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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2010, 02:11:36 PM »

There are Protestants right here in Southern California that use the same dishonest tactics to convert Roman Catholics - even putting statues of Mary and rosaries in their churches!  Of course, in Cardinal Mahoney's L.A. they often look more Catholic than the "real" (i.e. diocesan) churches! laugh

Can you give any specific examples of this, so perhaps we can look at their websites? I've never heard of this before.
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2010, 02:23:11 PM »

I'm sort of glad the protestants are giving the Orthodox Churches competition,If Orthodoxy wants to keep it's faithful, it better fight the good fight till the end, for the salvation of souls...

It will Keep Orthodoxy alert ,from becoming Lax, Lazy ....... Grin

More than any other point, this has been my underlying belief as well. Thanks!

Can't believe I'm agreeing with Stashko  Shocked But here I am  Grin
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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2010, 02:25:24 PM »

There are Protestants right here in Southern California that use the same dishonest tactics to convert Roman Catholics - even putting statues of Mary and rosaries in their churches!  Of course, in Cardinal Mahoney's L.A. they often look more Catholic than the "real" (i.e. diocesan) churches! laugh
I am sure fake Christians in the SC area (MacArthur, Chick) just LOOOOVE that
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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2010, 02:31:05 PM »

Even a uneducated Orthodox country bumkin can tell that this isn't true Eastern Orthodox Clergy ....  Grin



There was a post posted that shows Lutherans in Ukraine that use the Liturgy of St. John ..Even then  a person can tell it isn't True Orthodoxy, or a true Orthodox Church..... Grin
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« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2010, 02:49:53 PM »

There was a post posted that shows Lutherans in Ukraine that use the Liturgy of St. John ..Even then  a person can tell it isn't True Orthodoxy, or a true Orthodox Church..... Grin

Here's what the butchers have done with the liturgy:

http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/saintsophiaseminary/liturgy.html

Note that the Filioque is present, and that petitions to saints and the Mother of God are apparently removed.
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« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2010, 02:58:32 PM »

Shameful. Impersonating Orthodox Clerics should be illegal. Freedom of religion does not cover being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this may sound extreme but what would happen if they dressed like the local police?

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.
No Way! This only turns people away from the Church!

What would turn people away from the Church?
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« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2010, 03:05:46 PM »

There was a post posted that shows Lutherans in Ukraine that use the Liturgy of St. John ..Even then  a person can tell it isn't True Orthodoxy, or a true Orthodox Church..... Grin

Here's what the butchers have done with the liturgy:

http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/saintsophiaseminary/liturgy.html

Note that the Filioque is present, and that petitions to saints and the Mother of God are apparently removed.

This Liturgy that the Lutherans Use, Minus the Petitions to the saints and the Blessed Theotokos,May Leed some of the Parishoners to Join the True Orthodox Church and get the Real Mc Coy...They  could be sowing true Orthodoxy Into The Minds and souls Of there Faithful, unintentionally.... Grin
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« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2010, 03:09:35 PM »

This Liturgy that the Lutherans Use, Minus the Petitions to the saints and the Blessed Theotokos,May Leed some of the Parishoners to Join the True Orthodox Church and get the Real Mc Coy...They  could be sowing true Orthodoxy Into The Minds and souls Of there Faithful, unintentionally.... Grin

They only use it in Ukraine, and then they only use it as a tool to lure away the Orthodox and U-word people. This church isn't a step toward Orthodoxy, it's a step away from it; a corruption.
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« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2010, 03:15:08 PM »

This Liturgy that the Lutherans Use, Minus the Petitions to the saints and the Blessed Theotokos,May Leed some of the Parishoners to Join the True Orthodox Church and get the Real Mc Coy...They  could be sowing true Orthodoxy Into The Minds and souls Of there Faithful, unintentionally.... Grin

They only use it in Ukraine, and then they only use it as a tool to lure away the Orthodox and U-word people. This church isn't a step toward Orthodoxy, it's a step away from it; a corruption.

