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Author Topic: Why Filioque Is a Christological Error  (Read 33162 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #270 on: April 28, 2011, 07:33:45 PM »

http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/mdpd.htm

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/wmay_authority_nov06.asp

The truth as taught by the Church is to be believed.   It is really not rocket science.
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« Reply #271 on: April 28, 2011, 09:50:51 PM »

Christ is risen!
If the Father really is the ultimate source, then it is one source.

I don't really see it taught like that in the RC, unless I'm misunderstanding something, but that the Father and the Son together is the one source.

That is not accurate.  What you are suggesting, my Church, would call heresy.  So yes.  In this case you are misunderstanding something.
No, it has taught heresy. He understands correctly.
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« Reply #272 on: April 28, 2011, 10:10:32 PM »

I don't really see it taught like that in the RC, unless I'm misunderstanding something, but that the Father and the Son together is the one source.

Apotheoun can probably answer this better than I can, but I believe the Council of Florence said that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both "as from one source", but never actually said "the Father and the Son together are the one source."
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« Reply #273 on: April 29, 2011, 11:28:10 AM »

Council of Florence (Yes, I read the paragraph above this one, but it becomes confusing here.)
Quote
In the name of the holy Trinity, Father, Son and holy Spirit, we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: that the holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration. We declare that when holy doctors and fathers say that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, this bears the sense that thereby also the Son should be signified, according to the Greeks indeed as cause, and according to the Latins as principle of the subsistence of the holy Spirit, just like the Father.

CCC Par 248
Quote
248 At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father's character as first origin of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he "who proceeds from the Father", it affirms that he comes from the Father through the Son.77 The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). It says this, "legitimately and with good reason",78 for the eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as "the principle without principle",79 is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds.80 This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #274 on: April 29, 2011, 12:19:40 PM »

The Roman Church teaches that the Spirit ". . . proceeds from both [i.e., the Father and the Son] eternally as from one principle and a single spiration," and so the Father and the Son ". . . should be signified, according to the Greeks indeed as cause . . . of the subsistence of the Holy Spirit" [Norman P. Tanner, S.J., (Editor), Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, (London and Washington, D.C.: Sheed & Ward, and Georgetown University Press, 1990), pages 526-527].

This teaching is of course contrary to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church.
So then, why are you in communion with us?
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« Reply #275 on: April 29, 2011, 12:25:09 PM »

The Roman Church teaches that the Spirit ". . . proceeds from both [i.e., the Father and the Son] eternally as from one principle and a single spiration," and so the Father and the Son ". . . should be signified, according to the Greeks indeed as cause . . . of the subsistence of the Holy Spirit" [Norman P. Tanner, S.J., (Editor), Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, (London and Washington, D.C.: Sheed & Ward, and Georgetown University Press, 1990), pages 526-527].

This teaching is of course contrary to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church.
So then, why are you in communion with us?

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
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« Reply #276 on: April 29, 2011, 01:05:27 PM »

The Roman Church teaches that the Spirit ". . . proceeds from both [i.e., the Father and the Son] eternally as from one principle and a single spiration," and so the Father and the Son ". . . should be signified, according to the Greeks indeed as cause . . . of the subsistence of the Holy Spirit" [Norman P. Tanner, S.J., (Editor), Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, (London and Washington, D.C.: Sheed & Ward, and Georgetown University Press, 1990), pages 526-527].

This teaching is of course contrary to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church.
So then, why are you in communion with us?

The title of this thread is "Why Filioque Is a Christological Error". I know you can read.
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« Reply #277 on: April 29, 2011, 01:06:40 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #278 on: April 29, 2011, 01:22:46 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
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« Reply #279 on: April 29, 2011, 01:40:01 PM »

The Roman Church teaches that the Spirit ". . . proceeds from both [i.e., the Father and the Son] eternally as from one principle and a single spiration," and so the Father and the Son ". . . should be signified, according to the Greeks indeed as cause . . . of the subsistence of the Holy Spirit" [Norman P. Tanner, S.J., (Editor), Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, (London and Washington, D.C.: Sheed & Ward, and Georgetown University Press, 1990), pages 526-527].

