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Author Topic: John of Damascus' exegesis of De 4:15 is impossible  (Read 36785 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #450 on: August 08, 2010, 08:06:05 PM »

Not one of those is God saying He wants us to image Him.


There is only your blather He does.

Not scripture.
Once again, that argument works only if you can prove that God speaks solely through Scripture.  If you cannot, then the thesis you're defending on this thread disintegrates.


From Page 4 of Weston's A Rulebook for Arguments:

3. Start from Reliable Premises

No matter how well you argue from premises to conclusion, your conclusion will be weak if your premises are weak.



As long as you cannot prove the strength of your premise that God speaks ONLY through the Scriptures, you will never convince us of your conclusion that God never says, "Make images of Me."

Incorrect, only affirmative claims can be proved.

To illustrate: Prove to me a thrown stone won't fly into outer space and hit the moon.

You cannot prove it will not, that is impossible because its a negative, it might if thrown hard enough.

Make the claim affirmative, then the claim can be tested. The stone is thrown as hard as possible, and if it can't reach outer space, you proved the claim wrong.
Do you realize the impact of what you just said?  YOU are the one asserting a negative.  The statement that God speaks solely through the Scriptures, and its logical equivalent that God does not speak apart from the Scriptures, are negative statements.  By your own definition, you are making statements that CANNOT logically be proven.  So then, not only are you asserting as premise a negative statement you're not equipped to prove, you're asserting as premise a statement that is logically impossible to prove.  You have defeated yourself!

I know God doesn't speak apart from Scripture since the apostles went to be with the LORD.
Inherent in this statement is the premise that God spoke only through the Apostles, which is logically equivalent to saying that God does not speak apart from the Apostles.  Another negative statement you cannot possibly prove.

If you want to argue He does, then you must produce God's Word apart from scripture, that we can test to see if its really God's Word.
I don't want to argue that God does speak apart from the Scriptures.  I just want to show you how impossible it is for you to prove that He does not.

No, its a positive. Its easy to falsify, cite the Word of God that appears outside of scripture.

Try again.


Word of God that appears outside of scripture... well since Christ is also the Word... Jesus' life from the time after He was twelve (the temple incident) to the time He started His ministry. Well there you have it, the Word of God outside of scripture. Who knows what words Jesus spoke during this time frame, but it was the Word of God not recorded in scripture.
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« Reply #451 on: August 08, 2010, 08:37:10 PM »

These injunctions were given to the Jews on account of their proneness to idolatry. Now we, on the contrary, are no longer in leading strings. Speaking theologically, it is given to us to avoid superstitious error, to be with God in the knowledge of the truth, to worship God alone, to enjoy the fulness of His knowledge. We have passed the stage of infancy, and reached the perfection of manhood. We receive our habit of mind from God, and know what may be imaged and what may not.-Apologia of St John Damascene Against Iconoclasts, Part I.

Well, well.  A quote from St. John.

Israel also claimed superior knowledge of God to "know what may be imaged and what may not."

CSB  Hosea 8:1 Put the horn to your mouth! One like an eagle comes against the house of the LORD, because they transgress My covenant and rebel against My law.
 2 Israel cries out to Me: My God, we know You!
 3 Israel has rejected what is good; an enemy will pursue him.
 4 They have installed kings, but not through Me. They have appointed leaders, but without My approval. They make their silver and gold into idols for themselves for their own destruction.
 5 Your calf-idol is rejected, Samaria. My anger burns against them. How long will they be incapable of innocence?
 6 For this thing is from Israel-- a craftsman made it, and it is not God. The calf of Samaria will be smashed to bits!
 7 Indeed, they sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. There is no standing grain; what sprouts fails to yield flour. Even if they did, foreigners would swallow it up.
 8 Israel is swallowed up! Now they are among the nations like discarded pottery.
 (Hos 8:1-8 CSB)

Where is the claim to "superior knowledge," and more importantly its basis, as the Icon of the invisible God had not yet torn the veil of Moses from our hearts in the days of Hosea?

As the Gospel says, "Come and See." He calls in His last words: "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire,...and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

"24Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. 25He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. 26Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? 27He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? 28Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. 29We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. 30The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. 31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. 32Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. 34They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

Those who walk in the way of the Pharisees, claiming to be Moses' disciples, not knowing whence Christ is or "I Am," have been warned.

Quote
8:1. Like a swift eagle comes the Assyrians because Israel has rebelled against God's law including its prohibition against images.
You mean idols: God commanded images on Sinai, and blessed them in Solomon's Temple, and avenged them against Belshazzar's desecration.

8:2 Israel protests they know God, that they did this by God's mystical direction (cp 8:4).
2 εἰς κόλπον αὐτῶν ὡς γῆ ὡς ἀετὸς ἐπ' οἶκον κυρίου ἀνθ' ὧν παρέβησαν τὴν διαθήκην μου καὶ κατὰ τοῦ νόμου μου ἠσέβησαν
4 ἑαυτοῖς ἐβασίλευσαν καὶ οὐ δι' ἐμοῦ ἦρξαν καὶ οὐκ ἐγνώρισάν μοι τὸ ἀργύριον αὐτῶν καὶ τὸ χρυσίον αὐτῶν ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς εἴδωλα ὅπως ἐξολεθρευθῶσιν

Nothing about God, His direction, or His mystery in there, so I do not know what you are finding "mystical."

Compare:
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:22-23 NKJ)
Compare:
11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

26 And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear.
27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.”
28 And Peter answered Him and said, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.”
29 So He said, “Come.” And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. 30 But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!”
31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”

9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

(Mat. 2:11, 14:27-33, 28:9, 16-20)


NKJ  1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
 (1Co 12:1-2 NKJ)

15 He is the icon of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Col. 1:15-23).

Btw, would you translate Colossians 1:15 as "He is the idol of the invisible God?"

Evil spirits pretending to be God's leading carried them away into idolatry. These were confident they knew God, that superior knowledge enabled them to " avoid superstitious error, to be with God in the knowledge of the truth, to worship God alone, to enjoy the fulness of His knowledge."-Ibid.

The Holy Spirit as God overshadowed the Holy Theotokos into the Incarnation. She conceived God and she and the saints confident that they saw God, that superior knowledge enabled them to " avoid superstitious error, to be with God in the knowledge of the truth, to worship God alone, to enjoy the fulness of His knowledge."


8:4 God contradicts their claim, their religious experiences were not from Him, He had nothing to do with their apostasy from the Law.

John 14:9-10 contradicts your claim.  It was His good pleasure that the fullness of His Godhead take flesh and dwell among us, that we worship the icon of the invisible God to the glory of God the Father, and has everything to do with our keeping His law.

Hosea 8:5 I will have nothing to do with your young ox, O Samaria; my wrath is burning against them; how long will it be before the children of Israel make themselves clean? (Hos 8:5 BBE)

God calls Israel "O Samaria" because they mixed paganism into true religion by copying Jeroboam's image of the true God:

St. John quotes St. Leontius of Neapolis in calling the iconoclasts "atheists" because they mixed Judaism into the true religion by copying the Pharisees image of the True God.

28 So the king sought advice. Then he made two gold calves, and he said to the people, "Going to Jerusalem is too difficult for you. Israel, here is your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt." (29 He set up one in Bethel, and put the other in Dan.
 30 This led to sin; the people walked in procession before one of the calves all the way to Dan.
 (1Ki 12:28-30 CSB)

Each gold calf represented God, He was being worshiped through them.

The god of the Hindus wasn't the God of Israel, nor the God of the Church. So the invisible God  Whose Icon is worshipped wasn't worshipped through your golden calves.

God spurns the image and asks "How long will they be incapable of purity."

That God speaks of impurity rather than  idolatry confirms the calf image was used to worship Him.

So you think idolatry is pure?

8:6 "For this thing is from Israel-- a craftsman made it, and it is not God." Their impurity is astonishing given the origins of this image are clearly known, a craftsman made it, not God, therefore He will smash it to pieces.

He raised His Icon from the dead. Not astonishing, as the origins of this icon are clearly shown, the Holy Spirt God with the Holy Theotokos made Him, and the fullness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell among us.  "My LORD and My God."

It is clear God rejects worship via an image:

He accepted it from the Magi, He accepted it from St. Thomas and the Apostles. He accepts it from us.

NKJ  Exodus 32:8 "They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said,`This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!'" (Exo 32:8 NKJ)

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And[e] of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (Jn 1 NKJ).


