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Author Topic: Why Filioque Is a Christological Error  (Read 34381 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #315 on: April 29, 2011, 03:08:57 PM »

However Todd, some of your extereme/nearly-Buddhist views might even be considered too much for the Eastern Orthodox.
That's a new one.  How many of St. Maximos' writings have you read?
What does that have to do with har far you go into transforming God in the ultimate zero and changing theosis into Nirvana?
The fact that God is beyond being, a belief held by St. Maximos (and St. Gregory Palamas, and others), is not Buddhist my dear friend, it is Christian.
I didin't say that that teaching was Buddhist. However, your incarnation of that teaching is.
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« Reply #316 on: April 29, 2011, 03:09:51 PM »

However Todd, some of your extereme/nearly-Buddhist views might even be considered too much for the Eastern Orthodox.
That's a new one.  How many of St. Maximos' writings have you read?
What does that have to do with har far you go into transforming God in the ultimate zero and changing theosis into Nirvana?
The fact that God is beyond being, a belief held by St. Maximos (and St. Gregory Palamas, and others), is not Buddhist my dear friend, it is Christian.
I didin't say that that teaching was Buddhist. However, your incarnation of that teaching is.
Prove it.
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« Reply #317 on: April 29, 2011, 03:10:57 PM »

However Todd, some of your extereme/nearly-Buddhist views might even be considered too much for the Eastern Orthodox.
That's a new one.  How many of St. Maximos' writings have you read?
What does that have to do with har far you go into transforming God in the ultimate zero and changing theosis into Nirvana?
The fact that God is beyond being, a belief held by St. Maximos (and St. Gregory Palamas, and others), is not Buddhist my dear friend, it is Christian.
I didin't say that that teaching was Buddhist. However, your incarnation of that teaching is.
Prove it.
Oh geesh, now I have to dig up our last dialogue, where you didn't even understand term essence, and made ridiculous statements about God transcending God....
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« Reply #318 on: April 29, 2011, 03:11:56 PM »

However Todd, some of your extereme/nearly-Buddhist views might even be considered too much for the Eastern Orthodox.
That's a new one.  How many of St. Maximos' writings have you read?
What does that have to do with har far you go into transforming God in the ultimate zero and changing theosis into Nirvana?
The fact that God is beyond being, a belief held by St. Maximos (and St. Gregory Palamas, and others), is not Buddhist my dear friend, it is Christian.
I didin't say that that teaching was Buddhist. However, your incarnation of that teaching is.
Prove it.
Oh geesh, now I have to dig up our last dialogue, where you didn't even understand term essence, and made ridiculous statements about God transcending God....
I am more than willing to debate you on the issue.  Prove it.
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« Reply #319 on: April 29, 2011, 03:12:59 PM »

However Todd, some of your extereme/nearly-Buddhist views might even be considered too much for the Eastern Orthodox.
That's a new one.  How many of St. Maximos' writings have you read?
What does that have to do with har far you go into transforming God in the ultimate zero and changing theosis into Nirvana?
The fact that God is beyond being, a belief held by St. Maximos (and St. Gregory Palamas, and others), is not Buddhist my dear friend, it is Christian.
I didin't say that that teaching was Buddhist. However, your incarnation of that teaching is.
Prove it.
Oh geesh, now I have to dig up our last dialogue, where you didn't even understand term essence, and made ridiculous statements about God transcending God....
I am more than willing to debate you on the issue.  Prove it.
Ok. When I get home we can go through rabbit hole of your heretical beliefs.
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« Reply #320 on: April 29, 2011, 03:13:10 PM »

where you didn't even understand term essence . . .
Just because I reject the medieval Scholastic view of essence you take that to mean that I am a Buddhist.  That is laughable.
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« Reply #321 on: April 29, 2011, 03:14:26 PM »

where you didn't even understand term essence . . .
Just because I reject the medieval Scholastic view of essence you take that to mean that I am a Buddhist.  That is laughable.
No, because you reject the meaning of the word in general, and becaue you hold Buddhist beliefs.
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« Reply #322 on: April 29, 2011, 03:16:38 PM »

I base my views on the transcendence and unknowableness of the divine essence on the writings of the Cappadocians, St. Maximos, and St. Gregory Palamas.  Have you read the "Life of Moses" or the "Homilies on Ecclesiastes" by St. Gregory of Nyssa?  Have you read the "Capita Physica" of St. Gregory Palamas, or any of the "Centuries" by St. Maximos?
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"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
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« Reply #323 on: April 29, 2011, 03:18:53 PM »

where you didn't even understand term essence . . .
Just because I reject the medieval Scholastic view of essence you take that to mean that I am a Buddhist.  That is laughable.
No, because you reject the meaning of the word in general, and becaue you hold Buddhist beliefs.
There is nothing Buddhist in my position, I simply agree with St. Gregory Palamas who said:  ". . . if God is nature, other things are not nature; but if every other thing is nature, He is not a nature, just as He is not a being if all other things are beings.  And if He is a being, then all other things are not beings."

