Author Topic: Purgatory, and the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Views on Sin and Forgiveness  (Read 74136 times)

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Offline elijahmaria

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Well, then, this would make Jesus Christ our chief Adversary, since He is the fulfillment of the Law!   ;)

Seriously, God is not our adversary.  This is a position held by the Devil.  The Law is not our Adversary, because God pronounced the law to save mankind:


LOL...Nice twist!!

Sin renders God and the Law as adversaries.

The devil need not even try to do what mankind does so well.  A slight prompting here and there a gentle nudge...and we happily turn what should be a relationship of love into an adversarial relationship.

Unless of course you think that sin is a sign of caritas....?

Mary

Offline Dave in McKinney

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With regards to Luke 12...

Who has to pay? Isn't it the one who didn't settle with his accuser?

The whole of Luke 12 seems to be telling us to be aware and start living in Chris today and not wait until sometime down the road.  We need to die to the world today.  The one who ends up paying in the end sounds like it's the one that was never repentent.   I guess I don't really see how this has anything to do with being punished after after having asked for forgiveness.  I see this more about final judgement than a purification.

Well sir, If you are fully and wholly repentant and fully and wholly sanctified, my hat's off to ya!...and if you come to death still in that state then like all good Catholics who die fully sanctified, you will miss the pleasures of purification!!   God grant it be so for you.

M.

So in one part you refer to purgatory as a "purification" and another part as paying for our transgressions.  The former refers to the final steps of divinization/theosis and latter as paying for past sins.  They are really two distinct concepts... what are you saying that purgatory is?

Offline elijahmaria

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With regards to Luke 12...

Who has to pay? Isn't it the one who didn't settle with his accuser?

The whole of Luke 12 seems to be telling us to be aware and start living in Chris today and not wait until sometime down the road.  We need to die to the world today.  The one who ends up paying in the end sounds like it's the one that was never repentent.   I guess I don't really see how this has anything to do with being punished after after having asked for forgiveness.  I see this more about final judgement than a purification.

Well sir, If you are fully and wholly repentant and fully and wholly sanctified, my hat's off to ya!...and if you come to death still in that state then like all good Catholics who die fully sanctified, you will miss the pleasures of purification!!   God grant it be so for you.

M.

So in one part you refer to purgatory as a "purification" and another part as paying for our transgressions.  The former refers to the final steps of divinization/theosis and latter as paying for past sins.  They are really two distinct concepts... what are you saying that purgatory is?

The Catholic Church says that purgatory is a state or process of purification/restoration based upon our ability or lack of ability to use God's grace to have achieved dispassion and to have restored what we could of the consequences of our sins in our own lifetime.  If we are unable to do these things during our lifetime then, with grace and God's help, we will do so immediately thereafter. 

The Catholic Church does not suggest that this purification is some sort of full stop on the road to theosis, nor does she teach that theosis is a full stop experience.

M.

Offline Wyatt

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So in one part you refer to purgatory as a "purification" and another part as paying for our transgressions.  The former refers to the final steps of divinization/theosis and latter as paying for past sins.  They are really two distinct concepts... what are you saying that purgatory is?
I would say it's not one or the other, but both. Purgatory purifies the soul of any remaining venial sins as well as the temporal punishment due to sin. The fact that one is deprived of the beatific vision temporarily to undergo this purification could be considered a punishment since souls that are saved are no doubt eager to be fully in the presence of God.

Offline Irish Hermit

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With regards to Luke 12...

Who has to pay? Isn't it the one who didn't settle with his accuser?

The whole of Luke 12 seems to be telling us to be aware and start living in Chris today and not wait until sometime down the road.  We need to die to the world today.  The one who ends up paying in the end sounds like it's the one that was never repentent.   I guess I don't really see how this has anything to do with being punished after after having asked for forgiveness.  I see this more about final judgement than a purification.

Well sir, If you are fully and wholly repentant and fully and wholly sanctified, my hat's off to ya!...and if you come to death still in that state then like all good Catholics who die fully sanctified, you will miss the pleasures of purification!!   God grant it be so for you.

M.

So in one part you refer to purgatory as a "purification" and another part as paying for our transgressions.  The former refers to the final steps of divinization/theosis and latter as paying for past sins.  They are really two distinct concepts... what are you saying that purgatory is?

