OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 20, 2014, 11:12:40 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Anne Rice's Rejection of Christianity  (Read 4239 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« on: July 30, 2010, 08:34:51 AM »

I was never a big fan of her books, but when I lived in NOLA I had met her a few times (her home was in the Garden District, not too far from where my wife taught school at the Ursuline Academy). After reading this article I started asking myself:

-How often are there people who leave any sort of church due to the behaviors of others?
-How can a person who claims to be knowledgeable in church history take this option?
-Can a person be a Christian yet worship alone?

I hope to get a good discussion going...not like the discussions we usually have here  Cheesy While the 'gay' word is mentioned, it is just tangential; and while the article mentions her political leanings we also do not have to discuss her pollitics in this thread.

Anne Rice Quits Christianity

Anne Rice Quits Christianity - "Maybe Commitment to Christ Means not Being a Christian"

Author Anne Rice announced yesterday that she's quit Christianity. However, she said she is still "committed to Christ."

Anne Rice said on her Facebook page, "For those who care, and I understand if you don't: Today I quit being a Christian. I'm out. I remain committed to Christ as always but not to being 'Christian' or to being part of Christianity."

Anne Rice declared her conversion to Christianity ten years ago. Previously, Rice had been an atheist after being raised a Roman Catholic. Rice has long advocated left-wing politics, especially in the area of gay rights.

Anne Rice's announcement continued, "It's simply impossible for me to 'belong' to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I've tried. I've failed. I'm an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else."

Anne Rice's choice to leave Christianity was announced after a flurry of posts discussing the Westboro Baptist Church and wondering aloud, "When does a word (Christian) become unusable? When does it become so burdened with history and horror that it cannot be evoked without destructive controversy?"

It could be argued that Anne Rice is still a Christian because of her devotion to Jesus Christ. She, however, has rejected the label. Right-wing Christians controlling the dialogue held by Christians in the public square seems to have pushed Anne Rice out of the organized religion fold. Rice's awareness of Christian history also informed her decision.

Should Anne Rice seek Christian churches that embrace her politics? Or is she indeed better off forging her own path? It's a delicate question.


Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2010, 09:16:52 AM »

-How often are there people who leave any sort of church due to the behaviors of others?
I think it tends to be one of the most popular reasons people venture off into being churchless but still believers, whether it is due to the actions of the clergy or actions of the laity.  Many people stay with a church for the support system and comfort it provides them, but if the actions of others are detrimental to their well-being (physically, mentally, etc.), why stick around and let the gangrenous limb fester?
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 3,363



WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2010, 09:32:10 AM »

She's scandalized by the action of people, not the actions of Christ.

There  is where a "formal" Christ-centered liturgical tradition that does not depend on people's moods could come in handy for those who still want to be in Church an yet do not approve of the hypocrisy and secularism of the "dead" members of the Church.

Considering her tastes, maybe she could try the Church, instead of denominations. Smiley
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
visitor
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Let's just leave it at a Canonical one, okay?
Posts: 110


« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2010, 09:36:54 AM »

What a narcissist. I hope she quits belonging to every group that is associated with evil: She'll be living alone on an island, as she is forced to make up her own language, and we'll never hear from her again.

Give it up, Anne! The people who do care about your stupid renunciation are people that you probably wouldn't want to know personally! Roll Eyes
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,948



« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2010, 10:11:25 AM »

What a disappointing development. I really thought that she was more mature than this.
Logged
Michael L
Priest Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 240



« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2010, 10:59:50 AM »

Her son is practicing h***sexual and she was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, I presume it was all too much for her.
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2010, 11:33:56 AM »

Kyrie Eleison!
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 3,363



WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2010, 12:03:48 PM »

Her son is practicing h***sexual and she was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, I presume it was all too much for her.

Possibly related to that really:

Quote
Rice says that she refuses to be "anti-gay … anti-feminist" and "anti-artificial birth control."
http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2010/0730/Anne-Rice-says-she-s-done-with-Christianity

What a pity. Lord have mercy on us who are yet to find a way to communicate this is in a better way and to properly fight those who slander the Church and Christ.
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,486


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2010, 12:11:24 PM »

Friendly reminder.  Step away from the moratorium line.  No apologies necessary for toeing it.  Just step back so this thread can remain open.  Thank you.

Schultz
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,688



WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2010, 02:38:23 PM »

she was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, I presume it was all too much for her.

I think the key here is that she WAS Catholic. Then she later converted to Christianity. And now she is upset about Westboro Baptist and a Christian teaching. To me, this says that her idea of Christianity, when she converted, became the idea that the certain organization represents Christianity. I mean, why couldnt she be like many of us see the heterodox- outside the institutional church, but still committed to Christ.

If we say that we are upset by the actions of church leaders or many adherents, does that mean we should give up the teaching if they are the ones outside of it?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 02:38:59 PM by rakovsky » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2010, 02:41:10 PM »

-How often are there people who leave any sort of church due to the behaviors of others?
I think it tends to be one of the most popular reasons people venture off into being churchless but still believers, whether it is due to the actions of the clergy or actions of the laity.  Many people stay with a church for the support system and comfort it provides them, but if the actions of others are detrimental to their well-being (physically, mentally, etc.), why stick around and let the gangrenous limb fester?

Then they should be consistent and go off to a desert island to get away from society, and stop limiting this excuse to rationalize their lack of committment to Church.

What a narcissist. I hope she quits belonging to every group that is associated with evil: She'll be living alone on an island, as she is forced to make up her own language, and we'll never hear from her again.

Give it up, Anne! The people who do care about your stupid renunciation are people that you probably wouldn't want to know personally! Roll Eyes
LOL. Excellent post.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 02:43:49 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2010, 02:45:26 PM »

she was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, I presume it was all too much for her.

I think the key here is that she WAS Catholic. Then she later converted to Christianity. And now she is upset about Westboro Baptist and a Christian teaching. To me, this says that her idea of Christianity, when she converted, became the idea that the certain organization represents Christianity. I mean, why couldnt she be like many of us see the heterodox- outside the institutional church, but still committed to Christ.

If we say that we are upset by the actions of church leaders or many adherents, does that mean we should give up the teaching if they are the ones outside of it?


