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Author Topic: Why Filioque Is a Christological Error  (Read 31449 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #630 on: May 18, 2011, 02:38:04 PM »

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For Anselm says (De Process. Spir. Sancti, ii): "The Son and the Holy Ghost have their Being from the Father; but each in a different way; one by Birth, the other by Procession, so that they are thus distinct from one another." And further on he says: "For even if for no other reason were the Son and the Holy Ghost distinct, this alone would suffice."

Interesting.
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« Reply #631 on: May 18, 2011, 02:48:16 PM »

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
The Lord did not say that the Spirit proceeded from him, merely that It would be sent from the father through him. Here lies the mistake, because someone may have misread the text.
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« Reply #632 on: May 18, 2011, 04:16:11 PM »

I am sympathetic to Aquinas' argument, but I think the filioque is a point on which Christians should be able to fairly disagree without being considered less Catholic/Orthodox. I know that some Catholics and Orthodox disagree, and feel it's a point that is necessary to include or exclude (it's a historically contentious point, of course), but I have no problem with it being included or excluded according to the custom of the place where the creed is recited.
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« Reply #633 on: May 18, 2011, 04:28:53 PM »

I am sympathetic to Aquinas' argument,

Quote
Therefore the Son and the Holy Ghost must be related to each other by opposite relations.

This makes sense. The Holy Spirit rests in and is sent from the Son.

Quote
Now there cannot be in God any relations opposed to each other, except relations of origin, as proved above (Question 28, Article 44).

The fathers all say that the Father is the origin and that is what makes Him the Father.

Quote
And opposite relations of origin are to be understood as of a "principle," and of what is "from the principle." Therefore we must conclude that it is necessary to say that either the Son is from the Holy Ghost; which no one says; or that the Holy Ghost is from the Son, as we confess.

This gives the Son something that belongs to the personhood (as opposed to the essence) of the Father. When taken in context with the "single spiration from a single principle" pronounced at Florence, this confuses the persons of the Father and the Son.

Does Aquinas do anything to make a clear distinction between the processional relationship from the Father and the processional relationship from the Son?
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« Reply #634 on: May 18, 2011, 04:33:23 PM »

The fathers all say that the Father is the origin and that is what makes Him the Father.
I thought that it was the existence of and relationship to the Son that makes the Father the Father.
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« Reply #635 on: May 18, 2011, 04:39:21 PM »

Melodist: Aquinas argues in the quoted portion that the Son proceeds by way of intellect (the logos) while the Spirit proceeds by way of will (love). Would this be the distinction you were asking for?

I think you might want to re-examine the part you said makes sense (not that re-examining would make you agree with it, but I think maybe you missed why you would disagree with it, as it seems on my initial reading, though I could be wrong, that it doesn't gel with other parts of your post). The argument is that the Father remains one person because he has separate but not opposite relations to the Spirit and the Son. The Son and the Spirit are two persons because they have opposite relations to the Father. He then argues that distinctions in the Divine Essence can only be distinctions of origin (if they were another kind of distinction God would not remain one Essence), and so the Spirit must proceed from the Son, because will must proceed from intellect.

But to be honest, for my own part I am not sure I understand the distinction between saying the Spirit proceeds "From the Father and the Son" and saying it proceeds "From the Father through the Son". On my initial reading it would seem that both are equally valid, because one might say that will proceeds from body and intellect ('body' used here analogically of course), or one might say that will proceeds from body through intellect, and it seems to me that these capture the truth more or less equally.
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« Reply #636 on: May 18, 2011, 04:51:49 PM »

Melodist: Aquinas argues in the quoted portion that the Son proceeds by way of intellect (the logos) while the Spirit proceeds by way of will (love). Would this be the distinction you were asking for?

Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son in the same exact manner and relationship as The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father? It sounds like he is saying that He does.
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« Reply #637 on: May 18, 2011, 04:52:57 PM »

Well I guess I'd ask you to define "manner and relationship"? Aquinas is saying that the Son proceeds from the intellect of the Father (the Father's knowledge of Himself) and the Spirit proceeds from the will of the Father (the Father's love of Himself), but I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing you mean.
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« Reply #638 on: May 18, 2011, 04:58:20 PM »

If procession is the relationship that the Holy Spirit has to the Father, and the Holy Spirit has this same relationship of procession to the Son, how do you differentiate between how the Holy Spirit relates to the Father and how the Holy Spirit relates to the Son?
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« Reply #639 on: May 18, 2011, 05:06:41 PM »

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
The Lord did not say that the Spirit proceeded from him, merely that It would be sent from the father through him. Here lies the mistake, because someone may have misread the text.

On the contrary, St. Augustine makes it clear that he was aware of what the Gospel said, then goes on to point out that it doesn't say "from the Father alone".
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« Reply #640 on: May 18, 2011, 05:16:11 PM »

I am sympathetic to Aquinas' argument, but I think the filioque is a point on which Christians should be able to fairly disagree without being considered less Catholic/Orthodox.

If you mean disagreeing about whether the filioque should be included in the Creed, then I have no problem with that. But that's a far cry from saying that they can disagree with the teaching that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
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« Reply #641 on: May 18, 2011, 05:37:02 PM »

This is what I was looking for.

Reply to Objection 1. In every action two things are to be considered, the "suppositum" acting, and the power whereby it acts; as, for instance, fire heats through heat. So if we consider in the Father and the Son the power whereby they spirate the Holy Ghost, there is no mean, for this is one and the same power. But if we consider the persons themselves spirating, then, as the Holy Ghost proceeds both from the Father and from the Son, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father immediately, as from Him, and mediately, as from the Son; and thus He is said to proceed from the Father through the Son. So also did Abel proceed immediately from Adam, inasmuch as Adam was his father; and mediately, as Eve was his mother, who proceeded from Adam; although, indeed, this example of a material procession is inept to signify the immaterial procession of the divine persons.

Reply to Objection 2. If the Son received from the Father a numerically distinct power for the spiration of the Holy Ghost, it would follow that He would be a secondary and instrumental cause; and thus the Holy Ghost would proceed more from the Father than from the Son; whereas, on the contrary, the same spirative power belongs to the Father and to the Son; and therefore the Holy Ghost proceeds equally from both, although sometimes He is said to proceed principally or properly from the Father, because the Son has this power from the Father.

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« Reply #642 on: May 19, 2011, 09:13:09 AM »

Christus resurrexit!
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
The Lord did not say that the Spirit proceeded from him, merely that It would be sent from the father through him. Here lies the mistake, because someone may have misread the text.

On the contrary, St. Augustine makes it clear that he was aware of what the Gospel said, then goes on to point out that it doesn't say "from the Father alone".

And he was wrong. He also admitted that the Truth was in the Greek writings, but he couldn't read them. He was misled by Victorinus' translation of Greek philiosophy.
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« Reply #643 on: May 19, 2011, 09:14:39 AM »

Christ is risen!
This is what I was looking for.

Reply to Objection 1. In every action two things are to be considered, the "suppositum" acting, and the power whereby it acts; as, for instance, fire heats through heat. So if we consider in the Father and the Son the power whereby they spirate the Holy Ghost, there is no mean, for this is one and the same power. But if we consider the persons themselves spirating, then, as the Holy Ghost proceeds both from the Father and from the Son, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father immediately, as from Him, and mediately, as from the Son; and thus He is said to proceed from the Father through the Son. So also did Abel proceed immediately from Adam, inasmuch as Adam was his father; and mediately, as Eve was his mother, who proceeded from Adam; although, indeed, this example of a material procession is inept to signify the immaterial procession of the divine persons.

Reply to Objection 2. If the Son received from the Father a numerically distinct power for the spiration of the Holy Ghost, it would follow that He would be a secondary and instrumental cause; and thus the Holy Ghost would proceed more from the Father than from the Son; whereas, on the contrary, the same spirative power belongs to the Father and to the Son; and therefore the Holy Ghost proceeds equally from both, although sometimes He is said to proceed principally or properly from the Father, because the Son has this power from the Father.


