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Author Topic: Catholic and Orthodox: Appeal to Teaching Authority  (Read 10942 times) Average Rating: 5
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #135 on: August 14, 2010, 11:29:09 AM »



The actions of many Orthodox hiearchs toward the Pope already belie this little gem of a prognostication.

There is a belief abroad among the Orthodox that Met Zizioulas and Cardinal Kasper are engaged in an attempt to derail traditional Orthodox ecclesiology - at the last two Plenary Sessions, at Belgrade and Ravenna. We cannot judge what happened last October on Cyprus since there has been no information released - this is because the Orthodox bishops clamped down on the dialogue and are insisting that no statements may be released without synodal approval from the various Orthodox Churches.  Specifically, the concern centres on Met Zizioulas' and Cardinal Kasper's attempt to impose a "Global Protos" or "Universal Primus" on Orthodoxy which will bring Orthodox ecclesiology into line with the Roman and make an eventual union so much easier to accomplish.

It won't fly. It is simply too alien to Orthodox tradition. Those who perceive this have an obligation from above to speak out and not fear such shameful threats as this Metropolitan wrote last year against the bishops of the Church of Greece.  It is to the great credit of the bishops that they are now moving to take control of the dialogue and will not leave it in the hands of a few people with their own agendas.

The awakening of the bishops of Greece before the Cyprus meeting to the Metropolitan's agenda moved them into action and the Metropolitan felt so rattled by their new interest and their statements and their demand for involvement that he actually wrote a letter to the Greek bishops threatening them!!!!

I am not sure where that letter can be read but it will be on

http://www.oodegr.com/

or

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/

The Orthodox bishops are now alert to the threat to authentic Orthodox ecclesiology which the more papally inclined representatives at the bi-lateral dialogue have been quietly fostering. 


Perhaps Met. John will be the "Saint Mark" of the restoration of communion and the ending of the schism...or maybe Metropolitan Hilarion?....

Certainly Orthodoxy does not run on majority rule!!  History shows that. 

Doctrine is set by the minority, or so it appears.

Mary
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« Reply #136 on: August 14, 2010, 11:42:00 AM »



The actions of many Orthodox hiearchs toward the Pope already belie this little gem of a prognostication.

There is a belief abroad among the Orthodox that Met Zizioulas and Cardinal Kasper are engaged in an attempt to derail traditional Orthodox ecclesiology - at the last two Plenary Sessions, at Belgrade and Ravenna. We cannot judge what happened last October on Cyprus since there has been no information released - this is because the Orthodox bishops clamped down on the dialogue and are insisting that no statements may be released without synodal approval from the various Orthodox Churches.  Specifically, the concern centres on Met Zizioulas' and Cardinal Kasper's attempt to impose a "Global Protos" or "Universal Primus" on Orthodoxy which will bring Orthodox ecclesiology into line with the Roman and make an eventual union so much easier to accomplish.

It won't fly. It is simply too alien to Orthodox tradition. Those who perceive this have an obligation from above to speak out and not fear such shameful threats as this Metropolitan wrote last year against the bishops of the Church of Greece.  It is to the great credit of the bishops that they are now moving to take control of the dialogue and will not leave it in the hands of a few people with their own agendas.

The awakening of the bishops of Greece before the Cyprus meeting to the Metropolitan's agenda moved them into action and the Metropolitan felt so rattled by their new interest and their statements and their demand for involvement that he actually wrote a letter to the Greek bishops threatening them!!!!

I am not sure where that letter can be read but it will be on

http://www.oodegr.com/

or

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/

The Orthodox bishops are now alert to the threat to authentic Orthodox ecclesiology which the more papally inclined representatives at the bi-lateral dialogue have been quietly fostering. 


Perhaps Met. John will be the "Saint Mark" of the restoration of communion and the ending of the schism...or maybe Metropolitan Hilarion?....

Metropolitan Hilarion is totally opposed to the papacy, so any union achieved under his influence would certainly do away with it.

Quote

Certainly Orthodoxy does not run on majority rule!!  History shows that. 

Doctrine is set by the minority, or so it appears.

The truth comes to us from the Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit.  Examine the dynamics of the Ecumenical Councils before throwing out such unsupported generalisations.

("Doctrine is set by the minority, or so it appears"  -- do you have Humanae Vitae and contraception in mind?)
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #137 on: August 14, 2010, 12:08:51 PM »



The actions of many Orthodox hiearchs toward the Pope already belie this little gem of a prognostication.

There is a belief abroad among the Orthodox that Met Zizioulas and Cardinal Kasper are engaged in an attempt to derail traditional Orthodox ecclesiology - at the last two Plenary Sessions, at Belgrade and Ravenna. We cannot judge what happened last October on Cyprus since there has been no information released - this is because the Orthodox bishops clamped down on the dialogue and are insisting that no statements may be released without synodal approval from the various Orthodox Churches.  Specifically, the concern centres on Met Zizioulas' and Cardinal Kasper's attempt to impose a "Global Protos" or "Universal Primus" on Orthodoxy which will bring Orthodox ecclesiology into line with the Roman and make an eventual union so much easier to accomplish.

It won't fly. It is simply too alien to Orthodox tradition. Those who perceive this have an obligation from above to speak out and not fear such shameful threats as this Metropolitan wrote last year against the bishops of the Church of Greece.  It is to the great credit of the bishops that they are now moving to take control of the dialogue and will not leave it in the hands of a few people with their own agendas.

The awakening of the bishops of Greece before the Cyprus meeting to the Metropolitan's agenda moved them into action and the Metropolitan felt so rattled by their new interest and their statements and their demand for involvement that he actually wrote a letter to the Greek bishops threatening them!!!!

I am not sure where that letter can be read but it will be on

http://www.oodegr.com/

or

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/

The Orthodox bishops are now alert to the threat to authentic Orthodox ecclesiology which the more papally inclined representatives at the bi-lateral dialogue have been quietly fostering.  


Perhaps Met. John will be the "Saint Mark" of the restoration of communion and the ending of the schism...or maybe Metropolitan Hilarion?....

Metropolitan Hilarion is totally opposed to the papacy, so any union achieved under his influence would certainly do away with it.

Quote

Certainly Orthodoxy does not run on majority rule!!  History shows that.  

Doctrine is set by the minority, or so it appears.