This teaching is of course contrary to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church.
So then, why are you in communion with us?
I thought I was fairly precise in what I said:  "This teaching is of course contrary to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church."  You will notice that I did not say that it is contrary to the doctrine of the Melkite Catholic Church, although it clearly does not coincide with our teaching, but we Melkites try to give our Roman friends the benefit of the doubt about this non-dogmatic position of the Western Church.
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« Reply #280 on: April 29, 2011, 01:40:41 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!
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« Reply #281 on: April 29, 2011, 01:44:21 PM »

So then, why are you in communion with us?
One reason I remain Eastern Catholic is so that I can continue to be a thorn in the side of bigoted Roman Catholics.  Just kidding of course.  Why would I want to leave the Melkite Church?  It is my spiritual home.
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« Reply #282 on: April 29, 2011, 02:04:46 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!

Exactly!...We do not need to be perfect or perfectly in line with our beliefs to be in communion.

Voistinu Voskrese!
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« Reply #283 on: April 29, 2011, 02:19:44 PM »

So then, why are you in communion with us?
One reason I remain Eastern Catholic is so that I can continue to be a thorn in the side of bigoted Roman Catholics.  Just kidding of course.  Why would I want to leave the Melkite Church?  It is my spiritual home.
It just seems weird for you to be incommunion with those you would logically have to conclude are heretics...
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« Reply #284 on: April 29, 2011, 02:30:54 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!

Exactly!...We do not need to be perfect or perfectly in line with our beliefs to be in communion.

Voistinu Voskrese!
Yes, you may not be in line perfectly with your Churches beliefs, but thankfully I am in line with Melkite teaching on the filioque.
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« Reply #285 on: April 29, 2011, 02:36:17 PM »

So then, why are you in communion with us?
One reason I remain Eastern Catholic is so that I can continue to be a thorn in the side of bigoted Roman Catholics.  Just kidding of course.  Why would I want to leave the Melkite Church?  It is my spiritual home.
It just seems weird for you to be incommunion with those you would logically have to conclude are heretics...
I do not remember calling you or any Roman Catholic a heretic.  Besides, heresy only applies in connection with the rejection of the truth or the explicit acceptance of something heterodox as dogma, and the Melkite Catholic Church does not believe that the filioque is a dogma, seeing it instead as simply an opinion of many medieval Latin theologians.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 02:36:48 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #286 on: April 29, 2011, 02:38:11 PM »

So then, why are you in communion with us?
One reason I remain Eastern Catholic is so that I can continue to be a thorn in the side of bigoted Roman Catholics.  Just kidding of course.  Why would I want to leave the Melkite Church?  It is my spiritual home.
It just seems weird for you to be incommunion with those you would logically have to conclude are heretics...
I do not remember calling you or any Roman Catholic a heretic.  Besides, heresy only applies in connection with the rejection of the truth or the explicit acceptance of something heterodox as dogma, and the Melkite Catholic Church does not believe that the filioque is a dogma, seeing it instead as simply an opinion of many medieval Latin theologians.
Really? Because we Latins have made it pretty clear that we accept it as dogma. I mean, there is the council of Florence, among others, and, for goodness sakes, it's in the Creed we recite at the Liturgy and has been for centuries. The law of prayer is the law of faith you know.
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« Reply #287 on: April 29, 2011, 02:42:01 PM »