As God does not change, as Jesus is God, it is certain Jesus does not accept worship via an image, regardless whether its three dimensional, or two, for it is written "any kind of icon" is forbidden as an image of Him:

DT 4:15 And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
Dt 4:16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure[eikona], the likeness of male or female.- Benton (lxx)

As Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, it is certain He tells us "See!" as He said to His Apostles on the 8th day of Creation, the 1st day of the New Creation, and He accepts our worship of Him as He accepted His Apostles, who taught us so.

Quote
MANTRA:Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
 (1Jo 5:21 NKJ)

So the deloved disciple, the Theologian, warns us that "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes (ooops! he couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), which we have looked upon (ooops! he couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested (ooops! He couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), and we have seen it (ooops! they couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), and bear witness (oops! evidently false witness, and the Truth was not in him) , and shew unto you ((ooops! he couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that)) that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us (ooops! He couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that)Wink 3That which we have seen (ooops! He couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that) and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."  (Luke 1:26-38; John 3:13-4: Numbers 21:8-9; I John 1:1-4).  

Don't know what then to make of his warning  (I John 2)

"18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.  25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.  26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear (ooops! He can't do that: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear (ooops! He can't do that: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (ooops! We can't: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that)...4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (ooops! He couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that) is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." (Luke 1:26-38; John 3:13-4: Numbers 21:8-9; I John 1:1-4).
Your interpretation of St. Luke is impossible.
The Word took flesh and dwellt among us, and we behold His glory, the glory of the icon of the invisible God, Who took the likeness of man, in Which it was the good pleasure of the Father for the fullness of the Godhead to dwell therein, so that seeing Him we see God. John 1: 14, 14:9; Colossians 1:15, 19.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 08:38:30 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #452 on: August 08, 2010, 08:43:20 PM »

Public education indoctrinated me against God, but the proofs for creationism convinced me to read the Bible. When I read it, the power of its words captured me, I knew God was speaking to me through scripture. I became a believer in Christ. Christ authorized His apostles, so I believed in them.

There was no pope or patriarch guiding me...

God spoke to me through scripture.

But I wasn't saved until I heard a radio preacher exegete Romans 10:10

 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 (Rom 10:9-10 NKJ)

He insisted God cannot lie, that if I did precisely what God said to do, I would be saved.

So I did precisely that, repenting of my evil ways, and confessing Jesus is LORD before my fellow Merchant Mariners, before the eyes of angels and men.

And the preacher was right about God, He doesn't lie. He saved me then, when I believed.

AND He can save you, do not merely listen to the word, do what it says,  precisely, and seasons of refreshing will come upon you, the LORD Jesus Christ Himself, will come to you:

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

Very interesting answer. God spoke to you through scripture. No argument there. God does speak through Scripture. But it wasn't enough, was it? It took the interpretation of another to lead you to your belief, just as it happened to the man of Ethiopia.

Alfred, that's exactly what we Orthodox do. You chose to follow the interpretation of a radio preacher. We chose to follow the interpretation of the saints throughout history who have followed what they were taught from the time of the Apostles. And it's a choice I make daily, with no regrets.

Incorrect, he merely point the text out, I had overlooked it:

NKJ  Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? (Rom 10:14 NKJ)

The preacher informs salvation exists, he doesn't mediate salvation.


I didn't follow his interpretation, after he alerted me, I read the text for myself...I only observed he was right, God doesn't lie, if you do precisely as Paul says, you will be saved, no doubt about it.

Doubt stops many, but its unreasonable doubt.
You said you listened to the preacher's exegesis. You said "He insisted God cannot lie, that if I did precisely what God said to do, I would be saved. So I did precisely that...." Your words state very clearly that you followed his instructions.

To say "I didn't follow his interpretation....I only observed he was right" is quite contradictory. He did indeed present you with a thought, an interpretation, an exegesis that resulted in action on your part.

Now you claim that the preacher did nothing more than point out the text to you - one that I'm sure you had already read. So in which post do you speak truthfully?

Sorry, Alfred. You backtrack on too many things. You are inconsistent in your statements. You do not give clear statements, choosing rather to overwhelm with sheer volume of repetition of your own quotes.

When you are prepared to humble yourself enough to participate in honest discussion, then I might consider further participation in this thread.

By your own admission, you created your own canon of Scripture. By your own admission you follow your own interpretations in violation of the warning in the first chapter of the Apostle Peter's Second Epistle, and demonstrating the effects outlined in the third chapter of that same Epistle. By your own admission you worship your own Christ, one who is not fully human while forgoing none of his full divinity. You have created your own religion.

But let me leave you with this hope, Alfred: the Holy Orthodox Church - the faith handed down to us from the Apostles through many generations of saints - is willing and waiting to welcome you when you are ready to enter her.
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« Reply #453 on: August 08, 2010, 08:45:42 PM »


The Word took flesh and dwellt among us, and we behold His glory, the glory of the icon of the invisible God, Who took the likeness of man, in Which it was the good pleasure of the Father for the fullness of the Godhead to dwell therein, so that seeing Him we see God. John 1: 14, 14:9; Colossians 1:15, 19.

It was worth slogging through this entire thread over the past two days in order to get to this post.

VERY nicely done!!

Mary
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #454 on: August 08, 2010, 08:47:59 PM »

Is there any particular reason why your repeat this when I gave you the original, which you quote on the top?

Your posts are too difficult for me to keep up with, so complex, quotes and replies in different places, icons everywhere.

I skim over them somewhat, I am always in a hurry,  but often fail to see any relevance to the discussion.

There is too much clutter. If you really want my response to an argument, its best if you put that at the very top, not in a quote, so I won't miss it, then you can copy paste all that other stuff to your heart's desire...I dont read it anyway.


Oh...thanks for that verse...its clear in context it refers back to 8:5, and the wording confirms the calf idol was being used as an object to worship the true God.

There you go again!  Dictating the rules of this debate and not allowing anyone to deviate from them.  How controlling of you. Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 08:51:27 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #455 on: August 08, 2010, 08:56:49 PM »

During my research I happened upon this gem:

God Does Not Give His Majesty to Another. Novatian (Novatian of Rome 235-258): We acknowledge, therefore, and know that he is God, the Creator of all things. He is our Lord, because of his power; our author, because of his creation. “He spoke, and all things were made. He commanded, and all things came forth.”?8? Of him it is written, “You have made all things in wisdom.”?9? Moses says of him, “God is in heaven above and on earth below,”?10? and according to Isaiah, “He has measured the heavens with a span, the earth with the width of the fist”;?11? he “looks upon the earth and makes it tremble.”?12? He “holds the orb of the earth and those who live on it as if they were locusts”;?13? he “weighed the mountains on scales and the groves on a balance,”?14? by the exact precision of the divine plan. He laid out this weight of the earth’s mass with precise equipoise, lest the huge ill-balanced mass should easily fall into ruin, if they were not balanced by providential weights.?15? It is he who says through the prophet, “I am God, and there is none beside me.”?16? He says by means of the same prophet, “I will not give my majesty to another,”?17? so that he might exclude all heathens and heretics with their images, proving that he is God who is not made by the hand of an artificer.?18? Nor is he some God whom heretical ingenuity has devised.
Ferreiro, A. (2003). The Twelve Prophets. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture OT 14. (35). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.

17 Isa 42:8; 48:11
18 Acts 19:26


NKJ  Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. (Isa 42:8 NKJ)

NKJ  Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another. (Isa 48:11 NKJ)

NKJ  Acts 19:26 "Moreover you see and hear that not only at Ephesus, but throughout almost all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are not gods which are made with hands.
 (Act 19:26 NKJ)


Just a hint, Alfred.  If you're going to try to convince your audience of anything, you might start by arguing from premises you and your audience both accept.  The reason you're not getting anywhere in this debate, except maybe in your own arrogant evaluation, is that we don't accept your foundational premise of sola scriptura.  Many here actually did at one time--I am one of those former Protestants who once thought as you do--but we rejected the teaching for the unbiblical fallacy it is.  A good number of these former Protestants even have a much better grasp of theology, the Scriptures, and basic rhetoric than you even think you have.  But there are reasons we left the Protestant sects.

