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Author Topic: Do Eastern Churches have concerns with valid conefessions, masses, etc  (Read 3576 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dave in McKinney
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« on: August 03, 2010, 09:26:27 PM »

I noticed that a common concern for RC's is whether their confession or Mass / Eucharist was valid.  For instance perhaps the priest didn't properly say the confessional formula , or not use a proper rubric during Mass, etc...

Is this a common concern for Eastern churches as well?

Topic's name changed in order not to cause confusion among nonnative English speakers - mike
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2010, 09:46:58 PM »

One thing I'm sure of is that if an Orthodox priest were to conduct a baptism in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer" instead of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", or use such terminology in any other liturgical hymn, litany or prayer, he would very quickly find himself standing before his bishop. Which wouldn't be much fun.  Shocked
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2010, 10:15:18 PM »

One thing I'm sure of is that if an Orthodox priest were to conduct a baptism in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer" instead of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", or use such terminology in any other liturgical hymn, litany or prayer, he would very quickly find himself standing before his bishop. Which wouldn't be much fun.  Shocked

Ok, well yeah, I'm not speaking of anything blatantly heretical...
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2010, 10:31:31 PM »

One thing I'm sure of is that if an Orthodox priest were to conduct a baptism in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer" instead of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", or use such terminology in any other liturgical hymn, litany or prayer, he would very quickly find himself standing before his bishop. Which wouldn't be much fun.  Shocked

Ok, well yeah, I'm not speaking of anything blatantly heretical...

Can you give us some examples of what you mean?
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2010, 10:44:49 PM »

Can you give us some examples of what you mean?

Quote
Prayer of Absolution
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and Prayer of Absolution
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..

So instead of saying above prayer the priest shortens it to just something like "I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"...

Does that help?
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2010, 10:45:25 PM »

No.
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2010, 10:49:20 PM »

No.

No to which question?
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2010, 10:51:41 PM »

One thing I'm sure of is that if an Orthodox priest were to conduct a baptism in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer" instead of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", or use such terminology in any other liturgical hymn, litany or prayer, he would very quickly find himself standing before his bishop. Which wouldn't be much fun.  Shocked

Well, no fun for the priest, anyway.  angel
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2010, 11:02:28 PM »

Can you give us some examples of what you mean?

Quote
Prayer of Absolution
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and Prayer of Absolution
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..

So instead of saying above prayer the priest shortens it to just something like "I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"...

Does that help?


Dave, not sure where that prayer comes from. Never heard it.

The "validity" of a sacrament in Orthodoxy does not depend solely on the "mechanics" of the service. Take our view of apostolic succession. The Roman Catholics, IIRC, accept the apostolic succession of certain groups not in communion with the Pope of Rome, regardless of whether or not they agree with whatever the Pope says about dogma. In the Orthodox Church, there is no apostolic succession without the apostolic faith and communion with the Church. Therefore, if a bishop leaves the Church and ordains others and they teach something heretical, there is no apostolic succession. The would all need to be ordained if the Church chose to receive them as priests, unless some sort of extreme economia is applied.

Likewise, a marriage is a marriage if both parties agreed to such of their own free will, as they say at the beginning of the service. I do not think consummation has anything to do with it. IIRC, Fr. John Krestiankin says that sterility, if known, is a canonical impediment to marriage in the first place, but does not mean the marriage can be annulled. I'm not sure we do annullments.

Of course, things should always be done properly and in good order. A baptism done with something other than triple immersion in water is allowable in extreme cases such as imminent death, but St. Basil says, IIRC, that, should death not come, baptism should be done the way it's supposed to be done, albeit with applicable caveats. If a layman baptizes because there is no priest present (such as in 19th century Alaska, when the priest visits only once a year or more infrequently), then the priest simply reads the proper prayers and then does the Chrismation and Communion.
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2010, 11:03:13 PM »

Can you give us some examples of what you mean?

Quote
Prayer of Absolution
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and Prayer of Absolution
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..