The problem you have with what I have said in the past may be founded upon the fact that you have not read what I have read, or studied the Eastern Fathers in any depth.
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« Reply #324 on: April 29, 2011, 03:19:35 PM »

I base my views on the transcendence and unknowableness of the divine essence on the writings of the Cappadocians, St. Maximos, and St. Gregory Palamas.  Have you read the "Life of Moses" or the "Homilies on Ecclesiastes" by St. Gregory of Nyssa?  Have you read the "Capita Physica" of St. Gregory Palamas, or any of the "Centuries" by St. Maximos?
I have read passages from Palamas and Maximos. No I have not read them as much as you have. That being said, I have read articles on the Fathers regarding the essence/engergies distinction, and I don't think that Palamas teaches what the Fathers do. I think he starts with their view and then runs into a strange and extreme conclusion.
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« Reply #325 on: April 29, 2011, 03:20:44 PM »

I base my views on the transcendence and unknowableness of the divine essence on the writings of the Cappadocians, St. Maximos, and St. Gregory Palamas.  Have you read the "Life of Moses" or the "Homilies on Ecclesiastes" by St. Gregory of Nyssa?  Have you read the "Capita Physica" of St. Gregory Palamas, or any of the "Centuries" by St. Maximos?
I have read passages from Palamas and Maximos. No I have not read them as much as you have. That being said, I have read articles on the Fathers regarding the essence/engergies distinction, and I don't think that Palamas teaches what the Fathers do. I think he starts with their view and then runs into a strange and extreme conclusion.
Great, now try reading their texts as whole books, and not merely excerpts.  No wonder you have a distorted view of their teaching.
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« Reply #326 on: April 29, 2011, 03:21:24 PM »

where you didn't even understand term essence . . .
Just because I reject the medieval Scholastic view of essence you take that to mean that I am a Buddhist.  That is laughable.
No, because you reject the meaning of the word in general, and becaue you hold Buddhist beliefs.
There is nothing Buddhist in my position, I simply agree with St. Gregory Palamas who said:  ". . . if God is nature, other things are not nature; but if every other thing is nature, He is not a nature, just as He is not a being if all other things are beings.  And if He is a being, then all other things are not beings."

The problem you have with what I have said in the past may be founded upon the fact that you have not read what I have read, or studied the Eastern Fathers in any depth.
LOL @ the bold part. You should hear yourself.

As for Palamas, he is simply wrong. God can be being in a different way then we are. Latin propose an analogical application of the term. This protects us from making God merely the highest being. But it also protects us from falling into your Buddhist views.
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« Reply #327 on: April 29, 2011, 03:21:53 PM »

I base my views on the transcendence and unknowableness of the divine essence on the writings of the Cappadocians, St. Maximos, and St. Gregory Palamas.  Have you read the "Life of Moses" or the "Homilies on Ecclesiastes" by St. Gregory of Nyssa?  Have you read the "Capita Physica" of St. Gregory Palamas, or any of the "Centuries" by St. Maximos?
I have read passages from Palamas and Maximos. No I have not read them as much as you have. That being said, I have read articles on the Fathers regarding the essence/engergies distinction, and I don't think that Palamas teaches what the Fathers do. I think he starts with their view and then runs into a strange and extreme conclusion.
Back to your problems with St. Gregory Palamas.  Where is Fr. Deacon Lance when I need him?
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« Reply #328 on: April 29, 2011, 03:23:18 PM »

where you didn't even understand term essence . . .
Just because I reject the medieval Scholastic view of essence you take that to mean that I am a Buddhist.  That is laughable.
No, because you reject the meaning of the word in general, and becaue you hold Buddhist beliefs.
There is nothing Buddhist in my position, I simply agree with St. Gregory Palamas who said:  ". . . if God is nature, other things are not nature; but if every other thing is nature, He is not a nature, just as He is not a being if all other things are beings.  And if He is a being, then all other things are not beings."

The problem you have with what I have said in the past may be founded upon the fact that you have not read what I have read, or studied the Eastern Fathers in any depth.
LOL @ the bold part. You should hear yourself.

As for Palamas, he is simply wrong. God can be being in a different way then we are. Latin propose an analogical application of the term. This protects us from making God merely the highest being. But it also protects us from falling into your Buddhist views.
Sorry, but I am simply stating a fact.  I have read whole treatises by these Fathers and you have admitted that you have not.  How can you make any intelligent judgment when you are ignorant of what these Fathers have said?
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« Reply #329 on: April 29, 2011, 03:25:39 PM »

where you didn't even understand term essence . . .
Just because I reject the medieval Scholastic view of essence you take that to mean that I am a Buddhist.  That is laughable.
No, because you reject the meaning of the word in general, and becaue you hold Buddhist beliefs.
There is nothing Buddhist in my position, I simply agree with St. Gregory Palamas who said:  ". . . if God is nature, other things are not nature; but if every other thing is nature, He is not a nature, just as He is not a being if all other things are beings.  And if He is a being, then all other things are not beings."

