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Author Topic: Baby drowns during baptism  (Read 6789 times) Average Rating: 0
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Quinault
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« on: July 29, 2010, 06:18:17 PM »

I thought this article could become polemical so I just cut to the chase and brought it here.
http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/29-07-2010/114414-baby_baptism-0

Quote
A shocking incident occurred in the village of Mihaileny of Rishcansky district of Moldova with a boy named Laurentiu, who was born six weeks ago in the family of 24-year-old Ludmila and Dmitry Gaydeu.

Did this occur at an Orthodox church?
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2010, 06:39:21 PM »

I saw that article too. A shocking incident. I would think the tragedy occured in an Orthodox Church unfortunately-Moldova is Orthodox and only the Orthodox immerse the infants. The RC infant baptisms I've observed have only sprinkled a bit of water on the top of the baby's head. I don't know of any other church in Moldova which would baptise infants.
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2010, 07:50:09 PM »

Definitely looks that way.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5iThnjWYX_rPdRA_xFCS53J-yDZWA
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2010, 08:30:19 PM »

The RC infant baptisms I've observed have only sprinkled a bit of water on the top of the baby's head.
RC has pouring also. BTW, wouldn't pouring of water on the head of the child be somewhat safer? And in those cold Russian winters, why wouldn't pouring be advisable over immersing a shivering child in cold waters?
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2010, 09:40:20 PM »

I saw that article too. A shocking incident. I would think the tragedy occured in an Orthodox Church unfortunately-Moldova is Orthodox and only the Orthodox immerse the infants. The RC infant baptisms I've observed have only sprinkled a bit of water on the top of the baby's head. I don't know of any other church in Moldova which would baptise infants.

I saw this yesterday and felt faint when reading it as the empathy kicked in, and the reality of it all took root in my mind.

However hideous this is for the priest and the family, we must remember that there are hundreds, thousands of Orthodox infants baptized every year and they don't drown.

For what it's worth, even when infants are immersed in Catholic parish churches that have build in immersion pools the body of the baby is immersed and the head is laved with water.

Many Catholic baptisms are done by laving the head with water, pouring.  I've never seen a sprinkle ritual.

M.
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 09:44:13 PM »

For what it's worth, even when infants are immersed in Catholic parish churches that have build in immersion pools the body of the baby is immersed and the head is laved with water.

It's been a while since I have been to a baptism, but I'm pretty sure that is how babies are baptized in the Armenian Church.  I thinks Copts completely immerse the baby, though.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong. 

I would imagine that in Churches were the baby is completely immersed, the priest must go through some training on how to immerse the baby while closing off the nose and mouth, or something, to prevent drowning.  Perhaps some of our priests here can comment on this.

Very sad story.
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2010, 09:44:59 PM »

BTW, wouldn't pouring of water on the head of the child be somewhat safer? And in those cold Russian winters, why wouldn't pouring be advisable over immersing a shivering child in cold waters?

Was baby baptising by pour or sprinkle done in 19th century Russia? Or 15th century? Or tenth? IS OUTRAGE!!

But, seriously, this notion of "immersion baptism is dangerous or risky, so let's change it" is akin to squeamishness about accepting Holy Communion from a common chalice and spoon. It does sound like the technique used by the Moldovan priest in question was not the usual one for a very young baby. It is standard practice to hold very little bubs (younger than three months) with one hand under the bottom, and the other hand covering the face. The immersions are very quick - a photographer needs to move fast to capture the moment!

As for "immersing a shivering child in cold waters", warm water is used in the vast majority of cases. Even in instances where only cold water was available, small babies can easily cope with a triple immersion, as their diving reflex is still working well. Physiologically, their little bodies can handle a brief cold dunking much better than an older child or adult.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 09:51:00 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 10:01:43 PM »

For what it's worth, even when infants are immersed in Catholic parish churches that have build in immersion pools the body of the baby is immersed and the head is laved with water.

It's been a while since I have been to a baptism, but I'm pretty sure that is how babies are baptized in the Armenian Church. 

Video of Armenian baptism, chrismation, first Communion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2VvDVrC-0A

The baby goes into the water a little after four minutes.