For some Maybe ,but Not for Others It can Also Be A stepping stone...Example Many Eastern Catholic ,Converted to the True Light Of Holy Orthodoxy,,I call it From Darkness to Light..... Grin
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« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2010, 04:09:56 PM »

Alveus:  No websites that I know of, I'm talking about actual buildings.  Also I used to live near Downtown and saw a lot of street corner "priests" with rosaries ... and bullhorns. Cheesy
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« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2010, 04:23:58 PM »

I'm sort of glad the protestants are giving the Orthodox Churches competition,If Orthodoxy wants to keep it's faithful, it better fight the good fight till the end, for the salvation of souls...

It will Keep Orthodoxy alert ,from becoming Lax, Lazy ....... Grin


Something tells me you’d feel differently if it was the Catholics your so fond of using these dishonest tactics.

“Competition” is one thing…subterfuge, bribery, and sheep stealing is something else.

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.

I agree.  There has to be some sort of regulation in place to counter the enormous amount of bribery they can bring to the fore when “using their wealth” to “make apostates of all nations”.

For some Maybe ,but Not for Others It can Also Be A stepping stone...Example Many Eastern Catholic ,Converted to the True Light Of Holy Orthodoxy,,I call it From Darkness to Light..... Grin

This makes no sense.  Protestantism is even further away from Orthodoxy than Catholicism is.

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« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2010, 04:28:07 PM »

We can Agree On One thing with the Protestants, I Hope ,,No Roman Popes...... Grin
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« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2010, 04:30:26 PM »

The website for the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia is here: http://www.ebcgeorgia.org/

I have no words.
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« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2010, 04:36:47 PM »

We can Agree On One thing with the Protestants, I Hope ,,No Roman Popes...... Grin

They got rid of the Pope of Rome and instead made every individual Pope. Not much improvement, if you ask me.
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« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2010, 04:55:00 PM »

We can Agree On One thing with the Protestants, I Hope ,,No Roman Popes...... Grin

They got rid of the Pope of Rome and instead made every individual Pope. Not much improvement, if you ask me.

Even one pope (in either the Roman or protestant sense) is one too many.
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« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2010, 05:06:43 PM »

We can Agree On One thing with the Protestants, I Hope ,,No Roman Popes...... Grin

They got rid of the Pope of Rome and instead made every individual Pope. Not much improvement, if you ask me.

Even one pope (in either the Roman or protestant sense) is one too many.

The issue is not the position of "pope" which is simply a vernacular term referring to one of the Five Patriarchs. The issue is that for 1200 odd years or so, the holders of the office have embraced heresy and have claimed more than was their place to do so.
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« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2010, 05:30:07 PM »

Shameful. Impersonating Orthodox Clerics should be illegal. Freedom of religion does not cover being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this may sound extreme but what would happen if they dressed like the local police?

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.
No Way! This only turns people away from the Church!

What would turn people away from the Church?
actually that keeps people into the Church, maintains social cohesion etc; it has been like that throughout most of our history; there would be no Orthodox country/society had we subscribed to the idea that a free religious market is a good thing.
Religious freedom for all sects will do the Orthodox churches no good where they form the religious establishment; it might bring in some converts elsewhere, but at home, it will drive people away from the Church.
Fortunately the Church (in Greece, Russia and Romania, probably in other countries as well) is still able to exert enough pressure upon the local governments and so, a soft form of religious discrimination, that favours the Orthodox is still in place.
That's why these countries get reprimanded every year by the US Department of State.
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« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2010, 05:57:34 PM »

The issue is not the position of "pope" which is simply a vernacular term referring to one of the Five Patriarchs. The issue is that for 1200 odd years or so, the holders of the office have embraced heresy and have claimed more than was their place to do so.

Bing!  Sound of nail being hit on head.

Shameful. Impersonating Orthodox Clerics should be illegal. Freedom of religion does not cover being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this may sound extreme but what would happen if they dressed like the local police?

