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Author Topic: Benedictine Monastery on Athos  (Read 3408 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: July 30, 2010, 03:48:29 PM »

A very nice article on WRO Monastery on Athos.
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2010, 04:33:55 PM »

Awesome article. Just on comment.

Control bar page 22/33:

"Nowadays only a few scattered hermits represent a human presence along the bay, and in the spot where old Amalfion once stood, a dense population of snakes has staked its own claim."

Control bar page 24/33:

"Given the snake infestation, a latter say St. Patrick would be helpful."



What kind of snakes are we talking about here? This seems such a poignant part of the story that one really wonders where the evidence is. Snake infestation? I trust they're eating something besides each other!

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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2010, 04:40:51 PM »

Mt. Athos and Greece are home to many snake species, many of them vipers. The undeveloped state of the Holy Mountain makes it rich in wildlife.
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2010, 04:59:33 PM »

Mt. Athos and Greece are home to many snake species, many of them vipers. The undeveloped state of the Holy Mountain makes it rich in wildlife.

I like the way you blend an unsettling statement with a strongly satisfying one.
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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2010, 05:17:37 PM »

Two more Greek snake stories--

The island of Andros (I think it's Andros), every Aug. 15, little snakes with crosses on their heads appear, no one knows from whence, and go to the church. They're totally harmless, but don't like crowds. After the feast, they go back home.

On another island, another snake found its way into the chalice and died. The pious priest, when he was finishing the Holy Gifts, did not want to throw out the snake, since he had mingled with the Holy Gifts, so he cut it up and ate it, all the while cursing the snakes on the island. All the snakes on the island then died.
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2010, 06:54:44 AM »

Heres a link to the u-tube videos Snakes of the Theotokos....http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=snake+of+the+theotokos&aq=f
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2010, 07:30:01 AM »

The Rule of St. Benedict is based on the Rule of St. Pachomios (of Egypt).

One might even freely suppose without serious expectation of error that there is no "reason" as such why Orthodox Monks following the Byzantine Rite in liturgy couldn't, under agreement and with permission, follow the Rule of St. Benedict instead of the Rule of St. Basil... There is nothing wrong with the Rule of St. Benedict. There's nothing wrong with the Rule of St. Pachomios either.
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2010, 10:38:33 AM »

A very nice article on WRO Monastery on Athos.
Excellent!  Many Years!
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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2010, 10:39:57 AM »

It's great! I very love the Western Rite!
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2010, 10:48:54 AM »

Iv never heard of a such thing as Benedictine Orthodox  Monastery ever, Is it one of those Western Orthodox confusions....How did it get up there, was it when the latins ruled by force the Holy Mountian Athos at one time...Enquiring Mind would like to know..... Grin

Thank you, stashko.  No confusion.

Actually, there is quite a lot of confusion. The OP is very misleading. There is no Benedictine Monastery on Mt. Athos. There was one there, but it has been totally defunct since the 13th century. I've been to the ruins of the former monastery.

That said, the article was very interesting and well formatted. However, the author is more than a little naive if he thinks the Holy Community would welcome a western rite establishment on the mountain. Ain't gonna happen.
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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2010, 10:55:58 AM »

There is said in our Creed: "I believe ... in Catholic Church".

"Catholic" means as well that it's possible to carry out the inculturation of evangelic massage in every particular culture. In Byzantine or Latin and so on. Thus, the rejecting of Western Rite Monastery on Athos is a pseudo-orthodox heresy.
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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2010, 11:05:53 AM »

the rejecting of Western Rite Monastery on Athos is a pseudo-orthodox heresy.

No one is rejecting anything, because no such monastery exists.
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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2010, 11:15:24 AM »

Actually, there is quite a lot of confusion. The OP is very misleading. There is no Benedictine Monastery on Mt. Athos. There was one there, but it has been totally defunct since the 13th century. I've been to the ruins of the former monastery.

I have not used the present tense.
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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2010, 11:55:12 AM »

Unrelated question: reading the account of a 15th century german friar to Mt. Sinai, a comment was made in that book that the said monastery "only repealed their allegiance to the Roman pontiff in the 15th century".
Is that true?
Were they referring to the rejection of the council of Ferrara-Firenze?
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« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2010, 12:15:54 PM »

Iv never heard of a such thing as Benedictine Orthodox  Monastery ever, Is it one of those Western Orthodox confusions....How did it get up there, was it when the latins ruled by force the Holy Mountian Athos at one time...Enquiring Mind would like to know..... Grin

Thank you, stashko.  No confusion.

