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Author Topic: What I still can't get my head round  (Read 34329 times) Average Rating: 0
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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #585 on: April 06, 2011, 12:04:26 PM »

Put it this way.  Even after the almost two years we have been discussing, I still simply don't understand.  I don't understand how one can just flat out deny the historical teachings of the Church as if they don't exist!  I don't understand how one can just ignore what the Church taught in the first millenium of Her existence as though it doesn't matter, and just make up what one wants to follow instead and call it Christianity!  I simply don't understand how one can deny the words of a writer who has been historically proven to be a student of one of the twelve (not to mention a leader in the early Church who everyone back then accepted as knowing what the blazes he was talking about), and just pretend that he was a crackpot who didn't know what he was talking about, and instead follow someone who came 1500 years later and had NO connection with the apostles who teaches something RADICALLY different!  I just don't get it.  I just don't understand how one can willlingly follow a methodology of doing theology which leads to the likes of Mormons and JW's (please note, I said the METHODOLOGY, I'm not comparing the actual theology of Protestants to that of Mormon's and JW's).  The methodology is the same-- discard the historical, traditional teachings of the Church which are proven to go back all the way to the apostles themselves, in favor of another interpretation, a novel interpretation, your own interpretation, your own way.  Same methodology.  And bad methodology equals bad results.

It's actually pretty easy - the entire Protestant world is built on that premise. All you need is some pride and ignorance of history, and a pinch of arrogance. What's really difficult for us human beings is the humility of admitting that you don't know everything there is to know, and the obedience to submit yourself to the Church. The beginning of true wisdom, I think, is the willingness to admit at least the theoretical possibility that you could be wrong about something.

Oh, and the real problem is, it seems to me, if you once give credence to any one itsy bitsy part of it and so acknowledge the validity of the evidence of historical Christianity and the Church, you have to abandon your former delusions to become Orthodox. Or admit to yourself that you are not really interested in the Truth.

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« Reply #586 on: April 06, 2011, 04:05:31 PM »

Allow me to indulge myself a bit further.

If all the great heresies were defended by their adherents with Scripture, then there must be a mechanism to discern what is correct.

For example, I have a book that writes out all the exact details of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, the one the dealt with Icons.
The issue is beside the point. The method of determining the Truth clearly demonstrates that Holy Tradition organically exists within Christianity and is indispensable.

After some decades of great conflict over the issue of the use of Icons, The Church did what is has always done when confronted with a big question of Faith. They called a Council, one Bishop one vote.

Each side was present and well represented. All Scriptural evidence was presented and discussed and debated at great length. Each side could make a reasonable case for and against Icons from Scripture. But the Council was able to ask another question. What has been the Tradition of the Christian Church in the use of Icons and what have the Fathers said about it?

So let's turn the facts around and pretend that drawing Icons was a new thing. Had the Council been confronted with a practice that was only 25 or 30 years old, no matter what Scriptural support it had, it would not have been accepted. It would have been seen as a change in the practice of Christianity, despite any Scriptural evidence.

But the opposite was the case. icon writing was known to have existed from the earliest times. St. Luke was thought to have written icons.

Scriptural support plus historical consistency plus approval of the great sages and Fathers equals correct doctrine.

 What else could possibly be more reasonable and where would we be without the ability to draw from the Church's long experience, which we call Holy Tradition, when Scripture is not clear or contradictory or can be interpreted in different ways.  

Sola Scritura isnt wrong, it's impossible. The Protestants draw from their own Tradition all the time. They even draw heavily from The Church's Holy Tradition.

Don't the Baptists have a good understanding of Christology? Don't they accept Christ's Two natures in Hypostatic Union, Fully God and Fully Man... Where did that come from ? Does each Baptist, no matter how uneducated or perhaps simple minded need to draw sophisticated conclusions for himself? Of course not. They have simply kept that part of Holy Tradition that suits them.

And when something doesn't suit them, what happens? Do the go back to the experience of the whole of Christian Life?
No, they schism. Then they re-schism and then re-re-re-schism.

