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Author Topic: Greek Catholics and Orthodox to build Church together  (Read 3201 times) Average Rating: 0
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stanley123
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« on: August 09, 2010, 12:45:04 AM »

According to an article at a Catholic site, the Religious Information Services of Ukraine, the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and the Ukrainian Orthodox (Kyivan Patriarchate - not recognized by the Russian Orthodox) have agreed to build a church together
GREEK CATHOLICS AND ORTHODOX TO BUILD CHURCH TOGETHER TO CELEBRATE BAPTISM OF RUS
The construction of a new church of Saint Panteleimon began on July 29 in Kolomyia on the premises of the oncology hospital. Bishop of the Kolomyia-Chernivtsi Eparchy of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) Mykola Simkaylo and Bishop of the Kolomyia-Kosovo Eparchy of the UOC-Kyivan Patriarchate Ivan Boychuk blessed the building of the new church. The building of the church is dedicated to the 1022nd anniversary of the baptism of Kyivan Rus, reports the Information Department of the UGCC...
 http://www.risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/community/temples_church_property/36849/


Edited to be OK with the new forum policy - mike.
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2010, 02:21:35 AM »

According to an article at a Catholic site, the Religious Information Services of Ukraine, the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and the Ukrainian Orthodox (Kyivan Patriarchate - not recognized by the Russian Orthodox)
ulgarian Orthodox CHurch - Alternative Synod and the Orthodox Church of Italy.
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stanley123
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2010, 02:41:19 AM »

According to an article at a Catholic site, the Religious Information Services of Ukraine, the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and the Ukrainian Orthodox (Kyivan Patriarchate - not recognized by the Russian Orthodox) have agreed to build a church together http://www.risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/community/temples_church_property/36849/


Edited to be OK with the new forum policy - mike.
The article mentions that Bishop Mykola of the UGCC and Bishop Boychuk of the UOCKP are calling on their priests to hold joint divine services in the interest of Christian unity.
According to a recent poll, of those Ukrainians who belong to a Church about 30% belong to the Moscow Patriarchate UOCMP, about 40% belong to the UOCKP, and about 14% are Greek Catholics.
http://razumkov.org.ua/ukr/poll.php?poll_id=300
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2010, 02:47:45 AM »

uhh... ok... somebody please tell me they think this is wrong? Because apparently, we have Ukrainian Orthodox priests that think it's not.
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2010, 02:58:06 AM »

Why to care about what the Kiev Patriarchate is doing jointly with Greek Catholics, Baptists or whoever?
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2010, 04:37:38 AM »

Why to care about what the Kiev Patriarchate is doing jointly with Greek Catholics, Baptists or whoever?


Even though the Kiev  Patriarch is independent , he's going to sow confusion among the Orthodox faithful that are with him,if he does this .....And all orthodox should care About it.....

He's not working for unity of Holy Orthodoxy ,He's working Against it, since the Ecumenical Patriarch didn't or doesn't recognize him.....

He should be sent to Siberia for some vacation time ,to meditate on what he's contemplating on doing.....My worth....
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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2010, 09:22:56 AM »


I care!  I care VERY much!

This is insane!  This man, who calls himself a Patriarch....is not an Orthodox Shepherd...and never has been.  I have said from day 1, his intentions are NOT for the good of Orthodoxy or for Ukraine.  However, everyone has been supporting him and calling me a "bad" Ukrainian for picking Orthodoxy first!

In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) this man is only there to destroy Ukrainian Orthodoxy.  Period.

Finally, people are realizing the truth about him.  They've ignored all the rumors of his mistresses and children, and collaboration with KGB, appointing clergy and consecrating bishops for $$$ not because they have a calling and are prepared to lead a flock, and his words about "Ukraine not deserving her own Church" until he got to lead it, etc.  All this people ignored as simple rumors. 

Granted, we are not to judge.

However, if all of this was false...why hasn't it been proven false?

Even IF it is false and people have been badmouthing him from the start and he truly is innocent...then for the sake of the Church, if he truly wanted what's best for the Church, he would have stepped down, because all the controversy is only hurting Orthodoxy.  But, no.....let's press on.....see how much real damage we can do.

I say he has been sent there only to destroy Ukrainian Orthodoxy!  ...and he is doing a mighty fine job of it!

God bless Ukraine!  May the Lord have mercy on all those who wish to destroy His Church, may He open their eyes before it is too late, and aid those who wish to truly build it up.

Seriously!  A common church with the Greek Catholics - all in the name of Christianity?  Right!  He's playing on Ukrainian national pride, and using it to destroy Orthodoxy.  What's next?

Lord, preserve, strengthen and aid the true Ukrainian Orthodox Church!

Smiley  Okay, I am done now.  Have a great week everyone!


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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2010, 10:36:21 AM »

My gut feeling is that this is the usual Ukrainian-Catholic misinformation.  Just like that infamous proclamation that the EP agreed with Archbishop Major Lubomyr's concept of "dual communion" for Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholics.  remember how hard it was to correct that misinformation.

The real story story may turn out to be that the state is building a church or repairing an ol church and allowing the 2 churches to use if on alternate Sundays.  Liz has given the very colourful background of Patriarch Filaret and his many "conversion" (all true), but the one thing that has been consistent is that he refuses to join with the Ukrainian Catholics.
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2010, 10:55:50 AM »

My gut feeling is that this is the usual Ukrainian-Catholic misinformation.  Just like that infamous proclamation that the EP agreed with Archbishop Major Lubomyr's concept of "dual communion" for Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholics.  remember how hard it was to correct that misinformation.

The real story story may turn out to be that the state is building a church or repairing an ol church and allowing the 2 churches to use if on alternate Sundays.  Liz has given the very colourful background of Patriarch Filaret and his many "conversion" (all true), but the one thing that has been consistent is that he refuses to join with the Ukrainian Catholics.

