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augustin717
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« on: August 14, 2010, 03:41:40 PM »

These American missionaries in the East have always had a pernicious effect wherever they passed through, trying to convert people to their Victorian bourgeois, Puritanical sensibilities.




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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 05:00:42 PM »

These American missionaries in the East have always had a pernicious effect wherever they passed through, trying to convert people to their Victorian bourgeois, Puritanical sensibilities.

Amen and amen!  Aptly described, Augustin!  If these Puritanical "missionaries" are indeed the root of any of the customs of my beloved Coptic Church I find that absolutely disgusting. Angry

I think I'll go and have a Guiness, and what comes out of me later I'll dedicate to the memory of the heretic imperialist invader Lansing.
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 06:22:04 PM »

Man, I was reading the accounts of the Presbyterian missionaries among the Nestorians-they are available on-line- the amount of do-goody snobbery and superior "white man's burden" affectation it's outrageous. Plus their constant obsessing over "spiritual/inner evidence of change/new birth" amounts to something close to spiritual voyeurism/masturbation, depending on the circumstances.
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2010, 06:33:42 PM »

Man, I was reading the accounts of the Presbyterian missionaries among the Nestorians-they are available on-line- the amount of do-goody snobbery and superior "white man's burden" affectation it's outrageous. Plus their constant obsessing over "spiritual/inner evidence of change/new birth" amounts to something close to spiritual voyeurism/masturbation, depending on the circumstances.

 Shocked Cheesy

Could you please provide a link, augustin? This sounds fascinating. Just so as to help me "unlearn" all the wrong things I was unfortunately taught...
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2010, 10:42:55 PM »

Man, I was reading the accounts of the Presbyterian missionaries among the Nestorians-they are available on-line- the amount of do-goody snobbery and superior "white man's burden" affectation it's outrageous. Plus their constant obsessing over "spiritual/inner evidence of change/new birth" amounts to something close to spiritual voyeurism/masturbation, depending on the circumstances.

I just threw up a little in my mouth. 

You're assessment is dead on, not to mention the fact that they're also usually cowards.  I've read some similar accounts myself of their "missions" in the Middle East and the Balkans (during the Ottoman period), where they go over there ostensibly to convert Muslims, find out they'll end up dead by doing so, and end up targeting the Orthodox, often with the Sultan's support.  'Cause that's the way the Apostles did it, right boys?  Whenever they were faced with the proposition of death for preaching the Gospel, they always punked out, right?  That's why most of them lived such long lives.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 09:45:13 AM »

I think people are being to hard on Protestants here. Though I drink I can think of no harm done by abstinence from alcohol.
In recent history many Protestant missionaries have preached the Gospel to non-Christians and shed their own blood for doing so.
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 10:27:42 AM »

Nevertheless, their attempts to "evangelize" the Orthodox were and are exactly as we've described.  The idea that any Calvinist conceptions of what constitutes "morality" have crept into any of the ancient churches of the East is nauseating.
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2010, 11:22:23 AM »

One can never be too hard on the hydra-like heresy of Protestantism.
and I beg to differ, but what they preached was not the Gospel, but different heresies.
They have been working-they still are-against various Eastern Churches ever since the 19th century, at least.
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2010, 12:02:37 PM »

Augustin,
I have 3 points.
1) You identify yourself as "nominal" Can you please explain how you feel targeted by Presbyterian criticism of Orthodoxy? Is nonchalance any better than "heresy"?
2) You call yourself a phyletist. Do you really believe your country or ethnicity should reflect your relationship with Christ and your brethren?
3) I stand by my original statement. To their credit, Protestants do use their vast wealth to try to make disciples of all nations.

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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2010, 12:08:37 PM »

"Nominalism" (whatever that is, as I use it rather ironically) is definitely better, in my opinion, than "sincere, heartfelt" heresy.
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 12:19:36 PM »

I would also say that "nominal heresy" is probably better than sincere heresy Wink
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 12:24:29 PM »

I would also say that "nominal heresy" is probably better than sincere heresy Wink
I disagree. Read Romans 10.
Somebody trukly and earnestly searching for Truth is much more likely to meet Christ than someone who considers spirituality as just another slice of life.
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 12:44:16 PM »

3) I stand by my original statement. To their credit, Protestants do use their vast wealth to try to make disciples of all nations.