So then, why are you in communion with us?
One reason I remain Eastern Catholic is so that I can continue to be a thorn in the side of bigoted Roman Catholics.  Just kidding of course.  Why would I want to leave the Melkite Church?  It is my spiritual home.
It just seems weird for you to be incommunion with those you would logically have to conclude are heretics...
I do not remember calling you or any Roman Catholic a heretic.  Besides, heresy only applies in connection with the rejection of the truth or the explicit acceptance of something heterodox as dogma, and the Melkite Catholic Church does not believe that the filioque is a dogma, seeing it instead as simply an opinion of many medieval Latin theologians.
Really? Because we Latins have made it pretty clear that we accept it as dogma. I mean, there is the council of Florence, among others, and, for goodness sakes, it's in the Creed we recite at the Liturgy and has been for centuries. The law of prayer is the law of faith you know.
That is because you mistakenly believe that the particular synods of the Latin Church, which it held during the second millennium, are ecumenical councils, when in fact they are not.  Those Western councils are simply local in nature, and cannot produce dogmas or any form of binding doctrine.  They are expressions of theological opinion, which - to paraphrase Archbishop Zoghby of blessed memory - cannot bind anyone because of their local nature. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 02:42:45 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #288 on: April 29, 2011, 02:42:36 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!

Exactly!...We do not need to be perfect or perfectly in line with our beliefs to be in communion.

Voistinu Voskrese!
Yes, you may not be in line perfectly with your Churches beliefs, but thankfully I am in line with Melkite teaching on the filioque.

How arrogant of you to presume to know what my beliefs are with respect to my Church, or even to think you know what they need to be.  You arrogate to yourself an understanding of the teaching of the papal Church that is absolutely wrong, and yet you presume to tell me that I am not in line with my Churches beliefs.

Well my dear, you may have a few campy followers but that does not give you the right to judge me in ANY way shape or form.

Christ is Risen!
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« Reply #289 on: April 29, 2011, 02:44:16 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!

Exactly!...We do not need to be perfect or perfectly in line with our beliefs to be in communion.

Voistinu Voskrese!
Yes, you may not be in line perfectly with your Churches beliefs, but thankfully I am in line with Melkite teaching on the filioque.

How arrogant of you to presume to know what my beliefs are with respect to my Church, or even to think you know what they need to be.  You arrogate to yourself an understanding of the teaching of the papal Church that is absolutely wrong, and yet you presume to tell me that I am not in line with my Churches beliefs.
Pot meet kettle.  That is precisely what you were doing to me, and I see that you do not appreciate it anymore than I did.

Christos Voskrese!
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 02:44:29 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #290 on: April 29, 2011, 02:47:24 PM »

Well my dear, you may have a few campy followers but that does not give you the right to judge me in ANY way shape or form.

Christ is Risen!
I have no followers, nor do I want any.  As far as judging you is concerned, I would not presume to judge you personally, because I do not know you from Adam, but I will judge your comments, and when they are offensive or erroneous, I will speak up in opposition to what you have said.

P.S. - When you speak the truth I will defend your comments, but alas we rarely see eye to eye on things.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 02:49:22 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #291 on: April 29, 2011, 02:50:22 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!

Exactly!...We do not need to be perfect or perfectly in line with our beliefs to be in communion.

Voistinu Voskrese!
Yes, you may not be in line perfectly with your Churches beliefs, but thankfully I am in line with Melkite teaching on the filioque.

How arrogant of you to presume to know what my beliefs are with respect to my Church, or even to think you know what they need to be.  You arrogate to yourself an understanding of the teaching of the papal Church that is absolutely wrong, and yet you presume to tell me that I am not in line with my Churches beliefs.
Pot meet kettle.  That is precisely what you were doing to me, and I see that you do not appreciate it anymore than I did.

Christos Voskrese!

Not at all.  My ONLY complaint with you over the years was that you mis-read the Catholic teaching concerning filioque and broadcast your reading far and wide as the only possible truth,  and claimed you stood on higher ground because you recognized it as heterodox teaching.

I have always defended you here against Papist and hoped that he would stop.

