Author Topic: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?  (Read 1284 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline drealm

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • Mikraite
  • Faith: Mikraite
  • Jurisdiction: CA
Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« on: February 18, 2017, 07:28:52 PM »
I would like to know if Orthodox services in Ukraine are gender segregated. I've been told they used to be but I'm not sure if this is still the case. I may be traveling to Ukraine later this year and would like to visit some. If anyone knows of any Churches that are gender segregated, please let me know. I can travel to any city in Ukraine.

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,963
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2017, 11:30:16 PM »
I would like to know if Orthodox services in Ukraine are gender segregated. I've been told they used to be but I'm not sure if this is still the case. I may be traveling to Ukraine later this year and would like to visit some. If anyone knows of any Churches that are gender segregated, please let me know. I can travel to any city in Ukraine.

You can enter any church even if it's segregated, you just stand on the correct side depending on your gender. If you are woman, stand on the left and by default no one will correct you.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 11:30:44 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline seekeroftruth777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,077
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2017, 02:56:38 AM »
From what I understand most Slavic Orthodox churches have Gender seperation, as opposed to most Greek Orthodox Churches, from my limited experience.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,031
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 07:21:42 AM »
From what I understand most Slavic Orthodox churches have Gender seperation, as opposed to most Greek Orthodox Churches, from my limited experience.

In the USA for sure, but not in Greece.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,054
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2017, 07:42:44 AM »
You'll know when you get there.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,352
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2017, 12:34:18 PM »
From what I understand most Slavic Orthodox churches have Gender seperation, as opposed to most Greek Orthodox Churches, from my limited experience.

In the USA for sure, but not in Greece.

I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • "Mor has a huge ego"
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,022
  • We are all Gustavito!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2017, 02:19:11 PM »
I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad. 
How can you be so incarnationally constipated?

Don't forget about oc.net's women ;)

Can we have one thread where it doesn't devolve into how many people are hot for Mor?

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 34,717
  • Faith: God
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2017, 04:08:33 PM »
I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad.

I can think up possible reasons, but rather than presume... why do you feel that way?
"It is not as a child that I believe and confess Jesus Christ. My hosanna is born of a furnace of doubt." - Dostoevsky

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,352
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2017, 04:25:21 PM »

I could venture a guess, because I sort of feel the same as Mor.

...it is a sense of losing the "old ways", of perhaps acquiescing to modernism,...a fear that this leniency may grow to other aspects of the Faith...that we will accept and even promote things which are not of the Church.

Yes, this is a little thing...but, the carelessness to little things, can lead to carelessness to larger things.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,139
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2017, 04:28:50 PM »
Could be ... Not %100 sure

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,054
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2017, 02:23:58 AM »
Mommies need help.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • "Mor has a huge ego"
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,022
  • We are all Gustavito!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2017, 12:21:29 AM »
I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad.

I can think up possible reasons, but rather than presume... why do you feel that way?

Asteriktos,

I keep forgetting about this thread because of where it's located.  Apologies. 

I prefer the original arrangement ("gender segregated", to use the terms of the OP) for a few reasons which I'll throw out there in no particular order with the disclaimer that I haven't really thought about them so thoroughly as to write about them more cogently. 

One reason is simply "tradition".  Until very recently in Christian history, all Christians arranged themselves in this way during communal worship and did so from as far back as we have records.  This tradition transcended language, culture, geography, denominational boundaries, and just about any other dividing factor we can think of.  Because of the high regard we have for received traditions, this is enough of a reason to keep it. 

Segregated arrangements are less distracting.  No matter how much we try to focus on our own response to distractions rather than the things/people we find distracting, it is helpful to limit distractions as much as we can.  Most people will read that and think I'm talking about men gawking at women and vice versa, and that's part of it, but it's not by any means all of it (and anyway, if you, like my cousin once upon a time, are determined to gawk, you'll find a way to stand through a three hour Liturgy with your head peering over one or the other shoulder and not care that dozens of fathers-of-daughters can see you). 

I think the segregated arrangement is a sign that speaks more loudly than any sermon could of our creation in God's image and likeness as male and female, about the inherent goodness of sexual difference and the dignity of men and women as men and women, about how we approach God and are saved and sanctified precisely as men and women, etc., and it seems to me that we need to bear witness to that teaching today more than ever.   

Related to this, I think it's helpful in modeling the faith for future generations.  Young men and boys standing on the men's side of a church are surrounded by and observe older men while they pray and worship, are perhaps even guided by these men in how to conduct themselves during the services, etc.  They learn how to be Christian men by spending time with Christian men.  The same can be said for young women and girls worshiping in the midst of older women. 

