of eating pork was so ingrained into him/her that she could not do so without feeling guilty, it would be appropriate for that individual to abstain from pork even though it is not considered unclean under Christ.

It's ingrained in me the sae way.  I think God instilled in me that eating a dog is unclean.

Look if you want dogburgers or ratburgers, that's fine.  I will find them unclean on a personal level but believe that God cleaned all things. It's merely unclean to me.

Is that such a problem to you?  I don't find anything you eat as you eating unclean, it is just unclean for me to eat certain things on my own.
I don't care at all what you eat or why you eat it. You asked me to explain the passage and I did. If you didn't want me to give an explanation of the passage, then don't ask me.  I do wonder, however, how this is any different than someone who says, I don't have any ingrained resistance to tattoos and the law given to the Jews is not applicable at this time, so therefore I will get a tattoo of a cross as an expression of my Christian faith. Somehow, this has become a problem for you where you feel the need to tell them that they are sinning by getting a tattoo. I know your whole argument about how getting a tattoo is something that you have to go out and proactively do, but that makes no difference in the philosophical discussion of whether a tattoo is inherently wrong or not. You may not want to put a cross on the Holy Spirit's temple that you have, but why tell someone else what they should and should not do.
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« Reply #550 on: November 25, 2014, 05:14:14 PM »

Paul's writings are difficult to understand - even to Peter.
2 Peter 3:16
The letters of Paul left a gray area, such as saying "to those who think something is unclean, it is unclean to them".   (but otherwise all things CAN be clean).   Do you eat dog?  Didn't think so..... It left room to spread Jesus Christ through the nations.  In Vietnam, people eat dog.  They don't see it as dirty of gross.  It's clean to them.  Unclean to most of us....  Same with circumcision.  The words clearly spell out this gray area.

Clearly in the New Testament, it talks about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.  This means it was designed by God exactly the way he wanted it. To go modify it with a tattoo (of your choice of course) doesn't seem to go with the flow of the New or Old Testament.

I am not Vietnamese but as someone from the same region as Vietnam, I can confirm that they do indeed consume Dog meat. Same as in China and if I'm not mistaken, Korea. But there's more unclean stuff than dog meat that is consumed in the Asian Continent such as the penises of various animals(I'm not making this up, I nearly ate one during a trip to China until my mom told me what it was), pig blood(It has the consistency of pudding and is chocolate in color), various insects( I consumed some of these delicacies on some occasions such as bee larvae in Taiwan and the larvae of some beetle from where I came from), shellfish(Prawns, crabs, jellyfish and anything from the sea without scales), turtles, frogs, snakes....etc

Odd that you have to pick the humble dog meat of all the other odd and "unclean" stuff that inhabitants of the Asian continent consume. I mean why not ask whether we eat the penis of some animal or coagulated wobbly pig blood. Dog meat is simply too ordinary to be mentioned.

Just to be clear I never consumed dog meat throughout my entire life. I can't say the same for the various non scaled creatures of the sea, pig's blood, turtles, frogs, insects...etc though.

If you really want to know the answer, I picked it because most Americans would find dog meat a immoral/gross/nasty/disgusting/ or "not right" thing to do.  This is because most Americans would find such a thing as "unclean" but they would not always say "unclean".

Also if I brought up penises, somebody would just say hot dogs, which have plenty of pork penises and snouts.  So does bologna.  Many here would just think "meh".   So to make the point, I had to mention an animal that most English speakers would be able to see.   Most would think eating a dog is just simply not right.

Yes you are right, there are worse things than dog.

Americans don't find eating Dog meat "unclean". The reason is that many have a form of emotional attachment towards dogs. They are beyond livestock to us they are almost like our companions and we shower them with our love by petting them, taking them for walks, playing with them...etc. With such activities a Dog is beyond livestock. It has become somewhat of a "friend" and nobody would want to kill a friend for the sake of consumption in normal circumstances. Hence, Americans would typically think that eating dog meat is wrong out of compassion and disgust for killing their canine friends not because it is deemed unclean by God or is just "dirty". I mean dog saliva is cleaner than human saliva when you think about it.