This is the error of the Scholastics, believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, rather than the Person of the Father.
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« Reply #644 on: May 19, 2011, 10:13:49 AM »

Christus resurrexit!
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
The Lord did not say that the Spirit proceeded from him, merely that It would be sent from the father through him. Here lies the mistake, because someone may have misread the text.

On the contrary, St. Augustine makes it clear that he was aware of what the Gospel said, then goes on to point out that it doesn't say "from the Father alone".

And he was wrong.

There's 3 different levels that "he was wrong" could be taken. On the most literal level, no he wasn't wrong: even in the Greek text John's gospel just says "from the Father", it doesn't add "alone".
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« Reply #645 on: May 19, 2011, 10:42:10 AM »

Quote from: ialmisry
This is the error of the Scholastics, believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, rather than the Person of the Father.

Can you elaborate on how you distinguish between 'essence' and 'person'? Aquinas seems to want to argue that persons can only be distinguished by opposite principles of origin within one Divine Essence in order for Essence to remain One, and that's why the Son and Spirit have to have opposite principles of origin in order to be distinct with one another. I'm guessing you don't agree with him though, and would do it in a different way.
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« Reply #646 on: May 19, 2011, 11:11:21 AM »

Christus resurrexit!
Quote from: ialmisry
This is the error of the Scholastics, believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, rather than the Person of the Father.

Can you elaborate on how you distinguish between 'essence' and 'person'? Aquinas seems to want to argue that persons can only be distinguished by opposite principles of origin within one Divine Essence in order for Essence to remain One, and that's why the Son and Spirit have to have opposite principles of origin in order to be distinct with one another. I'm guessing you don't agree with him though, and would do it in a different way.
Person is what is unique to an individual, essence what the individual shares with others of his kind.
St. John of Damascus is the antidote to Aquinas (though I heard St. John refered to as a Scholastic for the first time in my life by an Orthodox priest just two weeks ago).

St. John of Damascus.  Writings.
http://books.google.com/books?id=H9wlrya9lXYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=john+damascene+writings+substance&hl=en&ei=WTLVTbP2OoK2tgfy_PWKDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #647 on: May 19, 2011, 11:35:56 AM »

St. John Damascene as a scholastic? That is some odd taxonomy, yea.

I think Aquinas might use 'genera' to mean what you mean by 'essence' there. If I recall On Being and Essence correctly, essence is that by which a thing is intelligible as what it is. It may often share it with other things (e.g, Socrates shares the essence 'rational animal' with all other men) but I don't think it has to be the case (Nothing but God is the Divine Essence, but God still has an essence).

http://jtpaasch.blogspot.com/2008/12/aquinas-on-filioque.html

Maybe this sheds some further light on Aquinas' argument? It seems he distinguishes an act of production by efficient, material, and formal cause (or formal term). He says that they can't be distinguished by material cause because they don't have matter, and they can't be distinguished by formal cause because they both have the same form, which is the Divine Essence, so they have to be distinguished by efficient cause. Both come from the Father, so he concludes that in order for them to be distinguished by efficient cause one must come from the other? Am I reading that correctly? I'll look for the other two posts this author mentions he made previously, they might help.
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« Reply #648 on: May 19, 2011, 02:48:29 PM »

Christ is risen!
This is what I was looking for.

Reply to Objection 1. In every action two things are to be considered, the "suppositum" acting, and the power whereby it acts; as, for instance, fire heats through heat. So if we consider in the Father and the Son the power whereby they spirate the Holy Ghost, there is no mean, for this is one and the same power. But if we consider the persons themselves spirating, then, as the Holy Ghost proceeds both from the Father and from the Son, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father immediately, as from Him, and mediately, as from the Son; and thus He is said to proceed from the Father through the Son. So also did Abel proceed immediately from Adam, inasmuch as Adam was his father; and mediately, as Eve was his mother, who proceeded from Adam; although, indeed, this example of a material procession is inept to signify the immaterial procession of the divine persons.

Reply to Objection 2. If the Son received from the Father a numerically distinct power for the spiration of the Holy Ghost, it would follow that He would be a secondary and instrumental cause; and thus the Holy Ghost would proceed more from the Father than from the Son; whereas, on the contrary, the same spirative power belongs to the Father and to the Son; and therefore the Holy Ghost proceeds equally from both, although sometimes He is said to proceed principally or properly from the Father, because the Son has this power from the Father.


