Author Topic: Burger King  (Read 3731 times)

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Offline Dominika

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2015, 05:28:05 AM »
I forgot to ask the professor, I'll do it next time.


Its meaning likely varied from place to place. For example, the Russians had to invent a new word for a city-person («горожа́нин») when «граждани́н» came to have too broad of a meaning.
We're not talking about old Russian/old Bulgarian/old Serbian etc. languages, but Church Slavonic language, that its developmented has ended very early. So, the variations of the places doesn't mattter here - if it was the case, we would be talking about old -x Slavic langauge (especially used by Orthodox people) that had a lot of borrowings (vocabulary and grammatical forms) from the Church Slavonic, as only this one had written form.

The Church Slavonic - Polish dictionary clearly states what граждани́н means, as I said: only a person living in a city. The vulgar vernaculars or later development are not important here, as it wouldn't be Church Slavonic anymore.

гражда́нских it's adjective in plural, so it doesn't mean "king of citizens".

Well, it depends on how broad of a definition you accept. With your narrower one, «цáрь гражда́нских» does mean "king of city-people," which is no issue if our goal is to translate "burgher."

That is, a king who is also a citizen of a city.
The form гражда́нских is not correct in this phrase, as it's just adjective in plural, so you have to add a noun (in plural) in this case to make it logical. I don't know if you're a Slav; if so, you should understand it without even a little knowledge of Church Slavonic.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2015, 08:35:03 AM »
We're not talking about old Russian/old Bulgarian/old Serbian etc. languages, but Church Slavonic language, that its developmented has ended very early. So, the variations of the places doesn't mattter here - if it was the case, we would be talking about old -x Slavic langauge (especially used by Orthodox people) that had a lot of borrowings (vocabulary and grammatical forms) from the Church Slavonic, as only this one had written form.
...
The vulgar vernaculars or later development are not important here, as it wouldn't be Church Slavonic anymore.

I just don't know how solidly we can delineate between various older Slavic languages and Church Slavonic. Different recessions exist today precisely because they affected one another. How late, I cannot say but, if you consider the Russian experience, Church Slavonic was undergoing change even in the mid-17th century. Likewise, I'm simply not convinced that because it wasn't the common language that its vocabulary was necessarily immutable and couldn't have words take on new meanings.

The Church Slavonic - Polish dictionary clearly states what граждани́н means, as I said: only a person living in a city.

I don't own any sort of Church Slavonic dictionary but I stand by my previous thoughts. Again, however, even if it only means a city-dweller, «граждани́н» still works as an approximation of "burgher."

The form гражда́нских is not correct in this phrase, as it's just adjective in plural, so you have to add a noun (in plural) in this case to make it logical.

I'll concede your point. My problem I suppose is that «цáрь гражда́нских» seems to me to imply that "people" is to follow, whatever the proper word and declension might be. I can't confirm if this is correct or not but it's how I read it.

To get around this issue, based on «гра́ждане» in Luke 19:14, perhaps «цáрь гра́ждан» then?

I don't know if you're a Slav; if so, you should understand it without even a little knowledge of Church Slavonic.

I'm as much a Slav as a Slav can be but I never did get a good hold on Russian, let alone Church Slavonic, grammar. I just like being helpful around here when I can and so pipe up when I probably shouldn't.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2015, 11:16:42 AM »
As I said before, I'm not sure why you are going for the direct translation route of Burger being Citizen or Inhabitant.  Hamburger is an adjective meaning from Hamburg.  It could be a person of the Freie und Hansestadt itself, or it could be...well, a victual from Hamburg.  Much like Wienerschnitzel is from Vienna.  The best bet in Russian/Slavonic I think would be to do what English, Modern Russian, Indonesian, and just about any other language I can think of did and use the German adjective as a noun representing the food itself.  So, just take Burger (I don't have a CS font so...бургер) and make it Genitive...so Король бургеров...or Tsar if you are so inclined.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2016, 03:46:18 AM »
Alright, this is a weird request.

Does anyone happen to know what Burger King is in CS?
They would probably just transliterate it, because modern Russians do.

Бургеръ Кингъ

or something like that.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2016, 06:26:33 AM »
WAIT! 

We're talking about "burgher", as in "someone from an autonomous corporate entity in Scotland and Northern England", and not "burger" as in "the best food ever"?

Hamburger comes from the German Hamburger - a burgher (burger) of Hamburg. Thus burgher and burger are etymologically the same.


and then there is this guy.....which truly combines the best of all of it.




The new Hamburglar is a creeper.


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Offline mike

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2016, 02:00:44 PM »
Alright, this is a weird request.

Does anyone happen to know what Burger King is in CS?
They would probably just transliterate it, because modern Russians do.

Бургеръ Кингъ

or something like that.

Without hard signs.
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2016, 02:04:06 PM »
Alright, this is a weird request.

Does anyone happen to know what Burger King is in CS?
They would probably just transliterate it, because modern Russians do.

Бургеръ Кингъ

or something like that.

Without hard signs.

If written in Church Slavonic with the old CS letters (what they are called I don't know) there would be hard signs. But if written in CS with modern Cyrillic letters the hard signs would most probably be omitted, at least in a Russian redaction.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 02:05:42 PM by FinnJames »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2016, 12:25:02 AM »
written in Church Slavonic with the old CS letters (what they are called I don't know) there would be hard signs.



Yes.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 12:42:19 AM by rakovsky »

Offline mike

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2016, 12:37:19 AM »
written in Church Slavonic with the old CS letters (what they are called I don't know) there would be hard signs.



Yes.

If you post such thing, please don't do that with a picture cut from the right.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Burger King
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2016, 12:42:41 AM »
Yes.

If you post such thing, please don't do that with a picture cut from the right.
I have uncut mine above. But in real life what is cut often cannot be uncut.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 12:43:21 AM by rakovsky »