That is why Our David has taken some pains to let us know British Baptists are not the same ilk as Southern Baptists who are not the same as the American Baptists who are certainly not like the Mennonites much less like the Anglicans and the hundreds of subsets under each one(" Eastern Missouri Snyodal Southern Bible Only Adhering to Prophecy ..Baptists").

Sola Scripture does not really exist.  And when this phantom doctrine is attempted it fails and results only in age old heresies being brought back to life and schisms.  
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 04:12:45 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #587 on: April 06, 2011, 04:51:37 PM »

The Vincentian Canon:
"Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly 'Catholic,' as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality [i.e. oecumenicity], antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike.

(4) What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb. But what if some novel contagion try to infect the whole Church, and not merely a tiny part of it? Then he will take care to cleave to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any deceit of novelty. What if in antiquity itself two or three men, or it may be a city, or even a whole province be detected in error? Then he will take the greatest care to prefer the decrees of the ancient General Councils, if there are such, to the irresponsible ignorance of a few men. But what if some error arises regarding which nothing of this sort is to be found? Then he must do his best to compare the opinions of the Fathers and inquire their meaning, provided always that, though they belonged to diverse times and places, they yet continued in the faith and communion of the one Catholic Church; and let them be teachers approved and outstanding. And whatever he shall find to have been held, approved and taught, not by one or two only but by all equally and with one consent, openly, frequently, and persistently, let him take this as to be held by him without the slightest hesitation."

St. Vincent of Lerins, ca. 435
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« Reply #588 on: April 06, 2011, 05:43:43 PM »

So interpretive dance, praise bands, and fake healings are okay in worship?  

I have not experienced the first two phenomena, and third (which I have observed) is obviously phoney and I have never attempted to defend it.

Quote
Even after the almost two years we have been discussing, I still simply don't understand.

Then you, GreekChef, and your colleagues have had greater success than I, for I think I have been granted a fairly clear understanding of your beliefs and why you hold them.

But I am off to the Greek Sila again in a few days, and with my wife's birthday and our son's visit from York, I fear you may not hear from me much more for a while. Please do not deem it another cop-out.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 05:44:12 PM by David Young » Logged

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« Reply #589 on: April 06, 2011, 06:10:19 PM »

The Vincentian Canon:
"Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly 'Catholic,' as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality [i.e. oecumenicity], antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike.

(4) What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb. But what if some novel contagion try to infect the whole Church, and not merely a tiny part of it? Then he will take care to cleave to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any deceit of novelty. What if in antiquity itself two or three men, or it may be a city, or even a whole province be detected in error? Then he will take the greatest care to prefer the decrees of the ancient General Councils, if there are such, to the irresponsible ignorance of a few men. But what if some error arises regarding which nothing of this sort is to be found? Then he must do his best to compare the opinions of the Fathers and inquire their meaning, provided always that, though they belonged to diverse times and places, they yet continued in the faith and communion of the one Catholic Church; and let them be teachers approved and outstanding. And whatever he shall find to have been held, approved and taught, not by one or two only but by all equally and with one consent, openly, frequently, and persistently, let him take this as to be held by him without the slightest hesitation."

St. Vincent of Lerins, ca. 435

Read the 2nd chapter of the Commonitory again. Then read the 28th chapter. Then think about them.  Smiley
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« Reply #590 on: April 14, 2011, 02:48:16 PM »

You know, it's interesting this discussion on accretions.

David Young has spoken at length about what he considers "additives" to the original Christian faith. His view is not different from the normal Protestant view.

This week, as we approach Holy Week, a week that really isn't observed in most Protestant circles with the exception of maybe Maundy Thursday and Good Friday, I'm seeing a flurry of activity from my Protestant friends on Facebook. "Easter isn't just about chocolates and bunnies!" They exclaim. "Post this if you really know the true meaning of Easter!"

Well, I don't need to affirm the true meaning of Easter because the Church has already done that for me. Every day on the Church Calendar, every Sunday during Holy Lent (heck, every Sunday during the year) I am reminded of the true meaning of Easter. (And if we really want to get correct, let's drop the Pagan name and use the proper name of "Pascha.")

