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Heorhij
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« on: August 19, 2010, 06:44:31 PM »

An Assault on the Soul

An open letter of Fr. Peter Vintsukevich to His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All-Russia, +KIRILL

Your Holiness,

I am writing in Russian so that you could understand me better. First of all, please let me introduce myself. I am an Orthodox Christian, and a former inmate of Stalin’s forced labor camps. In the mid-1990-s, I was the Provost of the Volyn’ Spiritual Seminary of the UOC-KP.

Yes! In a way you and I are classmates. I was honored to take classes in the same institution you took classes: in the Leningrad Spiritual Academy of the Russian Orthodox Church! Unfortunately, soon after I was admitted, I was expelled, because, as a former political prisoner, I had no right to obtain a residential permit in a big city of the USSR. Yet, I still managed to graduate from the Academy, with a degree of Div.D., in another place – in the Catacomb Church of Patriarch Tikhon. There are rumors that you, too, were somehow “persecuted,” although it did not prevent you from making a brilliant career very fast. I am sorry that I called you my classmate. Believe me, I reminded you that you and I used to go to the same school not because I wanted to share in your glory. It’s just so that you will know that I know the Church history, the Christian theology and the Canon Law just like you know them, not any less. So our conversation might become serious. Of course, you are free to not engage in polemics with some former jail bird like myself. Well, maybe you might pass this to one of your Metropolitans, +NIKON (he is from Ukraine, from the Volyn oblast!), and then maybe he will object to what I will be saying; that’s what I hope so much.

Your Holiness! In your sermons delivered in the Odesa, Dnipropetrovs’k, and Kyiv, you talked so much about the “fact” that our (Ukrainian and Russian) nations are the same one nation. You also talked so much about canonicity, and about repentance. So may I just split this really big topic into three. There is: (1) history, (2) Canon Law, and (3) ethics.

Let us begin with history. The whole point, made by you in your sermons, boils down to the following: because we, Ukrainians and Russians, are actually one people (or one nation), the claims of Ukrainians that they are entitled to their own Orthodox jurisdiction make no sense. Let me point it out straight away that the thesis that Ukrainians and Russians are the same people (or nation) has absolutely no scientific basis. From the point of view of ethnicity, our two peoples have always been exactly that – two different peoples, never the same one people. We, Ukrainians, happened to be occupied by a neighbor, who was, militarly, stronger than we were, and we have been lingering in this state of being occupied, which we hated, for about 300 years. The argument that we, Ukrainians and Russians, by our own good will, were “voluntarily” “re-united,” is a fairy tale, because the moment Ukraine agreed to come under the Moscow’s “protection” (in 1654), the Ukrainian home rule (Het’man’s rule) was destroyed, and so were the Cossack army, the printing of books in the Ukrainian language, the national culture and, finally, our most ancient among the Eastern Slavic peoples Church Metropoly. All that, including the latter, was done in a most brutal and cunning, trust-breaking, deceitful fashion. That’s what this so-called “being re-united” actually was.

Let’s see; in the first place, were we, Ukrainians and Russians, really related in terms of “blood” (ethnicity)? Well, look at the map of Eastern Europe of the 9th – 10th centuries. It tells you that Slavic tribes – Polyany, Drevlyany, Dregovychy, Radymychy, Kryvychy, Polochany, Volynyany, - inhabited what is now Ukraine and Belarus. To the east and to the north of them, there were Ugro-Finnish tribes with their entirely different language and culture; Chud’, Ves’, Merya, Cheremisy, Mordva, Perm’, Yam, and others. Nestor the Chronicle-Writer indicates exactly that (see “The Chronicle of Times,” chapter 25, paragraph 6). Those tribes had absolutely no relation to Slavs. They were not very highly developed socially and they had no government or administration of their own that would be in any way sustainable. So, they had to invite Scandinavians to rule over them (“come and rule us”). Yet, Kyiv Rus’ had no need in the “help” of this kind. By that time (9th – 10th centuries), it became so powerful as a state of Europe that it threatened even the Byzantine Empire. Sadly, in a few decades, Prince Oleg, a Scandinavian, treacherously murdered Kyiv princes Askol’d and Dir and conquered Kyiv. Yet, your Metropolitan +AGATHANGEL says, “”The Kyiv Rus’ has ALWAYS been ONE with the Great Russia (i.e. with what was to the northeast of it). Kyiv (or, as he writes “Kiev”) without the Great Russia, in the state of separation from her, can not be conceived in any case.” But… isn’t it just ridiculous? Just look – there was NO “Great Russia” in the 9th – 10th century; in fact, there was NO “RUSSIA” WHATSOEVER!!! What really existed, was Kyivan Rus’ and her people – Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. the present-day Ukrainians and Belarussians). So, what exactly is it – stupidity? Complete ignorance? Or Ukrainophobia that simply cannot be stopped? I think it’s a mixture of all three. Stupidity always marches together with hatred and haughtiness.

OK, now let’s look at this situation from a different angle. If you Russians and we Ukrainians really are one people – why, then, did you keep annihilating us by millions? You were busy destroying our authentic culture. You imprisoned scores of our patriots and had them rot. You executed us with artificial starvation. You used all means possible to destroy us, and you continue to use the means that you consider possible still! Just ask people in the Russian heartland, how do they feel about Ukraine. Of course you will hear: “Urrgh, these Khokhly, these Banderites.” This is what your statistics says: 60% of Russian citizens consider Ukraine to be evil. Just like one hero of a Dostoyevsky novel said: “I have done this man so much evil, that’s why I hate him.” You hate us, because you have done quite a lot of evil to us.

But let us continue our historical overview. Later, in the 12th – 13th centuries, because of peculiar historical circumstances (fighting between feudal lords, Mongol-Tatar onslaught), Slavs began to oose into the lands to the east and north from Kyiv Rus’ – and so the Slavic blood began to penetrate into the veins of the above-mentioned Ugro-Finnish tribes. When Mongols destroyed Kyiv (in the 1240-s), the center of the social and political life of Eastern Slavs migrated to a more isolated and protected Northeast, and so the gradual growth of Moscow began. From us, from Kyiv Rus’, your people received the Slavic blood, the Christian faith and the education of the populace. Do you need me to tell you about who were the first Enlighteners of your lands? I don’t think so. I’ll just mention a few, in passing: +PETER, Metropolitan of Muscovy – a native of the Volyn Region of what is now Ukraine; +IOASAPH of “Begorod” (actually Bilhorod, Ukraine); +INNOCENT of Irkutsk – also a Ukrainian; +STEPHAN (Yavors’kyj) – also a Ukrainian, from Halychyna, Western Ukraine; +THEOPHAN (Prokopovych) – also a Ukrainian; even M.V. Lomonosov (a Russian, from Arkhangel’sk, the founder of the Moscow State University), not being an ethnic Ukrainian, got his education… again, in Ukraine!!!

Yes… as you say, Kyiv is the “mother of the cities of Rus’.” And how did you treat your Mother? You devastated and humiliated her from day one, once you came to have your military power.

Let me just give one exmple. In 1169, on the second week of the Great Lent, a son of Yuriy Dolgorukiy (the founder of Moscow) set the city of Kyiv on fire, which completely destroyed it. His troops massacred about one half of all Kyivites. According to Kostomarov, a historian, there was no mercy to anyone – neither to the old, nor to the little children, nor to churches, nor to monasteries; the city was looted, and everything was taken from it including Holy Icons, priestly garments, and church bells; and one famous icon, called the Most Holy Mother of God of Vysh’horod, was also stolen and never returned. Yes, for some weird reason, it is generally known as “yours,” and called the Most Holy Mother of God of Vladimir! But that’s how you always behaved. You took what you wanted. And that commander of the army of thieves, that murderer, prince Andrew “Bogolubskiy” (which means “who loves God!”), - you canonized him because, well, he… prayed! But look, in 1569 tzar Ivan the Terrible literally drowned the freedom-loving city of Novgorod in the blood of its citizens, and then took a long, long time to pray. Why not canonize him, too? And why not canonize emperor Peter I, and Stalin? After all, these, also, did a lot to “increase the might of Russia.” Also, you say that since the time of your invasion, you built a lot. Yes, you did build a lot, using our hands. St. Petersburg stands on the bones of many thousands of our Ukrainian Cossacks, whom you disarmed, enslaved and worked to death. Even to this day, those hands of Ukrainian folks, the hands that are accustomed to work, pump your Tyumen’ oil, and do many other things in your country. But enough history. History, as the saying goes, “is not about what we used to wear – rather, it is about how you stripped us naked.” That sums up the entire Ukrainian experience.

Let me now turn to another item, the Canon Law. Just what is the logic used by “spiritual fathers” from Moscow in this regard?

The Orthodox Church of Poland, which has less than 200,000 faithful, has received autocephaly. Why, then, none was granted to the nation that counts over 50 million people and has its own independent state, the nation that has a colossal authentic culture – the Ukrainian nation?

They say: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has no autocephaly, because to get one, this Church must receive the approval of the Mother Church.

But wait. The Metropoly of Kyiv – the most ancient of all on the teritory of the Kyivan Rus’ – has always been the spiritual Mother of all Eastern Slavs. So how could it happen that Her actual DAUGHTER, the Metropoly of Moscow, became Her Mother, while the real Mother became… a slave?

Well. Everyone knows, indeed, how it happened. And you, Your Holiness, most certainly know it. And the Eastern Prelates, whom you have bought, know it - and look away, being ashamed because they know precisely, how injust this whole thing was, and is. It was very simple. “You sell. I buy.”

After the so-called “re-unification” (1654), the mighty barons of Muscovy were not satisfied that they had captured the secular power all over Ukraine. They needed the soul of the Ukrainian people. Where is this soul? Of course, in the Church. So, the government of the Tzar, and the Patriarch of Moscow – by that time, the Metropoly of Moscow had already morphed into “Patriarchy,” by the way, also due to the means that had been, well, questionable… - raised the issue of subjugating the Kyiv Metropoly to Moscow. In 1686, a delegation led by Nikita Alekseev went to Constantinople, with the goal to extract the endorsement of Eastern Prelates for the liquidation of the Kyiv ecclesiastical authonomy. The Patriarch of Constantinople, +DIONISIUS, was showered with rich gifts, and he gave in. In less than one year after this shameful deal, the Patriarch was convicted of simony and defrocked. Yet, the decision to get rid of the ecclesiastically autonomous Orthodox jurisdiction with the center in Kyiv stayed. Now, we ask you: was this decision an act that was in line with the Canon Law? Was it in line with any law? You won’t answer, of course. But you know, with what ease has the Daughter bought the right to be “known” as “Mother,” and also just what she did with her actual Mother – robbed her, humiliated her, deprived her of everything and is still keeping the Mother in outrageous captivity, spiritual slavery.  

OK, these are events of old. Yet, now, today – does Ukraine have the right to Orthodox ecclesiastical autonomy (or Autocephly), being an independent state as she is? The answer is, undoubtedly, YES. Moscow, on the other hand, has no canonical right to hold Ukrainian Orthodox faithful under her fold, save for purely political reasons of the Kremlin team. It means that you, Your Holiness, are a part of this team and the thing you do is not of God, but of the Tsar!

Let me remind our readers that the Canon Law is a sum total of judicial norms of life of the Church, which emerges from the Apostolic rules, as well as from documents of the Ecumenical Councils. The rule number 34 from the Apostolic Canons says that each nation must have its own Primate, its own first (or most senior) Hierarch; that, actually, means that a sovereign nation does have the ecclesiastical right to have her own independent ecclesiastical jurisdiction. The rule number 17 of the 4th Ecumenical Council and the rule number 38 of the 6th Ecumenical Council say that each nation, when it acquires its own independent state, is eligible for having its own independent Church (or jurisdiction). Let me quote the latter rule for you, in a Church Slavonic translation: «Аще царскою властию, вновь устроен, или впредь устроен будет град: то гражданским и земским распределениям да следует и распределение церковных дел» (in English: “If a city or country, with the power of this city’s or country’s ruler was newly established, or will be established in the future, let these civic innovations be followed by granting authority (to this newly independent civic formation) of its own ecclesiastical affairs.”)

One might ask: so, what else is needed? This Rule 38 is written in such a way that it’s as if it was written specifically for Ukraine. But it looks like there are no laws for Moscow. Those in Moscow know only one thing: the Khokhly (a demeaning name for Ukrainians. – GP) must always be under their thumb. Forever.

Generally speaking, are these Canon Laws perfect? You yourself know very well that many of them are antiquated, make no sense anymore, and that even those rules that could regulate the life of the Church aren’t really observed by anyone. Buu that’s an entirely separate conversation. The Canons are the thing made by human hands, they were written with a certain political situation in mind. For example, the 7th ruling of the First Ecumenical Council says that the primacy of honor belongs to the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Perhaps that’s how it should be, because our Lord Jesus Christ suffered and rose from the dead in Jerusalem, and it is from Jerusalem that the Gospel began to spread. However, the 3rd ruling of the Second Ecumenical Council states that the primacy of honor belongs to the Patriarch of Constantinople. Why? Very simple: the political situation in the world changed. Jerusalem became weak and Byzantium became strong.

Maybe it was the Lord Who appointed the Patriarch of Constantinople to be the Ecumenical Patriarch, and so this person is eligible to grant autocephaly to one jurisdiction and not to grant it into another. But we all know that in this issue, what decides is the “generous gift,” or, simply put, a bribe. Don’t you know how much does your Patriarchy pay him so that he would carry your politics? And note, he has been denying you canonicity for 141 years. Was it just? And why should we actually bow to all these Eastern prelates? Just our Kyiv Orthodox jurisdiction has more bishops than the Ecumenical Patriarch has parishes…

While Canoins are written by men, the Grace is shed by God. So in vain do your subordinates keep saying that we are “graceless.” If Grace only comes to those deemed “canonical,” then your Patriarchy, obviously, has been “graceless” for 141 years. But didn’t the great men of God from your Patriarchy prove otherwise? I think we should stop talking about Canons. I have perhaps tired you, Your Holiness. However, to conclude, I would like to talk about yet another thing.

Your Holiness! On the Volodymyrs’ka Hirka Hill in Kyiv, you urged us to repent. Yes, you are right: repentance is not weakness; it is a great spiritual strength. It is capable of renewing not only a person but the entire society as well. Yet, I think repentance should begin with oneself – that’s what our Savior taught us. So, will you please begin this good work on behalf of yourself and your nation?

Please repent that three hundred years ago you, in a lawless fashion, using bribery, blackmail, and treachery subjugated the most ancient Metropoly on the territory of Eastern Slavs. That for the entire three hundred years you have been humiliating us, destroying our culture, banning our language, made our children die in your imperialistic wars. Repent for the Solovki, for the dungeons for our patriots, for the GULAG, for the Holodomor, - for everything, everything! You, indeed, you, must ask forgiveness of the Ukrainian people, and other peoples, for your imperialistic takeovers. You must ask forgiveness of the Polish people because your fathers shot twenty thousand Polish prisoners near Smolensk. You must ask forgiveness of Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholics, because the NKVD people, in agreement with you, made their priests rot in prisons. Can you personally ask this forgiveness? Can you personally show an example of a Christian humbleness and repentance? Just listen to the voice of your wonderful poet:

“Pray, repent, raise your hands to the heaven!
For all the sins of the days of old,
For all the warmongering of Cain that you have been doing
Ever since you were in your infancy!”

But no, this will never happen. Moscow never apologizes for whatever awful thing it has done. As your saying goes, “Moscow has no trust in tears.” Should maybe we repent? But we never destroyed your culture – we enriched it; we never deported you to Siberia, we never executed you by starvation, we never trampled on your freedom. Ah, well, I know, you will say that all those things were done not by you, but by Bolsheviks. So, were the Bolsheviks some sort of nomadic tribes who invaded our land and drowned it in blood? Let me remind you the words – not of some Banderite, but of your Russian philosopher, Nicholas Berdyaev, who wrote that “Bolshevism is a Russian national phenomenon” (see his “Sources and Meaning of the Russian Communism”).

I ask myself often, what is it that binds your clergy together with Communists? Indeed, the facts are out there and they are so conspicuous. The collaboration between the Patriarchy of Moscow and the theomachian political party has been going on for 85 years, beginning from Bp. +SERGIUS (Stargorodsky) to this day. Just how telling is this speech of Patriarch +ALEXIUS I, said near the coffin of Stalin:

“Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin, the Great Leader of our nation, is no longer with us. His enormous moral, society-oriented strength is gone, and our nation saw in that strength its own strength… It is due to his high authority that so much good, so much benefitial has been done to our Church by our Government… He remains unforgettable, and our Russian Orthodox Church sends Her farewell to him, for the last time, letting him go “the way of all flesh,” with a passionate prayer… To our beloved, unforgettable Iosif Vissarionovich we, sincerely, prayerfully, with passionate love, say: ‘Memory Eternal!’ “ (see “Journal of the Moscow Patriarchy,” 1953, #4).

Now, this was said by a man who himself spend quite a time in Stalin’s forced labor camps. It looks like there is some truth in the saying: “A dog who was beaten serves his owner better.” What a stinking piece of garbage! Look, - aren’t you ashamed of your Moscow Patriarchy?

Little has changed since that time. The collaboration between your hierarchs and Communists carries on. I can’t forget how one of your metropolitans, +AGATHANGEL, while being a member of the Parliament, defended the Communist empire and insisted that the monument of Lenin in the centre of Kyiv must be protected from our Ukrainian patriots who wanted to dismantle it? And just how many times did +AGATHANGEL vote together with the Red Atheists? One priest from your Patriarchy put an icon showing big image of Stalin in his church’s iconostasis. Don’t you remember that? A protopresbyter named Fr. Dmitriy Gaponov, from Donets’k, used to claim that no difference at all ever existed between Marxism and Christianity. Is that your opinion as well? And Metr. +VOLODYMYR (Sabodan), also from your Patriarchy, gave a high-ranking award to the First Communist of Ukraine, Petro Symonenko. For what good done by this man to the Church? And one of your most passionate sidekicks, Nataliya Vitrenko (the leader of the so-called “Party of Progressive Socialists” – GP), who says that she is “very Orthodox,” puts flowers to the monument of Lenin each time she arrives to Kyiv – to the monument of this harshest of all enemies of Christ. Is this the Orthodoxy you preside over? Why, why all this is happening? The answer is simple: because Communists dream about the restoration of their political empire, and you dream about restoration of your spiritual empire. Therefore, your interests match. And just what color will the empire be – Red, White – has a very secondary importance.

One more thing that I want to ask you. Why do you hold on to us, Ukrainians, so strongly? Why do you want to be our benefactor, above all? I have lived in Russia for 15 years. I traveled over many of Russia’s regions on foot, and I saw pretty much the same picture everywhere: church buildings that were demolished or “beheaded,” some of them turned into public toilets by your “God-chosen people.” You will never see anything like that in Central and Western Ukraine. In our land, every village has its own church building, whose interior is neatly decorated by embroidered clothes or towels. The city of Luts’k has about 200,000 people, but we have about thirty church buildings, and all of them are packed with faithful every single Sunday. On the other hand, in the heartland of Russia it may well be that there is one church building for the whole vast administrative district (“rayon”), and even that one church is empty always. That’s where you should apply your spiritual energy, your pastoral strength! Teach your people at least to have some respect for their holy places! And there is no need to teach us, Ukrainians, our faith – Ukraine has been, and is, praying.

As I am approaching the end of my letter, you are flying back to Moscow. Probably, you are recalling the events of your visit, and you flatter yourself that you have seen and understood Ukraine. No, you havent. All you saw was your own escort, the “paratroopers” that were closely following you from Moscow; a bunch of hysterical or psychotic old women who use to flock to the Lavra Monastery, and a bunch of politicians ready to sell themseves to the highest bidder. Those people you always have at hand. But not real Ukraine – you never saw her. You could have seen her if, for example, you visited our land during the Orange Revolution. Well, maybe you will still see her, God willing.

Your visit is a next assault on our soul.

Your Holiness, our strife is a long one, and it takes a lot of strength; but we will always be getting it. And you know, who will win? No, not those who will be in a more advantageous political or economical situation, and not those who will secure the support of all Eastern Prelates or even the entire world Orthodoxy. Those will be victorious who will deliver more of the passionate prayers to the Throne of the Almighty. Those who, by the way they live their lives, will show more truth, faith, hope, and love. At the final reckoning, the millions of those innocents whom you murdered will be victorious, because their blood cries out to the Lord. Remember, there will be the Judgment of God. Ukraine is praying.

http://www.pravoslavja.lutsk.ua/dokumenty/dokument/?newsid=1668

Translation from the original Russian, Heorhij
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 07:04:44 PM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2010, 11:39:27 PM »

So it's been like this for how long now? Nearly 1000 years? Perhaps the Ecumenical Patriarch can address the issue when he convenes the great council he has been planning. What about the people of Ukraine? Perhaps they should petition the Ecumenical Patriarch so that the matter of autocephaly for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church can be addressed at the great council when it is finally held?

I am not sure if I understand the purpose of the letter from Fr. Peter. Surely he knows his letter will change nothing and can only serve to incite more divisive sentiment. It is good to know some of the details of the history, but the matter should be brought to the EP, and perhaps not so much to Patriarch Kyrill.
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 04:57:48 AM »

Thank you for the translation, Heorhij. While I may disagree with Fr. Peter on many points it was extremely interesting to hear the non-Russian perspective on the issue. Smiley

Quote from: Fr. Peter[/quote
While Canoins are written by men, the Grace is shed by God. So in vain do your subordinates keep saying that we are “graceless.”

So does the MP say that non-Russian Ukrainian church's sacraments are graceless?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 04:59:21 AM by Alpo » Logged
Heorhij
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 08:22:06 AM »

So it's been like this for how long now? Nearly 1000 years? Perhaps the Ecumenical Patriarch can address the issue when he convenes the great council he has been planning. What about the people of Ukraine? Perhaps they should petition the Ecumenical Patriarch so that the matter of autocephaly for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church can be addressed at the great council when it is finally held?

I am not sure if I understand the purpose of the letter from Fr. Peter. Surely he knows his letter will change nothing and can only serve to incite more divisive sentiment. It is good to know some of the details of the history, but the matter should be brought to the EP, and perhaps not so much to Patriarch Kyrill.

Perhaps. But maybe sometimes it is better to be divisive than to be pretending that there is peace (Jeremiah 8:11). And if Fr. V. is right and it is true that HH +KIRILL is paying to HAH, then bringing this matter to HAH is useless - the only thing that can be of some use is just disseminating of this information among the Orthodox faithful of the world...
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 08:27:20 AM »

So does the MP say that non-Russian Ukrainian church's sacraments are graceless?

Yes; I personally saw in two "UOC" (in fact MP) churches in Kyiv a sign that said, "We will not pray for unbaptised, for the Heterodox, for those who committed suicide, and for schismatics (Filaretian and other); such prayers would be meaningless." Maybe not every single priest in this jurisdiction, but quite a lot of them teach their flock that no Holy Mystery in the parish "seized" by "schismatics" has any grace. Nataliya Vitrenko, the leader of the Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine and the chairperson of the so-called "Association of the Ukrainian Orthodox Women of Ukraine" (the person to whom Fr. V. refers as to the one who always lays flowers to the monument of Lenin) said recently that if you enter the Filaretian parish and lite a candle there, it means nothing because that's just a candle and no "signal" is going from it to God.  Shocked
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 08:33:03 AM »

So it's been like this for how long now? Nearly 1000 years?

Well, at least 324 years - since the act of simony of 1686, for which Patr. +DIONISIUS was dethroned and defrocked, although his decision to make the Kyiv Metropoly into a subservient "daughter" of the Moscow Patriarchy stayed.
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2010, 09:11:42 AM »

Thank you for the translation, Heorhij. While I may disagree with Fr. Peter on many points it was extremely interesting to hear the non-Russian perspective on the issue. Smiley

Quote from: Fr. Peter
While Canoins are written by men, the Grace is shed by God. So in vain do your subordinates keep saying that we are “graceless.”

So does the MP say that non-Russian Ukrainian church's sacraments are graceless?

EDIT: Nope, it didn't quite work out. Today's lesson is that do NOT try to modify too old message.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 09:20:16 AM by Alpo » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 09:15:44 AM »

So it's been like this for how long now? Nearly 1000 years? Perhaps the Ecumenical Patriarch can address the issue when he convenes the great council he has been planning. What about the people of Ukraine? Perhaps they should petition the Ecumenical Patriarch so that the matter of autocephaly for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church can be addressed at the great council when it is finally held?

I am not sure if I understand the purpose of the letter from Fr. Peter. Surely he knows his letter will change nothing and can only serve to incite more divisive sentiment. It is good to know some of the details of the history, but the matter should be brought to the EP, and perhaps not so much to Patriarch Kyrill.

Perhaps. But maybe sometimes it is better to be divisive than to be pretending that there is peace (Jeremiah 8:11). And if Fr. V. is right and it is true that HH +KIRILL is paying to HAH, then bringing this matter to HAH is useless - the only thing that can be of some use is just disseminating of this information among the Orthodox faithful of the world...

What is the name of that Ruthenian bishop/priest who is fighting a similar battle for Carpatho-Russia against Kiev?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 09:16:39 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 09:18:45 AM »

So does the MP say that non-Russian Ukrainian church's sacraments are graceless?

Sorry, I did not get your question from the first time - are you asking whether Patr. +KIRILL personally says it? I am not sure, I'll ask.
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2010, 09:20:13 AM »

So it's been like this for how long now? Nearly 1000 years? Perhaps the Ecumenical Patriarch can address the issue when he convenes the great council he has been planning. What about the people of Ukraine? Perhaps they should petition the Ecumenical Patriarch so that the matter of autocephaly for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church can be addressed at the great council when it is finally held?

I am not sure if I understand the purpose of the letter from Fr. Peter. Surely he knows his letter will change nothing and can only serve to incite more divisive sentiment. It is good to know some of the details of the history, but the matter should be brought to the EP, and perhaps not so much to Patriarch Kyrill.

Perhaps. But maybe sometimes it is better to be divisive than to be pretending that there is peace (Jeremiah 8:11). And if Fr. V. is right and it is true that HH +KIRILL is paying to HAH, then bringing this matter to HAH is useless - the only thing that can be of some use is just disseminating of this information among the Orthodox faithful of the world...

What is the name of that Ruthenian bishop/priest who is fighting a similar battle for Carpatho-Russia against Kiev?

I don't know. How can such "battle" be possible if the Patriarchy of Kyiv is still not even recognized?
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2010, 09:26:21 AM »

Quote from: Heorhij
Sorry, I did not get your question from the first time - are you asking whether Patr. +KIRILL personally says it? I am not sure, I'll ask.

I was asking what's the official policy of the MP about non-Russian Ukrainian Churches' sacraments. Does the MP officially see them as graceless? And now that you said that I'm also interested what's the patriarch Kirill's opinion on the issue if the MP hasn't made any official declerations on the issue.
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2010, 09:30:05 AM »

So does the MP say that non-Russian Ukrainian church's sacraments are graceless?

Yes; I personally saw in two "UOC" (in fact MP) churches in Kyiv a sign that said, "We will not pray for unbaptised, for the Heterodox, for those who committed suicide, and for schismatics (Filaretian and other); such prayers would be meaningless." Maybe not every single priest in this jurisdiction, but quite a lot of them teach their flock that no Holy Mystery in the parish "seized" by "schismatics" has any grace. Nataliya Vitrenko, the leader of the Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine and the chairperson of the so-called "Association of the Ukrainian Orthodox Women of Ukraine" (the person to whom Fr. V. refers as to the one who always lays flowers to the monument of Lenin) said recently that if you enter the Filaretian parish and lite a candle there, it means nothing because that's just a candle and no "signal" is going from it to God.  Shocked

They say the same about all sacraments outside the Church.
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2010, 09:55:22 AM »

I might get around to the rest of this, but this caught my eye:

Your Holiness! On the Volodymyrs’ka Hirka Hill in Kyiv, you urged us to repent. Yes, you are right: repentance is not weakness; it is a great spiritual strength. It is capable of renewing not only a person but the entire society as well. Yet, I think repentance should begin with oneself – that’s what our Savior taught us. So, will you please begin this good work on behalf of yourself and your nation?..Repent...for the Holodomor, - for everything, everything! You, indeed, you, must ask forgiveness of the Ukrainian people.