That ends here.
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« Reply #292 on: April 29, 2011, 02:52:07 PM »

So then, why are you in communion with us?
One reason I remain Eastern Catholic is so that I can continue to be a thorn in the side of bigoted Roman Catholics.  Just kidding of course.  Why would I want to leave the Melkite Church?  It is my spiritual home.
It just seems weird for you to be incommunion with those you would logically have to conclude are heretics...
I do not remember calling you or any Roman Catholic a heretic.  Besides, heresy only applies in connection with the rejection of the truth or the explicit acceptance of something heterodox as dogma, and the Melkite Catholic Church does not believe that the filioque is a dogma, seeing it instead as simply an opinion of many medieval Latin theologians.
Really? Because we Latins have made it pretty clear that we accept it as dogma. I mean, there is the council of Florence, among others, and, for goodness sakes, it's in the Creed we recite at the Liturgy and has been for centuries. The law of prayer is the law of faith you know.
That is because you mistakenly believe that the particular synods of the Latin Church, which it held during the second millennium, are ecumenical councils, when in fact they are not.  Those Western councils are simply local in nature, and cannot produce dogmas or any form of binding doctrine.  They are expressions of theological opinion, which - to paraphrase Archbishop Zoghby of blessed memory - cannot bind anyone because of their local nature. 
And, yet, we as Latins accept them as dogmatic and binding. So wouldn't that make us heretics in your paradigm?
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« Reply #293 on: April 29, 2011, 02:54:34 PM »

Todd,
I, along with all of the Latins that I spend time with, accept and profess that the filioque is dogmatic, and binding, along with the doctrines of purgatory, the immaculate conception, original sin, papal primacy, etc. I believe and profess these things, both in thought, and in the Liturgy. Is the law of prayer not the law of faith?
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« Reply #294 on: April 29, 2011, 02:55:00 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!

Exactly!...We do not need to be perfect or perfectly in line with our beliefs to be in communion.

Voistinu Voskrese!
Yes, you may not be in line perfectly with your Churches beliefs, but thankfully I am in line with Melkite teaching on the filioque.

How arrogant of you to presume to know what my beliefs are with respect to my Church, or even to think you know what they need to be.  You arrogate to yourself an understanding of the teaching of the papal Church that is absolutely wrong, and yet you presume to tell me that I am not in line with my Churches beliefs.
Pot meet kettle.  That is precisely what you were doing to me, and I see that you do not appreciate it anymore than I did.

Christos Voskrese!

Not at all.  My ONLY complaint with you over the years was that you mis-read the Catholic teaching concerning filioque and broadcast your reading far and wide as the only possible truth,  and claimed you stood on higher ground because you recognized it as heterodox teaching.

I have always defended you here against Papist and hoped that he would stop.

That ends here.

And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  
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« Reply #295 on: April 29, 2011, 02:55:09 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!

Exactly!...We do not need to be perfect or perfectly in line with our beliefs to be in communion.

Voistinu Voskrese!
Yes, you may not be in line perfectly with your Churches beliefs, but thankfully I am in line with Melkite teaching on the filioque.

How arrogant of you to presume to know what my beliefs are with respect to my Church, or even to think you know what they need to be.  You arrogate to yourself an understanding of the teaching of the papal Church that is absolutely wrong, and yet you presume to tell me that I am not in line with my Churches beliefs.
Pot meet kettle.  That is precisely what you were doing to me, and I see that you do not appreciate it anymore than I did.

Christos Voskrese!

Not at all.  My ONLY complaint with you over the years was that you mis-read the Catholic teaching concerning filioque and broadcast your reading far and wide as the only possible truth,  and claimed you stood on higher ground because you recognized it as heterodox teaching.

I have always defended you here against Papist and hoped that he would stop.

That ends here.

She has defended you Todd. Smiley
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« Reply #296 on: April 29, 2011, 02:56:50 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!

Exactly!...We do not need to be perfect or perfectly in line with our beliefs to be in communion.

Voistinu Voskrese!
Yes, you may not be in line perfectly with your Churches beliefs, but thankfully I am in line with Melkite teaching on the filioque.

How arrogant of you to presume to know what my beliefs are with respect to my Church, or even to think you know what they need to be.  You arrogate to yourself an understanding of the teaching of the papal Church that is absolutely wrong, and yet you presume to tell me that I am not in line with my Churches beliefs.
Pot meet kettle.  That is precisely what you were doing to me, and I see that you do not appreciate it anymore than I did.

