Author Topic: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian  (Read 875 times)

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Offline eddybear

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Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« on: February 18, 2017, 06:42:02 PM »
I'm trying to learn the Lord's prayer in Russian, as we sometimes sing it in church. Listening on Youtube, the word for "your" is often pronounced TVO-ye which is how our musical score has it (we only have a phonetic version). But in other videos, including a teaching one, it is pronounced tva-YO. The associated texts spell it with the last letter being "e" in the first instance, and "e with 2 dots" in the second. Which is correct?

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2017, 07:33:29 PM »
Quote
Отче наш, Иже еси на небесех!
Да святится имя Твое,
да приидет Царствие Твое,
да будет воля Твоя,
яко на небеси и на земли.
Хлеб наш насущный даждь нам днесь;
и остави нам долги наша,
якоже и мы оставляем должником нашим;
и не введи нас во искушение,
но избави нас от лукаваго.

Read more: http://www.lords-prayer-words.com/versions/lords_prayer_russian.html#ixzz4Z5CrzHym

http://www.lords-prayer-words.com/versions/lords_prayer_russian.html
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 07:40:35 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2017, 07:37:24 PM »
AFAIK it's "tva-YO".
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 07:37:47 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2017, 07:56:07 PM »
Orthodox Wiki Page.
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Lord%27s_Prayer#Old_Church_Slavonic

Interesting issue, because your question itself is not correct and correcting it shows the best answer. The correction is that Orthodox Churches do not sing "Russian", they sing an updated version of "Church Slavonic".

The Old Church Slavonic here is:
    Оч͠е нашь ижє ѥси на н͠бсєхъ . да с͠титьсѧ имѧ
    твоѥ да придєть ц͠рствиѥ твоѥ · да бѫдєть воля
    твоя · яка на н͠бси и на земли хлѣбъ нашь насѫщьиыи ·
    даждь намъ дьньсь · и остави намъ · длъгы
    нашѧ · яко и мы оставляємъ длъжникомъ нашимъ
    и нє въвєди насъ въ напасть · иъ избави ны отъ
    нєприязни

In Church Slavonic, the letter is ѥ
That is a conjunction of English y and e, or in modern Russian йэ

Old Church Slavonic uses ѥ , prounced йэ.
Updated Church Slavonic uses е, pronounced йэ
Modern Russian uses ё, writes it as ё or е, pronounces it as йо.

We go by the Updated Church slavonic, and you can check it in this choir song in Moscow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbeZqnNCUOk

The way they are singing it would be wrong in their modern Russian, so they are singing it not in modern Russian, but in Church Slavonic.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline eddybear

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Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2017, 08:04:19 PM »
That is a great explanation, thank you. I hadn't appreciated the difference between Old Church Slavonic, Updated Church Slavonic, and Russian, but it makes sense now.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 08:05:17 PM by eddybear »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2017, 08:46:13 PM »
That is a great explanation, thank you. I hadn't appreciated the difference between Old Church Slavonic, Updated Church Slavonic, and Russian, but it makes sense now.
Thanks Eddy.

The Lord's Prayer in the updated version uses many pre Russian words like Otche, Dazhd, Dnes, Izhe, Yesi.
Nebesyekh is an outdated version of Nebesah.

It's kind of like how in English in Church we say Thy, Thou, and other such outdated English.
There is supposedly a theological reason too why God is called thee and thy as an informal word.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2017, 08:48:12 PM »
Art, hallowed, thy, and "trespasses"
Are either old words or are not used in the same contexts as 500 years ago, but we still understand them.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 08:48:32 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2017, 08:24:53 AM »
I want also to remind that there are various redactions (versions) of Church Slavonic, so e.g in the Bulgarian version it is said "Tvoe", not "Tvoye", in Serbian version it's said "vovedi", not "vvedi" etc.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2017, 12:21:59 AM »
I want also to remind that there are various redactions (versions) of Church Slavonic, so e.g in the Bulgarian version it is said "Tvoe", not "Tvoye", in Serbian version it's said "vovedi", not "vvedi" etc.
I know that Bulgarian kept the yers (ъ), and that ввѣди was probably въвѣди, but is the Serbian pronunciation related to the yers? I never heard that Serbian pronounced the yers.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2017, 12:28:32 AM »
I want also to remind that there are various redactions (versions) of Church Slavonic, so e.g in the Bulgarian version it is said "Tvoe", not "Tvoye", in Serbian version it's said "vovedi", not "vvedi" etc.
I know that Bulgarian kept the yers (ъ), and that ввѣди was probably въвѣди, but is the Serbian pronunciation related to the yers?
Indirectly, yes sir.

Etymologyically: Во Веди ~~ Въ Веди

Воведи
Въведи
Введи

The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20