I have a completely off topic question:  At about 8 minutes into the video the baby is shown after it's all over, and she has mittens on.  I've been to a number of baptisms before and I've never seen this before.  Does anyone know why the mittens would be there?
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2010, 10:02:44 PM »

Wow?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh??  Shocked
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 10:11:43 PM »

My apologies to the RCs: the water was indeed (gently) poured over the baby's head, not sprinkled! Embarrassed
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2010, 10:27:52 PM »

Quote
Film shot by relatives shows the baby moving after being taken out of the font, but then suffering difficulty breathing as he is dressed. Twenty minutes later, he started bleeding from his nose and mouth and died.

Odd? Difficulty breating is not the same as NOT breathing. And bleeding from mouth does not sound normal with drowning. This sounds very strange.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2010, 10:46:19 PM »

Quote
Film shot by relatives shows the baby moving after being taken out of the font, but then suffering difficulty breathing as he is dressed. Twenty minutes later, he started bleeding from his nose and mouth and died.

Odd? Difficulty breating is not the same as NOT breathing. And bleeding from mouth does not sound normal with drowning. This sounds very strange.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The other article also says:
Quote
"We went along with the father," continues Dmitry Gaydeu. "The physician-pathologist Sergei Railean said that my son has suffered mechanical asphyxia by drowning, there was bruising and bleeding in the soft tissues of his neck. The doctor said the baby was healthy."
So it seems like a lot is going on.
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2010, 11:16:02 PM »

Quote
Film shot by relatives shows the baby moving after being taken out of the font, but then suffering difficulty breathing as he is dressed. Twenty minutes later, he started bleeding from his nose and mouth and died.

Odd? Difficulty breating is not the same as NOT breathing. And bleeding from mouth does not sound normal with drowning. This sounds very strange.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The other article also says:
Quote
"We went along with the father," continues Dmitry Gaydeu. "The physician-pathologist Sergei Railean said that my son has suffered mechanical asphyxia by drowning, there was bruising and bleeding in the soft tissues of his neck. The doctor said the baby was healthy."
So it seems like a lot is going on.

Yes, this is weird. Bruising on the neck?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh

So they gave the priest a physically abused baby to baptize before the baby died? Or the priest did a really bad job and knocked the kid's head? What is the explanation for this? This is a confusing case. I mean, you would think that over millions of years babies would be ok with going under water for short times, whether or not someone closed their mouth. And the news says it's on film?
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2010, 11:43:15 PM »

Yeah, as this is the first recorded instance of anyone drowing in a baptism for two thousand years, I'm suspicious.
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2010, 12:40:48 AM »

Our priest sort of scoops the baby thru the water head first. And babies actually have a natural gasp reflex when it comes to water that is really strong up until about 12-18 months. My thought is that the priest didn't wait for the baby to stop gasping (they gasp inbetween dunks) before he dunked so the baby may have inhaled water that way.
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2010, 12:48:15 AM »

Our priest sort of scoops the baby thru the water head first. And babies actually have a natural gasp reflex when it comes to water that is really strong up until about 12-18 months. My thought is that the priest didn't wait for the baby to stop gasping (they gasp inbetween dunks) before he dunked so the baby may have inhaled water that way.

I am sure he did inhale water. But is inhaling lots of water for 1 minute enough to drown? And if so, why was there just "difficulty" breathing afterwards as opposed to no breating, and why were there bruises on the neck and blood in the mouth? GET THIS PRIEST A GOOD LAWYER.
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2010, 12:58:34 AM »

Babies are incapable of coughing to clear their lungs. The "coughs" a baby has are more from the throat and have little impact on lung function or clearing. This is why a common virus like RSV can cause respiratory problems for a baby. When an adult has RSV they have thick mucous and just cough to clear their lungs. A baby can not cough to clear their lungs, they need assistance to do so.
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2010, 01:00:51 AM »

The bleeding is not consistent with a drowning though. Either the report of bleeding is incorrect, or there was something else going on.
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2010, 03:17:59 AM »

But is inhaling lots of water for 1 minute enough to drown?
For a child that young, it is definitely possible.  When an adult inhales water, your vocal chords contract to prevent most of the water from entering your lungs (relaxing later, usually), but with an infant, their lungs would continue to fill with water while attempting to breathe.  And as Quinault stated, infants don't have the ability to void their lungs of even small amounts of fluid.
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2010, 04:11:58 AM »

But is inhaling lots of water for 1 minute enough to drown?