The truth comes to us from the Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit.  Examine the dynamics of the Ecumenical Councils before throwing out such unsupported generalisations.

("Doctrine is set by the minority, or so it appears"  -- do you have Humanae Vitae and contraception in mind?)

I don't see where Metropolitan Hilarion is opposed to the papacy.  He has simply said over time that there's no precedent for it in Slavic Orthodoxy.  I am sure if he meant to rule out any kind of recognition of the papacy he has the verbal skills to do that...and the courage, it seems to me.

You always take his words much further than he does but you have that habit in any event when you want to make your points, not worrying about much else.

I had a number of things in mind when I was musing about majority/minority kinds of claims that I've heard from Orthodox faithful over the years.  I had not reached the comparison stage with my thoughts.  Still haven't.  Still musing.

Mary
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« Reply #138 on: August 14, 2010, 01:32:35 PM »

"What you have failed to contemplate is the possibility that there may not be nearly as many "changes" on any one side or the other, as you would insist upon if you were king.

M. "
 

I would be interested in your understanding of how such a thing could happen. Seems it would be a convergence of two different faiths... are we talking about a least common denominator approach?


What would have to go on there would be that the hierarchs of two confessions would concur that there are not sufficient core differences in the faith to warrant schism, and that the differences that ARE there are either disciplinary or of a nature that is one that can be accepted as different without being heretical, or in warrant of schism...the same way we managed to remain in communion for the first 1000 years.

And I see a strong likelihood of that happening IF Orthodox and Catholic hierarchs can manage to sort out the jurisdictional and governance issues.

Mary

PS: And there are none who know me who would say that I am a minimalist...liturgically, spiritually, or doctrinally!!
You may not be a minimalist nor was i suggesting so. But how do you reconcile the differences? Orthodox will not accept anything more than a primacy of honor, no universal jusridction and no infallibilty. So do we agree to disagree? So that the roman parish believes in it but the Orthodox parish next door does not but we still share our sacraments? The Orthodox will not accept the filioque, IC, Purgatory as we understand rome's position right now.

You don't know this to be true of universal Orthodoxy.

You don't accept what you mention here, most of which is badly understood in Orthodoxy in the first place, and there may be some Orthodox bishops who don't either.

But I am afraid I've been around too long to simply buy these presumptions and assertions as fully representative of all Orthodox faithful and hierarchs.   Our bishops have come a long way down the road toward better understanding.

So I think this kind of predicting based on all kinds of bad and false assumptions concerning what would be the role of the pope in a united Church is just not going to be too successful in predicting any future reality, any more than it is useful in describing present Catholic teaching.

Mary
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« Reply #139 on: August 14, 2010, 03:36:50 PM »

Well I still find it hard to believe that there is any sizable amount among the Orthodox that will budge on any of these issues. It would be a betrayal of who we are and what we believe. Having lived in the bosom of the Orthodox Church and having been a member and or friend/supporter of Churches all across the USA I can't say that I have met any of these people. Obviously I cannot speak for Orthodox in other lands. I do find it hilarious that you would compare auxiliary Metropolitan John, who as a theologian was against the very idea of having auxiliaries only to accept that which he taught against, to Saint Mark.
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« Reply #140 on: August 14, 2010, 03:48:49 PM »

Well I still find it hard to believe that there is any sizable amount among the Orthodox that will budge on any of these issues. It would be a betrayal of who we are and what we believe. Having lived in the bosom of the Orthodox Church and having been a member and or friend/supporter of Churches all across the USA I can't say that I have met any of these people. Obviously I cannot speak for Orthodox in other lands. I do find it hilarious that you would compare auxiliary Metropolitan John, who as a theologian was against the very idea of having auxiliaries only to accept that which he taught against, to Saint Mark.

I thought that comparison would amuse you.

I am sorry you've not met Orthodox faithful who have a more positive approach to the resumption of communion without asserting that the Catholic Church needs to convert to Orthodoxy...

Mary
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« Reply #141 on: August 14, 2010, 04:31:28 PM »

"What you have failed to contemplate is the possibility that there may not be nearly as many "changes" on any one side or the other, as you would insist upon if you were king.

M. "
 

I would be interested in your understanding of how such a thing could happen. Seems it would be a convergence of two different faiths... are we talking about a least common denominator approach?


What would have to go on there would be that the hierarchs of two confessions would concur that there are not sufficient core differences in the faith to warrant schism, and that the differences that ARE there are either disciplinary or of a nature that is one that can be accepted as different without being heretical, or in warrant of schism...the same way we managed to remain in communion for the first 1000 years.

And I see a strong likelihood of that happening IF Orthodox and Catholic hierarchs can manage to sort out the jurisdictional and governance issues.

Mary

PS: And there are none who know me who would say that I am a minimalist...liturgically, spiritually, or doctrinally!!
You may not be a minimalist nor was i suggesting so. But how do you reconcile the differences? Orthodox will not accept anything more than a primacy of honor, no universal jusridction and no infallibilty. So do we agree to disagree? So that the roman parish believes in it but the Orthodox parish next door does not but we still share our sacraments? The Orthodox will not accept the filioque, IC, Purgatory as we understand rome's position right now.

You don't know this to be true of universal Orthodoxy.

You don't accept what you mention here, most of which is badly understood in Orthodoxy in the first place, and there may be some Orthodox bishops who don't either.

But I am afraid I've been around too long to simply buy these presumptions and assertions as fully representative of all Orthodox faithful and hierarchs.   Our bishops have come a long way down the road toward better understanding.

So I think this kind of predicting based on all kinds of bad and false assumptions concerning what would be the role of the pope in a united Church is just not going to be too successful in predicting any future reality, any more than it is useful in describing present Catholic teaching.

Mary

What was it that Fr. Kimel was talking about? Did it have something to do with those outside of Catholicism having no authority to accurately represent it? Could the same be said for Orthodoxy?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #142 on: August 14, 2010, 05:06:08 PM »

"What you have failed to contemplate is the possibility that there may not be nearly as many "changes" on any one side or the other, as you would insist upon if you were king.

M. "
 

I would be interested in your understanding of how such a thing could happen. Seems it would be a convergence of two different faiths... are we talking about a least common denominator approach?


What would have to go on there would be that the hierarchs of two confessions would concur that there are not sufficient core differences in the faith to warrant schism, and that the differences that ARE there are either disciplinary or of a nature that is one that can be accepted as different without being heretical, or in warrant of schism...the same way we managed to remain in communion for the first 1000 years.