The Catholic Church says that purgatory is a state or process of purification/restoration based upon our ability or lack of ability to use God's grace to have achieved dispassion and to have restored what we could of the consequences of our sins in our own lifetime.

Source?  Infallible statement please.   You have made us acutely aware in several discussions that unless something has received an infallible definition it is merely a part of pious tradition and may be revamped or completely discarded in the future. 

Quote

The Catholic Church does not suggest that this purification is some sort of full stop on the road to theosis, nor does she teach that theosis is a full stop experience.

Source?  Infallible statement please.  For the same reasons as above.

Offline elijahmaria

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Quote

The Catholic Church does not suggest that this purification is some sort of full stop on the road to theosis, nor does she teach that theosis is a full stop experience.

Source?  Infallible statement please.  For the same reasons as above.

Quote

CCC:  Life Goes On

VI. THE HOPE OF THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH

1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:

    The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631

1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."632 It will be the definitive realization of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."633

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."635

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been "in the nature of sacrament."636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, "the holy city" of God, "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

    For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.639

1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.640

1048 "We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men."641

1049 "Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society."642
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 11:55:17 AM by elijahmaria »

Offline elijahmaria

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With regards to Luke 12...

Who has to pay? Isn't it the one who didn't settle with his accuser?

The whole of Luke 12 seems to be telling us to be aware and start living in Chris today and not wait until sometime down the road.  We need to die to the world today.  The one who ends up paying in the end sounds like it's the one that was never repentent.   I guess I don't really see how this has anything to do with being punished after after having asked for forgiveness.  I see this more about final judgement than a purification.

Well sir, If you are fully and wholly repentant and fully and wholly sanctified, my hat's off to ya!...and if you come to death still in that state then like all good Catholics who die fully sanctified, you will miss the pleasures of purification!!   God grant it be so for you.

M.

So in one part you refer to purgatory as a "purification" and another part as paying for our transgressions.  The former refers to the final steps of divinization/theosis and latter as paying for past sins.  They are really two distinct concepts... what are you saying that purgatory is?

The Catholic Church says that purgatory is a state or process of purification/restoration based upon our ability or lack of ability to use God's grace to have achieved dispassion and to have restored what we could of the consequences of our sins in our own lifetime.  If we are unable to do these things during our lifetime then, with grace and God's help, we will do so immediately thereafter. 

The Catholic Church does not suggest that this purification is some sort of full stop on the road to theosis, nor does she teach that theosis is a full stop experience.

M.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm#Rather

John Paul II Wednesday Catechesis on Purgation

Purgatory Is Necessary Purification

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 4 August 1999, following his catecheses on heaven and hell, the Holy Father reflected on Purgatory. He explained that physical integrity is necessary to enter into perfect communion with God therefore "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

1. As we have seen in the previous two catecheses, on the basis of the definitive option for or against God, the human being finds he faces one of these alternatives:  either to live with the Lord in eternal beatitude, or to remain far from his presence.

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).

To share in divine life we must be totally purified

2. In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification.

According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.)

The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says:  "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). The figure of the Servant of the Lord, outlined in the Book of Isaiah, is also portrayed by his role of intercession and expiation for many; at the end of his suffering he "will see the light" and "will justify many", bearing their iniquities (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11).

Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration:  the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).

Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence

4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).

Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness.

This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).

5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis:  DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione:  DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio:  DS 1820).

It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one's destiny. The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches:  "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth' (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be reproposed today:  the dimension of "communio". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).

Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.

Offline stanley123

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

Offline Irish Hermit

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion. 

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


Offline Irish Hermit

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http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm#Rather

John Paul II Wednesday Catechesis on Purgation

Purgatory Is Necessary Purification


1.  The Orthodox receive their faith throught the transmission of the sacred Tradition which takes a variety of forms.   Bishops, priests and laity alike are all guardians of the Traditon and must be obedient to it.

2.  Catholics on the other hand are expected to be submissive to the Magisterium and to its official Magisterial teachings.  Whatever of their traditon has not been codified into a Magisterial teaching is really nothing more than what the Orthodox might call theologoumena.