Novatian isn't scripture, yet you ignored him as you do scripture, proving you have an agenda not to listen to any proofs for an opposing position.
As someone else already mentioned, Novatian isn't even considered a Father of the Church, so we've never really paid him any mind.  You can't just take a shady character from our past, parade him around as being some kind of Church Father with great authority, and blame us for ignoring him.  You would do better to find a Father whose authority we actually recognize as being beyond reproach.

No premise is acceptable to you, if I am the one stating it.
I never said that, so don't put words in my mouth. Angry  As it stands, we rejected sola scriptura for 500 years before you came along to preach it to us, so our rejection of your fundamental premise has nothing to do with you.

Why not admit the truth, you aren't an apologist, they must consider the merits of opposing positions to argue against them, you are a partisan.
Nor is it proper for you to deny my past, which I have never detailed for you.  For the record, I HAVE considered the merits of opposing positions and found them wanting.  Remember that I once believed as you do. Wink

Nothing wrong with that, just be honest about it.
Accusing your audience of dishonesty about something you can't prove isn't going to win you many brownie points with us.

AND stop telling me is my fault you refuse to hear.

I don't control your ears, you do:
I take full responsibility for my refusal to believe you, since only I can control how I respond to you.  However, you have not given me any reason why I should think it wise to consider your arguments as bearing any authority.

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15 KJV)

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.  By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God.  -1 John 4:1-3

Anyone who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son.  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.  -2 John 9-11

You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed.  Why should we believe that you bear the word of Christ to correct us?  Are we to believe you based solely on what you boast in your arrogance about yourself?  Are we to believe you because you throw a goodly number of biblical proof texts at us?  Remember that we too have the Scriptures and that we read them, so you can't say we've never heard the word of Scripture to be able to understand what it says.  Why do we need you to interpret it for us?

Are we not to test the spirit of what you're saying to see whether it is of God?  Your doctrine runs totally opposite to all we have received as coming from the mouths and pens of the Apostles.  To us, you might as well be as one of the false prophets of whom St. John warned us in the latter of the two passages I quoted above.
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« Reply #456 on: August 08, 2010, 09:35:49 PM »

I said Jesus forbade every possible kind of icon of God in Deut 4:16.

Jesus is God therefore He forbade icons of Himself.

What precisely don't you understand?


What I don't understand is how you can say this and then say that you would put in your house pictures like these?





1. Either you think these pictures are not something forbidden by Deut. 4:16 (in which case I would like an explanation of why); or

2  By putting them in your house, is it your intent to declare that Jesus is not divine?

I've asked you both of these questions more than once.  Please answer.
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« Reply #457 on: August 08, 2010, 09:49:57 PM »

Also, Deut. 4:16 forbids making images of any living thing, male or female.  How can that be a prohibition against making an image of our God?  God is not ever referred to as female. 

Or could it be that He was only forbidding the making of pagan gods?  To me, that makes the most sense.  I mean, if God meant Deut. 4:16 to be a reference to Himself, He would be saying that He could be female.  Also, since the next verses go on to include things that fly, creep on the earth, etc., if that were about God, then God would be saying He is a bird or fish or creeping thing.  That just doesn't make sense.

I just don't see how you can see Deut. 4:16 as a prohibition against depicting our God.  Our God is not female, or a bird, fish, or creeping thing.  That verse only makes sense if you see it as a prohibition against the depiction of pagan gods.
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« Reply #458 on: August 08, 2010, 10:42:39 PM »


Lets see if you really reject the logic, do you also disagree with the following statement:

Simply put, the council claimed that, to deny icons inevitably meant a renunciation of the incarnation of the eternal Son of God
http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/general/orthodoxchristianity/icons

That's not an answer to my question.  My question was: If you put a picture of Christ in your house, are you denying that Jesus is God?  What you wrote above is not an answer, and I don't even know what you are talking about. 

I asked a "yes or no" question.  So please answer yes or no.  I've actually asked this question several times now, in response to your repeated insistence that making an image of Jesus  means you are violating the Bible and denying the divinity of Christ.  Yet at the same time, you said you would put a picture like the ones I've been pasting in your home.

I've asked you if the Bible says Western pictures are not idols, while Eastern icons are.  You won't respond to that.

I've asked you if having the above pictures in your home violates the Bible and denies Christ's divinity.  You won't reply to that.

I have no choice but to believe that you have no substance behind your beliefs.  You can't answer my questions.   

I said Jesus forbade every possible kind of icon of God in Deut 4:16.

Jesus is God therefore He forbade icons of Himself.

What precisely don't you understand?

Why you are so hell bent on tying the Lord down with the veil of Moses.  He is neither bound by your eisogesis, not circumscribed by your understanding.  He was circumscribed by the good pleasure of the invisible Father to take the likeness of man to become the icon in which all Godhead dwellt, so we could behold His glory.  He told the Hebrews (1: 3, 6), the angels and us of His icon, Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, "when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him," as we should as well.

Those who sat in Moses' seat instead sat in judgement of Him, and condemned Him to death, even unto death on the Cross, for blasphemy.  The teachings of the Pharisees and scribes collected in the Talmud still condemn Him for blasphemy on the basis of the 1st and 2nd commandments, and Deuteronomy.  Various groups of those entangled in the veil of Moses and blinded by sola scriptura, have carried this to its logical conclusion, abandoning as blasphemy and idolatry the confession of Christ as God, forming the B'nai Noah, the Gentiles forJudaism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahidism

But when we see those that walk not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, we say unto them all, "If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? "Gal. 2:15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
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« Reply #459 on: August 08, 2010, 11:18:55 PM »

Also, Deut. 4:16 forbids making images of any living thing, male or female.  How can that be a prohibition against making an image of our God?  God is not ever referred to as female.
 

Exellent point!

Quote
Or could it be that He was only forbidding the making of pagan gods?  To me, that makes the most sense.  I mean, if God meant Deut. 4:16 to be a reference to Himself, He would be saying that He could be female.  Also, since the next verses go on to include things that fly, creep on the earth, etc., if that were about God, then God would be saying He is a bird or fish or creeping thing.  That just doesn't make sense.

I just don't see how you can see Deut. 4:16 as a prohibition against depicting our God.  Our God is not female, or a bird, fish, or creeping thing.  That verse only makes sense if you see it as a prohibition against the depiction of pagan gods.

yes, the True God did not make the bull in His image and likeness.

Nor did He become True God and True dove, althought the Spirit came upon the Son Who had taken the likeness of man.

However, He created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them, and blessed them, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." The woman processed out of the man's side, bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh that shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man, like the Spirit proceeding from the Father, one flesh as One in Essence.  And the Man knew his wife and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and she conceived, have gotten a man from the LORD, in the image and likeness of the Son begotten of the Father from before all ages, light of light, very God from very God, the man begetting so that in the fulness of time God would be born of a woman without seed and take the likeness of man.

Only then did Moses see the likeness on Tabor that he could not see on Sinai. It seems, however, that Mr. Persson wishes to remain on Sinai in Arabia, in slavery with her children, rather than letting God sent the Spirit of his Son into his heart-covered by the veil of Moses-the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,a Father," so that he would be no longer a slave, but a son; and since a son, God would make him also an heir, (Gal. 4) in God's bride, the Church.

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« Reply #460 on: August 08, 2010, 11:48:52 PM »

During my research I happened upon this gem:

God Does Not Give His Majesty to Another. Novatian (Novatian of Rome 235-258): We acknowledge, therefore, and know that he is God, the Creator of all things. He is our Lord, because of his power; our author, because of his creation. “He spoke, and all things were made. He commanded, and all things came forth.”8 Of him it is written, “You have made all things in wisdom.”9 Moses says of him, “God is in heaven above and on earth below,”10 and according to Isaiah, “He has measured the heavens with a span, the earth with the width of the fist”;11 he “looks upon the earth and makes it tremble.”12 He “holds the orb of the earth and those who live on it as if they were locusts”;13 he “weighed the mountains on scales and the groves on a balance,”14 by the exact precision of the divine plan. He laid out this weight of the earth’s mass with precise equipoise, lest the huge ill-balanced mass should easily fall into ruin, if they were not balanced by providential weights.15 It is he who says through the prophet, “I am God, and there is none beside me.”16 He says by means of the same prophet, “I will not give my majesty to another,”17 so that he might exclude all heathens and heretics with their images, proving that he is God who is not made by the hand of an artificer.18 Nor is he some God whom heretical ingenuity has devised.
Ferreiro, A. (2003). The Twelve Prophets. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture OT 14. (35). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.