In Scripture, St. Paul refers to our life in Christ as a race. To run a race requires discipline. Constant training. Anyone who has ever spent any time on a track team knows that even if you are a sprinter, you have to train with the marathon runners to build endurance. It is a daily regiment that trains the body how to handle the struggles faced during a race.

These "accretions" that you speak of may have been added after the 12 had passed away, but they are what keep us disciplined in the race. They are the constant reminders that make our faith a daily faith, and not just a Sunday faith.

Did you know that each day of the week has been dedicated to a different saint or angel? That we fast, not just before Pascha, but throughout the year? These are all small reminders of who we serve on a daily basis.

You and I have spoken at length in the past about how understated Pascha is in the Protestant traditions. A Sunrise Service with a couple pots of Resurrection Lillies, a few hymns declaring the Resurrection, and it's over.

For us, Pascha is a fifty day celebration to Pentecost, plus it is celebrated every Sunday.

I feel sad for my Protestant friends, for they will never know the sorrowful joy of Lent, or what it truly means to experience the joy of Holy Pascha.

So you see, we have our "accretion" with the Church calender, they have theirs with Facebook posts.
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« Reply #591 on: April 18, 2011, 09:36:48 AM »

Not to derail the thread or anything, but "Easter" has no relation to Paganism (not that the Orthodox Church is free from adopting Pagan things and sanctifying them...). It wasn't until the 19th century that certain scholars postulated some sort of goddess/deity as having been the source from which "easter" derives, but there's absolutely no evidence for it. Every recorded instance of the word is has Christian connotations. It comes from the Saxon month Eostre (April) and the Anglo-Saxon Orthodox never called it "pascha" or anything other than Easter.
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« Reply #592 on: April 18, 2011, 03:36:59 PM »

Not to derail the thread or anything, but "Easter" has no relation to Paganism (not that the Orthodox Church is free from adopting Pagan things and sanctifying them...). It wasn't until the 19th century that certain scholars postulated some sort of goddess/deity as having been the source from which "easter" derives, but there's absolutely no evidence for it. Every recorded instance of the word is has Christian connotations. It comes from the Saxon month Eostre (April) and the Anglo-Saxon Orthodox never called it "pascha" or anything other than Easter.

Not according to St. Bede:
Quote
Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre#Bede.27s_account

Nonetheless, Bede has no problem with using the term.
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« Reply #593 on: April 18, 2011, 06:45:02 PM »

Bede is the only person who mentions the goddess Eostre and since him there has been zero corroborating evidence. Which is why most scholars think he was just mistaken.
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« Reply #594 on: April 18, 2011, 07:31:21 PM »

Bede is the only person who mentions the goddess Eostre and since him there has been zero corroborating evidence. Which is why most scholars think he was just mistaken.

I still like this passage from St Bede because it shows that, even were it true, it makes no difference.

It really tries my Christian charity when secular people have this massive "aha, gotcha!" moment when they discover that the word "Easter" is possibly derived from "Eostre". It's like they think this "knowledge" completely undoes Christianity.
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« Reply #595 on: April 20, 2011, 09:17:18 AM »

For us, Pascha is a fifty day celebration to Pentecost, plus it is celebrated every Sunday.

I feel sad for my Protestant friends, for they will never know the sorrowful joy of Lent, or what it truly means to experience the joy of Holy Pascha.


I agree, Handmaiden. I don't understand why they cut short the joy of the Resurrection. Of what benefit is the Incarnation, other than just a neat story, if Christ did not rise from the dead and open the way for us?
I find myself so excited for the services at the end of this week, I am struggling to pay attention during the service at hand.  angel

Honestly, I think if most Western Christians saw an Orthodox Paschal service, they'd convert on the spot.
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« Reply #596 on: April 20, 2011, 12:53:53 PM »

For us, Pascha is a fifty day celebration to Pentecost, plus it is celebrated every Sunday.

I feel sad for my Protestant friends, for they will never know the sorrowful joy of Lent, or what it truly means to experience the joy of Holy Pascha.