So instead of saying above prayer the priest shortens it to just something like "I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"...

Does that help?

A priest takes an oath at ordination that he will not deviate from the forms prescribed in the various Service Books.   However there are accepted shortenings which are allowed and every priest learns these while at seminary or during his training with an older priest.

The above form of absolution which you give will of course catch the ear of God and absolution will occur.   No problems.

But that kind of shortened prayer should be for an emergency, just before the train hits the person tied on the railway tracks.

Another example might be if an elderly priest with failing memory recites the wrong words over the Bread and the Chalice, maybe getting the formulas back to front.  In that case I would be sure that the Holy Spirit understands the intention and the change of the Bread and Wine takes place as it should.

I think that the important thing here is that God *is" well-intentioned and benevolent towards the human race and can cope with our unintentional errors.

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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 08:54:30 PM »

Can you give us some examples of what you mean?

Quote
Prayer of Absolution
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and Prayer of Absolution
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..

So instead of saying above prayer the priest shortens it to just something like "I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"...

Does that help?

I think it depends on whether the intent of the effect of the Sacrament is sufficiently expressed. In the shortening of that prayer, I believe the intent to absolve the penitent of their sins through the Priestly ministry of the confessor is expressed and thus that the penitent will be absolved and cleansed of sin. Of course, if a Priest were to make such shortenings of the rubrics unnecessary and carelessly he would heap sin upon himself. However, that doesn't meant that the penitent would not be absolved.

However, there certainly are instances where there has been speculation as to the mechanics of the Sacrament and whether or not it can properly convey its effect even in an Orthodox context. For instance, there really is no explicit epiclesis in the Roman canon, and thus whether or not it can really convey the Body and Blood of Christ is regarded as uncertain. As such, when the Roman canon was translated to WRO, a Byzantine epiclesis was added for certainty of the intent of the transformation being expressed.

So, it is true that we look to more than just form, matter, and intent, but these realities are certainly understood as among the necessary principles to properly convey sanctification.
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2010, 07:54:56 AM »

I recently came back to RC Church from protestantism, and after listing to Catholic Radio and reading catholic.com there seems to me a lot of questions and concern about "did I receive a valid confession", "did I receive a valid eucharist", etc and someone put it earlier the "mechanical" aspect bothered me that boils down the sacrament to nothing more than the right formulation of words.
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2010, 09:29:47 AM »

Dave, what you are seeing is the legalism of the Roman Catholic Church in action, the result is that many RC feel a loss of validity in their sacraments (especially with the modern innovations that they see daily is some dioceses). In the Orthodox Church the reliance is more on the Most Holy Trinity than upon men. We know that occassionally (although rarely) a priest may make a mistake and mispeak a prayer but we believe that the Holy Spirit understands the true intent and through the Holy Angels corrects the mistake making the form correct and Holy. A priest (or bishop) for that matter can not innovate new forms of sacraments without the agreement of the Church as a whole, to do so would take that priest or bishop out of communion withthe Holy Church, as a result changes in the way the Orthodox serve the sacraments have remained stable and resulted in slow to change over the history of the Church (example St James Liturgy  to the Liturgy of St. Basil to the Litugy of St John Chrysostom).

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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2010, 07:17:37 PM »

I recently came back to RC Church from protestantism, and after listing to Catholic Radio and reading catholic.com there seems to me a lot of questions and concern about "did I receive a valid confession", "did I receive a valid eucharist", etc and someone put it earlier the "mechanical" aspect bothered me that boils down the sacrament to nothing more than the right formulation of words.

You are setting up a false dichotomy. It's not just "not mechanical" or "only mechanical". The mechanism can very well be one of the fundamental aspects without being the only one.

Certainly, as I said, we are slow to recognize those rites where the intent of the Sacrament is not sufficiently expressed. As such, there is some element of form, matter, and intent aside simply from the doctrinal and ecclesiastical content of the congregation.
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2010, 07:49:10 PM »

You are setting up a false dichotomy. It's not just "not mechanical" or "only mechanical". The mechanism can very well be one of the fundamental aspects without being the only one.