I notice that you don't seem to take the hard line here that you take on Irenikon.  Any reason for that?

Mary
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2010, 11:50:28 AM »

I notice that you don't seem to take the hard line here that you take on Irenikon.  Any reason for that?

Mary

Please, please, please do not introduce polemics from a different board.  I beg you.
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2010, 11:57:24 AM »

I notice that you don't seem to take the hard line here that you take on Irenikon.  Any reason for that?

Mary

Please, please, please do not introduce polemics from a different board.  I beg you.

Indeed.  Please don't.

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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 12:05:02 PM »

I notice that you don't seem to take the hard line here that you take on Irenikon.  Any reason for that?

Mary

Please, please, please do not introduce polemics from a different board.  I beg you.

Indeed.  Please don't.

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Yes.  I see that was pretty dumb on my part.  Sorry.

M.
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 02:40:55 PM »

I notice that you don't seem to take the hard line here that you take on Irenikon.  Any reason for that?

Mary

Please, please, please do not introduce polemics from a different board.  I beg you.

Indeed.  Please don't.

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Good idea.  For those who do not know the background, Mary has her own group called Irenikon, but most of the Orthodox who used to post there have left.

As for this topic, let's stick to it & I say from a first reading that I  think when the real truth comes out, the Orthodox will not be concelebrating.

Where I live, may hospitals have chapels that can be used by chaplains of various church groups.  If for example, an Orthodox hospital chaplian has a moleben for an Orthodox family when requested, it does not mean that he is concelebrating.
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2010, 02:45:20 PM »

I notice that you don't seem to take the hard line here that you take on Irenikon.  Any reason for that?

Mary

Please, please, please do not introduce polemics from a different board.  I beg you.

Indeed.  Please don't.

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Good idea.  For those who do not know the background, Mary has her own group called Irenikon, but most of the Orthodox who used to post there have left.

That is just silly.  I am notified each time a person leaves the list and I keep an eye on all stats regularly.  The list is fine and healthy with plenty of Orthodox clergy and laity to give a variety of perspectives and interests. 

What you post here is nothing more than gossipy nonsense.

I don't even know you.

M.
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2010, 02:56:27 PM »

According to an article at a Catholic site, the Religious Information Services of Ukraine, the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and the Ukrainian Orthodox (Kyivan Patriarchate - not recognized by the Russian Orthodox) have agreed to build a church together
GREEK CATHOLICS AND ORTHODOX TO BUILD CHURCH TOGETHER TO CELEBRATE BAPTISM OF RUS
The construction of a new church of Saint Panteleimon began on July 29 in Kolomyia on the premises of the oncology hospital. Bishop of the Kolomyia-Chernivtsi Eparchy of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) Mykola Simkaylo and Bishop of the Kolomyia-Kosovo Eparchy of the UOC-Kyivan Patriarchate Ivan Boychuk blessed the building of the new church. The building of the church is dedicated to the 1022nd anniversary of the baptism of Kyivan Rus, reports the Information Department of the UGCC...
 http://www.risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/community/temples_church_property/36849/


Edited to be OK with the new forum policy - mike.
I did not hear about this saint before this time; thank you for posting the link. Does any body happen to know more about this martyr?
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2010, 02:58:29 PM »

I notice that you don't seem to take the hard line here that you take on Irenikon.  Any reason for that?

Mary

Please, please, please do not introduce polemics from a different board.  I beg you.

Indeed.  Please don't.

Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic discussion moderator.


Good idea.  For those who do not know the background, Mary has her own group called Irenikon, but most of the Orthodox who used to post there have left.


What did I just post?  I know you read it.

KNOCK. IT. OFF.


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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2010, 03:07:28 PM »

I notice that you don't seem to take the hard line here that you take on Irenikon.  Any reason for that?

Mary

Please, please, please do not introduce polemics from a different board.  I beg you.

Indeed.  Please don't.

Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic discussion moderator.


Good idea.  For those who do not know the background, Mary has her own group called Irenikon, but most of the Orthodox who used to post there have left.


What did I just post?  I know you read it.

KNOCK. IT. OFF.




Sorry Shultz...I'll take the blame for this one.  I see what happens and I'll be more careful!

Mary
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stanley123
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2010, 03:48:35 PM »

Why to care about what the Kiev Patriarchate is doing jointly with Greek Catholics, Baptists or whoever?
The reason i think it is important is because if I am reading the poll correctly, about 40% of Ukrainians who identify as belonging to a Church group, belong to the UOCKP.
http://razumkov.org.ua/ukr/poll.php?poll_id=300
That outstrips the percentage belonging to the UOCMP by about 10%.
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« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2010, 03:49:55 PM »

I did not hear about this saint before this time; thank you for posting the link. Does any body happen to know more about this martyr?

Actually his memory is celebrated today August 9th, according to the "Old" calendar!

St. Panteleimon was a physician who healed the sick and never took payment for his work.  He healed in the name of Christ.  The other physicians of the land were jealous that their patients were going to St. Panteleimon and reported him to the authorities.  When the saint revealed he was Christian, he was sent to be tortured, but, none of the evil deeds harmed him, so he was finally sent to be executed.  When the executioner swung his sword, it melted before it could do any harm....until it was truly his time to die, at which point he was beheaded.  When his body was thrown in the furnace, it did not turn to ash, but, remained intact, and he was buried by Christians.

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« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2010, 05:24:29 PM »

I did not hear about this saint before this time; thank you for posting the link. Does any body happen to know more about this martyr?

His English name is St. Pantaleon.

He should be sent to Siberia for some vacation time ,to meditate on what he's contemplating on doing.....My worth....

Lucky you don't know what Siberia is.
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2010, 01:26:42 AM »


I care!  I care VERY much!