17 Isa 42:8; 48:11
18 Acts 19:26


NKJ  Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. (Isa 42:8 NKJ)

NKJ  Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another. (Isa 48:11 NKJ)

NKJ  Acts 19:26 "Moreover you see and hear that not only at Ephesus, but throughout almost all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are not gods which are made with hands.
 (Act 19:26 NKJ)


Just a hint, Alfred.  If you're going to try to convince your audience of anything, you might start by arguing from premises you and your audience both accept.  The reason you're not getting anywhere in this debate, except maybe in your own arrogant evaluation, is that we don't accept your foundational premise of sola scriptura.  Many here actually did at one time--I am one of those former Protestants who once thought as you do--but we rejected the teaching for the unbiblical fallacy it is.  A good number of these former Protestants even have a much better grasp of theology, the Scriptures, and basic rhetoric than you even think you have.  But there are reasons we left the Protestant sects.

Novatian isn't scripture, yet you ignored him as you do scripture, proving you have an agenda not to listen to any proofs for an opposing position.

No premise is acceptable to you, if I am the one stating it.

Why not admit the truth, you aren't an apologist, they must consider the merits of opposing positions to argue against them, you are a partisan.

Nothing wrong with that, just be honest about it.

AND stop telling me is my fault you refuse to hear.

I don't control your ears, you do:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15 KJV)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13210.msg461385/topicseen.html#msg461385
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« Reply #461 on: August 08, 2010, 11:54:24 PM »

During my research I happened upon this gem:

God Does Not Give His Majesty to Another. Novatian (Novatian of Rome 235-258): We acknowledge, therefore, and know that he is God, the Creator of all things. He is our Lord, because of his power; our author, because of his creation. “He spoke, and all things were made. He commanded, and all things came forth.”8 Of him it is written, “You have made all things in wisdom.”9 Moses says of him, “God is in heaven above and on earth below,”10 and according to Isaiah, “He has measured the heavens with a span, the earth with the width of the fist”;11 he “looks upon the earth and makes it tremble.”12 He “holds the orb of the earth and those who live on it as if they were locusts”;13 he “weighed the mountains on scales and the groves on a balance,”14 by the exact precision of the divine plan. He laid out this weight of the earth’s mass with precise equipoise, lest the huge ill-balanced mass should easily fall into ruin, if they were not balanced by providential weights.15 It is he who says through the prophet, “I am God, and there is none beside me.”16 He says by means of the same prophet, “I will not give my majesty to another,”17 so that he might exclude all heathens and heretics with their images, proving that he is God who is not made by the hand of an artificer.18 Nor is he some God whom heretical ingenuity has devised.
Ferreiro, A. (2003). The Twelve Prophets. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture OT 14. (35). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.

17 Isa 42:8; 48:11
18 Acts 19:26


NKJ  Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. (Isa 42:8 NKJ)

NKJ  Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another. (Isa 48:11 NKJ)

NKJ  Acts 19:26 "Moreover you see and hear that not only at Ephesus, but throughout almost all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are not gods which are made with hands.
 (Act 19:26 NKJ)


Just a hint, Alfred.  If you're going to try to convince your audience of anything, you might start by arguing from premises you and your audience both accept.  The reason you're not getting anywhere in this debate, except maybe in your own arrogant evaluation, is that we don't accept your foundational premise of sola scriptura.  Many here actually did at one time--I am one of those former Protestants who once thought as you do--but we rejected the teaching for the unbiblical fallacy it is.  A good number of these former Protestants even have a much better grasp of theology, the Scriptures, and basic rhetoric than you even think you have.  But there are reasons we left the Protestant sects.

Novatian isn't scripture, yet you ignored him as you do scripture, proving you have an agenda not to listen to any proofs for an opposing position.

No premise is acceptable to you, if I am the one stating it.

Why not admit the truth, you aren't an apologist, they must consider the merits of opposing positions to argue against them, you are a partisan.

Nothing wrong with that, just be honest about it.

AND stop telling me is my fault you refuse to hear.

I don't control your ears, you do:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15 KJV)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13210.new.html#new
Isa, unless you fix that link, it will always take a poster to the most recent post on that thread, which may not be what you want as you and other posters add new posts to the thread. Wink
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« Reply #462 on: August 09, 2010, 12:06:12 AM »

Isa, unless you fix that link, it will always take a poster to the most recent post on that thread, which may not be what you want as you and other posters add new posts to the thread. Wink
Ah! Thanks for the heads up. Hopefuly it's fixed now.

I answered there, as Mr. Persson's post wasn't on St. John at all (as it is, most of his posts are on Alfred Persson's impossible eisogesis of De 4:15, rather than St. John's exegesis, the correct one).  I'm waiting to see if he tackles St. John's refutation of the sola scriptura arguement against the Holy Icons-like a prophet he responded to it before its creation.
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« Reply #463 on: August 09, 2010, 12:51:33 AM »

Isa, unless you fix that link, it will always take a poster to the most recent post on that thread, which may not be what you want as you and other posters add new posts to the thread. Wink
Ah! Thanks for the heads up. Hopefuly it's fixed now.

I answered there, as Mr. Persson's post wasn't on St. John at all (as it is, most of his posts are on Alfred Persson's impossible eisogesis of De 4:15, rather than St. John's exegesis, the correct one).  I'm waiting to see if he tackles St. John's refutation of the sola scriptura arguement against the Holy Icons-like a prophet he responded to it before its creation.

Link works properly now. Smiley
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« Reply #464 on: August 09, 2010, 04:32:29 AM »

Oh nonono....You don't get that twist for free!!
The calf was worshiped in lieu of...in the stead of....the true God!!  It was not merely an object "in the worship of" anything.

Mary

It can't be an idol because the text reads "eikona eidwlwn", "likeness of idols", hence something in the fashion of idols.

That describes objects that are like idols, bowed down to and kissed during worship, but not really an idol....the ingenious craftsmen have made images with the God of Israel as their prototype, "after the likeness of idols":


"So now they have sinned increasingly
And have made for themselves
A molten image with their silver,
According to the fashion of idols(eikona eidwlwn, "likeness of idols"),
The work of craftsmen done for them.
They say, "Sacrifice men,
For the calves have come to an end." -Hosea 13:2, Orthodox Study Bible
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« Reply #465 on: August 09, 2010, 04:48:18 AM »

Stay tuned, new arguments to follow, one of them based on Hosea 8:1ff

The word icon does appear in Hosea (13:2):
καὶ προσέθετο τοῦ ἁμαρτάνειν ἔτι καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς χώνευμα ἐκ τοῦ ἀργυρίου αὐτῶν κατ' εἰκόνα εἰδώλων ἔργα τεκτόνων συντετελεσμένα αὐτοῖς αὐτοὶ λέγουσιν θύσατε ἀνθρώπους μόσχοι γὰρ ἐκλελοίπασιν
13:2 And now they have sinned increasingly, and have made for themselves a molten image of their silver, according to the iicon (Bretton "fashion) of idols, the work of artificers accomplished for them: they say, Sacrifice men, for the calves have come to an end

So you can't distinguish between the icon of idols and the icon of the one True God.

Just wanted to ask, since you operate on the equation icon=idol, how exactly does one have an idol of an idol?  You claim (I assUme, as you don't engage St. John's words) that SS. John and Basil erred that "' Honouring the image leads to the prototype....The image of the king is also called the king, and there are not two kings in consequence. Neither is power divided, nor is glory distributed. Just as the reigning power over us is one, so is our homage one, not many, and the honour given to the image reaches back to the original....If the image of the king is the king, the image of Christ is Christ," then what of honoring an icon of an idol, if it does not reach back to the original.  And if the icon does not reach back to the original, how can it be an idol, as Hosea shows that idols can have icons? That nullfies your equation icon=idol.

On the contrary, I agree 13:2 speaks of icons in likeness of idols. That is what the calf idol was, an image used to venerate God, it was supposed God was its prototype.

God rejects that image.

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« Reply #466 on: August 09, 2010, 05:00:53 AM »

These injunctions were given to the Jews on account of their proneness to idolatry. Now we, on the contrary, are no longer in leading strings. Speaking theologically, it is given to us to avoid superstitious error, to be with God in the knowledge of the truth, to worship God alone, to enjoy the fulness of His knowledge. We have passed the stage of infancy, and reached the perfection of manhood. We receive our habit of mind from God, and know what may be imaged and what may not.-Apologia of St John Damascene Against Iconoclasts, Part I.