Certainly, as I said, we are slow to recognize those rites where the intent of the Sacrament is not sufficiently expressed. As such, there is some element of form, matter, and intent aside simply from the doctrinal and ecclesiastical content of the congregation.

I agree with your comment bolded above (in a theoretical & ideal sense) and I think it agrees with Fr Ambrose comments earlier.  My comments are reflecting my experience and wonder at the all too common questions on those media outlets.  It almost seems to be a paranoia or maybe scrupulosity in making sure the mechanical aspects are perfect.  But then again there seems to be a certain lack of aesthetic beauty in the Mass (music and buildings) and lack of warmth or understanding that we are supposed to be ONE celebrating in the midst of the angels and saints.  People don't want to greet each otehr before the Mass during the time that the priest asks everyone to, and during the exchange of peace only a handful act like they really mean it.

Having said that the RC is still our best option at this point...
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2010, 07:56:33 PM »

Having said that the RC is still our best option at this point...

Whose best option?
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2010, 09:41:11 PM »

Me & my family's best option...
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2010, 10:16:44 PM »

I recently came back to RC Church from protestantism, and after listing to Catholic Radio and reading catholic.com there seems to me a lot of questions and concern about "did I receive a valid confession", "did I receive a valid eucharist", etc and someone put it earlier the "mechanical" aspect bothered me that boils down the sacrament to nothing more than the right formulation of words.

One of the components of a "valid" sacrament was the question of intent, as well as the question of words or form. For example - if a very badly translated consecrated formula ("shed for all") is combined with a priest who may or may not believe in the True Presence, it was not an academic question for many believers as to whether or not it really was the Eucharist being celebrated.
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 10:45:07 PM »

I recently came back to RC Church from protestantism, and after listing to Catholic Radio and reading catholic.com there seems to me a lot of questions and concern about "did I receive a valid confession", "did I receive a valid eucharist", etc and someone put it earlier the "mechanical" aspect bothered me that boils down the sacrament to nothing more than the right formulation of words.

One of the components of a "valid" sacrament was the question of intent, as well as the question of words or form. For example - if a very badly translated consecrated formula ("shed for all") is combined with a priest who may or may not believe in the True Presence, it was not an academic question for many believers as to whether or not it really was the Eucharist being celebrated.

Are you implying that there are priests who properly pronounce, yet do not believe in the True Presence?
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2010, 11:13:46 PM »

Are you implying that there are priests who properly pronounce, yet do not believe in the True Presence?

I personally don't think this is common, but it's possible. I do think if someone takes care in following the rubrics, nobody should need to worry about it. I am curious though what goes through some priest's heads when they depart from the rubrics. (My parents insist that at one parish they've visited, they've done away with the "lavabo" entirely.) The communion assembly line mentality (say, 2 seconds per communicant) IMHO has done much to dilute (Roman) Catholic belief in the real presence.
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2010, 09:36:01 AM »

Please remember that this is an Eastern Orthodox Convert Issues Forum. The issues you are raising deal largely with the Roman Catholic Church and are generally not found within the canonical Orthodox Church.Please continue this topic but utilize discussion to compare the Orthdox practice with those you wish to discuss.

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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2010, 09:37:17 AM »

The Eastern Orthodox maintains a sense of "Mystery" about the Sacraments. We do not try to fully explain or add unintended legal interpretation upon the Sacraments. Orthodoxy has remained constant in its observance of the Sacraments and confronts changes to practices directly  in a manner that holds stability and reverence in its observances---for example you will not find the term "for all" used in canonical Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2010, 06:47:24 PM »

Me & my family's best option...

I don't know how faithful to the topic of this thread it is, but I would be interested to hear you explain why you think that is.
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« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2010, 06:49:29 PM »

I agree with your comment bolded above (in a theoretical & ideal sense) and I think it agrees with Fr Ambrose comments earlier.  My comments are reflecting my experience and wonder at the all too common questions on those media outlets.  It almost seems to be a paranoia or maybe scrupulosity in making sure the mechanical aspects are perfect.