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.
No Way! This only turns people away from the Church!

What would turn people away from the Church?
actually that keeps people into the Church, maintains social cohesion etc; it has been like that throughout most of our history; there would be no Orthodox country/society had we subscribed to the idea that a free religious market is a good thing.
Religious freedom for all sects will do the Orthodox churches no good where they form the religious establishment; it might bring in some converts elsewhere, but at home, it will drive people away from the Church.
Fortunately the Church (in Greece, Russia and Romania, probably in other countries as well) is still able to exert enough pressure upon the local governments and so, a soft form of religious discrimination, that favours the Orthodox is still in place.
That's why these countries get reprimanded every year by the US Department of State.

Bing! Bing! Sound of second nail being hit on head.

Bling! Bling! Sound of the latest Protestant abomination, the hip hop praise and worship service.  Yeah, importing this theological junk to the Orthodox world is a great move.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2005-11-27-hip-hop-church_x.htm
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« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2010, 06:10:46 PM »

Shameful. Impersonating Orthodox Clerics should be illegal. Freedom of religion does not cover being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this may sound extreme but what would happen if they dressed like the local police?

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.
No Way! This only turns people away from the Church!

What would turn people away from the Church?
actually that keeps people into the Church, maintains social cohesion etc; it has been like that throughout most of our history; there would be no Orthodox country/society had we subscribed to the idea that a free religious market is a good thing.
Religious freedom for all sects will do the Orthodox churches no good where they form the religious establishment; it might bring in some converts elsewhere, but at home, it will drive people away from the Church.
Fortunately the Church (in Greece, Russia and Romania, probably in other countries as well) is still able to exert enough pressure upon the local governments and so, a soft form of religious discrimination, that favours the Orthodox is still in place.
That's why these countries get reprimanded every year by the US Department of State.

While I don't believe in legal restraints except as a last resort, I understand what you are saying: if it hadn't been for Roman emperors making Christianity the state religion, who knows if my Greek ancestors would ever have become Christian? Which means, I could have grown up worshipping Zeus.

But considering the things missionaries reportedly do, I fully agree that it is "last resort" time for Orthodox governments.
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« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2010, 06:17:05 PM »

btw, I just read a sermon by St. John Chrysostom where he was saying that God permits heresies to attack in order to expose their feebleness and the Faith's strength--"My power is perfected in weakness."
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« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2010, 07:47:28 PM »

Shameful. Impersonating Orthodox Clerics should be illegal. Freedom of religion does not cover being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this may sound extreme but what would happen if they dressed like the local police?

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.
No Way! This only turns people away from the Church!

What would turn people away from the Church?
actually that keeps people into the Church, maintains social cohesion etc; it has been like that throughout most of our history; there would be no Orthodox country/society had we subscribed to the idea that a free religious market is a good thing.
Religious freedom for all sects will do the Orthodox churches no good where they form the religious establishment; it might bring in some converts elsewhere, but at home, it will drive people away from the Church.
Fortunately the Church (in Greece, Russia and Romania, probably in other countries as well) is still able to exert enough pressure upon the local governments and so, a soft form of religious discrimination, that favours the Orthodox is still in place.
That's why these countries get reprimanded every year by the US Department of State.
A church that enjoys too much socio-political power becomes corrupt, and leads to the resentment of the faithful who understandably start looking elsewhere
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« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2010, 08:15:07 PM »

Shameful. Impersonating Orthodox Clerics should be illegal. Freedom of religion does not cover being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this may sound extreme but what would happen if they dressed like the local police?

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.
No Way! This only turns people away from the Church!

