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Nigula Qian Zishi
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2010, 08:50:37 AM » |
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How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?
It is in "Free for All" |
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Schultz
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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2010, 10:43:22 AM » |
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How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?
It is in "Free for All"  |
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 10:43:47 AM by Schultz »
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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
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Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
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May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
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« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2010, 10:48:19 AM » |
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What was the cause of death? I know you said "drowning," but was the baptism the only exposure to water in that 9 hours? |
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 10:48:38 AM by Fr. George »
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"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
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Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
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augustin717
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« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2010, 11:43:28 AM » |
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A case of secondary drowning, the one Second Chance talks about in his post, apparently.
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Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
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May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2010, 11:48:56 AM » |
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^ Lord, have mercy.
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"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
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Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2010, 02:31:42 PM » |
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Fair enough, but the video clearly shows that the child was kicking and therefore alive when pulled out of the font. Regardless, this is a tragedy.  It could have been a case of secondary drowning: "Water, if inhaled into the lungs, may easily damage the inside surface which takes in air. Otherwise known as the alveoli- the tiny sacs surrounded by capillaries- responsible for the gas exchange required for cellular respiration. The unnatural substance (being water) in the lungs will cause an irritation inside the lungs, triggering the lungs to attempt to purge the substance much like a sliver would fester-fluid gathers in/on the lungs creating what is known as pulmonary edema; reducing the ability to exchange air. Because of this, a asphyxiation is a very real possibility. Serious complications or death may occur up to 72 hours after a near drowning incident because of the time the body takes to sense the problem and attempt its own fix. Essentially, the person ends up drowning in their own bodily fluid. This is also known as secondary drowning, or "drowning after drowning" Inhaling certain poisonous vapors or gases, or vomit will have a similar effect." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning#Secondary_drowningSo maybe an unusual chemical reaction to water in lungs? Um...I think that it is the usual reaction to water in the lungs. |
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Father H
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« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2010, 08:58:39 PM » |
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Lord have mercy.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2010, 09:03:48 PM » |
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How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?
It is in "Free for All" That's because it was just moved. |
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 09:04:22 PM by deusveritasest »
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I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com |
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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EXTERMINATE!
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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2010, 09:14:16 PM » |
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How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?
It is in "Free for All" That's because it was just moved. It might help if you would read the whole thread subsequent to the post you want to quote to see if the post has already drawn other replies. If you had done this, you would have noted that a moderator already answered Nigula's statement.  |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2010, 09:16:56 PM » |
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How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?
It is in "Free for All" That's because it was just moved. It might help if you would read the whole thread subsequent to the post you want to quote to see if the post has already drawn other replies. If you had done this, you would have noted that a moderator already answered Nigula's statement. That sounds like good advice Peter. I will try to do that in the future. |
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I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com |
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rakovsky
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« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2010, 01:54:05 AM » |
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If secondary drowning is so easy, I would worry about traditional Russian baptism. The safeguard is supposed to be covering the mouth and nose. It seems that the priest would have to hold the mouth shut and also pinch the nose closed. Just putting your hand on top of the mouth or nose might not be enough because apparently there are these unusual situations.
My first reaction with this story is that there's secret abuse because of the bruises and blood. But now I am thinking otherwise, and think maybe I would want Greek baptism. It is troublesome that this has apparently happened more than once and that inhaling water is a deadly possibility.
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LBK
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« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2010, 04:32:22 AM » |
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"Greek baptism"? I've seen dozens of Greek baptisms, as well as Russian ones, over several decades, and in every single case, the babies were completely immersed three times. Never seen "immerse the body of the bub and then pour water over his head". For one thing, in most, if not all cases, two people would be needed to do the honours: one to steady the child and prevent him from slipping under, and the other to pour water over his head.
The trick is to dunk quickly, wait a few seconds after the bub is lifted out to let it breathe, then dunk again, and so on. Do it properly, and there's nothing to worry about.