If she paid more attention to Pope Benedict XVI than WB Baptist (why is she paying attention to ANY Baptist?), she would be better off.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,432



« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2010, 03:00:36 PM »

Who speaks for the irony-deficient? Where is there a support group and fundraiser for people suffering from a lack of irony?

This unfortunate condition allows them to say things like they don't want to have anything more to do with "quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious" people, while being hostile, quarrelsome and disputatious themselves. And then to stand oh-so-self-righteously on their conscience.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2010, 03:50:28 PM »

She was raised Catholic, became atheist, and then returned to the Catholic Church a few years ago. She has not become Baptist, or any other such Protestant variety. She is still, as far as she has said so far, a Catholic (who attends Mass, etc.) -- but no longer wishes to be labeled "Christian" due to political nastiness associated with that word these days, especially in the States. She's always had problems with certain Roman Catholic teachings on human sexuality, so that's nothing new.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 03:55:04 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,925



« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2010, 04:15:39 PM »

She was raised Catholic, became atheist, and then returned to the Catholic Church a few years ago. She has not become Baptist, or any other such Protestant variety. She is still, as far as she has said so far, a Catholic (who attends Mass, etc.) -- but no longer wishes to be labeled "Christian" due to political nastiness associated with that word these days, especially in the States. She's always had problems with certain Roman Catholic teachings on human sexuality, so that's nothing new.

Cafeteria Christians and social and/or political liberal Christians have a problem when they try to reconcile their personal inclinations and preferences with their faith. Sometimes it is hard. Other times it becomes impossible. May be Ms. Rice falls in that category, may be she did it out of frustration (with the discussion on that vile Westboro sect) or may be it was to show solidarity with her son.

"    For those who care, and I understand if you don't: Today I quit being a Christian. I'm out. I remain committed to Christ as always but not to being "Christian" or to being part of Christianity. It's simply impossible for me to "belong" to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I've tried. I've failed. I'm an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.

    I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen.

Even now, as she tosses off organized religion, Rice posts that she's still

    ... an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God ... Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been, or might become."
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2010/07/anne-rice-catholic-/1

ADDED: The problem with quitting organized religion, while claiming to follow Christ, is that you are cut off from the life-giving mysteries. How can one hold oneself to be a disciple of Christ is one does not take Him seriously? May be one can imagine a mystical union with the Body of Christ, but it would be impossible to ignore "...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink  His blood, you have no life in you."
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 04:21:49 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2010, 05:45:22 PM »

she was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, I presume it was all too much for her.

I think the key here is that she WAS Catholic. Then she later converted to Christianity.


Exactly what do you mean by saying she was Catholic but THEN became a Christian? I thought Catholics were Christian?!



Logged
88Devin12
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,928



« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2010, 05:53:48 PM »

Who is she and why is she important?
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2010, 05:58:44 PM »

Who is she and why is she important?

I was wondering the same but being a dumb New Zealander at the edge of the universe I didn't want to reveal my ignorance.   laugh
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2010, 06:35:51 PM »

Where is the logic in this? How can one be "committed to Christ" but not be a Christian?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Michael L
Priest Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 240



« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2010, 06:54:42 PM »

Who is she and why is she important?

I was wondering the same but being a dumb New Zealander at the edge of the universe I didn't want to reveal my ignorance.   laugh

Father bless,

She is a prominent American author. She wrote a series of vampire books and most recently a series of books loosely based upon the life of Christ. The latter were written after she returned to the Roman Catholic faith of her youth after spending many years as an Atheist.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 06:55:31 PM by Sinner Servant » Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2010, 08:33:29 PM »

I was very saddened to read this.  But we shouldn't give up hope that she will return one day.

One of her "vampire" novels, "Memnoch the Devil", written before her much-publicized conversion, is an amazing tour de force in the tradition of Dante's Inferno.  I read it during one of my "atheist phases" and it definitely shook me up qute a bit with the force of her very obvious love for Christ.

Who knows?  But I know from my own experience that I've been in and out of Faith many times in my life.  If her love for Christ is real, He won't let her stay away too long.
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,348


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2010, 09:23:51 PM »

she was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, I presume it was all too much for her.

I think the key here is that she WAS Catholic. Then she later converted to Christianity.

Exactly what do you mean by saying she was Catholic but THEN became a Christian? I thought Catholics were Christian?!


Exactly.  I've always balked at this "born again" terminology which equates Protestant with Christian and Orthodox/Catholic with idolator.


Cafeteria Christians and social and/or political liberal Christians have a problem when they try to reconcile their personal inclinations and preferences with their faith. Sometimes it is hard. Other times it becomes impossible...I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen.

I can’t buy this post in its entirety.  Being “anti-artificial birth control”, “anti-Democrat”, or “anti-science” aren’t yardsticks by which one measures their Christianity.  I don’t believe that science and faith are mutually exclusive, and thankfully, neither does my doctor, I’m not opposed to preventative birth control, I’m socially and politically liberal on a lot of issues, especially those involving so-called “race”, I believe in equal pay and opportunities for progress for women, and I vote Democrat most of the time, and I’m also an Orthodox Christian.  There’s no conflict there at all for me, and I have no trouble reconciling any of my views with those of the Church.

Logged

My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,688



WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2010, 02:36:48 AM »

she was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, I presume it was all too much for her.

I think the key here is that she WAS Catholic. Then she later converted to Christianity.


Exactly what do you mean by saying she was Catholic but THEN became a Christian? I thought Catholics were Christian?!

I misunderstood, and thought she converted to Calvinism, and that's why she was concerned with WB. Many "evangelical" Calvinists distinguish between someone who is Catholic and someone who is Christian.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,688



WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2010, 02:50:31 AM »

Cafeteria Christians and social and/or political liberal Christians have a problem when they try to reconcile their personal inclinations and preferences with their faith. Sometimes it is hard. Other times it becomes impossible...I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen.

