1)Yes, its wrong. I wonder if the Prohibition forced it on some, they still had to celebrate communion during it. So you left a grape juice communion to bow before images. I fail to see the connection. Clearly you left a lot out. Connect the dots please...From grape juice...To icons...I just don't see it.
I couldn't find Athanasius saying what John of Damascus claimed, evidently neither could you, so you ignored my request.
Oh goodness gracious. Early on after you first came here, you completely ignored a number of things I asked you. That is why I eventually stopped dealing with you. You are not interested in dialogue.
And your reply proved the Athanasius quote genuine, how?
It was a pot calling the kettle black kind of thing.
Another couple of questions which I am sure you'll ignore:
Do you really think you are going to convert anyone over here? In other words, do you really think you are going to turn others to your point of view?
A lot of people here came to Orthodoxy from various forms of Protestantism. I, for example, attended a Presbyterian Sunday School as a kid. We've all heard your stuff before and have found it unconvincing.
So why are you here?
Actually its you folks evading facts kind of thing. I am here asking to see the facts, not a pot kettle thing at all.
Yes, I do think some readers will research these things.
Of course they won't suggest that to you, they see the way you treat me, how much worse would you insult them?
Going to a Presbyterian Sunday school clearly didn't make you a Presbyterian, just as going to a garage didn't make me a car.
I doubt you understood what you heard as a Presbyterian, bet you never bothered to check anything out by the scripture. Cite the precise Presbyterian doctrines you discovered were wrong with your scripture proofs.
I've heard the "I was there and now I'm here" bs all my apologetic life, I have yet to meet someone who really checked with scripture before they jumped ship.
Not saying they don't exist, just never met one while posting at various boards.
Mr Persson, plenty here not only checked with Scripture before they jumped ship, lives steeped in Scripture caused them to jump ship. We've given you plenty of arguments from Scripture in favor of icons, you've rejected them all (not successfully argued against, just rejected). Which is fine, no one says you have to accept our arguments, any more than we have to accept yours.
Speaking as a former Baptist I can give you three reasons from Scripture I left my former tradition, and a fourth reason (regarding icons) that was just plain "does not compute":
1) Grape juice and crackers. That's all I have to say on that subject. Grape juice and crackers. What are we, five? I read book after book as to why Southern Baptists believe "grape juice" is what was meant whenever wine was mentioned in a positive light, and they all fell before the words of the master of the feast: “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!” (John 2:10) I've had grape juice and I've had wine. I've had good wine and bad wine. No matter how much grape juice I've had, I can always tell concentrate from fresh pressed. Only when I've had a lot of good wine could I be fooled by bad wine.
2) The Real Presence. Hammered into me from the time I was little was the world is only 6,000 years old and was created in 6 days because that's what Genesis says. When our Lord says "This is My Body, this is My Blood" the literal interpretation is suddenly thrown out the window, because there's no way He could have possibly meant that!
3) Pre-Trib Rapture theory. At no point in any of the prophecies regarding End Times is there any hint that Christians have a "get out of Tribulation Free" card. In the intervening decade, of course, there is much in the popular Baptist eschatology I have issues with, but this was the one that got me thinking.
4) Iconoclasm- does not compute. Using the same Old Testament proof-texts as you, I was constantly told how Roman Catholics and the Orthodox were wrong because of their use of icons. At the same time, every church I went to had a cross behind the pulpit, and many of them had stain-glass windows and frescoes of Biblical scenes. Now, the 2nd commandment and Deuteronomy 4:15-24 forbid any image but images abounded, in the windows, painted on the walls, in our Sunday School books, in our Bibles, in our homes, etc. If we are going to live by the Law then we must live by the whole of the Law (James 2:10), if by Grace then we need to acknowledge that our icons are indeed worthy of veneration by the very nature of that which they present for view. If by the Law, then no images, not even photographs of loved ones are permissible.
2) 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luk 22:20 KJV)
Christ's words are figurative, there was no literal New Testament floating around in his blood, nor did it exist as Christ spoke. The New Covenant would not exist till AFTER Christ's blood was shed, therefore it is impossible He spoke literally.
3)Many Protestants reject Pre Trib rapture theory, as do I. BUT YOU jump to a church that denies the consensus of the Fathers Christ will reign a 1,000 years! Papias, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Caius according to Eusebius, Origin, Commodianus, Nepos accorinding to Dionysius of Alexandria, Victorinus, Methodius, Lactantius to name a few believed in the Millennial reign of Christ.
So by what law of logic do you leap from the few Protestant Churches who believe in Pre Trib Rapture, to a church that denies the Millennial Kingdom of Christ, an explicit teaching of Scripture?
NKJ Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
(Rev 20:4 NKJ)...
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years
were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired
, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
Clearly you have left something out, one doesn't leave a church because of a doctrinal error, for another church that teaches doctrinal error. You must connect the dots for me, From Error....To Error, how that is better or something God would want you to do?4)The "Council in Constantinople" had hundreds of bishops who believed as I, clearly its not a new opinion.
"Leo III's policy suffered from having no theoretical foundation in theology. To eliminate this handicap, his successor Emperor Constantine V Copronymos sought to have images condemned by the Church and to impose iconoclasm as a duty of conscience as well as the obligation of a citizen. About 752 he elaborated an original theology of images, which he developed into treatises and which he -- like his father -- defended in public audiences. Two years later he had it ratified in a general council of the Byzantine episcopate (338 council fathers attending) held in the suburban palace of Hiereia from February 10 to August 8, its prime ecclesiastical movers being three prelates of Asia Minor, especially the Metropolitan Theodosius Apsimar of Ephesus (the patriarchal see being vacant)." (New Catholic Encyclopedia , volume 7, p 327)
Throughout this thread I have given arguments why icons are a violation of Deut 4:12 ff, and not one of you have refuted the simple fact God forbade any kind of icon be made of God, and as Jesus is God, that includes Him, especially ICONS in the likeness of human flesh:
16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of EIKONA
figure, the likeness of male or female,
(Deu 4:15-16 LXE)
All who make icons of Jesus thereby deny 1)He is God; 2)He came in human flesh.
John of Damascus' argument we saw the incarnate Christ therefore we can make an icon of it, is directly contradicted by the fact Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw the similitude of God, and yet do not make images of it:
Moses didn't make an icon of God even though He saw His immanent nature:
LXE Exodus 33:23 And I will remove my hand, and then shalt thou see my back parts; but my face shall not appear to thee. (Exo 33:23 LXE)
KJV Numbers 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? (Num 12:8 KJV)
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground...
13 And the LORD (YHWH)said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD(YHWH)? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
(Gen 18:2, 13-14 KJV)
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD(YHWH) of hosts. (Isa 6:5 KJV)
NKJ John 12:41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. (Joh 12:41 NKJ)
Clearly you have left something out in your story why you became Orthodox, it cannot be Scripture gave you the idea.
If one had only the New Testament to read, and then appeared in this world suddenly, if asked to describe what a New Testament Church looked like, he certainly would NOT describe an Orthodox service.