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Author Topic: Israel vs Palestine  (Read 5378 times) Average Rating: 0
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Br. Max, OFC
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« on: February 16, 2004, 08:51:02 PM »

It's no secret where I stand on this issue.  I know were some others stand on this issue as well.  I figure this will make a rather interesting thread for posting news centered around this debate.

--

Friday, February 13, 2004

Israel doesn't deserve brickbats

By KAREN L. DUNN
GUEST COLUMNIST

The media are sullying Israel's character. Frequently criticizing Israeli actions and promoting an image of Israelis as Nazis, the media ignore all the good Israel does for the world. For more than 40 years, while still struggling for its own survival, Israel has been providing substantial humanitarian assistance to people worldwide.

Israel is a tiny country, about the size of Massachusetts, with a population of merely 6.3 million. Humanitarian efforts began only 10 years after Israel became an independent country, when it established the Center for International Cooperation (also known as MASHAV) in 1958.

Specializing in the development of human resources, the center's mandate upholds the right of all people to live in dignity, free from poverty, with the right to food, security, health care, education, economic sustainability, gender equality, preservation of natural resources, child welfare and care for the aged. From soil cultivation programs in Kenya to computer education in Ethiopia, from medical programs in Jordan to seminars on cattle husbandry in India, Israel has helped alleviate hunger, disease and poverty in many developing countries.

In the '70s, Israel broadened its humanitarian aid agenda by granting safe haven to refugees and foreign nationals in distress such as 303 desperate Vietnamese refugees who now live side by side with Jewish-Israelis in Israel; 66 of the refugees escaped Vietnam in an ill-constructed boat and were rebuffed by four countries before being rescued by an Israeli ship. In 1993, Israel became the first country to grant refuge to Bosnian-Muslims displaced by the civil war in Yugoslavia. These refugees benefit from ongoing assistance and were granted full rights as Israeli citizens. During the conflict in Kosovo, Israel provided shelter to hundreds of displaced ethnic Albanians and Kosovo refugees.

Israel has provided humanitarian aid in the wake of natural disasters beyond its borders, helping disaster victims on almost every continent. In December 1988, an earthquake shook the Soviet Republic of Armenia, killing 30,000 people and leaving 50,000 homeless. Joining the international effort, Israel sent Israeli Defense Forces search and rescue and medical teams. They treated hundreds of patients and brought 61 Armenians to Haifa for special medical treatment. When a massive earthquake killed more than 15,000 people in Turkey in 1999, Israel set up a 120-bed field hospital and sent more than 100 tons of relief supplies and a 250-person search and rescue team to Turkey. The team saved 12 survivors and uncovered the bodies of 146 victims. Tireless efforts resulted in the miraculous rescue of a 3-year-old Turkish boy more than 130 hours after the earthquake struck.

Countries ravaged by war and terrorism have received aid from Israel. During the Yugoslavian civil war, the Rwandan civil war and the conflict in Kosovo, Israel not only granted safe haven to refugees but also sent humanitarian aid to the regions. More than 100 tons of medical aid, food and supplies were sent to Bosnia, Rwanda, Macedonia and Albania. During the Rwandan civil war, Israeli medical personnel treated 3,000 Rwandan refugees. Israel donated 80,000 measles vaccinations to the refugee camps and taught agricultural techniques and disease prevention to help resettle returning refugees. During the conflict in Kosovo, an Israeli field hospital offered the only available medical help to 30,000 refugees.

More than 140 countries have benefited from Israel's international humanitarian aid. Israelis assist the needy even while under constant threats to their security and an economic downturn. Israel has suffered seven wars and two intifadas since its independence 56 years ago and still views humanitarian aid as an integral part of its role in the international community.

Rather than being condemned, Israel should be praised. Instead of destroying, Israel is rebuilding. Instead of intentionally hurting, Israel is helping. Instead of fostering terror, Israel is providing hope.

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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2004, 10:39:32 PM »

It's no secret where I stand on this issue.  I know were some others stand on this issue as well.  I figure this will make a rather interesting thread for posting news centered around this debate.

Yes, that's true. Grin

The problem is that both sides are wrong. So we are left with choosing the lesser evil.
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2004, 11:06:58 PM »

I recall growing up in my home parish with an Orthodox Arab family who were cleverly dispossessed of their home and property by the Israeli government. I learned exactly how they were "legally" thrown out of their house with worthless promissory notes in 'payment'. Later, I realized that not only Orthodox Christians were treated this way, but thousands of Moslem Palestinians also. Hence, I understand why the situation exists as it does today in this light. I cannot side with the Israelis. However, I don't believe Christians will today fair any better under the PLO, maybe worse.
My vote was : Neither.