This is insane!  This man, who calls himself a Patriarch....is not an Orthodox Shepherd...and never has been.  I have said from day 1, his intentions are NOT for the good of Orthodoxy or for Ukraine.  However, everyone has been supporting him and calling me a "bad" Ukrainian for picking Orthodoxy first!

In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) this man is only there to destroy Ukrainian Orthodoxy.  Period.

Finally, people are realizing the truth about him.  They've ignored all the rumors of his mistresses and children, and collaboration with KGB, appointing clergy and consecrating bishops for $$$ not because they have a calling and are prepared to lead a flock, and his words about "Ukraine not deserving her own Church" until he got to lead it, etc.  All this people ignored as simple rumors. 

Granted, we are not to judge.

However, if all of this was false...why hasn't it been proven false?

Even IF it is false and people have been badmouthing him from the start and he truly is innocent...then for the sake of the Church, if he truly wanted what's best for the Church, he would have stepped down, because all the controversy is only hurting Orthodoxy.  But, no.....let's press on.....see how much real damage we can do.

I say he has been sent there only to destroy Ukrainian Orthodoxy!  ...and he is doing a mighty fine job of it!

God bless Ukraine!  May the Lord have mercy on all those who wish to destroy His Church, may He open their eyes before it is too late, and aid those who wish to truly build it up.

Seriously!  A common church with the Greek Catholics - all in the name of Christianity?  Right!  He's playing on Ukrainian national pride, and using it to destroy Orthodoxy.  What's next?

Lord, preserve, strengthen and aid the true Ukrainian Orthodox Church!

Smiley  Okay, I am done now.  Have a great week everyone!





My first post.  Slava Isusu Chrystu Liza.  I agree Patriarch Filaret should go.  However, everything you have written about his K.G.B. connections is just as applicable to the current Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church (Kirill) who became the Russian Orthodox's rep. to the World Council of Churches in 1971 while still a young man in the Soviet Union (these were times when true Ukrainian Orthodox like Father Romaniuk were in K.G.B. prisons).  We should know what communism was like in the Soviet Union and usually only the "most trusted" by the Kremlin clerics got these gigs to World Councils from the Kremlin.  Father Gleb Yakunin was excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox Church (and he had been imprisoned by the Soviets in a political prison for refusing to surrender Orthodox faith to communism) after the fall of the Soviet Union for pointing out the K.G.B. alleged past of such as today's Patriarch Kirill of Moscow or Filaret of Kyiv.  Filaret did recant his work with the K.G.B. However.  Kirill of Moscow never did.  The Patriarch of Moscow comes to Ukraine speaking of "Russkyj Myr", the "Russian World", in keeping with Holy Russia.  Patriarch Kirill grants the largest honour for Russian Orthodoxy to a man with a criminal record and leader of Donetsk's mafia clan - Pres. Victor Yanukovych.

Liza, do you agree Patriarch Kirill's actions in Ukraine are better than Filaret's?  Patriarch Kirill's press agent said Ukrainians should call themselves "Little Russians" and follow Moscow: that Ukraine's textbooks should be changed to follow Moscow's official history as per Education Minister Tabachnyk who laughs at things Ukrainian and cannot speak the language or understand its church history.

So yes.  I agree Filaret is not a great force.  But some of the accusations you made at him (K.G.B.) could just as easily be made against the current Patriarch of Moscow if one uses the same standard.  Ukraine remains the largest Orthodox nation on Earth which cannot even be granted a fully Autocephalous church because the MP won't allow it.  The majority of Ukraine's Orthodox (millions upon millions) do not wish to join Patriarch Kirill's Orthodox Church, and they are Orthodox.  What?  Should they be forced into the Russian Orthodox Church (or the euphemistically called Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate)?

I don't want to appear a firestarter on my first post but do you really believe all Orthodox in Ukraine should be subject to the rule of the Moscow Patriarch.  The Ukrainian Orthodox Churches over here still don't recognize the 1686 transfer of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's Kievan Metropolia to Moscow away from the Ecumenical Patriarch's jurisdiction.

God Bless and not wishing to start a quarrel.  Just my two cents.  New here, so I'll learn the etiquette.

Z Bohom.
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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2010, 05:51:07 AM »

Now let us get back to the the facts please. The article linked mentions only joint prayers for the sick to take place there, not intercommunion or whatever. There have also been joint prayers between Patriarch Bartholomew and Pope Benedict, so I dont see why it is such a big thing...

As for the UOC-KP, maybe it could somehow united with the UAOC, and then go together under Constantinople, until Moscow will accept an autocephalous church for Ukraine? But well, these are just thought plays...
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2010, 06:48:55 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Ivan!

If you would take a moment to look at some of my previous posts you would see that I am most definitely NOT in support of the MP in Ukraine. 

I am all for an independent, canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  However, I do NOT trust P. Filaret's motives and feel we can do way better.

More later.

Veetayu! Again, welcome!

Liza
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« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2010, 10:12:50 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Ivan!

If you would take a moment to look at some of my previous posts you would see that I am most definitely NOT in support of the MP in Ukraine. 

I am all for an independent, canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  However, I do NOT trust P. Filaret's motives and feel we can do way better.

More later.

Veetayu! Again, welcome!

Liza


I think there are Ukrainians in Ukraine and people of Ukrainian origin here in North America who would agree with Liza.
We have to make a distinction  between the issue of an Orthodox church in Ukraine free from Russian domination and the moral character of Patriarch Filaret.

In fact my personal opinion is that the moral character of Patriarch Filaret has been an obstacle to the growth of the church in Ukraine or so people in Ukraine have told me when visiting.  But we have seen how the numbers have increased in the UOC-KP I think because of the Russophilism of the UOC-MP.  People want a Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

If we look back to the visit of the EP to Ukraine in 2008, the newspapers reported that the EP was willing to take the UOC-KP under its wing as an autonomous church to start with on the condition that Patriarch Filaret resigns and that a new metropolitan be elected.