This is the error of the Scholastics, believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, rather than the Person of the Father.

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« Reply #649 on: May 19, 2011, 06:23:28 PM »

Quote from: isalmsry
This is the error of the Scholastics, believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, rather than the Person of the Father.
M-O-D-A-L-I-S-M

Which?
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« Reply #650 on: May 19, 2011, 06:52:50 PM »

Quote from: isalmsry
This is the error of the Scholastics, believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, rather than the Person of the Father.
M-O-D-A-L-I-S-M

Which?

The latter because all three persons must be simultaneously eternal.  You cannot rank the hypostases by functionality.  You may describe them only.  Otherwise you do the unthinkable...almost, since some are tempted to think it...which is to separate the Persons from the Essence.
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« Reply #651 on: May 19, 2011, 10:12:38 PM »

Christ is risen!
This is what I was looking for.

Reply to Objection 1. In every action two things are to be considered, the "suppositum" acting, and the power whereby it acts; as, for instance, fire heats through heat. So if we consider in the Father and the Son the power whereby they spirate the Holy Ghost, there is no mean, for this is one and the same power. But if we consider the persons themselves spirating, then, as the Holy Ghost proceeds both from the Father and from the Son, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father immediately, as from Him, and mediately, as from the Son; and thus He is said to proceed from the Father through the Son. So also did Abel proceed immediately from Adam, inasmuch as Adam was his father; and mediately, as Eve was his mother, who proceeded from Adam; although, indeed, this example of a material procession is inept to signify the immaterial procession of the divine persons.

Reply to Objection 2. If the Son received from the Father a numerically distinct power for the spiration of the Holy Ghost, it would follow that He would be a secondary and instrumental cause; and thus the Holy Ghost would proceed more from the Father than from the Son; whereas, on the contrary, the same spirative power belongs to the Father and to the Son; and therefore the Holy Ghost proceeds equally from both, although sometimes He is said to proceed principally or properly from the Father, because the Son has this power from the Father.


This is the error of the Scholastics, believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, rather than the Person of the Father.

M-O-D-A-L-I-S-M
Well, at least you can spell.  Now look it up in the dictionary, and find out what it actually means.
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« Reply #652 on: May 20, 2011, 09:07:24 AM »

Quote from: isalmsry
This is the error of the Scholastics, believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, rather than the Person of the Father.
M-O-D-A-L-I-S-M

Which?

The latter because all three persons must be simultaneously eternal.  You cannot rank the hypostases by functionality.  You may describe them only.  Otherwise you do the unthinkable...almost, since some are tempted to think it...which is to separate the Persons from the Essence.

Again.  You cannot rank order the Persons of the Trinity, meaning that however brief there can never be a moment when the Father IS and none of the others ARE.  The implications of that are that you cannot speak of begetting, filiation, and spiration in rank functionality [which is the essential definition of modalism].  The implications of that are that you cannot speak of the Persons apart from the Essence. 

So one can describe by generation, filiation and spiration but one cannot rank by them, nor can one separate them from the divine essence.

We know the Father is the source of ALL divinity.  We simply do not know how that is possible:

Three in One
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« Reply #653 on: May 20, 2011, 09:41:13 AM »

Christus resurrexit!
Quote from: isalmsry
This is the error of the Scholastics, believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Essence of the Godhead, rather than the Person of the Father.
M-O-D-A-L-I-S-M

Which?

The latter because all three persons must be simultaneously eternal.  You cannot rank the hypostases by functionality.  You may describe them only.  Otherwise you do the unthinkable...almost, since some are tempted to think it...which is to separate the Persons from the Essence.

Again.  You cannot rank order the Persons of the Trinity, meaning that however brief there can never be a moment when the Father IS and none of the others ARE.  The implications of that are that you cannot speak of begetting, filiation, and spiration in rank functionality [which is the essential definition of modalism].
 
No one is speaking of begetting, filiation and procession as a function.  They are source/origin, the only difference between the Persons of the Most Holy Trinity.  And since they are eternal, there isn't any wiff of modalism.