The problem you have with what I have said in the past may be founded upon the fact that you have not read what I have read, or studied the Eastern Fathers in any depth.
LOL @ the bold part. You should hear yourself.

As for Palamas, he is simply wrong. God can be being in a different way then we are. Latin propose an analogical application of the term. This protects us from making God merely the highest being. But it also protects us from falling into your Buddhist views.
Sorry, but I am simply stating a fact.  I have read whole treatises by these Fathers and you have admitted that you have not.  How can you make any intelligent judgment when you are ignorant of what these Fathers have said?
Since I have only read some of what they say, then I cannot come to intelligent conclusions? I must read the entire corpus of their works in order to undestand them? Have you read the entire Summa Theologiae, Summa Contra Gentiles, On being and Essence, and all of Aquinas other works? And yet you reject his orthodox thinking? Did you do so unintelligently because you have not read it all? Have you read everything written by St. Augustine?
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« Reply #330 on: April 29, 2011, 03:25:50 PM »

Papist,

Do you believe that you can know another man's essence?  Do you know what St. Basil said about the possibility of knowing the essence of another human being?
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« Reply #331 on: April 29, 2011, 03:27:00 PM »

Papist,

Do you believe that you can know another man's essence?  Do you know what St. Basil said about the possibility of knowing the essence of another human being?
Ok, you trying to set me up, so tell me. What did he say? BTW, Latins don't believe we can comprehend God's essence. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand us.
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« Reply #332 on: April 29, 2011, 03:28:32 PM »

where you didn't even understand term essence . . .
Just because I reject the medieval Scholastic view of essence you take that to mean that I am a Buddhist.  That is laughable.
No, because you reject the meaning of the word in general, and becaue you hold Buddhist beliefs.
There is nothing Buddhist in my position, I simply agree with St. Gregory Palamas who said:  ". . . if God is nature, other things are not nature; but if every other thing is nature, He is not a nature, just as He is not a being if all other things are beings.  And if He is a being, then all other things are not beings."

The problem you have with what I have said in the past may be founded upon the fact that you have not read what I have read, or studied the Eastern Fathers in any depth.
LOL @ the bold part. You should hear yourself.

As for Palamas, he is simply wrong. God can be being in a different way then we are. Latin propose an analogical application of the term. This protects us from making God merely the highest being. But it also protects us from falling into your Buddhist views.
Sorry, but I am simply stating a fact.  I have read whole treatises by these Fathers and you have admitted that you have not.  How can you make any intelligent judgment when you are ignorant of what these Fathers have said?
Since I have only read some of what they say, then I cannot come to intelligent conclusions? I must read the entire corpus of their works in order to undestand them? Have you read the entire Summa Theologiae, Summa Contra Gentiles, On being and Essence, and all of Aquinas other works? And yet you reject his orthodox thinking? Did you do so unintelligently because you have not read it all? Have you read everything written by St. Augustine?
If you have only read florilegia, then yes, I would say that you cannot speak about the beliefs of the Eastern Fathers in any kind of coherent fashion.  Just look at the text that Aquinas wrote "Against the Greeks," he has no grasp of their actual teaching, and sadly for him many of his citations are now known to be spurious, which caused his views on the Greek Fathers to be even more distorted than they would have been otherwise.
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« Reply #333 on: April 29, 2011, 03:29:13 PM »

where you didn't even understand term essence . . .
Just because I reject the medieval Scholastic view of essence you take that to mean that I am a Buddhist.  That is laughable.
No, because you reject the meaning of the word in general, and becaue you hold Buddhist beliefs.
There is nothing Buddhist in my position, I simply agree with St. Gregory Palamas who said:  ". . . if God is nature, other things are not nature; but if every other thing is nature, He is not a nature, just as He is not a being if all other things are beings.  And if He is a being, then all other things are not beings."

The problem you have with what I have said in the past may be founded upon the fact that you have not read what I have read, or studied the Eastern Fathers in any depth.
LOL @ the bold part. You should hear yourself.