And I see a strong likelihood of that happening IF Orthodox and Catholic hierarchs can manage to sort out the jurisdictional and governance issues.

Mary

PS: And there are none who know me who would say that I am a minimalist...liturgically, spiritually, or doctrinally!!
You may not be a minimalist nor was i suggesting so. But how do you reconcile the differences? Orthodox will not accept anything more than a primacy of honor, no universal jusridction and no infallibilty. So do we agree to disagree? So that the roman parish believes in it but the Orthodox parish next door does not but we still share our sacraments? The Orthodox will not accept the filioque, IC, Purgatory as we understand rome's position right now.

You don't know this to be true of universal Orthodoxy.

You don't accept what you mention here, most of which is badly understood in Orthodoxy in the first place, and there may be some Orthodox bishops who don't either.

But I am afraid I've been around too long to simply buy these presumptions and assertions as fully representative of all Orthodox faithful and hierarchs.   Our bishops have come a long way down the road toward better understanding.

So I think this kind of predicting based on all kinds of bad and false assumptions concerning what would be the role of the pope in a united Church is just not going to be too successful in predicting any future reality, any more than it is useful in describing present Catholic teaching.

Mary

What was it that Fr. Kimel was talking about? Did it have something to do with those outside of Catholicism having no authority to accurately represent it? Could the same be said for Orthodoxy?

In Christ,
Andrew

I'd say there's apples and oranges here. 

I am giving you my opinion.

Father Ambrose was proposing to tell one and all just what the Catholic Church teaches formally...and God help anyone who contradicted him...eh?

Mary
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« Reply #143 on: August 14, 2010, 05:21:23 PM »


What was it that Fr. Kimel was talking about? Did it have something to do with those outside of Catholicism having no authority to accurately represent it? Could the same be said for Orthodoxy?

I'm thinking not so much of authority as of linguistic competence.  Understanding any religious community requires, I think, the attainment of a real measure of fluency in the language, as well as a deep acquaintance with the culture of the community.  The grammar of faith needs to be internalized precisely so that the words can be understood as the speakers of the language intend.   It's never just a matter of reading words from the pages of a book, as one might do in a first year Spanish class. 
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« Reply #144 on: August 14, 2010, 05:53:43 PM »


What was it that Fr. Kimel was talking about? Did it have something to do with those outside of Catholicism having no authority to accurately represent it? Could the same be said for Orthodoxy?

I'm thinking not so much of authority as of linguistic competence.  Understanding any religious community requires, I think, the attainment of a real measure of fluency in the language, as well as a deep acquaintance with the culture of the community.  The grammar of faith needs to be internalized precisely so that the words can be understood as the speakers of the language intend.   It's never just a matter of reading words from the pages of a book, as one might do in a first year Spanish class. 

This is not a correction directed at you Father Kimel since I know you are aware, but it is a definition offered to indicate that your use of "authority" was perfectly appropriate in this case.  I realize that you are adjusting for a rather narrow usage here but I thought I'd offer this and suggest to those who are interested that they check out the PRIMARY meaning of authority to see that you were right in your lexical usage in the first place:

Main Entry: au·thor·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈthär-ə-tē, ȯ-, -ˈthȯr-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural au·thor·i·ties
Etymology: Middle English auctorite, from Anglo-French auctorité, from Latin auctoritat-, auctoritas opinion, decision, power, from auctor
Date: 13th century

1 a (1) : a citation (as from a book or file) used in defense or support (2) : the source from which the citation is drawn b (1) : a conclusive statement or set of statements (as an official decision of a court) (2) : a decision taken as a precedent (3) : testimony c : an individual cited or appealed to as an expert
2 a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior b : freedom granted by one in authority : right
3 a : persons in command; specifically : government b : a governmental agency or corporation to administer a revenue-producing public enterprise <the transit authority>
4 a : grounds, warrant <had excellent authority for believing the claim> b : convincing force <lent authority to the performance>
synonyms see influence, power
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« Reply #145 on: August 14, 2010, 06:05:29 PM »


What was it that Fr. Kimel was talking about? Did it have something to do with those outside of Catholicism having no authority to accurately represent it? Could the same be said for Orthodoxy?

I'm thinking not so much of authority as of linguistic competence.  Understanding any religious community requires, I think, the attainment of a real measure of fluency in the language, as well as a deep acquaintance with the culture of the community.  The grammar of faith needs to be internalized precisely so that the words can be understood as the speakers of the language intend.   It's never just a matter of reading words from the pages of a book, as one might do in a first year Spanish class. 

It seems to me, that the linguistic competence you speak of here is, in the case of doctrinal teaching, is heavily invested in and dependent upon those who bear the authority [bishops] to teach the truths of revelation,  primarily because their authority is divinely given, as is then the related ability to receive and defend the teaching.

This is not meant to be some sort of exhaustive comment, but an introductory one and I would include liturgy as the principle vehicle for the teaching authority.

What do you think?

M.
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« Reply #146 on: August 14, 2010, 06:23:10 PM »


What was it that Fr. Kimel was talking about? Did it have something to do with those outside of Catholicism having no authority to accurately represent it? Could the same be said for Orthodoxy?

I'm thinking not so much of authority as of linguistic competence.  Understanding any religious community requires, I think, the attainment of a real measure of fluency in the language, as well as a deep acquaintance with the culture of the community.  The grammar of faith needs to be internalized precisely so that the words can be understood as the speakers of the language intend.   It's never just a matter of reading words from the pages of a book, as one might do in a first year Spanish class. 
Or the CCC?
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« Reply #147 on: August 14, 2010, 06:27:59 PM »



The actions of many Orthodox hiearchs toward the Pope already belie this little gem of a prognostication.

There is a belief abroad among the Orthodox that Met Zizioulas and Cardinal Kasper are engaged in an attempt to derail traditional Orthodox ecclesiology - at the last two Plenary Sessions, at Belgrade and Ravenna. We cannot judge what happened last October on Cyprus since there has been no information released - this is because the Orthodox bishops clamped down on the dialogue and are insisting that no statements may be released without synodal approval from the various Orthodox Churches.  Specifically, the concern centres on Met Zizioulas' and Cardinal Kasper's attempt to impose a "Global Protos" or "Universal Primus" on Orthodoxy which will bring Orthodox ecclesiology into line with the Roman and make an eventual union so much easier to accomplish.