Disciples to what?  Bringing the theologically unsophisticated among the Orthodox faithful from The Church to a heretical sect is not fulfilling Our Lord's dictum.  Is taking advantage of the poverty and lack of education in some Orthodox countries a good thing?  Is capitalizing on the fact that the atheistic communists hampered proper theological education among some Orthodox Christians and stealing away those of simple faith by feeding them fallacious arguments a good thing?  Is taking advantage of the fact that simple, oppressed Christians in small villages in Muslim lands are happy to see anyone even carrying a cross a good thing?  Ever read their own descriptions in Charisma magazine of how they go to places that they know are economically depressed and "use their vast wealth" as you say to engage in rice bowl "evangelization" among the Orthodox?  Or "buying" converts in Ethiopia and Romania with farm equipment, as in this account from an older thread on these boards:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5313.0.html

I agree, I didn't know this sort of thing was happening in Ethiopia, but it doesn't surprise me. I've seen the same things happening in Romania, predominantly with American Pentecostals (but also Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons - it almost never seems to be main stream Protestants) coming in and buying converts with such things as modern tractors and the like (I used to work in a very rural area near the border with the Ukraine).

Understandably, the people who convert to such churches are considered money-grubbing fake Christians and shunned by their Orthodox neighbours. This is particularly true in the villages where the church is usually the centre of everything. The fact that many of them also act as though they're part of some religious maffia also doesn't help. Whenever I've seen their outrage at the way they've been treated by the Orthodox I usually end up laughing - they usually treat the Orthodox far worse than they are treated by them.

Their missionaries also tend to be extremely ignorant. Have any of you ever seen anything so ridiculous as a missionary T-shirt with 'Preaching the Gospel where it has never been heard' printed above a picture of an Orthodox cathedral? I, unfortunately, have!

James


Go to their "Voice of the Martyrs" website (http://www.persecution.net/), which is supposed to report on Christans being persecuted around the world, and enter the words "Orthodox Church" in their search engine. Instead of reading about the Copts or the Syrians being persecuted by the Muslims, most of the articles that pop up cast the Orthodox Church in the role of the persecutor, whether it be in Russia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, or elsewhere. Most of the articles also slander the Church, accusing it of idolatry, witchcraft, and the like.  If what these snake oil salesmen are doing in the Orthodox world is "making disciples of all nations", then so was the work of Arius.
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 01:56:06 PM »

3) I stand by my original statement. To their credit, Protestants do use their vast wealth to try to make disciples of all nations.

Disciples to what?  Bringing the theologically unsophisticated among the Orthodox faithful from The Church to a heretical sect is not fulfilling Our Lord's dictum.  Is taking advantage of the poverty and lack of education in some Orthodox countries a good thing?  Is capitalizing on the fact that the atheistic communists hampered proper theological education among some Orthodox Christians and stealing away those of simple faith by feeding them fallacious arguments a good thing?  Is taking advantage of the fact that simple, oppressed Christians in small villages in Muslim lands are happy to see anyone even carrying a cross a good thing?  Ever read their own descriptions in Charisma magazine of how they go to places that they know are economically depressed and "use their vast wealth" as you say to engage in rice bowl "evangelization" among the Orthodox?  Or "buying" converts in Ethiopia and Romania with farm equipment, as in this account from an older thread on these boards:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5313.0.html

I agree, I didn't know this sort of thing was happening in Ethiopia, but it doesn't surprise me. I've seen the same things happening in Romania, predominantly with American Pentecostals (but also Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons - it almost never seems to be main stream Protestants) coming in and buying converts with such things as modern tractors and the like (I used to work in a very rural area near the border with the Ukraine).

Understandably, the people who convert to such churches are considered money-grubbing fake Christians and shunned by their Orthodox neighbours. This is particularly true in the villages where the church is usually the centre of everything. The fact that many of them also act as though they're part of some religious maffia also doesn't help. Whenever I've seen their outrage at the way they've been treated by the Orthodox I usually end up laughing - they usually treat the Orthodox far worse than they are treated by them.

Their missionaries also tend to be extremely ignorant. Have any of you ever seen anything so ridiculous as a missionary T-shirt with 'Preaching the Gospel where it has never been heard' printed above a picture of an Orthodox cathedral? I, unfortunately, have!