The Holodomor?

The death by starvation happened 1932–1933. At least that is the conventional dating. At that time there was no Patriarch of Moscow: the Bolsheviks made sure of that, deposing and martyring Patriarch St. Tikhon and handing the Church over to control by the zombie "Living Church [sic]", which declaired excommunicate those in communion with th Patriarchal Church.  Maybe they can dig up one of those (in manner of the Ukrainian self-consecrated dead handers) "bishops" of the "Living Church" now dead (Met. Nikolai Platonov of Leningrad comes to mind), and he can apologize.

Looking at a map that documents it:

one sees it extended out of Ukraine, and yet did hit "New Russia" (the area that was added to what is now Ukraine by Czarine Catherine the Great and her favorite Potemkin, IIRC both of whom Ukrainian nationalists hate) in present day Ukraine-the Dombass region where most Russians live in Ukraine (outside of Kiev).


It seems that many Ukrainians have gone the way of the Austrians, who portray themselves as the first victims of Nazism, led by the Austrian Adolf Hitler.  (yes, Goodwin! Goodwind! given the racist arguments on ancestry in the letter, it was bound to come up sooner or later. Might as well get it out of the way).  There were plenty of Ukrainian Bolsheviks like Khrushchev.
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2010, 10:30:41 AM »

So it's been like this for how long now? Nearly 1000 years? Perhaps the Ecumenical Patriarch can address the issue when he convenes the great council he has been planning. What about the people of Ukraine? Perhaps they should petition the Ecumenical Patriarch so that the matter of autocephaly for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church can be addressed at the great council when it is finally held?

I am not sure if I understand the purpose of the letter from Fr. Peter. Surely he knows his letter will change nothing and can only serve to incite more divisive sentiment. It is good to know some of the details of the history, but the matter should be brought to the EP, and perhaps not so much to Patriarch Kyrill.

Perhaps. But maybe sometimes it is better to be divisive than to be pretending that there is peace (Jeremiah 8:11). And if Fr. V. is right and it is true that HH +KIRILL is paying to HAH, then bringing this matter to HAH is useless - the only thing that can be of some use is just disseminating of this information among the Orthodox faithful of the world...

What is the name of that Ruthenian bishop/priest who is fighting a similar battle for Carpatho-Russia against Kiev?

I don't know. How can such "battle" be possible if the Patriarchy of Kyiv is still not even recognized?
before the recent regime change in Kiev.

The priest's name is Fr. Dmitry Sidor
Ukraine`s minority seeks autonomy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGE9aTIP9jI&NR=1
Will Andy Warhols people survive in Ukraine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW6TFUoHuZs&feature=related
where Rusyn refugees from Ukraine who have fled to Hungary.
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2010, 11:04:07 AM »

To Ialmisry: "There were plenty of Ukrainian Bolsheviks like Khrushchev."

Khrushchev was an ethnic Russian. Ethnic Ukrainian Bolsheviks were Chubar, Korotchenko, et al. Kosior (the First Secretary of the Central Committee of Ukrainian SSR at the time of the Holodomor) was a Ukrainianized ethnic Pole.

Still, Berdyaev probably had a point when he wrote that "Bolshevism was a NATIONAL Russian phenomenon." After all, the world headquarters of this movement were in Moscow, in the Kremlin, where all the commands, including to deprive Ukrainian peasants of everything edible and to starve them to death, came from.
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2010, 11:06:07 AM »

I might get around to the rest of this, but this caught my eye:

Your Holiness! On the Volodymyrs’ka Hirka Hill in Kyiv, you urged us to repent. Yes, you are right: repentance is not weakness; it is a great spiritual strength. It is capable of renewing not only a person but the entire society as well. Yet, I think repentance should begin with oneself – that’s what our Savior taught us. So, will you please begin this good work on behalf of yourself and your nation?..Repent...for the Holodomor, - for everything, everything! You, indeed, you, must ask forgiveness of the Ukrainian people.

The Holodomor?

The death by starvation happened 1932–1933. At least that is the conventional dating. At that time there was no Patriarch of Moscow: the Bolsheviks made sure of that, deposing and martyring Patriarch St. Tikhon and handing the Church over to control by the zombie "Living Church [sic]", which declaired excommunicate those in communion with th Patriarchal Church.  Maybe they can dig up one of those (in manner of the Ukrainian self-consecrated dead handers) "bishops" of the "Living Church" now dead (Met. Nikolai Platonov of Leningrad comes to mind), and he can apologize.

Looking at a map that documents it:

one sees it extended out of Ukraine, and yet did hit "New Russia" (the area that was added to what is now Ukraine by Czarine Catherine the Great and her favorite Potemkin, IIRC both of whom Ukrainian nationalists hate) in present day Ukraine-the Dombass region where most Russians live in Ukraine (outside of Kiev).


It seems that many Ukrainians have gone the way of the Austrians, who portray themselves as the first victims of Nazism, led by the Austrian Adolf Hitler.  (yes, Goodwin! Goodwind! given the racist arguments on ancestry in the letter, it was bound to come up sooner or later. Might as well get it out of the way).  There were plenty of Ukrainian Bolsheviks like Khrushchev.

Isa, all the dark red regions shown on the map are predominantly Ukrainian-populated. Kuban' is virtually 100% ethnic Ukrainian, even though it formally belongs to the Russian Federation.
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2010, 12:33:13 PM »

To Ialmisry: "There were plenty of Ukrainian Bolsheviks like Khrushchev."

Khrushchev was an ethnic Russian. Ethnic Ukrainian Bolsheviks were Chubar, Korotchenko, et al. Kosior (the First Secretary of the Central Committee of Ukrainian SSR at the time of the Holodomor) was a Ukrainianized ethnic Pole.

we've dealt with the Khrushshev issue before, e.g.
Quote from: ialmisry
Quote from: stanley123
Quote from: ialmisry
Quote from: stanley123
Quote from: Orthodox
Born: 17 April 1894
Birthplace: Kalinovka, Kursk
I thought that this city was in Russia, not the Ukraine?
1894.  All of Ukraine (the Ukraine at the time), was in Russia.  Once the border was drawn, Khrushchev was on the Ukrainian side of it.
But in this city, is it true, as I thought I  read somehwehre, that more than 95% of the inhabitants are ethnic Russians,. and fewer than 5% are ethnic Ukrainians, and today it is a city in Russia?
Is now, over a century later.  At the time Khrushchev was born, it was just a celo (village, opposted to a sat, hamlet).  And at the time, the distinction of Russian/Ukrainian (or as it was officially at the time, "Little Russian") was much a urban/noble vs. peasant division.  At the time there was no Ukraine, Byelorussia, Russia (Poland and Finland, for instance, did maintain/have a distinct seperate existence).  After his birth, Nikita's parents later moved further into what would become the Ukraine.  Once Ukraine declared independence, Khrushchev was in it.

Quote
Still, Berdyaev probably had a point when he wrote that "Bolshevism was a NATIONAL Russian phenomenon."

Did Berdyaev make a distinction between Great and Little Russians? Didn't he become a Marxist in Kiev?

Quote
After all, the world headquarters of this movement were in Moscow, in the Kremlin, where all the commands, including to deprive Ukrainian peasants of everything edible and to starve them to death, came from.
Of course letting all the Russian peasants eat everything they wanted.
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2010, 01:27:08 PM »

Did Berdyaev make a distinction between Great and Little Russians? Didn't he become a Marxist in Kiev?

But there never was any authentic Ukrainian Marxist government. The government of the People's Republic of Ukraine (1917-1920) was overall rather leftist, but pluralist, multi-party, democratic government.

Quote
After all, the world headquarters of this movement were in Moscow, in the Kremlin, where all the commands, including to deprive Ukrainian peasants of everything edible and to starve them to death, came from.
Of course letting all the Russian peasants eat everything they wanted.
[/quote]

There were no planned, organized artificial stravations in Russia. The terrible starvation of 1921 in the Volga region was not accompanied by patroling all roads by NKVD troops who had the task to make sure that no one would escape from the dying villages. On the contrary, Lenin's government in 1921 widely publicized the tragedy in the Volga region, and received a lot of international help. (Fridtjof Nansen helped very actively, for one.) On the contrary, in Fall 1932-summer 1933 the regions of Ukraine where millions of peasants were dying from hunger were completely shut down from the world; no information came from there, save for obviously propagandistic 'reports" of Walter Durandy.
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2010, 02:15:54 PM »

Looking at a map that documents it:

one sees it extended out of Ukraine, and yet did hit "New Russia" (the area that was added to what is now Ukraine by Czarine Catherine the Great and her favorite Potemkin, IIRC both of whom Ukrainian nationalists hate) in present day Ukraine-the Dombass region where most Russians live in Ukraine (outside of Kiev).

Most of "our people" in the OCA were from the Carpathians (now southern Poland and extreme west of Ukraine) or from Galicia. Galicia is the area on the map that is still white, under Poland, but doesn't it also include Vynnitsa and Kmelnitsky, which are yellow? Why would the Famine not be in those places?

I visited Ukrainians in 2007. One of them was living in Kknmelnitsky, from where their family came to settle in the OCA. Also some other Ukrainians I visited in Kiev. THe lady I stayed with say they don't know whether the famine was from nature or intentionally planned by Stalin. She said her mother was living in the village and said there really was a very bad harvest then.

In the late 1960's and 1970's, the USSR was importing grain seriously from USA. I think when USSR fought the Taliban, Reagan said no more grain, as punishment for fighting freedom fighters. Now in 2010 we hear in the news about American farmers exporting grain to Russia.

It's true that Ukraine was the "breadbasket of the Soviet Union." But I can easily imagine that if there was a natural famine, Stalin, who had a strong policy of Socialism in One Country (isolationism, self-sufficiency) would not have imported grain from the hostile West in the 1930's. In fact, I think he even exported some grain for industrialization.
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2010, 02:41:45 PM »

Did Berdyaev make a distinction between Great and Little Russians? Didn't he become a Marxist in Kiev?

But there never was any authentic Ukrainian Marxist government. The government of the People's Republic of Ukraine (1917-1920) was overall rather leftist, but pluralist, multi-party, democratic government.

so are you saying it wasn't authentic Ukrainian, or authentic Marxist?

After all, the world headquarters of this movement were in Moscow, in the Kremlin, where all the commands, including to deprive Ukrainian peasants of everything edible and to starve them to death, came from.
Of course letting all the Russian peasants eat everything they wanted.

There were no planned, organized artificial stravations in Russia. The terrible starvation of 1921 in the Volga region was not accompanied by patroling all roads by NKVD troops who had the task to make sure that no one would escape from the dying villages. On the contrary, Lenin's government in 1921 widely publicized the tragedy in the Volga region, and received a lot of international help. (Fridtjof Nansen helped very actively, for one.) On the contrary, in Fall 1932-summer 1933 the regions of Ukraine where millions of peasants were dying from hunger were completely shut down from the world; no information came from there, save for obviously propagandistic 'reports" of Walter Durandy.

Since the map shows (at least its title says) "Rate of Population Decline 1929-33," can you connect it to what happened a decade before in the Volga region?

Quote from: ialmisry
Quote from: Heorhij
I don't know, dear sister. Look, in these maps that Ialmisry shows us, there are areas where the Russian lanuage is absolutely donimating (like in the Zaporizhzhya oblast ets.) - but these are exactly the areas where the Holodomor (the artificial famine - the way to execute ~7 - 10 million Ukrainian peasants by artificial starvation, i.e. by simply taking away everything edible from them at gunpoint) was ravaging the most intensely;
That doesn't seem to be the case.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Holodomor_Famine_map.jpg

Quote from: Heorhij
and the areas devastated by the Holodomor were then re-populated by Russian-speaking migrants...

You would have to show a radical language/ethnicity change.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Ethnographic_map_of_Slavs%2C_Lubor_Niederle.JPG
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/East_Slavs_in_Russia_1897.JPG&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:East_Slavs_in_Russia_1897.JPG&usg=__84kg7PI28kQRK_ZSqQz03pCAtzg=&h=2789&w=2127&sz=1126&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=Je39FCfg358hlM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsite:upload.wikimedia.org%2Blinguistic%2Bmap%2Brussian%2Bempire%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

Btw, just because its useful, Ukraine's divisions in the Russian Empire with today's boundaries:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Gubernias_de_Ucrania_-_ENG.png
and the imperial census results 1897:
Quote
Total population (Ukrainian speakers) Russian speakers
Volyn 2,989,482 (2,095,579) 104,889
Podolia 3,018,299 (2,442,819) 98,984
Kiev 3,559,229 (2,819,145) 209,427
Kherson 2,733,612 (1,462,039) 575,375
Chernigov 2,297,854 (1,526,072) 495,963
Poltava 2,778,151 (2,583,133) 72,941
Kharkov 2,492,316 (2,009,411) 440,936
Yekaterinoslav 2,113,674 (1,456,369) 364,974
Taurida 1,447,790 (611,121) 404,463

The last is where the bulk of the Zaporizhzhia oblast is.

The studies I've seen show that the Russians, Romanian/Moldovian, Poles, Germans and Bulgarians died in proportion to the percentage of their population out in the fields.  Of course, that could just be collateral damage.  The issue also involves the corrolation between Ukrainian, or "Little Russian" with the peasant estate.  Russians mostly lived in the cities, and escaped accordingly.  But a lot of the Russians in Ukraine were associated with Hetman Pavlo Skoropadskyi's decision to throw Ukraine's lot in with the White (i.e. Czarist) Russians.  It is not like the Soviet were willing to let White Russians eat while Ukrainians starved.


Quote
You guys should not be making these quasi-"objective" analyses about what has been and what is happening in Ukraine. More Ukrainians were killed by the Holodomor than Jews by the Holocaust. And yes, it's a common theme that "Communism" killed them, not Russians. But the Putin regime continues the same old theme of denying the Holodomor and denying that Ukraine is a nation and a country who has the right to decide things on her own without consulting with the "older brother." And Putin himself is a KGB officer, the direct heir of those who killed my Ukrainian brethren by starvation; and the whole point of his regime's politics is that Ukraine is "theirs." Unless you have direct relatives who, in 1932-33, were crawling in the mud and dying of hunger (I happen to have those), you should not preach to me about the "relation" of my nation to the nation that has the Kremlyad' as their legitimate rulers and ideological mentors. And the nation that has this pathetic "ROCOR" accusing my President in "Fascist leanings" as "their" Church.
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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2010, 02:54:29 PM »

I am afraid this thread evolved into a yet another "Holodomor Revisionism," while the point Fr. Vintsukevych is making is not to "prove" that Holodomor did or did not happen. I understand the main issue is whether Moscow Patriarchy has the real, honest-to-goodness right to be called "Mother Church" of the Kyiv Orthodox jurisdiction. If, indeed, if the author claims, Nikita Alekseev BOUGHT that "right" from the then-Patriarch +DIONISIUS, then it's a great shame that the status quo remains.
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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2010, 08:21:00 PM »

I am afraid this thread evolved into a yet another "Holodomor Revisionism," while the point Fr. Vintsukevych is making is not to "prove" that Holodomor did or did not happen. I understand the main issue is whether Moscow Patriarchy has the real, honest-to-goodness right to be called "Mother Church" of the Kyiv Orthodox jurisdiction. If, indeed, if the author claims, Nikita Alekseev BOUGHT that "right" from the then-Patriarch +DIONISIUS, then it's a great shame that the status quo remains.
because a "better" status is up for sale?

The Metropolitinate of Kiev and All Rus' was translated to Moscow, where it became the Patriarchte of Moscow. Hence Mother Church. By succession, not sale.
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« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2010, 11:57:41 PM »

I might get around to the rest of this, but this caught my eye:

Your Holiness! On the Volodymyrs’ka Hirka Hill in Kyiv, you urged us to repent. Yes, you are right: repentance is not weakness; it is a great spiritual strength. It is capable of renewing not only a person but the entire society as well. Yet, I think repentance should begin with oneself – that’s what our Savior taught us. So, will you please begin this good work on behalf of yourself and your nation?..Repent...for the Holodomor, - for everything, everything! You, indeed, you, must ask forgiveness of the Ukrainian people.

The Holodomor?

The death by starvation happened 1932–1933. At least that is the conventional dating. At that time there was no Patriarch of Moscow: the Bolsheviks made sure of that, deposing and martyring Patriarch St. Tikhon and handing the Church over to control by the zombie "Living Church [sic]", which declaired excommunicate those in communion with th Patriarchal Church.  Maybe they can dig up one of those (in manner of the Ukrainian self-consecrated dead handers) "bishops" of the "Living Church" now dead (Met. Nikolai Platonov of Leningrad comes to mind), and he can apologize.

It seems that many Ukrainians have gone the way of the Austrians, who portray themselves as the first victims of Nazism, led by the Austrian Adolf Hitler.  (yes, Goodwin! Goodwind! given the racist arguments on ancestry in the letter, it was bound to come up sooner or later. Might as well get it out of the way).  There were plenty of Ukrainian Bolsheviks like Khrushchev.

You evidently have not studied the severe difficulties the Bolsheviks in Moscow had in installing communism in Ukraine.  Communism was forced onto Ukraine at the ends of bayonets from the Red Army attacking the Ukrainian National Republic from Russia in 1918-21.  In the elections to the Constituent Assembly from Ukraine after the February Revolution in Russia, the SR's of Hrushevsky and the SD's of Vynnychenko (Ukrainian anti-Bolshevik parties) received a great majority of the votes from Ukraine - some 75+ %.  The Bolsheviks only managed some 10 % of the votes in Ukraine from the Russified cities.  Communism was so weak in Ukraine and there so little Ukrainian Bolsheviks that Moscow had to wage a temporary retreat and attempt to popularize Bolshevism in Ukraine by means of korenizatsiya or Ukrainianization which temporarily allowed Ukrainian culture in the 1920s.  It is quite easy to look at statistics for the national makeup of the Ukrainian Communist Party from 1919 onwards to realize ethnic Ukrainians were NOT the majority ethnic group in the Communist Party in Ukraine for an incredible amount of time, never mind questions of leading figures.  Your comparison of Ukrainians to being just like Austrians in claiming first victimhood this time from Russian Bolshevism is patently false and IMHO insulting.  Muraviov's Red Army troops in arriving in the capital city of Ukraine Kyiv in 1918 had people shot who simply spoke Ukrainian (5,000).

Stalin, whose daughter Svetlana, described her Georgian father as a "Great Russian Nationalist" in her memoirs, this Stalin specifically wrote to Lazar Kaganovich, his henchman in Ukraine in the 1930s, that during the Holodomor "we can lose Ukraine" because of Ukrainian resistance to Bolshevism.  If you do not believe me than believe Stalin.  Everything hinged in Stalin's eyes on Ukrainian patriotism and rebelliousness to communism which had to be broken as Stalin wrote Kaganovich.  It's printed in Yale University's recent edition of the recently declassified Stalin-Kaganovich correspondence.  Stalin is not worried about resistance to collectivization in Russia, but in Ukraine where communism's stranglehold was weak until ultimately the Holodomor destroyed substantially the Ukrainian nation.  It still had not fully recovered from that genocide.

Ukraine's leading scholar on the Holodomor, Stanyslav Kulchytsky, back during the times of the Soviet Union believed what the ComPartiya had taught them all along: that the Famine was from natural causes.  Only after the opening of the archives after the death of the Soviet Union, did he realize the enormity and purposefulness of the Holodomor Genocide.  His articles can be found in Ukrainskyj Istorychynyi Zhurnal and the Ukrainian newspaper Den'.

What further cements the Holodomor as Genocide is that on top of closing the borders from Ukraine and Kuban (Ukrainian inhabited) to the Russian Federation where the food was, the Bolsheviks decided to put an end to any Ukrainian cultural renaissance and arrested any Ukrainians who would protest the coming Russification campaign.  Skrypnyk shot himself, the writer Khvylovy too, Vasyl Lypkivsky of the UAOC and its hierarchy were arrested and killed, and the rest of the Ukrainian intelligentsia shipped off to Siberia (rozstrillene vidrodzhenya.  It was the decapitation of the elite of a nation, as would happen to the Poles later at Katyn and under the Nazis.

As the famed historian Robert Conquest makes clear in his study of the Holodomor, the hundreds of villages in Ukraine which were wiped out by Stalin's famine, were repopulated by settlers brought in from Russia.  Witnesses, Ivan Maistrenko ( a leftist), and memoirists have all pointed this out.

The Ukrainian Communist Party was then purged twice by Stalin and Khrushchev (who was Russian - Khrushchev's great granddaughter to this day does not take Ukrainian independence seriously) and a linguistic, historical, and cultural Russification policy from Moscow was enforced from then on until the collapse of the Soviet Union with Shcherbitsky doing as much damage as he could in the end.

Yuri Shapoval has written in Ukraine a book the "Commanders of the Great Famine in Ukrainian".  You can see for yourself in that book how little ethnic Ukrainians were represented in the Bolshevik Secret Police enforcing the Holodomor.  This is history.

The sad part is that the current President of Ukraine is following Putin of Russia in closing down recently declassified archives of the crimes of Stalin in Russia and Ukraine.  Putin has had the kids' history textbooks altered in Russia and the same is happening now in Ukraine under pro-Kremlin oligarch Yanukovych who stated there is nothing left to learn of the Holodomor.

If you require further elaboration I would be pleased to provide it.  Communism only managed to come to power internally in two countries: Russian and later the-then Yugoslavia.  In all other countries: Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, etc. it was enforced on the ends of Red Army bayonets.

God Bless.
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2010, 12:09:34 AM »


Did Berdyaev make a distinction between Great and Little Russians? Didn't he become a Marxist in Kiev?

I am afraid your mistaken.  Berdyaev was kicked out of the Soviet Union by Lenin. You seriously think the Soviets would let him back in, somehow to Kyiv?  I think you misunderstand the history of the time and region.  Berdyaev wrote of Russian Communism and its roots in Russian messianism, the narodnyky of Russia (not Ukraine), the nihilists in Russian literature, the Russian Socialist Revolutionaries' terror weapon.  Berdyaev lived out his years in exile after the Russian Revolution.  A lot of his beliefs have to do with the Russian "collectivism" in history providing the groundwork for Russian communism.
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2010, 12:29:40 AM »

I might get around to the rest of this, but this caught my eye:

Your Holiness! On the Volodymyrs’ka Hirka Hill in Kyiv, you urged us to repent. Yes, you are right: repentance is not weakness; it is a great spiritual strength. It is capable of renewing not only a person but the entire society as well. Yet, I think repentance should begin with oneself – that’s what our Savior taught us. So, will you please begin this good work on behalf of yourself and your nation?..Repent...for the Holodomor, - for everything, everything! You, indeed, you, must ask forgiveness of the Ukrainian people.

The Holodomor?

The death by starvation happened 1932–1933. At least that is the conventional dating. At that time there was no Patriarch of Moscow: the Bolsheviks made sure of that, deposing and martyring Patriarch St. Tikhon and handing the Church over to control by the zombie "Living Church [sic]", which declaired excommunicate those in communion with th Patriarchal Church.  Maybe they can dig up one of those (in manner of the Ukrainian self-consecrated dead handers) "bishops" of the "Living Church" now dead (Met. Nikolai Platonov of Leningrad comes to mind), and he can apologize.

Looking at a map that documents it:

one sees it extended out of Ukraine, and yet did hit "New Russia" (the area that was added to what is now Ukraine by Czarine Catherine the Great and her favorite Potemkin, IIRC both of whom Ukrainian nationalists hate) in present day Ukraine-the Dombass region where most Russians live in Ukraine (outside of Kiev).


It seems that many Ukrainians have gone the way of the Austrians, who portray themselves as the first victims of Nazism, led by the Austrian Adolf Hitler.  (yes, Goodwin! Goodwind! given the racist arguments on ancestry in the letter, it was bound to come up sooner or later. Might as well get it out of the way).  There were plenty of Ukrainian Bolsheviks like Khrushchev.

You misunderstand the map and demographics.  The cities of what you call New Russia were Russified. The cities were not hit by the Holodomor collectivization campaign.  It was the Ukrainian countryside around these cities where the mass fatalities happened.  People were always amazed at how one could walk 10 km into the villages of the Donbas and hear perfect Ukrainain being spoken.  The countryside around DniproPetrovsk, Donetsk, Zaporizhya, were ethnically Ukrainian and it was the countryside that was hit by the Holodomor.  I know family from the outskirts of Donetsk - Ukrainian patriots back then.

The only urban population to suffer during the Holodomor were the Ukrainian victims of Stalin's anti-Ukrainianization campaign which occurred concomitantly in Ukraine.

Indeed, Ukrainian historiography was changed in 1932 with an about face on the Treaty of Pereiaslav of 1654 which was now to be taught as the Fraternal Union of the Brother Russian and Ukrainian nations, and was to be so instructed in Soviet schools.
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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2010, 01:05:27 AM »


Most of "our people" in the OCA were from the Carpathians (now southern Poland and extreme west of Ukraine) or from Galicia. Galicia is the area on the map that is still white, under Poland, but doesn't it also include Vynnitsa and Kmelnitsky, which are yellow? Why would the Famine not be in those places?

I visited Ukrainians in 2007. One of them was living in Kknmelnitsky, from where their family came to settle in the OCA. Also some other Ukrainians I visited in Kiev. THe lady I stayed with say they don't know whether the famine was from nature or intentionally planned by Stalin. She said her mother was living in the village and said there really was a very bad harvest then.

It's true that Ukraine was the "breadbasket of the Soviet Union." But I can easily imagine that if there was a natural famine, Stalin, who had a strong policy of Socialism in One Country (isolationism, self-sufficiency) would not have imported grain from the hostile West in the 1930's. In fact, I think he even exported some grain for industrialization.

Stalin exported the grain confiscated from starving Ukrainian peasants for those exports.  The West learned of the scope of the Holodomor from brave reporters like Malcom Muggeridge of Manchester.  Tons of efforts were made to send aid to the starving in Ukraine from the West.  Stalin refused them all.  Even Metropolitan Sheptytsky of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Polish ruled-Ukraine campaigned desperately to raise funds to feed the fellow people of Ukraine on the Soviet side.  Stalin refused all help. He knew this a death sentence.  When one communist had the guts to report to Stalin the true extent of the Famine, Stalin dismissed him as indulging in fantasies.  Come hell or highwater, Stalin was determined to break the back of Ukraine.  What need for him to accept the many offers of international help?

This breaking of Ukraine's back and the subsequent 60 year denial of any orchestrated famine in Ukraine by the Soviet authorities was quite successful.  If you brainwash a closed society for 60 years that there was no Famine, and no works could be written about it, you come across tons of people who lived in that system and whose grandparents refused to tell their children the truth of those horrible days for fear of repression.  In the 1930s, children were being awarded medals in the Soviet Union if they noticed their parents not holding the Party line or saying anything against Stalin or the Communist Party (Pavlyk Morozov anyone)  Still, Ukrainians recently started getting as many Holodomor Survivors as they could to speak to what happenned and record this before this old generation passes away.  They no longer fear telling the truth.  It will take some time to break down the lies instilled by the Regime of lies.  Hiding Secret Police archives as F.S.B. agent Putin and now Ukraine's President do will not help the process of revealing the truth.
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2010, 01:55:15 AM »

You evidently have not studied the severe difficulties the Bolsheviks in Moscow had in installing communism in Ukraine. 
You evidently ignore the severe difficulties the Bolsheviks had in installing communism in Moscow. It is called "the Russian Civil War."