Ever been to an Orthodox baptism, rakovsky? I've lost count, after several decades. The length of time of immersion the head of the person being baptised, be he a baby, child or adult (where adults will stand in the font, and have their head gently pushed below the water's surface by the priest), is seconds. For babies, the immersion time for each "dunk" is about a second.
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2010, 02:14:24 PM »

Bruising around the neck sounds like strangulation......hummmm Huh police
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2010, 02:41:23 PM »

But is inhaling lots of water for 1 minute enough to drown?

Ever been to an Orthodox baptism, rakovsky? I've lost count, after several decades. The length of time of immersion the head of the person being baptised, be he a baby, child or adult (where adults will stand in the font, and have their head gently pushed below the water's surface by the priest), is seconds. For babies, the immersion time for each "dunk" is about a second.


LBK,

That's what I'm saying. Even if it was a minute due to ignorance of right procedure, even a minute wouldnt be enough.

OK, babies might have lots of problems coughing up water, but it seems that after millions of years, babies would have developed a way to survive something that seems like it would be pretty common over those years.
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2010, 11:34:27 PM »

But is inhaling lots of water for 1 minute enough to drown?

Ever been to an Orthodox baptism, rakovsky? I've lost count, after several decades. The length of time of immersion the head of the person being baptised, be he a baby, child or adult (where adults will stand in the font, and have their head gently pushed below the water's surface by the priest), is seconds. For babies, the immersion time for each "dunk" is about a second.


LBK,

That's what I'm saying. Even if it was a minute due to ignorance of right procedure, even a minute wouldnt be enough.

OK, babies might have lots of problems coughing up water, but it seems that after millions of years, babies would have developed a way to survive something that seems like it would be pretty common over those years.
You assume much about the development of babies.  I'm not sure, though, that your assumptions are grounded in anything but pie-in-the-sky idealism of the way you think things should be.
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2010, 12:27:39 AM »

Mentioned the story to my Dad (former ER doc) today. He said the blood was a sign of abuse.
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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2010, 04:06:08 PM »

Yeah, as this is the first recorded instance of anyone drowing in a baptism for two thousand years, I'm suspicious.
There was a case in 1996 of a baby who drowned in a baptism by immersion at a schimatic breakaway Catholic Church:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-794579.html
http://articles.latimes.com/1996-09-15/news/mn-44277_1_critical-condition
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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2010, 05:20:55 PM »

The stories I have been reading today say this priest failed to cover the mouth and nose when doing the immersion. Every infant Baptism I have ever seen has the covering of the mouth and nose.
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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2010, 09:58:33 AM »

Many of you may already have heard the news from Moldova about an Orthodox priest who is accused of drowning an infant as he was baptizing the child.

Here is a news report with video of the actual baptism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtY2BFs4BLc&feature=related

Very sad.  Cry

The priest is accused of not covering the infant's nose and mouth while baptizing.

I've been to several baptisms and have never seen the priest cover the infant's nose and mouth. I would think the priest needs both his hands to support the baby.
I've gone on to Youtube to see the Orthodox baptisms posted there and could only find one video where a priest covers the infant's nose and mouth.

Greek baptisms have the infant placed in the font with a small amount of water and then the priest pours water over the infant's head.
Russian baptisms have the priest immersing the infant usually feet first into a font full of water.

In the video involving the Moldovan Orthodox priest, he appears to baptize the child head first into the water.

Did he make a tragic mistake by placing the infant head first into the water?
What manner does each autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church baptize infants?

