OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 21, 2014, 10:14:35 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Baby drowns during baptism  (Read 6796 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2010, 10:45:00 PM »

There is another case of an infant dying by drowning 9 ours after baptism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyBEfuSHu7M&feature=related
Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2010, 08:50:37 AM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,494


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2010, 10:43:22 AM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"

It was, for some reason, in the private discussion area.  It was moved w/o fanfare to its present location sometime yesterday. Smiley
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 10:43:47 AM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,146


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2010, 10:48:19 AM »

There is another case of an infant dying by drowning 9 ours after baptism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyBEfuSHu7M&feature=related

What was the cause of death?  I know you said "drowning," but was the baptism the only exposure to water in that 9 hours?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 10:48:38 AM by Fr. George » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2010, 11:43:28 AM »

A case of secondary drowning, the one Second Chance talks about in his post, apparently.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,146


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2010, 11:48:56 AM »

^ Lord, have mercy.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 7,006



« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2010, 02:31:42 PM »

Fair enough, but the video clearly shows that the child was kicking and therefore alive when pulled out of the font.

Regardless, this is a tragedy. Sad

It could have been a case of secondary drowning: "Water, if inhaled into the lungs, may easily damage the inside surface which takes in air. Otherwise known as the alveoli- the tiny sacs surrounded by capillaries- responsible for the gas exchange required for cellular respiration. The unnatural substance (being water) in the lungs will cause an irritation inside the lungs, triggering the lungs to attempt to purge the substance much like a sliver would fester-fluid gathers in/on the lungs creating what is known as pulmonary edema; reducing the ability to exchange air. Because of this, a asphyxiation is a very real possibility. Serious complications or death may occur up to 72 hours after a near drowning incident because of the time the body takes to sense the problem and attempt its own fix. Essentially, the person ends up drowning in their own bodily fluid. This is also known as secondary drowning, or "drowning after drowning" Inhaling certain poisonous vapors or gases, or vomit will have a similar effect."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning#Secondary_drowning

So maybe an unusual chemical reaction to water in lungs?

Um...I think that it is the usual reaction to water in the lungs.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,612



« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2010, 08:58:39 PM »

Lord have mercy. 
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2010, 09:03:48 PM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"

That's because it was just moved.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 09:04:22 PM by deusveritasest » Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,159


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2010, 09:14:16 PM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"

That's because it was just moved.
It might help if you would read the whole thread subsequent to the post you want to quote to see if the post has already drawn other replies.  If you had done this, you would have noted that a moderator already answered Nigula's statement. Wink
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2010, 09:16:56 PM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"

That's because it was just moved.
It might help if you would read the whole thread subsequent to the post you want to quote to see if the post has already drawn other replies.  If you had done this, you would have noted that a moderator already answered Nigula's statement. Wink

That sounds like good advice Peter. I will try to do that in the future.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2010, 01:54:05 AM »

If secondary drowning is so easy, I would worry about traditional Russian baptism. The safeguard is supposed to be covering the mouth and nose. It seems that the priest would have to hold the mouth shut and also pinch the nose closed. Just putting your hand on top of the mouth or nose might not be enough because apparently there are these unusual situations.

My first reaction with this story is that there's secret abuse because of the bruises and blood. But now I am thinking otherwise, and think maybe I would want Greek baptism. It is troublesome that this has apparently happened more than once and that inhaling water is a deadly possibility.
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,638


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2010, 04:32:22 AM »

"Greek baptism"? I've seen dozens of Greek baptisms, as well as Russian ones, over several decades, and in every single case, the babies were completely immersed three times. Never seen "immerse the body of the bub and then pour water over his head". For one thing, in most, if not all cases, two people would be needed to do the honours: one to steady the child and prevent him from slipping under, and the other to pour water over his head.