Quote
Communism was forced onto Ukraine at the ends of bayonets from the Red Army attacking the Ukrainian National Republic from Russia in 1918-21. 
This is the Winter Palace. What's those pointy things they are carrying.




Quote
In the elections to the Constituent Assembly from Ukraine after the February Revolution in Russia, the SR's of Hrushevsky and the SD's of Vynnychenko (Ukrainian anti-Bolshevik parties) received a great majority of the votes from Ukraine - some 75+ %.  The Bolsheviks only managed some 10 % of the votes in Ukraine from the Russified cities.  Communism was so weak in Ukraine and there so little Ukrainian Bolsheviks that Moscow had to wage a temporary retreat and attempt to popularize Bolshevism in Ukraine by means of korenizatsiya or Ukrainianization which temporarily allowed Ukrainian culture in the 1920s. 

Skipping the Kiev Bolshevik Uprising of Oct 26/Nov 8 1917 are we?

Korenizatsiya was neither limited to the Ukrainians nor to the Soviets: the Poles'  Józef Piłsudski pursued it in his "Prometheism" for similar ends.

Quote
It is quite easy to look at statistics for the national makeup of the Ukrainian Communist Party from 1919 onwards to realize ethnic Ukrainians were NOT the majority ethnic group in the Communist Party in Ukraine for an incredible amount of time, never mind questions of leading figures. 

How many peasants were in it? How many were leading figures?

Quote
Your comparison of Ukrainians to being just like Austrians in claiming first victimhood this time from Russian Bolshevism is patently false and IMHO insulting. 
Roll Eyes
Quote
Muraviov's Red Army troops in arriving in the capital city of Ukraine Kyiv in 1918 had people shot who simply spoke Ukrainian (5,000).

Stalin, whose daughter Svetlana, described her Georgian father as a "Great Russian Nationalist"

Can't be: he was Georgian, just like those Russians in Moscow were Finno-Uralic, or so the letter of the OP would have us believe.

Quote
in her memoirs, this Stalin specifically wrote to Lazar Kaganovich, his henchman in Ukraine in the 1930s, that during the Holodomor "we can lose Ukraine" because of Ukrainian resistance to Bolshevism.  If you do not believe me than believe Stalin. 

Now why would I want to do that?

Quote
Everything hinged in Stalin's eyes on Ukrainian patriotism and rebelliousness to communism which had to be broken as Stalin wrote Kaganovich.  It's printed in Yale University's recent edition of the recently declassified Stalin-Kaganovich correspondence.  Stalin is not worried about resistance to collectivization in Russia, but in Ukraine where communism's stranglehold was weak until ultimately the Holodomor destroyed substantially the Ukrainian nation.  It still had not fully recovered from that genocide.
Compare the maps above.

Ukraine's leading scholar on the Holodomor, Stanyslav Kulchytsky, back during the times of the Soviet Union believed what the ComPartiya had taught them all along: that the Famine was from natural causes.  Only after the opening of the archives after the death of the Soviet Union, did he realize the enormity and purposefulness of the Holodomor Genocide.  His articles can be found in Ukrainskyj Istorychynyi Zhurnal and the Ukrainian newspaper Den'.

What further cements the Holodomor as Genocide is that on top of closing the borders from Ukraine and Kuban (Ukrainian inhabited)[/quote]

Where the Russian White Guard did the Ice March? In the 1897 census, 859,122 (49.1%) spoke "Little Russian" and 732,283. (41.1%) "Great Russian." The populations were not distinguished. 30 years later in the Soviet census the figures were 1,644.518 (49.2%) for Ukrainian, and 1,428,587 (42.7%) for Russian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_the_Kuban#Russian_census_figures

Quote
to the Russian Federation where the food was, the Bolsheviks decided to put an end to any Ukrainian cultural renaissance and arrested any Ukrainians who would protest the coming Russification campaign.  Skrypnyk shot himself, the writer Khvylovy too, Vasyl Lypkivsky of the UAOC and its hierarchy were arrested and killed, and the rest of the Ukrainian intelligentsia shipped off to Siberia (rozstrillene vidrodzhenya.  It was the decapitation of the elite of a nation, as would happen to the Poles later at Katyn and under the Nazis.

yeah, life was grand for the anti-Soviet Russian intelligentsia under Stalin. Heck, it was grand for socialist Russian intelligentsia, as Gorky and others found out.

Quote
As the famed historian Robert Conquest makes clear in his study of the Holodomor, the hundreds of villages in Ukraine which were wiped out by Stalin's famine, were repopulated by settlers brought in from Russia.  Witnesses, Ivan Maistrenko ( a leftist), and memoirists have all pointed this out.

The Ukrainian Communist Party was then purged twice by Stalin and Khrushchev (who was Russian - Khrushchev's great granddaughter to this day does not take Ukrainian independence seriously)

What about his great grandfathers?

Ask the Romanians about his redrawing of Ukraine's borders.

And who was Lydia Shevchenko?

Quote
and a linguistic, historical, and cultural Russification policy from Moscow was enforced from then on until the collapse of the Soviet Union with Shcherbitsky doing as much damage as he could in the end.

Yuri Shapoval has written in Ukraine a book the "Commanders of the Great Famine in Ukrainian".  You can see for yourself in that book how little ethnic Ukrainians were represented in the Bolshevik Secret Police enforcing the Holodomor.  This is history.

The sad part is that the current President of Ukraine is following Putin of Russia in closing down recently declassified archives of the crimes of Stalin in Russia and Ukraine.  Putin has had the kids' history textbooks altered in Russia and the same is happening now in Ukraine under pro-Kremlin oligarch Yanukovych who stated there is nothing left to learn of the Holodomor.

If you require further elaboration I would be pleased to provide it.  Communism only managed to come to power internally in two countries: Russian and later the-then Yugoslavia.  In all other countries: Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, etc. it was enforced on the ends of Red Army bayonets.

You conveniently ignore both the White Army and the Chetniks, Bela Kun, the SPD, etc.
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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2010, 01:59:18 AM »


Did Berdyaev make a distinction between Great and Little Russians? Didn't he become a Marxist in Kiev?

I am afraid your mistaken.  Berdyaev was kicked out of the Soviet Union by Lenin. You seriously think the Soviets would let him back in, somehow to Kyiv?  I think you misunderstand the history of the time and region.  Berdyaev wrote of Russian Communism and its roots in Russian messianism, the narodnyky of Russia (not Ukraine), the nihilists in Russian literature, the Russian Socialist Revolutionaries' terror weapon.  Berdyaev lived out his years in exile after the Russian Revolution.  A lot of his beliefs have to do with the Russian "collectivism" in history providing the groundwork for Russian communism.
Berdyev was kicked out on the Philosopher's ship in 1922. He was born in Kiev in 1874, went to Kiev University in 1894.

So did he distinguish between Great and Little Russians?
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2010, 08:21:24 AM »

Isa, please stop obfuscating the thread. I beg you, let us discuss what is relevant to Orthodoxy here. The main claim of the open letter is that we, the Orthodox, must look again at the situation that was created by the act of simony of 1686, for which Patr. +DIONISIUS was, less than in a year, dethroned and defrocked: the ecclesiastical independence of the Kyiv Metropoly was SOLD (yes, not because of the "transfer" of anything to Moscow), because the then-Patriarch made some decision after a representative of the Tzar, Nikita Alekseev, gave him a huge bribe. Again, this is what Fr. Vintsukevych writes in his letter. Let us analyze this. If you prove that Fr. V. is wrong, so be it, but you haven't done it yet, and neither anyone else.
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« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2010, 10:21:16 AM »

Isa, please stop obfuscating the thread. I beg you, let us discuss what is relevant to Orthodoxy here. The main claim of the open letter is that we, the Orthodox, must look again at the situation that was created by the act of simony of 1686, for which Patr. +DIONISIUS was, less than in a year, dethroned and defrocked: the ecclesiastical independence of the Kyiv Metropoly was SOLD (yes, not because of the "transfer" of anything to Moscow), because the then-Patriarch made some decision after a representative of the Tzar, Nikita Alekseev, gave him a huge bribe. Again, this is what Fr. Vintsukevych writes in his letter. Let us analyze this. If you prove that Fr. V. is wrong, so be it, but you haven't done it yet, and neither anyone else.
It that was the main claim
An Assault on the Soul

An open letter of Fr. Peter Vintsukevich to His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All-Russia, +KIRILL

Your Holiness,

I am writing in Russian so that you could understand me better. First of all, please let me introduce myself. I am an Orthodox Christian, and a former inmate of Stalin’s forced labor camps. In the mid-1990-s, I was the Provost of the Volyn’ Spiritual Seminary of the UOC-KP.

Yes! In a way you and I are classmates. I was honored to take classes in the same institution you took classes: in the Leningrad Spiritual Academy of the Russian Orthodox Church! Unfortunately, soon after I was admitted, I was expelled, because, as a former political prisoner, I had no right to obtain a residential permit in a big city of the USSR. Yet, I still managed to graduate from the Academy, with a degree of Div.D., in another place – in the Catacomb Church of Patriarch Tikhon. There are rumors that you, too, were somehow “persecuted,” although it did not prevent you from making a brilliant career very fast. I am sorry that I called you my classmate. Believe me, I reminded you that you and I used to go to the same school not because I wanted to share in your glory. It’s just so that you will know that I know the Church history, the Christian theology and the Canon Law just like you know them, not any less. So our conversation might become serious. Of course, you are free to not engage in polemics with some former jail bird like myself. Well, maybe you might pass this to one of your Metropolitans, +NIKON (he is from Ukraine, from the Volyn oblast!), and then maybe he will object to what I will be saying; that’s what I hope so much.

Your Holiness! In your sermons delivered in the Odesa, Dnipropetrovs’k, and Kyiv, you talked so much about the “fact” that our (Ukrainian and Russian) nations are the same one nation. You also talked so much about canonicity, and about repentance. So may I just split this really big topic into three. There is: (1) history, (2) Canon Law, and (3) ethics.

Let us begin with history. The whole point, made by you in your sermons, boils down to the following: because we, Ukrainians and Russians, are actually one people (or one nation), the claims of Ukrainians that they are entitled to their own Orthodox jurisdiction make no sense. Let me point it out straight away that the thesis that Ukrainians and Russians are the same people (or nation) has absolutely no scientific basis. From the point of view of ethnicity, our two peoples have always been exactly that – two different peoples, never the same one people. We, Ukrainians, happened to be occupied by a neighbor, who was, militarly, stronger than we were, and we have been lingering in this state of being occupied, which we hated, for about 300 years. The argument that we, Ukrainians and Russians, by our own good will, were “voluntarily” “re-united,” is a fairy tale, because the moment Ukraine agreed to come under the Moscow’s “protection” (in 1654), the Ukrainian home rule (Het’man’s rule) was destroyed, and so were the Cossack army, the printing of books in the Ukrainian language, the national culture and, finally, our most ancient among the Eastern Slavic peoples Church Metropoly. All that, including the latter, was done in a most brutal and cunning, trust-breaking, deceitful fashion. That’s what this so-called “being re-united” actually was.

Let’s see; in the first place, were we, Ukrainians and Russians, really related in terms of “blood” (ethnicity)? Well, look at the map of Eastern Europe of the 9th – 10th centuries. It tells you that Slavic tribes – Polyany, Drevlyany, Dregovychy, Radymychy, Kryvychy, Polochany, Volynyany, - inhabited what is now Ukraine and Belarus. To the east and to the north of them, there were Ugro-Finnish tribes with their entirely different language and culture; Chud’, Ves’, Merya, Cheremisy, Mordva, Perm’, Yam, and others. Nestor the Chronicle-Writer indicates exactly that (see “The Chronicle of Times,” chapter 25, paragraph 6). Those tribes had absolutely no relation to Slavs. They were not very highly developed socially and they had no government or administration of their own that would be in any way sustainable. So, they had to invite Scandinavians to rule over them (“come and rule us”). Yet, Kyiv Rus’ had no need in the “help” of this kind. By that time (9th – 10th centuries), it became so powerful as a state of Europe that it threatened even the Byzantine Empire. Sadly, in a few decades, Prince Oleg, a Scandinavian, treacherously murdered Kyiv princes Askol’d and Dir and conquered Kyiv. Yet, your Metropolitan +AGATHANGEL says, “”The Kyiv Rus’ has ALWAYS been ONE with the Great Russia (i.e. with what was to the northeast of it). Kyiv (or, as he writes “Kiev”) without the Great Russia, in the state of separation from her, can not be conceived in any case.” But… isn’t it just ridiculous? Just look – there was NO “Great Russia” in the 9th – 10th century; in fact, there was NO “RUSSIA” WHATSOEVER!!! What really existed, was Kyivan Rus’ and her people – Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. the present-day Ukrainians and Belarussians). So, what exactly is it – stupidity? Complete ignorance? Or Ukrainophobia that simply cannot be stopped? I think it’s a mixture of all three. Stupidity always marches together with hatred and haughtiness.

OK, now let’s look at this situation from a different angle. If you Russians and we Ukrainians really are one people – why, then, did you keep annihilating us by millions? You were busy destroying our authentic culture. You imprisoned scores of our patriots and had them rot. You executed us with artificial starvation. You used all means possible to destroy us, and you continue to use the means that you consider possible still! Just ask people in the Russian heartland, how do they feel about Ukraine. Of course you will hear: “Urrgh, these Khokhly, these Banderites.” This is what your statistics says: 60% of Russian citizens consider Ukraine to be evil. Just like one hero of a Dostoyevsky novel said: “I have done this man so much evil, that’s why I hate him.” You hate us, because you have done quite a lot of evil to us.

But let us continue our historical overview. Later, in the 12th – 13th centuries, because of peculiar historical circumstances (fighting between feudal lords, Mongol-Tatar onslaught), Slavs began to oose into the lands to the east and north from Kyiv Rus’ – and so the Slavic blood began to penetrate into the veins of the above-mentioned Ugro-Finnish tribes. When Mongols destroyed Kyiv (in the 1240-s), the center of the social and political life of Eastern Slavs migrated to a more isolated and protected Northeast, and so the gradual growth of Moscow began. From us, from Kyiv Rus’, your people received the Slavic blood, the Christian faith and the education of the populace. Do you need me to tell you about who were the first Enlighteners of your lands? I don’t think so. I’ll just mention a few, in passing: +PETER, Metropolitan of Muscovy – a native of the Volyn Region of what is now Ukraine; +IOASAPH of “Begorod” (actually Bilhorod, Ukraine); +INNOCENT of Irkutsk – also a Ukrainian; +STEPHAN (Yavors’kyj) – also a Ukrainian, from Halychyna, Western Ukraine; +THEOPHAN (Prokopovych) – also a Ukrainian; even M.V. Lomonosov (a Russian, from Arkhangel’sk, the founder of the Moscow State University), not being an ethnic Ukrainian, got his education… again, in Ukraine!!!

Yes… as you say, Kyiv is the “mother of the cities of Rus’.” And how did you treat your Mother? You devastated and humiliated her from day one, once you came to have your military power.

Let me just give one exmple. In 1169, on the second week of the Great Lent, a son of Yuriy Dolgorukiy (the founder of Moscow) set the city of Kyiv on fire, which completely destroyed it. His troops massacred about one half of all Kyivites. According to Kostomarov, a historian, there was no mercy to anyone – neither to the old, nor to the little children, nor to churches, nor to monasteries; the city was looted, and everything was taken from it including Holy Icons, priestly garments, and church bells; and one famous icon, called the Most Holy Mother of God of Vysh’horod, was also stolen and never returned. Yes, for some weird reason, it is generally known as “yours,” and called the Most Holy Mother of God of Vladimir! But that’s how you always behaved. You took what you wanted. And that commander of the army of thieves, that murderer, prince Andrew “Bogolubskiy” (which means “who loves God!”), - you canonized him because, well, he… prayed! But look, in 1569 tzar Ivan the Terrible literally drowned the freedom-loving city of Novgorod in the blood of its citizens, and then took a long, long time to pray. Why not canonize him, too? And why not canonize emperor Peter I, and Stalin? After all, these, also, did a lot to “increase the might of Russia.” Also, you say that since the time of your invasion, you built a lot. Yes, you did build a lot, using our hands. St. Petersburg stands on the bones of many thousands of our Ukrainian Cossacks, whom you disarmed, enslaved and worked to death. Even to this day, those hands of Ukrainian folks, the hands that are accustomed to work, pump your Tyumen’ oil, and do many other things in your country. But enough history. History, as the saying goes, “is not about what we used to wear – rather, it is about how you stripped us naked.” That sums up the entire Ukrainian experience.

Let me now turn to another item, the Canon Law. Just what is the logic used by “spiritual fathers” from Moscow in this regard?

The Orthodox Church of Poland, which has less than 200,000 faithful, has received autocephaly. Why, then, none was granted to the nation that counts over 50 million people and has its own independent state, the nation that has a colossal authentic culture – the Ukrainian nation?

They say: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has no autocephaly, because to get one, this Church must receive the approval of the Mother Church.

But wait. The Metropoly of Kyiv – the most ancient of all on the teritory of the Kyivan Rus’ – has always been the spiritual Mother of all Eastern Slavs. So how could it happen that Her actual DAUGHTER, the Metropoly of Moscow, became Her Mother, while the real Mother became… a slave?

Well. Everyone knows, indeed, how it happened. And you, Your Holiness, most certainly know it. And the Eastern Prelates, whom you have bought, know it - and look away, being ashamed because they know precisely, how injust this whole thing was, and is. It was very simple. “You sell. I buy.”

After the so-called “re-unification” (1654), the mighty barons of Muscovy were not satisfied that they had captured the secular power all over Ukraine. They needed the soul of the Ukrainian people. Where is this soul? Of course, in the Church. So, the government of the Tzar, and the Patriarch of Moscow – by that time, the Metropoly of Moscow had already morphed into “Patriarchy,” by the way, also due to the means that had been, well, questionable… - raised the issue of subjugating the Kyiv Metropoly to Moscow. In 1686, a delegation led by Nikita Alekseev went to Constantinople, with the goal to extract the endorsement of Eastern Prelates for the liquidation of the Kyiv ecclesiastical authonomy. The Patriarch of Constantinople, +DIONISIUS, was showered with rich gifts, and he gave in. In less than one year after this shameful deal, the Patriarch was convicted of simony and defrocked. Yet, the decision to get rid of the ecclesiastically autonomous Orthodox jurisdiction with the center in Kyiv stayed. Now, we ask you: was this decision an act that was in line with the Canon Law? Was it in line with any law? You won’t answer, of course. But you know, with what ease has the Daughter bought the right to be “known” as “Mother,” and also just what she did with her actual Mother – robbed her, humiliated her, deprived her of everything and is still keeping the Mother in outrageous captivity, spiritual slavery.
 

OK, these are events of old. Yet, now, today – does Ukraine have the right to Orthodox ecclesiastical autonomy (or Autocephly), being an independent state as she is? The answer is, undoubtedly, YES. Moscow, on the other hand, has no canonical right to hold Ukrainian Orthodox faithful under her fold, save for purely political reasons of the Kremlin team. It means that you, Your Holiness, are a part of this team and the thing you do is not of God, but of the Tsar!

Let me remind our readers that the Canon Law is a sum total of judicial norms of life of the Church, which emerges from the Apostolic rules, as well as from documents of the Ecumenical Councils. The rule number 34 from the Apostolic Canons says that each nation must have its own Primate, its own first (or most senior) Hierarch; that, actually, means that a sovereign nation does have the ecclesiastical right to have her own independent ecclesiastical jurisdiction. The rule number 17 of the 4th Ecumenical Council and the rule number 38 of the 6th Ecumenical Council say that each nation, when it acquires its own independent state, is eligible for having its own independent Church (or jurisdiction). Let me quote the latter rule for you, in a Church Slavonic translation: «Аще царскою властию, вновь устроен, или впредь устроен будет град: то гражданским и земским распределениям да следует и распределение церковных дел» (in English: “If a city or country, with the power of this city’s or country’s ruler was newly established, or will be established in the future, let these civic innovations be followed by granting authority (to this newly independent civic formation) of its own ecclesiastical affairs.”)

One might ask: so, what else is needed? This Rule 38 is written in such a way that it’s as if it was written specifically for Ukraine. But it looks like there are no laws for Moscow. Those in Moscow know only one thing: the Khokhly (a demeaning name for Ukrainians. – GP) must always be under their thumb. Forever.

Generally speaking, are these Canon Laws perfect? You yourself know very well that many of them are antiquated, make no sense anymore, and that even those rules that could regulate the life of the Church aren’t really observed by anyone. Buu that’s an entirely separate conversation. The Canons are the thing made by human hands, they were written with a certain political situation in mind. For example, the 7th ruling of the First Ecumenical Council says that the primacy of honor belongs to the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Perhaps that’s how it should be, because our Lord Jesus Christ suffered and rose from the dead in Jerusalem, and it is from Jerusalem that the Gospel began to spread. However, the 3rd ruling of the Second Ecumenical Council states that the primacy of honor belongs to the Patriarch of Constantinople. Why? Very simple: the political situation in the world changed. Jerusalem became weak and Byzantium became strong.

Maybe it was the Lord Who appointed the Patriarch of Constantinople to be the Ecumenical Patriarch, and so this person is eligible to grant autocephaly to one jurisdiction and not to grant it into another. But we all know that in this issue, what decides is the “generous gift,” or, simply put, a bribe. Don’t you know how much does your Patriarchy pay him so that he would carry your politics? And note, he has been denying you canonicity for 141 years. Was it just? And why should we actually bow to all these Eastern prelates? Just our Kyiv Orthodox jurisdiction has more bishops than the Ecumenical Patriarch has parishes…

While Canoins are written by men, the Grace is shed by God. So in vain do your subordinates keep saying that we are “graceless.” If Grace only comes to those deemed “canonical,” then your Patriarchy, obviously, has been “graceless” for 141 years. But didn’t the great men of God from your Patriarchy prove otherwise? I think we should stop talking about Canons. I have perhaps tired you, Your Holiness. However, to conclude, I would like to talk about yet another thing.

Your Holiness! On the Volodymyrs’ka Hirka Hill in Kyiv, you urged us to repent. Yes, you are right: repentance is not weakness; it is a great spiritual strength. It is capable of renewing not only a person but the entire society as well. Yet, I think repentance should begin with oneself – that’s what our Savior taught us. So, will you please begin this good work on behalf of yourself and your nation?

Please repent that three hundred years ago you, in a lawless fashion, using bribery, blackmail, and treachery subjugated the most ancient Metropoly on the territory of Eastern Slavs. That for the entire three hundred years you have been humiliating us, destroying our culture, banning our language, made our children die in your imperialistic wars. Repent for the Solovki, for the dungeons for our patriots, for the GULAG, for the Holodomor, - for everything, everything! You, indeed, you, must ask forgiveness of the Ukrainian people, and other peoples, for your imperialistic takeovers. You must ask forgiveness of the Polish people because your fathers shot twenty thousand Polish prisoners near Smolensk. You must ask forgiveness of Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholics, because the NKVD people, in agreement with you, made their priests rot in prisons. Can you personally ask this forgiveness? Can you personally show an example of a Christian humbleness and repentance? Just listen to the voice of your wonderful poet:

“Pray, repent, raise your hands to the heaven!
For all the sins of the days of old,
For all the warmongering of Cain that you have been doing
Ever since you were in your infancy!”

But no, this will never happen. Moscow never apologizes for whatever awful thing it has done. As your saying goes, “Moscow has no trust in tears.” Should maybe we repent? But we never destroyed your culture – we enriched it; we never deported you to Siberia, we never executed you by starvation, we never trampled on your freedom. Ah, well, I know, you will say that all those things were done not by you, but by Bolsheviks. So, were the Bolsheviks some sort of nomadic tribes who invaded our land and drowned it in blood? Let me remind you the words – not of some Banderite, but of your Russian philosopher, Nicholas Berdyaev, who wrote that “Bolshevism is a Russian national phenomenon” (see his “Sources and Meaning of the Russian Communism”).

I ask myself often, what is it that binds your clergy together with Communists? Indeed, the facts are out there and they are so conspicuous. The collaboration between the Patriarchy of Moscow and the theomachian political party has been going on for 85 years, beginning from Bp. +SERGIUS (Stargorodsky) to this day. Just how telling is this speech of Patriarch +ALEXIUS I, said near the coffin of Stalin:

“Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin, the Great Leader of our nation, is no longer with us. His enormous moral, society-oriented strength is gone, and our nation saw in that strength its own strength… It is due to his high authority that so much good, so much benefitial has been done to our Church by our Government… He remains unforgettable, and our Russian Orthodox Church sends Her farewell to him, for the last time, letting him go “the way of all flesh,” with a passionate prayer… To our beloved, unforgettable Iosif Vissarionovich we, sincerely, prayerfully, with passionate love, say: ‘Memory Eternal!’ “ (see “Journal of the Moscow Patriarchy,” 1953, #4).

Now, this was said by a man who himself spend quite a time in Stalin’s forced labor camps. It looks like there is some truth in the saying: “A dog who was beaten serves his owner better.” What a stinking piece of garbage! Look, - aren’t you ashamed of your Moscow Patriarchy?

Little has changed since that time. The collaboration between your hierarchs and Communists carries on. I can’t forget how one of your metropolitans, +AGATHANGEL, while being a member of the Parliament, defended the Communist empire and insisted that the monument of Lenin in the centre of Kyiv must be protected from our Ukrainian patriots who wanted to dismantle it? And just how many times did +AGATHANGEL vote together with the Red Atheists? One priest from your Patriarchy put an icon showing big image of Stalin in his church’s iconostasis. Don’t you remember that? A protopresbyter named Fr. Dmitriy Gaponov, from Donets’k, used to claim that no difference at all ever existed between Marxism and Christianity. Is that your opinion as well? And Metr. +VOLODYMYR (Sabodan), also from your Patriarchy, gave a high-ranking award to the First Communist of Ukraine, Petro Symonenko. For what good done by this man to the Church? And one of your most passionate sidekicks, Nataliya Vitrenko (the leader of the so-called “Party of Progressive Socialists” – GP), who says that she is “very Orthodox,” puts flowers to the monument of Lenin each time she arrives to Kyiv – to the monument of this harshest of all enemies of Christ. Is this the Orthodoxy you preside over? Why, why all this is happening? The answer is simple: because Communists dream about the restoration of their political empire, and you dream about restoration of your spiritual empire. Therefore, your interests match. And just what color will the empire be – Red, White – has a very secondary importance.

One more thing that I want to ask you. Why do you hold on to us, Ukrainians, so strongly? Why do you want to be our benefactor, above all? I have lived in Russia for 15 years. I traveled over many of Russia’s regions on foot, and I saw pretty much the same picture everywhere: church buildings that were demolished or “beheaded,” some of them turned into public toilets by your “God-chosen people.” You will never see anything like that in Central and Western Ukraine. In our land, every village has its own church building, whose interior is neatly decorated by embroidered clothes or towels. The city of Luts’k has about 200,000 people, but we have about thirty church buildings, and all of them are packed with faithful every single Sunday. On the other hand, in the heartland of Russia it may well be that there is one church building for the whole vast administrative district (“rayon”), and even that one church is empty always. That’s where you should apply your spiritual energy, your pastoral strength! Teach your people at least to have some respect for their holy places! And there is no need to teach us, Ukrainians, our faith – Ukraine has been, and is, praying.