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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2004, 11:24:34 PM »

How about we support the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem? Smiley

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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2004, 11:29:58 PM »

Quite a slante poll don't you think? Our only option for supporting Palestine is through the PLO? Hmmm.....
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2004, 11:46:01 PM »

Yeah I didn't notice that. What about supporting Palestinians and NOT the PLO?

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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2004, 12:11:58 AM »

Anastasios, I totally agree with you.  I won't vote in this poll because I don't agree with the choices that we're given.  I cannot support Israel, as many, many Christians are persecuted by them.  I can't support Israel when they are badly persecuting my Orthodox brothers and sisters.  Of course, they also persecute the Arab Catholics as well.  Anastasios, I would be happy to vote for your suggestion!
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2004, 01:14:07 AM »

Quite a slante poll don't you think? Our only option for supporting Palestine is through the PLO? Hmmm.....

Considering there was no such thing as a "Palestinian people" prior to the PLO, what other option should there be?
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2004, 01:36:24 AM »

How about we support the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem? Smiley

anastasios

Great idea, anastasios. How? Huh

{As to replacing 'PLO' above with "Palestinians" (by any definition), my vote would still be "neither".}

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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2004, 02:06:42 AM »

Considering there was no such thing as a "Palestinian people" prior to the PLO, what other option should there be?


Usual inaccuracies and propoganda.
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2004, 02:07:31 AM »

Br Max,

and prior to the 1910's there weren't any Israelis; your point?

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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2004, 02:07:55 AM »

Max, your last remark is of the sophomoric kind as expected.  

Anastasios, why not 'Palestinians'?  That was my first noted observation when viewing the choices offered.  (Clearly the poll is fashioned in such a way as to prevent one to vote for the Palestinian side without associating oneself with Arafat and co.)  Of course, that also happens to be my answer.

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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2004, 02:17:31 AM »

I reset the poll according to your suggestions. Please vote again.
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2004, 02:21:18 AM »

Anastasios, it seems appropriate to move the thread to the free-for-all, though in my opinion the subject has been rehashed enough to merit the garbage can for a good time-out period.  Maybe we can talk about German, Chinese, or Indian politics.  Those areas have enough a sizable population to merit our attention.

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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2004, 02:28:54 AM »

N.B. To dispel possible misunderstanding, I am not requesting an abrogation of the thread, but offering a comment.
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2004, 03:24:50 AM »

This may have been discussed elsewhere on the forum but I've noticed over the years a good number of Americans who somehow equate the state of Israel with the Biblical Israel. I've even heard fundementalists (perhaps on some whacky radio program?) trying to build up support for the current Israeli state by quoting passages from the Old Testament which make mention of the people of Israel. A far cry from the Orthodox understanding of the "New Jerusalem"!
Strange indeed.
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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2004, 08:17:23 AM »

I was thinking for us those of us who are old:

Greaser

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Mod

Hmm?

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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2004, 09:32:21 AM »

Quote
This may have been discussed elsewhere on the forum but I've noticed over the years a good number of Americans who somehow equate the state of Israel with the Biblical Israel. I've even heard fundementalists (perhaps on some whacky radio program?) trying to build up support for the current Israeli state by quoting passages from the Old Testament which make mention of the people of Israel. A far cry from the Orthodox understanding of the "New Jerusalem"!

That is 19th-century Protestant dispensationalism, vs. the understanding of 1,800 years of Christendom (including 'the Orthodox understanding of the "New Jerusalem").
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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2004, 09:34:07 AM »

No surprise: I voted with what turns out to be the majority at 70%.

Quote
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or

Mod

Given that choice, Mod.
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« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2004, 10:55:07 AM »

Mod -- yep. Good Choice!
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« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2004, 11:42:34 AM »

Even those who aren't so old are aware of those pitched battles.

Mod of the hard variety.

And I'm with Serge and 70% of the rest of the pollsters re: this issue.
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« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2004, 02:34:48 PM »

Usual inaccuracies and propoganda.

OH?  Can you show me references to a Palestinian people prior to the last century?  If the Palestine would choose to identify with a real ethnicity, that would be another story, but you don't hear about edomites or philistines or any of the other historic peoples of that area.  Instead we always hear about an artificially created, ethnically and culturally heterodox "people" called the Palestinians.  
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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2004, 02:44:15 PM »

Br Max,

and prior to the 1910's there weren't any Israelis; your point?

anastasios

There weren't?  Have you not read your bible?  The kingdom of Israel has come and gone many times over the centuries.  Funny thing is, with one short exception - the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem - from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD until 1948 there was no autonomous kingdom in the land of Palestine. One empire after another controlled the region.  SO to say that there is a distinct “Palestinian” people is erroneous.  It would be tantamount to suddenly saying the British are illegally occupying the lands of the YORKSHIREITES.  Whatever the validity of claims Britain has to Yorkshire; there never existed an ethnic or culturally separate Yorkshire.