I agree, Handmaiden. I don't understand why they cut short the joy of the Resurrection. Of what benefit is the Incarnation, other than just a neat story, if Christ did not rise from the dead and open the way for us?
I find myself so excited for the services at the end of this week, I am struggling to pay attention during the service at hand.  angel

Honestly, I think if most Western Christians saw an Orthodox Paschal service, they'd convert on the spot.
My experience tells me that this is just wishful thinking.
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« Reply #597 on: April 20, 2011, 01:18:57 PM »

Well, of course. It's hyperbole. But I think we'd get a few. Especially when you consider this is what the Western church is offering for Easter
http://goonthejourney.com/#/current-series
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« Reply #598 on: April 20, 2011, 02:57:21 PM »

We had a young woman attend a Baptism ( full triple immersion) about two months ago. She asked right away how to become Orthodox.
She was made a catechuman about two weeks later.

There are some people who are awestruck and want more right away. There are also people who become frightened and run out the door when they see the exact same thing.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 03:17:29 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #599 on: April 20, 2011, 04:22:56 PM »

For us, Pascha is a fifty day celebration to Pentecost, plus it is celebrated every Sunday.

I feel sad for my Protestant friends, for they will never know the sorrowful joy of Lent, or what it truly means to experience the joy of Holy Pascha.


I agree, Handmaiden. I don't understand why they cut short the joy of the Resurrection. Of what benefit is the Incarnation, other than just a neat story, if Christ did not rise from the dead and open the way for us?
I find myself so excited for the services at the end of this week, I am struggling to pay attention during the service at hand.  angel

Honestly, I think if most Western Christians saw an Orthodox Paschal service, they'd convert on the spot.
My experience tells me that this is just wishful thinking.
Indeed, if only it was that easy. Considering the somewhat "visual" appearances that may hearken to Roman Catholicism, I don't think Protestants would embrace it without more further inquiry than just one beautiful night of service.
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« Reply #600 on: April 20, 2011, 05:28:30 PM »

Honestly, I think if most Western Christians saw an Orthodox Paschal service, they'd convert on the spot.
That depends.  I have attended more than one Orthodox Paschal service and thought they were very beautiful.  However, I think there are beautiful WESTERN liturgical services as well.  Smiley
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« Reply #601 on: April 20, 2011, 10:38:50 PM »

Honestly, I think if most Western Christians saw an Orthodox Paschal service, they'd convert on the spot.
That depends.  I have attended more than one Orthodox Paschal service and thought they were very beautiful.  However, I think there are beautiful WESTERN liturgical services as well.  Smiley

This thought is true for me.  While the Orthodox have probably hands-down the most beautiful and profound liturgical services year-round than any other church body (and smack-down for Holy Week) - and this 'fact' draws me more to attending Orthodox services than those of other traditions - I don't really know, but would like to see, what a true-to-form Roman Catholic Tridentine mass would feel like, and what sort of effect it might have.  Before we could get into any of the particulars that Catholics better know about their liturgies, what I *know* that I prefer about the Tridentine form to the Novus Ordo is the overall penitential character of the old mass.  For that it wouldn't matter much to me whether it would be in Latin or English (although if in English, the refined Early Modern English, KJV-style, would do best.)  Bearing influences as they do or did from the Roman Catholics without some of whatever they considered the problematic theology, I would also like to attend the style of earliest Protestant liturgies as worked out by Luther, Cranmer, and maybe even Calvin before the 1600s (of course these would not be the same or even very similar to each other.)

(If you would indulge me in these thoughts...)  I know that the Orthodox think such wishing to explore 'beautiful' liturgies other than the Orthodox ("the source" as it's known by the namesake of these boards) would be counterproductive if one is trying to get at the best, most refined and "true" "fullness" of liturgical worship.  For me the method - intellectual with spiritual discernment? - of seemingly all converts to either Orthodoxy or Catholicism, is not the most compelling or motivating.  Or just the 'intellectual' part.  I feel that I do not have the caliber of mind to measure the history, the terms, the implications or derivations, whatever fancy words that can be come up with to describe the daunting mental process that seemingly must be gone through to convert to a new faith and ideology.  Beauty and devotion (the latter after much-needed rousing, unfortunately) is the primary attraction for me, how it resonates with the spirit in me and that I would hope and pray is from God and not from His enemy - how does a simple-minded person rise to that challenge?  I am simple-minded, raised in a literal reading of Scriptures and really, I don't want to give up that approach because otherwise just about everything (as issues) looks maddeningly confusing and wrenching, apart from (most of) the precise prayers and liturgy of the churches (Orthodox or Catholic, and sometimes Protestant although sometimes the gist of progressive Protestant sermons seem to conflict with the prayers and liturgy used.)