I have learnt this major difference between our Churches in the way we approach the faith the hard way.   I instinctively fall into the error of thinking that Catholics are subject to Tradition and I have often written of their traditional beliefs as if they are a certain part of their faith.  In the absence of a magisterial teaching they are not.  They are only an interim belief/opinion on which you cannot place much reliance.

I think I have written about this here previously?  Teachings which have been taught and believed for centuries as part of Tradition within Catholicism may be annulled and superseded by subsequent teachings and definitions.

The amazingly superficial way in which the traditional teaching of purgatory as a place and a state was changed by Pope John Paul in a couple of lunchtime homilies is a case in point.   In a few minutes while people were munching on their sandwiches the Pope did away with the traditional teaching.  The Catholic world applauds this. I fear that this unserious approach to doctrine and tradition bodes ill for the dialogue with the Orthodox

But wait a moment, it was merely an opinion of Pope John Paul.  There was no official papal proclamation, no Council, no consultation with the Magisterium, no Magisterial pronouncement.  There is no reason at all why the next Pope cannot alter the teaching again, revert it to what was traditionally believed or add in new elements.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 05:31:40 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Wyatt

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1.  The Orthodox receive their faith throught the transmission of the sacred Tradition which takes a variety of forms.   Bishops, priests and laity alike are all guardians of the Traditon and must be obedient to it.

2.  Catholics on the other hand are expected to be submissive to the Magisterium and to its official Magisterial teachings.  Whatever of their traditon has not been codified into a Magisterial teaching is really nothing more than what the Orthodox might call theologoumena.

I have learnt this major difference between our Churches in the way we approach the faith the hard way.   I instinctively fall into the error of thinking that Catholics are subject to Tradition and I have often written of their traditional beliefs as if they are a certain part of their faith.  In the absence of a magisterial teaching they are not.  They are only an interim belief/opinion on which you cannot place much reliance.

I think I have written about this here previously?  Teachings which have been taught and believed for centuries as part of Tradition within Catholicism may be annulled and superseded by subsequent teachings and definitions.

The amazingly superficial way in which the traditional teaching of purgatory as a place and a state was changed by Pope John Paul in a couple of lunchtime homilies is a case in point.   In a few minutes while people were munching on their sandwiches the Pope did away with the traditional teaching.  The Catholic world applauds this. I fear that this unserious approach to doctrine and tradition bodes ill for the dialogue with the Orthodox

But wait a moment, it was merely an opinion of Pope John Paul.  There was no official papal proclamation, no Council, no consultation with the Magisterium, no Magisterial pronouncement.  There is no reason at all why the next Pope cannot alter the teaching again, revert it to what was traditionally believed or add in new elements.

Your lack of understanding when it comes to Catholic teaching is stunning. The only thing about purgatory that is doctrinal and must be believed always is that it exists. The nature of purgatory has never been defined, so it is inaccurate to say that Pope John Paul II "changed" anything because that implies that there already was a doctrinal teaching in place concerning the nature of purgatory. The faithful are free to  either believe that purgatory is a hellish place that people go to to be brutally and violent purged or the faithful are free to believe that it is a peaceful and pleasant process that the soul goes through, or anything in between. Pope John Paul II was offering a theological opinion. We are in no way bound to believe his view on purgatory, nor are we bound to believe the older view that purgatory is horrible and similar to hell.

Offline Irish Hermit

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1.  The Orthodox receive their faith throught the transmission of the sacred Tradition which takes a variety of forms.   Bishops, priests and laity alike are all guardians of the Traditon and must be obedient to it.

2.  Catholics on the other hand are expected to be submissive to the Magisterium and to its official Magisterial teachings.  Whatever of their traditon has not been codified into a Magisterial teaching is really nothing more than what the Orthodox might call theologoumena.

I have learnt this major difference between our Churches in the way we approach the faith the hard way.   I instinctively fall into the error of thinking that Catholics are subject to Tradition and I have often written of their traditional beliefs as if they are a certain part of their faith.  In the absence of a magisterial teaching they are not.  They are only an interim belief/opinion on which you cannot place much reliance.

I think I have written about this here previously?  Teachings which have been taught and believed for centuries as part of Tradition within Catholicism may be annulled and superseded by subsequent teachings and definitions.