It won't fly. It is simply too alien to Orthodox tradition. Those who perceive this have an obligation from above to speak out and not fear such shameful threats as this Metropolitan wrote last year against the bishops of the Church of Greece.  It is to the great credit of the bishops that they are now moving to take control of the dialogue and will not leave it in the hands of a few people with their own agendas.

The awakening of the bishops of Greece before the Cyprus meeting to the Metropolitan's agenda moved them into action and the Metropolitan felt so rattled by their new interest and their statements and their demand for involvement that he actually wrote a letter to the Greek bishops threatening them!!!!

I am not sure where that letter can be read but it will be on

http://www.oodegr.com/

or

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/

The Orthodox bishops are now alert to the threat to authentic Orthodox ecclesiology which the more papally inclined representatives at the bi-lateral dialogue have been quietly fostering. 


Perhaps Met. John will be the "Saint Mark" of the restoration of communion and the ending of the schism...or maybe Metropolitan Hilarion?....

Certainly Orthodoxy does not run on majority rule!!  History shows that. 

Doctrine is set by the minority, or so it appears.

Mary
Truth is not up for a vote.

And maybe Met. John will be the Cardinal Bessarion....If so, may he have the same end.
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« Reply #148 on: August 14, 2010, 06:39:20 PM »

As I mentioned, in my original comment I was not thinking of magisterial authority but rather of linguistic competence, the kind of competence that can only be acquired through deep immersion both in the theological discourse of the community but also in its liturgical and ascetical practices.  One must learn the language from the inside, if you will.  Those standing outside the Catholic Church will often misunderstand its theological statements, precisely because they encounter these statements divorced from their proper liturgical and communal context.  One cannot, for example, understand Aquinas's formulation of transubstantiation if one has never experienced the Mass in the way that Aquinas experienced it.  Similarly, one cannot understand John Damascene's teaching on icons if one has never experienced the veneration of icons as the Damascene experienced it.

Hence, I suggest, the need for humility.  It is dangerous for an outsider to claim, "This is what the Catholic Church believes" or "This is what the Orthodox Church believes" or "This is what the Lutheran Church believes."  More often than not, the outsider is clueless.  He may well be able to quote authoritative "texts," but because he has never been formed by the community that generated these texts and keeps them alive, he simply lacks the competence to interpret the texts accurately.  Like a parrot, he can speak the words, but he does not comprehend.  He thinks he knows what the words mean, because he assumes they mean what he would mean if he were to speak them.  But he is mistaken.  Meaning does not exist in dictionaries.  Meaning exists in shared community.

This does not mean that I think it is impossible for an Orthodox Christian to understand Catholicism or that I think it is impossible for a Catholic Christian to understand Orthodoxy.  But I think it requires great effort and sympathy.    

  
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« Reply #149 on: August 14, 2010, 07:03:47 PM »

As I mentioned, in my original comment I was not thinking of magisterial authority but rather of linguistic competence, the kind of competence that can only be acquired through deep immersion both in the theological discourse of the community but also in its liturgical and ascetical practices.  One must learn the language from the inside, if you will.  Those standing outside the Catholic Church will often misunderstand its theological statements, precisely because they encounter these statements divorced from their proper liturgical and communal context.  One cannot, for example, understand Aquinas's formulation of transubstantiation if one has never experienced the Mass in the way that Aquinas experienced it.  Similarly, one cannot understand John Damascene's teaching on icons if one has never experienced the veneration of icons as the Damascene experienced it.

Hence, I suggest, the need for humility.  It is dangerous for an outsider to claim, "This is what the Catholic Church believes" or "This is what the Orthodox Church believes" or "This is what the Lutheran Church believes."  More often than not, the outsider is clueless.  He may well be able to quote authoritative "texts," but because he has never been formed by the community that generated these texts and keeps them alive, he simply lacks the competence to interpret the texts accurately.  Like a parrot, he can speak the words, but he does not comprehend.  He thinks he knows what the words mean, because he assumes they mean what he would mean if he were to speak them.  But he is mistaken.  Meaning does not exist in dictionaries.  Meaning exists in shared community.

This does not mean that I think it is impossible for an Orthodox Christian to understand Catholicism or that I think it is impossible for a Catholic Christian to understand Orthodoxy.  But I think it requires great effort and sympathy.    

  

I guess where you and I seem to diverge is that I see all of what you describe here as part of the auctoritas of the magisterial charge which includes bishops and the laity inspired by the Holy Spirit...and so the authority displays through immersion in the liturgical, sacramental, and public devotional life of the Church, and the spiritual lives of the faithful...but the immersion [praxis] cannot really be separated from the auctoritas [grace].

That is why I erred in thinking that I was not contradicting you.

Mary

M.
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« Reply #150 on: August 14, 2010, 07:26:27 PM »

If one wishes to maintain that only those in the Church can be saved, then reason dictates that at that final moment something will occur which will bring those not in the Church into the Church.

Yes. I am inclined to believe that is how it will happen. I don't really see how one could be understood as redeemed without being united with the Church.

I do think Khomiakov's statements are dangerous. For one thing, to speak of the earthly visible Church as not the fullness of the Church in any sense is inherently dangerous, if not erroneous in every context. For another thing, to point out that the current earthly and visible communion is not the extent of the entire Church doesn't just apply to the future, but even to now, given the existent of the "Church Triumphant". So I don't know how relevant the point is. And it certainly doesn't seem to address the current nature of the Church.
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« Reply #151 on: August 14, 2010, 07:30:24 PM »

More often than not, the outsider is clueless. 
My guess is that Orthodox Christians understand what the Orthodox Church teaches. Now if more often than not, the Orthodox Christian is clueless as to what the RCC teaches, would it not be a whole lot better for there to be no reunion of the two Churches, and for the Orthodox Christian to remain in the E. Orthodox Church which he understands?
 Those standing outside the Catholic Church will often misunderstand its theological statements, precisely because they encounter these statements divorced from their proper liturgical and communal context.  One cannot, for example, understand Aquinas's formulation of transubstantiation if one has never experienced the Mass in the way that Aquinas experienced it.  .... It is dangerous for an outsider to claim, "This is what the Catholic Church believes" or "This is what the Orthodox Church believes" or "This is what the Lutheran Church believes."  More often than not, the outsider is clueless.  He may well be able to quote authoritative "texts," but because he has never been formed by the community that generated these texts and keeps them alive, he simply lacks the competence to interpret the texts accurately.  Like a parrot, he can speak the words, but he does not comprehend.  He thinks he knows what the words mean, because he assumes they mean what he would mean if he were to speak them.  But he is mistaken.  Meaning does not exist in dictionaries.  
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« Reply #152 on: August 14, 2010, 08:01:35 PM »

]
My guess is that Orthodox Christians understand what the Orthodox Church teaches. Now if more often than not, the Orthodox Christian is clueless as to what the RCC teaches, would it not be a whole lot better for there to be no reunion of the two Churches, and for the Orthodox Christian to remain in the E. Orthodox Church which he understands?