Well, well.  A quote from St. John.

Israel also claimed superior knowledge of God to "know what may be imaged and what may not."

Where is the claim to "superior knowledge," and more importantly its basis, as the Icon of the invisible God had not yet torn the veil of Moses from our hearts in the days of Hosea?

In context he says "fulness of His knowledge" implying they didn't have fulness of knowledge, i.e., they had inferior knowledge.

I even cited his words, and you still  ask "where is the claim to superior knowledge."



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« Reply #467 on: August 09, 2010, 06:15:55 AM »

...
You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed...

If that's the case, cite the apostolic teaching God is to be imaged, and venerated through that image.

Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)

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« Reply #468 on: August 09, 2010, 06:49:28 AM »

No images are objectionable per se (except those of God), its the act of venerating them that is objectionable.

I could have those pictures on my living room wall, but I could never venerate them.

So it's OK to have an image of Jesus, just as long as you don't venerate that image or think of it as an image of God?

Sure, paintings, statues, film, don't see the harm.

Ah, but consistent iconoclasts do.
Answered on more appropriate thread.
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« Reply #469 on: August 09, 2010, 06:51:19 AM »

Stay tuned, new arguments to follow, one of them based on Hosea 8:1ff

The word icon does appear in Hosea (13:2):
καὶ προσέθετο τοῦ ἁμαρτάνειν ἔτι καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς χώνευμα ἐκ τοῦ ἀργυρίου αὐτῶν κατ' εἰκόνα εἰδώλων ἔργα τεκτόνων συντετελεσμένα αὐτοῖς αὐτοὶ λέγουσιν θύσατε ἀνθρώπους μόσχοι γὰρ ἐκλελοίπασιν
13:2 And now they have sinned increasingly, and have made for themselves a molten image of their silver, according to the iicon (Bretton "fashion) of idols, the work of artificers accomplished for them: they say, Sacrifice men, for the calves have come to an end

So you can't distinguish between the icon of idols and the icon of the one True God.

Just wanted to ask, since you operate on the equation icon=idol, how exactly does one have an idol of an idol?  You claim (I assUme, as you don't engage St. John's words) that SS. John and Basil erred that "' Honouring the image leads to the prototype....The image of the king is also called the king, and there are not two kings in consequence. Neither is power divided, nor is glory distributed. Just as the reigning power over us is one, so is our homage one, not many, and the honour given to the image reaches back to the original....If the image of the king is the king, the image of Christ is Christ," then what of honoring an icon of an idol, if it does not reach back to the original.  And if the icon does not reach back to the original, how can it be an idol, as Hosea shows that idols can have icons? That nullfies your equation icon=idol.

On the contrary, I agree 13:2 speaks of icons in likeness of idols. That is what the calf idol was, an image used to venerate God, it was supposed God was its prototype.

God rejects that image.
Because it isn't His, and hence cannot refer back to Him.  Unlike the icon of the invisible God.
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« Reply #470 on: August 09, 2010, 07:31:18 AM »

...
You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed...

If that's the case, cite the apostolic teaching God is to be imaged, and venerated through that image.

Obviously you cannot,

We have, several times.
Answer continued on more appripriate thread, linked by head quote.
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« Reply #471 on: August 09, 2010, 07:38:54 AM »

These injunctions were given to the Jews on account of their proneness to idolatry. Now we, on the contrary, are no longer in leading strings. Speaking theologically, it is given to us to avoid superstitious error, to be with God in the knowledge of the truth, to worship God alone, to enjoy the fulness of His knowledge. We have passed the stage of infancy, and reached the perfection of manhood. We receive our habit of mind from God, and know what may be imaged and what may not.-Apologia of St John Damascene Against Iconoclasts, Part I.

Well, well.  A quote from St. John.

Israel also claimed superior knowledge of God to "know what may be imaged and what may not."

Where is the claim to "superior knowledge," and more importantly its basis, as the Icon of the invisible God had not yet torn the veil of Moses from our hearts in the days of Hosea?

In context he says "fulness of His knowledge" implying they didn't have fulness of knowledge, i.e., they had inferior knowledge.

I even cited his words, and you still  ask "where is the claim to superior knowledge."
I know that St. John and we have superior knowledge.  In your claim to superior knowledge you state "Israel also claimed superior knowledge of God to 'know what may be imaged and what may not." Where did Israel make such a claim?  You do not cite their words.
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« Reply #472 on: August 09, 2010, 07:57:52 AM »

Oh nonono....You don't get that twist for free!!
The calf was worshiped in lieu of...in the stead of....the true God!!  It was not merely an object "in the worship of" anything.

Mary

It can't be an idol because the text reads "eikona eidwlwn", "likeness of idols", hence something in the fashion of idols.

That describes objects that are like idols, bowed down to and kissed during worship, but not really an idol....the ingenious craftsmen have made images with the God of Israel as their prototype, "after the likeness of idols":


"So now they have sinned increasingly
And have made for themselves
A molten image with their silver,
According to the fashion of idols(eikona eidwlwn, "likeness of idols"),
The work of craftsmen done for them.
They say, "Sacrifice men,
For the calves have come to an end." -Hosea 13:2, Orthodox Study Bible

Likeness of idols would be "ὁμοίωσιν εἰδώλων" not "εἰκόνα εἰδώλων"

The likeness of a man is man. Otherwise Christ is not incarnate.  The likeness of an idol is an idol, which has nothing to do with God. As St. John tells us, the image refers back to its prototype, so an icon refering back to an idol has nothing to do with God either.

Unless you are an ancient Egyptian or a modern Hindu, which has nothing to do with the pure worship of the True God either.
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« Reply #473 on: August 09, 2010, 08:32:24 AM »

To the heretic iconoclast who cannot answer my questions forgive my strident rebuke and I ask that the Lord forgive me of any pride in using His word in such tone but here goes, "But avoid foolish questions , and geneagolies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject: Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." Titus 3:9-11.
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« Reply #474 on: August 09, 2010, 10:41:24 AM »

...
You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed...

If that's the case, cite the apostolic teaching God is to be imaged, and venerated through that image.
It's not just on icons that you came to preach to us, Alfred.  Besides, the denial of icons is itself a denial of the Incarnation, a doctrine foundational to the Gospel proclaimed by the Apostles.

Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Interesting.  I've never seen that passage from 2 Corinthians misused in quite that way before.  You do realize that St. Paul wrote that verse within the context of his preaching on being at home in the body and absent from the Lord as opposed to our anticipated good pleasure of being absent from the body and present with the Lord?  To turn that verse into a proof text against the painting and veneration of icons is indeed quite a stretch not supported at all by its context.  Could it be that you've lost this debate and are now grasping for straws in your desperation to score points?
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« Reply #475 on: August 09, 2010, 10:52:11 AM »

...
You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed...

If that's the case, cite the apostolic teaching God is to be imaged, and venerated through that image.
It's not just on icons that you came to preach to us, Alfred.  Besides, the denial of icons is itself a denial of the Incarnation, a doctrine foundational to the Gospel proclaimed by the Apostles.

Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Interesting.  I've never seen that passage from 2 Corinthians misused in quite that way before.  You do realize that St. Paul wrote that verse within the context of his preaching on being at home in the body and absent from the Lord as opposed to our anticipated good pleasure of being absent from the body and present with the Lord?  To turn that verse into a proof text against the painting and veneration of icons is indeed quite a stretch not supported at all by its context.  Could it be that you've lost this debate and are now grasping for straws in your desperation to score points?
Of course.
For the context from which he rips the quote, which speaks of Christ as "the icon of God," and the veil of Moses which prevents the iconoclasts from seeing Him:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29149.msg461448.html#msg461448

The odd thing is, I get the feeling that Mr. Persson doesn't have faith in the saints who are absent from their bodies and are present with the Lord.  Quite a sight.

But then he walketh disorderly and not after the Tradition which we received of the Apostles.(2 Thess. 3:6).
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« Reply #476 on: August 09, 2010, 11:25:42 AM »

Why does God command us to Honor/Venerate our father and mother(both of whom were created in His image)? DOes this make him a Liar. Also how can one be such a literalist but gloss over the contradictions in the Bible?

Honoring/venerating your father and mother is not being discussed.

Worshiping God via an icon or image is not honoring your father and mother, please don't confuse the two.

