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Author Topic: John of Damascus' exegesis of De 4:15 is impossible  (Read 39922 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #135 on: August 05, 2010, 09:06:48 AM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?

Of course not, neither is making any of the images God commanded be made.

God forbade any manner of icon of Himself, as Jesus is God, and God doesn't change, it follows icons of Him are forbidden.

Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.


But where does it say that the cross can be depicted scripturally? Per my posts in this thread I have conceptually removed the icons of Christ the Pantocrator, the incarnation, & all icons of the saints according to what you preach even though in my apparent darkness I thought I was worshipping the Trinity but was closer to weeping for Tammuz. I presume that there is much to be concerned about what we see with our eyes when we worship even though we have no other concepts other than Trinity as we worship, we proceed to betray it by a graven image?
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« Reply #136 on: August 05, 2010, 09:36:17 AM »

It begins with "you never saw my similitude", to paraphrase, "you better not misrepresent me."

They had no form with which to represent God because none had been revealed to them. We do because God revealed himself as a man.

Quote
God does not change, Jesus is God, therefore He does not want an image of His similitude either.

The prohibition was based on the fact that God had not revealed a form to the Israelites. This changed when God revealed Himself in Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #137 on: August 05, 2010, 10:09:49 AM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?

Of course not, neither is making any of the images God commanded be made.

God forbade any manner of icon of Himself, as Jesus is God, and God doesn't change, it follows icons of Him are forbidden.

Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.



You are a form a Protestantism, so I'm going to assume you don't believe in Transubstantiation. Don't you instead believe that the Eucharist is symbolic? If that's the case, that makes your eucharist is an icon of Christ.
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« Reply #138 on: August 05, 2010, 11:07:56 AM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?

Of course not, neither is making any of the images God commanded be made.

God forbade any manner of icon of Himself, as Jesus is God, and God doesn't change, it follows icons of Him are forbidden.

Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.



You are a form a Protestantism, so I'm going to assume you don't believe in Transubstantiation. Don't you instead believe that the Eucharist is symbolic? If that's the case, that makes your eucharist is an icon of Christ.

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« Reply #139 on: August 05, 2010, 11:14:09 AM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?

Of course not, neither is making any of the images God commanded be made.

God forbade any manner of icon of Himself, as Jesus is God, and God doesn't change, it follows icons of Him are forbidden.

Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.



So which are you condemning?  Any image of the Lord Jesus Christ (including such images in children's Bibles, books of Bible stories, Sunday school lesson books, little felt cut-outs used in childrens' church, etc), or the worship of such images? 

If the first, then Lord have mercy on everyone, for these things abound!  If the second, then I refer you to the Seventh Ecumenical Council (the second Nicene council), so that you may understand the Orthodox usage of icons.   
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« Reply #140 on: August 05, 2010, 11:40:22 AM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?


Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.



So which are you condemning?  Any image of the Lord Jesus Christ (including such images in children's Bibles, books of Bible stories, Sunday school lesson books, little felt cut-outs used in childrens' church, etc), or the worship of such images

If the first, then Lord have mercy on everyone, for these things abound!  If the second, then I refer you to the Seventh Ecumenical Council (the second Nicene council), so that you may understand the Orthodox usage of icons.   


TheistGal said it concisely on another thread:

Idols are false gods.  Christ is the true God.  Therefore, an icon of Him is not an idol but simply a reminder that God became flesh and dwelt among us. 
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« Reply #141 on: August 05, 2010, 12:51:28 PM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?

Of course not, neither is making any of the images God commanded be made.

God forbade any manner of icon of Himself, as Jesus is God, and God doesn't change, it follows icons of Him are forbidden.

Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.



You are a form a Protestantism, so I'm going to assume you don't believe in Transubstantiation. Don't you instead believe that the Eucharist is symbolic? If that's the case, that makes your eucharist is an icon of Christ.

Your argument is unsound, 1)bad behavior does not justify bad behavior; 2)I don't worship the host, symbolic or not. I eat it. So it is not an icon.



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« Reply #142 on: August 05, 2010, 12:58:42 PM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?


Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.



So which are you condemning?  Any image of the Lord Jesus Christ (including such images in children's Bibles, books of Bible stories, Sunday school lesson books, little felt cut-outs used in childrens' church, etc), or the worship of such images

If the first, then Lord have mercy on everyone, for these things abound!  If the second, then I refer you to the Seventh Ecumenical Council (the second Nicene council), so that you may understand the Orthodox usage of icons.   


TheistGal said it concisely on another thread:

Idols are false gods.  Christ is the true God.  Therefore, an icon of Him is not an idol but simply a reminder that God became flesh and dwelt among us. 


Yes, but what I'm wondering is what Persson's own stance is, exactly.  If he is against any depiction whatsoever of our Lord, then Jack T Chick himself stands condemned.  If he is merely against worship of icons, then he is barking up the wrong tree entirely, as any reading of the Seventh Council will clearly state.



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« Reply #143 on: August 05, 2010, 12:59:10 PM »

Quote

Your argument is unsound, 1)bad behavior does not justify bad behavior; 2)I don't worship the host, symbolic or not. I eat it. So it is not an icon.



Likewise we do not worship icons, we venerate them. Your communion is an icon, a rose by any other name is still a rose. You do communion in remembrance of Christ, therefore it serves as a memory as Christ's blood and body, in essence it is a type of icon. Do you not revere communion? Do you not make sure that your heart is in the right place before communion lest ye be consumed by fire as were the sons of Aaron? If you do these things then you do indeed venerate the communion and it is indeed an icon.

Again, veneration is not the same as worship, which belongs only to God. Our icons (pictures) of Christ likewise help us to remember Christ's blood and body (being the person) as your oyster crackers and welch's does for you.
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« Reply #144 on: August 05, 2010, 01:06:26 PM »

It begins with "you never saw my similitude", to paraphrase, "you better not misrepresent me."

They had no form with which to represent God because none had been revealed to them. We do because God revealed himself as a man.

Quote
God does not change, Jesus is God, therefore He does not want an image of His similitude either.

The prohibition was based on the fact that God had not revealed a form to the Israelites. This changed when God revealed Himself in Jesus Christ.

So you are saying:

If only the Israelites had seen God's similitude, which is unlike anything in creation, God would have wanted it imaged. Therefore, as God has revealed His similitude in the likeness of Jesus' incarnate Body, God wants it imaged.

So, if God didn't want His similitude imaged, then He wouldn't want His incarnate body imaged because God does not change (Mal 3:6) and Jesus is God (Joh 1:1; 12:41 cp Isa 6:1ff).

That interpretation is impossible, Deut 4:15ff forbade every possible image made by the hand of man, plus what their hand could not make existing in the heavens.

15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
(Deu 4:15-19 KJV)

Moreover, the warning "take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves" connected to the categorical "(ye saw) no manner of similitude" ( כָּל־תְּמוּנָה, lit., "all; every; any" similitude), has the force of: "Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves, do not image God."

Inasmuch as the divine holiness is the separateness of the Divine Being from all finiteness of the creature, it includes the impossibility of forming an image of the Divine Being. For the connection of the two ideas compare the passage Isa. 40:25.- Oehler, G. F., & Day, G. E. (2009). Theology of the Old Testament. (111). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

KJV Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
(Isa 40:25 KJV)

Also contradicting you is the fact Moses saw God's similitude yet didn't make an image of it: [/i]

TKJV Numbers 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? (Num 12:8 KJV)

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
(Exo 33:20-23 KJV)

Although this is a "reflex" of the divine form, according to John Damascene's rational, Moses should have imaged it, God would have wanted it so.

That your interpretation is impossible--- none reading Deut 4:15ff; 5:8; Ex 20:4, without icon spectacles comes away believing God wants to be imaged.