I think the charity requires to give the "insider" the benefit of the doubt.  By all means let us assume, until evidence suggests otherwise, that the Orthodox we meet truly understand the faith their Church teaches and lives, and by all means let us assume, until evidence suggests otherwise, that the Catholics we meet truly understand the faith their Church teaches and lives. 

As far as reunion of the Churches, What is God's will?  But the way that you formulated your sentence intimates that the Catholic Church believes that the Orthodox should abandon their Churches and becomes Latin Christians.  This is not how the Catholic Church understands the ecumenical call to unity. 
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« Reply #153 on: August 14, 2010, 11:52:13 PM »

Quote
But the way that you formulated your sentence intimates that the Catholic Church believes that the Orthodox should abandon their Churches and becomes Latin Christians.  This is not how the Catholic Church understands the ecumenical call to unity.  


"Orthodoxy in communion with Rome", as per the Byzantine Catholic model? Forget it.
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« Reply #154 on: August 15, 2010, 12:31:12 AM »


I don't see where Metropolitan Hilarion is opposed to the papacy.  He has simply said over time that there's no precedent for it in Slavic Orthodoxy.  I am sure if he meant to rule out any kind of recognition of the papacy he has the verbal skills to do that...and the courage, it seems to me.



Mary, take off those papal blinkers, Stop making it up as you go.  Really, I could swear that you work for Zenit.  Start trying to see the Church through the spectacles of Byzantine Catholicism.

Primacy on a regional level and at the level of Local Churches is catered for in the canons. The Orthodox do not dispute that. But primacy on a global level does not exist.  If you can find even half a canon in the Ecumenical Councils which deals with universal primacy, I'll eat my kamilavka.  It is just not there, it was a concept completely alien to the Church of the first millennium.

Here are the words of Cardinal Kasper on Ravenna 2007:

"But the real breakthrough, he said, was that "the Orthodox agreed to speak
about the universal level -- because before there were some who denied that
there could even be institutional structures on the universal level. The
second point is that we agreed that at the universal level there is a
primate. It was clear that there is only one candidate for this post, that
is the Bishop of Rome, because according to the old order -- "taxis" in
Greek -- of the Church of the first millennium the see of Rome is the first
among them."



Here is the response of the Orthodox Church of Russia. This is Bishop Hilarion, speaking to "Inside The Vatican", 15 November 2007:

"We do not have any theology of the Petrine office on the level of the
Universal Church. Our ecclesiology does not have room for such a concept.
This is why the Orthodox Church has for centuries opposed the idea of the
universal jurisdiction of any bishop, including the Bishop of Rome.

"We recognize that there is a certain order in which the primates of the
Local Churches should be mentioned. In this order the Bishop of Rome
occupied the first place until 1054, and then the primacy of order in the
Orthodox Church was shifted to the Patriarch of Constantinople, who until
the schism had been the second in order. But we believe that all primates of
the Local Churches are equal to one another, and none of them has
jurisdiction over any other."


From
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1925822/posts

So, do you see any parenthetical clauses in there of "of course we may accept the papacy and universal jurisdiction sometime in the future.   We are not obliged to be faithful to our understanding of the Ecumenical Councils."
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« Reply #155 on: August 15, 2010, 12:39:17 AM »

Well I still find it hard to believe that there is any sizable amount among the Orthodox that will budge on any of these issues. It would be a betrayal of who we are and what we believe. Having lived in the bosom of the Orthodox Church and having been a member and or friend/supporter of Churches all across the USA I can't say that I have met any of these people. Obviously I cannot speak for Orthodox in other lands. I do find it hilarious that you would compare auxiliary Metropolitan John, who as a theologian was against the very idea of having auxiliaries only to accept that which he taught against, to Saint Mark.

I thought that comparison would amuse you.

I am sorry you've not met Orthodox faithful who have a more positive approach to the resumption of communion without asserting that the Catholic Church needs to convert to Orthodoxy...

It is the normative position of all Orthodox, even the most ecumenically minded, that to achieve union with Orthodoxy the Roman Catholic Church must bring its doctrines into full conformity with Orthodoxy.

It is also the normative position, even of the most ecumenically minded of the Orthodox, that there are no doctrines in Orthodoxy which must be altered.

This is not arrogance.  This is simply an unshakeable belief that the promises of Christ to send the Holy Spirit to safeguard the truth within the Church are unfailing promises.

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« Reply #156 on: August 15, 2010, 12:45:12 AM »


What was it that Fr. Kimel was talking about? Did it have something to do with those outside of Catholicism having no authority to accurately represent it? Could the same be said for Orthodoxy?

I'm thinking not so much of authority as of linguistic competence.  Understanding any religious community requires, I think, the attainment of a real measure of fluency in the language, as well as a deep acquaintance with the culture of the community.  The grammar of faith needs to be internalized precisely so that the words can be understood as the speakers of the language intend.   It's never just a matter of reading words from the pages of a book, as one might do in a first year Spanish class. 

Linguistic competence?  As Mary has said, all formal teachings within Roman Catholicism must be promulgated in Latin.  My Latin is fluent.
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« Reply #157 on: August 15, 2010, 03:37:21 AM »


I am sorry you've not met Orthodox faithful who have a more positive approach to the resumption of communion without asserting that the Catholic Church needs to convert to Orthodoxy...

Dear Mary,

It just occurred to me that there is an excellent explanation of why there cannot be communion with the Roman Catholic Church until they have adopted the teachings of the Orthodox faith.