What would turn people away from the Church?
actually that keeps people into the Church, maintains social cohesion etc; it has been like that throughout most of our history; there would be no Orthodox country/society had we subscribed to the idea that a free religious market is a good thing.
Religious freedom for all sects will do the Orthodox churches no good where they form the religious establishment; it might bring in some converts elsewhere, but at home, it will drive people away from the Church.
Fortunately the Church (in Greece, Russia and Romania, probably in other countries as well) is still able to exert enough pressure upon the local governments and so, a soft form of religious discrimination, that favours the Orthodox is still in place.
That's why these countries get reprimanded every year by the US Department of State.
A church that enjoys too much socio-political power becomes corrupt, and leads to the resentment of the faithful who understandably start looking elsewhere

Ideally, the best answer to Protestant missionaries would be to better catechize our own people so that they would not be mislead by such lies as, "the Orthodox discourage reading the Bible", "the Orthodox worship St. Mary", "the rapture is real", et cetera, but unfortunately, due to this predatory practice the Protestants have developed of taking advantage of socio-political and economic calamities in the Orthodox world (not to mention the sneakier stuff, like establishing fifth columns in the EOTC and masquerading as Orthodox clergy in Ethiopia, Georgia, and elsewhere), some governments are forced to extreme measures as a last resort.
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« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2010, 08:26:11 PM »

Ideally, the best answer to Protestant missionaries would be to better catechize our own people so that they would not be mislead by such lies as, "the Orthodox discourage reading the Bible", "the Orthodox worship St. Mary", et cetera,

That really is important and the Oriental Orthodox really need to do that better.  The Armenian Protestants in our area spread the most horrific lies about the Armenian Church, including the ones right above.  The best books and booklets written in response to this stuff is put out by Conciliar Press, which is EO.  I have a lot of their materials at my Church's bookstore.  Unfortunately, it is only in English.  A few years back, Antelias put out something in Armenian to answer a lot of these issues.  It doesn't go into as much depth as the Conciliar Press materials, but it's a start.  The Church really does need to address this more.

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« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2010, 08:26:16 PM »

Yes, the people must desperately be better catechized. So many of the folks in the villages receive little attention from the already over-worked and sometimes not the brightest, parish priest. They have foggy notions about what the rituals mean and simply aren't equipped to combat the smart, snappy "biblical knowledge" of the evangelical missionaries. And often, feeling helpless and frustrated, they lash out at the evangelicals inappropriately, thereby fueling the evangelicals' erroneous opinions about us. I remember hearing this horror story of a village parish priest, who supposedly set fire to the neighbouring village's Baptist pastor's car (which was probably purchased with american dollars and was used to travel from village to village evangelizing the people and thereby, gaining converts). When word of this reached America, you can well imagine the indignation towards the Orthodox which ensued.
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« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2010, 08:38:19 PM »

Ideally, the best answer to Protestant missionaries would be to better catechize our own people so that they would not be mislead by such lies as, "the Orthodox discourage reading the Bible", "the Orthodox worship St. Mary", et cetera,

That really is important and the Oriental Orthodox really need to do that better.  The Armenian Protestants in our area spread the most horrific lies about the Armenian Church, including the ones right above.  The best books and booklets written in response to this stuff is put out by Conciliar Press, which is EO.  I have a lot of their materials at my Church's bookstore.  Unfortunately, it is only in English.  A few years back, Antelias put out something in Armenian to answer a lot of these issues.  It doesn't go into as much depth as the Conciliar Press materials, but it's a start.  The Church really does need to address this more.


The Conciliar Press books are excellent, but might I also recommend His Holiness Pope Shenouda III's books on Comparative Theology?

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/comptheo.pdf
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/pope/#books

I'm also sure that hard copies could be obtained through your local Coptic Orthodox Church bookstore.

Also, two short but thorough EO publications:

1.) Paul O'Callaghan's An Eastern Orthodox Response to Evangelical Claims Light & Life Publishing Company, April 1984. (ISBN 0937032352)

2.) Hierodeacon Gregory's The Church, Tradition, Scripture, Truth and Christian Life: Some Heresies of Evangelicalism and an Orthodox Response Etna, CA: Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, 1995. (ISBN 091116524X)

And one of my personal favorites:

St. Theophan the Recluse's Preaching Another Christ: An Orthodox View of Evangelicalism Orthodox Witness, 2001. (ISBN B0006RY0P8)

http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=PREA107

Edit: Salpy, a few years back, didn't you mention some Protestants infiltrating Bible studies at your church and trying to lead people astray?  Whatever happened with that?
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« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2010, 08:49:24 PM »

Edit: Salpy, a few years back, didn't you mention some Protestants infiltrating Bible studies at your church and trying to lead people astray?  Whatever happened with that?