23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
(Deu 4:23-24 KJV)

God demands exclusive devotion, no divided praise like that received by a prototype of an icon :

"I am the Lord God; this is my Name. I will not give my glory to another, not My praise to carved images."-Isaiah 42:8 Orthodox Bible

Replacing the imageless transcendent God with a detestable image in the psyche of man is an abomination of desolation, so defiling God's presence is impossible:

"Then He said to me, "Son of man, do you see what they are doing? They commit great acts of lawlessness here to keep Me from My sanctuary."-Ezekiel 8:6 OB

Hence the apostle warns:

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1Jo 5:21 NKJ)


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« Reply #145 on: August 05, 2010, 01:13:13 PM »





That your interpretation is impossible--- none reading Deut 4:15ff; 5:8; Ex 20:4, without icon spectacles comes away believing God wants to be imaged.





[/quote]

Then why do you image God in your communion? Does your communion not symbolize Christ's blood and body? If it does then it is an image of Christ, and it is an icon as icons are symbols used to remember.
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« Reply #146 on: August 05, 2010, 01:27:49 PM »


21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1Jo 5:21 NKJ)


You keep saying this, but the fact of the matter is, the icon is NOT an idol in the Orthodox church.  An idol is a false god -- we are not trusting in the icon to save us and we are not worshiping the icon.  So keep railing against the icons if you must, but calling them idols in conclusion is incorrect. 
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« Reply #147 on: August 05, 2010, 01:35:59 PM »

SUBSTANTIATED CHARGE
IMPLAUSIBLE DENIAL
MANTRA
MANTRA
SILLY SYLLOGISM DISGUISED AS STRAW MAN ASSERTION

So, if God didn't want His similitude imaged, then He wouldn't want His incarnate body imaged because God does not change (Mal 3:6)
then being in the form of God He would have grasped divinity and not taken the likeness (mistranslated by some  Roll Eyes as "similtude") of man, emptying Himself to take the human form which is imaged.  Of course He does not change, which is why at the sight of Him, being found in fashion as a man, the Apsotles He sent and those who receive them fall down in worship and exclaim "My LORD and My God," to the glory of God the Father, for to see Him is to see the Father. Anyone who refuses, rejecting them He sent, reject Him and He Who sent Him, Who does not change.  (Phil. 2:6-8, 10-11; John 13:20-1; 20:20-23, 27-28; Luke 10:16)
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« Reply #148 on: August 05, 2010, 01:37:46 PM »

and Jesus is God (Joh 1:1; 12:41 cp Isa 6:1ff).[/color][/b]

and Jesus is the icon of the invisible God, the Firstborn of creation in Whom the fullness of Godhood was pleased to dwell (Col. 1:15, 19), and, unlike Moses on Sinai (Ex. 33.20), we have beheld His face (John 1:14), as Moses did on Tabor.

MANTRA
2)Deut 4:15; 5:8; Ex 20:4 forbade images of God in any existing form.

God did not exist in the form of man, until the fullness of time when He took flesh and dwellt among us, and we beheld His glory, which Moses could not see on Sinai, but saw on Tabor.

3) God wants to be imaged.
Luke 10: 1 "After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come....

16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me....

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. 22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them....

13:31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Yes, God wants to be imaged.
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« Reply #149 on: August 05, 2010, 01:38:43 PM »

John Damascene's interpretation is impossible, Deut 4:15ff forbade every possible image made by the hand of man, plus what their hand could not make existing in the heavens.

So Detu. 4:15ff forbade the Incarnation, which is why Mary was troubled at Gabriel's saying, asking "How shall this be?" as Deuteronomy forbids Him existing in the Heavens to be conceived by the handmaiden.  

And when the angel answered and said unto her "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.  For with God nothing shall be impossible," he lied, as Deut. 4:15ff forbade the image and likeness of the Father to come in the likeness of man, the image and likeness of God.  

So when Mary said, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word," she broke the word of God "And the angel departed from her."  

Yes, I am sure that is the image of the coming of the Son of Man that the Woman, the New Eve, gave to the beloved disciple, as they looked on the Son of Man who came down from Heaven (oops! He couldn't have: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that, as "no man hath ascended into Heaven" so I guess we have to drop Acts 1:9-10, as Deut. 4:15ff forbade that) lifted up like the image of the serpent that God commanded Moses to make (ooops! He couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that) so it would come to pass that every one whehn he looketh upon Him (ooops! they couldn't have: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that) shall live.  

So the deloved disciple, the Theologian, warns us that "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes (ooops! he couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), which we have looked upon (ooops! he couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested (ooops! He couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), and we have seen it (ooops! they couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), and bear witness (oops! evidently false witness, and the Truth was not in him) , and shew unto you ((ooops! he couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that)) that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us (ooops! He couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that)Wink 3That which we have seen (ooops! He couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that) and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."  (Luke 1:26-38; John 3:13-4: Numbers 21:8-9; I John 1:1-4).  

Don't know what then to make of his warning  (I John 2)

"18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.  25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.  26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear (ooops! He can't do that: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear (ooops! He can't do that: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (ooops! We can't: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that)...4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (ooops! He couldn'thave: Deut. 4:15ff forbade that) is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

 (Luke 1:26-38; John 3:13-4: Numbers 21:8-9; I John 1:1-4).

Your interpretation of St. Luke is impossible.
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« Reply #150 on: August 05, 2010, 01:41:09 PM »

CITATION OF THE LAW MUFFLED THROUGH THE VEIL OF MOSES.
EISOGESIS ON THE AUTHORITY OF THE PHARISEES, SADDUCCEES AND SCRIBES

Inasmuch as the divine holiness is the separateness of the Divine Being from all finiteness of the creature, it includes the impossibility of forming an image of the Divine Being. For the connection of the two ideas compare the passage Isa. 40:25.- Oehler, G. F., & Day, G. E. (2009). Theology of the Old Testament. (111). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Compare St. John the Theologian "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory."

KJV Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
(Isa 40:25 KJV)

Not being among the Protestants who have went back, and walk with the Lord no more (John 6:66, speaking of antichrist), we, going nowhere from the words of Life that the Church has given us, we believe and are sure that He is that Christ, the Son of the living God and the Holy One of God, to whom we liken the likeness and find equal, as He did not find it robbery.

I know that that this is an hard saying and it doth offend you; and you cannot hear it.  You murmured at it, and cover your eyes with the veil of Moses so that you cannot see the Son of man ascend up where He was before, but the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him, And He said therefore that no man can come unto him, except it were given unto him of His Father. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father, It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught by God. And so we have been:"He who has seen Me has seen the Father."
(John 6:45-6, 66-70, 14:9; Philip 2:6).

Also contradicting John Damascene is the fact Moses saw God's similitude yet didn't make an image of it: [/i]

TKJV Numbers 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? (Num 12:8 KJV)

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
(Exo 33:20-23 KJV)

Actually, here you are claiming that God in Deuteronomy (4:15ff "for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you") contradicts God in Numbers and Exodus. Of course you fail to notice that Numbers says "shall he behold," future, not past (into which the incident in Exodus had come to pass).  And in the future Moses did behold the likeness (the correct translation) and glory (the correct text of the Pentateuch of the Apostles, as opposed to your Torah of the Pharisees and scribes) on His face
And in the fullness of time God the Word took flesh and dwelt among, taking the likeness of us men so that we beheld the likeness of His Father. We celebrate that this month

That's Moses, btw, on the right bearing witness to seeing on Tabor He Whom he could not see on Sinai (Exodus 33:20). But back to your false witness against St. John.

Although this is a "reflex" of the divine form, according to John Damascene's rational

Why don't you quote St. John, as he does deal with this issue?

, Moses should have imaged it, God would have wanted it so.

Then God would have brought it up in the first place.  He didn't. Moses did. God had other plans, fulfilled in the fullness of time. Moses was among those prophets that the Lord tells us "desired to see those things which [we] see, and have not seen them."