I can’t buy this post in its entirety.  Being “anti-artificial birth control”, “anti-Democrat”, or “anti-science” aren’t yardsticks by which one measures their Christianity.  I don’t believe that science and faith are mutually exclusive, and thankfully, neither does my doctor, I’m not opposed to preventative birth control, I’m socially and politically liberal on a lot of issues, especially those involving so-called “race”, I believe in equal pay and opportunities for progress for women, and I vote Democrat most of the time, and I’m also an Orthodox Christian.  There’s no conflict there at all for me, and I have no trouble reconciling any of my views with those of the Church.
Yes, I agree with Antonious on this. I don't see economic leftism as harder to match with Christianity, since most of Our People were working-class immigrants in the labor movement.

It seems that libertarians would have the hardest time, because they are culturally liberal (eg. strong "feminist"), while downplaying organized charity and providing for people's social welfare.
Nonetheless, I don't think Christianity is necessarily anti-feminist, pro-racist, anti-science, or theocratic, which she suggests. For one of her biggest issues, I had been taught a certain way in a private highschool, and then talked about the topic with my priest and was persuaded by him. So it seems we cannot simply rule out that the church is actually right or insightful and declare ourselves unChristian based on some disagreements, which aren't core to Christianity anyway. I think you should talk with people and priest before making this decision.
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,384


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2010, 03:26:39 AM »

During my wilderness years between Evangelicalism and Orthodoxy, I wrote a book called Consciousness of the Eternal: Spiritual Hope and Spiritual Truth apart from Organized Religion. Fortunately it was never published. Like Anne Rice, I tried to differentiate Christ from Christianity. I would often tell people, "I'm not a Christian; I'm a follower of Christ." I had become so disillusioned with Evangelicalism (ironically for reasons that are quite the opposite of Ms. Rice's, such as what I perceived to be these churches' tepid opposition to abortion) that I took the "invisible universal Church" idea to its extreme conclusion and declared myself a part of this amorphous "spiritual body" that was much more authentic than the "organized Christianity" that congregated within concrete walls. Soren Kierkegaard's Attack Upon Christendom and Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You were two very influential books on my life during that time.

In retrospect, I honestly think that I did draw nearer to Christ in those years than I previously had as a member of various Protestant churches. And those years were formative in preparing my heart for Orthodoxy. If I had not rejected the false Christianity of Evangelical Protestantism, I would never have found Orthodoxy. But can I also see that those were very dangerous times for me as well. I began attending a Mosque and also flirted with the B'hai Faith. Eventually I embraced the Rastafari path. But I am thankful that my faith in the deity of Christ and in the the Holy Trinity was never compromised. And I am deeply indebted to and grateful for the Christian legacy and teachings of Emperor Haile Selassie I, because without H.I.M. I may very easily have become prey for these demonic and idolatrous religions that lay in wait for so many of God's disillusioned children.

So, I hope Ann Rice will discover Orthodoxy and find the spiritual Truth for which she has been searching. With her love for mystical things, I think Orthodoxy could very easily appeal to her. But I am concerned about her moral confusion. In the Orthdox Church, I found the consistent and unambiguous moral clarity that was sorely lacking in Evangelicalism. (Although, those who read through this forum without having a firm knowledge of apostolic Church Teaching may be scratching their heads at that statement. Wink) If Ann Rice is looking for a feminist faith, then Orthdoxy is certainly not for her. But if she is truly looking for the authentic experience of Christ Our Lord, then the Mother Church is waiting to welcome her with open arms.

Let us pray for her.

"Lord have mercy."


Selam
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 03:30:01 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2010, 03:47:50 AM »

Is she set to release a new book soon? Wink
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,934



« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2010, 04:02:16 AM »

So, I hope Ann Rice will discover Orthodoxy and find the spiritual Truth for which she has been searching. With her love for mystical things, I think Orthodoxy could very easily appeal to her.

Why do you think that Orthodoxy would be more interesting option to her than Roman Catholism If she's rejecting Roman Catholism because of various moral and political issues which Orthodoxy shares with Roman Catholism?

But of course miracles can always happen. Through the prayers of St. Anne and her Guardian Angel, may Lord have mercy on her and bring her Home.
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,384


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2010, 04:19:20 AM »

So, I hope Ann Rice will discover Orthodoxy and find the spiritual Truth for which she has been searching. With her love for mystical things, I think Orthodoxy could very easily appeal to her.

Why do you think that Orthodoxy would be more interesting option to her than Roman Catholism If she's rejecting Roman Catholism because of various moral and political issues which Orthodoxy shares with Roman Catholism?



Because I believe that the True Church is the embodiment of authentic mysticism and authentic morality. False religions and heterodox christianity offers only a facade of the spiritual depth that our souls crave and the moral truth that is indellibly inscribed upon our consciences. When we encounter Orthodoxy, our souls intuitively recognize it as home; but the heart must volitionally submit. The seminal question is whether one wants to feed the soul or satisfy the vagaries of the heart and mind. Some choose to chase the passionate urgings of the human heart and the meandering streams of mortal logic, and they do so to the detriment of their souls. But others choose to nurture their souls even at the expense of offending their own human emotions and their own finite reasoning. In time, however, Orthodoxy cures them of the spiritual schizophrenic angst from which most people in the world suffer acutely.


Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
PrincessMommy
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 734


OCA


« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2010, 06:16:33 AM »

Is she set to release a new book soon? Wink

The cynic in me wonders the same thing.
Logged
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2010, 11:25:21 AM »

she was a member of the Roman Catholic Church, I presume it was all too much for her.

I think the key here is that she WAS Catholic. Then she later converted to Christianity.


Exactly what do you mean by saying she was Catholic but THEN became a Christian? I thought Catholics were Christian?!

I misunderstood, and thought she converted to Calvinism, and that's why she was concerned with WB. Many "evangelical" Calvinists distinguish between someone who is Catholic and someone who is Christian.


Gotchya! Thanks for clearing that up! Smiley
Logged
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,348


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2010, 11:43:40 AM »

Cafeteria Christians and social and/or political liberal Christians have a problem when they try to reconcile their personal inclinations and preferences with their faith. Sometimes it is hard. Other times it becomes impossible...I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen.

