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Author Topic: All Orthodox Churches express negative reactions to UGC Patriarchate  (Read 1324 times) Average Rating: 0
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Orthodoc
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« on: February 19, 2004, 10:28:11 AM »

All the Orthodox automonous and autocephallous churches respond negativelly to the establishment of a Greek Catholic Patriarchate in Ukraine.

Their responses can be read at -

http://www.mospat.ru/text/e_news/id/6388.html

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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2004, 10:53:42 AM »

In general I don't understand the tone of the response, which makes it appear as if the the UGCC is being set up for the first time.  The UGCC is being rasied in status not being created where it does not exist.  What is going to change?  In any case I hope the Holy Father ahs the resolve to grant the patriarchal title inspite of these objections.

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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2004, 11:22:04 AM »

[In general I don't understand the tone of the response,]

The response is no different than it would be if the Orthodox started to set up Patriarchates in the capitols of predominately  Roman Catholic countries (which it has never attempted to do).  Adopted all the Roman Catholic forms of worship within the churches of these Patrairchates, and started to tell the people who attend that they are now 'Roman Catholics in communion with the Orthodox Patriarchates.'

If you read the responses, you will find out that this act goes against the agreements which have been made between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholics to date.  Namely (to mention only a few) -

1)  That the Unia IS NOT THE BRIDGE BETWEEN ORTHODOXY AND THE RCC as previously claimed by Rome.
2)  Unity cannot be achieved through proseltyzing of one church against the other.
3)  Unity cannot be achieved through absorption of one church into the other.
4)  Unity cannot be achieved through deceptive means and incorrect terminology.
5)  The ultimate goal for the Unia is to prepare it for its return TO ITS MOTHER PATRIARCHATE  once unity is achieved.  In other words, to disappear.  (How can creating a new mother for it  achieve that goal?)

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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2004, 12:28:50 PM »

Orthodoc,

The Orthodox have and  do setup exarchates and dioceses in predominantly Catholic countries.  Does it matter what they are called?  In fact, if the Orthodox did create an Orthodox Patriarch of Rome I would guess it would be met with no resistance and minimal if any criticism, becasue that is just something the Catholic Church isn't concerned about.

The problem with the Balamand Agreement is that it was a document produced by Latin Catholics and Orthodox, no Eastern Catholics were invited.  On top of that many Eastern Catholic Churches and Orthodox Churches denounced the document and refused to recognize it.  All this is besides the point because this is not creating a new Unia and proselytism is possible whether the UGCC is a Patriarchate or not.  Again why the fuss over what amounts to a name change and a small adjustment in the election of the hierarch, which while important within the Catholic Church, doesn't effect the Orthodox?

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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2004, 01:05:26 PM »

[The Orthodox have and do setup exarchates and dioceses in predominantly Catholic countries. Does it matter what they are called?]

It most certainly does!  The Orthodox do not set up Roman Catholic look alike churches nor do they prey on the  religiously uneducated by using fictious names. or identifying themselves as something the are not.  

[In fact, if the Orthodox did create an Orthodox Patriarch of Rome I would guess it would be met with no resistance and minimal if any criticism, becasue that is just something the Catholic Church isn't concerned about.]

Really!  Then why are they still fuming about the construction of St Katherine's Russian Orthodox Church being built on the grounds of the Russian embassy in Rome because of its proximity to St Peter's  basilica?  And so worried about the fact that its dome may appear to be higher than that of St peter's bcause it is being constructed on a hill?

[The problem with the Balamand Agreement is that it was a document produced by Latin Catholics and Orthodox, no Eastern Catholics were invited.]

Is there any reason why their hand chosen adopted mother couldn't speak on their behalf?  Once one agrees to be 'in communion with Rome'  one also adopts Rome as its mother.   A mother that has the final say on everything whether one leaves the nest or not as long as you recognize her as your mother.  If you are complaining about no Eastern Rite Catholic  participation I suggest you take it up with your adopted mother.

[All this is besides the point because this is not creating a new Unia and proselytism is possible whether the UGCC is a Patriarchate or not.]

Not according to what your adopted mother agreed to on your behalf.  However, your mother has yet to make any agreement with the Orthodox that she didn't break.  If she breaks this one, she can kiss any dialogue or unity between the two churches goodbye.  And we Orthodox seem to be united on this issue.