I've merged two topics on the same issue - mike
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« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2010, 11:17:15 AM »

Lord Have Mercy!
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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2010, 11:53:11 AM »

Lord, have mercy!! The priest is putting the baby's head into the water, and doing it quite slowly! I've seen many baptisms and never seen it being done like this-it's always feet first and very quick!! Yikes. The baby otherwise looks strong and healthy.  Cry
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2010, 12:10:46 PM »

Depends on your parish.  The Russian practice is to cradle the infant and dip at top speed, covering mouth and nose. the dunking is over before the parents realize it has happened! The priest was either retarded or totally inexperienced. May the Lord have mercy on him and all those who suffered.
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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2010, 12:15:32 PM »

Lord, have mercy!! The priest is putting the baby's head into the water, and doing it quite slowly! I've seen many baptisms and never seen it being done like this-it's always feet first and very quick!! Yikes. The baby otherwise looks strong and healthy.  Cry

You are a stronger woman than I am!!  I have yet to be able to watch the video.  Just can't quite get to where I can look at it happening in front of my eyes.  Bad enough behind my eyes...

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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2010, 01:21:01 PM »

Depends on your parish.  The Russian practice is to cradle the infant and dip at top speed, covering mouth and nose. the dunking is over before the parents realize it has happened! The priest was either retarded or totally inexperienced. May the Lord have mercy on him and all those who suffered.

I've been to Russian baptisms where the priest dunks the baby up to the neck the first two times, then is completely dunked on the third.

Is this a valid form of baptism or must the baby's head be covered with water all three times?
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« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2010, 01:26:23 PM »

Many of you may already have heard the news from Moldova about an Orthodox priest who is accused of drowning an infant as he was baptizing the child.

Here is a news report with video of the actual baptism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtY2BFs4BLc&feature=related

Very sad.  Cry

The priest is accused of not covering the infant's nose and mouth while baptizing.

I've been to several baptisms and have never seen the priest cover the infant's nose and mouth. I would think the priest needs both his hands to support the baby.
I've gone on to Youtube to see the Orthodox baptisms posted there and could only find one video where a priest covers the infant's nose and mouth.

Greek baptisms have the infant placed in the font with a small amount of water and then the priest pours water over the infant's head.
Russian baptisms have the priest immersing the infant usually feet first into a font full of water.

In the video involving the Moldovan Orthodox priest, he appears to baptize the child head first into the water.

Did he make a tragic mistake by placing the infant head first into the water?
What manner does each autocephalous or autonomous Orthodox Church baptize infants?


I have never actually seen this Russian tradition myself but heard about in my class at University on the eastern Orthodox Church.  The professor explained that with his right  hand the priest uses his palm to cover the mouth & also nose to prevent wat fronm getting in. Then two fingers over the eyes.  And the baptism is head first.  But the priest is supposed to do it very quickly.
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« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2010, 01:49:48 PM »

The report was that the baby had difficulty breathing afterwards (could still breathe apparently), died 20 minutes later, had bruises on the neck, and had blood in the mouth and nose.

My pop was an ER doc and said the blood is a sign of abuse. I allow the possibility that the priest hit the baby's head when dunking head-first and this injury made the blood, but then what about the bruises ont he neck? More injury from hitting the head maybe? But in the movie, it didn't look upside down.

The movie report also said there was frothing at the mouth, and still shows the baby kicking after the baptism. The report from the church was that as far as they could say it was done by canonical procedures. The church person said that as long as no one is exposed, the priest will be punished. You know what exposed here means, right? The church allows the possibility that there was a coverup, or someone hiding something. I agree with the report that there may be hidden abuse here.
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« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2010, 02:05:29 PM »

Lord have mercy.  What a horrible thing.
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« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2010, 02:20:36 PM »

Why are there 2 threads about this?
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« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2010, 04:08:16 PM »

Why are there 2 threads about this?
Not anymore. Wink
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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2010, 04:35:34 PM »

Why are there 2 threads about this?
Not anymore. Wink

Hehe.
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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2010, 04:52:23 PM »

If babies can do this, I doubt three seconds of triple immersion baptism did the baby in:

http://www.amazon.com/Water-Babies-Water---Floating-Swimming/dp/0754807932/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280868715&sr=1-3
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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2010, 05:09:50 PM »

Indeed.  One of the things you learn in physical anthropology is that one of the things that separates humanity from other primates, physically speaking, is our ability to go underwater.  We have an innate "shut off" valve, as it were, that stops us from inhaling water as a reflex action upon submersion.  Apes and other primates don't.
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« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2010, 05:35:55 PM »

Indeed.  One of the things you learn in physical anthropology is that one of the things that separates humanity from other primates, physically speaking, is our ability to go underwater.  We have an innate "shut off" valve, as it were, that stops us from inhaling water as a reflex action upon submersion.  Apes and other primates don't.