The trick is to dunk quickly, wait a few seconds after the bub is lifted out to let it breathe, then dunk again, and so on. Do it properly, and there's nothing to worry about.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:33:09 AM by LBK » Logged
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2010, 10:22:54 AM »

I did attend an Old Calendar Serbian baptism once and if I remember correctly, the priest immersed only the bottom half of the baby in the water and he then poured some water over the head.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,636



« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2010, 10:57:06 AM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
Logged
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2010, 11:25:33 AM »

"Greek baptism"? I've seen dozens of Greek baptisms, as well as Russian ones, over several decades, and in every single case, the babies were completely immersed three times. Never seen "immerse the body of the bub and then pour water over his head".

Most of the Greek baptisms I've been to do exactly as you say. Dunk the baby and they are in and out rather fast...and they always remain vertical (so water can't go up their nose or anything like that) But I have seen the "dunk down to the shoulders, then pour water over their head" thing a couple times. In those cases the priest would quickly use his other hand to cup some water and then pour it over the babies head. Again all pretty smooth and fast. I've never actually seen anyone ignorant enough to baptize a baby upside down though. (if that's what happened as I didn't actually have the nerve to watch the video, sorry just didn't have it in me knowing the outcome)  If a priest actually did that, IMO he should be punished because dunking a baby upside down into a metal font full of water has got to be . . . . well trying to keep things civil here, I'll just say it is a level of ignorance that I cannot even imagine.

Quote
The trick is to dunk quickly, wait a few seconds after the bub is lifted out to let it breathe, then dunk again, and so on. Do it properly, and there's nothing to worry about.

Exactly. If done right it's over before anyone knows it's happening. Usually priests who have children of their own seem to be much better at it than monastic clergy. Again that's just been my experience where the monastic clergy tend to be a little rough with the children at times, while clergy with families (or who come from families with siblings) just tend to be more gentle. But that's probably true of anyone, priest or not.

Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2010, 03:49:23 PM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required?
Logged
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,658



WWW
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2010, 03:57:01 PM »

I can't speak for all traditions but I have been taught to baptise by a full, triple immersion.

But if the child is immersed to the shoulders and then water sufficient to cover the baby's head is poured over then this is the same as an immersion. It is entirely different to having a small amount of water poured on the forehead or on the head.

Father Peter
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2010, 04:01:13 PM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required?

If Orthodox priests are baptising without triple immersion, they are not doing as required.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2010, 04:08:03 PM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required?

If Orthodox priests are baptising without triple immersion, they are not doing as required.
If someone were baptised only by pouring, would the person then have to be rebaptised in order for the Baptism to be recognised?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:23:28 PM by stanley123 » Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,545


« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2010, 04:11:10 PM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required?

If Orthodox priests are baptising without triple immersion, they are not doing as required.
If someone were baptised only by puring, would the person then have to be rebaptised in order for the Baptism to be recognised?

No, but some insist. Please, go back to the topic.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:11:45 PM by mike » Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,545


« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2011, 04:00:32 PM »

He was sentenced to prison:
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2011/11/priest-gets-prison-time-for-baptism.html
Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,511


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2011, 04:22:24 PM »

Look we can formulate all kinds of theories on this one.  The fact is none of us were there.  We don't know what caused bruising or bleeding...
The issue at hand is that the baby was alive and now is reposed and the cause of its death was with the process of baptism.  I don't think the priest started baptizing a baby bleeding from the mouth unless it was an emergency or the baby was already deathly sick.  In that case the immersion would have been weird and emergency baptism performed.

I've seen infants choke heavily during baptism. 

Our OCA priest always cupped his hand over the babies nose & mouth before a dunk that was just a quick DUNK then up immediately.
 
This is very tragic and sad.

However, if there is a bright side to it, at least this baby's baptism happened and is without doubt in the kingdom with God for eternity since it was purified through baptism.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
LakaYaRabb
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 209



WWW
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2014, 07:50:51 PM »

 Huh

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/11/the-story-behind-infant-that-died.html
Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 7,003


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2014, 08:10:59 PM »

No matter how flat you make a pancake, there's ALWAYS two sides.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Tags: baptism 
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.103 seconds with 53 queries.