James


Go to their "Voice of the Martyrs" website (http://www.persecution.net/), which is supposed to report on Christans being persecuted around the world, and enter the words "Orthodox Church" in their search engine. Instead of reading about the Copts or the Syrians being persecuted by the Muslims, most of the articles that pop up cast the Orthodox Church in the role of the persecutor, whether it be in Russia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, or elsewhere. Most of the articles also slander the Church, accusing it of idolatry, witchcraft, and the like.  If what these snake oil salesmen are doing in the Orthodox world is "making disciples of all nations", then so was the work of Arius.

I have read VOTM website in the past, and yes there is some of what you say. However I have also seen statements admitting to the suffering by us 'Idolatrous' Orthodox Christians.

Regarding my mention of wealth, I did not mean it was OK to "buy" converts, but to use the money they have to send people abroad to live among the peasantry and yes feed them (God Forbid an American dare feed a starving child!). Would you rather they spend the money on a food court or weight room?
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 02:34:04 PM »

They are not doing anything beneficial to the Church.
They are working against it, in fact.
I've seen and heard them in Romania calling us "idolatrous" and telling us we were so poor compared to the well to do Protestant nations because we were "baptized as infants, and worshiping idols".
I wanted to beat the s**t out of that Southern Baptist pastor. They have lost all respect with me.
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2010, 02:46:55 PM »

They are not doing anything beneficial to the Church.
They are working against it, in fact.
I've seen and heard them in Romania calling us "idolatrous" and telling us we were so poor compared to the well to do Protestant nations because we were "baptized as infants, and worshiping idols".
I wanted to beat the s**t out of that Southern Baptist pastor. They have lost all respect with me.
Don't assume that people who make such comments are indicative of the SBC.
We in the West definitely worship idols, so his comments are weak at best
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2010, 04:56:36 PM »

If I can make a defense of the missionaries in Egypt (both Protestant & Catholic), they created many excellent schools to help all Egyptians, Copts and Moslems.  And they forced the Coptic Church to awaken from its slumber and reform itself. We are fortunate to be living through a Coptic renaissance of sorts currently and I think the end result was good thing overall.

OK, now back to my shisha...I kid, I kid  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2010, 05:03:10 PM »

My concern, having read the correspondence of those Protestant missionaries who established schools in Egypt, was that their aim was entirely and explicitly to subvert the Coptic Orthodox tradition and Protestantise the Church through the education of the youth. The correspondence has been published and this was the plan.

I think that there are many who see that there have been and continue to be negative effects on the Coptic Church through these Protestant and Catholic influences.

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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2010, 05:35:28 PM »

I'm hopeful the Church will come out strong from these influences...with the dawn of availability of Church fathers for all to read and understand, I believe one can't truly in good conscience remain a Protestant (even if it be creating a counterfeit Orthodoxesk church) unless he/she continues to live in denial.
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2010, 05:35:37 PM »

Indeed, Fr. Peter. That was their intention and it was very successful at first. And as AN posted earlier they also would bribe people with various gifts for converting.

But, overall, I do think God used them for good and all this eventually helped the Coptic Church. 

An anectoctal story for you. There was a time where there was no Coptic Sunday School program and parents who wanted thier children to learn the Holy Bible would send them to the Protestant Sunday Schools after the Liturgy.  Fast forward a few generations and you have my mother who although raised Protestant would after thier church service go the nearby Coptic Church for Sunday School because it was "much better".

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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2010, 05:39:46 PM »



An anectoctal story for you. There was a time where there was no Coptic Sunday School program and parents who wanted thier children to learn the Holy Bible would send them to the Protestant Sunday Schools after the Liturgy.  Fast forward a few generations and you have my mother who although raised Protestant would after thier church service go the nearby Coptic Church for Sunday School because it was "much better".


Is this what you mean by The Coptic church experiencing a renaissance?
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2010, 05:45:59 PM »

I'm hopeful the Church will come out strong from these influences...with the dawn of availability of Church fathers for all to read and understand, I believe one can't truly in good conscience remain a Protestant (even if it be creating a false Orthodoxesk church) unless he/she continues to live in denial.