I can’t buy this post in its entirety.  Being “anti-artificial birth control”, “anti-Democrat”, or “anti-science” aren’t yardsticks by which one measures their Christianity.  I don’t believe that science and faith are mutually exclusive, and thankfully, neither does my doctor, I’m not opposed to preventative birth control, I’m socially and politically liberal on a lot of issues, especially those involving so-called “race”, I believe in equal pay and opportunities for progress for women, and I vote Democrat most of the time, and I’m also an Orthodox Christian.  There’s no conflict there at all for me, and I have no trouble reconciling any of my views with those of the Church.
Yes, I agree with Antonious on this. I don't see economic leftism as harder to match with Christianity, since most of Our People were working-class immigrants in the labor movement.

It seems that libertarians would have the hardest time, because they are culturally liberal (eg. strong "feminist"), while downplaying organized charity and providing for people's social welfare.
Nonetheless, I don't think Christianity is necessarily anti-feminist, pro-racist, anti-science, or theocratic, which she suggests. For one of her biggest issues, I had been taught a certain way in a private highschool, and then talked about the topic with my priest and was persuaded by him. So it seems we cannot simply rule out that the church is actually right or insightful and declare ourselves unChristian based on some disagreements, which aren't core to Christianity anyway. I think you should talk with people and priest before making this decision.

All excellent points, Rakovsky.  It seems to me that a person who would characterize Christianity as pro-racist, anti-feminist, or anti-science is perhaps limited in their scope of experiences with Christianity, and I suppose this also ties into that troublesome and false juxtaposition of Catholicism/Orthodoxy on the one hand and Evangelical Protestantism as Christianity en toto on the other.

If all an individual has been exposed to in terms of "Christianity" is the kind of theological refuse spewed by Bob Jones University types, prattling on about how "interracial dating violates the natural boundaries established by God" and trying to back that up by twisting Scripture to suit their erroneous claims, then that person is going to think that "Christians" are racists.  But if that same individual ever encounters Orthodoxy, which is antithetical to such nonsense, then they'd quickly see that they'd been judging "Christianity" by very narrow standards indeed.

The term "Christian" has a certain connotation in this country that is employed by elements on the right and left to suit their own political and social agendas, and unfortunately, it often goes unchallenged by those of us who are actually trying to live out our lives in a Christian fashion, because many of us, believe it or not, are not big politicos.  I think Ms. Rice is seizing on and taking advantage of this, perhaps for publicity purposes.  She knows she'll get an "Amen!" from the militant atheist far left, and get the rise she wants out of the perpetually angry, red-faced, Archie Bunker element of the far right, get a heap of free publicity and sell a bunch of tawdry books, and meanwhile, the "silent majority" of Christians (Orthodox or otherwise) will keep chugging along, focusing on our salvation and the kingdom that is to come.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 11:52:04 AM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2010, 12:29:38 PM »

It's not so clear that she is rejecting Catholicism. Many Catholics would agree with her "I refuse to be anti-" statements.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,348


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2010, 12:58:52 PM »

It's not so clear that she is rejecting Catholicism. Many Catholics would agree with her "I refuse to be anti-" statements.

So would many Orthodox.  At least with a few of them.  Anyone who expects a Christian to automatically be anti-feminist, anti-artificial birth control, anti-Democrat (as if one party is any closer to the morality of the Church than the other), or anti-science is delusional.  It's illogical and unreasonable to create this false dichotomy between being socially/politically liberal on any issue at all and being a Christian.

Her definition of a Christian, and her characterization of how a Christian thinks and acts, seems to be extraordinarily narrow at best and straight up disingenuous at worst.  She's restricting herself to Christianity as defined by the talking heads on the far left and the far right, and that does all followers of Christ a great disservice.  I have to believe she knows better.
Logged

My sins run out behind me and I do not see them, but today I am coming to judge the errors of another.
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2010, 01:53:51 PM »

Perhaps she should have become an Episcopalian ...
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2010, 02:01:50 PM »

Anne Rice posted this (a response from a reader) on her facebook page:

Quote
Anne,

I want to tell you that I am revert as well. Thanks to people from EWTN and yourself I am back in the Church today. Without people like yourself and allowing God to work through you I fear where people like me would end up.

We need people writing and speaking of Christ every day. Loving Him and wanting to be with Him. That is what you did. I can remember when you said that you consecrated your writing to Christ. That raised such hope in me. My immediate response was, what could I consecrate to Christ? What could I give Him to show love? God working through you sparked that question inside me.

God has a special plan for each person. We decide if we want to follow Him or not. God has given you many Blessings and great responsibility and your reversion echoes throughout the land in a loud proclamation that God is real and He Loves us all.

In the end, you are right, Christians do suck. We are all terrible examples of what we are called to be. When we try to like Him, we fail and we will always fail, that is why we need Jesus. We need Him to save us through His Cross.

St Augustine says that the Church is not a museum for saints, but a hospital for sinners. We are all sick and we are yearning for the doctor (Christ). Keep your eye on Christ and His Blessed Mother and they will keep your near. You are very dear and precious to them. I will pray for you and perhaps we will both be united forever within the Holy Trinity and at that time I will thank you for your writings of Christ.

Viva Cristo Rey!

Dan Ritosa
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 02:02:15 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2010, 02:20:39 PM »



The side discussion about "race" has been split off and can be found here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29103.0.html

Northern Pines, Religious Topics Forum Moderator
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2010, 09:21:41 PM »

Perhaps she should have become an Episcopalian ...

That would have been a possibility if she had worked through these bizarre hang-ups she has about the word "Christian".
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,922


« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2010, 12:38:16 PM »

Is she set to release a new book soon? Wink

The cynic in me wonders the same thing.
My suspicions are here too; perhaps the Christian franchise was not lucrative enough.
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Milliardo
Saviour Gundam Pilot
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 88


Saviour Gundam Pilot

Milliardo
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2010, 04:49:03 PM »

Is she set to release a new book soon? Wink

Being controversial does put one back into the limelight, so I think that this might be the case, too...
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,948



« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2010, 05:56:13 PM »

I thought this one-star review from Amazon.com of her last book - Called Out of Darkness: An Anne Rice Memoir seemed pretty insightful, especially taking this new event into account:

Anne Rice: Hypocrite A One Star Rating.