Actually, it was the Sunday School.  When our priest became fully aware of what was going on, he got rid of them.
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« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2010, 11:06:41 PM »

The website for the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia is here: http://www.ebcgeorgia.org/
I have no words.

The most informative section of the website is the news archives. I highly recommend going through them and seeing the kind of garbage they are teaching and the confusion they are sowing.

Edit: Salpy, a few years back, didn't you mention some Protestants infiltrating Bible studies at your church and trying to lead people astray?  Whatever happened with that?
Actually, it was the Sunday School.  When our priest became fully aware of what was going on, he got rid of them.

Between those people following that unity woman quack prophetess and these Protestant infiltrators, it seems like your community can't catch a break. If it isn't the Turks killing you, then it's the wolves in sheep's clothing.
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« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2010, 11:13:59 PM »

The website for the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia is here: http://www.ebcgeorgia.org/

I have no words.

I have a few.  Anyone who attempts to convert the Orthodox are agents of the devil, whether they know it or not.  Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2010, 01:54:09 PM »

The website for the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia is here: http://www.ebcgeorgia.org/

I have no words.

I have a few.  Anyone who attempts to convert the Orthodox are agents of the devil, whether they know it or not.  Lord have mercy!

I agree. Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2010, 02:05:00 PM »

The website for the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia is here: http://www.ebcgeorgia.org/

I have no words.

I have a few.  Anyone who attempts to convert the Orthodox are agents of the devil, whether they know it or not.  Lord have mercy!

I agree. Lord have mercy!

Amen and amen!  Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2010, 08:58:45 PM »

According to this thread at the forum "Ship of Fools"  http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=007414, they are not really trying to be deceptive but "have to dress that way in order to be taken seriously as ministers of religion" in Russia.

Don't know how true that is but it is another viewpoint.
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« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2010, 09:51:07 PM »

Just remember that Satan, the Father of Lies, has been attacking the Orthodox Church for 2000 years via the Ceasars, Muslims, Communists, and now mostly genuine and well-intentioned Protestants. As far as the last to be mentioned invite them to hear your faith, which should gel with the Orthodox Church's teaching. For those who have ears to hear, LET THEM HEAR!!!
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« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2010, 11:18:55 PM »

According to this thread at the forum "Ship of Fools"  http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=007414, they are not really trying to be deceptive but "have to dress that way in order to be taken seriously as ministers of religion" in Russia.

Don't know how true that is but it is another viewpoint.

Sounds like a smokescreen to me, especially in light of people like Sunday Adelaja operating in the open in the Ukraine, Russia, and other places in the region right out in the open, and probably with greater success than most of these espionage types.  He's as guilty as the rest in terms of proselytizing (and he's been involved in some shady financial dealings), but at least he makes no bones about being exactly what he is.

Just remember that Satan, the Father of Lies, has been attacking the Orthodox Church for 2000 years via the Ceasars, Muslims, Communists, and now mostly genuine and well-intentioned Protestants. As far as the last to be mentioned invite them to hear your faith, which should gel with the Orthodox Church's teaching. For those who have ears to hear, LET THEM HEAR!!!