Keep an eye out for Bp Kallistos Ware's "Communion and Intercommunion".  It is only a small booklet but it will provide some enlightenment why even such a "liberal" as Bishop Kallistos cannot contemplate communion without Catholicism's full return to orthodox doctrine.
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« Reply #158 on: August 15, 2010, 09:33:37 AM »


I am sorry you've not met Orthodox faithful who have a more positive approach to the resumption of communion without asserting that the Catholic Church needs to convert to Orthodoxy...

Dear Mary,

It just occurred to me that there is an excellent explanation of why there cannot be communion with the Roman Catholic Church until they have adopted the teachings of the Orthodox faith.

Keep an eye out for Bp Kallistos Ware's "Communion and Intercommunion".  It is only a small booklet but it will provide some enlightenment why even such a "liberal" as Bishop Kallistos cannot contemplate communion without Catholicism's full return to orthodox doctrine.

I am fine here Father. 

Don't you blink either because I think you might be in for a normative surprise...

BTW I know many people who read Latin beautifully and the best they can do is give straight translations of Catholic Documents.  They haven't a clue what they mean actually.

I do translation work so I am somewhat sensitive to the difference between what appears in black and white and the meaning that is intended.

So your Latin fluency may be superior but your Catholic fluency very often misses the mark by miles.

Mary
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« Reply #159 on: August 15, 2010, 09:53:22 AM »


I am sorry you've not met Orthodox faithful who have a more positive approach to the resumption of communion without asserting that the Catholic Church needs to convert to Orthodoxy...

Dear Mary,

It just occurred to me that there is an excellent explanation of why there cannot be communion with the Roman Catholic Church until they have adopted the teachings of the Orthodox faith.

Keep an eye out for Bp Kallistos Ware's "Communion and Intercommunion".  It is only a small booklet but it will provide some enlightenment why even such a "liberal" as Bishop Kallistos cannot contemplate communion without Catholicism's full return to orthodox doctrine.
BTW I know many people who read Latin beautifully and the best they can do is give straight translations of Catholic Documents.  They haven't a clue what they mean actually.

I do translation work so I am somewhat sensitive to the difference between what appears in black and white and the meaning that is intended.

So your Latin fluency may be superior but your Catholic fluency very often misses the mark by miles.


Translation:  Father Irish Hermit often puts his finger on the differences in teaching between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II but since we are fully committed, even desperately committed, to denial of any change in teaching we shall look for ways to poke fun at Father Irish Hermit.

Father Irish Hermit has one book in print translated from Serbian which he worked on with an English nun and he worked for many years as a court translator for Russian.
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« Reply #160 on: August 15, 2010, 09:58:20 AM »


I am sorry you've not met Orthodox faithful who have a more positive approach to the resumption of communion without asserting that the Catholic Church needs to convert to Orthodoxy...

Dear Mary,

It just occurred to me that there is an excellent explanation of why there cannot be communion with the Roman Catholic Church until they have adopted the teachings of the Orthodox faith.

Keep an eye out for Bp Kallistos Ware's "Communion and Intercommunion".  It is only a small booklet but it will provide some enlightenment why even such a "liberal" as Bishop Kallistos cannot contemplate communion without Catholicism's full return to orthodox doctrine.
BTW I know many people who read Latin beautifully and the best they can do is give straight translations of Catholic Documents.  They haven't a clue what they mean actually.

I do translation work so I am somewhat sensitive to the difference between what appears in black and white and the meaning that is intended.

So your Latin fluency may be superior but your Catholic fluency very often misses the mark by miles.


Translation:  Father Irish Hermit often puts his finger on the differences in teaching between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II but since we are fully committed, even desperately committed, to denial of any change in teaching we shall look for ways to poke fun at Father Irish Hermit.

Father Irish Hermit has one book in print translated from Serbian which he worked on with an English nun and he worked for many years as a court translator for Russian.

Translation:  Father Ambrose has a burning need that can never be met.  Elijahmaria is sorry about that but the meanings he is so desperate to promote are not real, and there are old and ancient texts from saints and councils in the Latin west that amply demonstrate that there is no difference in the teachings concerning purgation from Florence to Trent.  Some of them have been presented here but the unquenchable fire carries on in the breast of a Irishman, but such are the Irish once they make up their minds concerning the right of something.  See how far it has gotten them in the history of the world.

M.
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« Reply #161 on: August 15, 2010, 10:16:16 AM »


I am sorry you've not met Orthodox faithful who have a more positive approach to the resumption of communion without asserting that the Catholic Church needs to convert to Orthodoxy...

Dear Mary,

It just occurred to me that there is an excellent explanation of why there cannot be communion with the Roman Catholic Church until they have adopted the teachings of the Orthodox faith.

Keep an eye out for Bp Kallistos Ware's "Communion and Intercommunion".  It is only a small booklet but it will provide some enlightenment why even such a "liberal" as Bishop Kallistos cannot contemplate communion without Catholicism's full return to orthodox doctrine.
BTW I know many people who read Latin beautifully and the best they can do is give straight translations of Catholic Documents.  They haven't a clue what they mean actually.

I do translation work so I am somewhat sensitive to the difference between what appears in black and white and the meaning that is intended.

So your Latin fluency may be superior but your Catholic fluency very often misses the mark by miles.


Translation:  Father Irish Hermit often puts his finger on the differences in teaching between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II but since we are fully committed, even desperately committed, to denial of any change in teaching we shall look for ways to poke fun at Father Irish Hermit.

Father Irish Hermit has one book in print translated from Serbian which he worked on with an English nun and he worked for many years as a court translator for Russian.

Translation:  Father Ambrose has a burning need that can never be met.  Elijahmaria is sorry about that but the meanings he is so desperate to promote are not real, and there are old and ancient texts from saints and councils in the Latin west that amply demonstrate that there is no difference in the teachings concerning purgation from Florence to Trent.  Some of them have been presented here but the unquenchable fire carries on in the breast of a Irishman, but such are the Irish once they make up their minds concerning the right of something. 

See how far it has gotten them in the history of the world.


I am pleased to inform Elijahmaria of a fact about the Irish of which she may not know.  It was the generosity and self-sacrifice of a small nation in sending thousands of its sons and daughters as missionaries into virtually every country on earth which established the Roman Catholic Church around the globe.  Take away the impact of Ireland on the history of the world and the Roman Catholic Church would be pretty much a European institution still.