Could go longer from there... but I should wrap up and say that, to tie in with what was quoted at top, for this week - I am prepared time-off from work-wise in my curiosity for beauty and inspiration to attend all of the Orthodox Holy Week services starting with the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil tomorrow a.m.  I have been going on-and-off to an Orthodox church for more than a year, but I never went to the Holy Week services last year.  For my peace of mind as an oft-conflicted, 'ember' Protestant, could some say what are easier services to attend, perhaps?  Although I have the time to attend all, I might not if some are particularly heavy on prostrations, processions and the like... unless it's still okay after being seen over the course of a year at the same church to look like a bump on a log at the back wall, the only participation being making the sign of the cross at the invocation of the Trinity and perhaps a slight bow of the head should the priest pass by in procession.

Aaron
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« Reply #602 on: April 20, 2011, 10:47:40 PM »

Well I noticed that I included a comment as to the Orthodox being the best liturgical services - "smack-down for Holy Week" - and then further down implied that I have never been to any.  Not to the Pascha or assortment of 'Good Friday' services, but this week I did go to Bridegroom 'Monday' Matins at the usual church I oft-attend.  What little piece time-wise of Holy Week it was convinced me that the Orthodox do have it better than others... although regular Sunday Divine Liturgy is enough indication of that, I think.
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« Reply #603 on: April 20, 2011, 11:41:39 PM »

Honestly, I think if most Western Christians saw an Orthodox Paschal service, they'd convert on the spot.
That depends.  I have attended more than one Orthodox Paschal service and thought they were very beautiful.  However, I think there are beautiful WESTERN liturgical services as well.  Smiley

This thought is true for me.  While the Orthodox have probably hands-down the most beautiful and profound liturgical services year-round than any other church body (and smack-down for Holy Week) - and this 'fact' draws me more to attending Orthodox services than those of other traditions - I don't really know, but would like to see, what a true-to-form Roman Catholic Tridentine mass would feel like, and what sort of effect it might have.  Before we could get into any of the particulars that Catholics better know about their liturgies, what I *know* that I prefer about the Tridentine form to the Novus Ordo is the overall penitential character of the old mass.  For that it wouldn't matter much to me whether it would be in Latin or English (although if in English, the refined Early Modern English, KJV-style, would do best.)  Bearing influences as they do or did from the Roman Catholics without some of whatever they considered the problematic theology, I would also like to attend the style of earliest Protestant liturgies as worked out by Luther, Cranmer, and maybe even Calvin before the 1600s (of course these would not be the same or even very similar to each other.)

(If you would indulge me in these thoughts...)  I know that the Orthodox think such wishing to explore 'beautiful' liturgies other than the Orthodox ("the source" as it's known by the namesake of these boards) would be counterproductive if one is trying to get at the best, most refined and "true" "fullness" of liturgical worship.  For me the method - intellectual with spiritual discernment? - of seemingly all converts to either Orthodoxy or Catholicism, is not the most compelling or motivating.  Or just the 'intellectual' part.  I feel that I do not have the caliber of mind to measure the history, the terms, the implications or derivations, whatever fancy words that can be come up with to describe the daunting mental process that seemingly must be gone through to convert to a new faith and ideology.  Beauty and devotion (the latter after much-needed rousing, unfortunately) is the primary attraction for me, how it resonates with the spirit in me and that I would hope and pray is from God and not from His enemy - how does a simple-minded person rise to that challenge?  I am simple-minded, raised in a literal reading of Scriptures and really, I don't want to give up that approach because otherwise just about everything (as issues) looks maddeningly confusing and wrenching, apart from (most of) the precise prayers and liturgy of the churches (Orthodox or Catholic, and sometimes Protestant although sometimes the gist of progressive Protestant sermons seem to conflict with the prayers and liturgy used.)

