Topic: What's wrong with proselytizing?

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings

As I read the thread on Catholic Answers (I was banned also, without explanation), I see some apologetic, others defensive, about proselytizing.

If one is honest, of course they are proselytizing, your not debating to be converted, are you?

I am a born again believer in Christ, no specific denomination. If not an iconoclast, against veneration of saints and Mary, transbustantiation by whatever name, I'd probably be Orthodox. I reject the filioque also, but do so for reasons that consistently require rejection of everything else added on after Nicea, a truly Orthodox Council were my hero Athanasius defended the truth quite ably:

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius. 


Sola scriptura for me gents...

But about proselytizing...might as well off me now if that isn't allowed.

peace
al

[John of the North]

Greetings

As I read the thread on Catholic Answers (I was banned also, without explanation), I see some apologetic, others defensive, about proselytizing.

If one is honest, of course they are proselytizing, your not debating to be converted, are you?

I am a born again believer in Christ, no specific denomination. If not an iconoclast, against veneration of saints and Mary, transbustantiation by whatever name, I'd probably be Orthodox. I reject the filioque also, but do so for reasons that consistently require rejection of everything else added on after Nicea, a truly Orthodox Council were my hero Athanasius defended the truth quite ably:

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius. 


Sola scriptura for me gents...

But about proselytizing...might as well off me now if that isn't allowed.

peace
al

I'm kinda confused here. Are you wondering why you can't come here and proselytise us with what you believe?? or are you wishing to know the Orthodox position on proselytising??

If you are opposed to the veneration of the Saints and the Theotokos, then I do have one question for you. Do you deny the Incarnation??

[jnorm888]

Greetings

As I read the thread on Catholic Answers (I was banned also, without explanation), I see some apologetic, others defensive, about proselytizing.

If one is honest, of course they are proselytizing, your not debating to be converted, are you?

I am a born again believer in Christ, no specific denomination. If not an iconoclast, against veneration of saints and Mary, transubstantiation by whatever name, I'd probably be Orthodox. I reject the filioque also, but do so for reasons that consistently require rejection of everything else added on after Nicea, a truly Orthodox Council were my hero Athanasius defended the truth quite ably:

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius.  


Sola scriptura for me gents...

But about proselytizing...might as well off me now if that isn't allowed.

peace
al

I was never part of CARM, but there are a number of Orthodox on here who were also banned from there, and so you might be in good company over here. I personally don't mind proselytizing for I was raised in that culture and so I'm use to it.

So no, I don't mind. I am more than willing to bump heads with you!  


I may not be as mean, rude, and cut throat as in my younger years, but I still dabble in it.....yeah. It's part of what makes me what I am.

Alot of people on here may not like proselytizing, but you will find some that do. Just be nice to the mods, and try to argue for understanding sake and not for the sake to win points.

If you do that then you should be fine. .....you are not the only protestant on the boards. There are others as well as some who are not even christian at all.



You may not know it now, but there is some conflict in some of the statements you said above. You said you were a born again believer, but also said that you embrace the Nicen/Constantinople 1 creed.

Do you know what the term Born again originally meant?

Do you really believe in what the Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed says? There are implications to embracing those creeds!

Do you really believe that you are not a part of any denomination? How can you say that you are Born again and not be part of a denomination? What does born again mean? What does being in Christ really mean?

What form of Christology do you hold to?

Why are you against Transubstantiation? I just want to know why? What are your reasons?









ICXC NIKA

[Alveus Lacuna]

Sola scriptura for me gents...

I didn't realize that the apostolic decrees of Nicaea taught Sola Scriptura. Can you please provide the reference?

[ialmisry]

Greetings

As I read the thread on Catholic Answers (I was banned also, without explanation),

LOL. It doesn't take much.

I see some apologetic, others defensive, about proselytizing.

If one is honest, of course they are proselytizing, your not debating to be converted, are you?