If we move back into the Orthodox period of Ireland surely we all know that without the Irish re-christianisation of Europe from the late 6th century onwards....  Pick up some history books, please.   laugh
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« Reply #162 on: August 15, 2010, 10:37:52 AM »


I am sorry you've not met Orthodox faithful who have a more positive approach to the resumption of communion without asserting that the Catholic Church needs to convert to Orthodoxy...

Dear Mary,

It just occurred to me that there is an excellent explanation of why there cannot be communion with the Roman Catholic Church until they have adopted the teachings of the Orthodox faith.

Keep an eye out for Bp Kallistos Ware's "Communion and Intercommunion".  It is only a small booklet but it will provide some enlightenment why even such a "liberal" as Bishop Kallistos cannot contemplate communion without Catholicism's full return to orthodox doctrine.
BTW I know many people who read Latin beautifully and the best they can do is give straight translations of Catholic Documents.  They haven't a clue what they mean actually.

I do translation work so I am somewhat sensitive to the difference between what appears in black and white and the meaning that is intended.

So your Latin fluency may be superior but your Catholic fluency very often misses the mark by miles.


Translation:  Father Irish Hermit often puts his finger on the differences in teaching between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II but since we are fully committed, even desperately committed, to denial of any change in teaching we shall look for ways to poke fun at Father Irish Hermit.

Father Irish Hermit has one book in print translated from Serbian which he worked on with an English nun and he worked for many years as a court translator for Russian.

Translation:  Father Ambrose has a burning need that can never be met.  Elijahmaria is sorry about that but the meanings he is so desperate to promote are not real, and there are old and ancient texts from saints and councils in the Latin west that amply demonstrate that there is no difference in the teachings concerning purgation from Florence to Trent.  Some of them have been presented here but the unquenchable fire carries on in the breast of a Irishman, but such are the Irish once they make up their minds concerning the right of something. 

See how far it has gotten them in the history of the world.


I am pleased to inform Elijahmaria of a fact about the Irish of which she may not know.  It was the generosity and self-sacrifice of a small nation in sending thousands of its sons and daughters as missionaries into virtually every country on earth which established the Roman Catholic Church around the globe.  Take away the impact of Ireland on the history of the world and the Roman Catholic Church would be pretty much a European institution still.

If we move back into the Orthodox period of Ireland surely we all know that without the Irish re-christianisation of Europe from the late 6th century onwards....  Pick up some history books, please.   laugh

All I have to do is pick up a family history.

That does not make you any kind of expert on Catholic teaching on purgation.

M.
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« Reply #163 on: August 15, 2010, 10:41:44 AM »


I am sorry you've not met Orthodox faithful who have a more positive approach to the resumption of communion without asserting that the Catholic Church needs to convert to Orthodoxy...

Dear Mary,

It just occurred to me that there is an excellent explanation of why there cannot be communion with the Roman Catholic Church until they have adopted the teachings of the Orthodox faith.

Keep an eye out for Bp Kallistos Ware's "Communion and Intercommunion".  It is only a small booklet but it will provide some enlightenment why even such a "liberal" as Bishop Kallistos cannot contemplate communion without Catholicism's full return to orthodox doctrine.
BTW I know many people who read Latin beautifully and the best they can do is give straight translations of Catholic Documents.  They haven't a clue what they mean actually.

I do translation work so I am somewhat sensitive to the difference between what appears in black and white and the meaning that is intended.

So your Latin fluency may be superior but your Catholic fluency very often misses the mark by miles.


Translation:  Father Irish Hermit often puts his finger on the differences in teaching between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II but since we are fully committed, even desperately committed, to denial of any change in teaching we shall look for ways to poke fun at Father Irish Hermit.

Father Irish Hermit has one book in print translated from Serbian which he worked on with an English nun and he worked for many years as a court translator for Russian.

Translation:  Father Ambrose has a burning need that can never be met.  Elijahmaria is sorry about that but the meanings he is so desperate to promote are not real, and there are old and ancient texts from saints and councils in the Latin west that amply demonstrate that there is no difference in the teachings concerning purgation from Florence to Trent.  Some of them have been presented here but the unquenchable fire carries on in the breast of a Irishman, but such are the Irish once they make up their minds concerning the right of something. 

See how far it has gotten them in the history of the world.


I am pleased to inform Elijahmaria of a fact about the Irish of which she may not know.  It was the generosity and self-sacrifice of a small nation in sending thousands of its sons and daughters as missionaries into virtually every country on earth which established the Roman Catholic Church around the globe.  Take away the impact of Ireland on the history of the world and the Roman Catholic Church would be pretty much a European institution still.

If we move back into the Orthodox period of Ireland surely we all know that without the Irish re-christianisation of Europe from the late 6th century onwards....  Pick up some history books, please.   laugh

All I have to do is pick up a family history.

That does not make you any kind of expert on Catholic teaching on purgation.

Ummm.... did I say that it did?!

The Ambrose and Mary Show is starting to get a bit too surreal for me!   laugh laugh
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« Reply #164 on: August 15, 2010, 11:02:18 AM »


Ummm.... did I say that it did?!

The Ambrose and Mary Show is starting to get a bit too surreal for me!   laugh laugh

The sad thing to me in all this is that there actually are teachings and spiritual practices that we do share even with contested things like purgation that are not obvious because of the stereotypes that have emerged over the centuries and the shibboleths that only our best and brightest ever really over come and that all stays behind closed doors, in the main.

And when anyone tries to bring them to the fore or to talk about things then there are a flurry of notes designed to kill the dialogue by making it, in fact, surreal rather than real.

So I don't have any grinny-faces to add to something that seems to me to be of vital importance to souls.

M.
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« Reply #165 on: August 15, 2010, 11:11:55 AM »

I'm starting to think this ongoing war between the two of you (in this thread and others) is either a foretaste of Purgatory or a toll house (depending on your belief) ... for the rest of us! laugh
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« Reply #166 on: August 15, 2010, 11:12:19 AM »


Ummm.... did I say that it did?!

The Ambrose and Mary Show is starting to get a bit too surreal for me!   laugh laugh

The sad thing to me in all this is that there actually are teachings and spiritual practices that we do share even with contested things like purgation that are not obvious because of the stereotypes that have emerged over the centuries and the shibboleths that only our best and brightest ever really over come and that all stays behind closed doors, in the main.

And when anyone tries to bring them to the fore or to talk about things then there are a flurry of notes designed to kill the dialogue by making it, in fact, surreal rather than real.