Of course I agree that none of Satan's attacks shall succeed against the Church, including this one, but I don't know that I'd agree with the "well intentioned" part.  I can't believe that the people who write the things I've read about Orthodoxy in Charisma, or the people who masquerade as priests, or infiltrate Sunday schools, are anything but surreptitious.  Ye shall know them by their fruits.  One look at the havoc they've caused in the Church of India, rending the community established by St. Thomas into pieces, and what they've done in Ethiopia, establishing a fifth column within the Church like a cancer, tells me all I need to know.  May God preserve His flock against the wolves.
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« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2010, 11:37:56 PM »

According to this thread at the forum "Ship of Fools"  http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=007414, they are not really trying to be deceptive but "have to dress that way in order to be taken seriously as ministers of religion" in Russia.

Don't know how true that is but it is another viewpoint.

Sounds like a smokescreen to me, especially in light of people like Sunday Adelaja operating in the open in the Ukraine, Russia, and other places in the region right out in the open, and probably with greater success than most of these espionage types.  He's as guilty as the rest in terms of proselytizing (and he's been involved in some shady financial dealings), but at least he makes no bones about being exactly what he is.

Just remember that Satan, the Father of Lies, has been attacking the Orthodox Church for 2000 years via the Ceasars, Muslims, Communists, and now mostly genuine and well-intentioned Protestants. As far as the last to be mentioned invite them to hear your faith, which should gel with the Orthodox Church's teaching. For those who have ears to hear, LET THEM HEAR!!!

Of course I agree that none of Satan's attacks shall succeed against the Church, including this one, but I don't know that I'd agree with the "well intentioned" part.  I can't believe that the people who write the things I've read about Orthodoxy in Charisma, or the people who masquerade as priests, or infiltrate Sunday schools, are anything but surreptitious.  Ye shall know them by their fruits.  One look at the havoc they've caused in the Church of India, rending the community established by St. Thomas into pieces, and what they've done in Ethiopia, establishing a fifth column within the Church like a cancer, tells me all I need to know.  May God preserve His flock against the wolves.

American Evangelicals go bats over any concept of specially dressed clergy--I've heard them mock the robes of priests together. It is the most unchristian speech imaginable. They are so anti-clerical, it is beyond belief. The fact that they are willing to become de facto priests for the sake of missionizing shows how corrupt their minds have become: they are willing to become what they disdain for the sake of sheepstealing.

I don't like speaking unkindly of others, and believe me, I know from experiance that most of them are the deceived rather than the deceivers, sometimes very well-intentioned, but I felt that my opinion of the matter had to get thrown out there.
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« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2010, 11:48:25 PM »

I don't see these people as insincere, far from it!  I think they are terribly sincere and that is the most heartrending part about it.  Satan has them in a chokehold and they don't realize it.  Thankfully Our God is a man-loving God and wills that all be saved.  Knowing these facts, we as the Church pray that they be lifted from this delusion in this life or if not here, in the next. BTW, we as Orthodox Christians aren't exempt from Satan's chokehold, it just usually manifests differently. 
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« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2010, 12:05:33 AM »

I don't see these people as insincere, far from it!  I think they are terribly sincere and that is the most heartrending part about it.  Satan has them in a chokehold and they don't realize it.  Thankfully Our God is a man-loving God and wills that all be saved.  Knowing these facts, we as the Church pray that they be lifted from this delusion in this life or if not here, in the next. BTW, we as Orthodox Christians aren't exempt from Satan's chokehold, it just usually manifests differently.  

I'm sure that some are indeed exactly as you describe, but others...well...I have to agree with Rufus' assessment of those who engage in subterfuge.  You can't justify lying and deceit in the name of sincerity or conviction.  And then there are those who are only in it for the tax free money, like T.D. Jakes who refers to Our Lord Jesus as a "product" and his "ministry" as a "brand".  This website is a wealth of information on that score.

http://www.pulpit-pimps.org/

If you don’t believe you are simply a market to these bozos, let me point something out to you. Here is the appeal to advertisers (sponsors) for The ‘Mess 2006. Read it carefully. The original is here (edit: link since removed)

On July 19-22, 2006, we will host our third annual MegaFest event in Atlanta, Georgia.