As for Palamas, he is simply wrong. God can be being in a different way then we are. Latin propose an analogical application of the term. This protects us from making God merely the highest being. But it also protects us from falling into your Buddhist views.
Sorry, but I am simply stating a fact.  I have read whole treatises by these Fathers and you have admitted that you have not.  How can you make any intelligent judgment when you are ignorant of what these Fathers have said?
Since I have only read some of what they say, then I cannot come to intelligent conclusions? I must read the entire corpus of their works in order to undestand them? Have you read the entire Summa Theologiae, Summa Contra Gentiles, On being and Essence, and all of Aquinas other works? And yet you reject his orthodox thinking? Did you do so unintelligently because you have not read it all? Have you read everything written by St. Augustine?
If you have only read florilegia, then yes, I would say that you cannot speak in about their beliefs in any kind of coherent fashion.  Just look at the text that Aquinas wrote "Against the Greeks," he has no grasp of their actual teaching, and sadly for him many of his citations are now known to be spurious, which caused his views on the Greek Fathers to be even more distorted than they would have been otherwise.
So you have read all of Aquinas works then?
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« Reply #334 on: April 29, 2011, 03:33:07 PM »

Papist,

Do you believe that you can know another man's essence?  Do you know what St. Basil said about the possibility of knowing the essence of another human being?
Ok, you trying to set me up, so tell me. What did he say? BTW, Latins don't believe we can comprehend God's essence. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand us.
Well I am sure you would find his position to be Buddhist.  Cheesy  Because he says it is not possible to know a man's nature.  We can know a man's activities, which reveal who he is, but his nature is not knowable (St. Basil, Letter 235).
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"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
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« Reply #335 on: April 29, 2011, 03:38:01 PM »

where you didn't even understand term essence . . .
Just because I reject the medieval Scholastic view of essence you take that to mean that I am a Buddhist.  That is laughable.
No, because you reject the meaning of the word in general, and becaue you hold Buddhist beliefs.
There is nothing Buddhist in my position, I simply agree with St. Gregory Palamas who said:  ". . . if God is nature, other things are not nature; but if every other thing is nature, He is not a nature, just as He is not a being if all other things are beings.  And if He is a being, then all other things are not beings."

The problem you have with what I have said in the past may be founded upon the fact that you have not read what I have read, or studied the Eastern Fathers in any depth.
LOL @ the bold part. You should hear yourself.

As for Palamas, he is simply wrong. God can be being in a different way then we are. Latin propose an analogical application of the term. This protects us from making God merely the highest being. But it also protects us from falling into your Buddhist views.
Sorry, but I am simply stating a fact.  I have read whole treatises by these Fathers and you have admitted that you have not.  How can you make any intelligent judgment when you are ignorant of what these Fathers have said?
Since I have only read some of what they say, then I cannot come to intelligent conclusions? I must read the entire corpus of their works in order to undestand them? Have you read the entire Summa Theologiae, Summa Contra Gentiles, On being and Essence, and all of Aquinas other works? And yet you reject his orthodox thinking? Did you do so unintelligently because you have not read it all? Have you read everything written by St. Augustine?
If you have only read florilegia, then yes, I would say that you cannot speak in about their beliefs in any kind of coherent fashion.  Just look at the text that Aquinas wrote "Against the Greeks," he has no grasp of their actual teaching, and sadly for him many of his citations are now known to be spurious, which caused his views on the Greek Fathers to be even more distorted than they would have been otherwise.
So you have read all of Aquinas works then?
I have never said that!  Be that as it may, I have read Parts 1 and 3 of the Summa (and some of the Supplement too), and his text Questiones Disputatae de Veritate, and a couple of his homilies (on Galatians and Ephesians), and Book IV of his Summa Contra Gentiles, and I read all of these things back in the 1980s.   I also read his treatise On Being and Essence in the late 1990s when I was studying philosophy at SFSU, but I admit that I have not looked at any of Aquinas' writings in many years.

P.S. - I also read the section of the Summa (from the first part of the second part) on Law, and probably other sections that I just do not remember at the moment.

P.P.S. - The first time I read anything by Aquinas was when I was around 13 years old, and I found a little green book which contained parts of the sections of the Summa on the incarnation.  I was still Methodist at the time.
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« Reply #336 on: April 29, 2011, 03:41:44 PM »

As far as Augustine is concerned, I have read a lot of his texts, because I had to in a class that I took at Franciscan University.  The only text of his that impressed me was his Enarrationes in Psalmos, because I like his identification of Christ and the Church as one mystical man.
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« Reply #337 on: April 29, 2011, 03:47:41 PM »

Wow, I guess I missed a lot in the last two hours.  Shocked

Anyhow, now that I'm back at my computer I have a question for Papist (well, especially Papist, although others might like to respond as well): What do you think of Fr. Richard Neuhauss, of blessed memory, saying of Catholics and Orthodox that "the only thing lacking for full communion is full communion"?
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« Reply #338 on: April 29, 2011, 04:41:28 PM »