To me this seemed like a most suitable move.  But Filaret in his pride refused to do what is best for the Orthodox Church in Ukraine and did not want to resign.

But to get back to the news article from a Catholic news source, we still have not seen any confirmation from a UOC-KP source so how do we know what the truth is?
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2010, 11:56:25 AM »


I care!  I care VERY much!

This is insane!  This man, who calls himself a Patriarch....is not an Orthodox Shepherd...and never has been.  I have said from day 1, his intentions are NOT for the good of Orthodoxy or for Ukraine.  However, everyone has been supporting him and calling me a "bad" Ukrainian for picking Orthodoxy first!

In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) this man is only there to destroy Ukrainian Orthodoxy.  Period.

Finally, people are realizing the truth about him.  They've ignored all the rumors of his mistresses and children, and collaboration with KGB, appointing clergy and consecrating bishops for $$$ not because they have a calling and are prepared to lead a flock, and his words about "Ukraine not deserving her own Church" until he got to lead it, etc.  All this people ignored as simple rumors. 

Granted, we are not to judge.

However, if all of this was false...why hasn't it been proven false?

Even IF it is false and people have been badmouthing him from the start and he truly is innocent...then for the sake of the Church, if he truly wanted what's best for the Church, he would have stepped down, because all the controversy is only hurting Orthodoxy.  But, no.....let's press on.....see how much real damage we can do.

I say he has been sent there only to destroy Ukrainian Orthodoxy!  ...and he is doing a mighty fine job of it!

God bless Ukraine!  May the Lord have mercy on all those who wish to destroy His Church, may He open their eyes before it is too late, and aid those who wish to truly build it up.

Seriously!  A common church with the Greek Catholics - all in the name of Christianity?  Right!  He's playing on Ukrainian national pride, and using it to destroy Orthodoxy.  What's next?

Lord, preserve, strengthen and aid the true Ukrainian Orthodox Church!

Smiley  Okay, I am done now.  Have a great week everyone!




Liza,

Although I respect your opinion, I must admit I think it is horrible the way you and others have discredited Patriarch Filaret as having a mistress, children, against the uniting of the orthodox church into one Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I have heard these rumors before and every time I have heard these rumors, I am told they came from Russian hierachs or the Ukrainian heirarchs in South Bouth Brook. Of course those two organizations would discredit Filaret, he fights for an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church a church not under the omophor of either Constantinople or Moscow. You claim he is damaging Ukrainian Orthodoxy yet statistics show that UOC-KP has a greater membership than the UOC-MP and that many in the past few years have left the UAOC to join with UOC-KP. It seems to me that the hierarchs in South Boundbrook are killing support for the UOC-KP due to their false rumor spreading. It is a shame that Boundbrook and the Ukrainian Church are an archdiose of the Greek Church rather than part of the independent Ukrainian church, yet Archbishop Antony, Bishop Daniel, and Met. Constantine claim they are fighting for an independent Ukrainian Church. In the past 15 years, how exactly have they fought for an independent Ukrainian church? By the Eccumenical Patriarch visiting Ukraine and asking UOC-KP and UAOC to join back with the UOC-MP which is under Moscow?

Maybe by giving Ukrainian church property to the Greek Metropolis?

Maybe by accepting a defrocked Ukrainian Catholic as a monk into the hierarchy?

Maybe the homosexual clergy in the UOCUSA that have partaken in unholy and inappropriate relationships?

Maybe some of the UOCUSA clergy who are vehomently anti-Ukrainian and discourage nything and everything Ukrainian in their services or parish life?

Oh I have heard rumors as well. Question is which rumors are true and which are meant to simply discredit the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

Liza as I know you are a good person and a passionate Ukrainian, I advise you to wach this link...it is in Ukrainian, tell me if his message is true today? http://uockp.net/mstyslav.html  It may interest you as the first speaker is the uncle of your parish priest, Met Ioan Bodnarchuk of blessed memory. You will also see Archbishop Antony stand behind Patriarch Mystyslav
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2010, 02:14:38 PM »

Quote
author=cossack 316 link=topic=29245.msg464121#msg464121 date=1282146985]

Liza,

Although I respect your opinion, I must admit I think it is horrible the way you and others have discredited Patriarch Filaret as having a mistress, children, against the uniting of the orthodox church into one Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I have heard these rumors before and every time I have heard these rumors, I am told they came from Russian hierachs or the Ukrainian heirarchs in South Bouth Brook. Of course those two organizations would discredit Filaret, he fights for an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church a church not under the omophor of either Constantinople or Moscow.

Sorry, I don't think the stoies came from Boundbrook (and I am not an American) because the stories existed during the Soviet Era and were even published in a newspaper.

Quote
You claim he is damaging Ukrainian Orthodoxy yet statistics show that UOC-KP has a greater membership than the UOC-MP and that many in the past few years have left the UAOC to join with UOC-KP.
But many claim is that there would be a united Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine if Filaret stepped down as leader.  Meaning that more people in the UOC-MP and UAOC would unite if only there was a better leader without the baggage of moral issues.

Quote
By the Eccumenical Patriarch visiting Ukraine and asking UOC-KP and UAOC to join back with the UOC-MP which is under Moscow?
I don't see any evidence that this happneed when the EP visited Ukraine in 2008.

Quote
It is a shame that Boundbrook and the Ukrainian Church are an archdiose of the Greek Church rather than part of the independent Ukrainian church, yet Archbishop Antony, Bishop Daniel, and Met. Constantine claim they are fighting for an independent Ukrainian Church. In the past 15 years, how exactly have they fought for an independent Ukrainian church?....