The Protestants I know read the Church Fathers very selectively; almost to just confirm thier beliefs with blinders to the rest, but its definitely a start.
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2010, 05:54:25 PM »


I have read VOTM website in the past, and yes there is some of what you say. However I have also seen statements admitting to the suffering by us 'Idolatrous' Orthodox Christians.

Regarding my mention of wealth, I did not mean it was OK to "buy" converts, but to use the money they have to send people abroad to live among the peasantry and yes feed them (God Forbid an American dare feed a starving child!). Would you rather they spend the money on a food court or weight room?

Here and there, the so-called "Voice of the Martyrs" mentions the suffering of the Orthodox, perhaps to maintain the illusion that the magazine is "neutral Christian" instead of indulging in the false "Christian vs. Catholic" dichotomy employed by so many Evangelicals, but by far the lion's share of the articles concerning the Orthodox cast us as Mary worshippers and (in the case of Ethiopia) "witch doctors" "fighting the spirit" (whatever spirit is motivating them to entice souls out of Orthodoxy into heresy is not the Holy Spirit) and oppressing those who have turned heterodox.

As far as them "feeding starving children", if they're interested in doing this in lands that have already been Christian for centuries, they should do so in cooperation with the local Orthodox Church instead of using their wealth to aid in proselytism and endangering souls.

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They are not doing anything beneficial to the Church.
They are working against it, in fact.
I've seen and heard them in Romania calling us "idolatrous" and telling us we were so poor compared to the well to do Protestant nations because we were "baptized as infants, and worshiping idols".
I wanted to beat the s**t out of that Southern Baptist pastor. They have lost all respect with me.

Amen.  They indeed do nothing to help the Church, but rather undermine it at every turn.

Don't assume that people who make such comments are indicative of the SBC.
We in the West definitely worship idols, so his comments are weak at best

It's not unreasonable to assume in this case that by "idols" he meant the Blessed Virgin, the saints, icons, and kissing the hands of priests, which really seems to get their goat.

If I can make a defense of the missionaries in Egypt (both Protestant & Catholic), they created many excellent schools to help all Egyptians, Copts and Moslems.  And they forced the Coptic Church to awaken from its slumber and reform itself. We are fortunate to be living through a Coptic renaissance of sorts currently and I think the end result was good thing overall.

OK, now back to my shisha...I kid, I kid  Grin

If you mean reform as in the way the Coptic Church began to revitalize itself and educate the faithful as to our own theology so that they won’t succumb to imported Western heresies, great, but if you mean incorporating any Protestant dogmas, or even elements of what they consider to be “Christian morality” apart from the established traditions of the Church (such as abstention from alcohol) than I must disagree with this being anything of value at all.

My concern, having read the correspondence of those Protestant missionaries who established schools in Egypt, was that their aim was entirely and explicitly to subvert the Coptic Orthodox tradition and Protestantise the Church through the education of the youth. The correspondence has been published and this was the plan.

I think that there are many who see that there have been and continue to be negative effects on the Coptic Church through these Protestant and Catholic influences.

Father Peter

This is 100% correct, Father.  It is worse in the case of the Ethiopian Church, in which they established a fifth-column group called the Tahadisso, with the objective of “reforming” (read: Protestantizing) the Ethiopian Church from the inside out, through Sunday Schools, having men with Protestant leanings ordained to the diaconate and priesthood, et cetera.  Such sneaky subversion is characteristic of Satan, not of Christ, and it has caused great havoc in the EOTC.

I'm hopeful the Church will come out strong from these influences...with the dawn of availability of Church fathers for all to read and understand, I believe one can't truly in good conscience remain a Protestant (even if it be creating a counterfeit Orthodoxesk church) unless he/she continues to live in denial.

Amen and amen.  We need to educate our faithful so that they can avoid the snares of the wolf of souls and his acolytes.


Indeed, Fr. Peter. That was their intention and it was very successful at first. And as AN posted earlier they also would bribe people with various gifts for converting.

But, overall, I do think God used them for good and all this eventually helped the Coptic Church. 

An anectoctal story for you. There was a time where there was no Coptic Sunday School program and parents who wanted thier children to learn the Holy Bible would send them to the Protestant Sunday Schools after the Liturgy.  Fast forward a few generations and you have my mother who although raised Protestant would after thier church service go the nearby Coptic Church for Sunday School because it was "much better".