I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy  It is time for you to come to terms with the fact that the Catholic Church is composed of 23 self-governing Churches, all with their own theology, spirituality, and liturgy.
I guess the part that confuses me about your choice to be a Melkite Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that, while you continue to be in full communion with Rome, you put no value in the teachings of Rome or the Roman Church in general. If you ignore all the western councils and deny them ecumenical status within the Universal Church, wouldn't being Eastern Orthodox and enjoying full autocephaly be a more honest path for you? I didn't think Catholics (regardless of their rite) were allowed to deny Ecumenical Councils and yet remain in full communion.
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« Reply #339 on: April 29, 2011, 04:47:25 PM »

I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy  It is time for you to come to terms with the fact that the Catholic Church is composed of 23 self-governing Churches, all with their own theology, spirituality, and liturgy.
I guess the part that confuses me about your choice to be a Melkite Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that, while you continue to be in full communion with Rome, you put no value in the teachings of Rome or the Roman Church in general. If you ignore all the western councils and deny them ecumenical status within the Universal Church, wouldn't being Eastern Orthodox and enjoying full autocephaly be a more honest path for you? I didn't think Catholics (regardless of their rite) were allowed to deny Ecumenical Councils and yet remain in full communion.
I put value on the teachings of the Melkite Catholic Church.  Normally Roman Catholics, and I say this as a former Roman Catholic, tend to identify being Catholic with being Latin.  I used to do that, but I was cured of that form of spiritual and theological myopia by becoming Eastern Catholic.
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« Reply #340 on: April 29, 2011, 04:51:48 PM »

I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy  It is time for you to come to terms with the fact that the Catholic Church is composed of 23 self-governing Churches, all with their own theology, spirituality, and liturgy.
I guess the part that confuses me about your choice to be a Melkite Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that, while you continue to be in full communion with Rome, you put no value in the teachings of Rome or the Roman Church in general. If you ignore all the western councils and deny them ecumenical status within the Universal Church, wouldn't being Eastern Orthodox and enjoying full autocephaly be a more honest path for you? I didn't think Catholics (regardless of their rite) were allowed to deny Ecumenical Councils and yet remain in full communion.
I put value on the teachings of the Melkite Catholic Church.  Normally Roman Catholics, and I say this as a former Roman Catholic, tend to identify being Catholic with being Latin.  I used to do that, but I was cured of that form of spiritual and theological myopia by becoming Eastern Catholic.
So if this is the normal position of Eastern Catholics then what, in the Eastern Catholic view, is the purpose/benefit of being in full communion with Rome rather than just being autocephalous like the Eastern Orthodox Churches?
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« Reply #341 on: April 29, 2011, 04:58:21 PM »

I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy  It is time for you to come to terms with the fact that the Catholic Church is composed of 23 self-governing Churches, all with their own theology, spirituality, and liturgy.
I guess the part that confuses me about your choice to be a Melkite Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that, while you continue to be in full communion with Rome, you put no value in the teachings of Rome or the Roman Church in general. If you ignore all the western councils and deny them ecumenical status within the Universal Church, wouldn't being Eastern Orthodox and enjoying full autocephaly be a more honest path for you? I didn't think Catholics (regardless of their rite) were allowed to deny Ecumenical Councils and yet remain in full communion.
I put value on the teachings of the Melkite Catholic Church.  Normally Roman Catholics, and I say this as a former Roman Catholic, tend to identify being Catholic with being Latin.  I used to do that, but I was cured of that form of spiritual and theological myopia by becoming Eastern Catholic.
So if this is the normal position of Eastern Catholics then what, in the Eastern Catholic view, is the purpose/benefit of being in full communion with Rome rather than just being autocephalous like the Eastern Orthodox Churches?
It gives us access to really pretty Churches in Rome.

Why would anyone want to reduce communion between the various Churches to some utilitarian end?

What do I personally get out of being in communion with the local Melkite Church? 

These types of questions seem rather odd to me.   

But I will say this, the goal of the spiritual life is communion with God and with your fellow man, i.e., it is to be in Christ, and nothing more.  It is for me to live a life patterned on His life through grace (theomimesis), and to have Him live His life through me, with me, and in me.
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« Reply #342 on: April 29, 2011, 05:02:10 PM »

I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy  It is time for you to come to terms with the fact that the Catholic Church is composed of 23 self-governing Churches, all with their own theology, spirituality, and liturgy.
I guess the part that confuses me about your choice to be a Melkite Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that, while you continue to be in full communion with Rome, you put no value in the teachings of Rome or the Roman Church in general. If you ignore all the western councils and deny them ecumenical status within the Universal Church, wouldn't being Eastern Orthodox and enjoying full autocephaly be a more honest path for you? I didn't think Catholics (regardless of their rite) were allowed to deny Ecumenical Councils and yet remain in full communion.
I put value on the teachings of the Melkite Catholic Church.  Normally Roman Catholics, and I say this as a former Roman Catholic, tend to identify being Catholic with being Latin.  I used to do that, but I was cured of that form of spiritual and theological myopia by becoming Eastern Catholic.
So if this is the normal position of Eastern Catholics then what, in the Eastern Catholic view, is the purpose/benefit of being in full communion with Rome rather than just being autocephalous like the Eastern Orthodox Churches?
It gives us access to really pretty Churches in Rome.