"A son honoureth his father and a servant his master if then I be a father where is Mine honour and if I be a master where is My fear saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 1:6

Is the LORD of hosts confused?
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« Reply #477 on: August 09, 2010, 11:48:01 AM »

These injunctions were given to the Jews on account of their proneness to idolatry. Now we, on the contrary, are no longer in leading strings. Speaking theologically, it is given to us to avoid superstitious error, to be with God in the knowledge of the truth, to worship God alone, to enjoy the fulness of His knowledge. We have passed the stage of infancy, and reached the perfection of manhood. We receive our habit of mind from God, and know what may be imaged and what may not.-Apologia of St John Damascene Against Iconoclasts, Part I.

Well, well.  A quote from St. John.

Israel also claimed superior knowledge of God to "know what may be imaged and what may not."

Where is the claim to "superior knowledge," and more importantly its basis, as the Icon of the invisible God had not yet torn the veil of Moses from our hearts in the days of Hosea?

In context he says "fulness of His knowledge" implying they didn't have fulness of knowledge, i.e., they had inferior knowledge.

I even cited his words, and you still  ask "where is the claim to superior knowledge."
I know that St. John and we have superior knowledge.  In your claim to superior knowledge you state "Israel also claimed superior knowledge of God to 'know what may be imaged and what may not." Where did Israel make such a claim?  You do not cite their words.

You are confused, I don't claim superior knowledge. The quotes of John of Damascus and Hosea 8:2 document their claim of superior knowledge which they believed allowed imaging God without it being idolatrous.

God rejected their claim, the Assyrians came in as an eagle to destroy the ancient Jews, and Islam destroyed Orthodoxy in the Middle East, leaving only a tiny stump.

God's use of Muslims to exact retribution is a teachable moment, their hatred of images makes God's feelings about icons abundantly clear.
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« Reply #478 on: August 09, 2010, 11:49:44 AM »

I communicated privately with someone from OC Net re the nature of the thread & perhaps I should perhaps try to convey to the OP some understanding & not just rebuke. Anyway, what I mean to say is that God in the OT lense seems a difficult understanding to properly convey ( & I claim no expertise either). There is certain wording in scripture that seems most direct & when basically understood might reinforce such wrathful concepts of God to be applied since they seem to be directly expressed & God is unchanging. The problem is that when one starts to examine what was understood at the time of Christ, one finds that things are not so obvious & we do not have a complete picture. For ex., when one read Exodus 22:18 about putting a witch to death in the Biblical narrative writings of Josephus this is referred to as an individual who administers poisons (17th c English translator William Whitson notes such a concept varies strongly from his time when alleged witches were burned at the stake). Josephus does not have the passages of Deuteronomy 18 re witches in his narrative & in book 6 of his antiquities has an odd offside commentary re the witch of Endor exhibiting virtue & displaying hospitality to KIng Saul & his retinue by preparing a meal for them. Josephus as I presume we all know was a pharisee (a pharisee!) not some late 20th to early 21st c revisionist who lacks proper fear of the Lord in trying to convey any permisiveness as being ok in the eyes of God. I do not claim to know the full picture but I trust the church in its theology & preserving the preaching the Lord gave to us.
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« Reply #479 on: August 09, 2010, 11:55:28 AM »

I communicated privately with someone from OC Net re the nature of the thread & perhaps I should perhaps try to convey to the OP some understanding & not just rebuke. Anyway, what I mean to say is that God in the OT lense seems a difficult understanding to properly convey ( & I claim no expertise either). There is certain wording in scripture that seems most direct & when basically understood might reinforce such wrathful concepts of God to be applied since they seem to be directly expressed & God is unchanging. The problem is that when one starts to examine what was understood at the time of Christ, one finds that things are not so obvious & we do not have a complete picture. For ex., when one read Exodus 22:18 about putting a witch to death in the Biblical narrative writings of Josephus this is referred to as an individual who administers poisons (17th c English translator William Whitson notes such a concept varies strongly from his time when alleged witches were burned at the stake). Josephus does not have the passages of Deuteronomy 18 re witches in his narrative & in book 6 of his antiquities has an odd offside commentary re the witch of Endor exhibiting virtue & displaying hospitality to KIng Saul & his retinue by preparing a meal for them. Josephus as I presume we all know was a pharisee (a pharisee!) not some late 20th to early 21st c revisionist who lacks proper fear of the Lord in trying to convey any permisiveness as being ok in the eyes of God. I do not claim to know the full picture but I trust the church in its theology & preserving the preaching the Lord gave to us.

We are discussing icon veneration and Deut 4:15f., are you on the right thread?

If so, perhaps you should start at the beginning, your point is obscure...to me at least.


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« Reply #480 on: August 09, 2010, 11:58:25 AM »

Why does God command us to Honor/Venerate our father and mother(both of whom were created in His image)? DOes this make him a Liar. Also how can one be such a literalist but gloss over the contradictions in the Bible?

Honoring/venerating your father and mother is not being discussed.

Worshiping God via an icon or image is not honoring your father and mother, please don't confuse the two.

"A son honoureth his father and a servant his master if then I be a father where is Mine honour and if I be a master where is My fear saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 1:6

Is the LORD of hosts confused?

Nothing in that statement says God desires the fear, veneration, via an image.

You have yet to produce the scripture that has God requesting icons be made of Him and venerated.
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« Reply #481 on: August 09, 2010, 12:01:17 PM »

I communicated privately with someone from OC Net re the nature of the thread & perhaps I should perhaps try to convey to the OP some understanding & not just rebuke. Anyway, what I mean to say is that God in the OT lense seems a difficult understanding to properly convey ( & I claim no expertise either). There is certain wording in scripture that seems most direct & when basically understood might reinforce such wrathful concepts of God to be applied since they seem to be directly expressed & God is unchanging. The problem is that when one starts to examine what was understood at the time of Christ, one finds that things are not so obvious & we do not have a complete picture. For ex., when one read Exodus 22:18 about putting a witch to death in the Biblical narrative writings of Josephus this is referred to as an individual who administers poisons (17th c English translator William Whitson notes such a concept varies strongly from his time when alleged witches were burned at the stake). Josephus does not have the passages of Deuteronomy 18 re witches in his narrative & in book 6 of his antiquities has an odd offside commentary re the witch of Endor exhibiting virtue & displaying hospitality to KIng Saul & his retinue by preparing a meal for them. Josephus as I presume we all know was a pharisee (a pharisee!) not some late 20th to early 21st c revisionist who lacks proper fear of the Lord in trying to convey any permisiveness as being ok in the eyes of God. I do not claim to know the full picture but I trust the church in its theology & preserving the preaching the Lord gave to us.

We are discussing icon veneration and Deut 4:15f., are you on the right thread?

If so, perhaps you should start at the beginning, your point is obscure...to me at least.



Do not play games with me since you cannot even seem to understand a sound analogy that challenges your arrogant & deluded heresy.
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« Reply #482 on: August 09, 2010, 12:06:21 PM »

Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Interesting.  I've never seen that passage from 2 Corinthians misused in quite that way before.  You do realize that St. Paul wrote that verse within the context of his preaching on being at home in the body and absent from the Lord as opposed to our anticipated good pleasure of being absent from the body and present with the Lord?  To turn that verse into a proof text against the painting and veneration of icons is indeed quite a stretch not supported at all by its context.  Could it be that you've lost this debate and are now grasping for straws in your desperation to score points?


John of Damascus discusses his need for the sensible to focus his faith, BUT apostolic doctrine has us walking by faith without the sensible being needed at all:

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

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« Reply #483 on: August 09, 2010, 12:18:43 PM »

Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Interesting.  I've never seen that passage from 2 Corinthians misused in quite that way before.  You do realize that St. Paul wrote that verse within the context of his preaching on being at home in the body and absent from the Lord as opposed to our anticipated good pleasure of being absent from the body and present with the Lord?  To turn that verse into a proof text against the painting and veneration of icons is indeed quite a stretch not supported at all by its context.  Could it be that you've lost this debate and are now grasping for straws in your desperation to score points?


John of Damascus discusses his need for the sensible to focus his faith, BUT apostolic doctrine has us walking by faith without the sensible being needed at all:

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:



This has nothing to do with icons OR idols for that matter.  It has to do with the substance of things unseen...or faith.  Hope then is the realistic expectation that God, in his essential tri-unity, is there before us, here within us, whether or not we can see him with an earthly eye.

