Author Topic: Vagante follies  (Read 4264 times)

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Offline The young fogey

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Vagante follies
« on: November 26, 2002, 12:05:35 PM »
http://www.angelfire.com/ma/marycentral/

Get the feeling these people aren’t sure what they are?  ;D
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Hypo-Ortho

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2002, 12:31:02 PM »
Anglican-Catholic Byzantine Orthodox Church?

Gee, Serge, something for everyone who's "apostolic"!. ;)  Lines of apostolic succession from both the East and the West.  Eastern and Western liturgical recensions.  Perfect vagantes for those who subscribe to a branch theory of the Church!

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Offline Schultz

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2002, 12:53:50 PM »
Wow.

This takes the cake.  I really don't know what to say. :P

I particularly like the pictures of the "Patriarch" and the "Metropolitan".  "Mar Stephanos" is wearing a mitre that looks like it was manufactured by the kids in his Sunday school.  http://www.angelfire.com/ma/marycentral/theolo.html

I'm still amazed that things like this crop up all over the place.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2002, 12:58:09 PM by Schultz »
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Offline Dimitrius

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2002, 08:42:47 PM »
I read the description that this strange vagnate church posted about itself on the site, but I can’t see where they claimed to received true Apostolic succession from. Who are they claiming  ordained their “Patriarch”. I don’t think any true Orthodox or Catholic biship was involved in any of their ordinationsGǪ.

Did anyone who read that site see where they claim they got their Apostolic succession from? Did they mention what Bishop ordained their clergy?

Offline The young fogey

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2002, 11:07:17 PM »
I saw their 'lines-of-succession' page, a dead giveaway of a Western-provenance vagante group. I think their main claim comes from a Bishop Carlos Duarte Costa, a real Catholic bishop who got in trouble with the Catholic Church for some reason (leaving in the 1940s) and started his own group, the Igreja Catolica Apostolica Brasileira. These dudes are four or five consecrations removed from this gentleman, so chances are the Catholic Church would recognize them as bishops.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2002, 12:25:48 PM by Serge »
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Offline Schultz

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2002, 10:17:46 AM »
I also noticed that they have "succession" from Utrecht and even have a page dedicated to the See of Utrecht and the Old Catholics.  

Regardless, they're still whackos.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2002, 01:42:27 PM »
Yes, I saw that - they claim 'descent' from poor old Arnold Mathew, who at one point in his chequered career was an Old Catholic bishop but later broke with them, as the vagante site tells you.

A rogues' gallery: if the group claims to be founded by/descended from one of these fellows, it's bogus!

Joseph Rene Vilatte - 1800s French Catholic-turned Protestant preacher in Wisconsin who then claimed to be ordained and consecrated by some Portuguese gent in India who claimed to be in the Syrian Church. Worked with the Episcopalians awhile in WI, became Catholic again, then did his own thing again, ordaining lots of folks, then repented and died in a French Catholic monastery.

Arnold Harris Mathew - A nice but muddleheaded, weak-willed Englishman from the end of the 1800s-beginning of the 1900s who was a Catholic priest-turned-Unitarian-turned-Anglican minister-turned-Catholic layman-turned-Old Catholic bishop-turned-freelance bishop-turned (whew, finally) Anglican layman (he tried to get reinstated in their ministry but they said no). Some Theosophists tricked him into ordaining/consecrating them.

Carmel Henry Carfora - Catholic priest from Italy who worked in the US in the early 1900s, then was made a bishop by a European prince, de Landes Berghes, consecrated by Mathew. These dudes claim to be Old Catholics but they're not.

Abdullah Aftimios Ofiesh - He was a real Orthodox bishop (Archbishop Aftimios), under the Russians in 1920s America, who in the jurisdictional chaos of the times was made archbishop of his own church, the American Orthodox Church or some such (which was real, if largely on paper - the Russians in the American metropolia created it), with some success, converting some Episcopal ministers to it. Unfortunately, apparently he also ordained/consecrated some crackpots, who started the spurious groups claiming descent from him today. Eventually he got fed up with the jurisdictional farce, married a young Arab woman before a judge in 1933 and disappeared from the church scene. He died in 1966.

Carlos Duarte Costa - see earlier posting.

Oh, and here is 'ecclesiastical six degrees of separation' in action, as claimed by these folks: http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/materdei/as1.html

Like I said, chances are the Catholics recognize all this. The Orthodox say, 'so what?'
« Last Edit: November 27, 2002, 02:35:11 PM by Serge »
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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2002, 11:06:35 PM »
Serge,

Actually Catholics don't recognize all that.  Our friend Dan the Man (not Dan Lauffer!) called up the Archdiocese of Baltimore when we found out someone we knew was "Bishop" of the Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc., and they said that they do not accept anyone from Old Catholic lineage in America except the Polish National Catholic Church.  Perhaps that doesn't mean the issue is closed for Roman Catholics, but I'd say that since Roman Catholics insist that the ordination happen "according to the will of the Church" and since many of these ordinations were for money, it probably has invalidated all of them according to RC standards.

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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2002, 12:08:22 AM »
Thanks for the info, anastasios. It makes sense since the PNCC is the only real Old Catholic church in the US.
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Offline sinjinsmythe

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2002, 12:16:42 AM »
Serge you are the vagante expert here.  Here is another criteria for a vagante church: they use angelfire or geocities as their webhost.  Another thing is under one of the photos it has a caption that reads 'ABp Sergei with Apostolic succession' and in the photo he is showing sort of documents.  What a joke  ::)  Here is another thing: their name is way too long...I mean come on how many descriptive adjectives can you put before the word church?
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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Vagante follies
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2002, 01:49:41 AM »
Good calls, Sinjin (St John?). Although not everybody who uses Angelfire for hosting is a vagante - by that criterion I'd be an antipope! Long names usually are another giveaway, yet the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese is a real Orthodox eparchy of the patriarchate of Constantinople. And for decades the real Russian Orthodox metropolia in the US (now the OCA) was similarly the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church*. I agree that long lists of apostolic succession are a giveaway.

Western and fake Eastern vagante: desperate to prove some link in the past to the Catholic Church.

Sincere Eastern vagante: believes his little outfit is the only remnant of the Orthodox Church left on earth. Claims a line of succession to a group that for their purposes was the Church once but now isn't anymore.

More on Arnold Harris Mathew: basically he tried to get the Old Catholics started in England (which was why the OCs made him a bishop to begin with) and failed. He thought there were real congregations waiting to join him but there weren't any. Both as an Old Catholic bishop and later as an independent bishop he attracted a ragtag bunch of clergy: Anglicans who lusted after being bishops, a fellow ex-Catholic priest but one who'd done time in jail (Mathew OTOH was kind but really, really confused), and a couple of Theosophists, who started something called the Liberal Catholic Church, which still exists but is microscopic (pretty traditional liturgy, way liberal New Age beliefs). I think during his independent-bishop phase (before he died as an Anglican layman) he was excommunicated by Pope St Pius X by name.

*As I've explained before, the reason these Orthodox groups used those terms (Greek Catholic) was because many of their congregations began as Catholic churches and have those words in their charters - keeping them in the groups' legal names meant winning court cases to keep church buildings after congregations became Orthodox.
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