Also proving John Damascene's interpretation is impossible--- none reading Deut 4:15ff; 5:8; Ex 20:4, without icon spectacles
When we are baptized and made disciples as Christ commanded by those whom He sent, after they worshipped Him when they saw Him, and with whom He promised to be with all the days to the end of the age (Mt. 28:17-20), the scales fall from our eyes and the veil of Moses is taken away (Acts 9:17-18; II Corin. 3:14) and we receive our sight, or rather His sight.  

Those which the Holy Ghost hath made overseers and bishop, to feed and shepherd the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood (oooops!  Deut. 4:15ff forbade that), stiring in them the gift of God of a sound mind which is in them from the laying on of hands when they took their bishoprick and were numbered among the Apostles, and appointed to set in order that which is lacking (Acts 1:20, 26, 20:28; II Tim. 1:6-7; Tit. 1:5), they anoint our eyes with eyesalve, that we may see, and to have an unction from the Holy One, so we know all things, the anointing which we have received of Him abideth in us, and we need not that any man teach us: but as the same anointing teacheth us of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught us, we shall abide in Him (I John 20:20, 27; Rev. 3:8 ).  We were blind, but now we see, and see Him as He is.

"24Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. 25He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. 26Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? 27He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? 28Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. 29We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. 30The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. 31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. 32Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. 34They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."

Those who walk in the way of the Pharisees, claiming to be Moses' disciples, not knowing whence Christ is or "I Am," have been warned.
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« Reply #151 on: August 05, 2010, 01:42:02 PM »

Quote

Your argument is unsound, 1)bad behavior does not justify bad behavior; 2)I don't worship the host, symbolic or not. I eat it. So it is not an icon.



Likewise we do not worship icons, we venerate them. Your communion is an icon, a rose by any other name is still a rose. You do communion in remembrance of Christ, therefore it serves as a memory as Christ's blood and body, in essence it is a type of icon. Do you not revere communion? Do you not make sure that your heart is in the right place before communion lest ye be consumed by fire as were the sons of Aaron? If you do these things then you do indeed venerate the communion and it is indeed an icon.

Again, veneration is not the same as worship, which belongs only to God. Our icons (pictures) of Christ likewise help us to remember Christ's blood and body (being the person) as your oyster crackers and welch's does for you.

Its impossible the Eucharist host and wine be an icon:

 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
 (Mat 26:26-29 KJV)

There is no prototype, 1)Christ was still using His body and blood to pass out the Eucharist, which symbolized what yet didn't exist, the sacrificed body and blood of Christ.

2)By the testimony of Christ Himself, the wine remained wine after His consecration, He said it was "THIS fruit of the vine" in v. 29, not His blood.

Evasions of the issue are puzzling, nothing is gained while my argument remains towering over all, like the proverbial 200 lbs gorilla in the room.

Not that I mind, I consider it all joy.

Icons are bait and switch. A mystical experience mediated from far away versus communion with the indwelling LORD Jesus Christ:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Rev 18:4 KJV)


20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 (Rev 3:20-22 KJV)


To let Christ in, do PRECISELY what Paul commanded, repent and confess Christ is LORD publicly, before the eyes of angels and men:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 (Rom 10:9-11 KJV)

Then, while you are yet far off, God will hasten to you:

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
 (Luk 15:19-24 KJV)

He will come to you, and sup with you, and you with Him.


He will give you your marching orders then, when He is with you.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 01:56:53 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #152 on: August 05, 2010, 01:42:58 PM »

comes away believing God wants to be imaged.[/i] [/b]
We can't even say that all those who wear the veil of Moses over their sight come away believing like you after you went back and walked with the Lord no more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dura_Europas_Synagogue#Wall-paintings

23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
(Deu 4:23-24 KJV)

God demands exclusive devotion, no divided praise like that received by a prototype of an icon :

So why does the invisible God the Father demand that at the sight of His icon Jesus, His Son and , from the time the Magi found Him in the house with His mother until St. John saw Him amidst the Four Living Ones and the Twenty Four Elders, those in Heaven and those of the Earth and those under the Earth should bow down in worship to Him, in whom the fullness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell, to the glory of God the Father?

MANTRA REPEATED WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING
MANTRA
MANTRA
MANTRA
It is impossible to read the context and conclude
[MANTRA:] 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1Jo 5:21 NKJ)
It is impossible to read the context and conclude
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again (Mat. 7:1-2).
You quote the end of St. John, but he begins with his context
St. John the Theologian begins
Quote
1:1 That [rather "He"] which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full
Since you reject his words and his successor, you reject Him Who sent him.
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« Reply #153 on: August 05, 2010, 01:57:12 PM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?

Of course not, neither is making any of the images God commanded be made.

God forbade any manner of icon of Himself, as Jesus is God, and God doesn't change, it follows icons of Him are forbidden.

Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.

And since icons are forbidden, as Jesus is the icon of the invisible God (or so He claimed, and His Apostles taught) and God doesn't change, He forbade the incarnation.
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« Reply #154 on: August 05, 2010, 02:00:53 PM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?

Of course not, neither is making any of the images God commanded be made.

God forbade any manner of icon of Himself, as Jesus is God, and God doesn't change, it follows icons of Him are forbidden.

Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.


But where does it say that the cross can be depicted scripturally? Per my posts in this thread I have conceptually removed the icons of Christ the Pantocrator, the incarnation, & all icons of the saints according to what you preach even though in my apparent darkness I thought I was worshipping the Trinity but was closer to weeping for Tammuz. I presume that there is much to be concerned about what we see with our eyes when we worship even though we have no other concepts other than Trinity as we worship, we proceed to betray it by a graven image?

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« Reply #155 on: August 05, 2010, 02:04:02 PM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?

Of course not, neither is making any of the images God commanded be made.

God forbade any manner of icon of Himself, as Jesus is God, and God doesn't change, it follows icons of Him are forbidden.

Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.



So which are you condemning?  Any image of the Lord Jesus Christ (including such images in children's Bibles, books of Bible stories, Sunday school lesson books, little felt cut-outs used in childrens' church, etc), or the worship of such images? 

If the first, then Lord have mercy on everyone, for these things abound!  If the second, then I refer you to the Seventh Ecumenical Council (the second Nicene council), so that you may understand the Orthodox usage of icons.   
At least the Muslims are consistent (or more so) iconoclasts.
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« Reply #156 on: August 05, 2010, 02:04:30 PM »

Quote

Your argument is unsound, 1)bad behavior does not justify bad behavior; 2)I don't worship the host, symbolic or not. I eat it. So it is not an icon.



Likewise we do not worship icons, we venerate them. Your communion is an icon, a rose by any other name is still a rose. You do communion in remembrance of Christ, therefore it serves as a memory as Christ's blood and body, in essence it is a type of icon. Do you not revere communion? Do you not make sure that your heart is in the right place before communion lest ye be consumed by fire as were the sons of Aaron? If you do these things then you do indeed venerate the communion and it is indeed an icon.

Again, veneration is not the same as worship, which belongs only to God. Our icons (pictures) of Christ likewise help us to remember Christ's blood and body (being the person) as your oyster crackers and welch's does for you.

Its impossible the Eucharist host and wine be an icon:

 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
 (Mat 26:26-29 KJV)

There is no prototype, 1)Christ was still using His body and blood to pass out the Eucharist, which symbolized what yet didn't exist, the sacrificed body and blood of Christ.




but it was still a symbol, and it now symbolizes that which has passed (especially in most protestant sects where communion is only a symbol), it is a modern day icon in the protestant church, as are stained glass windows depicting Bible stories. For some reasons protestants deem these just picture because they do not worship them, but neither do Orthodox worship icons.

Call it what you will, but protestant communion (in which it is only a symbol) is an icon of protestant churches. Must you protestants protest everything? Can you never admit when you are wrong? I could, I guess that is why I am no longer protestant, and it is this same stubbornness you portray that drove me away in the first place.
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« Reply #157 on: August 05, 2010, 02:05:55 PM »

So is depicting the cross also idolatry?