Actually, there is quite a lot of confusion. The OP is very misleading. There is no Benedictine Monastery on Mt. Athos. There was one there, but it has been totally defunct since the 13th century. I've been to the ruins of the former monastery.

That said, the article was very interesting and well formatted. However, the author is more than a little naive if he thinks the Holy Community would welcome a western rite establishment on the mountain. Ain't gonna happen.

Have you seen the snakes then? Or maybe the place was just crawling with rabbits and foxes when you visited!
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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2010, 12:30:32 PM »

On another island, another snake found its way into the chalice and died. The pious priest, when he was finishing the Holy Gifts, did not want to throw out the snake, since he had mingled with the Holy Gifts, so he cut it up and ate it, all the while cursing the snakes on the island. All the snakes on the island then died.

How would it find its way into the chalice? It got into the altar area and then went into the chalice?

I heard the snakes of the theotokos have crosses on their heads. Is there a picture of the crosses?
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« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2010, 05:47:30 PM »

Unrelated question: reading the account of a 15th century german friar to Mt. Sinai, a comment was made in that book that the said monastery "only repealed their allegiance to the Roman pontiff in the 15th century".
Is that true?
Were they referring to the rejection of the council of Ferrara-Firenze?


I vaguely remember the Crusaders set up a monastery in Sinai, but I thought closer to Aqaba.  The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem I understand did patronize Sinai.  St. Catherine's on Sinai has been under the Patriarch of Jerusalem, and its abbot maintaining his headquarters in Cairo for about a thousand years at least.  The only thing I think it means is the Latin monks brought by the Crusaders died out.
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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2010, 10:55:59 PM »


Some photos of all that remains of the Italian monastery of Amalfion on Mt Athos



http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/07/amalfion-benedictine-monastery-on-mount.html
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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2010, 06:05:04 AM »

Thanks for that link, and especially that there is a link on it to Father Aidan Keller's paper on the monastery.

I do think that St Benedict is an entirely unjustly over-looked figure in Orthodoxy. I wonder if anyone has references to anything substantial and serious which has been written about him, and his rule and early Benedictine monasticism from an Eastern perspective?

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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2010, 02:09:35 PM »

As a sidenote, I carry a St. Benedict Medal along with my baptismal cross in a neclace which a Catholic friend of mine gave me. I wonder if that's inappropriate since that's not originally Orthodox but a Catholic devotion?
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« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2010, 04:24:08 PM »

Do you not think St. Benediktos is a Saint?

Only Serbia is real.

I had the great pleasure and honour of serving at a Serbian parish this morning and spending most of this afternoon getting to know its people, and I am very pleased to report that, from discussions I had there with some of the well-travelled parishioners, it seems stashko's approach to this matter is by no means univeral in the Serbian Orthodox Church, which is just as well, considering that the Serbian Church has western rite communities.
It does?
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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2010, 07:48:45 PM »

I'm against Have a Benedictine Monastery, on the Holy Mountain Athos...
It should never be allowed to open ever, it should be demolished.... Angry

You exhort to destroy a Holy Orthodox Christian Monastery, therefore you receive a 3-week-long warning. If you feel that my warning is unjust, feel free to appeal my decision to Fr. George or Fr. Chris - mike.

From what I read .....even way back in my protestant years, much of the rules of Saint Benedict were based on the Constitutions of Saint John Cassian. And as we know, Saint John Cassian brought to the west the Monasticism he found in Egypt. So what's wrong with it? Yes, the East and West have different traditions but if the roots of the Western traditions are based on the East then what's really wrong with it? I really don't see it as a problem.


Now it's been years since I read all this and so I am only going off of memory.......which means I could be wrong, and so someone can correct me if I am.