So I don't have any grinny-faces to add to something that seems to me to be of vital importance to souls.

If only our best and brighest ever overcome it, then you and I am shan't succeed, shall we.

I frankly don't see why it is of vital importance to souls though.  Are souls damned because they are not the best and brightest and cannot overcome the shibboleths?
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« Reply #167 on: August 15, 2010, 11:19:00 AM »

I'm starting to think this ongoing war between the two of you (in this thread and others) is either a foretaste of Purgatory or a toll house (depending on your belief) ... for the rest of us! laugh

I hereby proclaim an end to the Ambrose and Mary Show and am pulling down the curtain on my side of the stage.
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« Reply #168 on: August 15, 2010, 11:22:05 AM »

I'm starting to think this ongoing war between the two of you (in this thread and others) is either a foretaste of Purgatory or a toll house (depending on your belief) ... for the rest of us! laugh

I'd be interested in seeing the revival of a toll house thread to learn the Greek Catholic belief on this point.
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« Reply #169 on: August 15, 2010, 11:23:04 AM »

If it's OK for someone other than Ambrose and Mary to interject an opinion  Cheesy, here's mine:  

One of the reasons I'm more comfortable with Orthodoxy than Catholicism is my perception that Orthodoxy is, at least in theory, more comfortable with my uncertainty about the afterlife.

There may very well be something like Purgatory after we die.  But I haven't died yet, so I don't know.

There may very well be something like Toll Houses after we die.  But I haven't died yet, so I don't know.

There may be something completely different and unexpected after we die.

There may be NOTHING after we die.

But I haven't died yet!  So I don't know!!!

And I don't really see how anyone who hasn't died can know, for sure, to the point where they can authoritatively tell other people that they MUST believe what they believe, as a FACT, or else they will be shut out from any contact with God for eternity.

Sigh.  So what do you think?  Am I doomed? Grin
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« Reply #170 on: August 15, 2010, 01:09:42 PM »

Catholics are deceived ,they follow Questionable talking Apparitions ,they base there theology on them ....
Dump all those Apparitions into the dustbin,return back to the Holy Fathers, faith once delivered unto salvation....  Grin And Be not decieved no more...... Grin
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« Reply #171 on: August 15, 2010, 01:31:17 PM »

Catholics are deceived ,they follow Questionable talking Apparitions ,they base there theology on them ....
Dump all those Apparitions into the dustbin,return back to the Holy Fathers, faith once delivered unto salvation....  Grin And Be not decieved no more...... Grin

Not all of them are talking.  For example Ireland has statues which wobble.

+[:-]>>>>>


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« Reply #172 on: August 15, 2010, 01:43:40 PM »

Catholics are deceived ,they follow Questionable talking Apparitions ,they base there theology on them ....
Dump all those Apparitions into the dustbin,return back to the Holy Fathers, faith once delivered unto salvation....  Grin And Be not decieved no more...... Grin

Not all of them are talking.  For example Ireland has statues which wobble.

+[:-]>>>>>





Fr. What is the purpose  for statues to be wobbling...i Know the Irish like to Indulge a little to much in the spirits, after that are you sure their not just imagining it.... Grin
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« Reply #173 on: August 15, 2010, 01:52:49 PM »

Stashko,

I don't think that anybody knows just why the statues of Ireland are wobbling.   The Church over there is taking a cautious approach, neither approving nor disapproving.

The Irish Times
----

Ballinspittle's "wobbling statue" might not be drawing the thousands it
did 12 years ago, but the faithful and the curious are gathering again
amid reports that the Blessed Virgin statue is wobbling again.

On a quiet weekday afternoon, the neatly-kept grotto, set into the
hillside just outside the west Cork village, is attracting a brisk
crowd, with up to 30 people at a time stopping off to pray. Some stay
for hours, some for only a few minutes.

Reduced to 2 paragraphs to comply with forum policy.  See Fr Anastasios' ruling:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg456852.html#msg456852

For full article please see
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/1997/0813/97081300054.html




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« Reply #174 on: August 15, 2010, 01:57:21 PM »

If it's OK for someone other than Ambrose and Mary to interject an opinion  Cheesy, here's mine:  

One of the reasons I'm more comfortable with Orthodoxy than Catholicism is my perception that Orthodoxy is, at least in theory, more comfortable with my uncertainty about the afterlife.

There may very well be something like Purgatory after we die.  But I haven't died yet, so I don't know.

There may very well be something like Toll Houses after we die.  But I haven't died yet, so I don't know.

There may be something completely different and unexpected after we die.

There may be NOTHING after we die.

But I haven't died yet!  So I don't know!!!
Which idea makes the most sense to you?
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« Reply #175 on: August 15, 2010, 02:16:36 PM »

Not the point, is it?  What makes sense to me may not make sense to you - and neither of us may be right!  All we can do is pray "Lord have mercy on me a sinner" and trust that whatever happens is His will. 
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« Reply #176 on: August 15, 2010, 02:39:42 PM »

Not the point, is it?  What makes sense to me may not make sense to you - and neither of us may be right!  All we can do is pray "Lord have mercy on me a sinner" and trust that whatever happens is His will. 
Why would it be God's will that there is nothing after death? I don't really see that as a logical possibility unless you mean you are doubting God's existence as well.
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« Reply #177 on: August 15, 2010, 03:22:30 PM »

Sometimes I do, Wyatt.  Does that shock you?  It shouldn't.  Most of us, if we're honest, go through periods of doubt.  The real test of your faith is what you do when that happens.  Smiley
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
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« Reply #178 on: August 15, 2010, 04:19:42 PM »

Sometimes I do, Wyatt.  Does that shock you?  It shouldn't.  Most of us, if we're honest, go through periods of doubt.  The real test of your faith is what you do when that happens.  Smiley
No, it doesn't really shock me. I was just curious. Even Mother Teresa had dark periods where she doubted, so if she isn't immune to it then I doubt most of us are.
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« Reply #179 on: August 15, 2010, 05:18:30 PM »


Sometimes I do, Wyatt.  Does that shock you?  It shouldn't.  Most of us, if we're honest, go through periods of doubt.  The real test of your faith is what you do when that happens.  Smiley

Message no. 1 - something inspirational on doubt from Mother Maria of Normaby

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23847.msg365077.html#msg365077
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