Of course not, neither is making any of the images God commanded be made.

God forbade any manner of icon of Himself, as Jesus is God, and God doesn't change, it follows icons of Him are forbidden.

Pictures, statues, ect, of other things, of things that are not worshiped, are ok.



You are a form a Protestantism, so I'm going to assume you don't believe in Transubstantiation. Don't you instead believe that the Eucharist is symbolic? If that's the case, that makes your eucharist is an icon of Christ.

Your argument is unsound, 1)bad behavior does not justify bad behavior; 2)I don't worship the host, symbolic or not. I eat it. So it is not an icon.





If realized that the Host is Christ, would you worship Him? Refusing to do so indeed would be bad behavior.
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« Reply #158 on: August 05, 2010, 02:11:57 PM »

Quote

Your argument is unsound, 1)bad behavior does not justify bad behavior; 2)I don't worship the host, symbolic or not. I eat it. So it is not an icon.



Likewise we do not worship icons, we venerate them. Your communion is an icon, a rose by any other name is still a rose. You do communion in remembrance of Christ, therefore it serves as a memory as Christ's blood and body, in essence it is a type of icon. Do you not revere communion? Do you not make sure that your heart is in the right place before communion lest ye be consumed by fire as were the sons of Aaron? If you do these things then you do indeed venerate the communion and it is indeed an icon.

Again, veneration is not the same as worship, which belongs only to God. Our icons (pictures) of Christ likewise help us to remember Christ's blood and body (being the person) as your oyster crackers and welch's does for you.

There is no prototype, 1)Christ was still using His body and blood to pass out the Eucharist, which symbolized what yet didn't exist, the sacrificed body and blood of Christ.

2)By the testimony of Christ Himself, the wine remained wine after His consecration, He said it was "THIS fruit of the vine" in v. 29, not His blood.


You are attacking an argument that nowhere in dcommini's post is made.  While I am sure dcommini does indeed believe the Eucharist to be the Body and Blood, he is not making that claim at this time.  

What he is doing is making a statement, that your "memorial" is an "icon" despite your evasions otherwise, by the fact that it is indeed (in your theology) a memorial.  Every Christian denomination I have knowledge of, before partaking, recites the words "This is my Body... this is my Blood".   Regardless of whether you believe in an actual change, Real Presence, Consubstantiation, or symbolic interpretation, these words are stated.  The mental imagery of a Body and the mental imagery of Blood are conveyed by the words.



Quote
Evasions of the issue are puzzling, nothing is gained while my argument remains towering over all.

Yes, your argument is as a tower reaching unto the heavens.  No wonder your speech is so confused.
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« Reply #159 on: August 05, 2010, 02:20:01 PM »

Quote

Your argument is unsound, 1)bad behavior does not justify bad behavior; 2)I don't worship the host, symbolic or not. I eat it. So it is not an icon.



Likewise we do not worship icons, we venerate them. Your communion is an icon, a rose by any other name is still a rose. You do communion in remembrance of Christ, therefore it serves as a memory as Christ's blood and body, in essence it is a type of icon. Do you not revere communion? Do you not make sure that your heart is in the right place before communion lest ye be consumed by fire as were the sons of Aaron? If you do these things then you do indeed venerate the communion and it is indeed an icon.

Again, veneration is not the same as worship, which belongs only to God. Our icons (pictures) of Christ likewise help us to remember Christ's blood and body (being the person) as your oyster crackers and welch's does for you.

Its impossible the Eucharist host and wine be an icon:

 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
 (Mat 26:26-29 KJV)

There is no prototype, 1)Christ was still using His body and blood to pass out the Eucharist, which symbolized what yet didn't exist, the sacrificed body and blood of Christ.




but it was still a symbol, and it now symbolizes that which has passed (especially in most protestant sects where communion is only a symbol), it is a modern day icon in the protestant church, as are stained glass windows depicting Bible stories. For some reasons protestants deem these just picture because they do not worship them, but neither do Orthodox worship icons.

Call it what you will, but protestant communion (in which it is only a symbol) is an icon of protestant churches. Must you protestants protest everything? Can you never admit when you are wrong? I could, I guess that is why I am no longer protestant, and it is this same stubbornness you portray that drove me away in the first place.


But still not an icon, which has a prototype receiving the veneration.

Jesus was standing there with the disciples, they  were NOT venerating Jesus, they were communing with Jesus there with them while they ate symbols of His body and blood sacrifice to be given at Calvary.

Whereas an icon would have misdirected attention away from Christ standing right there, with them.

So the Eucharist is NOT an icon. Remembering Christ is not directing veneration to Him via icon, its an act of memory.

The omnipresent Christ is with those who celebrate the Eucharist PRECISELY as He commanded it.

Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!

 13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (Jer 2:13 KJV)
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« Reply #160 on: August 05, 2010, 02:43:46 PM »

Quote

Your argument is unsound, 1)bad behavior does not justify bad behavior; 2)I don't worship the host, symbolic or not. I eat it. So it is not an icon.



Likewise we do not worship icons, we venerate them. Your communion is an icon, a rose by any other name is still a rose. You do communion in remembrance of Christ, therefore it serves as a memory as Christ's blood and body, in essence it is a type of icon. Do you not revere communion? Do you not make sure that your heart is in the right place before communion lest ye be consumed by fire as were the sons of Aaron? If you do these things then you do indeed venerate the communion and it is indeed an icon.

Again, veneration is not the same as worship, which belongs only to God. Our icons (pictures) of Christ likewise help us to remember Christ's blood and body (being the person) as your oyster crackers and welch's does for you.

Its impossible the Eucharist host and wine be an icon:

 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
 (Mat 26:26-29 KJV)

There is no prototype, 1)Christ was still using His body and blood to pass out the Eucharist, which symbolized what yet didn't exist, the sacrificed body and blood of Christ.




but it was still a symbol, and it now symbolizes that which has passed (especially in most protestant sects where communion is only a symbol), it is a modern day icon in the protestant church, as are stained glass windows depicting Bible stories. For some reasons protestants deem these just picture because they do not worship them, but neither do Orthodox worship icons.

Call it what you will, but protestant communion (in which it is only a symbol) is an icon of protestant churches. Must you protestants protest everything? Can you never admit when you are wrong? I could, I guess that is why I am no longer protestant, and it is this same stubbornness you portray that drove me away in the first place.


But still not an icon, which has a prototype receiving the veneration.

Jesus was standing there with the disciples, they  were NOT venerating Jesus, they were communing with Jesus there with them while they ate symbols of His body and blood sacrifice to be given at Calvary.

Whereas an icon would have misdirected attention away from Christ standing right there, with them.

So the Eucharist is NOT an icon. Remembering Christ is not directing veneration to Him via icon, its an act of memory.

The omnipresent Christ is with those who celebrate the Eucharist PRECISELY as He commanded it.

Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!

 13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (Jer 2:13 KJV)


1) there was a prototype: Jesus. He was and is the prototype for the Eucharist.

2)How do you know that the disciples were not venerating Jesus as he was there with Him? Where you there? If you were in the presence of God who is also God's Son would you not stand in awe, reverence, and veneration of Him? If your answer is no then you are by all means disrespectful.

3)You obviously do not understand the purpose of an icon is not to misdirect attention from Christ, but to remind that Christ is worthy of our attention. Remembering Christ can be done through the veneration of icons, and it can also be done through prayer, not just communion. Through prayers, icons, or communions are all acceptable ways to remember Christ.

4) The Orthodox do celebrate the Eucharist precisely as Christ commanded us to, and we have since the first communion.