Christos Voskrese!

Not at all.  My ONLY complaint with you over the years was that you mis-read the Catholic teaching concerning filioque and broadcast your reading far and wide as the only possible truth,  and claimed you stood on higher ground because you recognized it as heterodox teaching.

I have always defended you here against Papist and hoped that he would stop.

That ends here.

And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  
Todd, I think your position is dishonest. You try to explain away Latin doctrines that we hold as dogmatically binding, so that you can remain in communion with Rome. Let me make it clear to you. The Filioque is part recited in the Creed. The Law of prayer is the Law of faith. Therefore, we Latins hold it dogmatically.
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« Reply #297 on: April 29, 2011, 02:57:08 PM »

Todd,
I, along with all of the Latins that I spend time with, accept and profess that the filioque is dogmatic, and binding, along with the doctrines of purgatory, the immaculate conception, original sin, papal primacy, etc. I believe and profess these things, both in thought, and in the Liturgy. Is the law of prayer not the law of faith?
I am sure that you and your friends do just that, but Rome has wavered in recent years both with its "Clarification on the Filioque," and with its agreed statements with Orthodox in the Joint International Commission.  I guess we will just have to wait and see where Rome finally ends up on these issues.
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"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
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« Reply #298 on: April 29, 2011, 02:57:59 PM »

Todd,
I, along with all of the Latins that I spend time with, accept and profess that the filioque is dogmatic, and binding, along with the doctrines of purgatory, the immaculate conception, original sin, papal primacy, etc. I believe and profess these things, both in thought, and in the Liturgy. Is the law of prayer not the law of faith?
I am sure that you and your friends do just that, but Rome has wavered in recent years both with its "Clarification on the Filioque," and with its agreed statements with Orthodox in the Joint International Commission.  I guess we will just have to wait and see where Rome finally ends up on these issues.
In the mean time, it's in our Creed and the law of prayer is the law of faith.
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« Reply #299 on: April 29, 2011, 02:59:00 PM »


And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  

I never twist any Catholic teaching to suit anyone.  I've spent many more years than you learning what my Church teaches, and have no need to change it to suit anyone.  Not a soul.  Especially not someone who thinks a degree makes the scholar.
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« Reply #300 on: April 29, 2011, 02:59:05 PM »

Quote

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Same reason all other nominally Catholic believers are as long as they don't leave us or try to destroy us internally... Tongue

Same reason saints and sinners commune from the same Chalice.
Angry


You have a problem communing with sinners?
As a sinner, I have no problem communing with sinners like you either.  Christos Voskrese!

Exactly!...We do not need to be perfect or perfectly in line with our beliefs to be in communion.

Voistinu Voskrese!
Yes, you may not be in line perfectly with your Churches beliefs, but thankfully I am in line with Melkite teaching on the filioque.

How arrogant of you to presume to know what my beliefs are with respect to my Church, or even to think you know what they need to be.  You arrogate to yourself an understanding of the teaching of the papal Church that is absolutely wrong, and yet you presume to tell me that I am not in line with my Churches beliefs.
Pot meet kettle.  That is precisely what you were doing to me, and I see that you do not appreciate it anymore than I did.

Christos Voskrese!

Not at all.  My ONLY complaint with you over the years was that you mis-read the Catholic teaching concerning filioque and broadcast your reading far and wide as the only possible truth,  and claimed you stood on higher ground because you recognized it as heterodox teaching.

I have always defended you here against Papist and hoped that he would stop.

That ends here.

