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Author Topic: Doctrines of the Last Things-western Catholic  (Read 3076 times) Average Rating: 5
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2010, 08:48:44 AM »

The Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the particular judgment is necessarily permanent.  The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)
Looking at Ott, it would also seem that the Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the Final, or General, judgment is necessarily permanent or final. In fact, the phrase "General judgment" is used in Ott only once, but it's permanency is not discussed:


Thank you for the information from Ott.  We need to ask Fr Kimel if this corresponds with the recent teaching of the Catholic Church.  He has reproached me for referring to things from a hundred years ago.   Ott's sentiments seem to contradict the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul ii in 1997 which is, probably, the most recent teaching.

(However, you seem to be confusing the Particular and the General Judgement.  I just think you got the terminology mixed.)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 08:51:25 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2010, 09:14:59 AM »

The Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the particular judgment is necessarily permanent.  The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)
Looking at Ott, it would also seem that the Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the Final, or General, judgment is necessarily permanent or final. In fact, the phrase "General judgment" is used in Ott only once, but it's permanency is not discussed:


Thank you for the information from Ott.  We need to ask Fr Kimel if this corresponds with the recent teaching of the Catholic Church.  He has reproached me for referring to things from a hundred years ago.   Ott's sentiments seem to contradict the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul ii in 1997 which is, probably, the most recent teaching.

(However, you seem to be confusing the Particular and the General Judgement.  I just think you got the terminology mixed.)
The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913 equates the General Judgment with the Final Judgment: "Judicium Universale, Last Judgment".
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« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2010, 09:27:55 AM »

The Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the particular judgment is necessarily permanent.  The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)
Looking at Ott, it would also seem that the Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the Final, or General, judgment is necessarily permanent or final. In fact, the phrase "General judgment" is used in Ott only once, but it's permanency is not discussed:


Thank you for the information from Ott.  We need to ask Fr Kimel if this corresponds with the recent teaching of the Catholic Church.  He has reproached me for referring to things from a hundred years ago.   Ott's sentiments seem to contradict the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul ii in 1997 which is, probably, the most recent teaching.

(However, you seem to be confusing the Particular and the General Judgement.  I just think you got the terminology mixed.)
The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913 equates the General Judgment with the Final Judgment: "Judicium Universale, Last Judgment".
Yes, and the Orthodox also speak of either the Last Judgement or the Final Judgement.  It is one and the same event.

However in your quote above you confuse the Particular and the Last (Final) Judgement.

You write "it would also seem that the Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the Final, or General, judgment is necessarily permanent or final."   You really mean the Particular Judgement here.

However what you say is still incorrect because if you look at Ott, he says

3. With death the possibility of merit or demerit or conversion ceases. (Sent. certa.)
4. Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which, by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. (Sent. fidei proxima.)


Ott, as well as the CCC,  seems to contradict what Elijahmaria has been saying, namely that the Particular Judgement is not final and souls may be converted from one state to another up until the General (Final) Judgement.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 09:30:45 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2010, 01:51:23 PM »

The Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the particular judgment is necessarily permanent.  The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)
Looking at Ott, it would also seem that the Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the Final, or General, judgment is necessarily permanent or final. In fact, the phrase "General judgment" is used in Ott only once, but it's permanency is not discussed:

The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)


Even taken completely out of context, it should be clear to most anyone that purfying fire is the fire of purgatory, which, even logically would no longer be necessary after the General/Final Judgment.

How is it that you can jump from there to the assertion/assumption that Catholics teach that the final judgment is not permanent?
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« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2010, 01:51:23 PM »

The Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the particular judgment is necessarily permanent.  The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)
Looking at Ott, it would also seem that the Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the Final, or General, judgment is necessarily permanent or final. In fact, the phrase "General judgment" is used in Ott only once, but it's permanency is not discussed:


Thank you for the information from Ott.  We need to ask Fr Kimel if this corresponds with the recent teaching of the Catholic Church.  He has reproached me for referring to things from a hundred years ago.   Ott's sentiments seem to contradict the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul ii in 1997 which is, probably, the most recent teaching.

(However, you seem to be confusing the Particular and the General Judgement.  I just think you got the terminology mixed.)
The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913 equates the General Judgment with the Final Judgment: "Judicium Universale, Last Judgment".
Yes, and the Orthodox also speak of either the Last Judgement or the Final Judgement.  It is one and the same event.

However in your quote above you confuse the Particular and the Last (Final) Judgement.

You write "it would also seem that the Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the Final, or General, judgment is necessarily permanent or final."   You really mean the Particular Judgement here.

However what you say is still incorrect because if you look at Ott, he says

3. With death the possibility of merit or demerit or conversion ceases. (Sent. certa.)
4. Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which, by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. (Sent. fidei proxima.)


Ott, as well as the CCC,  seems to contradict what Elijahmaria has been saying, namely that the Particular Judgement is not final and souls may be converted from one state to another up until the General (Final) Judgement.

There is no contradiction here Father.  Continuing to shove it back at the Catholic on this forum is not going to make it so.