Furthermore, there have been Jews in Galilee and in the lands of Palestine from the fall of the Jewish kingdom through until the reestablishment of the Israel in 1948.  So you’re claims that there were not Israelites prior to 1910 in accurate.

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« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2004, 02:44:23 PM »

Bro Max,

Can you show me references to "Americans" prior to the turn of the 18th century?  Everyone in the world seems to hate an artificially created, ethnically cultural heterodox "people" called "Americans".
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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2004, 02:48:49 PM »

schultz: AH but America exists as a nation. Plaestine does not, has not, and should not.
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« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2004, 02:51:16 PM »

America stands for democracy, freedom, life and liberty.  

While Israel has her problems, she is far better than Palestine where DEATH and murder are worshiped.  Know what the hottest thing amongst Palestinian youth is?  Trading cards with homicide bombers on them - and you would support these people???
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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2004, 03:18:12 PM »

The colonists were referred to as "Americans" during the Revolutionary War in Parliament and on the street.

Yet there were not a "nation" yet.

As for the trading cards, our own youth do much the same.  Take a walk down to Carson Street and look at all the Tupac Shakur and Snoop Dogg t-shirts people are wearing.

The Culture of Death is everywhere, Brother Max.  Open your eyes and see it outside your own back door.
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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2004, 03:21:29 PM »

If the Palestinians had a viable military, perhaps one funded by American dollars, do you think people would still resort  to these horrific suicide bombings?
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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2004, 05:36:38 PM »

schultz: and I condemn that here as well shultz.  Should I ignore the culture of death there just because it's far away?
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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2004, 05:39:28 PM »

If the Palestinians had a viable military, perhaps one funded by American dollars, do you think people would still resort  to these horrific suicide bombings?

DEATH is a part of their religion.  To die as a "martyr" means a free ticket to heaven and lots of virgins to __________ when you get there.  There is also the little matter that as part of their religion they MUST subjugate, kill or convert everyone who is NOT muslim.  But, please feel free to back them.  

A variety of factors contributed to this warning:

1) Insulting Black American sub-culture
2) Associating Palestinians with Islam and then saying they all support death
3) Other private issues.

while we're at it, you never retracted your statement to Jennifer about her supposedly supporting abortion, either.
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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2004, 05:59:46 PM »

Quote
schultz: and I condemn that here as well shultz.  Should I ignore the culture of death there just because it's far away?  

I never said you shouldn't condemn the Suicide Bomber Trading Cards.  But you're acting like that stuff only happens over there and not in your own backyard.

Quote
DEATH is a part of their religion.  

I wasn't aware that the Palestinian Christians, who are discriminated against by the Israeli government because they are not Jewish, considered DEATH to be a part of their religion.

Get your head out of your rear, Brother Max, and turn the TV off.  Not every Palestinian is a Muslim.  In fact, every Palestinian I know personally (probably about thirty or so) is a Christian of some stripe, from Orthodox and Catholic to one particularly well spoken BAPTIST.  

Face facts.  If any other country in the world was doing what Israel is doing, it would be condemned.  I know you can "call a spade a spade".
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« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2004, 06:06:17 PM »

My sympathies lie firstly with suffering Christians of Palestine, and secondly with those Muslims who wish to live in Peace. These Muslims do exist.
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« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2004, 06:07:22 PM »

DEATH is a part of their religion.  To die as a "martyr" means a free ticket to heaven and lots of virgins to __________ when you get there.  There is also the little matter that as part of their religion they MUST subjugate, kill or convert everyone who is NOT muslim.  But, please feel free to back them.  

What do you mean "their" religion?  I know many Palestinian Christians who lived in Palestine for generations.  Should they just leave since they're Arab?  How can YOU have the right to tell them what they should do?
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« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2004, 06:08:39 PM »

My sympathies lie firstly with suffering Christians of Palestine, and secondly with those Muslims who wish to live in Peace. These Muslims do exist.

Ditto.
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« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2004, 06:17:11 PM »

Br Max,

Palestianians are not all Muslims. Get it straight.  And if you want to get enlightened about this issue, then you need to watch "Jerusalem, An Occupation Set in Stone?" which was produced by a JEWISH producer and which shows what evils the Israelis are working against Palestinians--including destroying a Greek Orthodox Church!!!