Our Lord often uses for good what the wolf of souls intends for evil,  but this doesn’t justify their attempts to proselytize among the Orthodox.
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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2010, 05:54:49 PM »

I'm hopeful the Church will come out strong from these influences...with the dawn of availability of Church fathers for all to read and understand, I believe one can't truly in good conscience remain a Protestant (even if it be creating a false Orthodoxesk church) unless he/she continues to live in denial.

The Protestants I know read the Church Fathers very selectively; almost to just confirm thier beliefs with blinders to the rest, but its definitely a start.
From what I see on places like youtube, very selectively indeed.
Protestants don't really 'teach heresy' rather deny truth ( for Baptists and Presbyterians real Prescence)
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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2010, 06:04:21 PM »


Is this what you mean by The Coptic church experiencing a renaissance?

Yes, I think the Sunday School movement was critical part of this "renaissance". It nurtured the future leaders of the Church including HH Pope Shenouda and led to the Monastic resurgence.

Here's a good overview if you're interested:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Cmey73GtfuUC&lpg=PP1&ots=KlEn5FLAVA&dq=two%20thousand%20years%20of%20coptic%20christianity&pg=PA93#v=onepage
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2010, 06:07:48 PM »

The great Archdeacon Habib Guirguis (who I believe should be canonized a saint in our Church) was the founder of the Sunday School movement in the Coptic Church.  My grandfather was very much influenced by him and attended many of his sermons, and helped form a Sunday School program where people like HH Pope Shenouda and HG the late Bishop Gregorios were part of.
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2010, 06:15:08 PM »

As far as them "feeding starving children", if they're interested in doing this in lands that have already been Christian for centuries, they should do so in cooperation with the local Orthodox Church instead of using their wealth to aid in proselytism and endangering souls.

"You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever.”

Archimandite (Metropolitan) Philaret, of blessed memory (+1985)
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx

Don't get me wrong AN, I agree 100%!

If I can make a defense of the missionaries in Egypt (both Protestant & Catholic), they created many excellent schools to help all Egyptians, Copts and Moslems.  And they forced the Coptic Church to awaken from its slumber and reform itself. We are fortunate to be living through a Coptic renaissance of sorts currently and I think the end result was good thing overall.

OK, now back to my shisha...I kid, I kid  Grin

If you mean reform as in the way the Coptic Church began to revitalize itself and educate the faithful as to our own theology so that they won’t succumb to imported Western heresies, great, but if you mean incorporating any Protestant dogmas, or even elements of what they consider to be “Christian morality” apart from the established traditions of the Church (such as abstention from alcohol) than I must disagree with this being anything of value at all.

[/quote]

I knew i'd get in trouble by using the word, "reform". Yes, of course I meant the former, brother!
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2010, 06:40:30 PM »

The great Archdeacon Habib Guirguis (who I believe should be canonized a saint in our Church) was the founder of the Sunday School movement in the Coptic Church. 

I wholeheartedly agree!
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2010, 06:51:41 PM »

Protestants don't really 'teach heresy' rather deny truth ( for Baptists and Presbyterians real Prescence)

That's an interesting statement, you've really hit on something for me. Thanks!
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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2010, 07:16:30 PM »

Protestants don't really 'teach heresy' rather deny truth ( for Baptists and Presbyterians real Prescence)

I understand what you mean about denying the truth (sola scriptura, lack of priesthood, denial of the Holy Mysteries in some churches, et cetera) but the Protestants actively teach heresy as well:

For example, Presbyterians (being rooted in the theology of Calvin, perhaps the most destructive heretic in the history of the Christian religion) teach such heresies as Predestination and that Jesus Christ died only for “the elect” not for all mankind.

With Baptists, the list gets even longer, and longer still when we get into Pentecostals and Charismatics.
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2010, 07:41:17 PM »

I think people are being to hard on Protestants here. Though I drink I can think of no harm done by abstinence from alcohol.
In recent history many Protestant missionaries have preached the Gospel to non-Christians and shed their own blood for doing so.