Maybe by giving Ukrainian church property to the Greek Metropolis?

Maybe by accepting a defrocked Ukrainian Catholic as a monk into the hierarchy?

Maybe the homosexual clergy in the UOCUSA that have partaken in unholy and inappropriate relationships?

Maybe some of the UOCUSA clergy who are vehomently anti-Ukrainian and discourage anything and everything Ukrainian in their services or parish life?


Since I am not an American or a member of the UOC-USA and have never heard these things, can I ask you to substantiate your claims:

1) What property belonging to the UOC-USA has been signed over to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of the USA or even to the EP?
2) Who is the defrocked Ukrainian Catholic monk who is now a member of the UOC-USA and are you saying that he was defrocked by his church for moral problems such as being homesexual?

If the UOC-KP is so busy estbalishing its own church in Ukraine, why then is it interferring in the life of the Ukrainian orthodox Church of the USA by stealing parishes?  That is not building Orthodox unity or Orthodox brotherhood.
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2010, 03:10:04 PM »

iza,

Although I respect your opinion, I must admit I think it is horrible the way you and others have discredited Patriarch Filaret as having a mistress, children, against the uniting of the orthodox church into one Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I have heard these rumors before and every time I have heard these rumors, I am told they came from Russian hierachs or the Ukrainian heirarchs in South Bouth Brook. Of course those two organizations would discredit Filaret, he fights for an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church a church not under the omophor of either Constantinople or Moscow.

Sorry, I don't think the stoies came from Boundbrook (and I am not an American) because the stories existed during the Soviet Era and were even published in a newspaper.

Again the rumors that came from the Soviet era came from the Russians as during the Soviet era there was no Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
 
You claim he is damaging Ukrainian Orthodoxy yet statistics show that UOC-KP has a greater membership than the UOC-MP and that many in the past few years have left the UAOC to join with UOC-KP.
But many claim is that there would be a united Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine if Filaret stepped down as leader.  Meaning that more people in the UOC-MP and UAOC would unite if only there was a better leader without the baggage of moral issues.

Again these rumors come from the Russians and parishes in the US. Is there any proof? I can say that Barack Obama where women's underwear and some republicans would back that up even though there is absoltely no proof.

Since I am not an American or a member of the UOC-USA and have never heard these things, can I ask you to substantiate your claims:

1) What property belonging to the UOC-USA has been signed over to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of the USA or even to the EP?
2) Who is the defrocked Ukrainian Catholic monk who is now a member of the UOC-USA and are you saying that he was defrocked by his church for moral problems such as being homesexual?

If the UOC-KP is so busy estbalishing its own church in Ukraine, why then is it interferring in the life of the Ukrainian orthodox Church of the USA by stealing parishes?  That is not building Orthodox unity or Orthodox brotherhood.

1. My understanding the property being asked to be turned over is a small parish in New Jersey.

2. I am not claiming that the hierarch was defrocked because of moral propblems such as homosexuality. All I know is that he was defrocked. Bishop Daniel was a member of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church until he emigrated to the United States. That is a fact. What he does in his private life is his own concern. I am not a judge, jury, or executor. If any clergy partake in immoral acts especially if any hierarchs do, then let them answer to God to be judged.

You claim he is damaging Ukrainian Orthodoxy yet statistics show that UOC-KP has a greater membership than the UOC-MP and that many in the past few years have left the UAOC to join with UOC-KP.
But many claim is that there would be a united Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine if Filaret stepped down as leader.  Meaning that more people in the UOC-MP and UAOC would unite if only there was a better leader without the baggage of moral issues.

Again who are these "many"? Are they clegy and hierarchs in the US and Canada who answer to the Eccumenical Patriarch? We all know the Eccumenical Patriarch refuses to support an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church because of the reprecusions of angering Moscow and dividing the Orthodox world. If Ukraine's church was to be recognized, it would be the world's second largest Orthodox church in terms of numbers, right behind the Russians.



The hierarchs of the UOC-USA now recognize the Patriarch of Constantinople as their primate hierarch and not the Patriarch of Kyiv and All Ukraine.
Historically, newly independent nations, such as Bulgaria, Romania or Poland for example, have established their own independent (autocephalous) Orthodox Church whose independent status is recognized by other Orthodox churches and civil governments. As such, Ukraine, now as an independent state, is also entitled to have an Orthodox church with such full self-governing status. However, Russia has historically worked very intensely to prevent such standing from being recognized for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church since such recognition would reinforce Ukraine’s status as an independent state and as a separate and distinct nation. An independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church would also endanger Moscow’s groundless claim to exclusive ancestral roots to Kyivan Rus and its Orthodoxy. Needless to say, the existence of an independent Ukraine runs directly counter to the centuries old policy interests of Moscow.
In 1995, this Russian fear of Ukrainian independence was most aptly expressed by the Patriarch of Moscow who, in a formal communiqué, strongly questioned Constantinople’s acceptance into its religious hierarchy of the UOC-USA; Metropolitan Constantine, Archbishop Antony and other clergy. In a little known formal document, Protocol 937 issued in 1995, the Patriarch of Constantinople officially and unequivocally assured the Moscow Patriarch that the absorption of the UOC-USA hierarchs into the Church of Constantinople would permanently prevent the former UOC-USA hierarchs and clergy from advocating any independence (autocephaly) for any Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine. Needless to say, since 1995, these former UOC-USA hierarchs and clergy have steadfastly adhered to Constantinople’s anti-Ukrainian and pro-Moscow directives and have not supported the autocephaly of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine. They have even refused to appear at Holodomor venues at which Kyivan Patriarchate clergy were present [despite the fact that before 1995 they were part of the same church and celebrated the Holy Liturgy together!] By these actions, the former UOC-USA hierarchs have -- wittingly or unwittingly -- undermined the development of Ukraine as an independent state.
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2010, 03:21:29 PM »

Not to dogpile onto the predictable anti-Greek Catholic sentiment of online Orthodox but...