Why would anyone want to reduce communion between the various Churches to some utilitarian end?

What do I personally get out of being in communion with the local Melkite Church? 

These types of questions seem rather odd to me.   

But I will say this, the goal of the spiritual life is communion with God and with your fellow man, i.e., it is to be in Christ, and nothing more.  It is to live His life, and to have Him live His life through me.

I guess I get what you are saying, it's just that your theological views sound more in line with Eastern Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism, but then again I never knew that the Eastern Catholic Churches are allowed to outright reject Ecumenical Councils or are free to consider councils local that the Latin Church considers Ecumenical. Are you also free to reject Latin dogmas and Papal ex cathedra pronouncements without a loss of communion with Rome?
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« Reply #343 on: April 29, 2011, 05:03:37 PM »

I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy  It is time for you to come to terms with the fact that the Catholic Church is composed of 23 self-governing Churches, all with their own theology, spirituality, and liturgy.
I guess the part that confuses me about your choice to be a Melkite Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that, while you continue to be in full communion with Rome, you put no value in the teachings of Rome or the Roman Church in general. If you ignore all the western councils and deny them ecumenical status within the Universal Church, wouldn't being Eastern Orthodox and enjoying full autocephaly be a more honest path for you? I didn't think Catholics (regardless of their rite) were allowed to deny Ecumenical Councils and yet remain in full communion.
I put value on the teachings of the Melkite Catholic Church.  Normally Roman Catholics, and I say this as a former Roman Catholic, tend to identify being Catholic with being Latin.  I used to do that, but I was cured of that form of spiritual and theological myopia by becoming Eastern Catholic.
So if this is the normal position of Eastern Catholics then what, in the Eastern Catholic view, is the purpose/benefit of being in full communion with Rome rather than just being autocephalous like the Eastern Orthodox Churches?
It gives us access to really pretty Churches in Rome.

Why would anyone want to reduce communion between the various Churches to some utilitarian end?

What do I personally get out of being in communion with the local Melkite Church? 

These types of questions seem rather odd to me.   

But I will say this, the goal of the spiritual life is communion with God and with your fellow man, i.e., it is to be in Christ, and nothing more.  It is to live His life, and to have Him live His life through me.

I guess I get what you are saying, it's just that your theological views sound more in line with Eastern Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism, but then again I never knew that the Eastern Catholic Churches are allowed to outright reject Ecumenical Councils or are free to consider councils local that the Latin Church considers Ecumenical. Are you also free to reject Latin dogmas and Papal ex cathedra pronouncements without a loss of communion with Rome?
What Roman Catholics need to recognize is that Eastern Orthodoxy is Catholic too.  Catholicism is bigger than the Latin Church's tradition.
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« Reply #344 on: April 29, 2011, 05:06:45 PM »

Are you also free to reject Latin dogmas and Papal ex cathedra pronouncements without a loss of communion with Rome?
I am not Latin, so I do not believe in "Latin" dogmas.  Anything that is peculiar to the Latin Church is merely theologoumena.
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« Reply #345 on: April 29, 2011, 05:31:39 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Wow, I guess I missed a lot in the last two hours.  Shocked

Anyhow, now that I'm back at my computer I have a question for Papist (well, especially Papist, although others might like to respond as well): What do you think of Fr. Richard Neuhauss, of blessed memory, saying of Catholics and Orthodox that "the only thing lacking for full communion is full communion"?
With the Vatican?
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« Reply #346 on: April 29, 2011, 06:04:19 PM »

I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy  It is time for you to come to terms with the fact that the Catholic Church is composed of 23 self-governing Churches, all with their own theology, spirituality, and liturgy.
I guess the part that confuses me about your choice to be a Melkite Catholic rather than Eastern Orthodox is that, while you continue to be in full communion with Rome, you put no value in the teachings of Rome or the Roman Church in general. If you ignore all the western councils and deny them ecumenical status within the Universal Church, wouldn't being Eastern Orthodox and enjoying full autocephaly be a more honest path for you? I didn't think Catholics (regardless of their rite) were allowed to deny Ecumenical Councils and yet remain in full communion.
I put value on the teachings of the Melkite Catholic Church.  Normally Roman Catholics, and I say this as a former Roman Catholic, tend to identify being Catholic with being Latin.  I used to do that, but I was cured of that form of spiritual and theological myopia by becoming Eastern Catholic.
So if this is the normal position of Eastern Catholics then what, in the Eastern Catholic view, is the purpose/benefit of being in full communion with Rome rather than just being autocephalous like the Eastern Orthodox Churches?
It gives us access to really pretty Churches in Rome.