But it is not necessary for salvation to abstain from alcohol as many of these Protestant missionaries believe.  Also, though many Protestant missionaries have died for their cause, many of them continually to pursue Orthodox Christians (both Eastern and Oriental) and convert them away from the true faith. Most Protestant missionaries target people who are already Christians rather than go to places where Christianity has not been preached or has been made illegal like in some parts of the Middle East, Asia and Saharan Africa.
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2010, 07:45:24 PM »

My concern, having read the correspondence of those Protestant missionaries who established schools in Egypt, was that their aim was entirely and explicitly to subvert the Coptic Orthodox tradition and Protestantise the Church through the education of the youth. The correspondence has been published and this was the plan.

I think that there are many who see that there have been and continue to be negative effects on the Coptic Church through these Protestant and Catholic influences.

Father Peter

Indeed, that was the experience of my grandfather's village in Eastern Turkey.  The Protestant missionaries came to his village when my grandfather's father was a boy.  The Protestants came and built a school where there previously had been none.  My great, great grandfather went to enroll his son and the director of the school told him that he had to leave the Armenian Church and become Protestant before his son could be enrolled. 

Not only did he refuse to enroll his son, but he used his resources to build a school for those who, like him, refused to leave the Armenian Church.  The Armenian Patriarch of Istanbul rewarded him by sending a special letter to him ("gontag") and changing his last name from Baljanian to Parechanian, which means "one who does good."

What gets me is that the missionaries came to Turkey ostensibly to convert the Muslims, but then just proselytized those who were already Christian.  What they did brought divisiveness. 

Moreover, they still use "bribes" to get converts.  A few years ago, a friend of mine wanted to visit Armenia and went along with a Protestant friend of hers who was going on a missionary trip with an Evangelical group.  She was shocked when they were told to only give aid to people who were willing to leave the Armenian Church and convert.  That's not an honest conversion.
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2010, 09:39:47 PM »

Just to throw another hat in the ring on these deceitful tactics that the Protestants use in Eastern Christian lands, I have heard it stated that in Ethiopia the Baptist preachers have started dressing up like Orthodox priests so that the people will listen to them. They had too many problems with the common people not trusting them because they weren't Ethiopian clergy. To restate what was said above, deceit only has one author, and he is not Christ.

Likewise, in Georgia the baptists lure in people with a familiar looking pastor, all in the name of "cultural relevancy."





This situation was discussed previously in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23209.0.html

The website for the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia is here: http://www.ebcgeorgia.org/
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2010, 09:59:45 PM »

Just to throw another hat in the ring on these deceitful tactics that the Protestants use in Eastern Christian lands, I have heard it stated that in Ethiopia the Baptist preachers have started dressing up like Orthodox priests so that the people will listen to them. They had too many problems with the common people not trusting them because they weren't Ethiopian clergy. To restate what was said above, deceit only has one author, and he is not Christ.

Likewise, in Georgia the baptists lure in people with a familiar looking pastor, all in the name of "cultural relevancy."





This situation was discussed previously in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23209.0.html

The website for the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia is here: http://www.ebcgeorgia.org/

UNREAL  Shocked
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2010, 10:10:11 PM »

Indeed, that was the experience of my grandfather's village in Eastern Turkey.  The Protestant missionaries came to his village when my grandfather's father was a boy.  The Protestants came and built a school where there previously had been none.  My great, great grandfather went to enroll his son and the director of the school told him that he had to leave the Armenian Church and become Protestant before his son could be enrolled. 

Not only did he refuse to enroll his son, but he used his resources to build a school for those who, like him, refused to leave the Armenian Church.  The Armenian Patriarch of Istanbul rewarded him by sending a special letter to him ("gontag") and changing his last name from Baljanian to Parechanian, which means "one who does good."

That's exactly my point, they catalyzed an event that may not have happened without them. Against their intention, something truly good came out of their efforts.

What gets me is that the missionaries came to Turkey ostensibly to convert the Muslims, but then just proselytized those who were already Christian.  What they did brought divisiveness. 

Moreover, they still use "bribes" to get converts.  A few years ago, a friend of mine wanted to visit Armenia and went along with a Protestant friend of hers who was going on a missionary trip with an Evangelical group.  She was shocked when they were told to only give aid to people who were willing to leave the Armenian Church and convert.  That's not an honest conversion.