The implications of that are that you cannot speak of the Persons apart from the Essence.

Who is?  Btw, it is impossible in the way that you imply.

So one can describe by generation, filiation and spiration but one cannot rank by them, nor can one separate them from the divine essence.
God Himself described generation, filiation and procession, so we, unlike the fiioquists, take His Word on it.

And filioque, and in particular the defense of it, ranks the Persons by His source.

We know the Father is the source of ALL divinity.  We simply do not know how that is possible:

Three in One
1X1X1=1
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« Reply #654 on: May 20, 2011, 09:46:01 AM »


And filioque, and in particular the defense of it, ranks the Persons by His source.


The Filioque is the description of a set of relationships.  There is no ranking at all.  That ranking comes out of the east, not the west.  The east has always been guilty of what they accuse the west of doing.  If that were not the case the "from the Father...alone" would be seen as the error that it is.

M.
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« Reply #655 on: May 20, 2011, 09:53:52 AM »


And filioque, and in particular the defense of it, ranks the Persons by His source.


The Filioque is the description of a set of relationships.  There is no ranking at all. 

Yes, it makes the Spirit a third rate God.

That ranking comes out of the east, not the west. 
No, it came out of how the West muddled the teaching of the East, whence the Church came.

The east has always been guilty of what they accuse the west of doing.
Yeah, like Caesaropapsim  Roll Eyes.  It was the Germanic Kings and Emperors who ordered filioque inserted.

If that were not the case the "from the Father...alone" would be seen as the error that it is.
ekporeuomai solves that problem.
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« Reply #656 on: May 20, 2011, 10:03:56 AM »

Yes, it makes the Spirit a third rate God.

By your twisted logic, the "proceeds from the Father alone" doctrine makes God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit second rate.
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« Reply #657 on: May 20, 2011, 10:09:28 AM »


And filioque, and in particular the defense of it, ranks the Persons by His source.


The Filioque is the description of a set of relationships.  There is no ranking at all.

Yes, it makes the Spirit a third rate God.


As I said: there is no ranking in Filioque.  

Filioque indicates a set of un-ranked intra-relationships.

It is the east that ranks making first, second and third tiers of the Persons based upon functionality.

Rank ordering.  It's in the dictionary not too far off from modalism...Since you seemed so eager to send me off there.
 
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« Reply #658 on: May 20, 2011, 10:38:52 AM »

Christus resurrexit!
Yes, it makes the Spirit a third rate God.

By your twisted logic, the "proceeds from the Father alone" doctrine makes God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit second rate.
No, even your Vatican has finally admitted that the Lord's own word "ekporeuomai" as recorded by the Evangelist in the Gospel, means "proceeds from the Father alone."  That your poor translations have twisted your theology is not His fault.
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« Reply #659 on: May 20, 2011, 10:53:49 AM »

Yes, it makes the Spirit a third rate God.
Anyone else think that drawing such sharp distinctions between the Persons of the Trinity like this and saying things like "third rate God" sounds like polytheism?
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« Reply #660 on: May 20, 2011, 10:55:39 AM »

Well this went sour fast   Undecided

I don't know about the translation from the passage in general, and perhaps it does say "Proceeds from the Father alone", but the word "Ekporeuomai" in itself just means "To proceed out of", not "to proceed out of alone".

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/ekporeuomai.html

http://studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1607


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« Reply #661 on: May 20, 2011, 11:04:57 AM »

Don't worry, someone will win the argument any minute now.
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« Reply #662 on: May 20, 2011, 11:08:13 AM »

Don't worry, someone will win the argument any minute now.

What argument?   Cool
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« Reply #663 on: May 20, 2011, 11:22:36 AM »

God Himself described generation, filiation and procession, so we, unlike the fiioquists, take His Word on it.

Catholics (in communion with Rome) take His Word on it too ... as I think you really know.
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« Reply #664 on: May 20, 2011, 12:20:15 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Yes, it makes the Spirit a third rate God.