I agree that Latin Christianity via Scholasticism came to speculate too much on mechanical matters of validity significantly beyond simply expression of intention to "confect" the Sacrament.
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« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2010, 06:50:26 PM »

if a very badly translated consecrated formula ("shed for all")

 Huh
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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2010, 01:29:46 AM »

if a very badly translated consecrated formula ("shed for all")

 Huh

This was a reference to Roman Catholic ICEL translations of the Novus Ordo Mass. This probably isn't the best thread to complain about it. The Latin-rite words of institution are being corrected (in English) next year, so this particular complaint will no longer be valid. But was there a concern that the ICEL "dynamic" translations had deformed the Novos Ordo liturgy - especially the words of institution - to the point that some Catholics no longer thought its Eucharistic celebrations were valid. (I'm not even discussing the Novus Ordo itself, but rather the English "translation").

I do think though that if a "deformation" of the liturgical texts definitely impacts one's confidence in sacramental "validity". Which is a roundabout way of getting back to the original poster's question. If form and intent are the two linchpins underpinning sacramental validity in the Roman Catholic church, perhaps the mirror should not be held up to the East but first to the current rites as they are practiced in the West.
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« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2010, 01:33:42 AM »

To the OP - I understand exactly what your concerns are, Dave.  For many years I went from RC church to RC church, trying to find one where the priests didn't ad-lib the entire Mass, make up their own words to the consecration, bring in dancing girls, etc. etc.

To answer your question, all these things are MUCH less of an issue in the Eastern Catholic rites and certainly not in the Eastern Orthodox churches.  While I have seen priests occasionally leave out a litany or move it to the wrong part of the liturgy, they would NEVER presume to actually change the words.  And the sacraments are much more likely to be administered properly.

Hope this helps! Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2010, 03:39:01 AM »

To the OP - I understand exactly what your concerns are, Dave.  For many years I went from RC church to RC church, trying to find one where the priests didn't ad-lib the entire Mass, make up their own words to the consecration, bring in dancing girls, etc. etc.

 Shocked Huh

Where do you live? I've never seen nor heard anything like that in RC parishes in Finland.
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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2010, 12:36:30 PM »

To the OP - I understand exactly what your concerns are, Dave.  For many years I went from RC church to RC church, trying to find one where the priests didn't ad-lib the entire Mass, make up their own words to the consecration, bring in dancing girls, etc. etc.

 Shocked Huh

Where do you live? I've never seen nor heard anything like that in RC parishes in Finland.

I live in Southern California, but grew up in Missouri.  So are you telling me that the liturgical abuses which followed Vatican II didn't affect the RC churches in Finland? 
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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2010, 02:10:40 PM »

So are you telling me that the liturgical abuses which followed Vatican II didn't affect the RC churches in Finland? 

I don't know what's considered a liturgical abuse and I haven't attended so many RC masses so I can't assure that they doesn't exist. That said I haven't seen anything like clown masses or altering the consecration formula. The most weird thing I've seen has been acoustic guitars.
 
If you like I can ask an RC friend of mine whether he has heard or seen something more out of line.
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« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2010, 02:18:16 PM »

To the OP - I understand exactly what your concerns are, Dave.  For many years I went from RC church to RC church, trying to find one where the priests didn't ad-lib the entire Mass, make up their own words to the consecration, bring in dancing girls, etc. etc.

 Shocked Huh

Where do you live? I've never seen nor heard anything like that in RC parishes in Finland.

I live in Southern California, but grew up in Missouri.  So are you telling me that the liturgical abuses which followed Vatican II didn't affect the RC churches in Finland? 

I live and experience the Catholic Church in Pennsylvania, and in New York, Ohio and the southern border states.  I have not see what people from the western part of the country describe from the Novus Ordo either, so it is definitely a regional thing in the United States as well as cross-national, and within other nations.  There is no blanketed set of liturgical abuse that can be accounted for everywhere and in all dioceses...Just isn't real, isn't even really possible since not all Catholics are innovators.