As I am approaching the end of my letter, you are flying back to Moscow. Probably, you are recalling the events of your visit, and you flatter yourself that you have seen and understood Ukraine. No, you havent. All you saw was your own escort, the “paratroopers” that were closely following you from Moscow; a bunch of hysterical or psychotic old women who use to flock to the Lavra Monastery, and a bunch of politicians ready to sell themseves to the highest bidder. Those people you always have at hand. But not real Ukraine – you never saw her. You could have seen her if, for example, you visited our land during the Orange Revolution. Well, maybe you will still see her, God willing.

Your visit is a next assault on our soul.

Your Holiness, our strife is a long one, and it takes a lot of strength; but we will always be getting it. And you know, who will win? No, not those who will be in a more advantageous political or economical situation, and not those who will secure the support of all Eastern Prelates or even the entire world Orthodoxy. Those will be victorious who will deliver more of the passionate prayers to the Throne of the Almighty. Those who, by the way they live their lives, will show more truth, faith, hope, and love. At the final reckoning, the millions of those innocents whom you murdered will be victorious, because their blood cries out to the Lord. Remember, there will be the Judgment of God. Ukraine is praying.

http://www.pravoslavja.lutsk.ua/dokumenty/dokument/?newsid=1668

Translation from the original Russian, Heorhij
Fr. V. obfuscated it well.
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2010, 10:39:05 AM »

So, again, please, let's discuss just this for now:

"After the so-called “re-unification” (1654), the mighty barons of Muscovy were not satisfied that they had captured the secular power all over Ukraine. They needed the soul of the Ukrainian people. Where is this soul? Of course, in the Church. So, the government of the Tzar, and the Patriarch of Moscow – by that time, the Metropoly of Moscow had already morphed into “Patriarchy,” by the way, also due to the means that had been, well, questionable… - raised the issue of subjugating the Kyiv Metropoly to Moscow. In 1686, a delegation led by Nikita Alekseev went to Constantinople, with the goal to extract the endorsement of Eastern Prelates for the liquidation of the Kyiv ecclesiastical authonomy. The Patriarch of Constantinople, +DIONISIUS, was showered with rich gifts, and he gave in. In less than one year after this shameful deal, the Patriarch was convicted of simony and defrocked. Yet, the decision to get rid of the ecclesiastically autonomous Orthodox jurisdiction with the center in Kyiv stayed. Now, we ask you: was this decision an act that was in line with the Canon Law? Was it in line with any law? You won’t answer, of course. But you know, with what ease has the Daughter bought the right to be “known” as “Mother,” and also just what she did with her actual Mother – robbed her, humiliated her, deprived her of everything and is still keeping the Mother in outrageous captivity, spiritual slavery."

Your comments, thoughts?
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« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2010, 01:09:14 PM »

Usucaption?
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« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2010, 03:01:49 PM »

Usucaption?

What's that? Huh
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« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2010, 03:54:09 PM »


A legal term, Heorhij.  It is much like squatter's rights (although more complex).  Essentially, one could say that the Russian Church's dominance in Ukraine is established by usucaption since the Russian Church was defacto recognized as the official Church of the Orthodox Ukrainian people for a time sufficient that later protest would be moot.  If you subscribe to the theory of usucaption in this case (and I am not saying that I do, although it is an interesting argument), you would in essence be saying "The Russian Orthodox Church (MP) had been the official Church of Ukraine for long enough that it has established it right to be such.  No complaint was upheld by any Synod to the contrary, nor did the EP have any major objection during this time, further confirming such."  I know that you do not agree with this, so I am offering this post only as an explanation and not an argument.
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« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2010, 05:38:53 PM »


A legal term, Heorhij.  It is much like squatter's rights (although more complex).  Essentially, one could say that the Russian Church's dominance in Ukraine is established by usucaption since the Russian Church was defacto recognized as the official Church of the Orthodox Ukrainian people for a time sufficient that later protest would be moot.  If you subscribe to the theory of usucaption in this case (and I am not saying that I do, although it is an interesting argument), you would in essence be saying "The Russian Orthodox Church (MP) had been the official Church of Ukraine for long enough that it has established it right to be such.  No complaint was upheld by any Synod to the contrary, nor did the EP have any major objection during this time, further confirming such."  I know that you do not agree with this, so I am offering this post only as an explanation and not an argument.

Thank you.
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« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2010, 02:34:20 AM »

I want to add that even if I think that the ROC is a 'rightful' Church in Ukraine I don't oppose to the autocephaly for Ukraine but they are better ways to achieve that than digging out 300-year-old documents and trying to undermine them when no one during that 300 years did that.
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« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2010, 08:01:20 AM »

I want to add that even if I think that the ROC is a 'rightful' Church in Ukraine I don't oppose to the autocephaly for Ukraine but they are better ways to achieve that than digging out 300-year-old documents and trying to undermine them when no one during that 300 years did that.

What are these "better ways?"
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« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2010, 08:04:44 AM »

Asking gently?

For sure not schisms, allying with Eastern Catholics and Church sieges.
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« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2010, 08:30:23 AM »

Asking gently?

For sure not schisms, allying with Eastern Catholics and Church sieges.

Yes, asking gently and waiting for a POSITIVE answer (not "what not to do," but "what to do"). And BTW, nobody is "allying" with our dear brothers and sisters in Christ, Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2010, 08:51:45 AM »

Really?
http://cerkiew.net.pl/Wiadomosci/wiadomoscjedna.php?polaczenie=wiad_1281090709&cerkiew=cerkiew
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29245.0.html
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« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2010, 09:11:44 AM »


Working together on a construction project does not mean "allying" in a spiritual, doctrinal sense.

Still, let's not deviate from the question. What are these "better ways" to build a Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdiction that would be:

a) canonical (i.e. in the Eucharistic unity with the whole Orthodox world); and

b) Ukrainian (i.e. autocephalous, completely independent of Moscow in administrative as well as cultural and historical sense - for example, celebrate the Day of All Saints of Ukraine - while the present-day "Ukrainian" Orthodox Church does not celebrate such a day, instead celebrating "Дeнь Всeх Cвятых, в зeмлe РOCCИЙCКОЙ Просиявших")?
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« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2010, 09:15:36 AM »

Petition of the Synod of UOC to the Holy Synod of ROC.
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« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2010, 09:23:20 AM »

Petition of the Synod of UOC to the Holy Synod of ROC.

Impossible. Again, the currently existing "U"OC is NOT Ukrainian and it is the biggest enemy of the idea we are discussing.
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« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2010, 09:28:36 AM »

Petition of the Synod of UOC to the Holy Synod of ROC.
Was there supposed to be a link?
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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2010, 09:29:57 AM »

Petition of the Synod of UOC to the Holy Synod of ROC.

Impossible. Again, the currently existing "U"OC is NOT Ukrainian and it is the biggest enemy of the idea we are discussing.
No, that would be the Lviv patriarchate plopping itself down in Kiev.

I'm curious.  How isn't it Ukrainian?  How is Met. Volodymyr not Ukrainian?
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« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2010, 09:34:29 AM »

Petition of the Synod of UOC to the Holy Synod of ROC.

Impossible. Again, the currently existing "U"OC is NOT Ukrainian and it is the biggest enemy of the idea we are discussing.
No, that would be the Lviv patriarchate plopping itself down in Kiev.

I'm curious.  How isn't it Ukrainian?  How is Met. Volodymyr not Ukrainian?

Like Quisling was Norwegian.Smiley
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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2010, 09:40:24 AM »

Petition of the Synod of UOC to the Holy Synod of ROC.
Was there supposed to be a link?

No. It's my proposal. It would not the decedents.

Impossible. Again, the currently existing "U"OC is NOT Ukrainian and it is the biggest enemy of the idea we are discussing.

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?
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« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2010, 09:43:56 AM »

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2010, 09:47:27 AM »

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

And  those people prefer to be in the illusion of autocephaly to the Catholicity.
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« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2010, 09:49:09 AM »

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
millions don't. That is a large part of the problem.
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« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2010, 10:54:46 AM »

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

And  those people prefer to be in the illusion of autocephaly to the Catholicity.

Let's not judge them and let's not put words in their mouths or thoughts in their heads. They EXIST. They are Orthodox. They cannot be in the "U"OC. What do you propose to do about them? Send them to forced labor camps for "attitude adjustment?" Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2010, 10:57:09 AM »

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
millions don't. That is a large part of the problem.

But those millions that don't may remain in the "U"OC (which could be, in fact, renamed "Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine," just like there is "Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA"). Making UOC-KP and/or UAOC legitimate, recognized by the Orthodox world will in no way harm their interests. Let's concentrate on those millions whose interests ARE harmed.
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« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2010, 11:11:33 AM »

If according to you the Church (it means Hierarchs, Clergy and laity) doesn't want to become autocephalous why to force it on them?

Because there are millions of people in Ukraine who want autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
millions don't. That is a large part of the problem.

But those millions that don't may remain in the "U"OC (which could be, in fact, renamed "Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine," just like there is "Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA").
"Let's not judge them and let's not put words in their mouths or thoughts in their heads. They EXIST. They are Orthodox."

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.
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Making UOC-KP and/or UAOC legitimate, recognized by the Orthodox world will in no way harm their interests.

Of course it will. Phyletism doesn't need to be encouraged (that goes for Pat. Kyrill too).

Quote
Let's concentrate on those millions whose interests ARE harmed.
We are. Picking scabs isn't healing.
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« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2010, 11:22:50 AM »

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.

I said: they - meaning the pro-Russian, void of anything Ukrainian, hierarchs, priests, deacons, other clerics and laity in the so-called "U"OC - aren't Ukrainian. They are often even less Ukrainian than Quisling was Norwegian. He at least did not mind being called Vidkun, a very Norwegian first name. Some faithful in the "U"OC dump their Ukrainian first names and prefer to be called Russian first names (e.g. Alyona instead of Olena, etc.)

Quote
Making UOC-KP and/or UAOC legitimate, recognized by the Orthodox world will in no way harm their interests.

Of course it will. Phyletism doesn't need to be encouraged (that goes for Pat. Kyrill too).

Then let's close the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA, or GOA for that matter?

Quote
Let's concentrate on those millions whose interests ARE harmed.
We are. Picking scabs isn't healing.

So what do you propose?
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« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2010, 11:44:35 AM »

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.

I said: they - meaning the pro-Russian, void of anything Ukrainian, hierarchs, priests, deacons, other clerics and laity in the so-called "U"OC - aren't Ukrainian. They are often even less Ukrainian than Quisling was Norwegian. He at least did not mind being called Vidkun, a very Norwegian first name. Some faithful in the "U"OC dump their Ukrainian first names and prefer to be called Russian first names (e.g. Alyona instead of Olena, etc.)

So the land of their ancestors in which they are born isn't Ukrainian land, being void of anything Ukrainian.

Making UOC-KP and/or UAOC legitimate, recognized by the Orthodox world will in no way harm their interests.

Of course it will. Phyletism doesn't need to be encouraged (that goes for Pat. Kyrill too).

Then let's close the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA, or GOA for that matter?
LOL.  I'm interested in what my Greek detractors would say about that.

Let's concentrate on those millions whose interests ARE harmed.
We are. Picking scabs isn't healing.

So what do you propose?

One, Met. Filaret has got to go.
Two, the Metropolitinate of Kiev be given full autonomy and self rule.  At present, I understand that only the Church of Japan has that in the Patriarchate of Moscow.
Three, the talk of a Tomos of Autocephaly would have to resemble that given to the OCA (e.g. "Patriarchal parishes" restrictions on receiving parishes and exceptions for uncanonical groups etc.) except the primate would bear the title of Patriarch, not Metropolitan.
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« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2010, 11:53:31 AM »

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.

I said: they - meaning the pro-Russian, void of anything Ukrainian, hierarchs, priests, deacons, other clerics and laity in the so-called "U"OC - aren't Ukrainian. They are often even less Ukrainian than Quisling was Norwegian. He at least did not mind being called Vidkun, a very Norwegian first name. Some faithful in the "U"OC dump their Ukrainian first names and prefer to be called Russian first names (e.g. Alyona instead of Olena, etc.)

So the land of their ancestors in which they are born isn't Ukrainian land, being void of anything Ukrainian.

The land is Ukrainian, but they aren't. Or, if you like, they are "nominally Ukrainian."

One, Met. Filaret has got to go.

That will happen naturally in just a few years. He is already 81, going on 82. So when he reposes, do you think it will be constructive for the UOC-KP to not elect their next Patriarch? Or do you think they should just disband?

Two, the Metropolitinate of Kiev be given full autonomy and self rule.  At present, I understand that only the Church of Japan has that in the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Again, within the currently existing "U"OC, a substantial part of hierarchy, clergy and laity will NOT want that to happen. They do not identify with Ukraine. They believe that Moscow is their "spiritual center." They will most actively agitate for NOT giving their jurisdiction autonomy or autocephaly. They think it's an idea that comes from their enemies - Ukrainian nationalists, "Banderites," evil West, Judeo-Masons, etc.

You see, there are two Ukraines, actually... There exist two different worlds within the territory called "Ukraine," two absolutely different civilizations...
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« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2010, 11:56:23 AM »

Let's not judge them and let's not put words in their mouths or thoughts in their heads. They EXIST. They are Orthodox. They cannot be in the "U"OC. What do you propose to do about them? Send them to forced labor camps for "attitude adjustment?" Smiley

I'm not putting anything in their mouths. These are their activities that show it.

IMO they are not "Orthodox".
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« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2010, 12:48:32 PM »

You still haven't explained how they aren't Ukrainian.

I said: they - meaning the pro-Russian, void of anything Ukrainian, hierarchs, priests, deacons, other clerics and laity in the so-called "U"OC - aren't Ukrainian. They are often even less Ukrainian than Quisling was Norwegian. He at least did not mind being called Vidkun, a very Norwegian first name. Some faithful in the "U"OC dump their Ukrainian first names and prefer to be called Russian first names (e.g. Alyona instead of Olena, etc.)

So the land of their ancestors in which they are born isn't Ukrainian land, being void of anything Ukrainian.
The land is Ukrainian, but they aren't. Or, if you like, they are "nominally Ukrainian."

The land that the Czars and Bolsheviks gave Ukraine?
Everyone who lives in USA must respect USA. Everyone who lives in Ukraine must respect Ukraine. The list can be continued until all (195) countries will be mentioned.
Tell me when you get to Palestine in that list.
Respect?  OK. Those in Galicia should respect Poland, those in Zakarpattia should respect Slovakia, those in Bukovina should respect Romania, those in Crimea should respect Russia, and those in the Donbass and other lands of Novorossiya should respect Russia.
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The problems of Ukraine come from trillions of dollars, spent by Putin's dictatorship, special operations of KGB / FSB and special interests of Gazprom, etc., targeting destruction of the country.
and the Ukrainization policies, as pursued by some in the Rada and Yushenko is doing their work from them.  Make the non-Ukrainian ethnicities uneasy about Ukrainian citizenship, and they might just decide that they might just prefer to return to their countries of origin, meaning reunification.  Except of course Galicia: I doubt they want to go back to Poland, and besides, that region is behind much of the forced assimilation/Ukrainianization in the first place.
...so, since he is of Russian origin
LOL.  So is Crimea and half of Ukraine.
[imgwidth=500]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ukraine-Little_Rus_1654.png/250px-Ukraine-Little_Rus_1654.png[/img]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Ukraine-Little_Rus_1654.png/250px-Ukraine-Little_Rus_1654.png
Ukrainian Hetmanate at the time of the union with the Russian Empire, and the present day borders of Ukraine.
No way that half of Ukraine has Russian origin.
Look at the map.  That part on the East all was non-Slavic territory until the Russian empire defeated the Tartars et alia (there were religious differences too, Islam and before that Judaism).  It was basically empty (the nomads didn't settle much and pulled back), and was filled by East Slavs (the distinction at this point between Russian and Ukrainian is problematic).  It wasn't made part of Ukraine until the U.S.S.R. did that, which is also how Ukraine got those territories in the West.

One, Met. Filaret has got to go.

That will happen naturally in just a few years. He is already 81, going on 82. So when he reposes, do you think it will be constructive for the UOC-KP to not elect their next Patriarch? Or do you think they should just disband?

Two, the Metropolitinate of Kiev be given full autonomy and self rule.  At present, I understand that only the Church of Japan has that in the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Again, within the currently existing "U"OC, a substantial part of hierarchy, clergy and laity will NOT want that to happen. They do not identify with Ukraine. They believe that Moscow is their "spiritual center." They will most actively agitate for NOT giving their jurisdiction autonomy or autocephaly. They think it's an idea that comes from their enemies - Ukrainian nationalists, "Banderites," evil West, Judeo-Masons, etc.

You see, there are two Ukraines, actually... There exist two different worlds within the territory called "Ukraine," two absolutely different civilizations...
Since they have been judged traitors to Ukraine, they might as well prove themselves utra-nationalists for Russia (or Ruthenia/Carparto-Russia).
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« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2010, 03:58:23 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
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« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2010, 04:03:21 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed

OK, I propose that the breakaway Churches repent of the schism, and that the ROC-MP takes them back in love and welcomes them as equal brothers in Christ.  I also propose that the Greek Catholics repent and become part of the big happy family, and that all Russians and Ukrainians live in peace and unity from henceforth and forever more.  Now excuse me while I go to the end of my rainbow and feed my unicorn.
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« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2010, 05:53:37 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed

OK, I propose that the breakaway Churches repent of the schism, and that the ROC-MP takes them back in love and welcomes them as equal brothers in Christ.  I also propose that the Greek Catholics repent and become part of the big happy family, and that all Russians and Ukrainians live in peace and unity from henceforth and forever more.  Now excuse me while I go to the end of my rainbow and feed my unicorn.

I appreciate your humor.Smiley But it's a real tragedy for several million people, and something has to be done...
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« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2010, 06:05:00 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed

OK, I propose that the breakaway Churches repent of the schism, and that the ROC-MP takes them back in love and welcomes them as equal brothers in Christ.  I also propose that the Greek Catholics repent and become part of the big happy family, and that all Russians and Ukrainians live in peace and unity from henceforth and forever more.  Now excuse me while I go to the end of my rainbow and feed my unicorn.

I appreciate your humor.Smiley But it's a real tragedy for several million people, and something has to be done...

I am glad that you took it as humor because that is how it was intended.  And even though I do not understand the people’s feeling of tragedy, I agree that the situation is sad and pray for a solution acceptable to all sides.
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« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2010, 06:12:53 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
That's all Fr. V. is doing.
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« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2010, 06:51:11 PM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?
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« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2010, 06:54:33 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
That's all Fr. V. is doing.

Well, he is informing about a certain bad, tragic situation. He might be too polemic, granted. But I can confirm, as a Ukrainian who visits Ukraine every 2 years and talks with many people from there, that millions of Ukrainians will never, ever, ever join the existing canonical "U"OC. Unlike my friend and brother Mike here, I cannot judgementally proclaim them "not Orthodox." They ARE Orthodox, but they are ALSO Ukrainian patriots. One can be an Orthodox and a loving father or husband or son or daughter. Similarly, one CAN be Orthodox and also love one's country, land, people, history, customs, language. None of the latter will ever develop within the "U"OC, because it is led by hierarchs who consider Moscow, not Kyiv, their "spiritual center," and literally take orders from there. So, what are we to do?
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« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2010, 06:56:50 PM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

Exactly. That's what I think, too.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?

Well, according to Fr. Vintsukevych, patr. +KIRILL is *PAYING* HAH. So, it will be just a "piece of cake" (a very easy thing to do) for him to pay those smaller prelates and have them do his (Patr. +KIRILL's) politics.
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« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2010, 07:01:56 PM »

Well, according to Fr. Vintsukevych, patr. +KIRILL is *PAYING* HAH. So, it will be just a "piece of cake" (a very easy thing to do) for him to pay those smaller prelates and have them do his (Patr. +KIRILL's) politics.

Maybe. But there are still 14 canonical churches, one of them coulöd be found to refuse Moscow money. Maybe Romania, they are financed by their state anyway, and they are not on good terms with the MP because Moscow has parishes in Moldavia.

In my opinion, Romania is the largest Orthodox Church, in terms of people who actually attend on Sunday. The MP has more nominal members, but most of them  show up only for Easter, Transfiguration and maybe Christmas.
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« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2010, 07:33:44 PM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?
Because they will have to deal with Moscow, who has the canons on their side.
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« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2010, 07:35:54 PM »

^^^So, guys, you aren't proposing anything? At least anything workable? Just judging, judging...  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
That's all Fr. V. is doing.

Well, he is informing about a certain bad, tragic situation.

He inflames more than he informs.

Quote
He might be too polemic, granted. But I can confirm, as a Ukrainian who visits Ukraine every 2 years and talks with many people from there, that millions of Ukrainians will never, ever, ever join the existing canonical "U"OC. Unlike my friend and brother Mike here, I cannot judgementally proclaim them "not Orthodox." They ARE Orthodox, but they are ALSO Ukrainian patriots. One can be an Orthodox and a loving father or husband or son or daughter. Similarly, one CAN be Orthodox and also love one's country, land, people, history, customs, language. None of the latter will ever develop within the "U"OC, because it is led by hierarchs who consider Moscow, not Kyiv, their "spiritual center," and literally take orders from there. So, what are we to do?
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« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2010, 08:18:21 PM »

Well, according to Fr. Vintsukevych, patr. +KIRILL is *PAYING* HAH. So, it will be just a "piece of cake" (a very easy thing to do) for him to pay those smaller prelates and have them do his (Patr. +KIRILL's) politics.

Maybe. But there are still 14 canonical churches, one of them coulöd be found to refuse Moscow money. Maybe Romania, they are financed by their state anyway, and they are not on good terms with the MP because Moscow has parishes in Moldavia.

In my opinion, Romania is the largest Orthodox Church, in terms of people who actually attend on Sunday. The MP has more nominal members, but most of them  show up only for Easter, Transfiguration and maybe Christmas.
Constantinople wasn't bought off in 1589 nor 1687 nor now.  Fr. V. would like to portray EP +DIONYSIS as bribed. Such evidently was not the case, given the facts and circumstances, as opposed to allegations, over the issue.

Btw, Ukraine has Northern Bucovina, and the Romanians want it back, along with other territory that Khrushchev gave Ukraine.
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« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2010, 02:17:19 AM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?

But they want to be autocephalous.
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« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2010, 08:53:12 AM »

Well, according to Fr. Vintsukevych, patr. +KIRILL is *PAYING* HAH. So, it will be just a "piece of cake" (a very easy thing to do) for him to pay those smaller prelates and have them do his (Patr. +KIRILL's) politics.

Maybe. But there are still 14 canonical churches, one of them coulöd be found to refuse Moscow money. Maybe Romania, they are financed by their state anyway, and they are not on good terms with the MP because Moscow has parishes in Moldavia.

In my opinion, Romania is the largest Orthodox Church, in terms of people who actually attend on Sunday. The MP has more nominal members, but most of them  show up only for Easter, Transfiguration and maybe Christmas.
Constantinople wasn't bought off in 1589 nor 1687 nor now.  Fr. V. would like to portray EP +DIONYSIS as bribed. Such evidently was not the case, given the facts and circumstances, as opposed to allegations, over the issue.

Btw, Ukraine has Northern Bucovina, and the Romanians want it back, along with other territory that Khrushchev gave Ukraine.

Keeping obfuscationg, aren't you...
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« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2010, 08:54:13 AM »

We have jurisdictional chaos in most of the world anyway, why not also in Ukraine? I think for now the only solution can be in having parallel canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine.

If Constantinople does not take in the UOC-KP, they might consider joining Antioch, Cyprus, or why not the Church of Poland?

But they want to be autocephalous.

Yes, but maybe a RECOGNITION from the Church of Poland, of Romania, of ..., ..., ... would be a nice first step...
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« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2010, 12:36:57 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick
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« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2010, 12:41:19 PM »

Because they will have to deal with Moscow, who has the canons on their side.
The issue is more complex than that. And Constantinople still doesnt recognize Ukraine as Moscow's "canonical territory". From Constantinople's point of view, the MP in Ukraine is comparable to the MP in France or Australia.

Btw, Ukraine has Northern Bucovina, and the Romanians want it back, along with other territory that Khrushchev gave Ukraine.
I am not sure whether you are just misinformed, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts, but Romania has clearly stated that it has no territorial claims to Ukraine. (What many Romanian politicians do want, is to annex Moldova). Romanians in Ukraine have guaranteed minority rights, and both countries are fine with the current situation. (And so are Ukrainian Romanians themselves, because they make quite some money with smuggling Vodka and other things).

But they want to be autocephalous.
Yes, but they would accept a provisional autonomy under Constantinople in order to become canonical. So my point is: If it doesnt work with Constantinople, why not Romania or some other canonical church?

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.
You seem to be quite one-sided in this issue. Why dont you also tell the MP to cut out Russian nationalism?
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« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2010, 12:43:44 PM »

But they want to be autocephalous.
Yes, but they would accept a provisional autonomy under Constantinople in order to become canonical. So my point is: If it doesnt work with Constantinople, why not Romania or some other canonical church?

What is the difference between being autonomous under Moscow and Constantinople? Is Hellenisation better that Russification?
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« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2010, 12:46:53 PM »

What is the difference between being autonomous under Moscow and Constantinople? Is Hellenisation better that Russification?

There is no danger of hellenisation.  There are jurisdictions under Constantinople in Finland, Estonia and France (Rue Daru/Saint Serge), and they are not hellenized.
You should also know that Greece is not putting political pressure on Ukraine, and it is not using the church for such purposes either.

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« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2010, 12:52:06 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

It's the same as to say, "cut one half of your head off, and you will have solved the issue of hunger, cold, sickness and all other discomforts of this so-called life."

Both halves of my head are equally important to me, Orthodox and Ukrainian. And millions of others in Ukraine feel the same way. We are not putting any of these two halves ahead of the other.
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« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2010, 12:53:44 PM »

But they want to be autocephalous.
Yes, but they would accept a provisional autonomy under Constantinople in order to become canonical. So my point is: If it doesnt work with Constantinople, why not Romania or some other canonical church?

What is the difference between being autonomous under Moscow and Constantinople? Is Hellenisation better that Russification?

Because Moscow does not want independent Ukraine to exist. Constantinople simply does not care about this issue - Grreks aren't going to take over the Ukrainian national, cultural life.
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« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2010, 12:59:17 PM »

 
Quote
am not sure whether you are just misinformed, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts, but Romania has clearly stated that it has no territorial claims to Ukraine. (What many Romanian politicians do want, is to annex Moldova). Romanians in Ukraine have guaranteed minority rights, and both countries are fine with the current situation. (And so are Ukrainian Romanians themselves, because they make quite some money with smuggling Vodka and other things).
Ialmisry is just misinformed, probably: Romany and Ukraine have signed a "Basic Treaty" (Tratatul de baza romano-ucrainian) more than a decade ago (IIRC) by which all territorial claims were officially put to rest, except maybe, for the Snakes' Island.
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« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2010, 01:02:06 PM »

Quote
am not sure whether you are just misinformed, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts, but Romania has clearly stated that it has no territorial claims to Ukraine. (What many Romanian politicians do want, is to annex Moldova). Romanians in Ukraine have guaranteed minority rights, and both countries are fine with the current situation. (And so are Ukrainian Romanians themselves, because they make quite some money with smuggling Vodka and other things).
Ialmisry is just misinformed, probably: Romany and Ukraine have signed a "Basic Treaty" (Tratatul de baza romano-ucrainian) more than a decade ago (IIRC) by which all territorial claims were officially put to rest, except maybe, for the Snakes' Island.

He is "misinformed" in many other claims he is making, beginning from showing pictures from cartoonish Bolshevik propaganda and calling them "history."
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« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2010, 01:34:58 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

It's the same as to say, "cut one half of your head off, and you will have solved the issue of hunger, cold, sickness and all other discomforts of this so-called life."