The amazingly superficial way in which the traditional teaching of purgatory as a place and a state was changed by Pope John Paul in a couple of lunchtime homilies is a case in point.   In a few minutes while people were munching on their sandwiches the Pope did away with the traditional teaching.  The Catholic world applauds this. I fear that this unserious approach to doctrine and tradition bodes ill for the dialogue with the Orthodox

But wait a moment, it was merely an opinion of Pope John Paul.  There was no official papal proclamation, no Council, no consultation with the Magisterium, no Magisterial pronouncement.  There is no reason at all why the next Pope cannot alter the teaching again, revert it to what was traditionally believed or add in new elements.

Your lack of understanding when it comes to Catholic teaching is stunning. The only thing about purgatory that is doctrinal and must be believed always is that it exists. The nature of purgatory has never been defined, so it is inaccurate to say that Pope John Paul II "changed" anything because that implies that there already was a doctrinal teaching in place concerning the nature of purgatory.

Thank you.  You have confirmed exactly what I was saying.  In the absence of a magisterial definition no teaching in Roman Catholicism has any certainty.  It does not matter if it has been part of Roman Catholic tradition and teaching for hundreds of years.  If it has not had a magisterial definition it can be changed and discarded.

This is in sharp contrast to the Orthodox who believe that their faith is embodied in their Tradition and who have resorted to "magisterial" prouncements (i.e., conciliar statements) only when the faith has come under serious attack by enemies and needs a firm explanation and emphasis.

For example, we have no "magisterial" pronouncement on the Real Presence in the Eucharist but our Tradition would make it impossible to deny.  We have no "magisterial" pronouncement on the assumption of the Mother of God but the Tradition makes it quite impossible to deny.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 06:05:59 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Your lack of understanding when it comes to Catholic teaching is stunning. The only thing about purgatory that is doctrinal and must be believed always is that it exists.

Reading Wyatt's post (and Mary's also) I see that they are not in accord with papal teaching -ironic considering that it is always the Orthodox being told they do not understand Purgatory correctly.   What is being portrayed is a version of Purgatory Lite, a happy clappy Purgatory.

The papal teaching differs.

The Petrine teaching of Pope Paul VI, 1967:

"The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."   " Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences, Pope Paul VI, 1967 
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

So, the Pope says, expiation, fire, torments, purifying punishments.  These are the facts of what is taking place in Purgatory but Mary and Wyatt would rather overlook these facts.

I stand amazed that you know so little about your official Church teaching on Purgatory and you want to reduce it all to the statement:  Purgatory exists.!

It is possible to provide the words of Popes and theologians from centuries past which demonstrate that the Catholic Church teaches that souls are purified by the torment of purgatorial fire.     All that you are offering is a modern 20th century revamping of the doctrine.

Have you read the Catholic explanation of purgatory offered to the Orthodox at the Council of Florence?  The Council spent three months on the question of purgatorial FIRE and I believe that its teaching is viewed as infallible.

"From the time of the Apostles, the Church of Rome has taught.... The souls of those who after their baptism have sinned, but have afterwards sincerely repented and confessed their sins, though unable to perform the epitimia laid upon them by their spiritual father, or bring forth fruits of repentance sufficient to atone for their sins, these souls are purified by the fire of purgatory, some sooner, others slower, according, to their sins.." Florence.


"The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory. The least pain in Purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life." - St. Thomas Aquinas.

" "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."  Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences, Pope Paul VI, 1967

Wyatt, if you do not know the teaching of your Church, I urge you to do some study.  There is an enormous lot of material on it.

Offline stanley123

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion. 

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed devout Catholic widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous near torture and hardship suffering terribly to support themselves and save for college in a filthy sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise? 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 08:05:21 PM by stanley123 »

Offline Irish Hermit

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion.  

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise?  

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does not ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 08:11:41 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline stanley123

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion. 

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise? 

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does nor ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education. 

Offline elijahmaria

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion.  

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise?  

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does nor ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education.  

He can be freed Stanley, IF, as with the good thief, Jesus chooses to release him by grace before he dies...If not he will release him by grace after he dies.