M.

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« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2010, 02:19:35 PM »

To the OP - I understand exactly what your concerns are, Dave.  For many years I went from RC church to RC church, trying to find one where the priests didn't ad-lib the entire Mass, make up their own words to the consecration, bring in dancing girls, etc. etc.

 Shocked Huh

Where do you live? I've never seen nor heard anything like that in RC parishes in Finland.

I live in Southern California, but grew up in Missouri.  So are you telling me that the liturgical abuses which followed Vatican II didn't affect the RC churches in Finland? 

I live and experience the Catholic Church in Pennsylvania, and in New York, Ohio and the southern border states.  I have not see what people from the western part of the country describe from the Novus Ordo either, so it is definitely a regional thing in the United States as well as cross-national, and within other nations.  There is no blanketed set of liturgical abuse that can be accounted for everywhere and in all dioceses...Just isn't real, isn't even really possible since not all Catholics are innovators.

M.

argh!!...sorry Thomas...I was looking at a specific note and not at where I was posting.  I've got it now!!

M.
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« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2010, 02:24:45 PM »

I recently came back to RC Church from protestantism, and after listing to Catholic Radio and reading catholic.com there seems to me a lot of questions and concern about "did I receive a valid confession", "did I receive a valid eucharist", etc and someone put it earlier the "mechanical" aspect bothered me that boils down the sacrament to nothing more than the right formulation of words.

One of the components of a "valid" sacrament was the question of intent, as well as the question of words or form. For example - if a very badly translated consecrated formula ("shed for all") is combined with a priest who may or may not believe in the True Presence, it was not an academic question for many believers as to whether or not it really was the Eucharist being celebrated.

Are you implying that there are priests who properly pronounce, yet do not believe in the True Presence?

This particular thing I have observed in both the Catholic Church and in Orthodoxy. 

I don't say this to be critical, but I say it to indicate that the Church has ways of protecting the trusting faithful from those instances where the liturgy is neither valid nor licit...

So there are not only invalid and illicit liturgies possible singly but sometimes they are both invalid and illicit yet the believer must be accounted some grace from their own trust and faith.

I don't see that sort of discernment as legalistic at all.  Seems to me it is cuts to the heart of the passage of grace in our lives.

Mary
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« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2010, 06:35:58 PM »

if a very badly translated consecrated formula ("shed for all")

 Huh

This was a reference to Roman Catholic ICEL translations of the Novus Ordo Mass. This probably isn't the best thread to complain about it. The Latin-rite words of institution are being corrected (in English) next year, so this particular complaint will no longer be valid. But was there a concern that the ICEL "dynamic" translations had deformed the Novos Ordo liturgy - especially the words of institution - to the point that some Catholics no longer thought its Eucharistic celebrations were valid. (I'm not even discussing the Novus Ordo itself, but rather the English "translation").

I do think though that if a "deformation" of the liturgical texts definitely impacts one's confidence in sacramental "validity". Which is a roundabout way of getting back to the original poster's question. If form and intent are the two linchpins underpinning sacramental validity in the Roman Catholic church, perhaps the mirror should not be held up to the East but first to the current rites as they are practiced in the West.

I was mostly curious about you taking issue to "shed for all" (I don't really know that much about this issue), but this may very well not be the appropriate place to discuss that.  Undecided
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« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2010, 06:51:20 PM »

Welcome to St. Scaredycat's

"You're new in the suburbs, and it's Sunday morning, so you drive over to the nearest Catholic Church -- uh, make that community. You walk into the modern cement structure and are accosted by a GREETER, who welcomes you with a moist handshake... "

This was placed in the New Oxford Review years ago by English Catholics who were waging war on liturgical abuse.

I won't put the whole article here since, although it can give you a laugh, it can also be offensive/saddening to sincere Catholics who care about good reverent liturgy.