And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  
Todd, I think your position is dishonest. You try to explain away Latin doctrines that we hold as dogmatically binding, so that you can remain in communion with Rome. Let me make it clear to you. The Filioque is part recited in the Creed. The Law of prayer is the Law of faith. Therefore, we Latins hold it dogmatically.
I have no doubt that you believe that about me.  But I am being quite honest and faithful to the Melkite Church of which I am a member.  Be that as it may, in regard to your position, I believe that you are being honest, but that you are simply in error.
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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
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« Reply #301 on: April 29, 2011, 03:00:25 PM »


And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  

I never twist any Catholic teaching to suit anyone.  I've spent many more years than you learning what my Church teaches, and have no need to change it to suit anyone.  Not a soul.  Especially not someone who thinks a degree makes the scholar.
My friends and I have nick-named you cyclone Elijahmaria.  I have never seen so much twisting.  Cheesy
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« Reply #302 on: April 29, 2011, 03:00:57 PM »

Todd,
I, along with all of the Latins that I spend time with, accept and profess that the filioque is dogmatic, and binding, along with the doctrines of purgatory, the immaculate conception, original sin, papal primacy, etc. I believe and profess these things, both in thought, and in the Liturgy. Is the law of prayer not the law of faith?
I am sure that you and your friends do just that, but Rome has wavered in recent years both with its "Clarification on the Filioque," and with its agreed statements with Orthodox in the Joint International Commission.  I guess we will just have to wait and see where Rome finally ends up on these issues.

You are wrong historically, Todd, and the thing that warms my heart is that in future it will Orthodox scholars who will prove you to be historically wrong for they are the ones coming to grips with that which has been denied for so many centuries in the east.

All in good time, Todd.  All in good time.
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« Reply #303 on: April 29, 2011, 03:01:18 PM »


And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  

I never twist any Catholic teaching to suit anyone.  I've spent many more years than you learning what my Church teaches, and have no need to change it to suit anyone.  Not a soul.  Especially not someone who thinks a degree makes the scholar.
With my friends I have nick-named you cyclone Elijahmaria.
That's funny,Todd,  because when I refer to your posts, I always call you the non-Catholic Catholic.
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« Reply #304 on: April 29, 2011, 03:01:48 PM »


And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern. 

I never twist any Catholic teaching to suit anyone.  I've spent many more years than you learning what my Church teaches, and have no need to change it to suit anyone.  Not a soul.  Especially not someone who thinks a degree makes the scholar.
With my friends I have nick-named you cyclone Elijahmaria.
That's funny, because when I refer to your posts, I always call you the non-Catholic Catholic.
I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy  It is time for you to come to terms with the fact that the Catholic Church is composed of 23 self-governing Churches, all with their own theology, spirituality, and liturgy.
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« Reply #305 on: April 29, 2011, 03:02:04 PM »


And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  

I never twist any Catholic teaching to suit anyone.  I've spent many more years than you learning what my Church teaches, and have no need to change it to suit anyone.  Not a soul.  Especially not someone who thinks a degree makes the scholar.
My friends and I have nick-named you cyclone Elijahmaria.  I have never seen so much twisting.  Cheesy

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You never enter my conversations!!
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« Reply #306 on: April 29, 2011, 03:02:28 PM »


And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  

I never twist any Catholic teaching to suit anyone.  I've spent many more years than you learning what my Church teaches, and have no need to change it to suit anyone.  Not a soul.  Especially not someone who thinks a degree makes the scholar.
With my friends I have nick-named you cyclone Elijahmaria.
That's funny, because when I refer to your posts, I always call you the non-Catholic Catholic.
I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy
No, its because you confuse  Byzantianism/Hellenism with Catholicism.
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« Reply #307 on: April 29, 2011, 03:03:14 PM »

Todd,
I, along with all of the Latins that I spend time with, accept and profess that the filioque is dogmatic, and binding, along with the doctrines of purgatory, the immaculate conception, original sin, papal primacy, etc. I believe and profess these things, both in thought, and in the Liturgy. Is the law of prayer not the law of faith?
I am sure that you and your friends do just that, but Rome has wavered in recent years both with its "Clarification on the Filioque," and with its agreed statements with Orthodox in the Joint International Commission.  I guess we will just have to wait and see where Rome finally ends up on these issues.

You are wrong historically, Todd, and the thing that warms my heart is that in future it will Orthodox scholars who will prove you to be historically wrong for they are the ones coming to grips with that which has been denied for so many centuries in the east.