You have the right of it.  


Mary
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 09:18:51 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline elijahmaria

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There is nothing in the following catechesis that either demands or negates the possibility of a purifying "fire" but just as God's energies may be likened to the rays of the sun, so too may the graces of purgation be likened to a purifying fire....a fire that refines and removes all impurities.

It is simply false to say that the teaching on purgation today is not that of the teaching yesterday.  

That kind of assertion is made generally in ignorance or malice but it is certainly NOT made in the fullness of truth and understanding of the patristic heritage in the Catholic west.

Mary


http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm#Rather

John Paul II Wednesday Catechesis on Purgation

Purgatory Is Necessary Purification

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 4 August 1999, following his catecheses on heaven and hell, the Holy Father reflected on Purgatory. He explained that physical integrity is necessary to enter into perfect communion with God therefore "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

1. As we have seen in the previous two catecheses, on the basis of the definitive option for or against God, the human being finds he faces one of these alternatives:  either to live with the Lord in eternal beatitude, or to remain far from his presence.

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).

To share in divine life we must be totally purified

2. In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification.

According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.)

The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says:  "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). The figure of the Servant of the Lord, outlined in the Book of Isaiah, is also portrayed by his role of intercession and expiation for many; at the end of his suffering he "will see the light" and "will justify many", bearing their iniquities (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11).

Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration:  the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).

Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence

4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).

Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness.

This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).

5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis:  DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione:  DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio:  DS 1820).

It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one's destiny. The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches:  "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth' (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be reproposed today:  the dimension of "communio". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).

Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 09:18:08 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline Wyatt

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No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education. 
And here you have hit on a very good point. Purgatory quite simply makes sense. When I was still a Protestant I remember reading a tract (ugh...Chick Tracts *sigh*) that really rubbed me the wrong way even as a Protestant. I just didn't think it was quite right. In it there was a couple who did countless good works throughout their life including giving money to charity and helping the poor in various ways. They were also very active in their church. Yet, at the end of the tract they go to hell because they did not specifically "accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior" through prayer. There was another character in the tract who was a horrible man who did countless terrible things throughout his life and made many people suffer. However, right before he dies he "accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior" and is immediately taken into heaven. This always rubbed me the wrong way because such a thing is completely unfair. The countless good things that the first couple did meant absolutely nothing and they still went to hell. Likewise, the countless horrible things the man did throughout his life did not matter either. The simple fact that he said a quick minute long prayer at the end of his life completely wiped his slate clean and he went directly to heaven. I had trouble accepting such a teaching then and I absolutely reject that teaching now. It hurts me intellectually to think of it. That is not justice, that is completely unfair. Unfortunately, I am saddened to see that really the Orthodox hold a view that isn't that far away from this. Apparently you can sin like crazy as long as you are right with God before you die and you get an automatic green light to immediately enter eternal bliss. There is no expiation, there is no justice. It is for this reason that I shall always believe in purgatory because the existence of purgatory just makes sense. Anything else is unfair. Of course God is a God of love and mercy, but He is also a God of justice. Purgatory itself is an act of mercy because without it, all would go to hell because nothing unclean enters heaven. Purgatory does not negate what Christ did on Calvary. Indeed, Purgatory exists because of Calvary. It is the means of purification before experiencing the Beatific Vision. As I posted earlier, in Spe Salvi Pope Benedict suggests that the fire of purgatory is Christ himself and He cleanses us and makes us holy as we embark on the journey to heaven.

Offline Melodist

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But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them

If anyone was truly able to just "undo" the sinful things they have done, Christ would not have had to die on a cross because we would be able to heal ourselves.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Wyatt

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But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them

If anyone was truly able to just "undo" the sinful things they have done, Christ would not have had to die on a cross because we would be able to heal ourselves.
You're getting forgiveness mixed up with expiation.

Offline elijahmaria

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But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them

If anyone was truly able to just "undo" the sinful things they have done, Christ would not have had to die on a cross because we would be able to heal ourselves.

We participate in Christ's salvific actions.  That is a universal Catholic teaching.  Orthodox believe that as well, so I have been told.