So for the whole article please go here and it is the second one from the bottom of the page.
http://www.newoxfordreview.org/adgallery3.jsp


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« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2010, 07:12:57 PM »

There are two key elements with the consecration and the changing of the bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ. In the Eastern liturgies, there is both the words of institution and an epiclesis calling down the Holy Spirit to bless the offerings. Curiously, I've read that older Oriental liturgies have a mostly epicletic element. The ancient liturgies used in the city of Rome (in Greek) from Hippolytus contain both elements. Roman Catholic theology has downgraded the importance of the epiclesis although the Roman Canon has kind of an implied epiclesis in the "Quam oblationem" prayer, and a "split epiclesis" with the "Supplices te rogamus" prayer, where God (the Holy Spirit not being specifically invoked) is asked to bless both the gifts and those receiving the gifts.

The words of institution are from the Last Supper:
Mat 26:28 "for this is my blood of the [new] covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."
Mark 14:24 "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the [new] covenant, which is poured out for many."
Luke 22:20 "And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you."

What's interesting in the Latin translations is that they chose to translate it as follows:
Mat 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new covenant, which shall be poured out for many unto remission of sins."
Mark 14:24 "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the [new] covenant, which shall be poured out for many."
Luke 22:20 "And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which shall be poured out for you."

The future reading is theologically correct and also attested also in Coptic translations. Obviously this is a reference to the slaying of the paschal Lamb on Good Friday - thus the Coptic and Latin translations arguably back up the Johannine account of the Last Supper.

Anyway, the words here I'm focusing on are "for many". Thus in the Roman Canon:

"Hic est enim Calix Sánguinis mei, novi et aeterni testamenti; mysterium fidei: qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum."

As said, "will be shed" is one of the unique features of the Roman consecration formula and attested in both the Latin Vulgate and Old Latin. "The Mystery of Faith" (mysterium fidei) was vaccuumed out of the formula in 1970 but otherwise this is intact in the Novus Ordo.

The ICEL folk put this into English has it as follows:

"This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all men"

This is one page which discusses this in depth:
http://www.latin-mass-society.org/promult.htm

Oddly enough ICEL was going not only against the authority of ancient translations of the Greek New Testament, but also the Council of Trent.

 http://www.cmri.org/novusordo.html

Quote
Looking to the efficacy of the Passion, we believe that the Redeemer shed His Blood for the salvation of all men; but looking to the advantages which mankind derive from its efficacy, we find, at once, that they are not extended to the whole, but to a large proportion of the human race... With great propriety, therefore, were the words, ‘for all,’ not used, because here (in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist) the fruit of the Passion is alone spoken of, and to the elect only did His Passion bring the fruit of salvation.

The "many" are the elect. The "all" reading implies a kind of universal salvation. In any case, there's no shortage of traditionalist Catholics who question the validity of the ICEL liturgy, this mistranslation being one of the main sticking points.

Obviously, the text of the liturgy matters. If you have a defective form, you've hobbled one of the three main pillars of "validity" - the others are intent and succession of Holy Orders.

The 2011 version!

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/samples-priest-intro.shtml

"Take this, all of you, and drink from it: for this is the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant; which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins."
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« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2011, 10:37:24 AM »

Is a "conefession" a confession which takes place in the cone of silence?



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« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2011, 11:18:23 AM »

Me & my family's best option...

Are you too holy so you can falter in these important aspects? What do you believe is the reason your family does not deserve the best? Don't throw rocks at messenger, please....