Could go longer from there... but I should wrap up and say that, to tie in with what was quoted at top, for this week - I am prepared time-off from work-wise in my curiosity for beauty and inspiration to attend all of the Orthodox Holy Week services starting with the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil tomorrow a.m.  I have been going on-and-off to an Orthodox church for more than a year, but I never went to the Holy Week services last year.  For my peace of mind as an oft-conflicted, 'ember' Protestant, could some say what are easier services to attend, perhaps?  Although I have the time to attend all, I might not if some are particularly heavy on prostrations, processions and the like... unless it's still okay after being seen over the course of a year at the same church to look like a bump on a log at the back wall, the only participation being making the sign of the cross at the invocation of the Trinity and perhaps a slight bow of the head should the priest pass by in procession.

Aaron

I did not mean to imply that Western Liturgies are not beautiful, but as the discussion was Protestantism vs. Orthodoxy, that was the focus of my post.

If you want to see a Traditional Latin Catholic Easter Mass, you have to look no further than YouTube:

Here is a wonderful video with ArchBishop Fulton Sheen narrating a 1941 Easter Mass at Our Lady of Sorrows in Chicago, IL. (No, I'm not a Liturgy junkie, I promise! lol)

In regards to attending Orthodox services, you are ALWAYS welcome. The Church is a "hospital for sinners," and unless you are Christ Himself, I believe you (as well as I) fall in that category. So feel free to be a "bump on a log" in the back. We'd love to have you. Smiley
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« Reply #604 on: April 21, 2011, 07:27:32 AM »

One thing that stands out as a big difference in those who are "seeking" a church, is the one between those who are trying to find the one that best fulfills their perceived needs (what's in it for me? what church will make me feel the best? what church will help me the most?) and those whose focus is solely on Christ. Notice the focus and mindset here!  Is the desire is to find the most programs and goodies that are already set up and run by others, and then you want to just feel good when you leave? Or is the goal to find the Truth and humbly worship and seek to find ways to help your brothers and sisters in the parish? If you seek first the Kingdom of God all those things will be added to you.
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« Reply #605 on: April 21, 2011, 09:35:10 AM »

Honestly, I think if most Western Christians saw an Orthodox Paschal service, they'd convert on the spot.
That depends.  I have attended more than one Orthodox Paschal service and thought they were very beautiful.  However, I think there are beautiful WESTERN liturgical services as well.  Smiley

It's been a while now since I've been to it, but I recall attending the Easter Vigil at the University of Steubenville in OH, and I found it very beautiful and joyful.
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« Reply #606 on: April 21, 2011, 12:13:23 PM »

I don't really know, but would like to see, what a true-to-form Roman Catholic Tridentine mass would feel like, and what sort of effect it might have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE

I think it's absolutely breathtaking. It really gets going at about 3:20.
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« Reply #607 on: April 21, 2011, 12:51:09 PM »

One thing that stands out as a big difference in those who are "seeking" a church, is the one between those who are trying to find the one that best fulfills their perceived needs (what's in it for me? what church will make me feel the best? what church will help me the most?) and those whose focus is solely on Christ. Notice the focus and mindset here!  Is the desire is to find the most programs and goodies that are already set up and run by others, and then you want to just feel good when you leave? Or is the goal to find the Truth and humbly worship and seek to find ways to help your brothers and sisters in the parish? If you seek first the Kingdom of God all those things will be added to you.

I entirely agree: but of course, it's exactly what we say as well!

Anyway, a blessed Easter to all.

...oh! and some of you add pictures to your posts. How on earth do you do it?  Huh
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« Reply #608 on: April 21, 2011, 03:09:54 PM »

Not to derail the thread or anything, but "Easter" has no relation to Paganism (not that the Orthodox Church is free from adopting Pagan things and sanctifying them...). It wasn't until the 19th century that certain scholars postulated some sort of goddess/deity as having been the source from which "easter" derives, but there's absolutely no evidence for it. Every recorded instance of the word is has Christian connotations. It comes from the Saxon month Eostre (April) and the Anglo-Saxon Orthodox never called it "pascha" or anything other than Easter.