Mary

Offline elijahmaria

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But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them

If anyone was truly able to just "undo" the sinful things they have done, Christ would not have had to die on a cross because we would be able to heal ourselves.
You're getting forgiveness mixed up with expiation.

It is more than that Wyatt.  Expiation itself is participation in the saving acts of Jesus Christ.  We participate with him in the actions of the Cross and Resurrection.  We participate with him in redemption and restoration.

Mary

Offline stanley123

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion.  

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise?  

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does nor ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education.  

He can be freed Stanley, IF, as with the good thief, Jesus chooses to release him by grace before he dies...If not he will release him by grace after he dies.

You have the right of it.  


Mary
No. I don't see that happening. Here is a widow with several children trying to make ends meet and her whole life savings have been robbed thus depriving her children of a better life and college education. On top of that, the thief has burned down her house, shot one of the children leaving her paralyzed and in a semi-coma for life,  and thereby left her and her children with a terrible hardship and hellish nightmare of suffering on earth for years and years. Now, you tell me that it is perfectly just and right that this thief, who has committed these terrible acts and given no restitution to this poor and decent widow and her family, simply goes to a Church, makes the sign of the cross, and beats his breast saying he is sorry and due to a traffic accident, he dies as he leave the Church and  he then goes straight to heaven and paradise without making any restitution and all the while the devout Catholic widow and her family and paralysed daughter have to endure years and years of terrible suffering and hardship and hunger on earth? Do you know what it is like to see your daughter in a semi-coma, paralyzed and helpless, and at the same time  have to endure this type of nightmarish hunger and starvation and poverty  imposed by a criminal element of society?  If God is a just God, why would He accept this criminal scot free into heaven and let this poor decent and devout Catholic widow and family suffer a veritable hell on earth for years and years?
I don;t see it. What makes sense to me is that the thief will have to undergo a time in Purgatory since he did not make any restitution to this widow and her family. Yes, he repented, and he will therefore avoid hell. But there was no restitution so there is still left a temporal punishment due to sin.
There are a lot of things which may not be explicitly mentioned in the Bible but nevertheless, they hold true.

 

Offline stanley123

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No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education. 
And here you have hit on a very good point. Purgatory quite simply makes sense. When I was still a Protestant I remember reading a tract (ugh...Chick Tracts *sigh*) that really rubbed me the wrong way even as a Protestant. I just didn't think it was quite right. In it there was a couple who did countless good works throughout their life including giving money to charity and helping the poor in various ways. They were also very active in their church. Yet, at the end of the tract they go to hell because they did not specifically "accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior" through prayer. There was another character in the tract who was a horrible man who did countless terrible things throughout his life and made many people suffer. However, right before he dies he "accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior" and is immediately taken into heaven. This always rubbed me the wrong way because such a thing is completely unfair. The countless good things that the first couple did meant absolutely nothing and they still went to hell. Likewise, the countless horrible things the man did throughout his life did not matter either. The simple fact that he said a quick minute long prayer at the end of his life completely wiped his slate clean and he went directly to heaven. I had trouble accepting such a teaching then and I absolutely reject that teaching now. It hurts me intellectually to think of it. That is not justice, that is completely unfair. Unfortunately, I am saddened to see that really the Orthodox hold a view that isn't that far away from this. Apparently you can sin like crazy as long as you are right with God before you die and you get an automatic green light to immediately enter eternal bliss. There is no expiation, there is no justice. It is for this reason that I shall always believe in purgatory because the existence of purgatory just makes sense. Anything else is unfair. Of course God is a God of love and mercy, but He is also a God of justice. Purgatory itself is an act of mercy because without it, all would go to hell because nothing unclean enters heaven. Purgatory does not negate what Christ did on Calvary. Indeed, Purgatory exists because of Calvary. It is the means of purification before experiencing the Beatific Vision. As I posted earlier, in Spe Salvi Pope Benedict suggests that the fire of purgatory is Christ himself and He cleanses us and makes us holy as we embark on the journey to heaven.
Yes, of course you are absolutely correct.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Stanley,

We shall have to agree to differ.

1.  Roman Catholics have developed a theology whereby God requires two types pf punishment for sin, the eternal/infinite and the temporal.