Called Out of Darkness: A Spiritual Confession? The subtitle is a misnomer; more apt subtitle: "A mercenary confession," i.e., "I did it for the money, honey." "Interview" was likely an experimentation with the erotica that she loved, coupled with the San Francisco hippie-era characters and academic community, which she knew would sell the book. After that, she never looked back.

I can't believe the glowing comments on this hypocrite's latest venal venture. Wolf in sheep's clothing and all that. She spent the first half of her life cleaning up financially writing erotica in the form of vampire books, bumped up a notch with the fairy tale BEAUTY series (under the pseudonym A. N. Roquelaure). She's intelligent and educated, and knew how to turn a phrase to appeal to the young, the gullible, the sexually repressed, the purely fantasy driven, the sexually infantile (or sophisticated, IF they read her work as a socially acceptable -- no one could fire or ostracize a reader of an author who appeared on Charlie Rose!).

Simply put: Anne Rice cleaned up on "the dark side," then switched and is now cleaning up on the "light" side. She is a HYPOCRITE. Anyone who can't see her sleight of hand needs to study magicians (stage variety), carnival folk, grifters, televangelists ("I've seeeeheen the light" -- sob, sob), "dry dunks," i.e., poorly adjusted recovering alcoholic/drug users ("before I took the pledge...").

Has considered that Anne and her late husband may have gotten off on her writings: write a chapter, play it out, write another chapter...etc. It happens -- all the time. It's been over ten years since her husband died and isn't around to "appreciate her work," so there's not the same impetus for the dark stuff but more a need to exercise her own erotic fantasies. Why is there spanking after spanking after spanking in the BEAUTY series? Either because that is her own personal fetish or, a strong possibility, she knows there's a HUGE market for titillating, well-written (for porn) spanking books, and/or both. I know what I'm talking about. Have been around the sex industry (not as a participant -- not that I'm against it -- just disinterested) for 25 years. Closeted and non-closeted is one of the most common fetishes: spankees and spankers abound.

Sales for books written during her so-called "dark" period were beginning to decline -- and it was becoming tiresome being in ruffly blouse-black velvet drag all the time -- so she left it behind and is now rapturously happy, having seen the light.

She's a classic, opportunistic, hypocritical, FLIP-FLOPPER.
Logged
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,648



WWW
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2010, 06:05:34 PM »

I caught this interview on the radio this afternoon:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128930526
be forwarned she does discuss a topic not allowed on this forum
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,948



« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2010, 06:21:58 PM »

I listened to the interview, and as to be expected I heard an awful lot about Anne Rice and her feelings, her ideas and her decisions.

It just seems to me that as one moves closer to Christ, they are supposed to move further and further away from this sort of ego stroking.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 06:22:11 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,239



« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2010, 06:44:36 PM »

Funny this topic should come up. I brought back a copy of Anne Rice's Christ the Lord; Out of Egypt fro m my parents' house a couple weeks ago and just started reading it last night.  I read the author's note first in the back of the book which described her being raised as a strict Roman Catholic, only to reject that later in her college years and then marries a devout atheist whom she remained married to for 40 years until he died of cancer or something.  In the author's note, I was amazed at how many times Anne Rice decried the skeptics of Christ and Christianity as being nothing more than a group of incoherent protesters lacking substance which makes me wonder what happened in the time since she wrote that book (I think it was 2006) to make her go back.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
PrincessMommy
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 734


OCA


« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2010, 07:34:54 PM »

Funny this topic should come up. I brought back a copy of Anne Rice's Christ the Lord; Out of Egypt fro m my parents' house a couple weeks ago and just started reading it last night.  I read the author's note first in the back of the book which described her being raised as a strict Roman Catholic, only to reject that later in her college years and then marries a devout atheist whom she remained married to for 40 years until he died of cancer or something.  In the author's note, I was amazed at how many times Anne Rice decried the skeptics of Christ and Christianity as being nothing more than a group of incoherent protesters lacking substance which makes me wonder what happened in the time since she wrote that book (I think it was 2006) to make her go back.

It makes me wonder what she thought about her husband.
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2010, 08:02:45 PM »

Funny this topic should come up. I brought back a copy of Anne Rice's Christ the Lord; Out of Egypt fro m my parents' house a couple weeks ago and just started reading it last night.  I read the author's note first in the back of the book which described her being raised as a strict Roman Catholic, only to reject that later in her college years and then marries a devout atheist whom she remained married to for 40 years until he died of cancer or something.  In the author's note, I was amazed at how many times Anne Rice decried the skeptics of Christ and Christianity as being nothing more than a group of incoherent protesters lacking substance which makes me wonder what happened in the time since she wrote that book (I think it was 2006) to make her go back.
She would probably still agree with what she said about the skeptics of Christ, since she hasn't rejected Christ.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2010, 08:24:06 PM »

I caught this interview on the radio this afternoon:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128930526
be forwarned she does discuss a topic not allowed on this forum
Ah, OK. Now it's really official: she has left the Catholic Church -- no Eucharist, no nuttin'. In the facebook page, she wrote things in such a way that it seemed like she was rejecting the label "Christian", while still possibly attending Mass and what not. Now I see she has rejected the whole communal aspect of being a Christ-follower.

I don't see her reversion and a-reversion as cynically as some. I certainly understand her frustrations with institutional religion and her attractions to faith.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 08:24:57 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2010, 11:57:31 AM »

Rice never mention Christianity being "pro-racist".

Also, it seems that she tried to be a "cafetaria Catholic", but found it that it didn't work for her, so she renounced the whole restaurant. Shocked
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 11:57:51 AM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,688



WWW
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2010, 02:03:47 PM »

I listened to the interview, and as to be expected I heard an awful lot about Anne Rice and her feelings, her ideas and her decisions.

It just seems to me that as one moves closer to Christ, they are supposed to move further and further away from this sort of ego stroking.

Once I had an interview with a Russian journal. The interviewer was very interested in my path to Orthodoxy, what I thought was important, and my impressions about America.