Why would anyone want to reduce communion between the various Churches to some utilitarian end?

What do I personally get out of being in communion with the local Melkite Church? 

These types of questions seem rather odd to me.   

But I will say this, the goal of the spiritual life is communion with God and with your fellow man, i.e., it is to be in Christ, and nothing more.  It is to live His life, and to have Him live His life through me.

I guess I get what you are saying, it's just that your theological views sound more in line with Eastern Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism, but then again I never knew that the Eastern Catholic Churches are allowed to outright reject Ecumenical Councils or are free to consider councils local that the Latin Church considers Ecumenical. Are you also free to reject Latin dogmas and Papal ex cathedra pronouncements without a loss of communion with Rome?

http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG1199.HTM

Paying particular attention to Title 1

However when you take Title 1 in concert with the various documents on local catechisms there is a great deal of leeway for a particular Church to catechize their children and adults in their own unique traditions.
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« Reply #347 on: April 29, 2011, 06:09:20 PM »

With the Vatican?

Anyhow, now that I'm back at my computer I have a question for Papist (well, especially Papist, although others might like to respond as well): What do you think of Fr. Richard Neuhauss, of blessed memory, saying of Catholics and Orthodox that "the only thing lacking for full communion is full communion"?
(emphasis added)

See: http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/zneubene.htm
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« Reply #348 on: April 29, 2011, 07:09:46 PM »

Todd,
I, along with all of the Latins that I spend time with, accept and profess that the filioque is dogmatic, and binding, along with the doctrines of purgatory, the immaculate conception, original sin, papal primacy, etc. I believe and profess these things, both in thought, and in the Liturgy. Is the law of prayer not the law of faith?
I am sure that you and your friends do just that, but Rome has wavered in recent years both with its "Clarification on the Filioque," and with its agreed statements with Orthodox in the Joint International Commission.  I guess we will just have to wait and see where Rome finally ends up on these issues.
In the mean time, it's in our Creed and the law of prayer is the law of faith.

Out of curiosity and by no means intended to be snarky: when the filioque wasn't part of the Latin creed, did this rule not apply?
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« Reply #349 on: April 29, 2011, 08:28:29 PM »

Are you also free to reject Latin dogmas and Papal ex cathedra pronouncements without a loss of communion with Rome?

I don't know the precise canons, but my understanding is that Catholic canon law is such that the pope can excommunicate anyone who rejects such things (e.g. the Immaculate Conception), but not that he is obliged to do so.
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« Reply #350 on: April 29, 2011, 10:19:21 PM »

Are you also free to reject Latin dogmas and Papal ex cathedra pronouncements without a loss of communion with Rome?
I am not Latin, so I do not believe in "Latin" dogmas.  Anything that is peculiar to the Latin Church is merely theologoumena.
I thought full communion with Rome required full adherence to our dogma. If something is a dogma that means it is true, so it's not as if Mary is only the Immaculate Conception in the Western Church, either she is the Immaculate Conception or she is not.
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« Reply #351 on: April 29, 2011, 10:40:03 PM »

Shoo, who needs Orthodox to argue with the Latins about the heresy of the filioque when they can argue amongst themselves!  Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #352 on: April 29, 2011, 11:45:55 PM »

Shoo, who needs Orthodox to argue with the Latins about the heresy of the filioque when they can argue amongst themselves!  Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
Well, Apotheoun is not Latin. Here I thought Catholic was Catholic and that the Eastern Catholic Churches used different rites but essentially had the same faith. Yet, it seems more and more that we do not have the same faith. What I am wondering, though, is if Apotheoun's beliefs are common amongst Eastern Catholics or if the things which he has said are specifically just his personal beliefs.
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« Reply #353 on: April 30, 2011, 12:16:33 AM »

Shoo, who needs Orthodox to argue with the Latins about the heresy of the filioque when they can argue amongst themselves!  Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
Well, Apotheoun is not Latin. Here I thought Catholic was Catholic and that the Eastern Catholic Churches used different rites but essentially had the same faith. Yet, it seems more and more that we do not have the same faith.
Well, having "essentially the same faith" and having "the same faith" are two different things.
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« Reply #354 on: April 30, 2011, 12:20:36 AM »

Shoo, who needs Orthodox to argue with the Latins about the heresy of the filioque when they can argue amongst themselves!  Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
Well, Apotheoun is not Latin. Here I thought Catholic was Catholic and that the Eastern Catholic Churches used different rites but essentially had the same faith. Yet, it seems more and more that we do not have the same faith.
Well, having "essentially the same faith" and having "the same faith" are two different things.
By essentially I meant I figured we had different terminology and such (confirmation vs. chrismation, etc.) but I didn't think they could outright reject our doctrine and still be in good standing with Rome.
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« Reply #355 on: April 30, 2011, 12:39:33 AM »