It seems to me that women have an easier time forming community among themselves than men do, but it's important for men as well, and I think segregation helps both men and women do that.  A non-segregated church typically arranges itself along (nuclear) family lines first and then perhaps in proximity to other friends or friend-families.  In a segregated church, it's just a bunch of men on one side and a bunch of women on the other.  It's more difficult to see the relationships that have brought everyone to the same place (e.g., blood, marriage) and you are less limited by them, so you are free to forge new bonds.  The church becomes "family" more radically than in mixed congregations. 

When I wrote of my sadness at watching the transition from segregation to mixture in a particular Indian parish, it's primarily because the members who are most enthusiastic about the transition seem to view the things I've just described as outdated, irrelevant, obsolete, even perhaps bad.  They seem to want a more personalised parish experience into which their family unit can plug in as a family unit, preferring to maintain the independence of the nuclear family from the larger community.  They'd probably view the appeal to tradition as a form of antiquarianism, and while they probably accept the traditional teaching on creation and sex, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a hearty "Yes, but..." lurking beneath the surface.  Because this tradition has been lost even among many (most?) Orthodox in this country, it's easy to understand if our priests go along with their parishioners' request to implement mixed seating/standing and choose something else to fight for, but in doing so I think we will have lost something of great value.     

I'm not saying that segregation is a panacea.  Segregated parishes have all sorts of problems.  But ultimately I think it is a more catholic way of standing together before God than the non-segregated arrangement, which seems to me to be more focused on family, tribe, and/or the individual. 
How can you be so incarnationally constipated?

Don't forget about oc.net's women ;)

Can we have one thread where it doesn't devolve into how many people are hot for Mor?

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,937
  • Je suis Janusz Korwin-Mikke
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2017, 01:01:38 AM »
I don't understand how people can stand at the wrong side. I don't even have that long bacground as an Orthodox and I feel uncomfortable if I happen to stand at women's side.

As for Finland, the segration is not enforced but it's more or less happening. Some don't apply to it and I don't think  they receive bad looks but most stand at the correct side.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,918
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2017, 02:44:18 AM »
Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 34,717
  • Faith: God
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2017, 02:44:41 AM »
Thanks Mor Ephrem, that's quite a number of both practical and theological reasons, which all make sense. :)
"It is not as a child that I believe and confess Jesus Christ. My hosanna is born of a furnace of doubt." - Dostoevsky

Offline servulus

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Faith: Catechumen
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2017, 03:37:57 AM »
Mommies need help.
The father could take half the children with him. Or at least some of them.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,918
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2017, 10:10:37 AM »
Mommies need help.

Economia is the basis for exceptions, not rules. Why can't the very back of the church be the youngest families, with babies and parents going back and forth as necessary?

The way I grew up (not Orthodox, just a practical example), babies of 1 year old or so, of both sexes, tended to sit with fathers and infants with mothers. American fathers might not be able to pull that off (tragic if true), but it is just one example of how traditions aren't that irksome for traditional people.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 10:16:07 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • "Mor has a huge ego"
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,022
  • We are all Gustavito!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2017, 11:20:58 AM »
Mommies need help.

Economia is the basis for exceptions, not rules. Why can't the very back of the church be the youngest families, with babies and parents going back and forth as necessary?

The way I grew up (not Orthodox, just a practical example), babies of 1 year old or so, of both sexes, tended to sit with fathers and infants with mothers. American fathers might not be able to pull that off (tragic if true), but it is just one example of how traditions aren't that irksome for traditional people.

I'm not even sure you need to designate places for families with young children and what not.  In my home parish, children generally stand at the front, teens and young adults in the middle, and older people in the back, males on one side and females on the other.  This isn't strictly enforced, but it generally holds true.  What I saw growing up was that parents of young children would either divide them by sex and take care of their half or they'd share the responsibility by taking turns regardless of the sex of the children.  Also, the people standing around you would've offered to help or been asked to help, whether or not they were related to you, because you are always standing together and people were more comfortable with one another.  There was a sense that the parish was a family and everyone helped everyone else, even when it came to childcare.  The familiarity and relationships this created lasted far beyond the few years you as a child stood with your parents as opposed to standing in the front with the other kids. 

