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Shanghaiski
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« on: August 11, 2010, 04:28:07 PM » |
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I have heard of those who are Orthodox and received through Chrismation being baptized afterward because their heterodox baptism was not in the proper form--not triple immersion,and thus the economia of the Chrismation was not correctly applied because it requires both the Trinity and triple immersion. However, I have read of many Orthodox receiving Orthodox baptism without triple immersion, but by pouring or some other method. Do these Orthodox baptisms get corrected later? I know of St. Basil writing that aerobaptisms (in the air because of imminent death or emergency) are corrected later should the baby survive, but do the Fathers say anything about Orthodox baptisms improperly performed and what should be done about them?
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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Michał Kalina
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 04:58:41 PM » |
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The question is: Are Orthodox but non-tripple-immersion baptisms incorrect in any way as the non-Orthodox ones can be?
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 04:59:10 PM by mike »
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.  Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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augustin717
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 05:21:32 PM » |
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Triple pouring equals triple immersion.
All my kin have been baptized like this from times immemorial.
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 05:21:45 PM by augustin717 »
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"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 05:45:09 PM » |
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Triple pouring equals triple immersion.
All my kin have been baptized like this from times immemorial.
Not to question anyone's baptism, but an immersion is to go beneath the surface of a body of water. A pouring is to have a bit of water run over one's body. With pouring, one does not at one point go beneath the surface and then come up above the surface, thus completing the symbolism of burial and resurrection. |
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 06:15:09 PM » |
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Augustin can you elaborate on what you mean by "from time immemorial" as immersion was originally the norm in the Latin west as well.
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augustin717
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 06:16:39 PM » |
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Thanks for clarifying what "immersion" means . I had had no idea.
Now perhaps some zealous American priest can go to places like mine and "correct baptisms" of people that have no memory of having been anything else but Orthodox and have no memory of baptizing differently, either.
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"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".
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augustin717
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 06:19:14 PM » |
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Augustin can you elaborate on what you mean by "from time immemorial" as immersion was originally the norm in the Latin west as well.
Immemorial means that no one, from the eldest to the youngest have any memory or awareness of doing things differently. And, at least where I come from, Uniatism never existed. |
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"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 06:22:50 PM » |
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Thanks for clarifying what "immersion" means . I had had no idea.
Now perhaps some zealous American priest can go to places like mine and "correct baptisms" of people that have no memory of having been anything else but Orthodox and have no memory of baptizing differently, either. I just wanted to say that despite your harsh tone, I really enjoy your perspective, as it gives us a better idea of real Orthodoxy on the ground in the Old World and one which is not so wrapped up in theoretical applications of idealizations. |
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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2010, 06:24:15 PM » |
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May I ask where you come from? Forgive me if that is a rude question.
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Rosehip
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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2010, 06:36:46 PM » |
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augustin, if a romanian baptist or pentecostal decided to convert to Orthodoxy in Romania, would they be received into the church by baptism and chrismation, or only chrismation? How are such cases usually handled?
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 06:37:28 PM by Rosehip »
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+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010. May her memory be eternal! +
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augustin717
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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2010, 06:37:01 PM » |
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May I ask where you come from? Forgive me if that is a rude question.
From here: http://www.episcopiaaradului.ro/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arad_County |
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"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".
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augustin717
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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2010, 06:38:01 PM » |
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augustin, if a romanian baptist or pentacostal decided to convert to Orthodoxy in Romania, would they be received into the church by baptism and chrismation, or only chrismation? How are such cases usually handled?
They are received by baptism always, AFAIK and see. |
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"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".
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Rosehip
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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2010, 06:40:01 PM » |
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augustin, if a romanian baptist or pentacostal decided to convert to Orthodoxy in Romania, would they be received into the church by baptism and chrismation, or only chrismation? How are such cases usually handled?
They are received by baptism always, AFAIK and see. Thanks! |
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+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010. May her memory be eternal! +
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Subdeacon Michael
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2010, 07:00:47 PM » |
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From the Didache: But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize. Having first recited all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water. But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water; and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm. But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able; and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before. From this, it seems that, from earliest times, the Church has practised economy where the ideal could not be had, and that this was accepted as legitimate. So there is no question, it seems to me, about whether true baptism can be performed by pouring. The question is whether this concession to lack of resources/human weakness is to be taken advantage of where there is absolutely nothing preventing the baptism being done fully. This seems a separate, but related, question. |
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Father H
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2010, 01:30:46 PM » |
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It is common among Greeks, for example, to immerse but not submerge. The baby is immersed in the low-filled font 3 times, and the priest cups water up over his head each time.
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LBK
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2010, 07:37:43 PM » |
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It is common among Greeks, for example, to immerse but not submerge. The baby is immersed in the low-filled font 3 times, and the priest cups water up over his head each time.
I wouldn't say "common", Father. In observing Orthodox baptisms over five decades, and including many Greek baptisms, over several jurisdictions, and even countries, I have never seen the practice you describe. All these baptisms involved full immersion, three times. No pouring over the head. |
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Father H
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2010, 10:25:49 PM » |
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It is common among Greeks, for example, to immerse but not submerge. The baby is immersed in the low-filled font 3 times, and the priest cups water up over his head each time. I wouldn't say "common", Father. In observing Orthodox baptisms over five decades, and including many Greek baptisms, over several jurisdictions, and even countries, I have never seen the practice you describe. All these baptisms involved full immersion, three times. No pouring over the head. It really is common. If you would like to see this, just type in Greek Orthodox Baptism into youtube and see how many are of the type that I have described. Here are just a few examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puw6edzo3_0&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GlEuuo9ZJM&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHKQMtWOCbY&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUnN77ApjJw&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oass9mo6nEI&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXY9DP0L7q0&feature=related |
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 10:32:52 PM by FatherHLL »
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