Both halves of my head are equally important to me, Orthodox and Ukrainian. And millions of others in Ukraine feel the same way. We are not putting any of these two halves ahead of the other.

Well, then I suppose this will never be solved. What would the Eastern Ukrainians say about this? Have you ever asked their opinions or have you simply been talking to biased Western Ukrainians?
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« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2010, 03:08:05 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

O.K.  Then have the Patriarch of Moscow remove Russian nationalism from the Russian Orthodox Church and its branch in Ukraine.  The sword cuts both ways you see.  Either the Russian Orthodox Church makes an idol out of the Russian nation in the form of "Holy Russia" or the Third Rome, or it cuts such idolatry out and serves Christ first.  For instance, what was the purpose behind having the Russian Orthodox Church's hierarchy engage in Blessing the Anniversary of the start of the atheistic Soviet Regime's development of nuclear weapons recently, which nuclear weapons now are the Russian nuclear forces which missiles may be aimed at the posters here from North America, Poland, Europe.

Or how about this link from a Russian Orthodox Church's website in North America to a Russian Orthodox T.V. website.  The first video is in the middle of the page.

http://russtv.ru/content2/evabglie_mesta.shtml

What does this have to do with Orthodoxy?  Do you approve of Russian nationalism being a tenet of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Surely you cannot if you object to "Ukrainian nationalism" which in the context of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine may simply mean opposition to Russification.
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« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2010, 03:15:20 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

It's the same as to say, "cut one half of your head off, and you will have solved the issue of hunger, cold, sickness and all other discomforts of this so-called life."

Both halves of my head are equally important to me, Orthodox and Ukrainian. And millions of others in Ukraine feel the same way. We are not putting any of these two halves ahead of the other.

Well, then I suppose this will never be solved. What would the Eastern Ukrainians say about this? Have you ever asked their opinions or have you simply been talking to biased Western Ukrainians?

The division is not simply into Eastern vs. Western. There are people in Luhans'k and Donets'k who want Ukrainian language in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and there are people in Ternopil' and Uzh'horod who do not. It's not by territory - rather, by mentality. But the point is, the interests of those who are OK with UOC (MP) as it is now are not harmed. The interests of the other half of Ukrainians are. that's why I think that simply recognition of either UOC-KP, or UAOC, or both of them IN PARALLEL with the already existing canonical UOC will be a good solution. Nobody will forcefully drag Moscow-leaning Ukrainians into the REALLY Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdiction. Let them remain in their "U"OC.
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« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2010, 03:18:44 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

O.K.  Then have the Patriarch of Moscow remove Russian nationalism from the Russian Orthodox Church and its branch in Ukraine.  The sword cuts both ways you see.  Either the Russian Orthodox Church makes an idol out of the Russian nation in the form of "Holy Russia" or the Third Rome, or it cuts such idolatry out and serves Christ first.  For instance, what was the purpose behind having the Russian Orthodox Church's hierarchy engage in Blessing the Anniversary of the start of the atheistic Soviet Regime's development of nuclear weapons recently, which nuclear weapons now are the Russian nuclear forces which missiles may be aimed at the posters here from North America, Poland, Europe.

Or how about this link from a Russian Orthodox Church's website in North America to a Russian Orthodox T.V. website.  The first video is in the middle of the page.

http://russtv.ru/content2/evabglie_mesta.shtml

What does this have to do with Orthodoxy?  Do you approve of Russian nationalism being a tenet of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Surely you cannot if you object to "Ukrainian nationalism" which in the context of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine may simply mean opposition to Russification.

Good points.

Abot two months ago, people from the "U"OC were discussing a very "Orthodox" event that took place in Kyiv (the capital of Ukraine), called the Orthodox Ballroom Dance Contest. The participants-men were dressed in the imperial Russian Army uniforms, with 'axelbants" and chevrons showing rank of the Russian imperial army officers.

I must say, even some otherwise loyal to Moscow "U"OC priests were bewildered. But Russian "Orthodox" (Huh) newspapers triumphed.
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« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2010, 04:17:38 PM »

Remove Ukrainian Nationalism and rejoin the church as proper and canonical. Cut this Ukrainian identity out of the church and you will have solved the issue.


-Nick

O.K.  Then have the Patriarch of Moscow remove Russian nationalism from the Russian Orthodox Church and its branch in Ukraine.  The sword cuts both ways you see.  Either the Russian Orthodox Church makes an idol out of the Russian nation in the form of "Holy Russia" or the Third Rome, or it cuts such idolatry out and serves Christ first.  For instance, what was the purpose behind having the Russian Orthodox Church's hierarchy engage in Blessing the Anniversary of the start of the atheistic Soviet Regime's development of nuclear weapons recently, which nuclear weapons now are the Russian nuclear forces which missiles may be aimed at the posters here from North America, Poland, Europe.

Or how about this link from a Russian Orthodox Church's website in North America to a Russian Orthodox T.V. website.  The first video is in the middle of the page.

http://russtv.ru/content2/evabglie_mesta.shtml

What does this have to do with Orthodoxy?  Do you approve of Russian nationalism being a tenet of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Surely you cannot if you object to "Ukrainian nationalism" which in the context of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine may simply mean opposition to Russification.

Whats the National Religion of Russia?

Now what's the National Religion of Ukraine?


Therein lies your answer.


-Nick
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« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2010, 04:28:09 PM »

Whats the National Religion of Russia?

Imperialism. Control of territories where "loyal" Russian-loving subjects are supposed to live.

Now what's the National Religion of Ukraine?

None that I know of.

Therein lies your answer.

To what question?
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« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2010, 04:59:05 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

In the meantime:

Because they will have to deal with Moscow, who has the canons on their side.
The issue is more complex than that. And Constantinople still doesnt recognize Ukraine as Moscow's "canonical territory". From Constantinople's point of view, the MP in Ukraine is comparable to the MP in France or Australia.

Since, although Ukraine is not within the internationally recognized borders of the Federation of Russia, ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus', on what basis would Constantinople have not to recognize Moscow jurisdiction over all of Ukraine?  On what basis would compare Ukraine to France or Australia?  For that matter, what jurisdiction does Constantinople have over France or Australia, let alone Ukraine?

What does "still" mean? From 1687? Or did you mean "any longer since 1991?"
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« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2010, 06:03:43 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police
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« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2010, 08:08:13 PM »

ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?


Really, I do not understand how people completely underlated to the question have so much contempt for Ukraine...
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« Reply #90 on: August 26, 2010, 08:31:33 PM »

ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?


Really, I do not understand how people completely underlated to the question have so much contempt for Ukraine...

Yes.  Me too. Statements by some here like Romanians want Bukovyna "back" (sic) are not only factually incorrect but seem only to be aimed at denigrating Ukrainians and/or the Ukrainian state.  They are also absolutely unrelated to the OP as well.  Ukrainians, like many European nations in Eastern Europe, had to undergo "nation-building" so to speak without benefit of a state for some time.  This is true for many nations in Eastern Europe.  It doesn't matter to some however.  I am kinda still new here but am slightly surprised at the animosity of some posters to things Ukrainian, and find it hard to reconcile with Christian virtue or love.
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« Reply #91 on: August 26, 2010, 08:37:00 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

Soo the Bolsheviks didn't storm the Winter Palace. I'm sure both the Imperial family and Kerensky will be glad to hear that.
Quote
"Like a black river, filling all the street...we poured through the Red Arch."

John Reed was born to privilege in Oregon. He attended Harvard and after graduating in 1910, pursued a carrier in journalism. His coverage of labor strikes in New Jersey and the Mexican Revolution turned his political leanings to the left. In 1917 he traveled to Russia to cover the turmoil there. He immediately embraced the Bolshevik cause and was welcomed into the movement. John Reed died of typhus in Moscow on October 20, 1920 at age 33. His body lay in state and was buried in Red Square. The day of his funeral was declared a national holiday.


He joined the assault on the Winter Palace and later wrote of his experience.  Once in power, the Bolsheviks revised the Russian calendar, substituting the older Julian calendar with the Gregorian calendar used by most European countries. Under this new calendar, the date of the assault on the Winter Palace changed from October 25 to November 6.   We join his story as the insurrectionist mob makes its way down the darkened streets of St. Petersburg:

"Like a black river, filling all the street, without song or cheer we poured through the Red Arch, where the man just ahead of me said in a low voice: ‘Look out, comrades! Don't trust them. They will fire, surely!’ In the open we began to run, stooping low and bunching together, and jammed up suddenly behind the pedestal of the Alexander Column.

‘How many of you did they kill?’ I asked. ‘I don't know. About ten.’

After a few minutes huddling there, some hundreds of men, the army seemed reassured and without any orders suddenly began again to flow forward. By this time, in the light that streamed out of all the Winter Palace windows, I could see that the first two or three hundred men were Red Guards, with only a few scattered soldiers. Over the barricade of firewood we clambered, and leaping down inside gave a triumphant shout as we stumbled on a heap of rifles thrown down the yunkers who had stood there.

On both sides of the main gateway the doors stood wide open, light streamed out. and from the huge pile came not the slightest sound. carried along by the eager wave of men we were swept into the right hand entrance, opening into a great bare vaulted room, the cellar of the East wing, from which issued a maze of corridors and stair-cases. A number of huge packing cases stood about, and upon these the Red Guards -and soldiers fell furiously, battering them open with the butts of their rifles, and pulling out carpets, curtains, linen, porcelain plates, glassware.

One man went strutting around with a bronze clock perched on his shoulder; another found a plume of ostrich feathers, which he stuck in his hat. The looting was just beginning when somebody cried, ‘Comrades! Don't touch anything! Don't take anything! This is the property of the People!’ Immediately twenty voices were crying, ‘Stop! Put everything back! Don't take anything! Property of the People!’ Many hands dragged the spoilers down. Damask and tapestry were snatched from the arms of those who had them; two men took away the bronze clock. Roughly and hastily the things were crammed back in their cases, and self-appointed sentinels stood guard. It was all utterly spontaneous. Through corridors and up stair-cases the cry could be heard growing fainter and fainter in the distance, ‘Revolutionary discipline! Property of the People.’

We crossed back over to the left entrance, in the West wing. There order was also being established. ‘Clear the Palace!’ bawled a Red Guard, sticking his head through an inner door. ‘Come, comrades, let's show that we're not thieves and bandits. Everybody out of the Palace except, the Commissars, until we get sentries posted.’

Two Red Guards, a soldier and an officer, stood with revolvers in their hands. Another soldier sat at a table behind them, with pen and paper. Shouts of ‘All out! All out!’ were heard far and near within, and the Army began to pour through the door, jostling, expostulating, arguing. As each man appeared he was seized by the self-appointed committee, who went through his pockets and looked under his coat. Everything that was plainly not his property was taken away, the man at the table noted it on his paper, and it was carried into a little room.

...Yunkers came out, in bunches of three or four. The committee seized upon them with an excess of zeal, accompanying the search with remarks like, ‘Ah, Provocators! Kornilovists! Counter-revolutionists! Murderers of the People!’ But there was no violence done, although the yunkers were terrified. They too had their pockets full of small plunder. It waa carefully noted down by the scribe, and piled in the little room. The yunkers were disarmed. ‘Now, will you take up arms against the People any more?’ demanded clamouring voices.

"No," answered the yunkers, one by one. Whereupon they were allowed to go free.

...In the meanwhile unrebuked we walked into the Palace. There was still a great deal of coming and going, of exploring new - found apartments in the vast edifice, of searching for hidden garrisons of yunkers which did not exist. We went upstairs and wandered through room after room.

..The old Palace servants in their blue and red and gold uniforms stood nervously about, from force of habit repeating, ‘You can't go in there, harm! It is forbidden.’ We penetrated at length to the gold and malachite chamber with crimson brocade hangings where the Ministers had been in session all that day and night and where the shveitzari had betrayed them to the Red Guards. The long table covered with green baize was just as they had left it, under arrest. Before each empty seat was pen and ink and paper; the papers were scribbled over with beginnings of plans of action, rough drafts of proclamations and manifestos. Most of these were scratched out, as their futility became evident, and the rest of the sheet covered with absent-minded geometrical designs, as the writers sat despondently listening while Minister after Minister proposed chimerical schemes. I took one of these scribbled pages, in the h-and writing of Konovalov, which read, ‘The Provisional Government appeals to all classes to support the Provisional Government.’

...we didn't notice a change in the attitude of the soldiers and Red Guards around us. As we strolled from room to room a small group followed us, until by the time we reached the great picture gallery where we had spent the afternoon with the yunkers, about a hundred men surged in after us. One giant of a soldier stood in our path, his face dark with sullen suspicion.

.‘Who are you?’ he growled. ‘What are you doing here?’ The others massed slowly around, staring and beginning to mutter. ‘Provocatori’I heard somebody say. ‘'Looters !’ I produced our passes from the Military Revolutionary Committee. The soldier took them gingerly, turned them upside down and looked at them without comprehension. Evidently he could not read. He handed them back and spat on the floor. ‘Bumagi! Papers!’ said he with contempt. The mass slowly began to close in, like wild cattle around a cowpuncher on foot. Over their heads I caught sight of an officer, looking helpless, and shouted to him. He made for us shouldering his way through.

'I'm the Commissar,' he said to me. ‘Who are you? What is it?’ The others held back, waiting. I produced the papers.

'You are foreigners?' he rapidly asked in French. 'It is very dangerous.' Then he turned to the mob, holding up our documents. ‘Comrades!’ he cried. 'These people are foreign comrades from America. They have come here to be able to tell their countrymen about the bravery and the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army!'

'How do you know that?' replied the big soldier.'‘I tell you they are provocators! They say they came here to observe the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army, but they have been wandering freely through the Palace, and how do we know they haven't got their pockets full of loot?'

'Pravilno!' snarled the others, pressing forward.

'Comrades! Comrades!' appealed the officer, sweat standing out on his forehead. ‘I am Commissar of the Military Revolutionary Committee. Do you trust me? Well, I tell you that these passes are signed with the same names that are signed to my pass!’

He led us down through the Palace and out through a door opening onto the Neva quay, before which stood the usual committee going through pockets. ‘You have narrowly escaped,’ he kept muttering, wiping his face.

References:
   This eyewitness account appears in: Reed, John, Ten Days That Shook the World (1935); Salisbury, Harrison, Black night, white snow: Russia's Revolutions 1905-1917 (1977).

How To Cite This Article:
"The Bolsheviks Storm the Winter Palace, 1917" EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2006).
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/bolshevik.htm

Maybe you prefer photos, though you can't see their party cards, this is identified as Bolshevik volunteers

Maybe you can interpret this
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« Reply #92 on: August 26, 2010, 08:44:22 PM »

ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?

I will, once I get back, Lord willing.  For one thing, Filoret was defrocked by the Holy Synod of Moscow, and all Orthodox Churches recognize it.

In the meantime, I'll ask again, what is the basis of your statement "On what basis would you compare Ukraine to France or Australia?" How is Moscow's jurisdiction in France or in Australia like Moscow's jurisdiction over Ukraine?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 08:47:05 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: August 26, 2010, 08:57:18 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

Soo the Bolsheviks didn't storm the Winter Palace. I'm sure both the Imperial family and Kerensky will be glad to hear that.
Quote
"Like a black river, filling all the street...we poured through the Red Arch."

John Reed was born to privilege in Oregon. He attended Harvard and after graduating in 1910, pursued a carrier in journalism. His coverage of labor strikes in New Jersey and the Mexican Revolution turned his political leanings to the left. In 1917 he traveled to Russia to cover the turmoil there. He immediately embraced the Bolshevik cause and was welcomed into the movement. John Reed died of typhus in Moscow on October 20, 1920 at age 33. His body lay in state and was buried in Red Square. The day of his funeral was declared a national holiday.


He joined the assault on the Winter Palace and later wrote of his experience.  Once in power, the Bolsheviks revised the Russian calendar, substituting the older Julian calendar with the Gregorian calendar used by most European countries. Under this new calendar, the date of the assault on the Winter Palace changed from October 25 to November 6.   We join his story as the insurrectionist mob makes its way down the darkened streets of St. Petersburg:

"Like a black river, filling all the street, without song or cheer we poured through the Red Arch, where the man just ahead of me said in a low voice: ‘Look out, comrades! Don't trust them. They will fire, surely!’ In the open we began to run, stooping low and bunching together, and jammed up suddenly behind the pedestal of the Alexander Column.

‘How many of you did they kill?’ I asked. ‘I don't know. About ten.’

After a few minutes huddling there, some hundreds of men, the army seemed reassured and without any orders suddenly began again to flow forward. By this time, in the light that streamed out of all the Winter Palace windows, I could see that the first two or three hundred men were Red Guards, with only a few scattered soldiers. Over the barricade of firewood we clambered, and leaping down inside gave a triumphant shout as we stumbled on a heap of rifles thrown down the yunkers who had stood there.

On both sides of the main gateway the doors stood wide open, light streamed out. and from the huge pile came not the slightest sound. carried along by the eager wave of men we were swept into the right hand entrance, opening into a great bare vaulted room, the cellar of the East wing, from which issued a maze of corridors and stair-cases. A number of huge packing cases stood about, and upon these the Red Guards -and soldiers fell furiously, battering them open with the butts of their rifles, and pulling out carpets, curtains, linen, porcelain plates, glassware.

One man went strutting around with a bronze clock perched on his shoulder; another found a plume of ostrich feathers, which he stuck in his hat. The looting was just beginning when somebody cried, ‘Comrades! Don't touch anything! Don't take anything! This is the property of the People!’ Immediately twenty voices were crying, ‘Stop! Put everything back! Don't take anything! Property of the People!’ Many hands dragged the spoilers down. Damask and tapestry were snatched from the arms of those who had them; two men took away the bronze clock. Roughly and hastily the things were crammed back in their cases, and self-appointed sentinels stood guard. It was all utterly spontaneous. Through corridors and up stair-cases the cry could be heard growing fainter and fainter in the distance, ‘Revolutionary discipline! Property of the People.’

We crossed back over to the left entrance, in the West wing. There order was also being established. ‘Clear the Palace!’ bawled a Red Guard, sticking his head through an inner door. ‘Come, comrades, let's show that we're not thieves and bandits. Everybody out of the Palace except, the Commissars, until we get sentries posted.’

Two Red Guards, a soldier and an officer, stood with revolvers in their hands. Another soldier sat at a table behind them, with pen and paper. Shouts of ‘All out! All out!’ were heard far and near within, and the Army began to pour through the door, jostling, expostulating, arguing. As each man appeared he was seized by the self-appointed committee, who went through his pockets and looked under his coat. Everything that was plainly not his property was taken away, the man at the table noted it on his paper, and it was carried into a little room.

...Yunkers came out, in bunches of three or four. The committee seized upon them with an excess of zeal, accompanying the search with remarks like, ‘Ah, Provocators! Kornilovists! Counter-revolutionists! Murderers of the People!’ But there was no violence done, although the yunkers were terrified. They too had their pockets full of small plunder. It waa carefully noted down by the scribe, and piled in the little room. The yunkers were disarmed. ‘Now, will you take up arms against the People any more?’ demanded clamouring voices.

"No," answered the yunkers, one by one. Whereupon they were allowed to go free.

...In the meanwhile unrebuked we walked into the Palace. There was still a great deal of coming and going, of exploring new - found apartments in the vast edifice, of searching for hidden garrisons of yunkers which did not exist. We went upstairs and wandered through room after room.

..The old Palace servants in their blue and red and gold uniforms stood nervously about, from force of habit repeating, ‘You can't go in there, harm! It is forbidden.’ We penetrated at length to the gold and malachite chamber with crimson brocade hangings where the Ministers had been in session all that day and night and where the shveitzari had betrayed them to the Red Guards. The long table covered with green baize was just as they had left it, under arrest. Before each empty seat was pen and ink and paper; the papers were scribbled over with beginnings of plans of action, rough drafts of proclamations and manifestos. Most of these were scratched out, as their futility became evident, and the rest of the sheet covered with absent-minded geometrical designs, as the writers sat despondently listening while Minister after Minister proposed chimerical schemes. I took one of these scribbled pages, in the h-and writing of Konovalov, which read, ‘The Provisional Government appeals to all classes to support the Provisional Government.’

...we didn't notice a change in the attitude of the soldiers and Red Guards around us. As we strolled from room to room a small group followed us, until by the time we reached the great picture gallery where we had spent the afternoon with the yunkers, about a hundred men surged in after us. One giant of a soldier stood in our path, his face dark with sullen suspicion.

.‘Who are you?’ he growled. ‘What are you doing here?’ The others massed slowly around, staring and beginning to mutter. ‘Provocatori’I heard somebody say. ‘'Looters !’ I produced our passes from the Military Revolutionary Committee. The soldier took them gingerly, turned them upside down and looked at them without comprehension. Evidently he could not read. He handed them back and spat on the floor. ‘Bumagi! Papers!’ said he with contempt. The mass slowly began to close in, like wild cattle around a cowpuncher on foot. Over their heads I caught sight of an officer, looking helpless, and shouted to him. He made for us shouldering his way through.

'I'm the Commissar,' he said to me. ‘Who are you? What is it?’ The others held back, waiting. I produced the papers.

'You are foreigners?' he rapidly asked in French. 'It is very dangerous.' Then he turned to the mob, holding up our documents. ‘Comrades!’ he cried. 'These people are foreign comrades from America. They have come here to be able to tell their countrymen about the bravery and the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army!'

'How do you know that?' replied the big soldier.'‘I tell you they are provocators! They say they came here to observe the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army, but they have been wandering freely through the Palace, and how do we know they haven't got their pockets full of loot?'

'Pravilno!' snarled the others, pressing forward.

'Comrades! Comrades!' appealed the officer, sweat standing out on his forehead. ‘I am Commissar of the Military Revolutionary Committee. Do you trust me? Well, I tell you that these passes are signed with the same names that are signed to my pass!’

He led us down through the Palace and out through a door opening onto the Neva quay, before which stood the usual committee going through pockets. ‘You have narrowly escaped,’ he kept muttering, wiping his face.

References:
   This eyewitness account appears in: Reed, John, Ten Days That Shook the World (1935); Salisbury, Harrison, Black night, white snow: Russia's Revolutions 1905-1917 (1977).

How To Cite This Article:
"The Bolsheviks Storm the Winter Palace, 1917" EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2006).
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/bolshevik.htm

Maybe you prefer photos, though you can't see their party cards, this is identified as Bolshevik volunteers

Maybe you can interpret this


What is the point of a long quote from American communist John Reed.  Anyone familiar with the Bolsheviks know they forcefully seized power in Russia.  I think the whole point that was being addressed was that those Bolsheviks were mostly Russian.  Period.  And the Whites were Russian.  But the Russian Reds beat the Russian Whites.  The point was Berdyaev pointing to the origins of Russian communism in the Russian messianic spirit, the nihilism propagated by revolutionary Russias in the 19th century, etc.  Are you claiming Bolshevism wasn't supported by any Russians?  You mentioned Bela Kun, and Bavaria, but the point there was that Communism did not succeed.  It only succeeded internally in Russia.  Russia's President Putin lays flowers at the grave of Denikin at the same time he posts official Russian stamps honoring the Soviet Secret Policemen of the 1930s like Vsevolod Balitsky who was head of the N.K.V.D. in Ukraine during the Holodomor.  So the current regime in Russia seems to be laying claim both to Red and White Russia in some kind of amalgam.

The point however is that Bolshevism came to power in Russia proper and stayed there and spread at gunpoint from Russia.  Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
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« Reply #94 on: August 26, 2010, 10:37:38 PM »

ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?

I will, once I get back, Lord willing.  For one thing, Filoret was defrocked by the Holy Synod of Moscow, and all Orthodox Churches recognize it.

For absolutely false, unproven accusations; and the fact they recognize it simply witness that HAH is on ROC payroll.
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« Reply #95 on: August 26, 2010, 10:43:52 PM »

I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  

I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

Soo the Bolsheviks didn't storm the Winter Palace. I'm sure both the Imperial family and Kerensky will be glad to hear that.
Quote
"Like a black river, filling all the street...we poured through the Red Arch."

John Reed was born to privilege in Oregon. He attended Harvard and after graduating in 1910, pursued a carrier in journalism. His coverage of labor strikes in New Jersey and the Mexican Revolution turned his political leanings to the left. In 1917 he traveled to Russia to cover the turmoil there. He immediately embraced the Bolshevik cause and was welcomed into the movement. John Reed died of typhus in Moscow on October 20, 1920 at age 33. His body lay in state and was buried in Red Square. The day of his funeral was declared a national holiday.


He joined the assault on the Winter Palace and later wrote of his experience.  Once in power, the Bolsheviks revised the Russian calendar, substituting the older Julian calendar with the Gregorian calendar used by most European countries. Under this new calendar, the date of the assault on the Winter Palace changed from October 25 to November 6.   We join his story as the insurrectionist mob makes its way down the darkened streets of St. Petersburg:

"Like a black river, filling all the street, without song or cheer we poured through the Red Arch, where the man just ahead of me said in a low voice: ‘Look out, comrades! Don't trust them. They will fire, surely!’ In the open we began to run, stooping low and bunching together, and jammed up suddenly behind the pedestal of the Alexander Column.

‘How many of you did they kill?’ I asked. ‘I don't know. About ten.’

After a few minutes huddling there, some hundreds of men, the army seemed reassured and without any orders suddenly began again to flow forward. By this time, in the light that streamed out of all the Winter Palace windows, I could see that the first two or three hundred men were Red Guards, with only a few scattered soldiers. Over the barricade of firewood we clambered, and leaping down inside gave a triumphant shout as we stumbled on a heap of rifles thrown down the yunkers who had stood there.

On both sides of the main gateway the doors stood wide open, light streamed out. and from the huge pile came not the slightest sound. carried along by the eager wave of men we were swept into the right hand entrance, opening into a great bare vaulted room, the cellar of the East wing, from which issued a maze of corridors and stair-cases. A number of huge packing cases stood about, and upon these the Red Guards -and soldiers fell furiously, battering them open with the butts of their rifles, and pulling out carpets, curtains, linen, porcelain plates, glassware.

One man went strutting around with a bronze clock perched on his shoulder; another found a plume of ostrich feathers, which he stuck in his hat. The looting was just beginning when somebody cried, ‘Comrades! Don't touch anything! Don't take anything! This is the property of the People!’ Immediately twenty voices were crying, ‘Stop! Put everything back! Don't take anything! Property of the People!’ Many hands dragged the spoilers down. Damask and tapestry were snatched from the arms of those who had them; two men took away the bronze clock. Roughly and hastily the things were crammed back in their cases, and self-appointed sentinels stood guard. It was all utterly spontaneous. Through corridors and up stair-cases the cry could be heard growing fainter and fainter in the distance, ‘Revolutionary discipline! Property of the People.’

We crossed back over to the left entrance, in the West wing. There order was also being established. ‘Clear the Palace!’ bawled a Red Guard, sticking his head through an inner door. ‘Come, comrades, let's show that we're not thieves and bandits. Everybody out of the Palace except, the Commissars, until we get sentries posted.’

Two Red Guards, a soldier and an officer, stood with revolvers in their hands. Another soldier sat at a table behind them, with pen and paper. Shouts of ‘All out! All out!’ were heard far and near within, and the Army began to pour through the door, jostling, expostulating, arguing. As each man appeared he was seized by the self-appointed committee, who went through his pockets and looked under his coat. Everything that was plainly not his property was taken away, the man at the table noted it on his paper, and it was carried into a little room.

...Yunkers came out, in bunches of three or four. The committee seized upon them with an excess of zeal, accompanying the search with remarks like, ‘Ah, Provocators! Kornilovists! Counter-revolutionists! Murderers of the People!’ But there was no violence done, although the yunkers were terrified. They too had their pockets full of small plunder. It waa carefully noted down by the scribe, and piled in the little room. The yunkers were disarmed. ‘Now, will you take up arms against the People any more?’ demanded clamouring voices.