The message that our state in the hereafter is set when we die, indicates that once dead, we can no longer on our own change the direction of our choice...The teaching is that there are NO "ooopsies!!" once we breath our last here on earth.  If that fire burns!! so be it!!...so to speak.

AND...as in both/and...

There is NOTHING that says that God cannot change the direction of our life everlasting as he wills. 

In fact as you have seen in the notes above in this thread thread this most recent effort of yours to interject your own personal and erroneous interpretations, the Catholic Church in her liturgies, in her formal Catechism, in the words of the saints of the ages, and more recently a young saint and Doctor of the Church indicate most clearly that "All is possible with God."....

Apparently you must have some need to continue to press your own agenda here.

One wonders.

In Christ

Mary

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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2010, 03:06:23 PM »

The Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the particular judgment is necessarily permanent.  The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)
Looking at Ott, it would also seem that the Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the Final, or General, judgment is necessarily permanent or final. In fact, the phrase "General judgment" is used in Ott only once, but it's permanency is not discussed:


Thank you for the information from Ott.  We need to ask Fr Kimel if this corresponds with the recent teaching of the Catholic Church.  He has reproached me for referring to things from a hundred years ago.   Ott's sentiments seem to contradict the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul ii in 1997 which is, probably, the most recent teaching.

(However, you seem to be confusing the Particular and the General Judgement.  I just think you got the terminology mixed.)
The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913 equates the General Judgment with the Final Judgment: "Judicium Universale, Last Judgment".
Yes, and the Orthodox also speak of either the Last Judgement or the Final Judgement.  It is one and the same event.

However in your quote above you confuse the Particular and the Last (Final) Judgement.

You write "it would also seem that the Catholic Church does not teach, de fide, that the Final, or General, judgment is necessarily permanent or final."   You really mean the Particular Judgement here.

However what you say is still incorrect because if you look at Ott, he says

3. With death the possibility of merit or demerit or conversion ceases. (Sent. certa.)
4. Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which, by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. (Sent. fidei proxima.)


Ott, as well as the CCC,  seems to contradict what Elijahmaria has been saying, namely that the Particular Judgement is not final and souls may be converted from one state to another up until the General (Final) Judgement.

There is no contradiction here Father.  Continuing to shove it back at the Catholic on this forum is not going to make it so.

The message that our state in the hereafter is set when we die, indicates that once dead, we can no longer on our own change the direction of our choice...The teaching is that there are NO "ooopsies!!" once we breath our last here on earth.  If that fire burns!! so be it!!...so to speak.

AND...as in both/and...

There is NOTHING that says that God cannot change the direction of our life everlasting as he wills. 

In fact as you have seen in the notes above in this thread thread this most recent effort of yours to interject your own personal and erroneous interpretations, the Catholic Church in her liturgies, in her formal Catechism, in the words of the saints of the ages, and more recently a young saint and Doctor of the Church indicate most clearly that "All is possible with God."....

Apparently you must have some need to continue to press your own agenda here.

One wonders.

In Christ

Mary



I wonder as well.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2010, 03:23:28 PM »


Apparently you must have some need to continue to press your own agenda here.



One wonders.

In Christ

Mary



I wonder as well.

My agenda stems from an extreme distaste for what I see as the barely concealed dishonesty of modern Roman Catholicism and its theological sleight of hand wherein it tries to pretend that while it is revamping doctrine it is not revamping.

Sorry for saying it so openly but you sort of forced my hand.

To see a small explanation of this please see Message 1044 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg421044.html#msg421044
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« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2010, 03:25:28 PM »


Apparently you must have some need to continue to press your own agenda here.



One wonders.

In Christ

Mary



I wonder as well.

My agenda stems from an extreme distaste for what I see as the barely concealed dishonesty of modern Roman Catholicism and its theological sleight of hand wherein it tries to pretend that while it is revamping doctrine it is not revamping.

Sorry for saying it so openly but you sort of forced my hand.

To see a small explanation of this please see Message 1044 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg421044.html#msg421044
And that is why feel compelled to speak for Catholic theology, which you often claim to not understand?
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« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2010, 03:48:36 PM »


Apparently you must have some need to continue to press your own agenda here.



One wonders.

In Christ

Mary



I wonder as well.

My agenda stems from an extreme distaste for what I see as the barely concealed dishonesty of modern Roman Catholicism and its theological sleight of hand wherein it tries to pretend that while it is revamping doctrine it is not revamping.

Sorry for saying it so openly but you sort of forced my hand.

To see a small explanation of this please see Message 1044 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg421044.html#msg421044
And that is why feel compelled to speak for Catholic theology, which you often claim to not understand?

That's correct.  But at this point we should probably leave Father to his extreme distastes. 

He is wrong for several different reasons, and there's no changing his mind.  But there is enough of the truth in this thread for anyone wishing to look and see it.

Mary
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2010, 02:34:47 AM »

Article on Apokatastasis in Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Maximos the Confessor:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080115195446/www.romancatholicism.org/maximos-apokatastasis.htm
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Tags: particular judgment Hell death partial judgement forgiveness after death apokatastasis 
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