If you took this in the sense that you are pressing it, of course, we'd all die before we came forth from the womb...for whatever would be the point of it...according to these passages as you would like to see them read.

You really are having to scrabble a bit now, aren't you?

Mary
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« Reply #484 on: August 09, 2010, 12:19:27 PM »

...
You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed...

If that's the case, cite the apostolic teaching God is to be imaged, and venerated through that image.

Obviously you cannot,

We have, several times.
Answer continued on more appripriate thread, linked by head quote.


No you haven't. Do so now, copy paste here the scripture commanding God be imaged or even wanting to be imaged.
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« Reply #485 on: August 09, 2010, 12:21:49 PM »

Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Interesting.  I've never seen that passage from 2 Corinthians misused in quite that way before.  You do realize that St. Paul wrote that verse within the context of his preaching on being at home in the body and absent from the Lord as opposed to our anticipated good pleasure of being absent from the body and present with the Lord?  To turn that verse into a proof text against the painting and veneration of icons is indeed quite a stretch not supported at all by its context.  Could it be that you've lost this debate and are now grasping for straws in your desperation to score points?


John of Damascus discusses his need for the sensible to focus his faith, BUT apostolic doctrine has us walking by faith without the sensible being needed at all:

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:



This has nothing to do with icons OR idols for that matter.  It has to do with the substance of things unseen...or faith.  Hope then is the realistic expectation that God, in his essential tri-unity, is there before us, here within us, whether or not we can see him with an earthly eye.

If you took this in the sense that you are pressing it, of course, we'd all die before we came forth from the womb...for whatever would be the point of it...according to these passages as you would like to see them read.

You really are having to scrabble a bit now, aren't you?

Mary

Incorrect, it has everything to do with Icons...the apostolic Christian faith doesn't need sensible images to walk in faith.

I want the old time religion of the apostles, not the new innovations of men, therefore their statements against needing the sensible, are relevant, material and competent.
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« Reply #486 on: August 09, 2010, 12:26:44 PM »

...
You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed...

If that's the case, cite the apostolic teaching God is to be imaged, and venerated through that image.
It's not just on icons that you came to preach to us, Alfred.  Besides, the denial of icons is itself a denial of the Incarnation, a doctrine foundational to the Gospel proclaimed by the Apostles.


On the contrary, it is elementary acceptance of icons denies Jesus is God. God outlaws every possible icon of Himself, including those imaging human nature. The Orthodox appear centuries later, making images of Jesus, based on His human nature.

Therefore either Jesus is not God, or His Incarnate flesh is not human.

Therefore it is axiomatic: All who venerate icons and claim this does not violate Deut 4:16 thereby proclaim Jesus is not God.

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« Reply #487 on: August 09, 2010, 12:30:06 PM »

Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Interesting.  I've never seen that passage from 2 Corinthians misused in quite that way before.  You do realize that St. Paul wrote that verse within the context of his preaching on being at home in the body and absent from the Lord as opposed to our anticipated good pleasure of being absent from the body and present with the Lord?  To turn that verse into a proof text against the painting and veneration of icons is indeed quite a stretch not supported at all by its context.  Could it be that you've lost this debate and are now grasping for straws in your desperation to score points?


John of Damascus discusses his need for the sensible to focus his faith, BUT apostolic doctrine has us walking by faith without the sensible being needed at all:

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:



This has nothing to do with icons OR idols for that matter.  It has to do with the substance of things unseen...or faith.  Hope then is the realistic expectation that God, in his essential tri-unity, is there before us, here within us, whether or not we can see him with an earthly eye.

If you took this in the sense that you are pressing it, of course, we'd all die before we came forth from the womb...for whatever would be the point of it...according to these passages as you would like to see them read.

You really are having to scrabble a bit now, aren't you?

Mary

Incorrect, it has everything to do with Icons...the apostolic Christian faith doesn't need sensible images to walk in faith.

I want the old time religion of the apostles, not the new innovations of men, therefore their statements against needing the sensible, are relevant, material and competent.


Again you posit a need that is not real.  

No.  I do not NEED the image of Pantocrator which graces my house.  I don't NEED the moon and the stars.  I don't NEED my own life.

So you not only undermine what you have decided you don't like, want or need, but you undermine all meaning of life entirely in your zeal to press your agenda, and you don't even see it so blinded are you by certainty.

Certitude is the most dangerous of all spiritual tools!!

It is not what we do not know that hurts us the most.

It is that which we THINK we know, yet know not that can truly ruin a body and soul.

Mary
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« Reply #488 on: August 09, 2010, 12:38:44 PM »


If you took this in the sense that you are pressing it, of course, we'd all die before we came forth from the womb...for whatever would be the point of it...according to these passages as you would like to see them read.


Mary

John Damascene:  If the image of the king is the king, the image of Christ is Christ, and the image of a saint the saint, and if power is not divided nor glory distributed, honouring the image becomes honouring the one who is set forth in image. Devils have feared the saints, and have fled from their shadow. The shadow is an image, and I make an image that I may scare demons. If you say that only intellectual worship befits God, take away all corporeal things, light, and fragrance, prayer itself through the physical voice, the very divine mysteries which are offered through matter, bread, and wine, the oil of chrism, the sign of the Cross, for all this is matter. Take away the Cross, and the sponge of the Crucifixion, and the spear which pierced the life-giving side. Either give up honouring these things as impossible, or do not reject the veneration of images. Matter is endued with a divine power through prayer made to those who are depicted in image. Purple by itself is simple, and so is silk, and the cloak which is made of [36] both. But if the king put it on, the cloak receives honour from the honour due to the wearer. So is it with matter. By itself it is of no account, but if the one presented in image be full of grace, men become partakers of his grace according to their faith. The apostles knew our Lord with their bodily eyes; others knew the apostles, others the martyrs. I, too, desire to see them in the spirit and in the flesh, and to possess a saving remedy as I am a composite being. I see with my eyes, and revere that which represents what I honour, though I do not worship it as God. Now you, perhaps, are superior to me, and are lifted up above bodily things, and being, as it were, not of flesh, you make light of what is visible, but as I am human and clothed with a body, I desire to see and to be corporeally with the saints. Condescend to my humble wish that you may be secure on your heights. God accepts my longing for Him and for His saints. For He rejoices at the praises of His servant, according to the great St Basil in his panegyric of the Forty Martyrs. Listen to the words which he uttered in honour of the martyr St Gordion.
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« Reply #489 on: August 09, 2010, 12:47:24 PM »

Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Interesting.  I've never seen that passage from 2 Corinthians misused in quite that way before.  You do realize that St. Paul wrote that verse within the context of his preaching on being at home in the body and absent from the Lord as opposed to our anticipated good pleasure of being absent from the body and present with the Lord?  To turn that verse into a proof text against the painting and veneration of icons is indeed quite a stretch not supported at all by its context.  Could it be that you've lost this debate and are now grasping for straws in your desperation to score points?


John of Damascus discusses his need for the sensible to focus his faith, BUT apostolic doctrine has us walking by faith without the sensible being needed at all:

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:



This has nothing to do with icons OR idols for that matter.  It has to do with the substance of things unseen...or faith.  Hope then is the realistic expectation that God, in his essential tri-unity, is there before us, here within us, whether or not we can see him with an earthly eye.

If you took this in the sense that you are pressing it, of course, we'd all die before we came forth from the womb...for whatever would be the point of it...according to these passages as you would like to see them read.

You really are having to scrabble a bit now, aren't you?

Mary

Incorrect, it has everything to do with Icons...the apostolic Christian faith doesn't need sensible images to walk in faith.

I want the old time religion of the apostles, not the new innovations of men, therefore their statements against needing the sensible, are relevant, material and competent.


Again you posit a need that is not real.  

No.  I do not NEED the image of Pantocrator which graces my house.  I don't NEED the moon and the stars.  I don't NEED my own life.

So you not only undermine what you have decided you don't like, want or need, but you undermine all meaning of life entirely in your zeal to press your agenda, and you don't even see it so blinded are you by certainty.

Certitude is the most dangerous of all spiritual tools!!

It is not what we do not know that hurts us the most.

It is that which we THINK we know, yet know not that can truly ruin a body and soul.

Mary

Incorrect, John of Damascus says:

"If, therefore, Holy Scripture, providing for our need, ever putting before us what is intangible, clothes it in flesh, does it not make an image of what is thus invested with our nature, and brought to the level of our desires, yet invisible? "-Ibid I

Iconophiles differ from the apostolic faith, the latter despised images of God. It wasn't till centuries later the Orthodox faith was overtaken by iconography, prior to that, they were all like me.