All in good time, Todd.  All in good time.
Assertions are not proof.
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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
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« Reply #308 on: April 29, 2011, 03:03:28 PM »

However Todd, some of your extereme/nearly-Buddhist views might even be considered too much for the Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #309 on: April 29, 2011, 03:04:02 PM »


And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  

I never twist any Catholic teaching to suit anyone.  I've spent many more years than you learning what my Church teaches, and have no need to change it to suit anyone.  Not a soul.  Especially not someone who thinks a degree makes the scholar.
With my friends I have nick-named you cyclone Elijahmaria.
That's funny, because when I refer to your posts, I always call you the non-Catholic Catholic.
I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy
No, its because you confuse  Byzantianism/Hellenism with Catholicism.
Byzantine theology is many things, but a form of Hellenism it is not.  Read the Synodikon.
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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
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« Reply #310 on: April 29, 2011, 03:05:07 PM »


And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  

I never twist any Catholic teaching to suit anyone.  I've spent many more years than you learning what my Church teaches, and have no need to change it to suit anyone.  Not a soul.  Especially not someone who thinks a degree makes the scholar.
With my friends I have nick-named you cyclone Elijahmaria.
That's funny, because when I refer to your posts, I always call you the non-Catholic Catholic.
I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy
No, its because you confuse  Byzantianism/Hellenism with Catholicism.
Byzantine theology is many things, but a form of Hellenism it is not.  Read the Synodikon.
Of course it is. When you take it in it's extreme views (such as those you often present) it isn't far off from Neo-Platonism. I don't think that the Eastern Orthodox go that far, but you do sometimes.
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« Reply #311 on: April 29, 2011, 03:05:13 PM »

However Todd, some of your extereme/nearly-Buddhist views might even be considered too much for the Eastern Orthodox.
That's a new one.  How many of St. Maximos' writings have you read?
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St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
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« Reply #312 on: April 29, 2011, 03:06:17 PM »

However Todd, some of your extereme/nearly-Buddhist views might even be considered too much for the Eastern Orthodox.
That's a new one.  How many of St. Maximos' writings have you read?
What does that have to do with har far you go into transforming God in the ultimate zero and changing theosis into Nirvana?
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« Reply #313 on: April 29, 2011, 03:06:39 PM »


And I think that you misread Catholic teaching, and I have thought that for many years.  I find it reprehensible when you twist Catholic teaching in order to try and make it more palatable to the Orthodox.  Perhaps that is why I respect Papist, even when I do not agree with him on certain issues, because he does not try to distort Latin teaching in order to make it look more Eastern.  

I never twist any Catholic teaching to suit anyone.  I've spent many more years than you learning what my Church teaches, and have no need to change it to suit anyone.  Not a soul.  Especially not someone who thinks a degree makes the scholar.
With my friends I have nick-named you cyclone Elijahmaria.
That's funny, because when I refer to your posts, I always call you the non-Catholic Catholic.
I know, but that is because you confuse being Latin with being Catholic.  Cheesy
No, its because you confuse  Byzantianism/Hellenism with Catholicism.
Byzantine theology is many things, but a form of Hellenism it is not.  Read the Synodikon.
Of course it is. When you take it in it's extreme views (such as those you often present) it isn't far off from Neo-Platonism. I don't think that the Eastern Orthodox go that far, but you do sometimes.
This comment proves that you know very little about Eastern Orthodox theology.  You might want to peruse Dr. John Jones' writings on Pseudo-Dionysios.
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St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
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« Reply #314 on: April 29, 2011, 03:07:41 PM »

However Todd, some of your extereme/nearly-Buddhist views might even be considered too much for the Eastern Orthodox.
That's a new one.  How many of St. Maximos' writings have you read?
What does that have to do with har far you go into transforming God in the ultimate zero and changing theosis into Nirvana?
The fact that God is beyond being, a belief held by St. Maximos (and St. Gregory Palamas, and others), is not Buddhist my dear friend, it is Christian.
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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
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