I am a born again believer in Christ, no specific denomination. If not an iconoclast, against veneration of saints and Mary, transbustantiation by whatever name, I'd probably be Orthodox. I reject the filioque also, but do so for reasons that consistently require rejection of everything else added on after Nicea, a truly Orthodox Council were my hero Athanasius defended the truth quite ably:

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius. 


Sola scriptura for me gents...

You're welcome to invent your own religion, no matter much it has nothing in common with the Faith delivered once and for all to the Apostles and saints.

But about proselytizing...might as well off me now if that isn't allowed.

Bring it on.

[FormerReformer]

Welcome to the forum!

I am a born again believer in Christ, no specific denomination. If not an iconoclast, against veneration of saints and Mary, transbustantiation by whatever name, I'd probably be Orthodox. I reject the filioque also, but do so for reasons that consistently require rejection of everything else added on after Nicea, a truly Orthodox Council were my hero Athanasius defended the truth quite ably:

Just to be absolutely clear: Are you saying that you only accept the following version of the Creed:  "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one essence with the Father. By whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not , or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion--all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them. " ?

Or are you saying that you accept the Creed as it was revised at Constantinople and is the one currently in use to this day?  The one that ends with "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, and with the Father and Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the Prophets.  And I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.  I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.  I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life in the world to come."  This Creed also has the addition of "And sits at the right hand of the Father" in the section on our Lord Jesus Christ following after "ascended into heaven". 

If the second, then you should also accept the First Council of Constantinople as being a "truly Orthodox council".

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings

As I read the thread on Catholic Answers (I was banned also, without explanation), I see some apologetic, others defensive, about proselytizing.

If one is honest, of course they are proselytizing, your not debating to be converted, are you?

I am a born again believer in Christ, no specific denomination. If not an iconoclast, against veneration of saints and Mary, transbustantiation by whatever name, I'd probably be Orthodox. I reject the filioque also, but do so for reasons that consistently require rejection of everything else added on after Nicea, a truly Orthodox Council were my hero Athanasius defended the truth quite ably:

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius. 


Sola scriptura for me gents...

But about proselytizing...might as well off me now if that isn't allowed.

peace
al

I'm kinda confused here. Are you wondering why you can't come here and proselytise us with what you believe?? or are you wishing to know the Orthodox position on proselytising??

If you are opposed to the veneration of the Saints and the Theotokos, then I do have one question for you. Do you deny the Incarnation??

Of course I am proselytizing when I come to debate...I certainly don't debate to lose the argument.

Do you?

How can you be confused?

A debater's claim of no agenda is sophistry.

Everyone has an agenda.

I argue its irrelevant to the greater good why I debate.

In other words, If I make my case well, prove it more likely truth than the other guy, then how is my agenda making that a bad thing?

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings

As I read the thread on Catholic Answers (I was banned also, without explanation), I see some apologetic, others defensive, about proselytizing.

If one is honest, of course they are proselytizing, your not debating to be converted, are you?

I am a born again believer in Christ, no specific denomination. If not an iconoclast, against veneration of saints and Mary, transubstantiation by whatever name, I'd probably be Orthodox. I reject the filioque also, but do so for reasons that consistently require rejection of everything else added on after Nicea, a truly Orthodox Council were my hero Athanasius defended the truth quite ably:

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius. 


Sola scriptura for me gents...

But about proselytizing...might as well off me now if that isn't allowed.

peace
al

I was never part of CARM, but there are a number of Orthodox on here who were also banned from there, and so you might be in good company over here. I personally don't mind proselytizing for I was raised in that culture and so I'm use to it.

So no, I don't mind. I am more than willing to bump heads with you! 


I may not be as mean, rude, and cut throat as in my younger years, but I still dabble in it.....yeah. It's part of what makes me what I am.

Alot of people on here may not like proselytizing, but you will find some that do. Just be nice to the mods, and try to argue for understanding sake and not for the sake to win points.

If you do that then you should be fine. .....you are not the only protestant on the boards. There are others as well as some who are not even christian at all.