Much of that seems to have been lost with this generation.  Everyone has his own family, regards it as an independent entity that just happens to attend this church, and strives to maintain that independence and avoid outside interference except when they seek it out from other like-minded independent entities that just happen to attend the same church.  The parishes feel less integrated.  People don't know each other.  Cliques form more easily.  Parish politics become more contentious.  There's less a sense that we are the one family of God gathered in a particular place and more a sense of the church as a sort of spiritual Walmart.  The heavy emphasis on individualism, the consumerist mentality, the disconnection from other human beings, etc., it's all a major problem which the Church should be helping to address by being itself but instead it's steadily infiltrating the Church. 
How can you be so incarnationally constipated?

Don't forget about oc.net's women ;)

Can we have one thread where it doesn't devolve into how many people are hot for Mor?

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Delusional Overlord
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,304
  • And the cat is back again.
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2017, 06:07:13 PM »
Now Mor has made me wish that our parish was gender segregated.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • "Mor has a huge ego"
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,022
  • We are all Gustavito!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2017, 06:20:24 PM »
Now Mor has made me wish that our parish was gender segregated.

We'd still be on the same side.   :-*
How can you be so incarnationally constipated?

Don't forget about oc.net's women ;)

Can we have one thread where it doesn't devolve into how many people are hot for Mor?

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Delusional Overlord
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,304
  • And the cat is back again.
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2017, 06:37:00 PM »
Now Mor has made me wish that our parish was gender segregated.

We'd still be on the same side.   :-*
That would be.... lovely.  ;)
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,009
  • The icon is of myself
  • Faith: Atheist Chalcedonian
  • Jurisdiction: With Pews
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2017, 06:50:50 PM »
Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.
Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 06:58:36 PM by augustin717 »
Beaucoup de ces dieux ont péri
C'est sur eux que pleurent les saules
Le grand Pan l'amour Jésus-Christ
Sont bien morts et les chats miaulent...

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,918
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2017, 07:06:43 PM »
Mommies need help.

Economia is the basis for exceptions, not rules. Why can't the very back of the church be the youngest families, with babies and parents going back and forth as necessary?

The way I grew up (not Orthodox, just a practical example), babies of 1 year old or so, of both sexes, tended to sit with fathers and infants with mothers. American fathers might not be able to pull that off (tragic if true), but it is just one example of how traditions aren't that irksome for traditional people.

I'm not even sure you need to designate places for families with young children and what not.  In my home parish, children generally stand at the front, teens and young adults in the middle, and older people in the back, males on one side and females on the other.  This isn't strictly enforced, but it generally holds true.  What I saw growing up was that parents of young children would either divide them by sex and take care of their half or they'd share the responsibility by taking turns regardless of the sex of the children.  Also, the people standing around you would've offered to help or been asked to help, whether or not they were related to you, because you are always standing together and people were more comfortable with one another.  There was a sense that the parish was a family and everyone helped everyone else, even when it came to childcare.  The familiarity and relationships this created lasted far beyond the few years you as a child stood with your parents as opposed to standing in the front with the other kids. 

Much of that seems to have been lost with this generation.  Everyone has his own family, regards it as an independent entity that just happens to attend this church, and strives to maintain that independence and avoid outside interference except when they seek it out from other like-minded independent entities that just happen to attend the same church.  The parishes feel less integrated.  People don't know each other.  Cliques form more easily.  Parish politics become more contentious.  There's less a sense that we are the one family of God gathered in a particular place and more a sense of the church as a sort of spiritual Walmart.  The heavy emphasis on individualism, the consumerist mentality, the disconnection from other human beings, etc., it's all a major problem which the Church should be helping to address by being itself but instead it's steadily infiltrating the Church.

Truly lovely.

What we're witnessing is the withering of the human organism. I'd say dying, but I try to have more faith. Humankind has gone thru a lot of things, and God always has his plan.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline ZealousZeal

  • Ima Xanthippe
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,768
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2017, 08:55:07 PM »
Much of that seems to have been lost with this generation.  Everyone has his own family, regards it as an independent entity that just happens to attend this church, and strives to maintain that independence and avoid outside interference except when they seek it out from other like-minded independent entities that just happen to attend the same church.  The parishes feel less integrated.  People don't know each other.  Cliques form more easily.  Parish politics become more contentious.  There's less a sense that we are the one family of God gathered in a particular place and more a sense of the church as a sort of spiritual Walmart.  The heavy emphasis on individualism, the consumerist mentality, the disconnection from other human beings, etc., it's all a major problem which the Church should be helping to address by being itself but instead it's steadily infiltrating the Church.

Are you making observations about this generation in general? Or do you see this ^ as a result of desegregated parish standing?
O Virgin pure, immaculate, O Lady Theotokos
Rejoice, O unwedded Bride!
O fleece bedewed with every grace, O Virgin Queen and Mother
Rejoice, O unwedded Bride!