RISU are Greek Catholic-orientated if not an official church group and I've noticed over the years their sloppiness in calling all Ukrainian Byzantine Rite groups other than themselves 'Orthodox'. It's like when some vagantes ordain an older Irish-American woman and the lefty press report it as 'Woman Roman Catholic Priest Ordained' then a few paragraphs into the story 'not recognised by the Vatican' (which means it's not Roman Catholic).

The nationalist schisms, of which this is one, have long cosied up to the UGCC for nationalist (anti-Russian) cred, as such nationalism (understandable as the UGCC is from old Polish Galicia not the Russian Ukraine) is a big part of the UGCC.
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Orest
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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2010, 06:17:44 PM »





... can I ask you to substantiate your claims:

1) What property belonging to the UOC-USA has been signed over to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of the USA or even to the EP?
2) Who is the defrocked Ukrainian Catholic monk who is now a member of the UOC-USA and are you saying that he was defrocked by his church for moral problems such as being homesexual?

If the UOC-KP is so busy estbalishing its own church in Ukraine, why then is it interferring in the life of the Ukrainian orthodox Church of the USA by stealing parishes?  That is not building Orthodox unity or Orthodox brotherhood.

1. My understanding the property being asked to be turned over is a small parish in New Jersey.

2. I am not claiming that the hierarch was defrocked because of moral propblems such as homosexuality. All I know is that he was defrocked. Bishop Daniel was a member of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church until he emigrated to the United States. That is a fact. What he does in his private life is his own concern. I am not a judge, jury, or executor. If any clergy partake in immoral acts especially if any hierarchs do, then let them answer to God to be judged.


1.  Which small parish in New Jersey, please provide the name and address then it is possible to verify that the title has been changed from the UOC-USA to ownership by the EP.  You can't say these things without verification.

2.  Defrocked by the Ukrainian Catholic Church where in Ukraine or in the USA?  Where was he ordained a Ukrainian Catholic Church.  Surely something as serious as a defrocking of a priest could be verified.

The Ukrainian catholic Church publishes lists of their priests and I don't see any proof that Bishop Daniel was ever a priest in their church.

From his official biography, I do see that he was born in Halychyna during the communist era, and thus was probably baptised in the Orthodox Church.  As an adult, after the fall of communism and the emergence of the UKrainian catholic Church in Halychyna, he went to study in a Ukrainian Catholic seminary in Halychyna and then went to the Catholic University of America, probably on a scholarship.  Then in the USA he was ordained a deacon (not a priest) in the Ukrainian Catholic Church.  Later in 2000 he converted to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  Or one could say that he returned to his original church of his baptism, the Orthodox Church.

I see from a Catholic source on the web that at his consecration as bishop in the UOC-USA, there were also three hierarchs of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the USA at the event as guests: His Eminence Metropolitan Stefan Soroka, Bishop Robert Moskal, Bishop-emeritus Basil Losten, as well as Bishop John Kudryk of Byzantine Catholic Church of America.

So, Cossack, I am asking you if Bishop Daniel was really "defrocked" as you claim why on earth would these Catholic hierarchs show up at his consecration? 
http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/news-mainmenu-49/2406-bishop-daniel-zelinsky-consecrated-for-ukrainian-orthodox-church-of-the-usa-ep

Here is the official bio of Bishop Daniel:
Quote
A native of Ukraine, Bishop Daniel of Pamphilon (secular name: Volodymyr Zelinskyy) was born in the small town of Buchach, Ternopil Region (similar to a state), Ukraine. He grew up in this region where he graduated from a local high school and enrolled in his first course of theological studies in the Seminary of Ivano-Frankivsk in September, 1993. Following his education in Ukraine, Volodymyr emigrated to the USA in 1996 to continue his education at the Catholic University of America as well as the Dominican House of Studies in Washington, DC. During this time, he was ordained to the Holy Deaconate. In 2000 Deacon Volodymyr was received into the UOC of the USA and enrolled in St. Sophia Ukrainian Orthodox Theological Seminary in South Bound Brook, NJ. With many years of theological study already completed, his advanced standing enabled Fr. Daniel to complete the Orthodox theology program in two years. He concurrently enrolled in a graduate studies program in Applied Orthodox Theology at the University of Balamand, Holy Patriarchate of Antioch (Antiochian House of Studies, USA), receiving his Master's Degree in 2002. Deacon Volodymyr was ordained to the Holy Priesthood by Archbishop Antony on May 12, 2001 in St. Andrew Ukrainian Orthodox Memorial Church, South Bound Brook, NJ. On May 22, 2002 the Archbishop tonsured him as a priest-monk (Hieromonk), with the name Daniel, at St. Elijah Ukrainian Orthodox Monastery in Dover, FL. Following his monastic tonsure, Fr. Daniel was appointed assistant editor of the Ukrainian Orthodox Word (UOW), the official publication of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA. In September 2002, he became Editor-in-Chief of the UOW and remains in that position today. Also in 2002, His Eminence Archbishop Antony appointed Fr. Daniel director of the Consistory Office of Public Relations (Communications) of the Consistory, which publishes the annual Church Calendar and manages the UOC of the USA web site.
In 2003 Fr. Daniel enrolled in the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary (Eastern Orthodox Focus), completing all the requirements for the Doctor of Ministry Degree, which was conferred upon him during the seminary commencement ceremonies in May of 2007. In 2005, Fr. Daniel was appointed Spiritual Advisor to the United Ukrainian Orthodox Sisterhoods and Spiritual Advisor to the Church Orphanage Adoption Program in Ukraine. Archimandrite Daniel has led the college mission teams to the Orphanages for the past four years. In addition, in January of 2006 Fr. Daniel was commissioned as an officer of the US Army (Chaplain Corps). He enrolled into US Army Chaplain School at Fort Jackson, SC from which he graduated in April of that year and served as a chaplain in one of the Medical Brigades of the United States Army. With the reactivation of a full academic program at St. Sophia Seminary, Metropolitan Constantine and the Seminary Board of Trustees appointed Fr. Daniel Dean of Students in 2006. At the 2007 Convention of the Ukrainian Orthodox League of the USA, Metropolitan Constantine appointed Hieromonk Daniel Spiritual Advisor of the Senior League. In that capacity and at the request of the UOL Senior Board, he also accepted the position of Chairman of the Vocations and Clergy Support Commission, which administers the Metropolitan John (Theodorovich) Scholarship Fund. This fund provides financial assistance for seminarians and clergy to pursue continuing education. During the opening Divine Liturgy of the 18th Regular Sobor of the UOC of the USA on October 3, 2007, Hieromonk Daniel was elevated to the rank of Archimandrite by Metropolitan Constantine. A few days later, on October 6, 2007, the same Sobor elected Archimandrite Daniel as Bishop-Elect for the UOC of the USA. On January 9, 2008, His All-Holiness and the Great and Holy Synod of Constantinople formally elected and ritually included Archimandrite Daniel in the Diptychs of Holy Orthodoxy as titular Bishop of Pamphilon. The Episcopal consecration of His Grace Bishop Daniel took place at St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Orthodox cathedral in Parma, OH – USA on May 10, 2008. Bishop Daniel has become known throughout the UOC of the USA and beyond as one to whom others can turn for advice, compassion and honest reflection. He is frequently invited to present lectures and reflections to various parishes and organizations – both Ukrainian and non-Ukrainian as well as Orthodox and non-Orthodox.
 