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« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2004, 06:34:35 PM »

Bogoliubtsy, ditto to what you said.  Not all Muslims are radical fundamentalists.  There are many peace-loving Muslims who don't persecute anyone--Jews or Christians.  They just want to be left alone to live their lives in the towns where they live--many of their families have lived there for centruries.  

BOTH sides need to stop the killing!  Yes, the suicide attacks are wrong--but so is much of what the Israelis do.
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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2004, 07:21:08 PM »

Face facts.  If any other country in the world was doing what Israel is doing, it would be condemned.  I know you can "call a spade a spade".  

A veteran friend of mine was active in Cyprus with the British forces.  He asserts that had he conducted himself in the manner the I.D.F. does, he would have been court-marshalled.

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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2004, 07:25:50 PM »

Friends, please accept my thanks for the defence you have put up on this thread.
It is much appreciated.

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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2004, 08:22:10 PM »

I never said you shouldn't condemn the Suicide Bomber Trading Cards.  But you're acting like that stuff only happens over there and not in your own backyard.I wasn't aware that the Palestinian Christians, who are discriminated against by the Israeli government because they are not Jewish, considered DEATH to be a part of their religion.

Get your head out of your rear, Brother Max, and turn the TV off.  Not every Palestinian is a Muslim.  In fact, every Palestinian I know personally (probably about thirty or so) is a Christian of some stripe, from Orthodox and Catholic to one particularly well spoken BAPTIST.  

Face facts.  If any other country in the world was doing what Israel is doing, it would be condemned.  I know you can "call a spade a spade".  

again, there is no such thing as an ethnic Palestinian.  There are Christians in the regions of Palestine of VARIOUS ethnic descents, but not one ethnically Palestinian person at all.  The Palestinian culture is one of Islam and all that that faith promotes.  Sure there are Christian communities scattered in, but to say that they are Palestinian is a mistake.  They are no more Palestinian than are the Beduin peoples are.  

Funny thing is - there are TONS of countries doing MUCH MUCH worse than the Israelis are being accused of and not a word is being spoken.  BTW - did you even bother to read the article I posted in the opening of this thread?
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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2004, 08:47:20 PM »

again, there is no such thing as an ethnic Palestinian.  There are Christians in the regions of Palestine of VARIOUS ethnic descents, but not one ethnically Palestinian person at all.  The Palestinian culture is one of Islam and all that that faith promotes.  Sure there are Christian communities scattered in, but to say that they are Palestinian is a mistake.  They are no more Palestinian than are the Beduin peoples are.  

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion.  If they say they're Palestinian then they're Palestinian.  

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Funny thing is - there are TONS of countries doing MUCH MUCH worse than the Israelis are being accused of and not a word is being spoken.  BTW - did you even bother to read the article I posted in the opening of this thread?


1)  That doesn't make what the Israelis are doing right.  2)  Can you prove that "not a word is being spoken" about atrocities taking place in other countries?  In fact, I think that you support a war "freeing" a country from a brutal dictatorship.  I'm sure you spoke many words about the oppressed Kurds.  Also, I'm sure many of us are very aware of atrocities taking place in countries like North Korea.  

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Elisha
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« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2004, 10:05:58 PM »

again, there is no such thing as an ethnic Palestinian.  There are Christians in the regions of Palestine of VARIOUS ethnic descents, but not one ethnically Palestinian person at all.  The Palestinian culture is one of Islam and all that that faith promotes.  Sure there are Christian communities scattered in, but to say that they are Palestinian is a mistake.  They are no more Palestinian than are the Beduin peoples are.  

Funny thing is - there are TONS of countries doing MUCH MUCH worse than the Israelis are being accused of and not a word is being spoken.  BTW - did you even bother to read the article I posted in the opening of this thread?


I definitely read it - it's just that it doesn't convince me of anything.  The fact that Isreal isn't "as bad as" other countries is besides the point.  It is a geo-political focal point, people are being discriminated against and most importantly, our Christian brethren are being persecuted and Holy Land sites abused.  AND OUR TAX MONEY IS FUNDING IT!!!  THAT is why we disagree.  You can whatif all you want about Muslims wanting to take over all of Isreal, but it isn't reality.
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katherine 2001
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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2004, 10:51:37 PM »

Not to mention all these Evangelical/Charismatic Christians who back Israel whatevery they decide to do, just because of their views of the End Times and the Rapture.  It's perfectly okay if Christians are being persecuted by them, as long as they stay on God's good side by supporting the Israelis.
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katherine 2001
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« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2004, 10:53:41 PM »

And no country today is doing as much evil as Hitler and Stalin did--so maybe we shouldn't protest what anyone does, including Saddam.  After all, has he done as much evil as Stalin and Hitler?
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