5) How do iconophiles look for a Jesus far away to worship? Because we chose to venerate icons that constantly remind us of who Jesus is, and what He did for us? No, my friend, the Jesus I worship, the Jesus who saved is me is right here next to me, He is in my heart and He is my closest friend. I look upon his picture daily, as you would of friends and relatives. I ponder His great mystery of being fully God and fully man, and I am amazed that the being so powerful as to create and destroy at will would be interested in my - the chief of sinners - salvation. That is the Jesus I worship.
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« Reply #161 on: August 05, 2010, 02:47:58 PM »




Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!



You must be thinking of different Iconophiles.  We use icons of our Lord, the saints, and the heavenly host to remind us that we participate in the heavenly worship here on earth.
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« Reply #162 on: August 05, 2010, 02:49:29 PM »


But still not an icon, which has a prototype receiving the veneration.

But your original argument was against imaging Christ. Veneration is a different matter, you were arguing that simply making an image of Christ is idolatry. If that is the case, then your communion is idolatry, because you say it symbolizes Christ's body and blood. It doesn't matter whether you venerate or not, that still makes it an icon of God. Something doesn't have to receive veneration to be an icon, it simply has to symbolize a prototype.
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« Reply #163 on: August 05, 2010, 03:00:21 PM »




Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!



You must be thinking of different Iconophiles.  We use icons of our Lord, the saints, and the heavenly host to remind us that we participate in the heavenly worship here on earth.

Aren't you equivocating? Orthodox icons must be venerated, all worship through them goes to the prototype and they mediate grace and many have mystical experience via icons.

Your icons don't appear to be Orthodox, are you sure?


In other words, if that is all icons are to the Orthodox, I wouldn't be arguing against them.


To defend your belief you must admit its your belief. If you redefine it, you have no possible victory, any "win" only proved what you don't believe, is true.
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« Reply #164 on: August 05, 2010, 03:07:30 PM »




Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!



You must be thinking of different Iconophiles.  We use icons of our Lord, the saints, and the heavenly host to remind us that we participate in the heavenly worship here on earth.

Aren't you equivocating? Orthodox icons must be venerated, all worship through them goes to the prototype and they mediate grace and many have mystical experience via icons.

Your icons don't appear to be Orthodox, are you sure?



Again, you are using worship and veneration to mean the same thing. They do not and once you understand this it will help you to see why and how icons are used. We do not worship icons, therefore no, worship does not go through them to the prototype.

Worship is for God alone.

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« Reply #165 on: August 05, 2010, 03:19:25 PM »




Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!



You must be thinking of different Iconophiles.  We use icons of our Lord, the saints, and the heavenly host to remind us that we participate in the heavenly worship here on earth.

Aren't you equivocating? Orthodox icons must be venerated, all worship through them goes to the prototype and they mediate grace and many have mystical experience via icons.

Your icons don't appear to be Orthodox, are you sure?



Again, you are using worship and veneration to mean the same thing. They do not and once you understand this it will help you to see why and how icons are used. We do not worship icons, therefore no, worship does not go through them to the prototype.

Worship is for God alone.



No, I did not. You are evading my argument:

God demands exclusive devotion, no divided praise like that received by a prototype of an icon. It is irrelevant if you allege some praise is dulia, and the other latria. God says He woun't allow carved images any praise :

"I am the Lord God; this is my Name. I will not give my glory to another, not My praise to carved images."-Isaiah 42:8 Orthodox Bible


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« Reply #166 on: August 05, 2010, 03:29:10 PM »




Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!



You must be thinking of different Iconophiles.  We use icons of our Lord, the saints, and the heavenly host to remind us that we participate in the heavenly worship here on earth.

Aren't you equivocating? Orthodox icons must be venerated, all worship through them goes to the prototype and they mediate grace and many have mystical experience via icons.

Your icons don't appear to be Orthodox, are you sure?



Again, you are using worship and veneration to mean the same thing. They do not and once you understand this it will help you to see why and how icons are used. We do not worship icons, therefore no, worship does not go through them to the prototype.

Worship is for God alone.



No, I did not. You are evading my argument:

God demands exclusive devotion, no divided praise like that received by a prototype of an icon. It is irrelevant if you allege some praise is dulia, and the other latria. God says He woun't allow carved images any praise :

"I am the Lord God; this is my Name. I will not give my glory to another, not My praise to carved images."-Isaiah 42:8 Orthodox Bible




You did and I am not evading any argument. We do not give praise or glory to icons. Most icons I have seen in the Orthodox church are paintings, not carvings so we can throw that argument out.

We venerate the icons of saints because of the lives they lived, they were godly men and women. We venerate so we may imitate their lives, and try to be as godly as they were. Icons serve only as reminders, they are not praised, they are not worshipped, they are not glorified. I tire of telling you this over and over again. I will not mention this again and if you continue to bring it up your arguments will be invalid since you are only repeating yourself but using different words to do so.

You have been defeated in your debate. That you continue to try is quite embarrassing to yourself.
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« Reply #167 on: August 05, 2010, 03:31:59 PM »




Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!



You must be thinking of different Iconophiles.  We use icons of our Lord, the saints, and the heavenly host to remind us that we participate in the heavenly worship here on earth.

Aren't you equivocating? Orthodox icons must be venerated, all worship through them goes to the prototype and they mediate grace and many have mystical experience via icons.

Your icons don't appear to be Orthodox, are you sure?



Again, you are using worship and veneration to mean the same thing. They do not and once you understand this it will help you to see why and how icons are used. We do not worship icons, therefore no, worship does not go through them to the prototype.

Worship is for God alone.



No, I did not. You are evading my argument:

God demands exclusive devotion, no divided praise like that received by a prototype of an icon. It is irrelevant if you allege some praise is dulia, and the other latria. God says He woun't allow carved images any praise :

"I am the Lord God; this is my Name. I will not give my glory to another, not My praise to carved images."-Isaiah 42:8 Orthodox Bible




If you will forgive me, but you have praised not only yourself, but the strength of your arguments many times throughout the course of both this thread and your thread on proselyting.  Perhaps before you attack our beloved icons, you should look to the golden statue you have built within.

You also have a love for quoting verses outside of not only their textual context, but historical context.  Quoting a condemnation of a graven image that is indeed stealing from the glory of God, as an image of Molech, Chemosh, or Ashtoreth does indeed do; speaks not at all to the images of Christ and His saints that we revere.

Finally, about the word "icon".  You must understand that a key idea in the Orthodox thought is that we are all called to be icons of Christ.  All men were created as "icons" of God, and through Christ we are called to be icons not only in appearance but in action.  The icons in our churches stand there as a reminder of this, and because of this we love them.  Just as we love the Blessed Virgin for birthing God, we love our saints for bearing God in their hearts, and we each seek to do the same in as much as we are given the ability to do so.
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« Reply #168 on: August 05, 2010, 03:45:53 PM »

God ordered the making of several graven images of things above and below heaven.
References to icons ordered by God in red.

Exodus 25

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
(...)
And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

According to all that I shew thee,
(...)
And thou shalt make two cherubims {of} gold, {of} beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: {even} of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. {of...: or, of the matter of the mercy seat}

And the cherubims shall stretch forth {their} wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces {shall look} one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

(...)

(In the same book and chapter, God communes with Men from among graven images)

And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which {are} upon the ark of the testimony, of all {things} which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

1 Kings 6
And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD, the length thereof {was} threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof twenty {cubits}, and the height thereof thirty cubits.
(...)
And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying,

{Concerning} this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:

And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

(...)

And the cedar of the house within {was} carved with knops and open flowers: all {was} cedar; there was no stone seen. {knops: or, gourds} {open: Heb. openings of}

(...)

And within the oracle he made two cherubims {of} olive tree, {each} ten cubits high. {olive: or, oily: Heb. trees of oil}

And five cubits {was} the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other {were} ten cubits.

And the other cherub {was} ten cubits: both the cherubims {were} of one measure and one size.

The height of the one cherub {was} ten cubits, and so {was it} of the other cherub.