http://www.ec-patr.org/hierarchs/show.php?lang=en&id=175
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2010, 06:29:04 PM »

In 1995, this Russian fear of Ukrainian independence was most aptly expressed by the Patriarch of Moscow who, in a formal communiqué, strongly questioned Constantinople’s acceptance into its religious hierarchy of the UOC-USA; Metropolitan Constantine, Archbishop Antony and other clergy. In a little known formal document, Protocol 937 issued in 1995, the Patriarch of Constantinople officially and unequivocally assured the Moscow Patriarch that the absorption of the UOC-USA hierarchs into the Church of Constantinople would permanently prevent the former UOC-USA hierarchs and clergy from advocating any independence (autocephaly) for any Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine. Needless to say, since 1995, these former UOC-USA hierarchs and clergy have steadfastly adhered to Constantinople’s anti-Ukrainian and pro-Moscow directives and have not supported the autocephaly of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine. They have even refused to appear at Holodomor venues at which Kyivan Patriarchate clergy were present [despite the fact that before 1995 they were part of the same church and celebrated the Holy Liturgy together!] By these actions, the former UOC-USA hierarchs have -- wittingly or unwittingly -- undermined the development of Ukraine as an independent state.

Can you proove that such a document actually exists?  The EP keeps very good archives.

As for the UOC-USA refusing to participate in Holodomor Commemorations with the UOC_KP priests, I would venture to suggest this has more to do with the fact that the UOC-KP has suddenly appeared in the USA and is stealing parishes from them.  Irene asked and I will ask too what is the UOC-KP doing in the USA any way?  It wants to be the Orthodox Church of Ukraine.
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2010, 07:40:00 PM »

I'll provide more documentation once someone shows me proof that Patriarch Filaret has children or a mistress or is seeking to destroy the UOC-KP.

As Bishop Daniel bhave being a defrocked Uki Catholic priest, thats the rumor I have heard. Oh and I argue that the UOCKP are stealing parishes in the US. The parishes that have stayed to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church stayed by their own accord. It is the UOCUSA that renounced their autocephaly and any connection with the Ukrainian churches. The Ukrainian parishes that VOTED to stay with the Ukrainian Church in Ukraine voted to stay.

There is a BIG difference.
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« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2010, 12:22:49 AM »

I'll provide more documentation once someone shows me proof that Patriarch Filaret has children or a mistress or is seeking to destroy the UOC-KP.

As Bishop Daniel bhave being a defrocked Uki Catholic priest, thats the rumor I have heard.
Oh and I argue that the UOCKP are stealing parishes in the US. The parishes that have stayed to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church stayed by their own accord. It is the UOCUSA that renounced their autocephaly and any connection with the Ukrainian churches. The Ukrainian parishes that VOTED to stay with the Ukrainian Church in Ukraine voted to stay.

There is a BIG difference.

1.  It was in 1991-92 that the articles appeared in the press accusing Filaret of having a mistress and children.  Filaret’s supporters have claimed that the woman in question was his cousin and her two children.  I have done an internet search and I have yet to find any evidence that the UOC-USA was involved in any way as you originally claimed.