"No," answered the yunkers, one by one. Whereupon they were allowed to go free.

...In the meanwhile unrebuked we walked into the Palace. There was still a great deal of coming and going, of exploring new - found apartments in the vast edifice, of searching for hidden garrisons of yunkers which did not exist. We went upstairs and wandered through room after room.

..The old Palace servants in their blue and red and gold uniforms stood nervously about, from force of habit repeating, ‘You can't go in there, harm! It is forbidden.’ We penetrated at length to the gold and malachite chamber with crimson brocade hangings where the Ministers had been in session all that day and night and where the shveitzari had betrayed them to the Red Guards. The long table covered with green baize was just as they had left it, under arrest. Before each empty seat was pen and ink and paper; the papers were scribbled over with beginnings of plans of action, rough drafts of proclamations and manifestos. Most of these were scratched out, as their futility became evident, and the rest of the sheet covered with absent-minded geometrical designs, as the writers sat despondently listening while Minister after Minister proposed chimerical schemes. I took one of these scribbled pages, in the h-and writing of Konovalov, which read, ‘The Provisional Government appeals to all classes to support the Provisional Government.’

...we didn't notice a change in the attitude of the soldiers and Red Guards around us. As we strolled from room to room a small group followed us, until by the time we reached the great picture gallery where we had spent the afternoon with the yunkers, about a hundred men surged in after us. One giant of a soldier stood in our path, his face dark with sullen suspicion.

.‘Who are you?’ he growled. ‘What are you doing here?’ The others massed slowly around, staring and beginning to mutter. ‘Provocatori’I heard somebody say. ‘'Looters !’ I produced our passes from the Military Revolutionary Committee. The soldier took them gingerly, turned them upside down and looked at them without comprehension. Evidently he could not read. He handed them back and spat on the floor. ‘Bumagi! Papers!’ said he with contempt. The mass slowly began to close in, like wild cattle around a cowpuncher on foot. Over their heads I caught sight of an officer, looking helpless, and shouted to him. He made for us shouldering his way through.

'I'm the Commissar,' he said to me. ‘Who are you? What is it?’ The others held back, waiting. I produced the papers.

'You are foreigners?' he rapidly asked in French. 'It is very dangerous.' Then he turned to the mob, holding up our documents. ‘Comrades!’ he cried. 'These people are foreign comrades from America. They have come here to be able to tell their countrymen about the bravery and the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army!'

'How do you know that?' replied the big soldier.'‘I tell you they are provocators! They say they came here to observe the revolutionary discipline of the proletarian army, but they have been wandering freely through the Palace, and how do we know they haven't got their pockets full of loot?'

'Pravilno!' snarled the others, pressing forward.

'Comrades! Comrades!' appealed the officer, sweat standing out on his forehead. ‘I am Commissar of the Military Revolutionary Committee. Do you trust me? Well, I tell you that these passes are signed with the same names that are signed to my pass!’

He led us down through the Palace and out through a door opening onto the Neva quay, before which stood the usual committee going through pockets. ‘You have narrowly escaped,’ he kept muttering, wiping his face.

References:
   This eyewitness account appears in: Reed, John, Ten Days That Shook the World (1935); Salisbury, Harrison, Black night, white snow: Russia's Revolutions 1905-1917 (1977).

How To Cite This Article:
"The Bolsheviks Storm the Winter Palace, 1917" EyeWitness to History, www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2006).
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/bolshevik.htm

Maybe you prefer photos, though you can't see their party cards, this is identified as Bolshevik volunteers

Maybe you can interpret this


What is the point of a long quote from American communist John Reed.  Anyone familiar with the Bolsheviks know they forcefully seized power in Russia.  I think the whole point that was being addressed was that those Bolsheviks were mostly Russian.  Period.  And the Whites were Russian.  But the Russian Reds beat the Russian Whites.  The point was Berdyaev pointing to the origins of Russian communism in the Russian messianic spirit, the nihilism propagated by revolutionary Russias in the 19th century, etc.  Are you claiming Bolshevism wasn't supported by any Russians?  You mentioned Bela Kun, and Bavaria, but the point there was that Communism did not succeed.  It only succeeded internally in Russia.  Russia's President Putin lays flowers at the grave of Denikin at the same time he posts official Russian stamps honoring the Soviet Secret Policemen of the 1930s like Vsevolod Balitsky who was head of the N.K.V.D. in Ukraine during the Holodomor.  So the current regime in Russia seems to be laying claim both to Red and White Russia in some kind of amalgam.

The point however is that Bolshevism came to power in Russia proper and stayed there and spread at gunpoint from Russia.  Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

But it is certainly not about comprehension. It's just that our dear brother Isa Al-Misry, being frustrated because of what he, an oddball, a half-Norvegian and half-Arab, and a former Evangelical Protestant, percieves as some kind of assault on his "tue Orthodoxy" from what he thinks are "Greek Philetists" (and other Philetists), pulls his half-witted "knowledge" of "history" (and just what THAT is...?), to "prove" that all "nationalism" is BAAAAAAD. 
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« Reply #96 on: August 26, 2010, 11:06:24 PM »


But it is certainly not about comprehension. It's just that our dear brother Isa Al-Misry, being frustrated because of what he, an oddball, a half-Norvegian and half-Arab, and a former Evangelical Protestant, percieves as some kind of assault on his "tue Orthodoxy" from what he thinks are "Greek Philetists" (and other Philetists), pulls his half-witted "knowledge" of "history" (and just what THAT is...?), to "prove" that all "nationalism" is BAAAAAAD. 

O.K.  Thanks Heorhij.  Funnily that would explain the multitudinous and disjointed attacks on Ukrainians (i.e. well Russians want this part of Ukraine,  Romanians this part, Khrushchev - the only thing in common to any of this being the poster's negativity to things Ukrainian).  I almost thought he actually had something personal to explain his behavior or his anti-Ukrainian comments.
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« Reply #97 on: August 26, 2010, 11:33:30 PM »

What is the point of a long quote from American communist John Reed. 

Somebody didn't like the illustration of history, and some like to tweek it
You evidently have not studied the severe difficulties the Bolsheviks in Moscow had in installing communism in Ukraine.  
You evidently ignore the severe difficulties the Bolsheviks had in installing communism in Moscow. It is called "the Russian Civil War."
Communism was forced onto Ukraine at the ends of bayonets from the Red Army attacking the Ukrainian National Republic from Russia in 1918-21.  
This is the Winter Palace. What's those pointy things they are carrying?
I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

so I thought an eyewitness account was in order.  You can dispute or discount it, but while doing so, do provide documentation of your "view."


Anyone familiar with the Bolsheviks know they forcefully seized power in Russia. 

Then why your contrast "Communism was forced onto Ukraine at the ends of bayonets from the Red Army attacking the Ukrainian National Republic from Russia in 1918-21...the severe difficulties the Bolsheviks in Moscow had in installing communism in Ukraine"?


I think the whole point that was being addressed was that those Bolsheviks were mostly Russian.  Period.


Most of the Empire was Russian. Period. The Czar was Russian, Kerensky was Russian, Patriarch St. Tikhon was Russian. Lenin was a Russian, Stalin a Georgian, Trotsky a Jew, as was Kamenev. Dzerzhinsky was a Polish szlachta.

And the Whites were Russian.
Not all of them.


But the Russian Reds beat the Russian Whites.


What did the non-Russian Reds do to the Russian Whites?

The point was Berdyaev pointing to the origins of Russian communism in the Russian messianic spirit, the nihilism propagated by revolutionary Russias in the 19th century, etc.


Did I miss your answer to the question?
Did Berdyaev make a distinction between Great and Little Russians? Didn't he become a Marxist in Kiev?
Berdyev was kicked out on the Philosopher's ship in 1922. He was born in Kiev in 1874, went to Kiev University in 1894.
So did he distinguish between Great and Little Russians?

Are you claiming Bolshevism wasn't supported by any Russians?
 
No, I'm documenting not all Russians supported Bolshevism, and not all Bolsheviks were Russian, for instance, not all Ukrainians were against communism, and some Bolsheviks were Ukrainian.

Btw, since it hasn't been explained (and Fr. V. demonstrates he hasn't a clue on this) and will be coming up, who is a Ukrainian?

You mentioned Bela Kun, and Bavaria, but the point there was that Communism did not succeed.

Bela Kun was crushed by the invasion and occupation by the Kingdom of Romania, and Bavaria was crushed (and brought back into union with Germany) by Berlin sending in the Freikorps returning from WWI.


It only succeeded internally in Russia.
 

And Belorussia, the Transcaucasian Federation, Odessa, the Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Republic, the Far Eastern Republc, the Soviet Republic of Ukraine, etc..

Russia's President Putin lays flowers at the grave of Denikin at the same time he posts official Russian stamps honoring the Soviet Secret Policemen of the 1930s like Vsevolod Balitsky who was head of the N.K.V.D. in Ukraine during the Holodomor.  So the current regime in Russia seems to be laying claim both to Red and White Russia in some kind of amalgam.

Sort of like Ukraine disclaiming its Soviet past, but claiming its Soviet borders.

The point however is that Bolshevism came to power in Russia proper and stayed there and spread at gunpoint from Russia.  Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
Like most simplistic ultranationalist rewrites of history, it is not difficult to comprehend at all.
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« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2010, 12:17:24 AM »


Most of the Empire was Russian. Period. The Czar was Russian, Kerensky was Russian, Patriarch St. Tikhon was Russian. Lenin was a Russian, Stalin a Georgian, Trotsky a Jew, as was Kamenev. Dzerzhinsky was a Polish szlachta.


Btw, since it hasn't been explained (and Fr. V. demonstrates he hasn't a clue on this) and will be coming up, who is a Ukrainian?

Firstly, the bulk of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union after the Revolution was Russian.  The Bolshevik Revolution would HAVE succeeded without any Ukrainians.  Period.  The Bolshevik Revolution could NOT have succeeded without substantial Russian support, which was absent in Ukraine.  If you cannot comprehend this, why bother?

Hetman Skoropadsky, who you pictured erroneously as a White, as you claim, again demonstrating your lack of knowledge of the history of the region was allied with the Germans and actually fostered a Ukrainian cultural awakening, despite some in his cabinet.  Indeed, if Skoropadsky was a White, why did he not join the White Russians in the immigration then?  Bet you don't know.  Because he founded the Ukrainian Hetmanivtsi Organization dedicated to Ukrainian independence, which was anathema to the Whites who believed in a One, Undivided Russian Empire.  In the emigration, the Hetman attended Ukrainian Orthodox, not Russian Orthodox, Church services.  A White would not attend a Ukrainian Orthodox service.  So see you have learned something new from me.

As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

By the way, do you condemn the Russian Federation issuing stamps honoring long-dead N.K.V.D. agents with the bloods of millions on their hands under Putin?  It would seem that this is something you as an Orthodox Christian would surely condemn, or are you fine with Putin's exaltation of the Secret Police, Soviet and Russian?  I notice you have absolutely nothing to say about Russian extremist nationalism.  What do you have to say about the extreme Russian nationalist group NASHI supported by the Russian government, or as some have called it the Putinjugend?  Is it an acceptable nationalism to you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashi_%28youth_movement%29

It seems rather than concretely dealing with the Real concerns of millions of Ukrainian Orthodox on this thread, all you resort to is attacking things Ukrainian without even analyzing Russian extremist nationalism, which by any count, is the bigger Force.
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« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2010, 03:24:35 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?
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« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2010, 07:50:53 AM »

I will, once I get back, Lord willing.  For one thing, Filoret was defrocked by the Holy Synod of Moscow, and all Orthodox Churches recognize it.
Provide me with the statements of recognition then.

In the meantime, I'll ask again, what is the basis of your statement "On what basis would you compare Ukraine to France or Australia?" How is Moscow's jurisdiction in France or in Australia like Moscow's jurisdiction over Ukraine?
Moscow has a jurisdiction IN Ukraine (the UOC-MP) but not OVER it. That is quite a difference.

(Actually, I am starting to wonder which jurisdiction ethnical Romanians in northern Bukovina are in...)
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« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2010, 08:26:04 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?
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« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2010, 08:36:57 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?

Any sources that Patriarch Bartholomew receives money from Moscow Patriarchate?
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« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2010, 08:42:40 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?

Any sources that Patriarch Bartholomew receives money from Moscow Patriarchate?

The original post?
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« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2010, 08:42:54 AM »

I will, once I get back, Lord willing.  For one thing, Filoret was defrocked by the Holy Synod of Moscow, and all Orthodox Churches recognize it.
Provide me with the statements of recognition then.

I remember the fact of concelebration of the UOC clergy and Hierarchs from the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Moscow, Georgia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, Poland, Albania, Czech lands and Slovakia and OCA.
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« Reply #105 on: August 27, 2010, 08:44:20 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?

Any sources that Patriarch Bartholomew receives money from Moscow Patriarchate?

The original post?

I didn't know Patriarch Bartholomew is a Patriarch since 17th century.
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« Reply #106 on: August 27, 2010, 09:12:25 AM »

Don't you remember who did Patriarch Bartholomew during his visits to Ukraine shared the Chalice with?

With the one who has him on payroll?

Any sources that Patriarch Bartholomew receives money from Moscow Patriarchate?

The original post?

I didn't know Patriarch Bartholomew is a Patriarch since 17th century.

In the original post, Fr. P. Vintsukevych alludes that HAH takes money from Moscow. And I don't have a good reason to not trust Father P.V. because he is an "insider," unlike us.
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« Reply #107 on: August 27, 2010, 09:38:29 AM »

As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

Pan Subtelny has some interesting things to say, but I would first like to hear Heorhe and Gorazd's opinion of his work first.

For that matter, I'd like to their, and your definition of a "Ukrainian" (I'm assuming that Gorazd is Ukrainian with a Moravian name, if not, I'd like him to so state with his definition).

(as to your other question, is Charlemagne German? Is Philip II Spanish? Was Napolean Italian?)
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« Reply #108 on: August 27, 2010, 09:44:57 AM »

"Gorazd" is because of Saint Gorazd (in the avatar), whom I admire very much. I am not Ukrainian - from Germany, with some Czech ancestry, but with close ties to Ukraine. I feel somewhat able to comment on the situation because I am in Ukraine regularly.
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« Reply #109 on: August 27, 2010, 09:49:18 AM »

"Gorazd" is because of Saint Gorazd (in the avatar), whom I admire very much. I am not Ukrainian - from Germany, with some Czech ancestry, but with close ties to Ukraine. I feel somewhat able to comment on the situation because I am in Ukraine regularly.

As long as Heorhij and IvanMazepa don't object, you can still give your definition.
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« Reply #110 on: August 27, 2010, 09:52:10 AM »

As long as Heorhij and IvanMazepa don't object, you can still give your definition.

Do you know the duck test? "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

So we could say that someone who speaks Ukrainian, practises Ukrainian culture, loves Ukraine and is willing to defend Ukraine should be considered Ukrainian.
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« Reply #111 on: August 27, 2010, 10:00:18 AM »


In the original post, Fr. P. Vintsukevych alludes that HAH takes money from Moscow. And I don't have a good reason to not trust Father P.V. because he is an "insider," unlike us.

I don't know.  The name sounds Jewish  Smiley
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« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2010, 10:15:20 AM »


Do you know the duck test? "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

So we could say that someone who speaks Ukrainian, practises Ukrainian culture, loves Ukraine and is willing to defend Ukraine should be considered Ukrainian.

I think that is a very reasonable definition.  In my opinion (worthless as that may be) the real problem stems from somebody drawing an imaginary line around a piece a ground and calling it Ukraine when a very large portion of people living within that boundary are not Ukrainian.  I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian.  A nation is not made up of its dirt, but of its people.  Unfortunately, the failure to recognize this has cost countless gallons of blood to be spilt over the years.  Thanks be to God that the Urainians and Russians in "Ukraine" are fighting a war of words and not yet a war of blood (at least not on a large scale).  I believe that is worthy of respect, and continued prayer.
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« Reply #113 on: August 27, 2010, 10:19:42 AM »


Do you know the duck test? "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

So we could say that someone who speaks Ukrainian, practises Ukrainian culture, loves Ukraine and is willing to defend Ukraine should be considered Ukrainian.

I think that is a very reasonable definition.  In my opinion (worthless as that may be) the real problem stems from somebody drawing an imaginary line around a piece a ground and calling it Ukraine when a very large portion of people living within that boundary are not Ukrainian.  I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian.  A nation is not made up of its dirt, but of its people.  Unfortunately, the failure to recognize this has cost countless gallons of blood to be spilt over the years.  Thanks be to God that the Urainians and Russians in "Ukraine" are fighting a war of words and not yet a war of blood (at least not on a large scale).  I believe that is worthy of respect, and continued prayer.
Stop interjecting reason. Tongue
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« Reply #114 on: August 27, 2010, 10:24:43 AM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?
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« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2010, 11:20:25 AM »

Look, guys, whatever the definition of Ukrainian might be (and I agree, some nationalists define Ukrainian in a way that does not suit people with no nationalist feelings), it is besides the point here. Again, the open letter of an Orthodox priest, apparently an older, retired man who used to be the Provost of a large Orthodox seminary (i.e. an "insider") raises a huge issue. This issue, essentially, is: several milllion Orthodox in Ukraine are deprived of the Church because of a stubborn desire of the Patriarch of Moscow to have ONLY one Orthodox jurisdiction in Ukraine, this jurisdiction being NOT really "autonomous" and - most importantly - void of the Ukrainian language and culture. This is a deliberate policy that has a very long tradition, and it will not change. So, what shall we do? "Re-educate" those "bad" nationalists, explaining to them that if they continue to be what they are (i.e. passionate Ukrainian patriots, people who love their Ukrainian language, culture, history...), then they are not Orthodox? Or maybe there is another solution? I really do not know, that's why I am seeking your reasonable and friendly advice.
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« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2010, 11:50:41 AM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

Good question.  I know a Ukrainian here (Chicago) who went back to marry a girl from around Lviv, although I take it his family is further East.  He is in submission to the Vatican, but just barely.  He staunchly supports the use of Slavonic, as he is a Philo-/Pan-slavist, besides a traditionalist.  He speaks only Ukrainian at home, as does his children. He is also a Russophile, although he goes to, and supports, independent Ukraine.  It would seem your figures tell that he isn't the only one.
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« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2010, 11:53:37 AM »

I take it his family is further East.  He is in submission to the Vatican, but just barely. 

"Further east" than the area around Lviv, people are not really Greek Catholic...
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« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2010, 12:03:04 PM »

I take it his family is further East.  He is in submission to the Vatican, but just barely. 

"Further east" than the area around Lviv, people are not really Greek Catholic...

Yes, they migrated it seems, I just don't remember when.
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« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2010, 12:04:58 PM »

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

That is the problem in any civil dispute.  If one of us finds an acceptable solution for this kind of a problem, I am sure that we would have earned a Nobel Peace Prize.
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« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2010, 12:25:41 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church. I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian, pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition. Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.
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« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2010, 12:43:23 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church. I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian, pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition. Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.

Well...I strongly believe that each nation should have its own autocephalous church. Period. I have explained my reasoning elsewhere but suffice it to say that I agree that it is a scandal that we have such church "imperialism" still persisting in this day and age. I would include the Church of Macedonia in the list of Orthodox Churches that are maltreated, along with the putative Church of Ukraine. FYI, I am a member of the OCA and a naturalized citizen of Bulgaro-Macedonian descent.
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« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2010, 12:50:06 PM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

Makes me wonder where Taras Bul'ba (and hence Gogol) would fall according to his last words:

Quote
When Taras Bulba recovered from the blow, and glanced towards the Dniester, the Cossacks were already in the skiffs and rowing away. Balls were showered upon them from above but did not reach them. And the old hetman's eyes sparkled with joy.

"Farewell, comrades!" he shouted to them from above; "remember me, and come hither again next spring and make merry in the same fashion! What! cursed Lyakhs, have ye caught me? Think ye there is anything in the world that a Cossack fears? Wait; the time will come when ye shall learn what the orthodox Russian faith is! Already the people scent it far and near. A czar shall arise from Russian soil, and there shall not be a power in the world which shall not submit to him!" But fire had already risen from the fagots; it lapped his feet, and the flame spread to the tree.... But can any fire, flames, or power be found on earth which are capable of overpowering Russian strength?
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« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2010, 01:00:27 PM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

Makes me wonder where Taras Bul'ba (and hence Gogol) would fall according to his last words:

Quote
When Taras Bulba recovered from the blow, and glanced towards the Dniester, the Cossacks were already in the skiffs and rowing away. Balls were showered upon them from above but did not reach them. And the old hetman's eyes sparkled with joy.

"Farewell, comrades!" he shouted to them from above; "remember me, and come hither again next spring and make merry in the same fashion! What! cursed Lyakhs, have ye caught me? Think ye there is anything in the world that a Cossack fears? Wait; the time will come when ye shall learn what the orthodox Russian faith is! Already the people scent it far and near. A czar shall arise from Russian soil, and there shall not be a power in the world which shall not submit to him!" But fire had already risen from the fagots; it lapped his feet, and the flame spread to the tree.... But can any fire, flames, or power be found on earth which are capable of overpowering Russian strength?

Bad English translation. Gogol's original, Русская зeмля, applies to the present-day Russia just like it applies to the Moon or Mars.
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« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2010, 01:20:12 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church.

You perceive wrong.

I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian,

You perceive wrong.

pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Is that why you are reading wrong?

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople


Going under Constantinople would only make it uncanonical, and make the EP suseptible to deposition.

Did someone recommomend Russian dominance? I missed that.

Oh, and in answer to your question, the same reason why their is no Arab Patriarchate of Alexandria nor Antioch.

or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Why would they be any different from any other believer in the Vatican's ultrmontanist claims?

The faxt that you find this odd indicates that you confess the creed of one, heretical, schismatic and phyletist Ukrainian church, not the В єдину, Святу, Соборну і Апостольську Церкву of the Ukrainian Orthodox.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church
You have a Protestant church of the eastern rite in Ukrainian
Im curious as to members thoughts on this..
You should change the name to the Ukrainian Protestant Church.

with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition.


Does the U"O"CKP have an ordained office of prophet?

Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.
Because we agree with the message that phyletism is heretical, although many of us find fault with the messenger?
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« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2010, 01:39:36 PM »

I know that this may not meet with much agreement from the Nationalists, but I would almost think that a smaller Ukraine actually populated by a vast majority of Ukrainians would be preferable to a larger land mass called Ukraine where a large number of people consider themselves Russian. 

Actually, only 17,3% of all people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian (according to the 2001 census), but Russian parties receive about 50% of the vote. So there are many people who consider themselves Ukrainians, and still support Russian politics. What should be made of them?

Makes me wonder where Taras Bul'ba (and hence Gogol) would fall according to his last words:

Quote
When Taras Bulba recovered from the blow, and glanced towards the Dniester, the Cossacks were already in the skiffs and rowing away. Balls were showered upon them from above but did not reach them. And the old hetman's eyes sparkled with joy.

"Farewell, comrades!" he shouted to them from above; "remember me, and come hither again next spring and make merry in the same fashion! What! cursed Lyakhs, have ye caught me? Think ye there is anything in the world that a Cossack fears? Wait; the time will come when ye shall learn what the orthodox Russian faith is! Already the people scent it far and near. A czar shall arise from Russian soil, and there shall not be a power in the world which shall not submit to him!" But fire had already risen from the fagots; it lapped his feet, and the flame spread to the tree.... But can any fire, flames, or power be found on earth which are capable of overpowering Russian strength?

Bad English translation. Gogol's original, Русская зeмля, applies to the present-day Russia just like it applies to the Moon or Mars.
I stuck that in google.ru, and the first thing that came up was this:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BB%D1%8F
with this map

The English link has this map


Is that Rostov, Suzdal, Vladimir, Moscow and the site of the future St. Petersburg I see in the red? And although it is red, it's not on the Red Planet (or the moon for that matter). If fact a lot of the red area is in what my map of earth shows as Russia, while the red area doesn't cover much of what my map says is in Ukraine.

Btw, the English of the Russian map

is in the article on the Principality of Vladimir-Suzdal, the precursor of the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the cradle of Great Russian, and successor to the Grand Duchy of the Rus'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir-Suzdal
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« Reply #126 on: August 27, 2010, 02:36:01 PM »

Btw, a point I might come to later:

Would there be Ukraine without the submission of the Western part of it to the Vatican?  St. Petru Movilă (Petro Mogila if you prefer), Tara Shevchenko, Nikolai Gogol and Nikolai Kostomarov show there would be.

Would there be a Ukraine without Orthodoxy? No.

Would Ukraine have remained Orthodox without Moscow?
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« Reply #127 on: August 27, 2010, 02:40:12 PM »

I stuck that in google.ru

Don't.

P.S. Isa, may I ask, you, what do you do for living?

I mean, if you teach history... maybe, for your students' sanity sake, switch to teaching them something else - Norwegian, Arabic? You strike me as an awful, colossal diletant in history. No wonder you believe sources that end with .ru like a baby.
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« Reply #128 on: August 27, 2010, 03:11:11 PM »

I stuck that in google.ru

Don't.

P.S. Isa, may I ask, you, what do you do for living?

I mean, if you teach history... maybe, for your students' sanity sake, switch to teaching them something else - Norwegian, Arabic? You strike me as an awful, colossal diletant in history. No wonder you believe sources that end with .ru like a baby.

Then why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

btw, my Oxford Russian Dictionary says for Русская "1. fem. of -ий" (I don't think "2. russkaya (Russian folk dance)" is pertinent. Do you?). Русский says "adj. Russian."   For зeмля "1. earth, (dry) land. 2. land, soil (fig.) 3. earth, soil 4. (in Germany [which we aren't]) Land, state; (in Austria [which Ukraine isn't, thanks to the Czar, Stalin and Khrushchev) province." But I already knew that.  Somehow, I seem to know you knew that too. Do let us know if you have something else. You can go in google books and find all sorts of interesting things.

The same thing came up  in the google.com.ua.  Did Gogol write Руська земля?

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?
As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

Pan Subtelny has some interesting things to say, but I would first like to hear Heorhe and Gorazd's opinion of his work first.
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« Reply #129 on: August 27, 2010, 03:31:49 PM »

I stuck that in google.ru

Don't.

P.S. Isa, may I ask, you, what do you do for living?

I mean, if you teach history... maybe, for your students' sanity sake, switch to teaching them something else - Norwegian, Arabic? You strike me as an awful, colossal diletant in history. No wonder you believe sources that end with .ru like a baby.

Then why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

btw, my Oxford Russian Dictionary says for Русская "1. fem. of -ий" (I don't think "2. russkaya (Russian folk dance)" is pertinent. Do you?). Русский says "adj. Russian."   For зeмля "1. earth, (dry) land. 2. land, soil (fig.) 3. earth, soil 4. (in Germany [which we aren't]) Land, state; (in Austria [which Ukraine isn't, thanks to the Czar, Stalin and Khrushchev) province." But I already knew that.  Somehow, I seem to know you knew that too. Do let us know if you have something else. You can go in google books and find all sorts of interesting things.

The same thing came up  in the google.com.ua.  Did Gogol write Руська земля?

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?
As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

Pan Subtelny has some interesting things to say, but I would first like to hear Heorhe and Gorazd's opinion of his work first.

Isa, I don't know how you find so much time in the day to engage in anti-Ukrainian propaganda.  I don't have the time to respond to every attack so why don't you CLEARLY explain whether you have read Subtelny's History and what points in his work do you object to (preferably chapter and page).  I'll have to go back to work while you engage in your anti-Ukrainian mission but point out exactly what is wrong with the Standard History of Ukraine used by most Universities in the Western world and in Ukraine about Ukrainian History.  You obviously know more than professors who have doctorates in Ukrainian history.  I can also address Professor Magocsi's History of Ukraine and if you object to anything he writes please provide chapter and page.
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« Reply #130 on: August 27, 2010, 03:52:00 PM »

I stuck that in google.ru

Don't.