You may not know it now, but there is some conflict in some of the statements you said above. You said you were a born again believer, but also said that you embrace the Nicen/Constantinople 1 creed.

Do you know what the term Born again originally meant?

Do you really believe in what the Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed says? There are implications to embracing those creeds!

Do you really believe that you are not a part of any denomination? How can you say that you are Born again and not be part of a denomination? What does born again mean? What does being in Christ really mean?

What form of Christology do you hold to?

Why are you against Transubstantiation? I just want to know why? What are your reasons?
ICXC NIKA

Thanks for the advice, I don't argue for the sake of argument, if I am proven wrong according to the scripture, I repent.

I wasn't aware CARM (I post there a lot) has banned lots of people, Catholic Answers does, all they believe aren't open to Catholicism.

As for our areas of disagreement, I will discuss all issues, but prefer to do so in their respective threads...otherwise everything is scattered.

peace
al

[Alfred Persson]

Welcome to the forum!

I am a born again believer in Christ, no specific denomination. If not an iconoclast, against veneration of saints and Mary, transbustantiation by whatever name, I'd probably be Orthodox. I reject the filioque also, but do so for reasons that consistently require rejection of everything else added on after Nicea, a truly Orthodox Council were my hero Athanasius defended the truth quite ably:

Just to be absolutely clear: Are you saying that you only accept the following version of the Creed:  "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one essence with the Father. By whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not , or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion--all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them. " ?

Or are you saying that you accept the Creed as it was revised at Constantinople and is the one currently in use to this day?  The one that ends with "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, and with the Father and Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the Prophets.  And I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.  I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.  I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life in the world to come."  This Creed also has the addition of "And sits at the right hand of the Father" in the section on our Lord Jesus Christ following after "ascended into heaven". 

If the second, then you should also accept the First Council of Constantinople as being a "truly Orthodox council".

I am saying I'm here to proselytize for Christ, the truth, the Christian way.

AND if that isn't allowed, ban me now.

As for all other issues, I will discuss those (if permitted) in their respective threads.

I've learned not to change the subject before its conclusion...

I love the bottom line, and if I go off on tangents before reaching it, I feel so unsatisfied.

Proselytize are us...what's wrong with it. As two or three proselytizers compete, the one speaking rightly shines, resulting in the greater good.

How does truth become bad if a proselytizer is the one who spoke it?

[Melodist]

In other words, If I make my case well, prove it more likely truth than the other guy

Truth is based on what's really there, not one's ability to argue their point of view or make the longest chain of scripture references.

[jnorm888]

In other words, If I make my case well, prove it more likely truth than the other guy

Truth is based on what's really there, not one's ability to argue their point of view or make the longest chain of scripture references.

Bingo!

[chrevbel]

I love the bottom line, and if I go off on tangents before reaching it, I feel so unsatisfied.

Well, I for one am still a bit confused on what your bottom line is.  You seem to be saying that you'd be Orthodox if it weren't for our generally negative view of proselytizing.  Is that about right?  But then you also mention all these other reasons you wouldn't be Orthodox.  Right?  So your bottom line seems to be merely informing us that you don't plan to be Orthodox.  Does that effectively sum it up?  You started a thread for this?  You joined a forum for this?

[Fr. George]

Alfred,

Welcome to the forum.

Proselytism, according to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytism):
"Proselytizing is the act of attempting to convert people to another opinion and, particularly, another religion. The word proselytize  is derived ultimately from the Greek language prefix 'πρός' (toward) and the verb 'έρχομαι' (I come). Historically in the Koine Greek Septuagint and New Testament, the word proselyte  denoted a gentile who was considering conversion to Judaism. Though the word proselytism originally referred to Early Christianity (and earlier Godfearers), it is also used to refer to other religions' attempts to convert people to their beliefs or even any attempt to convert people to another point of view, religious or not. Today, the connotations of proselytizing are often negative and the word is commonly used to describe attempts to force people to convert."