Take Holy Water from Roman Catholic Church and Holy Water from Eastern orthodox Church and let the one resisting more decide which option is best. Why. because the tranmsformation of water into Holy Water is done by God like Holy Eucharist too. So if the transformation fails for Holy water then God does not fail so something is trouble. Look here and marvel: http://stmaryofstamford.org/holywater.html

The problem is not priest mispelling words is using unleavened bread and no wine, and reduction of prayers. Holy Liturgy has step A, B, C, D...Z. If you do A then B then skip C and D then modify E...Z what you get? You don't know. In Eastern orthodox Church you get what apostles get> this was when South Italy was under Byzantine rule: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbcL4mkNfzM
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« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2011, 01:15:25 AM »

I thought I knew a lot about the Orthodox Church, but no one ever told me about the Holy Water Challenge!!!
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2011, 11:14:55 AM »

Yes, there is an historical document telling about this.
This is the Holy water transformation in Eastern orthodoxy with NO SALT like in the Early Church:
http://stmaryofstamford.org/holywater.html

TAP WATER BEFORE BLESSING IN EASTERN ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY:

TAP WATER AFTER BLESSING:

as a resutl of prayer to God to come to bless the Water.

In Roman Catholicism the prayer was changed to a New Invention and now they need to add salt.
Because the changes in sacraments process in Romano catholicism, Eastern orthodox Church does not allow people to partake them. Would God not know that flesh has blood. Then why he said that Holy Copmmuniopn has both wine and bread? Why Riomano Catholics took wine out ?


One Romano Catholic Saint came and said Eastern orthodoxy is the true religion.
Thomas Aquinas was found together with unbaptized aborted babies, so not in Heaven because of some errors in his teachings or at least this is my understanding from this story. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/another_champion_of_abortion_becomes_defender_of_life_the_story_of_stojan_adasevic/
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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2011, 11:19:04 AM »

I am not saying the sacraments are bad. What I am saying is that because the steps were changed they can be sacraments no more. Would God not know that flesh has blood. Then why he said that Holy Copmmuniopn has both wine and bread? Why Riomano Catholics took wine out ?

I don't think the validity (in Orthodox eyes) has to do with the matter used but with the fact that they're used by Catholics who are not in union with the Orthodox.

Also, the wine was not ever "taken out", it is always there on the altar being consecrated during Mass.  Just that for a long time it was not always offered to the people, for various reasons both good and bad.  And it is almost always made available to the people today, so your argument is moot.

Also: I still have no idea what you're talking about re: the holy water.  Perhaps some other Orthodox wouldn't mind explaining it to me? thanks!
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2011, 11:33:41 AM »

This is the story in Romanian written by Petru Movila Archbishop of Kiev that lived at that time: http://acvila30.wordpress.com/2011/07/09/mihai-viteazul-catre-papistasi-%E2%80%9Cvoi-nu-sunteti-mar%C2%ADturisitori-ai-dreptei-credinte-caci-nu-aveti-harul-sfantului-duh-in-biserica-voastra%E2%80%9D/

Anyhow, you don't understand what Holy water is?
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« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2011, 11:47:24 AM »

This is the story in Romanian written by Petru Movila Archbishop of Kiev that lived at that time: http://acvila30.wordpress.com/2011/07/09/mihai-viteazul-catre-papistasi-%E2%80%9Cvoi-nu-sunteti-mar%C2%ADturisitori-ai-dreptei-credinte-caci-nu-aveti-harul-sfantului-duh-in-biserica-voastra%E2%80%9D/

Anyhow, you don't understand what Holy water is?

I understand what holy water is.  I don't understand what you are saying about it.

I also don't understand what it has to do with the thread.
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« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2011, 05:41:40 PM »

The idea is that side by side Romano Cathoplic Holy water resist less that Eastern orthodox Holy Water.

The idea is that when Romano Catholics and Orthodox prayed to God to discover where is the truth God made Romano Catholic Holy water green and smelly .

So the idea is that something needs to happen in Romano Catholicism to change the perception of God. Whomever loves Romano Catholics does not want to let them on a wrong direction.
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« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2011, 05:52:38 PM »

The idea is that side by side Romano Cathoplic Holy water resist less that Eastern orthodox Holy Water.

The idea is that when Romano Catholics and Orthodox prayed to God to discover where is the truth God made Romano Catholic Holy water green and smelly .

Ya gotta jest love it!!.... laugh
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