This event blends two separately successful nationally branded events (Woman, Thou Art Loosed and Man Power) that began in 1992 under the highly regarded T.D. Jakes brand. MegaFest also includes two youth components: MegaLand for children ages 5-12, and the MegaYouth Experience component for ages 13-21. T.D. Jakes branded-events have set attendance and economic records around the country including breaking the single event attendance record of 90,000 at the Georgia Dome. Previous T.D. Jakes branded events in Atlanta have grossed over $500,000 million for the local economy over the past three-years. The Atlanta Convention and Visitors Bureau stated that the amount was significantly more than the past three Atlanta-based Super Bowl events that totaled just $250 million.

This high-profile four-day, three-night festival receives national attention and will feature something for the entire family including: indoor/outdoor entertainment by Grammy award winning artists, comedy, spiritual enrichment, a separate youth, women’s and men’s component, a Celebrity breakfast, a Celebrity Golf tournament, sports and recreational activities, and a series of seminars and workshops that cover personal finance, relationships, home ownership, health and nutrition, and much, much more!

Our inaugural event attracted over 140,000 attendees daily from a multicultural audience that included families of with various incomes, over 20,000 teenagers and children, professionals, entrepreneurs, and a strong group of upwardly mobile and affluent individuals.

Are you ready to be a part of the MegaFest Experience???

I should point out that the terms he uses are those of the marketing world. Notice he refers to “Woman, Thou Art Loosed” and “ManPower” as national brandings. I thought these were spiritual events that will change your life forever. Now I come to find out they are national brandings.

He speaks of his activities, when talking to the advertisers, not as an anointed ministry. That’s the phraseology he uses when he’s talking to the marks. No, in actuality, according to Jakes, his “ministry” is a branding.

He goes on to describe the marketing accomplishments of the past MessMess conventions.

1.They grossed over $500 million for the local area
2.They broke the single event attendance record for the Georgia Dome
3.Features Grammy winning entertainment
4.Features a celebrity breakfast and golf tournament
5.Attracted 140,000 people the first time
6.Attracted 20,000 teens
7.Attracts affluent and upwardly mobile individuals
8.It receives nation attention

One of my favorite political commentators has said that if you want to know the motivation a person has for doing something, just follow the money. This little love letter to the potential sponsors seems to provide a really good money trail. You can say “It costs money to put on a quality program.’” But what, exactly, is the program when you have people whose behavior is indistinguishable from the unsaved, teaching, preaching, and entertaining?

I can almost picture T. Dexter in the role of jungle guide, directing the big game hunters to the herd of elephants. Instead actually ministering to the alleged saints, T. Dexter is gathering them all in one place, crying Havoc, and letting loose the dogs of commerce. (I always wanted to use that phrase in a sentence.)

I’ve told you time and again that T. Dexter, John Jenkins, and the rest do not see you as a ministry. They simply see you as a market and a stepping stone. Aren’t you tired of being stepped on?

Posted by Melvin Jones on Monday, July 10th, 2006 at 11:34 am.

 
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« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2010, 12:11:04 AM »

Oh, I agree with you.  My favorite is the televangelist who sends people manna in a cute little package if they send him money.  If you eat the manna you will be healed.  Or the guy who sends people magical green hankerchiefs.  On a more serious note, a friend of mine was telling me about the spiritual, social, and financial destruction many of these supposed Protestant ministers are doing in Africa.  Benny Hinn gets to sit on gold toilet seats thanks to the poor of India and Africa.  Sad
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« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2010, 12:31:35 AM »

Oh, I agree with you.  My favorite is the televangelist who sends people manna in a cute little package if they send him money.  If you eat the manna you will be healed.  Or the guy who sends people magical green hankerchiefs.  On a more serious note, a friend of mine was telling me about the spiritual, social, and financial destruction many of these supposed Protestant ministers are doing in Africa.  Benny Hinn gets to sit on gold toilet seats thanks to the poor of India and Africa.  Sad