Not according to St. Bede:
Quote
Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre#Bede.27s_account

Nonetheless, Bede has no problem with using the term.

aigh!!! <glyph of head hitting the keyboard> I should have known that this would show up again.  Bede was wrong on this point.  In the Anglo-Saxon Language ("Old English") every word that we know that begins with eost- refers in some way to either the direction that the sun rises or the Feast of the Resurrection.  I thought that I had posted links to the relevant pages of Clark Hall a while ago in a different thread...

Ah, found them. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16085.0.html

and here's part of my old post with the links, which I checked and they're still good.

"There is no Anglo Saxon 'goddess' named "Eostre", and I've seen some other really dubious things associated with this non-existant being such as a claim that the homone "Estrogen" is gets it name from that source.  (It doesn't)

So "Easter" is not a "pagan" word.   

Here are the links to the pertinent pages of Clark Hall:

http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oe_clarkhall/b0085.png
http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/oe_clarkhall/b0086.png

They'll show up in very tiny print. Click on the symbol in the lower right corner to enlarge."

Well, I don't think that this idea showed itself last year, so I guess it was time.  but still...

Ebor
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« Reply #609 on: April 21, 2011, 03:13:13 PM »

Honestly, I think if most Western Christians saw an Orthodox Paschal service, they'd convert on the spot.
That depends.  I have attended more than one Orthodox Paschal service and thought they were very beautiful.  However, I think there are beautiful WESTERN liturgical services as well.  Smiley

I agree with you, D.T. and to me they are more so, but that's me and not *in any way* meant as any kind of insult to others, I assure you.

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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« Reply #610 on: April 26, 2011, 11:17:44 AM »

One thing that stands out as a big difference in those who are "seeking" a church, is the one between those who are trying to find the one that best fulfills their perceived needs (what's in it for me? what church will make me feel the best? what church will help me the most?) and those whose focus is solely on Christ. Notice the focus and mindset here!  Is the desire is to find the most programs and goodies that are already set up and run by others, and then you want to just feel good when you leave? Or is the goal to find the Truth and humbly worship and seek to find ways to help your brothers and sisters in the parish? If you seek first the Kingdom of God all those things will be added to you.

Amen!
In many ways, Orthodoxy is not really what I ever thought would fulfill my needs - I didn't go "church-shopping" for the best programs, or the friendliest people or the prettiest liturgy. I wasn't even consciously aware that I was looking for the Truth. I fought conversion tooth and nail for quite a while.
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« Reply #611 on: April 26, 2011, 11:27:56 AM »

Okay so Easter isn't a Pagan word.

Did any of you read anything else I wrote in that post?

*facepalm*
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« Reply #612 on: September 24, 2011, 04:00:35 PM »


shows the symbol of the phoenix is not dead
I just came across something on this topic of the phoenix, (the preview is missing the first page, but the rest is viewable.  It also has interesting things like Theodoret on philogical remarks on the LXX, Greek loans in the Dead Sea Copper Scroll, the Greek text of the Martyrdom of Polycarp, St. John the Baptist and the Madaba map, etc.)
BETWEEN OLD AND NEW: THE PROBLEM OF ACCULTURATION ILLUSTRATED BY THE EARLY CHRISTIAN USE OF THE PHOENIX MOTIF ANDERS KLOSTERGAARD PETERSEN
in Jerusalem, Alexandria, Rome: studies in ancient cultural interaction By A. Hilhorst, Florentino García Martínez, Gerard P. Luttikhuizen
http://books.google.com/books?id=cCaPZkg4vF0C&pg=PA147&dq=Between+Old+and+New:The+Problem+of+Acculturation+Illustrated+by+the+Early+Christian+Usage+of+the+Phoenix+Motif+Anders+Klostergaard+Petersen&hl=en&ei=DTJ-TreyF-nn0QHM0fUC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Between%20Old%20and%20New%3AThe%20Problem%20of%20Acculturation%20Illustrated%20by%20the%20Early%20Christian%20Usage%20of%20the%20Phoenix%20Motif%20Anders%20Klostergaard%20Petersen&f=false
t
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