Hot Dogs are also just mere minced meat encased by a membrane of the intestinal wall. People here would simply use "hot dogs" in relation to penises as a joke given the very similar shape it takes.

Trust me, livestock can be the SAME way.  I have a goat that is an awesome friend and pal.  It's not about the personality for me.  Besides Romans 14:14 clears this up anyway so...

Attachments towards creatures and objects are only natural. However from an American social standpoint, dogs =/= livestock and therefore it would be wrong to consume it. Human beings have the tendency to "box" things up into various categories and properties. The same with dogs and cows. Besides the forms they take and the noises these two make, society would dictate the dog to be a "pet" and the cow to be "livestock" for consumption. It is not because of hygiene factors or Divine Command that Americans would be revolted at the thought of consuming dog meat.

That is fine.  For me personally as an America and what I know, I do not eat dog because it is gross for me and unclean. 

I do not get tattoos because I believe God doesn't want me to go out of my way and get one, and would rather I respect the temple.

Not getting a tattoo is fine but it doesn't automatically follow that getting or having one is morally wrong or is Sinful. Of course, you can say that you have a disgust for consuming dog meat but if you were born in Vietnam or China you might've said otherwise and who knows, find delight in the sensual pleasure of savoring the flavor and taste of the flesh of dog.

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« Reply #551 on: November 25, 2014, 05:29:18 PM »

How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  Wink


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« Reply #552 on: November 25, 2014, 05:45:04 PM »

How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  Wink


Selam
The real question is how will the tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics put up with the pious complainers who are constantly complaining to St. Peter about the second hand smoke.  Wink
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« Reply #553 on: November 25, 2014, 06:55:40 PM »

How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  Wink


Selam
The real question is how will the tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics put up with the pious complainers who are constantly complaining to St. Peter about the second hand smoke.  Wink

Indeed. I should have included that!


Selam
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« Reply #554 on: November 27, 2014, 08:12:04 AM »

Quote
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
This is what God said. It is LITERALLY God's words.  The question you must ask yourself is, has God cleansed food? What matter has God not cleansed? When Christ came to reconcile the world to God, what physical matter was exempted from that cleansing?  When you can show me the physical matter that God has not cleansed, then I will consider further your personal interpretation on this passage.

Yep.  It was God's words in Peter's vision that Peter said to the THREE men who were uncommon/unclean.  God did clean!  It was being clean three times of the three men...

Verse 28
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.



You like putting people down, don't you?
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« Reply #555 on: January 28, 2015, 10:04:18 PM »

How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  Wink


Selam

Love this ! Can I use this as a tag line in my e-mail?

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« Reply #556 on: January 28, 2015, 11:12:01 PM »

How will the pious abide the heavenly company of tattooed, weed smoking, Rastafarian, pacifist heretics? I imagine that God's grace will make it tolerable for them.  Wink


Selam

Love this ! Can I use this as a tag line in my e-mail?

Viking

Go for it!  Wink


Selam
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« Reply #557 on: January 28, 2015, 11:56:27 PM »

Honestly, I used to care about tattoos and think they were stupid, but honestly?

If the only thing a person  has done "wrong" if it is even wrong is to have tattoos, then that person is a much better person and Christian than I am.

Besides that, honestly, lot bigger things to worry about
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« Reply #558 on: Today at 03:16:25 PM »

Honestly, I used to care about tattoos and think they were stupid, but honestly?

If the only thing a person  has done "wrong" if it is even wrong is to have tattoos, then that person is a much better person and Christian than I am.

Besides that, honestly, lot bigger things to worry about

I keep mine covered not because I sinned in the past by getting them (which I've repented for) but because I don't want to give the temptation for others to sin by judging me. I know, you might say, "they shouldn't judge you anyway." That's easier said than done. If I can prevent that from happening all together by simply having on longer sleeves on my shirt, good.
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« Reply #559 on: Today at 05:08:50 PM »

Honestly, I used to care about tattoos and think they were stupid, but honestly?

If the only thing a person  has done "wrong" if it is even wrong is to have tattoos, then that person is a much better person and Christian than I am.

Besides that, honestly, lot bigger things to worry about

Honestly!?

I concur with that, honestly.
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