[Again why the fuss over what amounts to a name change and a small adjustment in the election of the hierarch, which while important within the Catholic Church, doesn't effect the Orthodox? ]

Oh but it affects the Orthodox very much since we are very familiar with the tools that are once again being taken out of the wood shed to once again attempt to undermine the Orthodox Church.  You know the old saying - 'Fool me once, shame on YOU.  Fool me twice, shame on ME!'

Read the last portion of your last two sentences.  Namely -

(and proselytism is possible whether the UGCC is a Patriarchate or not.)  &   (which while important within the Catholic Church, doesn't effect the Orthodox?)

Can you explain how admitted proselytism amongst the Orthodox doesn't affect the Orthodox Church?

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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2004, 02:09:10 PM »

"It most certainly does!  The Orthodox do not set up Roman Catholic look alike churches nor do they prey on the  religiously uneducated by using fictious names. or identifying themselves as something the are not."

And how is using the name [Insert Nationality] Greek Catholic Church fictitious or  identifying themselves as something they are not.

"Really!  Then why are they still fuming about the construction of St Katherine's Russian Orthodox Church being built on the grounds of the Russian embassy in Rome because of its proximity to St Peter's  basilica?  And so worried about the fact that its dome may appear to be higher than that of St Peter's bcause it is being constructed on a hill?"

This has nothing to do with what we are talking about.  Besides it was the Italian Culture Ministry that halted construction becuase they didn't want the Roman skyline changed.

"Is there any reason why their hand chosen adopted mother couldn't speak on their behalf?  Once one agrees to be 'in communion with Rome'  one also adopts Rome as its mother.  A mother that has the final say on everything whether one leaves the nest or not as long as you recognize her as your mother.  If you are complaining about no Eastern Rite Catholic  participation I suggest you take it up with your adopted mother."

Do you think if you say that enough times it will become true?  The Sui Iuris Churches of the Catholic Church will interpret their relationship between each other and the Pope, not Orthodoc.  And the reason Eastern Catholics aren't there is becaues the Orthodox refuse to participate if we are there.

Again you descend into irrationality.  Explain how raising the status of the UGCC from major archepiscopate to patriarchate changes anything in regards to the UOC.  Be careful with your words, I did not admit the UGCC proselytizes,  I simply acknowledge you already accuse accuse us of it.  Whether they do or don't is beside the point.  If they do or don't how does being called a patriarchate affect it?  Or is the fear that the UGCC being a patriarchate will cause mass defections from the UOC?  I don't see that happening.

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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2004, 03:23:45 PM »

[And how is using the name [Insert Nationality] Greek Catholic Church fictitious or  identifying themselves as something they are not.]

I just love it when you, as well as others of your back ground, come in here and play the innocent and naive card!  Woud you like to make a bet that the new name will neither have a nationality nor the words 'Greek Catholic' in its new title?  If the Patriarchate goes through, it will simply be known as the Kievan Patriarchate.  The purpose is to prey on the the fierce nationalism, politics, and ethnic hatred the current UGCC as well as the non-canonical Orthodox churches are based on.  But, of course you are already well aware of all this.

[This has nothing to do with what we are talking about.  Besides it was the Italian Culture Ministry that halted construction because they didn't want the Roman skyline changed.]

It most certainly does something to do with what we are talking about since I am replying to your comments regarding the RCC not batting an eyelash  if the Orthodox were to set up an Orthodox Patriarch as the head of a Roman Catholic lookalike church in Rome.  If they complain so much about an Orthodox Church being built, one can just imagine what they would say about a imitation RCC under Orthodox authority!  It was not only the Italian Culture Ministry (reacting from Vatican pressure) that tried to halt the construction, but the Pope of Rome himself who offered the RO a RC church instead.  And, by the way, the construction was not stopped since it is being built on foreign territory (Russian embassy grounds)  where neither the Vatican or the Italian Cultural Ministry have jurisdiction over.

[The Sui Iuris Churches of the Catholic Church will interpret their relationship between each other and the Pope, not Orthodoc. ]

Now if you keep saying that YOU MAY BEGIN TO BELIEVE IT!  When did the sui juris churches receive more authority than the Pope on any matter?  Would you like me to start quoting the canons of the Eastern Christians in union with Rome to prove you  wrong?

[Explain how raising the status of the UGCC from major archepiscopate to patriarchate changes anything in regards to the UOC. ]

I would suggest you reread the replies from ALL the automonous and autocephallous Orthodox Churches once again.  They explain it all quite well.  That why I referenced it in the first place.

[If they do or don't how does being called a patriarchate affect it? ]

I think I already answered that in my initial response.  Again, reread what I wrote.  You do have a tendency to go around in circles.

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