Utterley shameful behavior. My father has told me similar stories from growing up in Egypt. The people who did accept this aid were ashamed of themselves but at the time our Church was too poor to do anything. Now we have our own charities to help the needy.
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2010, 10:41:03 PM »

Just to throw another hat in the ring on these deceitful tactics that the Protestants use in Eastern Christian lands, I have heard it stated that in Ethiopia the Baptist preachers have started dressing up like Orthodox priests so that the people will listen to them. They had too many problems with the common people not trusting them because they weren't Ethiopian clergy. To restate what was said above, deceit only has one author, and he is not Christ.

Likewise, in Georgia the baptists lure in people with a familiar looking pastor, all in the name of "cultural relevancy."





This situation was discussed previously in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23209.0.html

The website for the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia is here: http://www.ebcgeorgia.org/

Unbelievable.  This creep with the beard is just the apprentice though.  Here's a picture of his master.



That's exactly my point, they catalyzed an event that may not have happened without them. Against their intention, something truly good came out of their efforts.

At the cost of some poor Coptic families forsaking the Orthodox Church for heresy.  Undecided

Utterley shameful behavior. My father has told me similar stories from growing up in Egypt. The people who did accept this aid were ashamed of themselves but at the time our Church was too poor to do anything. Now we have our own charities to help the needy.

Nothing like kicking an impoverished Christian community when it's down.  WWJD, right?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 10:50:04 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2010, 10:52:05 PM »

What's so devastating, when members of our own clergy have adopted the collar to effectively fit in and not be distinguished as members of the Orthodox clergy?
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2010, 10:54:45 PM »

Shameful. Impersonating Orthodox Clerics should be illegal. Freedom of religion does not cover being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this may sound extreme but what would happen if they dressed like the local police?
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2010, 11:12:14 PM »

I'm sort of glad the protestants are giving the Orthodox Churches competition,If Orthodoxy wants to keep it's faithful, it better fight the good fight till the end, for the salvation of souls...

It will Keep Orthodoxy alert ,from becoming Lax, Lazy ....... Grin
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« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2010, 12:24:22 AM »

Shameful. Impersonating Orthodox Clerics should be illegal. Freedom of religion does not cover being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this may sound extreme but what would happen if they dressed like the local police?

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.
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« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2010, 02:22:33 AM »

I'm sort of glad the protestants are giving the Orthodox Churches competition,If Orthodoxy wants to keep it's faithful, it better fight the good fight till the end, for the salvation of souls...

It will Keep Orthodoxy alert ,from becoming Lax, Lazy ....... Grin


I have to say I second this.

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.

Imagine not-Orthodox countries will reintroduce that.
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« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2010, 07:34:49 AM »

What we suffered and continue to suffer from Protestants has to be seen to be believed.  In addition because the British were the colonial masters, the CMS was given the run of the place.

Much of the correspondence between the missionaries is now online and google books has uploaded many of the old books.  Terrible. 

And by that time many Orthodox had been infected and eventually formed a new reformed church.  Now they are celebrating the 175th anniversary of their reformation in India.
Meanwhile new cults and sects sprout everyday aided by the money and tithes of Americans and Westerners praying for Mission in our "dark land".

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« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2010, 01:54:44 PM »

I'm sort of glad the protestants are giving the Orthodox Churches competition,If Orthodoxy wants to keep it's faithful, it better fight the good fight till the end, for the salvation of souls...

It will Keep Orthodoxy alert ,from becoming Lax, Lazy ....... Grin

More than any other point, this has been my underlying belief as well. Thanks!
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« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2010, 01:56:34 PM »

Shameful. Impersonating Orthodox Clerics should be illegal. Freedom of religion does not cover being a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this may sound extreme but what would happen if they dressed like the local police?

I've never been to Georgia or a traditionally Orthodox country but I don't understand why freedom of religion should even be considered a good thing.  I know it's thought to be in the United States but in a traditionally Orthodox country I think I'd be all for the Orthodox Church being favored.  I don't believe in forced conversions but making it difficult on non-Orthodox religions to gain a foothold or grow- like I hear they do in Russia- I'd be all for.
No Way! This only turns people away from the Church!
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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2010, 02:07:38 PM »

There are Protestants right here in Southern California that use the same dishonest tactics to convert Roman Catholics - even putting statues of Mary and rosaries in their churches!  Of course, in Cardinal Mahoney's L.A. they often look more Catholic than the "real" (i.e. diocesan) churches! laugh
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