(I talked about how the priest's and parishioners' tolerance of me as protestant and view of me as a friend helped me alot)
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,688



WWW
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2010, 05:11:13 PM »

Rakovsky,

I liked your post. It seems to me that the New Testament advocates some kind of anarcho-communism where the faithful voluntarily follow moralistic family values in a caring spirit.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,486


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2010, 05:48:34 PM »

Quick note.  We're getting close to crossing the line into Politics.  That's fine, but start a thread over there or see this one moved.

Thank you.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2010, 12:23:26 PM »

UPDATE: Anne Rice: "I am in a bit of a state of shock. When I publicly walked away from Christianity in the name of Christ, I had no idea so many people would find this gesture worthy of a response. I am still not entirely certain why the story "has traction." But indeed it does. Here is an editorial from today's LA TIMES."


The LATimes editorial concludes:

Quote
So why not join in the conclusion to Rice's well-reasoned criticisms, particularly if — as I do — you also believe in marriage equality and abortion rights and think the church would be better off if it ordained women and its clergy could marry? Some of us are drawn to the late Pope John Paul II's view that the only way to understand the institutional church is as "a sign of contradiction." That's a term in Catholic theology for a person or situation in which both goodness and its extreme opposition are manifest. Had humanity not been imperfect, there would have been no use for a young Galilean rabbi's radically transformative teaching. If that teaching's mere existence had perfected humanity, its adherents never would have required an institutional church, whose human composition makes it imperfect.

Some of our most profound challenges are resolved in the acceptance of contradiction — or so it seems to me.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 12:26:51 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2010, 12:37:14 PM »

Here's an interview where Rice expands upon her brief comments on facebook. Excerpt:


Maryann:....Are you saying you don’t want to be associated with “any” Christians—or just the part of the church with which you are fed up?

Anne:  I'm saying that I no longer represent any organized religion.  I'm not Catholic. I'm not Christian.  I'm saying this because I have to be an outsider for Christ.  There is a long story to this decision.  Let me say briefly  that I was disappointing my fellow Catholics and Christians.  Some were insisting I was "no Christian."  Some were telling me in so many words to leave the Roman Catholic Church.  But my decision was not a response to any one group.  Since becoming a Christian writer, I have been in communion with many many believers from all over the world, from many churches, and from many walks of life.  I've been interviewed on their radio and television shows.  I've met them in many different circumstances.  I had many wonderful experiences, received beautiful letters, and my Christian books received substantive and thoughtful reviews.  But there was always argument, dispute, questions as to what I "really" believed, lectures from here and there on "the real truth," etc.  Then there was the clergy scandal in the Roman Catholic Church.  Then so many political issues.  When I came out in support of Hillary Clinton for President, I received some of the most hate filled mail I'd ever read.  I have had to walk away from all this to protect my dedication to Christ.
....
Maryann:  Do you reject “organized” religion, or just organized religion which conflicts with Jesus’ message of grace and forgiveness? 

Anne:  There is no consensus anywhere in the Body of Christ as to what Jesus' message of grace and forgiveness really is.  Catholics don't agree with Baptists.  Anglicans are criticized by Catholics.  Evangelicals tell me Catholics are going to Hell.  Many Christians believe that the vast majority of those created by God will burn in Hell for All Eternity.  Many Christians not only believe the world will end soon, but are looking forward to it.  I MUST WALK AWAY FROM IT ALL.  IN JESUS' NAME.  I love the world the Lord has created; I love the mountains, the rivers, the valleys, the skies.  I love the forests, the fields, the flowers.  I love the mysteries of evolution and dna and the big bang.  I want to know the majesties of the Lord's Creation.  I cannot close my eyes to all this.  I cannot turn away from science and scientific exploration.  I cannot condemn the mystic experience of people who have Near Death Experiences as "demonic" simply because I don't know what they are.  I can't believe the world was created in six days.  I do not take Genesis or Revelation literally.  I AM OUT.  I am alone.  I am an outsider for Christ.  I will study my Bible, and pray to God in private and alone.   I have no other choice.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 12:40:55 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2010, 12:48:37 PM »

It sounds like she wants Christ on her own terms, not on His terms, which means that she does not want the real Christ, but her own comfortable construction of Him, a sort of fluffy Christ who makes no demands on us, does not give commandments, and does punish sin.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2010, 11:25:36 PM »

Joy Behar interviewing Anne Rice, tonight.

She does say that she is anti-abortion, that abortion is the killing of a human being.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,358


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2010, 12:21:16 AM »

Joy Behar interviewing Anne Rice, tonight.

She does say that she is anti-abortion, that abortion is the killing of a human being.
That's good news. Hopefully she will come home.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
tuesdayschild
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 971



« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2010, 12:42:11 PM »

-How often are there people who leave any sort of church due to the behaviors of others?

Do you mean:
How often are there people who announce a departure due to the behaviors of others?
How often are there people who leave any sort of church due to the policies of leaders?
How often are there people who leave any sort of church due to the behaviors of others directed specifically toward the one leaving?

I have known people who have stayed in a church that had policies they disagreed with because they enjoyed the people in the local church.  I have known people who have rationalized their departure as a disagreement over doctrine when it was really over hurt feelings.  There seem to be few like Anne Rice who issue what amounts to a press release of their departure.  Not many have the notoriety she does.  I suspect most simply fall away quietly.
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2010, 07:10:46 AM »

The political discussions, which continued even after Schultz's warning, have been split and moved into the following thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29209.0.html

Do not post political messages in the public forum.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2010, 11:21:20 AM »

Anne Rice's new LA Times interview. Excerpts:


Rice spoke to The Times by phone this week from her home in Rancho Mirage.

....
Q) Two days before you announced on your Facebook page that you were quitting Christianity, you praised the Lutheran Church....So why not become a Lutheran, or a member of some other church that shares your views?

A) I feel much more morally comfortable walking away from organized religion. I respect that there are all kinds of denominations and all kinds of churches, but it's the entire controversy, the entire conversation that I need to walk away from right now.
....
Q) You've written before about your love of churches, even during the time you were an atheist. Do you see yourself going back in a church?