And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the {one} wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house. {they...: or, the cherubims stretched forth their wings}

And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.

And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. {open flowers: Heb. openings of flowers}

(...)

The two doors also {were of} olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid {them} with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees. {two...: or, leaves of the doors} {open flowers: Heb. openings of flowers}

(...)

And the two doors {were of} fir tree: the two leaves of the one door {were} folding, and the two leaves of the other door {were} folding.

And he carved {thereon} cherubims and palm trees and open flowers: and covered {them} with gold fitted upon the carved work.

1 Kings 7

And under the brim of it round about there were knops which did compass it, for ten cubits, compassing the sea round about: the knops were in two rows, cast when it was cast.

It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east; and the sea was set upon them above, and all their hinder parts were inward.

And the work of the bases was on this manner: they had panels; and there were panels between the ledges;

and on the panels that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubim; and upon the ledges there was a pedestal above; and beneath the lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work.




2 Chronicles 3

Now these are the foundations which Solomon laid for the building of the house of God.

And the greater house he ceiled with fir-wood, which he overlaid with fine gold, and wrought thereon palm-trees and chains.

He overlaid also the house, the beams, the thresholds, and the walls thereof, and the doors thereof, with gold; and graved cherubim on the walls.

And in the most holy house he made two cherubim of image work; and they overlaid them with gold.

And he made the veil of blue, and purple, and crimson, and fine linen, and wrought cherubim thereon.

And he made chains in the oracle, and put [them] on the tops of the pillars; and he made a hundred pomegranates, and put them on the chains.

---------------------------------------------------------------


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« Reply #169 on: August 05, 2010, 04:33:54 PM »

God ordered the making of several graven images of things above and below heaven.
References to icons ordered by God in red.

Exodus 25

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
(...)
And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

According to all that I shew thee,
(...)
And thou shalt make two cherubims {of} gold, {of} beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: {even} of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. {of...: or, of the matter of the mercy seat}

And the cherubims shall stretch forth {their} wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces {shall look} one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

(...)

(In the same book and chapter, God communes with Men from among graven images)

And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which {are} upon the ark of the testimony, of all {things} which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

1 Kings 6
And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD, the length thereof {was} threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof twenty {cubits}, and the height thereof thirty cubits.
(...)
And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying,

{Concerning} this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:

And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

(...)

And the cedar of the house within {was} carved with knops and open flowers: all {was} cedar; there was no stone seen. {knops: or, gourds} {open: Heb. openings of}

(...)

And within the oracle he made two cherubims {of} olive tree, {each} ten cubits high. {olive: or, oily: Heb. trees of oil}

And five cubits {was} the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other {were} ten cubits.

And the other cherub {was} ten cubits: both the cherubims {were} of one measure and one size.

The height of the one cherub {was} ten cubits, and so {was it} of the other cherub.

And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the {one} wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house. {they...: or, the cherubims stretched forth their wings}

And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.

And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. {open flowers: Heb. openings of flowers}

(...)

The two doors also {were of} olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid {them} with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees. {two...: or, leaves of the doors} {open flowers: Heb. openings of flowers}

(...)

And the two doors {were of} fir tree: the two leaves of the one door {were} folding, and the two leaves of the other door {were} folding.

And he carved {thereon} cherubims and palm trees and open flowers: and covered {them} with gold fitted upon the carved work.

1 Kings 7

And under the brim of it round about there were knops which did compass it, for ten cubits, compassing the sea round about: the knops were in two rows, cast when it was cast.

It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east; and the sea was set upon them above, and all their hinder parts were inward.

And the work of the bases was on this manner: they had panels; and there were panels between the ledges;

and on the panels that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubim; and upon the ledges there was a pedestal above; and beneath the lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work.




2 Chronicles 3

Now these are the foundations which Solomon laid for the building of the house of God.

And the greater house he ceiled with fir-wood, which he overlaid with fine gold, and wrought thereon palm-trees and chains.

He overlaid also the house, the beams, the thresholds, and the walls thereof, and the doors thereof, with gold; and graved cherubim on the walls.

And in the most holy house he made two cherubim of image work; and they overlaid them with gold.

And he made the veil of blue, and purple, and crimson, and fine linen, and wrought cherubim thereon.

And he made chains in the oracle, and put [them] on the tops of the pillars; and he made a hundred pomegranates, and put them on the chains.

---------------------------------------------------------------




And that confirms images are not for veneration, not one of the images God ordained exist, was an icon.

That contradicts John of Damascus completely, if God wanted icons, these images would have been the start of them.

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« Reply #170 on: August 05, 2010, 04:37:31 PM »




Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!



You must be thinking of different Iconophiles.  We use icons of our Lord, the saints, and the heavenly host to remind us that we participate in the heavenly worship here on earth.

Aren't you equivocating? Orthodox icons must be venerated, all worship through them goes to the prototype and they mediate grace and many have mystical experience via icons.

Your icons don't appear to be Orthodox, are you sure?



Again, you are using worship and veneration to mean the same thing. They do not and once you understand this it will help you to see why and how icons are used. We do not worship icons, therefore no, worship does not go through them to the prototype.

Worship is for God alone.



No, I did not. You are evading my argument:

God demands exclusive devotion, no divided praise like that received by a prototype of an icon. It is irrelevant if you allege some praise is dulia, and the other latria. God says He woun't allow carved images any praise :

"I am the Lord God; this is my Name. I will not give my glory to another, not My praise to carved images."-Isaiah 42:8 Orthodox Bible




If you will forgive me, but you have praised not only yourself, but the strength of your arguments many times throughout the course of both this thread and your thread on proselyting.  Perhaps before you attack our beloved icons, you should look to the golden statue you have built within.

You also have a love for quoting verses outside of not only their textual context, but historical context.  Quoting a condemnation of a graven image that is indeed stealing from the glory of God, as an image of Molech, Chemosh, or Ashtoreth does indeed do; speaks not at all to the images of Christ and His saints that we revere.

Finally, about the word "icon".  You must understand that a key idea in the Orthodox thought is that we are all called to be icons of Christ.  All men were created as "icons" of God, and through Christ we are called to be icons not only in appearance but in action.  The icons in our churches stand there as a reminder of this, and because of this we love them.  Just as we love the Blessed Virgin for birthing God, we love our saints for bearing God in their hearts, and we each seek to do the same in as much as we are given the ability to do so.

So people grovel at your feet, looking at you reverently, while worshiping God?

Why not?

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« Reply #171 on: August 05, 2010, 04:37:47 PM »

No, I did not. You are evading my argument:

You've evaded every lengthy and substantial refutation of your points in this thread.  So your comment above should probably be filed under, "takes one to know one;" how awfully childish.

God demands exclusive devotion, no divided praise like that received by a prototype of an icon.  

*sigh* You bear no understanding of Orthodox phronema, so your condemnation sounds a bit like an English Language professor criticizing a Japanese Language professor for his grammar in Japanese.  I especially enjoy how you set up so many dichotomies that only exist within your framework, and not in reality.

It is irrelevant if you allege some praise is dulia, and the other latria. God says He woun't allow carved images any praise :[/i][/b]

I'll stop looking at photographs of my Wife, Daughter, Parents, Siblings, Goddaughter, etc., then, since I'm sure they wouldn't want any praise or glory going to the photos.  It's too bad - iconography reinforces the close relationship we have with the Lord our God, Who walked amongst us, Who called God the Father, "Daddy," and told us to call Him, "Father."

"I am the Lord God; this is my Name. I will not give my glory to another, not My praise to carved images."-Isaiah 42:8 Orthodox Bible

It's a good thing we don't disobey the Lord, isn't it!