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« Reply #490 on: August 09, 2010, 01:01:10 PM »

bump


If you took this in the sense that you are pressing it, of course, we'd all die before we came forth from the womb...for whatever would be the point of it...according to these passages as you would like to see them read.


Mary

John Damascene:  If the image of the king is the king, the image of Christ is Christ, and the image of a saint the saint, and if power is not divided nor glory distributed, honouring the image becomes honouring the one who is set forth in image. Devils have feared the saints, and have fled from their shadow. The shadow is an image, and I make an image that I may scare demons. If you say that only intellectual worship befits God, take away all corporeal things, light, and fragrance, prayer itself through the physical voice, the very divine mysteries which are offered through matter, bread, and wine, the oil of chrism, the sign of the Cross, for all this is matter. Take away the Cross, and the sponge of the Crucifixion, and the spear which pierced the life-giving side. Either give up honouring these things as impossible, or do not reject the veneration of images. Matter is endued with a divine power through prayer made to those who are depicted in image. Purple by itself is simple, and so is silk, and the cloak which is made of [36] both. But if the king put it on, the cloak receives honour from the honour due to the wearer. So is it with matter. By itself it is of no account, but if the one presented in image be full of grace, men become partakers of his grace according to their faith. The apostles knew our Lord with their bodily eyes; others knew the apostles, others the martyrs. I, too, desire to see them in the spirit and in the flesh, and to possess a saving remedy as I am a composite being. I see with my eyes, and revere that which represents what I honour, though I do not worship it as God. Now you, perhaps, are superior to me, and are lifted up above bodily things, and being, as it were, not of flesh, you make light of what is visible, but as I am human and clothed with a body, I desire to see and to be corporeally with the saints. Condescend to my humble wish that you may be secure on your heights. God accepts my longing for Him and for His saints. For He rejoices at the praises of His servant, according to the great St Basil in his panegyric of the Forty Martyrs. Listen to the words which he uttered in honour of the martyr St Gordion.
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« Reply #491 on: August 09, 2010, 01:06:09 PM »

Then the incarnation of Christ is irrelevant to your icon. If you don't make an icon of Christ because you have seen His flesh, then you may as well make an icon of God, even though you haven't seen His similitude.


The argument for icons rests upon seeing Christ's body, while not making one because of not seeing the similitude.

If you destroy the rationale for icons, then what's to prevent making icons of the Father and the Spirit?



I'm not sure how what I just said made the incarnation of Christ irrelevant. The person of God the Father has not been seen, and is therefore not depictable, the person of the Holy Spirit has been seen in the form of a dove and is depictable, and Christ was seen because of the incarnation, and is also depictable.

Think about your statement:

The person of God the Father has not been seen, and is therefore not depictable

It should follow:

"The person of God the Son has not been seen, and is therefore not depictable"

BUT it doesn't, you depict the Son. How? Because His body was seen.

So the very existence of  your icon rests, not upon the Person, but upon the body of Christ.

So your icon must be imaging His Body, even if you maintain the prototype is the whole Christ.

The Person, and infinite Being of God, are not visible to image, only His body is.

So you can't tell me Christ's body is not being imaged by your icon.

Full answer on the more appropriate thread on this link:
You seem intent on repeating Nestorius' mistakes.
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« Reply #492 on: August 09, 2010, 01:33:33 PM »

Then the incarnation of Christ is irrelevant to your icon. If you don't make an icon of Christ because you have seen His flesh, then you may as well make an icon of God, even though you haven't seen His similitude.


The argument for icons rests upon seeing Christ's body, while not making one because of not seeing the similitude.

If you destroy the rationale for icons, then what's to prevent making icons of the Father and the Spirit?



I'm not sure how what I just said made the incarnation of Christ irrelevant. The person of God the Father has not been seen, and is therefore not depictable, the person of the Holy Spirit has been seen in the form of a dove and is depictable, and Christ was seen because of the incarnation, and is also depictable.

Think about your statement:

The person of God the Father has not been seen, and is therefore not depictable

It should follow:

"The person of God the Son has not been seen, and is therefore not depictable"

BUT it doesn't, you depict the Son. How? Because His body was seen.

So the very existence of  your icon rests, not upon the Person, but upon the body of Christ.

So your icon must be imaging His Body, even if you maintain the prototype is the whole Christ.

The Person, and infinite Being of God, are not visible to image, only His body is.

So you can't tell me Christ's body is not being imaged by your icon.

Full answer on the more appropriate thread on this link:
You seem intent on repeating Nestorius' mistakes.

That wasn't an answer, and its iconographers who accomplish two heresies, with one icon.

As they image because of the incarnation of Christ, they are tearing the humanity of Christ, from His deity = Nesotorian.

As they image the Person of Christ, with one image, they confuse the natures in one icon = Monophysite.

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« Reply #493 on: August 09, 2010, 01:46:34 PM »

...
You see, Alfred, you've come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to present a doctrine that contradicts what the Apostles taught us and we have always believed...

If that's the case, cite the apostolic teaching God is to be imaged, and venerated through that image.
It's not just on icons that you came to preach to us, Alfred.  Besides, the denial of icons is itself a denial of the Incarnation, a doctrine foundational to the Gospel proclaimed by the Apostles.


On the contrary, it is elementary acceptance of icons denies Jesus is God. God outlaws every possible icon of Himself, including those imaging human nature. The Orthodox appear centuries later, making images of Jesus, based on His human nature.

Therefore either Jesus is not God, or His Incarnate flesh is not human.

Therefore it is axiomatic: All who venerate icons and claim this does not violate Deut 4:16 thereby proclaim Jesus is not God.

He who sees Me has seen the Father. Moses saw on Tabor what He did not see on Sinai.  Therefore it is axiomatic: All who refuse to venerate icons and claim this does not violate Deut 4:16 thereby proclaim Jesus is not God.
Full answer on the more appropriate thread on this link.^
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« Reply #494 on: August 09, 2010, 01:48:34 PM »

Obviously you cannot, but I can cite where Paul contradicts what you have been taught:

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (2Co 5:7 NKJ)
Interesting.  I've never seen that passage from 2 Corinthians misused in quite that way before.  You do realize that St. Paul wrote that verse within the context of his preaching on being at home in the body and absent from the Lord as opposed to our anticipated good pleasure of being absent from the body and present with the Lord?  To turn that verse into a proof text against the painting and veneration of icons is indeed quite a stretch not supported at all by its context.  Could it be that you've lost this debate and are now grasping for straws in your desperation to score points?


John of Damascus discusses his need for the sensible to focus his faith, BUT apostolic doctrine has us walking by faith without the sensible being needed at all:

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:



This has nothing to do with icons OR idols for that matter.  It has to do with the substance of things unseen...or faith.  Hope then is the realistic expectation that God, in his essential tri-unity, is there before us, here within us, whether or not we can see him with an earthly eye.

If you took this in the sense that you are pressing it, of course, we'd all die before we came forth from the womb...for whatever would be the point of it...according to these passages as you would like to see them read.

You really are having to scrabble a bit now, aren't you?

Mary

Incorrect, it has everything to do with Icons...the apostolic Christian faith doesn't need sensible images to walk in faith.

I want the old time religion of the apostles, not the new innovations of men, therefore their statements against needing the sensible, are relevant, material and competent.


Again you posit a need that is not real.  

No.  I do not NEED the image of Pantocrator which graces my house.  I don't NEED the moon and the stars.  I don't NEED my own life.

So you not only undermine what you have decided you don't like, want or need, but you undermine all meaning of life entirely in your zeal to press your agenda, and you don't even see it so blinded are you by certainty.

Certitude is the most dangerous of all spiritual tools!!

It is not what we do not know that hurts us the most.

It is that which we THINK we know, yet know not that can truly ruin a body and soul.

Mary

Incorrect, John of Damascus says:

"If, therefore, Holy Scripture, providing for our need, ever putting before us what is intangible, clothes it in flesh, does it not make an image of what is thus invested with our nature, and brought to the level of our desires, yet invisible? "-Ibid I

Iconophiles differ from the apostolic faith, the latter despised images of God. It wasn't till centuries later the Orthodox faith was overtaken by iconography, prior to that, they were all like me.



doubt it.
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