P.S. Isa, may I ask, you, what do you do for living?

I mean, if you teach history... maybe, for your students' sanity sake, switch to teaching them something else - Norwegian, Arabic? You strike me as an awful, colossal diletant in history. No wonder you believe sources that end with .ru like a baby.

Then why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

btw, my Oxford Russian Dictionary says for Русская "1. fem. of -ий" (I don't think "2. russkaya (Russian folk dance)" is pertinent. Do you?). Русский says "adj. Russian."   For зeмля "1. earth, (dry) land. 2. land, soil (fig.) 3. earth, soil 4. (in Germany [which we aren't]) Land, state; (in Austria [which Ukraine isn't, thanks to the Czar, Stalin and Khrushchev) province." But I already knew that.  Somehow, I seem to know you knew that too. Do let us know if you have something else. You can go in google books and find all sorts of interesting things.

The same thing came up  in the google.com.ua.  Did Gogol write Руська земля?

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?
As for your severe confusion as to "who is a Ukrainian"  (ISA, do you have the same problems in figuring out who is Italian, Spanish, German?) then by all means, a good start towards your education would begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/Ukraine-History-Orest-Subtelny/dp/0802083900

Do yourself a favor and save yourself from confusion.  Give it a read.

Pan Subtelny has some interesting things to say, but I would first like to hear Heorhe and Gorazd's opinion of his work first.

Isa, I don't know how you find so much time in the day to engage in anti-Ukrainian propaganda.

I don't engage in anti-Ukrainian propoganda ever.  Somebody has a persecusion complex.

Quote
  I don't have the time to respond to every attack so why don't you CLEARLY explain whether you have read Subtelny's History and what points in his work do you object to (preferably chapter and page). 

You assUme that I object to anything. No, I haven't read the whole thing, but I have no particular objection to it.  I'd like to know if your comrades Heorhij, Gorazd and cossack feel the same way.  That way we do not waste time with posts and responses like the last between Heorhij and me.

Quote
I'll have to go back to work while you engage in your anti-Ukrainian mission
Roll Eyes
Quote
but point out exactly what is wrong with the Standard History of Ukraine used by most Universities in the Western world and in Ukraine about Ukrainian History.  You obviously know more than professors who have doctorates in Ukrainian history.  I can also address Professor Magocsi's History of Ukraine and if you object to anything he writes please provide chapter and page.
Nothing particular (I have read all of his history and other works IIRC and cited them here before).  I haven't posted anything about something being wrong with the Standard History of Ukraine, unless you are claiming Fr. V. as the Standard History of Ukraine.  I neither have a doctorate in Ukrainian history (my doctorate studies were in Islamic History) nor claimed to know more than professors that do. Unless you, cossack or Heorhij have doctorates in Ukrainian history. Do you?
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« Reply #131 on: August 27, 2010, 04:15:55 PM »

why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

Why is what he (an insider, a former seminary provost) writes is "trash,' and what your Russian and Soviet sources say is the Gospel Truth?

Did Gogol write Руська земля?

He was writing in Russian, but his mentality was Ukrainian. So, when he wrote "Русская зeмля," he most certainly meant the same thing his heroes, Ukrainian Cossacs, meant under Русь, Руська зeмля - THEIR land, not the High Principality of Moscow, about which they had only very foggy idea if any. NO ONE in those years called Moscow, or Muscovy lands, "Russia" or "Russian lands," including the Muscovites themselves. Rus'ka zemlya meant the land where Rusy, Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. present-day Ukrainians) lived.

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?

Orest Subtel'ny is a well-know historian, a professional (definitely not pro-Kremlin propagandist).
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« Reply #132 on: August 27, 2010, 04:24:24 PM »

why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

Why is what he (an insider, a former seminary provost) writes is "trash,' and what your Russian and Soviet sources say is the Gospel Truth?

Did Gogol write Руська земля?

He was writing in Russian, but his mentality was Ukrainian. So, when he wrote "Русская зeмля," he most certainly meant the same thing his heroes, Ukrainian Cossacs, meant under Русь, Руська зeмля - THEIR land, not the High Principality of Moscow, about which they had only very foggy idea if any. NO ONE in those years called Moscow, or Muscovy lands, "Russia" or "Russian lands," including the Muscovites themselves. Rus'ka zemlya meant the land where Rusy, Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. present-day Ukrainians) lived.

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?

Orest Subtel'ny is a well-know historian, a professional (definitely not pro-Kremlin propagandist).


Any of the current historians such as Prof. Orest Subtely from York University, Prof. Frank Sysyn at the University of Toronto, Prof. John Paul Himka at the University of Alberta are al  good.  All of them are graduates of American Universities.  Prof. Robert Magosci's history and Subtelny's history are both used as standard textbook.  Both Magosci & Sysn have doctorates from Harvard University.
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« Reply #133 on: August 27, 2010, 04:41:26 PM »

Ialmisry,

I am still waiting for your condemnation of Russian nationalism in the MP.
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« Reply #134 on: August 27, 2010, 05:05:56 PM »

why don't you post something besides the trash of Fr. V. to support your opinions?

Why is what he (an insider, a former seminary provost) writes is "trash,' and what your Russian and Soviet sources say is the Gospel Truth?

Was he inside the Constantinople, Kiev or the Kremlin in 1686, to get the Gospel Truth on the alleged bribing of the EP +DIONYSIOS for Ukraine? That is what you said you wanted to discuss from Fr. V's "insider information," no?

Besides the admittedly "heroic" poster of the storming of the winter palace (which sees that as something glorious, but then I wasn't posting it for that. Rather to show that neither the Czar nor Kerensky just handed the keys over.  The Bolsheviks had Bayonets), I don't recall citing a Soviet source here. Maybe I'm forgetting. As for Russian, I think I've only quoted Gogol. Am I forgetting something?

Oh, yeah, the interview with Father Sidor, the leader of those Carpathorussian you say don't exist:they're Ukrainian, they just don't know/admit that. funny, that's exactly what the Muscovites tell me about you all. (I don't pay attention to that either).


Did Gogol write Руська земля?

He was writing in Russian, but his mentality was Ukrainian. So, when he wrote "Русская зeмля," he most certainly meant the same thing his heroes, Ukrainian Cossacs, meant under Русь, Руська зeмля - THEIR land, not the High Principality of Moscow, about which they had only very foggy idea if any. NO ONE in those years called Moscow, or Muscovy lands, "Russia" or "Russian lands," including the Muscovites themselves. Rus'ka zemlya meant the land where Rusy, Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. present-day Ukrainians) lived.

Look at the map: they lived in Moscow too.

As for Rus'

Quote
7) Wire Kopeck marked "ЮР"
OBVERSE: an image of a horseman carrying a spear, mint engraver's mark "ЮР" under the horse going on foot, circular dotted line.
REVERSE: the 5-line legend means: "Czar and Grand Prince Ivan of Entire Rus" ("Царь и Великий Князь Иван Всея Руси" the exact old cyrillic inscription - "ЦРЬИ / ВЕЛIKIИ / КНSЬIВА / НЬВСЕIA / РУСIИ").
Weight: 0.68 gram
Mint: Novgorod
http://metaldetectingworld.com/cache_hunting_p29.shtml

It is marked "ЮР" I would say for "Yurij"-St. George. That's him in the middle here.


Yeah, I know. "Russian sources." But from "those years.

Btw, what do YOU think of IvanMazepa's authority?

Orest Subtel'ny is a well-know historian, a professional (definitely not pro-Kremlin propagandist).
Well dobre. Another tak vote.
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« Reply #135 on: August 27, 2010, 05:36:31 PM »

^^^ It matters not what Ivan the Terrible called himself. Understand, what high nobles, princes, tsars said about themselves and their land does not reflect what PEOPLE called themselves and their land. Beginning from that monk Philotheus, and his patron, Tsar Vasiliy "The One In The Dark" (he was blind), the court of the High Principality of Muscovy began to pursue the goal of becoming the Third Rome. So, they stole the name "Rus'", because they wanted to look like legitimate successors, heirs to great princes of Rus' (Ihor, Svyatoslav, Volodymyr, etc.) In fact the people they ruled had nothing to do with Rus', Rusy, Rusyny. They were (and are!) a different people...
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 05:39:01 PM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #136 on: August 27, 2010, 05:37:56 PM »

But again, we deviated from the main issue. What should we do with these darned Ukrainian "nationalists" who happen to be Orthodox? Re-educate them? Explain to them that in fact they are Russians? Smiley
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« Reply #137 on: August 27, 2010, 07:04:06 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church. I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian, pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition. Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.


As a bystander I can see why MP doesn’t give autocephaly to Ukraine. Moscow obviously wants to preserve Russian identity of people in that country as they historically are Russians. One nation and one church as opposed to ukrainization of Russians and falsification of history which would follow with UOCKP autocephaly.
It is very clear that Ukrainian nationalism started with Galician Greco Catholics who once they betrayed Orthodox faith and church also felt disconnected with Russian nation. So they developed their own identity which was fuelled by Austro Hungarian propaganda at the end of nineteen century just to divide Russian people there.
Ukrainian nationalism by itself wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t represent and stand for Russo phobia and pro western mind and ideas which are foreign to Russian people.
As for UOCKP that church has no grace from God as all other schismatic churches. Holy Spirit distances Himself from schismatics as well as from heretics.
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« Reply #138 on: August 27, 2010, 07:14:36 PM »

Dalibor,

Just because Russia says that Kosovo is Serbian, you say such things?


Two facts:

1. The Ukrainian language is closer to Slovak than to Russian. Just listen yourself and compare.

2. I know several Russians living in Ukraine, and they admit that Ukrainians are a separate people, even though both are Slavs.
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« Reply #139 on: August 27, 2010, 07:14:50 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church. I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian, pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition. Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.


As a bystander I can see why MP doesn’t give autocephaly to Ukraine. Moscow obviously wants to preserve Russian identity of people in that country as they historically are Russians. One nation and one church as opposed to ukrainization of Russians and falsification of history which would follow with UOCKP autocephaly.
It is very clear that Ukrainian nationalism started with Galician Greco Catholics who once they betrayed Orthodox faith and church also felt disconnected with Russian nation. So they developed their own identity which was fuelled by Austro Hungarian propaganda at the end of nineteen century just to divide Russian people there.
Ukrainian nationalism by itself wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t represent and stand for Russo phobia and pro western mind and ideas which are foreign to Russian people.
As for UOCKP that church has no grace from God as all other schismatic churches. Holy Spirit distances Himself from schismatics as well as from heretics.

The UOC was under the EP and annexed by the MP.  It shoul;d get autocephaly from it's mother church the EP.
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« Reply #140 on: August 27, 2010, 07:39:19 PM »

As a bystander I can see why MP doesn’t give autocephaly to Ukraine. Moscow obviously wants to preserve Russian identity of people in that country as they historically are Russians. One nation and one church as opposed to ukrainization of Russians and falsification of history which would follow with UOCKP autocephaly.
It is very clear that Ukrainian nationalism started with Galician Greco Catholics who once they betrayed Orthodox faith and church also felt disconnected with Russian nation. So they developed their own identity which was fuelled by Austro Hungarian propaganda at the end of nineteen century just to divide Russian people there.
Ukrainian nationalism by itself wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t represent and stand for Russo phobia and pro western mind and ideas which are foreign to Russian people.
As for UOCKP that church has no grace from God as all other schismatic churches. Holy Spirit distances Himself from schismatics as well as from heretics.


Well...you certainly are more than a bystander now that, as an outsider, you have taken a position on the Ukrainian nation, and with that an erroneous one.  When the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was still frowning somewhat on Ukrainian populism at the beginning of the 19th Century, modern Ukrainian nationalism was already beginning to come to the fore with the poets Taras Shevchenko and others in Eastern (that is Orthodox) Ukraine.  Kharkiv's University became one of the progenitors of modern Ukrainian patriotism and Kharkiv is in Eastern Ukraine.

Why do people who are not Ukrainian and have not the least elementary understanding of Ukrainian history feel free to jump in on the subject of Ukrainian nationalism of church history?

Tell me Dalibor, what works exactly have you studied of Ukrainian history or Church history?

Isa asked me somewhere whether I had a doctorate in Ukrainian history -  well no, but I did study under one of the professors already mentioned in this thread who is an author of the History of Ukraine.  I have also critiqued a master's thesis in class of a to-be doctoral candidate in Ukrainian history who now teaches Ukrainian history at a university in North America.  I am not going to mention names on a public forum but the absolute unfamiliarity of some on this thread who jump in on Ukrainian history knowing so little is kind of astounding.  After undergrad, I went elsewhere than history but that is neither here nor there.

So tell me Dalibor, again, on what historical works exactly do you base your, ahem, opinion that Ukrainian nationalism merely came from Ukrainian Greek-Catholics.  SOURCES PLEASE!
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« Reply #141 on: August 27, 2010, 07:39:29 PM »

^^^ It matters not what Ivan the Terrible called himself. Understand, what high nobles, princes, tsars
, starshini, hetmani,
said about themselves and their land does not reflect what PEOPLE called themselves and their land.
He was writing in Russian, but his mentality was Ukrainian. So, when he wrote "Русская зeмля," he most certainly meant the same thing his heroes, Ukrainian Cossacs, meant under Русь, Руська зeмля - THEIR land, not the High Principality of Moscow, about which they had only very foggy idea if any. NO ONE in those years called Moscow, or Muscovy lands, "Russia" or "Russian lands," including the Muscovites themselves. Rus'ka zemlya meant the land where Rusy, Rusychy, Rusyny (i.e. present-day Ukrainians) lived.

Beginning from that monk Philotheus, and his patron, Tsar Vasiliy "The One In The Dark" (he was blind), the court of the High Principality of Muscovy began to pursue the goal of becoming the Third Rome. So, they stole the name "Rus'", because they wanted to look like legitimate successors,

Stole? It was theirs, as legitimate heirs, Rurikid successors of their ancestor, St Vladimir/Volodymyr.


 heirs to great princes of Rus' (Ihor, Svyatoslav, Volodymyr, etc.)
Yuriy I Dolgorukiy, Andrey Bogolyubsky, Michael, Vsevolod the Big Nest, Yaroslav II,

 In fact the people they ruled had nothing to do with Rus', Rusy, Rusyny. They were (and are!) a different people...
They were the same people. If they are a different people, many of them don't know it.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 07:40:55 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #142 on: August 27, 2010, 07:45:29 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church. I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian, pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition. Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.


As a bystander I can see why MP doesn’t give autocephaly to Ukraine. Moscow obviously wants to preserve Russian identity of people in that country as they historically are Russians. One nation and one church as opposed to ukrainization of Russians and falsification of history which would follow with UOCKP autocephaly.
It is very clear that Ukrainian nationalism started with Galician Greco Catholics who once they betrayed Orthodox faith and church also felt disconnected with Russian nation. So they developed their own identity which was fuelled by Austro Hungarian propaganda at the end of nineteen century just to divide Russian people there.
Ukrainian nationalism by itself wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t represent and stand for Russo phobia and pro western mind and ideas which are foreign to Russian people.
As for UOCKP that church has no grace from God as all other schismatic churches. Holy Spirit distances Himself from schismatics as well as from heretics.

The UOC was under the EP and annexed by the MP.  It shoul;d get autocephaly from it's mother church the EP.
The MP is the Mother Church, as the Patriarch of Moscow is the successor of St. Michael of Kiev, and why St. Peter's staff is given to the enthroned Patriarch by the Metropolitan of Kiev. The EP formed the Metropolia of Kiev uncanonically after it apostacized and bowed to the Vatican.  Or does Filaret wish to be the successor of Cardinal Isadore?
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« Reply #143 on: August 27, 2010, 07:50:11 PM »

Dalibor,

Just because Russia says that Kosovo is Serbian, you say such things?


Yes it is.  Now we just need to get all of the Albanians out of there.

As to the rest, I think that I agree with you.  Ukrainians are not Russians, they are more like Poles and I think that the Russians need to let them go.  I don't think that there is a question that there needs to be an independent Ukraine, or an independent Ukrainian Church.  The question, I believe, is over boundary.  Also, the question is one of legitimacy.  The ROCOR, which I was proudly part of for most of my time in the Orthodox Church, was not considered part of "World Orthodoxy" either.  You know what?  We didn't care.  We worshiped and kept the Faith as best we could regardless of what the World thought of us.  I see no reason that the Ukrainians should not do likewise.  If you really believe that Nationalism is more important than being part of the Body of Christ, or if you believe that you remain such even after you sever yourself from the other Churches, go for it.  If your authority comes from God, who cares who recognizes you.  When nobody recognizes you, perhaps you should reconsider.

BTW - even before the ROCOR reunited with the MP, it was recognized, and its Bishops co-celebrated with Serbia and Jerusalem.  Does anyone recognize the breakaway Ukrainian Orthodox Church?  I am not asking this rhetorically because I don't know.  I am asking to find out.  If the other local canonical Churches recognize you, forget about Russian and move on.

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« Reply #144 on: August 27, 2010, 07:55:35 PM »

Ialmisry,

I am still waiting for your condemnation of Russian nationalism in the MP.

Yes, so am I.  For that matter I am still waiting to hear him condemn Russia's President Putin for putting a positive spin on the Soviet Secret Police killers of the 1930s or to condemn what the Economist magazine's Edward Lukas bemoaned about the Russian neo-fascism of groups like Nashi.

What is the matter Isa.  Your silence only leads me to believe you approve of Russian extremist nationalism since you are too scared to answer.  Here's a good litmus test: do you condemn the vice-head of Russia's Duma, Vladimir Zhirinovsky?  Do a google search on him if you don't know him and tell me whether you think him a good Russian.  Not that difficult.  Are you afraid to condemn Russian imperialism or chauvinism?  Be honest.
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« Reply #145 on: August 27, 2010, 08:50:24 PM »


Constantinople wasn't bought off in 1589 nor 1687

Well, as IreneOlinyk mentioned on this thread a good professor of Ukrainian history is Frank Sysyn.  Sysyn has studied the time frame above particularly well.  He writes in "The Formation of Modern Ukrainian Religious Culture" published in 1990 that:

"Political events rapidly eroded the unity and autonomy of the Kyivan metropolitan see in the second half of the seventeenth century.  In 1685-86, during the election of Metropolitan Gedeon Chetvertyns'kyi, the Muscovite government arranged, by means of pressure and bribes, the transfer of the see from the jurisdiction of the patriarch of Constantinople to that of the patriarch of Moscow."

A commemorative book edited by Zinkevych and Sorokowski in 1988 in North America to mark "A Thousand Years of Christianity in Ukraine", lists the following under the entries for the years 1685-86:

"....the Muscovite Tsar sends a message to the Patriarch of Constantinople Jacobus I, along with 40 sables and 200 red (golden) coins requesting the Patriarch to transfer the Kievan Metropolitanate to the Moscow Patriarchate.  The Moscow Patriarch Yoakim send his representative  cantor....Learning the purpose of the Muscovite delegation, the Patriarch of Jerusalem Dositheus II sends them an angry letter, in which he points out the illegality of their request and accuses them of trying to acquire a Metropolitanate by means of bribes of money and gifts.  After prolonged negotiations, the new Patriarch of Constantinople Dionysius IV, does not agree to hand over the Kievan Metropolitanate.  Then Moscow's representative appeals to the Turkish Vizier....the Vizier orders the Patriarch Dionysus IV to hand over the Kievan Metropolitanate to Moscow...
The Eastern clergy call a Patriarchal Synod for the end of they year, during which they deprive Dionysius IV of his office and cancel all his decrees connected with the transfer of the Kievan Metropolitanate to the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow.


(emphasis above mine)

Indeed, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe the Hierarchy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada (EP) recognizes de jure the 1686 transfer of jurisdiction to Moscow.  So the statement in the OP is not simply much ado about nothing.  There is history behind what is written there.  Bottomline, in my humble opinion, the Moscow Patriarch's refusal to see an Autocephalous Church in Ukraine or a Patriarchate is more political and secular than spiritual.  The MP and EP have already come to blows over Estonia with the MP not listening to its elder Constantinople.

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« Reply #146 on: August 27, 2010, 09:17:17 PM »

I get the perception here that most of the authors aside from Hehorhji and IvanMazepa do not believe that Ukraine as an independent country, should have an independent church. I feel there is a lot of anti-Ukrainian, pro-russian sentiment. When I read that people believe that the holodomor was not an act of genocide by the Soviet Communists and Stalin to eradicate Ukrainian nationalism, it brings me to near tears.

Why is it Bulagaria, Serbia, Georgia, etc can have independent churches but Ukraine needs to either accept Russian dominance or go under Constantinople or in the case of Uki Catholics, under Rome.

Ukraine has an independent orthodox church with over 14 million believers and growing every year. In the end the UOCKP will achieve cannonical recognition. Some people may not be fans of Patriarch Filaret and well those people will not change their mind. Filaret is 81 and well 10 years from now there will probably be a new patriarch. No matter who he is, the Russians will besmearch his name and the church. Its sad that this forum is so staunchly anti-Ukrainian.


As a bystander I can see why MP doesn’t give autocephaly to Ukraine. Moscow obviously wants to preserve Russian identity of people in that country as they historically are Russians. One nation and one church as opposed to ukrainization of Russians and falsification of history

how about falsification of the present? Tens of millions aren't Russian, and they are not going to be Russified.


which would follow with UOCKP autocephaly.
Not if it is doen right.

It is very clear that Ukrainian nationalism started with Galician Greco Catholics who once they betrayed Orthodox faith and church also felt disconnected with Russian nation. So they developed their own identity which was fuelled by Austro Hungarian propaganda at the end of nineteen century just to divide Russian people there.

Nationalism seperate from what became Russian was well under way with Roman the Great of Galicia (1199-1205) and built on by his son Daniel, King of Rus'/Russia Galicia-Volhynia, who founded Lviv, naming it after his son Lev. They all remained Faithful to the Orthodox Faith and Church. Whether that was Rus'/Greater Russias, Rusyn/Ruthenian/Carpathorussian or Ukrianian is another question.

Ukrainian nationalism by itself wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t represent and stand for Russo phobia and pro western mind and ideas which are foreign to Russian people.

Fear/hatred of the West is nor required by Russian nationalism. If that was required, the Russian Empire couldn't have a Russian nationalism.

As for UOCKP that church has no grace from God as all other schismatic churches. Holy Spirit distances Himself from schismatics as well as from heretics.
I'm going to skip most of this for now, although I will note that picking a defrocked hiearch as your primate is not a good move to endear you to the Almighty.
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« Reply #147 on: August 27, 2010, 10:07:25 PM »


Constantinople wasn't bought off in 1589 nor 1687

Well, as IreneOlinyk mentioned on this thread a good professor of Ukrainian history is Frank Sysyn.  Sysyn has studied the time frame above particularly well.  He writes in "The Formation of Modern Ukrainian Religious Culture" published in 1990 that:

"Political events rapidly eroded the unity and autonomy of the Kyivan metropolitan see in the second half of the seventeenth century.  In 1685-86, during the election of Metropolitan Gedeon Chetvertyns'kyi, the Muscovite government arranged, by means of pressure and bribes, the transfer of the see from the jurisdiction of the patriarch of Constantinople to that of the patriarch of Moscow."

A commemorative book edited by Zinkevych and Sorokowski in 1988 in North America to mark "A Thousand Years of Christianity in Ukraine", lists the following under the entries for the years 1685-86:

"....the Muscovite Tsar

Do they mean the Czar of All the Russias?

sends a message to the Patriarch of Constantinople Jacobus I, along with 40 sables and 200 red (golden) coins requesting the Patriarch to transfer the Kievan Metropolitanate to the Moscow Patriarchate.  The Moscow Patriarch Yoakim send his representative  cantor....Learning the purpose of the Muscovite delegation, the Patriarch of Jerusalem Dositheus II sends them an angry letter, in which he points out the illegality of their request and accuses them of trying to acquire a Metropolitanate by means of bribes of money and gifts.  After prolonged negotiations, the new Patriarch of Constantinople Dionysius IV, does not agree to hand over the Kievan Metropolitanate.  Then Moscow's representative appeals to the Turkish Vizier....the Vizier orders the Patriarch Dionysus IV to hand over the Kievan Metropolitanate to Moscow...
The Eastern clergy call a Patriarchal Synod for the end of they year, during which they deprive Dionysius IV of his office and cancel all his decrees connected with the transfer of the Kievan Metropolitanate to the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Moscow.


(emphasis above mine)

Indeed, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe the Hierarchy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada (EP) recognizes de jure the 1686 transfer of jurisdiction to Moscow.

And what the Ukrainian hiearchy in Canada under Constantinople has to say about Moscow's jurisdiction over Ukraine is determinative how?

So the statement in the OP is not simply much ado about nothing.  There is history behind what is written there.
A history indeed:
So, again, please, let's discuss just this for now:

"After the so-called “re-unification” (1654), the mighty barons of Muscovy were not satisfied that they had captured the secular power all over Ukraine. They needed the soul of the Ukrainian people. Where is this soul? Of course, in the Church. So, the government of the Tzar, and the Patriarch of Moscow – by that time, the Metropoly of Moscow had already morphed into “Patriarchy,” by the way, also due to the means that had been, well, questionable… - raised the issue of subjugating the Kyiv Metropoly to Moscow. In 1686, a delegation led by Nikita Alekseev went to Constantinople, with the goal to extract the endorsement of Eastern Prelates for the liquidation of the Kyiv ecclesiastical authonomy. The Patriarch of Constantinople, +DIONISIUS, was showered with rich gifts, and he gave in. In less than one year after this shameful deal, the Patriarch was convicted of simony and defrocked. Yet, the decision to get rid of the ecclesiastically autonomous Orthodox jurisdiction with the center in Kyiv stayed. Now, we ask you: was this decision an act that was in line with the Canon Law? Was it in line with any law? You won’t answer, of course. But you know, with what ease has the Daughter bought the right to be “known” as “Mother,” and also just what she did with her actual Mother – robbed her, humiliated her, deprived her of everything and is still keeping the Mother in outrageous captivity, spiritual slavery."