Offline Hawkeye

  • Διονύσιος ὁ Νέος Άνκορεϊτζίτης
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 827
  • Όσιος Ιωάσαφ Χριστόδουλος
  • Faith: More Neronov's than Avvakum's
  • Jurisdiction: Old Rite, Chapelist ("Double-Crossers")
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2017, 09:12:53 PM »
Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.
Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated

It's the same among most, if not all, of the priestless Chapelist Old Believers in the Americas. No fence but men stand in front and women in the back. When my maternal grandfather was appointed the rector of his village church, he attempted to change it to women on one side and men on the other, believing it to be an older tradition. The idea didn't go over very well and they ousted him instead.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,009
  • The icon is of myself
  • Faith: Atheist Chalcedonian
  • Jurisdiction: With Pews
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2017, 09:38:11 PM »
^it was most likely a modernist, kinda hypocritical  impulse "separated but equal" . Whereas the ladies at the back was a more frank statement about their place in the church and society 😉
Anyhow this was a universal arrangement in all the older churches back home , it survives to this day but it's no longer universal . They recently dismantled the separation fence in the older church in my hometown and in the new one they never built one.
Beaucoup de ces dieux ont péri
C'est sur eux que pleurent les saules
Le grand Pan l'amour Jésus-Christ
Sont bien morts et les chats miaulent...

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,004
  • Pray for me Sts. Mina & Kyrillos for my interviews
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2017, 01:04:36 AM »
Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.
Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated

It's the same among most, if not all, of the priestless Chapelist Old Believers in the Americas. No fence but men stand in front and women in the back. When my maternal grandfather was appointed the rector of his village church, he attempted to change it to women on one side and men on the other, believing it to be an older tradition. The idea didn't go over very well and they ousted him instead.

Your grandfather was right.  It is the oldest tradition we know.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,937
  • Je suis Janusz Korwin-Mikke
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2017, 06:00:20 AM »
I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad.

I can think up possible reasons, but rather than presume... why do you feel that way?

Related to this, I think it's helpful in modeling the faith for future generations.  Young men and boys standing on the men's side of a church are surrounded by and observe older men while they pray and worship, are perhaps even guided by these men in how to conduct themselves during the services, etc.  They learn how to be Christian men by spending time with Christian men.  The same can be said for young women and girls worshiping in the midst of older women. 

Writing from a plane so just a quick remark. I find this rather ad hoc argument for already established position. Holiness is not gender-specific.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,031
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2017, 10:11:54 AM »
From what I understand most Slavic Orthodox churches have Gender seperation, as opposed to most Greek Orthodox Churches, from my limited experience.

In the USA for sure, but not in Greece.

I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.



Was referring to the Greeks.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • "Mor has a huge ego"
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,022
  • We are all Gustavito!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2017, 10:54:54 AM »
Much of that seems to have been lost with this generation.  Everyone has his own family, regards it as an independent entity that just happens to attend this church, and strives to maintain that independence and avoid outside interference except when they seek it out from other like-minded independent entities that just happen to attend the same church.  The parishes feel less integrated.  People don't know each other.  Cliques form more easily.  Parish politics become more contentious.  There's less a sense that we are the one family of God gathered in a particular place and more a sense of the church as a sort of spiritual Walmart.  The heavy emphasis on individualism, the consumerist mentality, the disconnection from other human beings, etc., it's all a major problem which the Church should be helping to address by being itself but instead it's steadily infiltrating the Church.

Are you making observations about this generation in general? Or do you see this ^ as a result of desegregated parish standing?

In the particular case I had in mind, I think desegregation is more of an effect than a cause.  That said, it's hard for me to see how it will help improve the situation rather than canonising it. 
How can you be so incarnationally constipated?

Don't forget about oc.net's women ;)

Can we have one thread where it doesn't devolve into how many people are hot for Mor?

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • "Mor has a huge ego"
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,022
  • We are all Gustavito!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2017, 11:04:03 AM »
I'm in the USA, and I attend a Ukrainian parish...and we are NOT segregated. 

We used to be, with women standing on the left as you enter, and men on the right.

However, over the years many young families have joined, and the parents wish to tend to their young children together.

Today, we stand wherever we like.

I am witnessing this transition occurring in an Indian parish and it makes me sad.

I can think up possible reasons, but rather than presume... why do you feel that way?