To that end, this Forum is a place for discussion of topics and ideas, debate and the like.  If the debate acts as proselytism to someone who is considering True Christianity, which on this Forum means Holy Orthodoxy (EO, OO, Old Cal), then so be it.  However, we have placed limits on this, to create a "safe" environment for those who are exploring Orthodoxy (and are, thus, in the middle of educating themselves about the faith) and those who wish to participate in Christian discussion without being proselytized.

To this end, the limits are generally understood as:

- No one may attempt to proselytize to a non-Orthodox (EO, OO, or Old Cal) faith or tradition, whether Christian, "Christian," or otherwise.  Those of non-Orthodox faiths are free to participate in all discussions; when debate centers around their particular faith, they are free to clarify (and, to a certain extent, defend) their church's positions.
- Those who are Orthodox (EO, OO, or Old Cal) are not to engage in "jurisdiction-stealing."

These limits are generally applicable throughout the Public Fora, but are not used in the Private Fora, to allow for more frank & polemical discussion.

Make sense?  So one is free to preach the Christian message here - as long as it is (a) Orthodox, or (b) clarifying your church's position in a debate.

[Alfred Persson]

I love the bottom line, and if I go off on tangents before reaching it, I feel so unsatisfied.

Well, I for one am still a bit confused on what your bottom line is.  You seem to be saying that you'd be Orthodox if it weren't for our generally negative view of proselytizing.  Is that about right?  But then you also mention all these other reasons you wouldn't be Orthodox.  Right?  So your bottom line seems to be merely informing us that you don't plan to be Orthodox.  Does that effectively sum it up?  You started a thread for this?  You joined a forum for this?

When I let my apologetic loose, I be proselytizing!!! I don't debate to lose...If you can't handle that, ban me now.

I will assume folks here aren't afraid of scripture truth, if no one hurls that stupid accusation at me...I just might write a book one day, the title:

Of Course I Am Proselytizing For Christ, Shouldn't Everyone? What part of gather don't scatter don't you get?

[Fr. George]

When I let my apologetic loose, I be proselytizing!!!

I suppose it depends on what you are defending as to whether your "proselytizing" is allowed or not.

I don't debate to lose...

Most people here debate to find the truth or proclaim it; it has nothing to do with winning and losing.

If you can't handle that, ban me now.

As a new user here, I'll suggest you stop using that phrase around here.

I will assume folks here aren't afraid of scripture truth, if no one hurls that stupid accusation at me...

If you provide scripture to prove a point, that's good, as long as all the other bits "jive," such as
(a) context, (b) audience, and, of course, (c) how you're interpreting it, taking (a) and (b) into consideration.

[deusveritasest]

I reject the filioque also, but do so for reasons that consistently require rejection of everything else added on after Nicea,

 

Given that the phrase "who proceeds from the Father" was added to the Creed after Nicaea I in 325 at Constantinople I in 381, one of the major arguments against the filioque is actually dissolved if you reject everything added after Nicaea I.

Sola scriptura for me gents...

Homoousios is so sola scriptura! 

But about proselytizing...might as well off me now if that isn't allowed.

Sometimes people debate simply for the purpose of better understanding what the other believes and trying to understand whether it is rationally internally consistent or not, not necessarily so far as for proselytizing.

[Tallitot]

From the OCnet homepage : "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith.."
Now I'm sure you've noticed that there are memebers, some of them frq posters, who are not Orthodox Chrisatians or even Christians at all. Some of them, like myself, were EO when we joined the forum, but stayed on after leaving the Orthodox Church to continue discussing various topics with online friends. We do discuss but we do not proselytize.
I must say, your tone has come across as fairly combative and and aggresive, and for meto say that says alot!

[kansas city]

This guy!   What a renegade!!!

[DennyB]

I love the bottom line, and if I go off on tangents before reaching it, I feel so unsatisfied.