Your comments, thoughts?
An Anglican prelate at Constantinople in the days of EP +DIONYSIOS describes the status of the Eastern prelates on the eve of +DIONYSIOS' appearance on its throne:
[The patriarchs of Constantinople By Claude Delaval Cobham]
Quote
"The oppression which the Greeks lie under from the Turks, though very bad and dismal in itself, becomes more uneasy and troublesome by their own horrid Quarrels and Differences about the choice of a Patriarch: there being often times several Pretenders among the Metropolitans and Bishops, and they too making an interest, by large summs of mony, in the Vizir, or the other Bassa's, to attain their ends. He who by his mony and his friends has prevailed...will endeavour to reimburse himself and lay the burden and debt, which he has contracted, upon the Church, which must pay for all: while the rest, who envy his preferment...unite their interest and strength to get him displaced, by remonstrating against his injustice and ill management of affairs, and put up fresh petitions to the Turks, and bribe lustily to be heard. The Turks, glad of such an opportunity of gain, readily enough admit their Complaint, and put out and put in, as they see occasion When I reflect upon these Revolutions and Changes, I am filled at the same time with amazement and pity, and cannot but put up this hearty prayer to Almighty God...that He would be pleased to inspire the Grecian Bishops with sober and peaceable counsels.'" Smith, An Account of the Greek Church, pp. 80—83. Thomas Smith, B.D., Fellow of Magdalen College, Oxford, was chaplain to the English Embassy at Constantinople in the reign of Charles II. From the chapter in his book, out of which the above-quoted passages are taken, it appears that he left Constantinople to return to England in 1671 or 1672. He mentions the protection given by the Embassy to the deposed patriarch Methodius III in 1671.
http://books.google.com/books?id=fatgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA74&dq=Patriarchs+of+Constantinople+bribe&cd=1#v=onepage&q=Patriarchs%20of%20Constantinople%20bribe&f=false
From the EP's website, we see the following list of his predecessors and successor-including himself-for the period in question:
Quote
Methodius III 1668-1671
Parthenios IV (3rd time) 1671-1673
Dionysios IV (1st time)1671-1673
Gerasimos II 1673-1674
Parthenius IV (4th time) 1675-1676
Dionysios IV (2nd time) 1676-1679
Athanasius IV 1679James (1st time) 1679-1682
Dionysios IV (3rd time) 1682-1684
Parthenius IV (5th time) 1684-1685
James (2nd time) 1685-1686
Dionysios IV (4th time) 1686-1687
James (3rd time) 1687-1688
Callinicus II (1st time) 1688
Neophytos IV 1688-1689
Callinicus II (2nd time) 1689-1693
Dionysios IV (5th time) 1693-1694
Callinicus II (3rd time)1694-1702
http://www.patriarchate.org/patriarchate/patriarchs
+DIONYSIOS IV Muselimes, as can be see, had five reigns (high for any EP).  The EP website says that +DIONYSIOS "was imprisioned twice by the Turks and purchased his freedeom by ransom (1679 and 1688),"
http://www.ec-patr.org/list/index.php?lang=gr&id=236
the last being the tenure that Fr. V. is so worried about.  I don't know about the allegation that "the Patriarch was convicted of simony and defrocked," as him being taken for ransom wasn't the first time, and he went on once again to rule as Patriarch in the Phanar again afterwards, after six years and his predecessor becoming his successor.  In the introduction to the same work quoted above, Fortescue gives the background of how EP Dionysios came and went from the Ecumenical Throne 5x:
Quote
The history of the patriarchs, however, during the reign of Mohammed II., so far as it is known, shows that if the patriarchate fell into an evil plight, this was due not so much to Turkish bad faith as to the prevalence of ' emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, envyings' among the clergy and people. ' Fortunati nimium, sua si bona nossent' is the conclusion one comes to after considering, on the one hand, the ample privileges bestowed upon the patriarchate by the Turkish conqueror, and on the other, the restless, unsettled state of the Church of Constantinople both under him and under his successors, down to the present day, a clear token whereof is the great number of patriarchal abdications, very few of which have been purely voluntary.

The depositions were not always effected by arbitrary intervention on the part of the secular power. More than once a patriarch was deposed by a synod of metropolitans, which also passed sentence of exile upon him. The execution of the sentence would, of course, be left to the secular authorities.

No doubt much of the disquiet and disorder in the Church of Constantinople during the seventeenth century was due to Jesuit intrigues. But the efforts of the Jesuits would have been comparatively harmless had they not been assisted by the factious spirit rampant among the Greeks. The worst enemies of the Church's peace were to be found among those who were of her own household. With regard to the Turkish Government, we may be permitted to doubt whether it stood in need of any encouragement to perpetrate acts of oppressive intervention, but one cannot be surprised that Sultans and Vizirs, finding themselves appealed to first by one and then by another Christian faction, should have laid hold of the opportunities gratuitously supplied them. If the Christians showed themselves ready to buy the support of the secular power, it was not incumbent upon the secular power, alien in race and religion, to refuse to do business.  Phranza speaks of the bestowal of the patriarchal crozier as performed by Mohammed II. in imitation of his Christian predecessors. The ceremony of confirmation or investiture, as described by Phranza, appears not to have been retained in practice for very long. The escort of honour from the Porte to the patriarchal residence may have been continued, but the ceremony of the crozier appears in a document of the sixteenth century as an ecclesiastical and no longer a political one. Moreover, it very soon became customary for the patriarchs to take presents to the Porte, instead of receiving them there. The first four patriarchs, says Manuel Malaxos, were elected without making any present to the Sultan, but after the appointment of Mark Xylocaravis, a junta of immigrants from Trebizond offered the Sultan a thousand florins to obtain his support of their opposition to the patriarch, whom they purposed to remove in favour of a fellow-countryman of theirs, one Symeon, a monk. According to Malaxos, ' the Sultan laughed, and then pondered a long while, considering the enviousness and stupidity of the Romans, and their ungodly ways.' Then he confirmed an assertion made by them to the effect that Mark had promised a thousand florins for the confirmation of his election, though the patriarch had neither promised nor given a copper. The Sultan, however, saw an opening to the establishment of such payments as a regular custom. He took the money offered by Mark's enemies and bade them go and elect as patriarch whomsoever they would. A charge of simony was then brought against Mark, who was put on his trial before a synod, condemned, deposed and anathematized. Symeon was then elected and consecrated, but before very long was deposed by order of the Sultan. Once again money had been talking. The Sultan's stepmother, who appears to have been a Christian, was desirous to promote a friend of hers, the metropolitan of Philippopolis, to honour, and at the same time put an end to the scandalous agitations of the Church caused by the strife between the factions of Symeon and Mark. She therefore brought the Sultan two thousand florins in a silver dish and told him that there was a monk who was her friend, and that she wanted to have him made patriarch. The result of the proposal was an imperial order for the deposition of Symeon, who retired to a monastery. Mark was voted by the synod assembled in the capital, to which he had appealed for revision of his sentence, to the archbishopric of Achrida. Dionysius, the protdge' of the Sultan's stepmother, occupied the throne for eight years, and then, in disgust at a false charge of apostasy, though he clearly refuted it, abdicated and retired to a monastery near Cavalla in Macedonia. The synod, in whose presence he had refuted the charge of apostasy, recalled Symeon. It was necessary, however, to make sure of the Sultan's approval, and to this end a deputation presented itself at the Sublime Porte, bringing a thousand florins, and so carrying out in act the charge laid in word against Mark Xylocaravis. But the Defterdar rejected their petition and the proffered douceur. There was an entry in the imperial accounts, he said, showing that the proper amount of the fee was two thousand florins. This, of course, referred to the transaction between the Sultan and his stepmother. Of this matter the members of the synod possibly had no knowledge at the time, but whether they had or not made no difference. There was nothing for it but to sponge up another thousand florins, ' which being done, says Malaxos,' the Defterdar ceased from troubling.'

Thus an evil precedent was set, and henceforth every patriarch was expected to pay a fee for the imperial confirmation of his election.  To this burden another was added by the reckless ambition of a Servian monk, Raphael by name, who procured the fnal dethronement of Symeon by the conversion ofo the investiture fee of 2000 florins into an annual 'kharaj' or triubte, the amount of the investiture-fee being now fixed at 500 florins.  It was not to be expected, however, that these amounts should never be exceeded.  By the time of Jeremiah II's first election to the patriarchate, viz. A.D. 1572, the investiture fee (peskesion as Malaxos calls it) was 2000 florins, while the annual 'kharaj' had risen to 4100.  In A.D. 1672 as we learn from Paul Ricaut the English Consul at Smyrna, the debts of the patriarchate amounted to 350,000 piastres, equal to more than L40,000 at the present day; 'the interest of which increasing daily, and rigously extorted by the Power of the most covetous and considerable Turkish officers, who lend or supply the Money, is the reason and occasion that the Patriarch so often summons all his Archbishops and Bishops to appear at Constantinople, that so they may consult and agree on an expedient to ease in some measure the present Burden and Pressure of their Debts; the payment of which is often the occasion of new Demands: For the Turks, finding this Fountain the fresher and more plenifully flowing for being drained, continually suck from this Stream, which is to them more sweet, for being the Blood of the Poor, and the life of Christians.'  It was, after all, not so much on the dignitaries and authorities of the Orthodox Church, as upon the parish priests and the poor among the people generally, that the fiscal burdens pressed most heavily.  The most helpless had to suffer most.  What help, indeed, could they expect when their chief shephers became robbers?

With ironical respect the Orthodox laity, under the Turkish regime, spoke of their bishops as 'despota'— despots. The powers enjoyed by the episcopal order, whose members were made use of by the temporal power as agents of police, were so considerable as to make even an ordinary bishopric an appointment to be coveted—still more a metropolitan see, and most of all the patriarchate. Even apart from the financial opportunities, in the use of which a patriarch or metropolitan could rely on secular assistance, the dignity and honour of ' chief seats in the synagogue' must always have had considerable attraction for the Greeks, who, even after the Turkish Conquest, esteemed themselves the first of nations. Add to these conditions and circumstances the spirit of jealousy which has been, and still is, the bane of the race—the spirit which gives a Greek army so many generals and so few soldiers—and it is not hard to understand why changes in the occupancy of the patriarchate of Constantinople have been so numerous and frequent.   The patriarch and the bishops purchased their dignities, and repaid themselves by selling ecclesiastical rank and privileges; the priests purchased holy orders, and sold licenses to marry. The laity paid for marriages, divorces, baptisms, pardons, and dispensations of many kinds to their bishops. The extent to which patriarchs and bishops interfered in family disputes and questions of property is proved by contemporary documents.'— Finlay, History of Greece, v. p. 156, cf. p. 150

The Turkish conquest of Constantinople (1453), strangely enough, added still more to the power of its patriarchs. True to their unchanging attitude the Mohammedans accepted each religious communion as a civil body. The Rayahs were grouped according to their Churches. The greatest of these bodies was, and is, the Orthodox Church, with the name ' Roman nation' (rum millet), strange survival of the dead empire. And the recognized civil head of this Roman nation is the oecumenical patriarch. So he now has civil jurisdiction over all orthodox Rayahs in the Turkisk empire, over the other patriarchs and their subjects and over the autocephalous Cypriotes as well as over the faithful of his own patriarchate. No orthodox Christian can approach the Porte except through his court at the Phanar. And the Phanar continually tries to use this civil jurisdiction for ecclesiastical purposes.

There is also more about Patriarch Dositheus (much more) but I'll post that seperately.

So yes the Ukrainians, the Russians, the Greeks, heck the Arabs, think every event in history revolves around them and interpret accordingly, but that doesn't make it so.  I know it is attractive to dismiss the transfer back to Moscow as the result of bribes. But the record would seem to indicate it was business as usual, how EP Dionysius, Pat. Dositheus, and all the rest of those clery that Zinkevych and Sorokowski talk of got their positions, so where are you going to stop canceling all of their actions, including taking the Metropolitanate of Kiev from Moscow in 1589?

Bottomline, in my humble opinion, the Moscow Patriarch's refusal to see an Autocephalous Church in Ukraine or a Patriarchate is more political and secular than spiritual.


How do you think that "elder Constantinople" got its position? Is Fr. V's "argument" spiritual? Not political nor secular? Moscow has no spiritual attachment to the seat of St. Vladimir, "Mother of Russian Cities?"

The MP and EP have already come to blows over Estonia with the MP not listening to its elder Constantinople.
There comes a time when Mother has to tell grandma to butt out of raising the daughter.

Although the EP found a nice Greek from the Congo who doesn't speak Estonia to stick in Tallin, the Estonian speaking, Estonia bred, baptized, chrismated and consecrated MP had a fine Estonian speaking,  Estonia bred, baptized, chrismated and consecrated Metropolitan in Estonia.  The EP breaking canons wasn't welcome, except by the non-Orthodox political and secular establishment of Estonia.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 10:14:58 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #148 on: August 27, 2010, 10:15:42 PM »

Quote
Quote from: Dalibor on Today at 07:04:06 PM
It is very clear that Ukrainian nationalism started with Galician Greco Catholics who once they betrayed Orthodox faith and church also felt disconnected with Russian nation. So they developed their own identity which was fuelled by Austro Hungarian propaganda at the end of nineteen century just to divide Russian people there.

Try and borrow any of the history books on Ukraine mentioned by the American scholars already and check your facts please.

Taras Shevchenko, the national poet of Ukraine was born in Central Ukraine not Halychyna or Galicia as you call it. 
The Austrians only took over Halychyna in the 18th century.  The Church in Halychyna at the time was Orthodox.  The Austrians closed down the last Orthodox monastery in Halychyna with troops in 1785 and all the monks crossed the border to move into Orthodox monasteries in Bukovyna.
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« Reply #149 on: August 27, 2010, 10:30:36 PM »

As a bystander I can see why MP doesn’t give autocephaly to Ukraine. Moscow obviously wants to preserve Russian identity of people in that country as they historically are Russians. One nation and one church as opposed to ukrainization of Russians and falsification of history which would follow with UOCKP autocephaly.
It is very clear that Ukrainian nationalism started with Galician Greco Catholics who once they betrayed Orthodox faith and church also felt disconnected with Russian nation. So they developed their own identity which was fuelled by Austro Hungarian propaganda at the end of nineteen century just to divide Russian people there.
Ukrainian nationalism by itself wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t represent and stand for Russo phobia and pro western mind and ideas which are foreign to Russian people.
As for UOCKP that church has no grace from God as all other schismatic churches. Holy Spirit distances Himself from schismatics as well as from heretics.


Well...you certainly are more than a bystander now that, as an outsider, you have taken a position on the Ukrainian nation, and with that an erroneous one.  When the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was still frowning somewhat on Ukrainian populism at the beginning of the 19th Century, modern Ukrainian nationalism was already beginning to come to the fore with the poets Taras Shevchenko and others in Eastern (that is Orthodox) Ukraine.  Kharkiv's University became one of the progenitors of modern Ukrainian patriotism and Kharkiv is in Eastern Ukraine.

Why do people who are not Ukrainian and have not the least elementary understanding of Ukrainian history feel free to jump in on the subject of Ukrainian nationalism of church history?

Tell me Dalibor, what works exactly have you studied of Ukrainian history or Church history?

Isa asked me somewhere whether I had a doctorate in Ukrainian history -  well no, but I did study under one of the professors already mentioned in this thread who is an author of the History of Ukraine.  I have also critiqued a master's thesis in class of a to-be doctoral candidate in Ukrainian history who now teaches Ukrainian history at a university in North America.  I am not going to mention names on a public forum but the absolute unfamiliarity of some on this thread who jump in on Ukrainian history knowing so little is kind of astounding.  After undergrad, I went elsewhere than history but that is neither here nor there.

So tell me Dalibor, again, on what historical works exactly do you base your, ahem, opinion that Ukrainian nationalism merely came from Ukrainian Greek-Catholics.  SOURCES PLEASE!

You are confusing regional patriotism with national identity. If every region or oblast in Russian Federation develops national identity from regional identity how many new nations would there be? So you have your own dialect of Russian language and your own culture, so what? I come from Serbian Krajina which is now part of Croatia and it was similarly to Ukraine a borderland to Ottoman Empire. We have our own dialect of Serbian language, our own cultural identity yet we call ourselves Serbs. Regional identity is there to enrich us not to divide us.
No one is forbidding you to be Ukrainian and nationalist but if I was Russian I would fight you tooth and nail to stop your ukrainization of my people who still have Russian national identity with Ukrainstvo as regional identity.
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« Reply #150 on: August 27, 2010, 10:53:40 PM »

So you have your own dialect of Russian language and your own culture, so what? I come from Serbian Krajina which is now part of Croatia and it was similarly to Ukraine a borderland to Ottoman Empire. We have our own dialect of Serbian language, our own cultural identity yet we call ourselves Serbs. Regional identity is there to enrich us not to divide us.
No one is forbidding you to be Ukrainian and nationalist but if I was Russian I would fight you tooth and nail to stop your ukrainization of my people who still have Russian national identity with Ukrainstvo as regional identity.

Fighting tooth and nail, nice Christian sentiment.  Where to start?  Ukrainian is a separate language; not a dialect.  There is an Eastern Slavic group consisting of three languages:  Ukrainian, Russian, and Belarusan.  All linguists here agree.  Your understanding of Ukrainian is ridiculous.  Plop a Russian from Moscow into a Ukrainian conversation in the Rada and they will barely comprehend what is being spoken about.  Read Hrushevsky's multivolume History of Ukraine in English.

Is it really that difficult, as Orest has suggested, to pick up a book by Subtelny or Magocsi and learn about Ukraine.  For some it evidently is.  I asked you for sources to back up your claim on Ukrainian nationalism.  You haven't read any books obviously because you did not cite one.  I am still trying to find the source of so much anti-Ukrainian bigotry on here, but might as well give up.  Your allusions to "fighting [Ukrainians] tooth and nail" is actually quite frightening.  Let me get this straight, you are advocating on the internet for violence against Ukrainians by Russians?  By tooth and nail do you mean physical violence as was done in the Balkans recently?
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« Reply #151 on: August 27, 2010, 11:06:35 PM »

You know what.  I am sorry. This is my last post on this thread and Forum for that matter.  I regret actually attempting to join now.  I am thoroughly disheartened at the amount of anti-Ukrainian sentiment on here by other Orthodox (you Ukrainian have no language, no history, the Russians need this part of your country, Holodomor/Ukrainian genocide dimishment/denial).  I never truly expected such unChristian sentiments on a Forum after all dedicated to the Church built by Jesus Christ our Savior.  I don't blame the Forum masters.  Nicely, I have been allowed to post.  But the amount of believers on here in effect wishing Ukrainians ill-will just about finishes it for me.  This is what Christ taught us?  Thank you, good bye.

Slava Isusu Chrystu!

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« Reply #152 on: August 27, 2010, 11:44:02 PM »

As a bystander I can see why MP doesn’t give autocephaly to Ukraine. Moscow obviously wants to preserve Russian identity of people in that country as they historically are Russians. One nation and one church as opposed to ukrainization of Russians and falsification of history which would follow with UOCKP autocephaly.
It is very clear that Ukrainian nationalism started with Galician Greco Catholics who once they betrayed Orthodox faith and church also felt disconnected with Russian nation. So they developed their own identity which was fuelled by Austro Hungarian propaganda at the end of nineteen century just to divide Russian people there.
Ukrainian nationalism by itself wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t represent and stand for Russo phobia and pro western mind and ideas which are foreign to Russian people.
As for UOCKP that church has no grace from God as all other schismatic churches. Holy Spirit distances Himself from schismatics as well as from heretics.


Well...you certainly are more than a bystander now that, as an outsider, you have taken a position on the Ukrainian nation, and with that an erroneous one.  When the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was still frowning somewhat on Ukrainian populism at the beginning of the 19th Century, modern Ukrainian nationalism was already beginning to come to the fore with the poets Taras Shevchenko and others in Eastern (that is Orthodox) Ukraine.  Kharkiv's University became one of the progenitors of modern Ukrainian patriotism and Kharkiv is in Eastern Ukraine.

Why do people who are not Ukrainian and have not the least elementary understanding of Ukrainian history feel free to jump in on the subject of Ukrainian nationalism of church history?

Tell me Dalibor, what works exactly have you studied of Ukrainian history or Church history?

Isa asked me somewhere whether I had a doctorate in Ukrainian history -  well no, but I did study under one of the professors already mentioned in this thread who is an author of the History of Ukraine.  I have also critiqued a master's thesis in class of a to-be doctoral candidate in Ukrainian history who now teaches Ukrainian history at a university in North America.  I am not going to mention names on a public forum but the absolute unfamiliarity of some on this thread who jump in on Ukrainian history knowing so little is kind of astounding.  After undergrad, I went elsewhere than history but that is neither here nor there.

So tell me Dalibor, again, on what historical works exactly do you base your, ahem, opinion that Ukrainian nationalism merely came from Ukrainian Greek-Catholics.  SOURCES PLEASE!

You are confusing regional patriotism with national identity.

No, they are not.

If every region or oblast in Russian Federation develops national identity from regional identity how many new nations would there be?

Lots. And?

And Ukraine isn't in the Russian Federation.

So you have your own dialect of Russian language

It isn't a dialect of Russian anymore than Serbian is a dialect of Bulgarian.  It is it's own language, and has been for at least two centuries, with basis of distinction centuries before that.

and your own culture, so what? I come from Serbian Krajina which is now part of Croatia and it was similarly to Ukraine a borderland to Ottoman Empire.

Not quite. Kiev is like Ohrid, and Ukraine like Kosovo.

We have our own dialect of Serbian language, our own cultural identity yet we call ourselves Serbs. Regional identity is there to enrich us not to divide us.

Are you an adherent of Cardinal Strossmeyer's Jugoslavensto?


No one is forbidding you to be Ukrainian and nationalist but if I was Russian I would fight you tooth and nail to stop your ukrainization of my people who still have Russian national identity with Ukrainstvo as regional identity.
And those who have Ukrainstvo as the national identity?
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« Reply #153 on: August 27, 2010, 11:50:10 PM »

My opinion is in favor of the Ukrainians.
I also think MP should step out of Moldova.
MP was and is clearly imperialistic. Only people wearing rose-colored glasses don't see it:look at Georgia, look at Ukraine, look at Moldova and how all these churches that didn't receive  their Christianity from Moscow ended up there.
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« Reply #154 on: August 28, 2010, 12:41:08 AM »

You know what.  I am sorry. This is my last post on this thread and Forum for that matter.  I regret actually attempting to join now.  I am thoroughly disheartened at the amount of anti-Ukrainian sentiment on here by other Orthodox (you Ukrainian have no language, no history, the Russians need this part of your country, Holodomor/Ukrainian genocide dimishment/denial).  I never truly expected such unChristian sentiments on a Forum after all dedicated to the Church built by Jesus Christ our Savior.  I don't blame the Forum masters.  Nicely, I have been allowed to post.  But the amount of believers on here in effect wishing Ukrainians ill-will just about finishes it for me.  This is what Christ taught us?  Thank you, good bye.

Slava Isusu Chrystu!




You are twisting the problem again. The problem is not your right to exist as Ukrainian nation but your imposing of Ukrainian nationalism upon everyone else. Why should Moscow let your nationalists convince Russians they are actually Ukrainians? You are using Ukrainian regional identity of people there to convince them their regional identity is actually their national identity. All the while you are using anti Russian sentiment to achieve that and turning politically to the west and NATO. And you expect me to feel sorry about you.
UOCKP autocephaly will not happen until borders of Ukraine are redefined. ROC will certainly not abandon it’s people to Ukrainian nationalists while there are still those who  consider themselves to be part of Holy Rus.
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« Reply #155 on: August 28, 2010, 02:21:35 AM »

BTW - even before the ROCOR reunited with the MP, it was recognized, and its Bishops co-celebrated with Serbia and Jerusalem.  Does anyone recognize the breakaway Ukrainian Orthodox Church?  I am not asking this rhetorically because I don't know.  I am asking to find out.  If the other local canonical Churches recognize you, forget about Russian and move on.

Yes: Bulgarian Alternative Synod, Orthodox Church of Italy and Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #156 on: August 28, 2010, 07:51:03 AM »

My opinion is in favor of the Ukrainians.
I also think MP should step out of Moldova.
MP was and is clearly imperialistic. Only people wearing rose-colored glasses don't see it:look at Georgia, look at Ukraine, look at Moldova and how all these churches that didn't receive  their Christianity from Moscow ended up there.
They ended up under the Orthodox Czar and not hte Muslim Sultan and Shah.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #157 on: August 28, 2010, 08:42:40 AM »

As a bystander I can see why MP doesn’t give autocephaly to Ukraine. Moscow obviously wants to preserve Russian identity of people in that country as they historically are Russians. One nation and one church as opposed to ukrainization of Russians and falsification of history which would follow with UOCKP autocephaly.
It is very clear that Ukrainian nationalism started with Galician Greco Catholics who once they betrayed Orthodox faith and church also felt disconnected with Russian nation. So they developed their own identity which was fuelled by Austro Hungarian propaganda at the end of nineteen century just to divide Russian people there.
Ukrainian nationalism by itself wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t represent and stand for Russo phobia and pro western mind and ideas which are foreign to Russian people.
As for UOCKP that church has no grace from God as all other schismatic churches. Holy Spirit distances Himself from schismatics as well as from heretics.


Well...you certainly are more than a bystander now that, as an outsider, you have taken a position on the Ukrainian nation, and with that an erroneous one.  When the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was still frowning somewhat on Ukrainian populism at the beginning of the 19th Century, modern Ukrainian nationalism was already beginning to come to the fore with the poets Taras Shevchenko and others in Eastern (that is Orthodox) Ukraine.  Kharkiv's University became one of the progenitors of modern Ukrainian patriotism and Kharkiv is in Eastern Ukraine.

Why do people who are not Ukrainian and have not the least elementary understanding of Ukrainian history feel free to jump in on the subject of Ukrainian nationalism of church history?

Tell me Dalibor, what works exactly have you studied of Ukrainian history or Church history?

Isa asked me somewhere whether I had a doctorate in Ukrainian history -  well no, but I did study under one of the professors already mentioned in this thread who is an author of the History of Ukraine.  I have also critiqued a master's thesis in class of a to-be doctoral candidate in Ukrainian history who now teaches Ukrainian history at a university in North America.  I am not going to mention names on a public forum but the absolute unfamiliarity of some on this thread who jump in on Ukrainian history knowing so little is kind of astounding.  After undergrad, I went elsewhere than history but that is neither here nor there.

So tell me Dalibor, again, on what historical works exactly do you base your, ahem, opinion that Ukrainian nationalism merely came from Ukrainian Greek-Catholics.  SOURCES PLEASE!

It's not merely an erroneous position. I clearly see my enemy. Obeying Christ, I love this guy Dalibor, threat of physical harm removed from post  -PtA
 
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« Reply #158 on: August 28, 2010, 09:52:45 AM »


You are twisting the problem again. The problem is not your right to exist as Ukrainian nation but your imposing of Ukrainian nationalism upon everyone else. Why should Moscow let your nationalists convince Russians they are actually Ukrainians? You are using Ukrainian regional identity of people there to convince them their regional identity is actually their national identity. All the while you are using anti Russian sentiment to achieve that and turning politically to the west and NATO. And you expect me to feel sorry about you.
UOCKP autocephaly will not happen until borders of Ukraine are redefined. ROC will certainly not abandon it’s people to Ukrainian nationalists while there are still those who  consider themselves to be part of Holy Rus.


I think that there is a lot of truth to this.  The Ukrainian Church does not seemed fueled for a love of Christ as much as it does a hatred for Russia.  And Russia for its part has much to fear of an independent Ukraine.  Just as they ran toward the Poles and their Pope, they now want to be bedfellows with the Antichrist NATO.  While, perhaps, this should have no bearing on Church matters (render unto Caesar and all that), it certainly is not insignificant politically.  And given that the Slavs have a much closer cooperation between Church and State, it is easy to see why the political issues can meld into the spiritual.  In any case, I agree with Heorhij and some of the other Ukrainians that Russia has a tendency to be heavy handed in its dealings, both political and spiritual.  There is still a lot of mistrust of the MP within the ROCOR, and some wonder if the right decision was made with reunification.  So I really believe that the solution to the spiritual mess will probably not come until there is stabilization with the political mess.  I don't believe that Russia will trust a wishy washy Ukraine.  And I don't believe that Ukraine will trust Russia until there is a solid, independent Ukraine free of Russian interference.  The question remains as to who is "big" enough to make the first move toward peace.  In my view, the solution has to start with Russia. 
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« Reply #159 on: August 28, 2010, 10:14:17 AM »


You are twisting the problem again. The problem is not your right to exist as Ukrainian nation but your imposing of Ukrainian nationalism upon everyone else. Why should Moscow let your nationalists convince Russians they are actually Ukrainians? You are using Ukrainian regional identity of people there to convince them their regional identity is actually their national identity. All the while you are using anti Russian sentiment to achieve that and turning politically to the west and NATO. And you expect me to feel sorry about you.
UOCKP autocephaly will not happen until borders of Ukraine are redefined. ROC will certainly not abandon it’s people to Ukrainian nationalists while there are still those w