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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2010, 07:57:41 PM »

I think, perhaps, part of the confusion here is that many are not aware that, for the first 1,000 years, the West was completely Orthodox, in communion with the East, and shared saints. Our Liturgy of St. Gregory, the Presanctified, is ascribed to St. Gregory the Diologist, the Pope of Rome. We also venerate many other popes who stood for Orthodoxy, before their latter successors abandoned the faith. Roman Catholics venerate these Orthodox Saints, too, but that does not make these saints no longer Orthodox, for goodness sake.

You see, there is this thing called the schism, which occurred roughly in 1054, and was a real event by the latter 11th century. We do not accept as Orthodox saints after that time, because that is the time of departure into heresy in the West.

Does this make sense, Stashko?

I agree, however, one could make the case for the real/final split between East and West as being in the 13th century when Constantinople was sacked by the crusaders. And so from the 9th century to about the 13th century East and West were in a state of flux of being in and out of communion. For even after 1054A.D. Rome was still in communion with some Eastern Patriarchates.

And so some might be able to make the case to include even some post 1054 A.D. western Saints.






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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2010, 08:10:18 PM »

Do you not think St. Benediktos is a Saint?

Only Serbia is real.

I had the great pleasure and honour of serving at a Serbian parish this morning and spending most of this afternoon getting to know its people, and I am very pleased to report that, from discussions I had there with some of the well-travelled parishioners, it seems stashko's approach to this matter is by no means univeral in the Serbian Orthodox Church, which is just as well, considering that the Serbian Church has western rite communities.
It does?

Unless things have changed in the past four years, part of the remnant of the French Western Rite group, which had previously been under the Russian and later the Romanian churches, is currently under the Patriarchate of Serbia.  Other remnant parts are in various states of independence.

M
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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2010, 08:11:57 PM »

I think, perhaps, part of the confusion here is that many are not aware that, for the first 1,000 years, the West was completely Orthodox, in communion with the East, and shared saints. Our Liturgy of St. Gregory, the Presanctified, is ascribed to St. Gregory the Diologist, the Pope of Rome. We also venerate many other popes who stood for Orthodoxy, before their latter successors abandoned the faith. Roman Catholics venerate these Orthodox Saints, too, but that does not make these saints no longer Orthodox, for goodness sake.

You see, there is this thing called the schism, which occurred roughly in 1054, and was a real event by the latter 11th century. We do not accept as Orthodox saints after that time, because that is the time of departure into heresy in the West.

Does this make sense, Stashko?


No Not At All...There was still alot of differences, If communications were better the split [seperation]  would of happen way way before the date given from what i gleen'd from reading other posts....... Grin

Quite right. However, Saint Benedict of Nursia was 480 – 547 AD . St Cyprian of Carthage debated the pope of Rome St Stephen, but both the pope and he are commemorated. St Peter was from Palestine and moved to Rome, Constantine was from Rome and made Constantinople. Someone's pre-schism location doesn't automatically mean they are such a heretic that we reject them as saints. I think there are eastern saints who we also say could be wrong about a few things, but are still commemorated.

547 AD is more than 500 years before the schism, so I think it's not a simple matter that communication wasn't up to speed and if it was the split wouldve been in Benedict's time.

Also, the western rite is not necessarily "wrong." I am not sure the early church always had big iconostases.

Regards.
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« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2010, 08:24:00 PM »

I think, perhaps, part of the confusion here is that many are not aware that, for the first 1,000 years, the West was completely Orthodox, in communion with the East, and shared saints. Our Liturgy of St. Gregory, the Presanctified, is ascribed to St. Gregory the Diologist, the Pope of Rome. We also venerate many other popes who stood for Orthodoxy, before their latter successors abandoned the faith. Roman Catholics venerate these Orthodox Saints, too, but that does not make these saints no longer Orthodox, for goodness sake.

You see, there is this thing called the schism, which occurred roughly in 1054, and was a real event by the latter 11th century. We do not accept as Orthodox saints after that time, because that is the time of departure into heresy in the West.

Does this make sense, Stashko?


No Not At All...There was still alot of differences, If communications were better the split [seperation]  would of happen way way before the date given from what i gleen'd from reading other posts....... Grin

The fact remains, the East and West were in communion. If you are going to nitpick things with the West, then I think we can also nitpick things with the East, for the East has been far more lenient in matters of heresy than the West was in the Orthodox period. This is especially true in the case of Arianism. Also with certain compromises made to heal the rifts in the East over Arianism. But people today want to make themselves judges over the past, rather than accept it.
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2010, 01:11:58 AM »

I think, perhaps, part of the confusion here is that many are not aware that, for the first 1,000 years, the West was completely Orthodox, in communion with the East, and shared saints.