A) Oh yeah, I would certainly go to a church to pray in private as long as nobody there is offended by my presence. You know, when you're brought up the way I was brought up in the Catholic Church, you really remain culturally a Catholic all your life. Your whole approach to art, your whole approach to music, to architecture, to literature, all of this has been shaped by Catholic thinking and the Catholic tradition. So that's not something that you can put aside. I mean, my novels were Catholic novels when I was calling myself an atheist.
....
Q) Was there any single moment that led you to say, "I'm done?"

A) There was. There was a last straw. But it's very important to emphasize that it was the sum total of a lot of things. There were some last straws that had to do with papal pronouncements, the pope going to Africa and declaring that condoms were not a good idea and would not help in the AIDS epidemic....That was a moment of, "What in the world am I doing connected to this religion?" But the real last straw, the very last straw, was the bishop of Phoenix, Ariz., Thomas Olmsted, coming out and publicly condemning a nun named Sister Margaret McBride for authorizing a life-saving abortion for a dying mother in a Phoenix hospital. What he said in essence was that she had excommunicated herself by authorizing the abortion, and I could write a book on why I think that was a ruthless and immoral decision.

But you know, again, when we talk about the last straw, we don't want to betray the whole spectrum of things that people have chosen to do in the name of organized religion in our time. There are deep issues with religions and the way they treat the very serious moral problems that people face today with reproductive questions, reproductive rights, questions of family planning, questions of marriage and divorce, questions of how you live a meaningful life in a world where almost every decision you make has some moral implication for somebody else. These are big issues. And the question of how much the decisions of people in organized religion are related to any deep-rooted theology of Jesus Christ, well, that's a real question. You understand my problem?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 11:24:01 AM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2010, 05:21:44 PM »

A priest replies to Anne Rice Shocked:


"However, what she is proposing is, quite simply, impossible. With complete coherence, Ms. Rice could withdraw from the Gandhi Society, even while maintaining her deep admiration for Gandhi, or she could resign from the Better Business Bureau, even while retaining a commitment to the ideals of that organization. But she can’t leave the church and still cling to Christ, precisely because the church is not a club or voluntary society, but rather Jesus’ own mystical body. When the risen Jesus addressed Saul, who was on his way to persecute the Christian community in Damascus, the Lord said, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” In the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew’s Gospel, we find Jesus’ great parable of the separation of the saved and the condemned on the last day. To the blessed, Jesus says, “whatsoever you did to the least of my people, you did it to me,” and to the damned he says, “whatsoever you neglected to do to the least of my people, you neglected to do it to me.” The followers of Jesus are related to their Lord as the members of a body are related to the head, for Christ and his church form together, not a society, but a living organism. To say, therefore, that one loves Christ but has given up on his church is precisely equivalent to saying “I love you, but I just can’t be around your body!”

To make this principle more concrete, consider the fact that Anne Rice came to know Christ through the densely-textured world of her New Orleans Catholicism: its art, music, liturgy, stories, and above all, its powerful spiritual personalities. More to it, she experienced the renewal of her faith through the mediation of the liturgy broadcast on EWTN. The point is that the church, with all of its flaws, remains, down through the ages, the vehicle which bears Jesus Christ to the world, just as our bodies, with all of their imperfections, remain the means by which our identities and personalities come to expression. You just can’t discover Christ or stay with him in abstraction from his body. I know that Church people, even of the highest rank, do and say lots of stupid things. I fully realize how deeply scandalous the recent behavior of some priests and bishops has been to millions of Catholics, and I completely acknowledge that certain of the church’s attitudes, behaviors, and statements over the centuries have been deeply harmful. Heck, John Paul II dedicated the last several years of his pontificate to apologizing for the ways that churchmen have caused harm, sometimes greviously, over the past two millennia. But yet, as St. Paul said, “we hold a treasure” in these fragile vessels, and the treasure is Jesus himself.

I’m convinced that it is Anne Rice’s love for Christ that has pushed her to make this move away from the church, but I fear that she is drifting toward the love of an abstract Jesus. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This means that God entered into our grubby, imperfect world and made it his tabernacle. He continues to do so, precisely through the flawed, compromised, sometimes exasperating body of the church, and therefore the church is where the real Christ is found. Come back, Anne, we need you!"
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 05:22:08 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2010, 07:11:14 PM »

It seems to me that the New Testament advocates some kind of anarcho-communism where the faithful voluntarily follow moralistic family values in a caring spirit.

Not anarcho. It was very much a hierarchical system. And I don't know if "communism" would exactly fit, but certainly communitarianism would.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2010, 07:12:34 PM »

and does punish sin.

I don't think the Lord Christ is all that interested in punishment.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2010, 07:13:04 PM »

She does say that she is anti-abortion, that abortion is the killing of a human being.

She's probably still pro-choice, though.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2010, 07:14:17 PM »

Regarding Anne Rice's anti-conversion:


Quote
....there is a cautionary tale here, one with some important lessons to mull over:

• The cult of celebrity has no place in the Catholic Church. I'm not talking about proper recognition, respect, admiration, praise, or gratitude shown to those who deserve it. I'm talking about putting someone on a pedestal for wrong or dubious reasons, and showing an undue eagerness in lauding them as "Catholic" because they are a famous (take your pick) athlete, singer, writer, actor, etc. A very wise (and no-nonsense) priest told me, many years ago, to never, ever fall into the trap of being a celebrity convert, for to do so would destroy my soul. The temptation is real. It should be smacked down, trampled upon, and dismembered at every opportunity.

• Saying "I want to be Catholic" should include saying, "I believe what the Catholic Church teaches." This should be a no-brainer, I suppose, but everyone involved would be better served if the cards were laid on the table right up front. Saying that someone is "sincere" or "has a good heart" only goes so far. There is a parallel with marriage preparation. Saying, "I really love her/him!" shouldn't be an automatic stamp for a Catholic wedding. This isn't a matter of questioning motives, but of simply asking people if they, in fact, understand their own motives and acknowledge both the rights and duties that come with being Catholic. A simple baseline, it seems to me, is asking folks to affirm the teachings found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

• A lack of humility and teachability should be a red flag. When a potential convert/revert will not consider and engage with Church teaching regarding faith and morals, it should be an opportunity to engage in serious discussion, not an opportunity to turn the other way and act as if everything will magically turn out fine. The latter response will often lead to further disillusionment on the part of the convert/revert (who may think the lack of questioning is a tacit form of endorsement), and it can result in scandal for the faithful. And yet, in a culture that is obsessed with being "honest" about feelings and emotions, there is all too often a failure to be honest about what someone thinks and believes.