Go ahead and deal with the many substantial refutations of your points that exist in this thread (and in the other thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29149.0.html ).  I'm sure you won't - you'll respond to the shorter posts and the ones (like this one) which don't claim to be specifically refuting your points.
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« Reply #172 on: August 05, 2010, 04:40:20 PM »

And that confirms images are not for veneration, not one of the images God ordained exist, was an icon.

That contradicts John D completely, if God wanted icons, these images would have been the start of them.

For a man claiming possession of the lofts of logic, this post is devoid of it.

His post is specifically in response to a foundational point of your argument - that God demanded that no images of anything should be made.  And yet you ignore that, and move on to something else.  It's a poor dodge.

And as for it "contradicting John D," it's St. John of Damascus, St. John the Damascene, or fully John of Damascus, and you have yet to substantially demonstrate that the above does indeed contradict what St. John said.
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« Reply #173 on: August 05, 2010, 04:40:59 PM »

God ordered the making of several graven images of things above and below heaven.
References to icons ordered by God in red.

Exodus 25

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
(...)
And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

According to all that I shew thee,
(...)
And thou shalt make two cherubims {of} gold, {of} beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: {even} of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. {of...: or, of the matter of the mercy seat}

And the cherubims shall stretch forth {their} wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces {shall look} one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

(...)

(In the same book and chapter, God communes with Men from among graven images)

And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which {are} upon the ark of the testimony, of all {things} which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

1 Kings 6
And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD, the length thereof {was} threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof twenty {cubits}, and the height thereof thirty cubits.
(...)
And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying,

{Concerning} this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:

And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

(...)

And the cedar of the house within {was} carved with knops and open flowers: all {was} cedar; there was no stone seen. {knops: or, gourds} {open: Heb. openings of}

(...)

And within the oracle he made two cherubims {of} olive tree, {each} ten cubits high. {olive: or, oily: Heb. trees of oil}

And five cubits {was} the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other {were} ten cubits.

And the other cherub {was} ten cubits: both the cherubims {were} of one measure and one size.

The height of the one cherub {was} ten cubits, and so {was it} of the other cherub.

And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the {one} wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house. {they...: or, the cherubims stretched forth their wings}

And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.

And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. {open flowers: Heb. openings of flowers}

(...)

The two doors also {were of} olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid {them} with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees. {two...: or, leaves of the doors} {open flowers: Heb. openings of flowers}

(...)

And the two doors {were of} fir tree: the two leaves of the one door {were} folding, and the two leaves of the other door {were} folding.

And he carved {thereon} cherubims and palm trees and open flowers: and covered {them} with gold fitted upon the carved work.

1 Kings 7

And under the brim of it round about there were knops which did compass it, for ten cubits, compassing the sea round about: the knops were in two rows, cast when it was cast.

It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east; and the sea was set upon them above, and all their hinder parts were inward.

And the work of the bases was on this manner: they had panels; and there were panels between the ledges;

and on the panels that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubim; and upon the ledges there was a pedestal above; and beneath the lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work.




2 Chronicles 3

Now these are the foundations which Solomon laid for the building of the house of God.

And the greater house he ceiled with fir-wood, which he overlaid with fine gold, and wrought thereon palm-trees and chains.

He overlaid also the house, the beams, the thresholds, and the walls thereof, and the doors thereof, with gold; and graved cherubim on the walls.

And in the most holy house he made two cherubim of image work; and they overlaid them with gold.

And he made the veil of blue, and purple, and crimson, and fine linen, and wrought cherubim thereon.

And he made chains in the oracle, and put [them] on the tops of the pillars; and he made a hundred pomegranates, and put them on the chains.

---------------------------------------------------------------




And that confirms images are not for veneration, not one of the images God ordained exist, was an icon.

That contradicts John D completely, if God wanted icons, these images would have been the start of them.

Really? How so? Because you say so? By what authority do you speak? Do you have over a thousand years of Church tradition to back your claims? You do not. Not even your Biblical claims support you as we have used the Bible to prove you wrong. You have been shown to be wrong now in this forum, and you have been shown to be wrong before you were born in the 7th ecumenical council.
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« Reply #174 on: August 05, 2010, 04:41:47 PM »




Bait and Switch: The iconophile looks for a Jesus far away to worship, while the Omnipresent Christ is standing right there!



You must be thinking of different Iconophiles.  We use icons of our Lord, the saints, and the heavenly host to remind us that we participate in the heavenly worship here on earth.

Aren't you equivocating? Orthodox icons must be venerated, all worship through them goes to the prototype and they mediate grace and many have mystical experience via icons.

Your icons don't appear to be Orthodox, are you sure?



Again, you are using worship and veneration to mean the same thing. They do not and once you understand this it will help you to see why and how icons are used. We do not worship icons, therefore no, worship does not go through them to the prototype.

Worship is for God alone.



No, I did not. You are evading my argument:

God demands exclusive devotion, no divided praise like that received by a prototype of an icon. It is irrelevant if you allege some praise is dulia, and the other latria. God says He woun't allow carved images any praise :

"I am the Lord God; this is my Name. I will not give my glory to another, not My praise to carved images."-Isaiah 42:8 Orthodox Bible




If you will forgive me, but you have praised not only yourself, but the strength of your arguments many times throughout the course of both this thread and your thread on proselyting.  Perhaps before you attack our beloved icons, you should look to the golden statue you have built within.

You also have a love for quoting verses outside of not only their textual context, but historical context.  Quoting a condemnation of a graven image that is indeed stealing from the glory of God, as an image of Molech, Chemosh, or Ashtoreth does indeed do; speaks not at all to the images of Christ and His saints that we revere.

Finally, about the word "icon".  You must understand that a key idea in the Orthodox thought is that we are all called to be icons of Christ.  All men were created as "icons" of God, and through Christ we are called to be icons not only in appearance but in action.  The icons in our churches stand there as a reminder of this, and because of this we love them.  Just as we love the Blessed Virgin for birthing God, we love our saints for bearing God in their hearts, and we each seek to do the same in as much as we are given the ability to do so.

So people grovel at your feet, looking at you reverently, while worshiping God?

Why not?



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« Reply #175 on: August 05, 2010, 04:54:26 PM »

Whereas an icon would have misdirected attention away from Christ standing right there, with them.
Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God" (NKJV) "ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου" (1550 Stephanus New Testament). image = εικων (icon)
Something about your statement doesn't seem quite right: "an icon would have misdirected attention away from the icon standing right there". I hope you're not trying to convince me of anything here.
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« Reply #176 on: August 05, 2010, 05:17:58 PM »

...nothing is gained while my argument remains towering over all, like the proverbial 200 lbs gorilla in the room.
Likening your own argument to a gorilla - what a delightful icon you have created! Don't expect me to venerate it.

....Lest you think I'm attacking you personally, such is not the case. Your knowledge and determination to press your point certainly deserve to be respected, though I and others find your zeal misdirected.
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« Reply #177 on: August 05, 2010, 05:25:46 PM »

Whereas an icon would have misdirected attention away from Christ standing right there, with them.
Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God" (NKJV) "ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου" (1550 Stephanus New Testament). image = εικων (icon)
Something about your statement doesn't seem quite right: "an icon would have misdirected attention away from the icon standing right there". I hope you're not trying to convince me of anything here.

Non sequitur, Christ is not like one of the icons produced in your icon factories.

He is an icon of God in that He is the image of God, but this doesn't apply to His flesh, only to His Person. Context proves that, it speaks of the Icon creating all things, that was before He was incarnate.

Moreover, unlike your detestable images, Christ is Person, who functions in the divine economy as "the face of God," that "side" of infinite God that condescends to enter the realm of the finite, to reveal God:

KJV  2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2Co 4:6 KJV)

In other words, had Moses been allowed to see God's face here, he would have seen Christ:

 19 Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
 20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
 21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
 22 "So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
 23 "Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."
 (Exo 33:19-23 NKJ)

Christ is the form of God He condescended appear in the finite realm of the creatures in heaven:

6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, (Phi 2:6 NKJ)


Your icons cannot say that, therefore they are not the same.