I can't find the clip online anymore (it used to be on someone's blog...I should've saved it!) , but did you ever see the one where some local South African preacher called Hinn out at one of his "events" down there?  The guy stood up and challenged him, and accused him of taking money from the poor just as you've described.  Hinn blew up and started railing at the guy, warning him that with the same power by which he blesses, he can also curse, and that he'd call God's wrath down on the guy and his ministry.  I wish I would've saved it to my HD.  I'm glad I saved that T.D. Jakes one above, 'cause that's gone now too, but check that http://www.pulpit-pimps.org/ website whenever you get a chance.  It's written by a guy who happens to be one of the sincere Protestants you were talking about, who feels it's his duty to pull the covers back on the charlatans within his own confession.
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« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2010, 12:57:40 AM »

Like St. Paul said, i believe or was it St. Peter ,someone was given completely to Satan so that person can save his soul...
May be these nominal orthodox that convert to other faiths have to experience the whole Gamut ,of these other faiths,
until they finally realize that the Holy Orthodox Church the Ark of Salvation was where they truly belonged...
It's a circle they have to complete....  My worth
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« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2010, 01:08:45 AM »

Oh, I agree with you.  My favorite is the televangelist who sends people manna in a cute little package if they send him money.  If you eat the manna you will be healed.  Or the guy who sends people magical green hankerchiefs.  On a more serious note, a friend of mine was telling me about the spiritual, social, and financial destruction many of these supposed Protestant ministers are doing in Africa.  Benny Hinn gets to sit on gold toilet seats thanks to the poor of India and Africa.  Sad

I can't find the clip online anymore (it used to be on someone's blog...I should've saved it!) , but did you ever see the one where some local South African preacher called Hinn out at one of his "events" down there?  The guy stood up and challenged him, and accused him of taking money from the poor just as you've described.  Hinn blew up and started railing at the guy, warning him that with the same power by which he blesses, he can also curse, and that he'd call God's wrath down on the guy and his ministry.  I wish I would've saved it to my HD.  I'm glad I saved that T.D. Jakes one above, 'cause that's gone now too, but check that http://www.pulpit-pimps.org/ website whenever you get a chance.  It's written by a guy who happens to be one of the sincere Protestants you were talking about, who feels it's his duty to pull the covers back on the charlatans within his own confession.

Wow, I've never seen that clip about Benny Hinn!  Amazing!  And thanks for the link to Pulpit Pimps.  I'll take a gander at it.
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« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2010, 07:00:32 AM »

I don't see these people as insincere, far from it!  I think they are terribly sincere and that is the most heartrending part about it.  Satan has them in a chokehold and they don't realize it.  Thankfully Our God is a man-loving God and wills that all be saved.  Knowing these facts, we as the Church pray that they be lifted from this delusion in this life or if not here, in the next. BTW, we as Orthodox Christians aren't exempt from Satan's chokehold, it just usually manifests differently. 
How would you say Satan has gotten a hold on the OC?
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« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2010, 09:35:04 AM »

The only thing I know about Protestant missionaries among the Orthodox is that they helped save my great grandmother's life during the Armenian genocide. I am grateful for that. They may not have been right to convert Christians to Christianity instead of others to Christianity, but I can see how God used them.  I will agree whole heartedly though that dishonest tactics should not be used in evangelism.
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« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2010, 11:24:01 AM »

Anastasia1, yes, it is good to be reminded that there are good, honest, truly Christian Protestants out there too.   "Protestants" are not a monolithic group, there are good as well as bad ones out there. Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2010, 12:22:05 PM »

The only thing I know about Protestant missionaries among the Orthodox is that they helped save my great grandmother's life during the Armenian genocide. I am grateful for that. They may not have been right to convert Christians to Christianity instead of others to Christianity, but I can see how God used them.  I will agree whole heartedly though that dishonest tactics should not be used in evangelism.

Now that defintely goes in the plus column!
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« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2010, 08:58:46 PM »

The missionaries did save lives during the Genocide.  They also did much to document what happened during that time.
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