Related to this, I think it's helpful in modeling the faith for future generations.  Young men and boys standing on the men's side of a church are surrounded by and observe older men while they pray and worship, are perhaps even guided by these men in how to conduct themselves during the services, etc.  They learn how to be Christian men by spending time with Christian men.  The same can be said for young women and girls worshiping in the midst of older women. 

Writing from a plane so just a quick remark. I find this rather ad hoc argument for already established position. Holiness is not gender-specific.

Holiness is not gender specific, but we remain men and women as we are sanctified, and so how we live that out will often reflect that difference, even if it is also at times transcended. 

Anyway, what you quoted had less to do with "holiness" than upbringing, at least as I intended it. 
How can you be so incarnationally constipated?

Don't forget about oc.net's women ;)

Can we have one thread where it doesn't devolve into how many people are hot for Mor?

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,515
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: POC, but my heart belongs to Antioch
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2017, 02:14:10 PM »
Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.
Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated

It's the same among most, if not all, of the priestless Chapelist Old Believers in the Americas. No fence but men stand in front and women in the back. When my maternal grandfather was appointed the rector of his village church, he attempted to change it to women on one side and men on the other, believing it to be an older tradition. The idea didn't go over very well and they ousted him instead.

Your grandfather was right.  It is the oldest tradition we know.

So our ancestors weren't aware of the fact that men doing bows in front of women may be distracting ::)
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

My Orthodox liturgical blog "For what eat, while you can fast" in Polish (videos featuring chants in different languages)

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • "Mor has a huge ego"
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,022
  • We are all Gustavito!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2017, 03:09:12 PM »
Men stand before the Christ, women the Theotokos. It's an iconic tradition that's not special to Slavs. The U.S. is just a bit messed up, and not only in this way. Greeks in the U.S. just weren't pious until rather recently -- they came to North America in large numbers starting in the '20s but barely even bothered to have churches until decades later. Most came with a secular, material outlook and the apostasy continues in some degree, in my opinion.
Ha! ITS not as simple as straightfirward as that trust me.  The older tradition at least among the Eastern European Byzantines was women at the back separated from the men in the front by a low fence/wall.  But since going go liturgy is also, by tradition mostly a women's business,   there were some women spilling over the fence. . But their place was at the back, architecturally delineated

It's the same among most, if not all, of the priestless Chapelist Old Believers in the Americas. No fence but men stand in front and women in the back. When my maternal grandfather was appointed the rector of his village church, he attempted to change it to women on one side and men on the other, believing it to be an older tradition. The idea didn't go over very well and they ousted him instead.

Your grandfather was right.  It is the oldest tradition we know.

So our ancestors weren't aware of the fact that men doing bows in front of women may be distracting ::)

Maybe they thought men were too ugly to be a temptation to women.   :angel:
How can you be so incarnationally constipated?

Don't forget about oc.net's women ;)

Can we have one thread where it doesn't devolve into how many people are hot for Mor?

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,918
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2017, 10:11:07 PM »
^it was most likely a modernist, kinda hypocritical  impulse "separated but equal" . Whereas the ladies at the back was a more frank statement about their place in the church and society 😉

This kind of thinking is close to an idea that God did injustice to produce man in different states and kinds. Even in our society, which holds as a goal to level all, children are not the same as adults, teachers as students, bosses as employees. St. Paul said it not possible that man should not be arranged and ordered, and that he who tries to defy this simply fights the God of nature and dooms himself. Traditionally in liturgy the children kissed other children, women other women, men men, the ordained the ordained, and perhaps elders and aristocrats were similarly segregated. I assume standing arrangements were based on a similar idea. That matters of that sort should be disposed so as to reflect the facts of man's arrangements in this life seems natural and proper enough.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,009
  • The icon is of myself
  • Faith: Atheist Chalcedonian
  • Jurisdiction: With Pews
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2017, 10:44:02 PM »

When Adam delved and Eve span,
Who was then the gentleman?
Beaucoup de ces dieux ont péri
C'est sur eux que pleurent les saules
Le grand Pan l'amour Jésus-Christ
Sont bien morts et les chats miaulent...

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,918
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2017, 11:26:03 PM »

When Adam delved and Eve span,
Who was then the gentleman?

Not, When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the man?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,009
  • The icon is of myself
  • Faith: Atheist Chalcedonian
  • Jurisdiction: With Pews
Re: Are Ukrainian Orthodox services gender segregated?
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2017, 11:31:18 PM »
Well that too. Genesis is kinda ambiguous with those two different narratives.
Beaucoup de ces dieux ont péri
C'est sur eux que pleurent les saules
Le grand Pan l'amour Jésus-Christ
Sont bien morts et les chats miaulent...