Sometimes that does not work. The problem is that even a small amount of water that is inhaled into the lungs can kill you.See the following advisory:

"Infants and Toddlers at Risk of Drowning in Bathtubs, Spas and Buckets

80 percent of deaths involve children younger than two


WASHINGTON, D.C. - When pool season ends, many parents believe the risk of drowning also ends, but data from the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) released today indicates 311 reported non-pool drownings from 2002 through 2004 of children younger than five years of age. More than 80 percent of these deaths involved children younger than two years old. The pattern is much different than that observed in pool-related incidents where children younger than two accounted for 38 percent of deaths (involving children younger than five).

Bathtubs were involved in most (71 percent) of the non-pool drowning deaths from 2002-2004. Many of these incidents involved caregivers leaving the room to answer the phone/door or to retrieve an item. In some incidents, an older sibling was left to watch a younger sibling.

"Infants and toddlers need particularly close supervision," said CPSC Acting Chairman Nancy Nord. "Drowning can occur within seconds in only inches of water, so parents need think of, not just the pool, but any water anywhere as dangerous."

CPSC recommends parents and caregivers follow these safety tips when children are around bathtubs, spas, buckets, or decorative ponds or fountains:

    * Never leave young children alone near any water. Young children can drown in even small amounts of water.
    * Always keep a young child within arm's reach in a bathtub. Never leave to answer the phone, answer the door, get a towel or for any other reason. If you must leave, take the child with you.
    * Don't leave a baby or toddler in a bathtub under the care of another young child.
    * Never leave a bucket containing even a small amount of liquid unattended. Toddlers can fall headfirst into buckets and drown. After using a bucket, always empty and store it where young children cannot reach it. Buckets left outside can collect rainwater and are a hazard.
    * Prevent children from gaining access to spas or hot tubs when not in use; always secure with safety covers and barriers.
    * Learn CPR (cardiopulmonary resuscitation). It can be a lifesaver when seconds count."

While the YouTube video is not of good enough quality, it does seem that the Priest dunked the baby headfirst three times but very quickly between the dunks. If you think about it, the first reflex after one rises up from water is to breathe; in this case, the poor baby may have been dunked again too quickly, while he was inhaling. Head first, by the way, may be the most dangerous way to dunk somebody as water naturally goes into the mouth and nasal cavity and has little chance to drain out by itself (that is why divers blow out the water and air before they inhale air). Anyway, horrible tragedy.
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« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2010, 05:47:22 PM »

Fair enough, but the video clearly shows that the child was kicking and therefore alive when pulled out of the font.

Regardless, this is a tragedy. Sad
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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2010, 06:04:13 PM »

Fair enough, but the video clearly shows that the child was kicking and therefore alive when pulled out of the font.

Regardless, this is a tragedy. Sad

It could have been a case of secondary drowning: "Water, if inhaled into the lungs, may easily damage the inside surface which takes in air. Otherwise known as the alveoli- the tiny sacs surrounded by capillaries- responsible for the gas exchange required for cellular respiration. The unnatural substance (being water) in the lungs will cause an irritation inside the lungs, triggering the lungs to attempt to purge the substance much like a sliver would fester-fluid gathers in/on the lungs creating what is known as pulmonary edema; reducing the ability to exchange air. Because of this, a asphyxiation is a very real possibility. Serious complications or death may occur up to 72 hours after a near drowning incident because of the time the body takes to sense the problem and attempt its own fix. Essentially, the person ends up drowning in their own bodily fluid. This is also known as secondary drowning, or "drowning after drowning" Inhaling certain poisonous vapors or gases, or vomit will have a similar effect."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning#Secondary_drowning
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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2010, 06:21:38 PM »

Fair enough, but the video clearly shows that the child was kicking and therefore alive when pulled out of the font.