Your argument rests upon the fallacy of equivocation, the word icon may be the same as found in the Bible, but the meaning you give it has changed, to become detestable images Christ would barf at, if still on earth.

As Jesus didn't want His similitude imaged in Moses' Day, He certainly wouldn't want His incarnate Body imaged.

Or don't you realize Jesus is YHWH, the Word of God, the One who comes to man, to reveal God, or as here, rain down fire upon Sodom from YHWH the Father:

KJV  Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD(YHWH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD(YHWH) out of heaven;
 (Gen 19:24 KJV)



While I consider Stephanus 1550 as the Received Text, I thought you would prefer the Greek Orthodox Version, or is it the same text?

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« Reply #178 on: August 05, 2010, 05:33:22 PM »

Whereas an icon would have misdirected attention away from Christ standing right there, with them.
Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God" (NKJV) "ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου" (1550 Stephanus New Testament). image = εικων (icon)
Something about your statement doesn't seem quite right: "an icon would have misdirected attention away from the icon standing right there". I hope you're not trying to convince me of anything here.

Non sequitur, Christ is not like one of the icons produced in your icon factories.

He is an icon of God in that He is the image of God, but this doesn't apply to His flesh, only to His Person. Context proves that, it speaks of the Icon creating all things, that was before He was incarnate.

Moreover, unlike your detestable images, Christ is Person, who functions in the divine economy as "the face of God," that "side" of infinite God that condescends to enter the realm of the finite, to reveal God:

KJV  2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2Co 4:6 KJV)

Your icons cannot say that, therefore they are not the same.

Your argument rests upon the fallacy of equivocation, the word icon may be the same as found in the Bible, but the meaning you give it has changed, to become detestable images Christ would barf at, if still on earth.

As Jesus didn't want His similitude imaged in Moses' Day, He certainly wouldn't want His incarnate Body imaged.

Or don't you realize Jesus is YHWH, the Word of God, the One who comes to man, to reveal God, or as here, rain down fire upon Sodom from YHWH the Father:

KJV  Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD(YHWH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD(YHWH) out of heaven;
 (Gen 19:24 KJV)



While I consider Stephanus 1550 as the Received Text, I thought you would prefer the Greek Orthodox Version, or is it the same text?



So Christ barfed every time He entered a temple to worship?

If Jesus did not want His incarnate body imaged He should not have become incarnate, for He was surely imaged in the mind and memories of those people who saw the incarnation.

Saying that we should not image the incarnation of Christ's human body is saying that we should not take photographs or hold mnemonic images of ANY person, especially Christians as Christ resides in them.

Now, if you will please excuse me, I have to go say my pre-communion prayers before Divine Liturgy tonight and after Liturgy I must get my uniform ready for work tomorrow so I will not be able to debate you any more tonight.
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« Reply #179 on: August 05, 2010, 05:34:56 PM »

Alfred,

God said it plainly:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness {of any thing} that {is} in heaven above, or that {is} in the earth beneath, or that {is} in the water under the earth: Exodus 20:4

Thou shalt not make thee {any} graven image, {or} any likeness {of any thing} that {is} in heaven above, or that {is} in the earth beneath, or that {is} in the waters beneath the earth: Deuteronomy 5:8

Then, in several passages, He orders the making of graven images, on the very places of worship. On the very Ark. From between the statues of Cherubin, He will bless his people.

It is not about veneration or worship (although, they *were* in places of worship for some reason, and even in the Holy of Holies). It is about making or not making them.

So you have to accept that one of the following is true:

1) God is a liar and in contradiction;

2) There are more than one God in the Bible, one who tells us not to make images and another that tells us to;

3) The words in the commandment are not in the absolute, restrict sense.

If 1 or 2, you're no a Christian. If 3, then of course there are levels of meaning in those words. Because they are the ones in study, we have to look elsewhere to know what kind of attitudes towards images God allows and which one God forbids. This will be the limit of proper veneration and idolatry. Did God give us this reference? I believe He did in our saints and the way they dealt with images. But that will not do it for you, so let's look in the Holy Scriptures, which were selected and gathered by the icon venerating Fathers of the 1st Council:

And thou shalt anoint the tabernacle of the congregation therewith, and the ark of the testimony, Exodus 30:26 (Remember there were cherubim statues on the Ark. So they were annointed as well, and I doubt that was done casually or without reverence)

So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. 2 Samuel 6:15  (They celebrate the presence of the Ark. With the Cherubin on it)

And Shebaniah, and Jehoshaphat, and Nethaneel, and Amasai, and Zechariah, and Benaiah, and Eliezer, the priests, did blow with the trumpets before the ark of God: and Obededom and Jehiah {were} doorkeepers for the ark. 1 Crônicas 15:24 (Sacred rituals in the presence of the Ark. And the Cherubim on it).

And she said, The glory is departed from Israel: for the ark of God is taken. 1 Samuel 4:22  (The Glory of God manifests through an object man-made with graven images on it. The Glory of God even departs for the simple taking of such object).

And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me? 2 Samuel 6:9
And David was afraid of God that day, saying, How shall I bring the ark of God {home} to me? 1 Chronicles 13:12 (It is a great honor to receive the object (with graven images) that bear the presence of the Lord. I also will say a halleluia for those who find out which other passage in the Bible we see this same sentence in reference to another Ark, which too, was bearing the presence of the Lord.)

And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for {his} error; and there he died by the ark of God. {error: or, rashness} 2 Samuel 6:7 (A disrespect toward the images ordained by God is so serious that even death may be the punishment. Graven images ordained by God are that sacred - and should be, since they were put in the Holy of Holies after all)

And Joshua spake unto the priests, saying, Take up the ark of the covenant, and pass over before the people. And they took up the ark of the covenant, and went before the people. Josué 3:6 (Sacred objects are to be taken on procession before the people)


Now, after all this, God shows us the limit where veneration of images changes into idolatry:

Quote
Numbers 21

Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

First, God, as He usually does, orders the making of the graven image of a serpent wherein His healing Grace lies. Here we have a healing icon, like so many today. But even that can be corrupted. Later the serpent was indeed worshipped and God ordained its destruction.


In fact, one of the most astonishing punishments of God regards the dessacration of the objects from the Temple:

Daniel 5
1 Belshazzar the king held a great feast for a thousand of his nobles, and he was drinking wine in the presence of the thousand. 2 When Belshazzar tasted the wine, he gave orders to bring the gold and silver vessels which Nebuchadnezzar his father had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem, in order that the king and his nobles, his wives, and his concubines might drink from them. 3 Then they brought the gold vessels that had been taken out of the temple, the house of God which was in Jerusalem; and the king and his nobles, his wives, and his concubines drank from them. 4 They drank the wine and praised the gods of gold and silver, of bronze, iron, wood, and stone.

5 Suddenly the fingers of a man’s hand emerged and began writing opposite the lampstand on the plaster of the wall of the king’s palace, and the king saw the back of the hand that did the writing. 6 Then the king’s face grew pale, and his thoughts alarmed him; and his hip joints went slack, and his knees began knocking together. 7 The king called aloud to bring in the conjurers, the Chaldeans and the diviners. The king spoke and said to the wise men of Babylon, “Any man who can read this inscription and explain its interpretation to me will be clothed with purple, and have a necklace of gold around his neck, and have authority as third ruler in the kingdom.” 8 Then all the king’s wise men came in, but they could not read the inscription or make known its interpretation to the king. 9 Then King Belshazzar was greatly alarmed, his face grew even paler, and his nobles were perplexed.

Notice that in this passage, it is the act of treating the sacred objects (certainly not without graven images of lions, cherubins, oxen, palm trees and other things on them) as normal objects that causes a most amazing punishment.

God not only ordains the creating of graven images. He punishes their dessacration severily and teaches us the difference between veneration and worship.
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