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« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:33:09 AM by LBK »
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Rosehip
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« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2010, 10:22:54 AM » |
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I did attend an Old Calendar Serbian baptism once and if I remember correctly, the priest immersed only the bottom half of the baby in the water and he then poured some water over the head.
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+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010. May her memory be eternal! +
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augustin717
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« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2010, 10:57:06 AM » |
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Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
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NorthernPines
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« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2010, 11:25:33 AM » |
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"Greek baptism"? I've seen dozens of Greek baptisms, as well as Russian ones, over several decades, and in every single case, the babies were completely immersed three times. Never seen "immerse the body of the bub and then pour water over his head". Most of the Greek baptisms I've been to do exactly as you say. Dunk the baby and they are in and out rather fast...and they always remain vertical (so water can't go up their nose or anything like that) But I have seen the "dunk down to the shoulders, then pour water over their head" thing a couple times. In those cases the priest would quickly use his other hand to cup some water and then pour it over the babies head. Again all pretty smooth and fast. I've never actually seen anyone ignorant enough to baptize a baby upside down though. (if that's what happened as I didn't actually have the nerve to watch the video, sorry just didn't have it in me knowing the outcome) If a priest actually did that, IMO he should be punished because dunking a baby upside down into a metal font full of water has got to be . . . . well trying to keep things civil here, I'll just say it is a level of ignorance that I cannot even imagine. The trick is to dunk quickly, wait a few seconds after the bub is lifted out to let it breathe, then dunk again, and so on. Do it properly, and there's nothing to worry about.
Exactly. If done right it's over before anyone knows it's happening. Usually priests who have children of their own seem to be much better at it than monastic clergy. Again that's just been my experience where the monastic clergy tend to be a little rough with the children at times, while clergy with families (or who come from families with siblings) just tend to be more gentle. But that's probably true of anyone, priest or not. |
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stanley123
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« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2010, 03:49:23 PM » |
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Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required? |
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Father Peter
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« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2010, 03:57:01 PM » |
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I can't speak for all traditions but I have been taught to baptise by a full, triple immersion.
But if the child is immersed to the shoulders and then water sufficient to cover the baby's head is poured over then this is the same as an immersion. It is entirely different to having a small amount of water poured on the forehead or on the head.
Father Peter
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2010, 04:01:13 PM » |
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Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required? If Orthodox priests are baptising without triple immersion, they are not doing as required. |
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Not to be flippantly dismissive, but something of such a personal nature as this is best addressed by your priest, not by anonymous yahoos on an Internet discussion forum.
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stanley123
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« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2010, 04:08:03 PM » |
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Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required? If Orthodox priests are baptising without triple immersion, they are not doing as required. If someone were baptised only by pouring, would the person then have to be rebaptised in order for the Baptism to be recognised? |
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« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:23:28 PM by stanley123 »
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Michał Kalina
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OC.net's trickster
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« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2010, 04:11:10 PM » |
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Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required? If Orthodox priests are baptising without triple immersion, they are not doing as required. If someone were baptised only by puring, would the person then have to be rebaptised in order for the Baptism to be recognised? No, but some insist. Please, go back to the topic. |
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« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:11:45 PM by mike »
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.  Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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Michał Kalina
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« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2011, 04:00:32 PM » |
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole. Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2011, 04:22:24 PM » |
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Look we can formulate all kinds of theories on this one. The fact is none of us were there. We don't know what caused bruising or bleeding...
The issue at hand is that the baby was alive and now is reposed and the cause of its death was with the process of baptism. I don't think the priest started baptizing a baby bleeding from the mouth unless it was an emergency or the baby was already deathly sick. In that case the immersion would have been weird and emergency baptism performed.
I've seen infants choke heavily during baptism.
Our OCA priest always cupped his hand over the babies nose & mouth before a dunk that was just a quick DUNK then up immediately.
This is very tragic and sad.
However, if there is a bright side to it, at least this baby's baptism happened and is without doubt in the kingdom with God for eternity since it was purified through baptism.
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