By your twisted logic, the "proceeds from the Father alone" doctrine makes God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit second rate.
No, even your Vatican has finally admitted that the Lord's own word "ekporeuomai" as recorded by the Evangelist in the Gospel, means "proceeds from the Father alone."  That your poor translations have twisted your theology is not His fault.

Do you have that chart that our friend ignatius posted on a thread here indicating RC teaching on the subject? It looked like late 19th century early 20th and it was a sketch of the teaching of the Godhead illustrating the Filioque as this relationship:

Father <---------> Son
                |
           Holy Spirit

It was interesting to see the RC teaching presented this way, especially when I have heard many say this was never their church's teaching. :-/

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« Reply #665 on: May 20, 2011, 01:11:41 PM »

I think it's dangerous to take a question of such subtlety (either way you view it) out of the realm of language and put it in to pictures, but this image is often used in the west and I think I'd prefer it to that diagram (with reservations, nonetheless):

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« Reply #666 on: May 20, 2011, 01:19:04 PM »

Well this went sour fast   Undecided

I don't know about the translation from the passage in general, and perhaps it does say "Proceeds from the Father alone", but the word "Ekporeuomai" in itself just means "To proceed out of", not "to proceed out of alone".

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/ekporeuomai.html

http://studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1607

It does not mean "alone", but the type of procession expressed by it only comes from the Father.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #667 on: May 20, 2011, 02:12:41 PM »

Right but what's being argued, I thought, was that Scripture explicitly says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and does not proceed from the Son.
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« Reply #668 on: May 20, 2011, 06:47:34 PM »

Not only that but it strobes me into some kind of epileptic twitch!!....Wow   Shocked Shocked Shocked

I think it's dangerous to take a question of such subtlety (either way you view it) out of the realm of language and put it in to pictures, but this image is often used in the west and I think I'd prefer it to that diagram (with reservations, nonetheless):


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« Reply #669 on: May 20, 2011, 06:59:10 PM »

Never seen that one before. But I've seen this RC one:

Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God
Father is not Son, Son is not Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit is not Father
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« Reply #670 on: May 20, 2011, 09:23:05 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Well this went sour fast   Undecided

I don't know about the translation from the passage in general, and perhaps it does say "Proceeds from the Father alone", but the word "Ekporeuomai" in itself just means "To proceed out of", not "to proceed out of alone".

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/ekporeuomai.html

http://studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1607
Not quite: it means to proceed (actually issue) out of its source.

Now, if you want to admit that filioque teaches that the Spirit proceeds out of the Son as His source, feel free, but your Vatican is now denying that it believes or teaches that.
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« Reply #671 on: May 20, 2011, 09:31:54 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
God Himself described generation, filiation and procession, so we, unlike the fiioquists, take His Word on it.

Catholics (in communion with Rome) take His Word on it too ... as I think you really know.
Yes, I know we do.

which is why we never accepted the filioque.

The Scholastics in communion with the Vatican thought they could "clarify" things, and made the mess that filioque has made of their theology.
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« Reply #672 on: May 20, 2011, 09:34:36 PM »

Right but what's being argued, I thought, was that Scripture explicitly says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and does not proceed from the Son.

I think this is the point of emphasis of the argument.

Quote
Right but what's being argued, I thought, was that Scripture explicitly says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and does not proceed from the Son.
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« Reply #673 on: May 20, 2011, 09:40:53 PM »

Right but what's being argued, I thought, was that Scripture explicitly says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and does not proceed from the Son.

I think this is the point of emphasis of the argument.

Quote
Right but what's being argued, I thought, was that Scripture explicitly says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and does not proceed from the Son.

Just to back up a little bit here, you do agree that John 15:26 doesn't say "alone", right?
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« Reply #674 on: May 20, 2011, 09:44:18 PM »

God Himself described generation, filiation and procession, so we, unlike the filioquists, take His Word on it.

Catholics (in communion with Rome) take His Word on it too ... as I think you really know.

Clearly you do know this, since you said:

No, even your Vatican has finally admitted that the Lord's own word "ekporeuomai" as recorded by the Evangelist in the Gospel, means "proceeds from the Father alone."  That your poor translations have twisted your theology is not His fault.

(I don't  know what you mean by "finally", but I won't press you on that.)
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