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Author Topic: Concluding Theotokia at Great Vespers on 4th class feasts that occur on Sunday  (Read 571 times) Average Rating: 0
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scamandrius
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« on: July 26, 2010, 03:10:48 PM »

OK, Liturgical gurus, here's another one for you.  This past Sunday (July 25) for the Dormition of St. Anna and this coming Sunday (Aug. 1) for the Procession of the Holy Cross, both fourth class feasts, why, after chanting the Resurrectional Apolytikion in the tone of the week, is Glory...both/now chanted with the apolytikion of the feast and no concluding theotokion following?  So, for this sunday (Aug. 1), we will chant "While the stone was sealed", followed by Glory/both now and then "O Lord, Save Thy people."  Why wouldn't the Theotokion "When Gabriel cried to thee, O virgin" follow after that?
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2010, 06:05:20 PM »

My Typikon states: Troparion of the Resurrection, Glory..., Troparion of the Feast, Now and ever..., Festive Theotokion in the tone of the Feast's Troparion. This agree with the Antioch Diocese of the West Typikon chart.  So you are correct.
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2010, 08:47:26 PM »

The weekly notes published online by the Antiochian Archdiocese also agree with you.
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2010, 03:54:02 PM »

OK, Liturgical gurus, here's another one for you.  This past Sunday (July 25) for the Dormition of St. Anna and this coming Sunday (Aug. 1) for the Procession of the Holy Cross, both fourth class feasts, why, after chanting the Resurrectional Apolytikion in the tone of the week, is Glory...both/now chanted with the apolytikion of the feast and no concluding theotokion following?  So, for this sunday (Aug. 1), we will chant "While the stone was sealed", followed by Glory/both now and then "O Lord, Save Thy people."  Why wouldn't the Theotokion "When Gabriel cried to thee, O virgin" follow after that?

Some Apolytikion are actually Theotokion or do not get a Theotokion. St. Anna being the mother to the Theotokos refers to the Theotokos in the Apolytikion so therefore there is no need for a Theotokion. The Troparion of the Cross (along with other major feast of the Lord) do not get Theotokion.
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2010, 04:28:26 PM »

OK, Liturgical gurus, here's another one for you.  This past Sunday (July 25) for the Dormition of St. Anna and this coming Sunday (Aug. 1) for the Procession of the Holy Cross, both fourth class feasts, why, after chanting the Resurrectional Apolytikion in the tone of the week, is Glory...both/now chanted with the apolytikion of the feast and no concluding theotokion following?  So, for this sunday (Aug. 1), we will chant "While the stone was sealed", followed by Glory/both now and then "O Lord, Save Thy people."  Why wouldn't the Theotokion "When Gabriel cried to thee, O virgin" follow after that?

Some Apolytikion are actually Theotokion or do not get a Theotokion. St. Anna being the mother to the Theotokos refers to the Theotokos in the Apolytikion so therefore there is no need for a Theotokion. The Troparion of the Cross (along with other major feast of the Lord) do not get Theotokion.

This is the Greek practice as well.
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scamandrius
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2010, 06:22:46 PM »

The weekly notes published online by the Antiochian Archdiocese also agree with you.

the notes I get every week are from the protopsaltis of the Diocese of Wichita and he has Bishop BASIL's blessing to do this.  In fact, we have been told on numerous occasions by his Grace that the notes on the Antiochian Archdiocese are so frequently littered with errors that we are to ignore them and use the typicon notes we receive from Wichita as the norm.
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2010, 10:21:22 PM »

The weekly notes published online by the Antiochian Archdiocese also agree with you.

the notes I get every week are from the protopsaltis of the Diocese of Wichita and he has Bishop BASIL's blessing to do this.  In fact, we have been told on numerous occasions by his Grace that the notes on the Antiochian Archdiocese are so frequently littered with errors that we are to ignore them and use the typicon notes we receive from Wichita as the norm.
You stated what I hesitated to mention. I have no formal training in liturgics, but even I can spot plenty of errors in those notes. I check other sources when I suspect things to be out of whack. In any case, my priest always sends out his own notes (often after I've made some suggestions - usually based on what our small group of chanters/choir is able to do), so he takes the final responsibility for what actually happens on Sunday morning. I think the Archdiocese just pulls up a template of some kind, perhaps from the equivalent week of a preceding year and doesn't always do a thorough check. However, I have found that things have been somewhat better in the last few months. Since our own bishop hasn't given explicit instructions on these matters, my priest prefers to defer to the Archdiocese unless it's something obviously out of place. Then there are contradictions as well - for example, the liturgical notes will refer to one particular troparion, but when you go to the Sacred Music page, something different is provided with a clear note that this is what is to be used on such and such a date. Frustrating!
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 11:03:36 PM »

The weekly notes published online by the Antiochian Archdiocese also agree with you.

the notes I get every week are from the protopsaltis of the Diocese of Wichita and he has Bishop BASIL's blessing to do this.  In fact, we have been told on numerous occasions by his Grace that the notes on the Antiochian Archdiocese are so frequently littered with errors that we are to ignore them and use the typicon notes we receive from Wichita as the norm.
You stated what I hesitated to mention. I have no formal training in liturgics, but even I can spot plenty of errors in those notes. I check other sources when I suspect things to be out of whack. In any case, my priest always sends out his own notes (often after I've made some suggestions - usually based on what our small group of chanters/choir is able to do), so he takes the final responsibility for what actually happens on Sunday morning. I think the Archdiocese just pulls up a template of some kind, perhaps from the equivalent week of a preceding year and doesn't always do a thorough check. However, I have found that things have been somewhat better in the last few months. Since our own bishop hasn't given explicit instructions on these matters, my priest prefers to defer to the Archdiocese unless it's something obviously out of place. Then there are contradictions as well - for example, the liturgical notes will refer to one particular troparion, but when you go to the Sacred Music page, something different is provided with a clear note that this is what is to be used on such and such a date. Frustrating!
Let us keep this discussion on topic. Everyone who uses these sources is well aware of their shortfalls and complaining about it here does no good.
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Joseph
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