In 2007 members in the Tulchinska Eparchy of the UOC-KP suggested that Filaret and the woman who claims to be his daughter undergo DNA tests to prove or disprove the stories.  Unfortunately, Filaret did not comply.  It is most unfortunate, that Filaret chose not to be tested because the issue would have been solved.
http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=19153


2.  According to Ukrainian Catholic sources Bishop Daniel was never a priest but he was ordained a deacon in the USA.  There is no evidence that he was "defrocked".  If that had been the case, the 3 hierarchs of the Ukrainian Catholic Church would not have accepted the invitation to come to his consecration ceremony.
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« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2010, 01:33:22 AM »

Dear Cossack,
Further to my statements on the newspaper in Ukraine reporting the information about Patriarch Filaret and his misstress (and not the hierarchs of the UOC-USA as you claimed) see this:
Quote
Wikipedia
Patriarch Filaret (Mykhailo Denysenko)

Controversies
* Patriarch Filaret is alleged to have a common-law wife (Yevgeniya Petrovna Rodionova) and children in contravention of his monastic vows.Ru icon " [http://www.k-telegraph.kiev.ua/N8/duh.htm UOC-KP after Yevgenia Petrovna, or the celibacy vow.] " in "Kievskiy Telegraf", April 17-23, 2000 and references thereof: "Nezavisimost", "Kievskiye Vedomosti."
The number of children Filaret allegedly fathered varies depending on the source. Some sources mention two daughters, some mention that he also had a son. His daughter Vera has been interviewed by several Ukrainian and Russian newspapers] .
http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/767812

So the 3 newspapers that carried the stories are:
1. Kievskiy Telegraf", April 17-23, 2000
http://k-telegraph.kiev.ua/N8/duh.htm
2. Nezavisimost",
3. Kievskiye Vedomosti."

You asked about who the people in Ukraine were, who were concerned about the morality of Patriarch Filaret as a church leader:

Quote
* Several church hierarchs of UOC and UAOC accused Filaret for improper financial dealings"The monk Filaret not only did not obey the Church ban as he should have as a believer, and did not repent, but through falsification took into his sole possession all financial assets of the UOC. Under the auspices of the Churches' unification the robbery of all Orthodox believers of Ukraine by Filaret took place."

The letter signed by UAOC and UOC hierarchs published in "Holos Ukrayiny", May 29, 1997]

*Also, a statement condemning Filaret for corruption and former connection with the Soviet authorities and KGB was issued by prominent Ukrainian political figures, members of the Verkhovna Rada, who were formerly imprisoned by the Soviet regime for their pro-Ukrainian political views."It is not an accident that the exarch of the Ukrainian Church Metropolitan Filaret seeks through any means a way to change his political slogans, in order to secure the support of the new government and maintain his corrupt system of church control... It was Metropolitan Filaret (Denysenko) who was closely connected with the KGB and who, in order to keep the CPSU powers, happily served the godless government not in the interest of the church, but in the interest of his career and in order to maintain full control of the Ukrainian church in his own hands. This repels people from the church, disqualifies the missionary work of the honest clergy, deepens the hatred and promotes the schism."
The statement of January 20, 1992, cosigned by Vyacheslav Chornovil, Serhiy Holovatyi, Ivan Boiko and others (26 signatories)]

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/767812
see also:
http://www.risu.org.ua/content.php?page_id=48&l=en
http://www.religio.ru/dosje/20/23_print.html Filaret (Denisenko)

So we have here 2 groups of people who are troubled by moral issues:
1.  Ukrainian Orthodox hierarchs.
2. Former Ukrainian dissidents such as Chornovil, who carries a lot of influence in Ukrainian society and others who issued the statement quoted above.

Again, I want to emphasize that just because someone is troubled by the moral background of Patriarch Filaret, it does not mean that person is against the rise of an autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine. And just because a person belongs to the UOC-USA or the UOCC, it does not follow that they are against an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine.
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« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2010, 03:29:46 PM »



As Bishop Daniel bhave being a defrocked Uki Catholic priest, thats the rumor I have heard.

Ah, so you admit that you are spreading false rumours ohere on the internet?  Do you think that is the mark of an Orthodox Christian to spread rumours about a hierarch.
Bishop Daniel was never a Ukrainian Catholic priest nor was he defrocked.
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« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2010, 04:05:08 PM »

Irene, the story of Bishop Daniel being a defrocked Uki Catholic priest is simply a "rumor". Just saPatriarch Filaret having children and a mistress are "rumors".

As fof Filaret refusing to join the EP, why should the Ukrainian church go under Constantinople? The Ukrainian church should NOT be under Moscow, or Constantinople. how would going under Constantinople make it an independent church?
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« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2010, 04:08:45 PM »

Irene, the story of Bishop Daniel being a defrocked Uki Catholic priest is simply a "rumor". Just saPatriarch Filaret having children and a mistress are "rumors".

As fof Filaret refusing to join the EP, why should the Ukrainian church go under Constantinople? The Ukrainian church should NOT be under Moscow, or Constantinople. how would going under Constantinople make it an independent church?
Wouldn't it be easy to verify if such a public person had children or not?
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« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2010, 08:38:20 PM »

Irene, the story of Bishop Daniel being a defrocked Uki Catholic priest is simply a "rumor". Just saPatriarch Filaret having children and a mistress are "rumors".

As fof Filaret refusing to join the EP, why should the Ukrainian church go under Constantinople? The Ukrainian church should NOT be under Moscow, or Constantinople. how would going under Constantinople make it an independent church?
Wouldn't it be easy to verify if such a public person had children or not?

Do we have any lawyers as members who could explain the difference to Cossack please?

Bishop Daniel joined the Ukrainian catholic Church after the fall of communism and came to the USA to study at the catholic University of America.  While in the USA he was ordained a deacon in that church.  The records list him as a deacon not a priest.  There are no records to show he was ever defrocked.  Ever seen anything in print? No.  Moreover, two hierarchs from the Ukrainian Catholic Church came to his consecration in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  It is you Cossack who is spreading unfounded rumours in print on the internet.  Do you know the meaning of the word libel?

Now as for Patriarch Filaret: I already mentioned the articles published in newspapers.  Also a woman has come foreward claiming to be his daughter.  I cited an article above in which people from Filaret's own church demanded that he take a DNA test to proove or disproove if the woman is his daughter.  Notice how Filaret refuses to take the DNA test?

And please name that parish in NJ you claim sold over the property to the EP.
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