Shoo, who needs Orthodox to argue with the Latins about the heresy of the filioque when they can argue amongst themselves!  Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
Well, Apotheoun is not Latin. Here I thought Catholic was Catholic and that the Eastern Catholic Churches used different rites but essentially had the same faith. Yet, it seems more and more that we do not have the same faith.
Well, having "essentially the same faith" and having "the same faith" are two different things.
By essentially I meant I figured we had different terminology and such (confirmation vs. chrismation, etc.) but I didn't think they could outright reject our doctrine and still be in good standing with Rome.
Holding an idea as a theologumen is hardly an outright rejection of that idea.
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« Reply #356 on: April 30, 2011, 08:18:15 AM »

Shoo, who needs Orthodox to argue with the Latins about the heresy of the filioque when they can argue amongst themselves!  Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
Well, Apotheoun is not Latin. Here I thought Catholic was Catholic and that the Eastern Catholic Churches used different rites but essentially had the same faith. Yet, it seems more and more that we do not have the same faith.
Well, having "essentially the same faith" and having "the same faith" are two different things.
By essentially I meant I figured we had different terminology and such (confirmation vs. chrismation, etc.) but I didn't think they could outright reject our doctrine and still be in good standing with Rome.

You really do need to go and read this link I offered earlier, now listed below,  and then find the teachings on catechesis.  You are pushing a very big rock uphill here. 

What you legitimately CAN resist is a corruption of the teaching of the universal Church.  But you cannot expect a teaching to be "forced" upon a particular Church if that teaching is no a part of their ancient traditions.  IF there are members of a particular Church who choose to accept a teaching of the universal Church then it is wrong for members of any of the particular Churches to gainsay them.  If their hierarchs catechize a teaching such as the Immaculate Conception then they have the right to do that precisely because it is the truth, and nobody can speak against them for doing so as long as it is understood by all that it is a shift and change in their tradition.

No eastern Catholic is obliged to sound like Todd.  One would need to choose to do that.  He is not in a majority in his perspectives.  Not even among the Melkites.  Not every Melkites corrupts the teaching of the universal Church, nor do they present them publicly as heterodox teaching.  Some Melkites are actually quite lovely people and though they do not catechize their children the way that you might, they do not attack the universal Church for her teachings.

http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG1199.HTM

Paying particular attention to Title 1

However when you take Title 1 in concert with the various documents on local catechisms there is a great deal of leeway for a particular Church to catechize their children and adults in their own unique traditions.
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« Reply #357 on: April 30, 2011, 08:49:37 AM »

Well, Apotheoun is not Latin. Here I thought Catholic was Catholic and that the Eastern Catholic Churches used different rites but essentially had the same faith. Yet, it seems more and more that we do not have the same faith. What I am wondering, though, is if Apotheoun's beliefs are common amongst Eastern Catholics or if the things which he has said are specifically just his personal beliefs.

Just an observation.

It seems to me that there is a variation in Eastern Catholicism ranging everywhere from being "Latin Catholics (strict adherance to post schism western dogma) worshipping according to eastern liturgical tradition" on one end and "Orthodox in Communion with Rome (refusal to accept or et the very least integrate into teaching non-Orthodox dogma)" on the other end. I'm guessing (really just a guess please correct me if I'm wrong, kind of curious about this one) that most Eastern Catholics fall somewhere in between those two extremes.
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« Reply #358 on: April 30, 2011, 09:37:57 AM »

Well, Apotheoun is not Latin. Here I thought Catholic was Catholic and that the Eastern Catholic Churches used different rites but essentially had the same faith. Yet, it seems more and more that we do not have the same faith. What I am wondering, though, is if Apotheoun's beliefs are common amongst Eastern Catholics or if the things which he has said are specifically just his personal beliefs.

Just an observation.

It seems to me that there is a variation in Eastern Catholicism ranging everywhere from being "Latin Catholics (strict adherance to post schism western dogma) worshipping according to eastern liturgical tradition" on one end and "Orthodox in Communion with Rome (refusal to accept or et the very least integrate into teaching non-Orthodox dogma)" on the other end. I'm guessing (really just a guess please correct me if I'm wrong, kind of curious about this one) that most Eastern Catholics fall somewhere in between those two extremes.

To be honest I don't even think most of them are even on that continuum.  There are other considerations that take precedence...In the layers of things to be concerned about in Church, doctrine, outside of the liturgy, is way back on the list.
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ICXCNIKA
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« Reply #359 on: April 30, 2011, 11:22:44 AM »

Apotheoun is faithfully representing the teachings and beliefs of his Church and his bishops and is showing a great deal of grace under fire from some of those that consider him a coreligionist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoghby_Initiative

Signed by 24 out of 26 bishops.
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