• Not everyone can be a theologian, but everyone should know some theology. Fr. Barron points out that Rice, who is a talented and intelligent woman, has huge holes in her understanding of theology and doctrine. And the issue at hand—the relationship between Jesus Christ and the Church—is hardly a matter of esoteric interest; it is an essential, core matter. It wasn't for nothing that one of the key documents of the Second Vatican Council was about the nature and mission of the Church.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 07:15:04 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2010, 03:02:55 PM »

Christianity Today interview with Anne Rice. Excerpt:


Are there any other religious authors you read?

I read theology and biblical scholarship all the time. I love the biblical scholarship of D.A. Carson. I very much love Craig S. Keener. His books on Matthew and John are right here on my desk all the time. I go to Craig Keener for answers because his commentary on Scripture is so thorough. I still read N.T. Wright. I love the Catholic theologian Karl Rahner. I love his writing on Jesus Christ. It's very beautiful to me, and I study a little bit of it every day. Of course, I love Tolstoy and Dostoevsky.

You mentioned D.A. Carson, Craig Keener, and N.T. Wright. They are fairly conservative Protestants.

Sometimes the most conservative people are the most biblically and scholastically sound. They have studied Scripture and have studied skeptical scholarship. They make brilliant arguments for the way something in the Bible reads and how it's been interpreted. I don't go to them necessarily to know more about their personal beliefs. It's the brilliance they bring to bear on the text that appeals to me. Of all the people I've read over the years, it's their work that I keep on my desk. They're all non-Catholics, but they're believers, they document their books well, they write well, they're scrupulously honest as scholars, and they don't have a bias. Many of the skeptical non-believer biblical scholars have a terrible bias. To them, Jesus didn't rise from the dead, so there's no point in discussing it. I want someone to approach the text and tell me what it says, how the language worked.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Tikhon.of.Colorado
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,363



« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2010, 09:36:50 PM »

celebreties who make this choice just make the term "spiritual bot not religous" more popular among the masses.  frankly, I'm not suprised.  I've read a few of her books, and by their themes, got some impression that she was some sort of new-age atheist.
Logged

"It is true that I am not always faithful, but I never lose courage, I leave myself in the Arms of Our Lord." - St. Thérèse of Lisieux
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2010, 11:22:48 PM »

and does punish sin.

I don't think the Lord Christ is all that interested in punishment.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2010, 11:52:12 PM »

and does punish sin.

I don't think the Lord Christ is all that interested in punishment.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."

I didn't say that Christ is not interested in judgment and correction.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2011, 11:22:40 PM »

I was looking at NT Wright's "Simply Christian" book, and surprisingly found a quote from Anne Rice on praising the book. I couldn't believe she was a Christian, and then I found this recent article here:

Quote
“I think the main reason Christians and Catholics are going through this crisis with gay culture is they cannot face the reality that they are seeing before their eyes. The reality is that good, wholesome, productive gay people exist in all walks of life in our country and in other countries,” Rice explained. “They are at war with information.”

“They cannot bear the thought that two good gay people could have two adoptive children and get up before an altar or a judge and exchange vows and live a good family life.”

“These Christians now have to face the fact that this information is just flooding in. Gay people are people. Gay people are good people. Gay people are wholesome people.”

“It calls into question everything they believe about sin and salvation. That the narrow way is to Jesus Christ and that anybody who doesn't take it and who is a sinner is going to hell.”

“They have to face the fact that all these good people are not living as degenerate sinners… They want gays to be sinners. They want you to be a sinner and they want you to behave like a sinner and they want you to fail like one. And it's driving them crazy that you're not doing that."
http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=7486&MediaType=1&Category=22

So what would Anne Rice's church be like if she had one?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 11:23:05 PM by Aposphet » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
tuesdayschild
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 971



« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2011, 11:48:30 PM »

I was looking at NT Wright's "Simply Christian" book, and surprisingly found a quote from Anne Rice on praising the book. I couldn't believe she was a Christian, and then I found this recent article here:

Quote
“I think the main reason Christians and Catholics are going through this crisis with gay culture is they cannot face the reality that they are seeing before their eyes. The reality is that good, wholesome, productive gay people exist in all walks of life in our country and in other countries,” Rice explained. “They are at war with information.”

“They cannot bear the thought that two good gay people could have two adoptive children and get up before an altar or a judge and exchange vows and live a good family life.”

“These Christians now have to face the fact that this information is just flooding in. Gay people are people. Gay people are good people. Gay people are wholesome people.”

“It calls into question everything they believe about sin and salvation. That the narrow way is to Jesus Christ and that anybody who doesn't take it and who is a sinner is going to hell.”

“They have to face the fact that all these good people are not living as degenerate sinners… They want gays to be sinners. They want you to be a sinner and they want you to behave like a sinner and they want you to fail like one. And it's driving them crazy that you're not doing that."
http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=7486&MediaType=1&Category=22

So what would Anne Rice's church be like if she had one?

Gothic.
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2011, 11:52:04 PM »

St. Patrick's Cathed...err wait
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Saint Iaint
This Poster Has Ignored Multiple Requests to Behave Better
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Once Delivered
Posts: 625


The Truth Shall Be Reviled


WWW
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2011, 08:54:00 AM »

and does punish sin.

I don't think the Lord Christ is all that interested in punishment.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."

I didn't say that Christ is not interested in judgment and correction.

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'

Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
- Matthew 25-41-46

"But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me."
- Luke 19:27


†IC XC†
†NI KA†
Logged

Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2011, 05:29:49 AM »

and does punish sin.

I don't think the Lord Christ is all that interested in punishment.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."

I didn't say that Christ is not interested in judgment and correction.

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'

Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
- Matthew 25-41-46

"But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me."
- Luke 19:27


†IC XC†
†NI KA†


Who is to say that they are not punishing themselves?
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.229 seconds with 99 queries.