Regardless, this is a tragedy. Sad

It could have been a case of secondary drowning: "Water, if inhaled into the lungs, may easily damage the inside surface which takes in air. Otherwise known as the alveoli- the tiny sacs surrounded by capillaries- responsible for the gas exchange required for cellular respiration. The unnatural substance (being water) in the lungs will cause an irritation inside the lungs, triggering the lungs to attempt to purge the substance much like a sliver would fester-fluid gathers in/on the lungs creating what is known as pulmonary edema; reducing the ability to exchange air. Because of this, a asphyxiation is a very real possibility. Serious complications or death may occur up to 72 hours after a near drowning incident because of the time the body takes to sense the problem and attempt its own fix. Essentially, the person ends up drowning in their own bodily fluid. This is also known as secondary drowning, or "drowning after drowning" Inhaling certain poisonous vapors or gases, or vomit will have a similar effect."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning#Secondary_drowning

So maybe an unusual chemical reaction to water in lungs?
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« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2010, 08:12:36 PM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?
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« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2010, 10:45:00 PM »

There is another case of an infant dying by drowning 9 ours after baptism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyBEfuSHu7M&feature=related
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2010, 08:50:37 AM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"
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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2010, 10:43:22 AM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"

It was, for some reason, in the private discussion area.  It was moved w/o fanfare to its present location sometime yesterday. Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2010, 10:48:19 AM »

There is another case of an infant dying by drowning 9 ours after baptism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyBEfuSHu7M&feature=related

What was the cause of death?  I know you said "drowning," but was the baptism the only exposure to water in that 9 hours?
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« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2010, 11:43:28 AM »

A case of secondary drowning, the one Second Chance talks about in his post, apparently.
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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2010, 11:48:56 AM »

^ Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2010, 02:31:42 PM »

Fair enough, but the video clearly shows that the child was kicking and therefore alive when pulled out of the font.

Regardless, this is a tragedy. Sad

It could have been a case of secondary drowning: "Water, if inhaled into the lungs, may easily damage the inside surface which takes in air. Otherwise known as the alveoli- the tiny sacs surrounded by capillaries- responsible for the gas exchange required for cellular respiration. The unnatural substance (being water) in the lungs will cause an irritation inside the lungs, triggering the lungs to attempt to purge the substance much like a sliver would fester-fluid gathers in/on the lungs creating what is known as pulmonary edema; reducing the ability to exchange air. Because of this, a asphyxiation is a very real possibility. Serious complications or death may occur up to 72 hours after a near drowning incident because of the time the body takes to sense the problem and attempt its own fix. Essentially, the person ends up drowning in their own bodily fluid. This is also known as secondary drowning, or "drowning after drowning" Inhaling certain poisonous vapors or gases, or vomit will have a similar effect."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning#Secondary_drowning

So maybe an unusual chemical reaction to water in lungs?

Um...I think that it is the usual reaction to water in the lungs.
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« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2010, 08:58:39 PM »

Lord have mercy. 
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« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2010, 09:03:48 PM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"

That's because it was just moved.
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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2010, 09:14:16 PM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"

That's because it was just moved.
It might help if you would read the whole thread subsequent to the post you want to quote to see if the post has already drawn other replies.  If you had done this, you would have noted that a moderator already answered Nigula's statement. Wink
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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2010, 09:16:56 PM »

How does this thread belong in private EO/OO discussion?

It is in "Free for All"

That's because it was just moved.
It might help if you would read the whole thread subsequent to the post you want to quote to see if the post has already drawn other replies.  If you had done this, you would have noted that a moderator already answered Nigula's statement. Wink

That sounds like good advice Peter. I will try to do that in the future.
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« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2010, 01:54:05 AM »

If secondary drowning is so easy, I would worry about traditional Russian baptism. The safeguard is supposed to be covering the mouth and nose. It seems that the priest would have to hold the mouth shut and also pinch the nose closed. Just putting your hand on top of the mouth or nose might not be enough because apparently there are these unusual situations.

My first reaction with this story is that there's secret abuse because of the bruises and blood. But now I am thinking otherwise, and think maybe I would want Greek baptism. It is troublesome that this has apparently happened more than once and that inhaling water is a deadly possibility.
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« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2010, 04:32:22 AM »

"Greek baptism"? I've seen dozens of Greek baptisms, as well as Russian ones, over several decades, and in every single case, the babies were completely immersed three times. Never seen "immerse the body of the bub and then pour water over his head". For one thing, in most, if not all cases, two people would be needed to do the honours: one to steady the child and prevent him from slipping under, and the other to pour water over his head.