Well, I for one am still a bit confused on what your bottom line is.  You seem to be saying that you'd be Orthodox if it weren't for our generally negative view of proselytizing.  Is that about right?  But then you also mention all these other reasons you wouldn't be Orthodox.  Right?  So your bottom line seems to be merely informing us that you don't plan to be Orthodox.  Does that effectively sum it up?  You started a thread for this?  You joined a forum for this?

When I let my apologetic loose, I be proselytizing!!! I don't debate to lose...If you can't handle that, ban me now.

I will assume folks here aren't afraid of scripture truth, if no one hurls that stupid accusation at me...I just might write a book one day, the title:

Of Course I Am Proselytizing For Christ, Shouldn't Everyone? What part of gather don't scatter don't you get?

So will you be proselytizing us to whatever current beliefs you now hold to,which looks like to me to be a "mixed bag", a little bit of this,a little bit of that!!,all the while using your reasoning of scripture to prove why your "mixed bag" of beliefs,are somehow more believable,than Orthodoxy,could be a hard sell here.

[Melodist]

If you can't handle that, ban me now.

Would you please stop saying that, find a thread covering a topic you would like to discuss, and make your point. If the moderators don't like the way you present yourself, they will make you aware of it a number of times before finally banning you. Either way, let your light shine.

I will assume folks here aren't afraid of scripture truth,

No one is afraid of scripture and everyone claims to have the truth.

What part of gather don't scatter don't you get?

This really isn't the place to "gather", it's more of a place to "scatter". Just throw your seed out there, see what kind of ground it lands on, and see what kind of fruit it bears.

[ialmisry]

I love the bottom line, and if I go off on tangents before reaching it, I feel so unsatisfied.

Well, I for one am still a bit confused on what your bottom line is.  You seem to be saying that you'd be Orthodox if it weren't for our generally negative view of proselytizing.  Is that about right?  But then you also mention all these other reasons you wouldn't be Orthodox.  Right?  So your bottom line seems to be merely informing us that you don't plan to be Orthodox.  Does that effectively sum it up?  You started a thread for this?  You joined a forum for this?

When I let my apologetic loose, I be proselytizing!!! I don't debate to lose

Yet I get a picture that you often have to take your tools and go home.

...If you can't handle that, ban me now.

Enough of the bravado. Actually say something, or take your martyr complex elsewhere.

I will assume folks here aren't afraid of scripture truth,

Of course not, most of us are Orthodox, the Bible believing Church.

if no one hurls that stupid accusation at me...I just might write a book one day, the title:

Of Course I Am Proselytizing For Christ,

not if you're soliciting for Protestantism you're not.

Shouldn't Everyone? What part of gather don't scatter don't you get?

Romans 10:2.

I'll get you started: you seem to subscribe to the heresy of sola scriptura, the topic of this thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13210.0.html

[SolEX01]

I will assume folks here aren't afraid of scripture truth, if no one hurls that stupid accusation at me...I just might write a book one day, the title:

A Day in the Life of an One Man Ecumenical Council

[Alfred Persson]

I love the bottom line, and if I go off on tangents before reaching it, I feel so unsatisfied.

Well, I for one am still a bit confused on what your bottom line is.  You seem to be saying that you'd be Orthodox if it weren't for our generally negative view of proselytizing.  Is that about right?  But then you also mention all these other reasons you wouldn't be Orthodox.  Right?  So your bottom line seems to be merely informing us that you don't plan to be Orthodox.  Does that effectively sum it up?  You started a thread for this?  You joined a forum for this?

When I let my apologetic loose, I be proselytizing!!! I don't debate to lose

Yet I get a picture that you often have to take your tools and go home.

...If you can't handle that, ban me now.

Enough of the bravado. Actually say something, or take your martyr complex elsewhere.

Ok, you asked for it.

Look for my thread on icons. I view them as the Early Byzantines did, they are idolatrous. I believe they are why we were run out of the Middle East. Don't reply to that here, do so on the thread I will now post.

[Robert W]

Alfred Persson's thread about icons:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29148.0.html

[ialmisry]

Alfred Persson's thread about icons:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29148.0.html

And about Perssonism:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29149.0.html