2,000 Orthodox Saints who lived in Ireland.   laugh

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2010, 01:21:08 AM »

Do you not think St. Benediktos is a Saint?

Only Serbia is real.

I had the great pleasure and honour of serving at a Serbian parish this morning and spending most of this afternoon getting to know its people, and I am very pleased to report that, from discussions I had there with some of the well-travelled parishioners, it seems stashko's approach to this matter is by no means univeral in the Serbian Orthodox Church, which is just as well, considering that the Serbian Church has western rite communities.
It does?

Unless things have changed in the past four years, part of the remnant of the French Western Rite group, which had previously been under the Russian and later the Romanian churches, is currently under the Patriarchate of Serbia.  Other remnant parts are in various states of independence.

M

In 2006 some priests and laity of the former "Orthodox Church of France" were received by Bishop Luka of Paris, Serbian Orthodox Church.  They were received individually.   They are not Western Rite.  The Serbs insisted they use the Byzantine Rite but they have permission to use their former  WR Liturgy of Saint Germain a few times a year.  On the other hand they have permission to use Western Rite for weekday services of the Hours.  I think I have that right but if not, I hope somebody will correct me.
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« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2010, 02:30:39 AM »

One Priest from France (most likely Romanian) said to me something like that ^
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2010, 04:07:02 AM »


Fr. a question if i may...As it was mentioned by a poster,they went from Russian to Romanian, now Serbian, are they  going to stay or are the going run the whole religious gamut jumping from one to another....


The journey of the Western Rite people inn France has not been entirely of their own making.

Originally they were protected by Saint John Maximovitch.  When he died the other bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad had no interest in them.

So then they came under the protection of the Romanian Church.... Problems developed and the Romanian Church acted in a most unchristian matter and dumped all the clergy into the canonical wasteland.   The story of Fr John Ross who was one of these Romanian WR priests is heartbreaking.

Now the Serbian Church has given some of the remnant of them a new canonical home..... but really the conditions which the Serbian Synod has laid upon them has removed their Western Rite liturgy.  It is permitted only a few times a year, and nearly all Sundays they are required to serve the Byzantine rite Liturgy.  So, since their reception by Serbia in 2006 they are being rapidly assimilated into Byzantine worship.
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« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2010, 04:13:02 AM »

In 2006 some priests and laity of the former "Orthodox Church of France" were received by Bishop Luka of Paris, Serbian Orthodox Church.  They were received individually.   They are not Western Rite.  The Serbs insisted they use the Byzantine Rite but they have permission to use their former  WR Liturgy of Saint Germain a few times a year.  On the other hand they have permission to use Western Rite for weekday services of the Hours.  I think I have that right but if not, I hope somebody will correct me.

Father, bless.

Do you happen to know why they left ROCOR and why the Serbs didn't accept the Gallican Rite?
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« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2010, 04:15:57 AM »

IMO the question should be like:

Why did ROCOR leave them?
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« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2010, 04:26:30 AM »

IMO the question should be like:

Why did ROCOR leave them?

Well that could be correct. I don't know anything about the circumstances surrounding the schism so I don't if they were neglected or something.
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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2010, 04:33:34 AM »

IMO the question should be like:

Why did ROCOR leave them?
Well that could be correct. I don't know anything about the circumstances surrounding the schism so I don't if they were neglected or something.
My answer would be: St. John was the only one supporter of WROxy in ROCOR. After he had died no other Hierarch knew the stuff and they did not know what to do with them. I suppose they weren't striving much also.

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« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2010, 06:20:23 AM »

The posts about stashko's opinion on Western Rite Orthodoxy were moved to Private Discussions.
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augustin717
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« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2010, 11:31:10 AM »

What did the Romanians do to them?
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Fr.Aidan
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« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2010, 12:20:57 AM »

I wonder the same. I heard how it came down, from an ECOF standpoint, about ten years ago. In my doddering state, I can't remember the details.
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