The trick is to dunk quickly, wait a few seconds after the bub is lifted out to let it breathe, then dunk again, and so on. Do it properly, and there's nothing to worry about.
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« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2010, 10:22:54 AM »

I did attend an Old Calendar Serbian baptism once and if I remember correctly, the priest immersed only the bottom half of the baby in the water and he then poured some water over the head.
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« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2010, 10:57:06 AM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
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« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2010, 11:25:33 AM »

"Greek baptism"? I've seen dozens of Greek baptisms, as well as Russian ones, over several decades, and in every single case, the babies were completely immersed three times. Never seen "immerse the body of the bub and then pour water over his head".

Most of the Greek baptisms I've been to do exactly as you say. Dunk the baby and they are in and out rather fast...and they always remain vertical (so water can't go up their nose or anything like that) But I have seen the "dunk down to the shoulders, then pour water over their head" thing a couple times. In those cases the priest would quickly use his other hand to cup some water and then pour it over the babies head. Again all pretty smooth and fast. I've never actually seen anyone ignorant enough to baptize a baby upside down though. (if that's what happened as I didn't actually have the nerve to watch the video, sorry just didn't have it in me knowing the outcome)  If a priest actually did that, IMO he should be punished because dunking a baby upside down into a metal font full of water has got to be . . . . well trying to keep things civil here, I'll just say it is a level of ignorance that I cannot even imagine.

Quote
The trick is to dunk quickly, wait a few seconds after the bub is lifted out to let it breathe, then dunk again, and so on. Do it properly, and there's nothing to worry about.

Exactly. If done right it's over before anyone knows it's happening. Usually priests who have children of their own seem to be much better at it than monastic clergy. Again that's just been my experience where the monastic clergy tend to be a little rough with the children at times, while clergy with families (or who come from families with siblings) just tend to be more gentle. But that's probably true of anyone, priest or not.

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« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2010, 03:49:23 PM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required?
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« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2010, 03:57:01 PM »

I can't speak for all traditions but I have been taught to baptise by a full, triple immersion.

But if the child is immersed to the shoulders and then water sufficient to cover the baby's head is poured over then this is the same as an immersion. It is entirely different to having a small amount of water poured on the forehead or on the head.

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« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2010, 04:01:13 PM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required?

If Orthodox priests are baptising without triple immersion, they are not doing as required.
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« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2010, 04:08:03 PM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required?

If Orthodox priests are baptising without triple immersion, they are not doing as required.
If someone were baptised only by pouring, would the person then have to be rebaptised in order for the Baptism to be recognised?
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« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2010, 04:11:10 PM »

Back home we never dunked anybody. They just poured water on the head.
So the Oirthodox Church does accept Baptism by pouring and triple immersion is not required?

If Orthodox priests are baptising without triple immersion, they are not doing as required.
If someone were baptised only by puring, would the person then have to be rebaptised in order for the Baptism to be recognised?

No, but some insist. Please, go back to the topic.
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« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2011, 04:00:32 PM »

He was sentenced to prison:
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2011/11/priest-gets-prison-time-for-baptism.html
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« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2011, 04:22:24 PM »

Look we can formulate all kinds of theories on this one.  The fact is none of us were there.  We don't know what caused bruising or bleeding...
The issue at hand is that the baby was alive and now is reposed and the cause of its death was with the process of baptism.  I don't think the priest started baptizing a baby bleeding from the mouth unless it was an emergency or the baby was already deathly sick.  In that case the immersion would have been weird and emergency baptism performed.

I've seen infants choke heavily during baptism. 

Our OCA priest always cupped his hand over the babies nose & mouth before a dunk that was just a quick DUNK then up immediately.
 
This is very tragic and sad.

However, if there is a bright side to it, at least this baby's baptism happened and is without doubt in the kingdom with God for eternity since it was purified through baptism.
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« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2014, 07:50:51 PM »

 Huh

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/11/the-story-behind-infant-that-died.html
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« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2014, 08:10:59 PM »

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