According to them the temporal punishment is not taken care of through the Sacrifice of Christ on the the Cross.  It has to have personal expiation by the sinner.

2.  The Orthodox do not believe in temporal punishmnmet.

Therefore for the Orthodox there is no sense in Purgatory.

Offline Wyatt

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1.  Roman Catholics have developed a theology whereby God requires two types pf punishment for sin, the eternal/infinite and the temporal.
Alright, I'm with you so far.

According to them the temporal punishment is not taken care of through the Sacrifice of Christ on the the Cross.  It has to have personal expiation by the sinner.
Wrong. Purgatorial expiation would not be possible without the Sacrifice of Calvary. If Christ had not died and rose again, we would still be hanging out in Sheol after we died. The fact that the soul undergoes purgatory on its way to heaven is solely because of Christ's sacrifice.

2.  The Orthodox do not believe in temporal punishmnmet.

Therefore for the Orthodox there is no sense in Purgatory.
And so you follow a simplistic, semi-Protestant view of salvation. Alrighty...to each his own I suppose.

Offline Irish Hermit

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1.  Roman Catholics have developed a theology whereby God requires two types pf punishment for sin, the eternal/infinite and the temporal.
Alright, I'm with you so far.

According to them the temporal punishment is not taken care of through the Sacrifice of Christ on the the Cross.  It has to have personal expiation by the sinner.
Wrong. Purgatorial expiation would not be possible without the Sacrifice of Calvary. If Christ had not died and rose again, we would still be hanging out in Sheol after we died. The fact that the soul undergoes purgatory on its way to heaven is solely because of Christ's sacrifice.

2.  The Orthodox do not believe in temporal punishmnmet.

Therefore for the Orthodox there is no sense in Purgatory.
And so you follow a simplistic, semi-Protestant view of salvation. Alrighty...to each his own I suppose.

Call it what you like, but our theology precedes Protestantism by a millennium and more.

I am surprised that a Greek Catholic (Mary) is supporting Purgatory.  The only Greek Catholics I know are Ukrainian bishops, priests and faithful.  They adamantly deny Purgatory and the concepts which underlie it. It is clear to me that many Catholics agree with the Othodox and not with the Pope.

Offline Irish Hermit

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1.  Roman Catholics have developed a theology whereby God requires two types pf punishment for sin, the eternal/infinite and the temporal.
Alright, I'm with you so far.

According to them the temporal punishment is not taken care of through the Sacrifice of Christ on the the Cross.  It has to have personal expiation by the sinner.



Wrong. Purgatorial expiation would not be possible without the Sacrifice of Calvary. If Christ had not died and rose again, we would still be hanging out in Sheol after we died. The fact that the soul undergoes purgatory on its way to heaven is solely because of Christ's sacrifice.

What is wrong?

1. I said - temporal punishment is not taken care of through the Sacrifice of Christ on the the Cross.

And it is not. It remains as a noose around the neck of every sinner.  It is not atoned for by Christ.

1.  I said -  It has to have personal expiation by the sinner.

And so it does.

So what is *wrong*?


Offline elijahmaria

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion.  

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise?  

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does nor ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education.  

He can be freed Stanley, IF, as with the good thief, Jesus chooses to release him by grace before he dies...If not he will release him by grace after he dies.

You have the right of it.  


Mary
No. I don't see that happening. Here is a widow with several children trying to make ends meet and her whole life savings have been robbed thus depriving her children of a better life and college education. On top of that, the thief has burned down her house, shot one of the children leaving her paralyzed and in a semi-coma for life,  and thereby left her and her children with a terrible hardship and hellish nightmare of suffering on earth for years and years. Now, you tell me that it is perfectly just and right that this thief, who has committed these terrible acts and given no restitution to this poor and decent widow and her family, simply goes to a Church, makes the sign of the cross, and beats his breast saying he is sorry and due to a traffic accident, he dies as he leave the Church and  he then goes straight to heaven and paradise without making any restitution and all the while the devout Catholic widow and her family and paralysed daughter have to endure years and years of terrible suffering and hardship and hunger on earth? Do you know what it is like to see your daughter in a semi-coma, paralyzed and helpless, and at the same time  have to endure this type of nightmarish hunger and starvation and poverty  imposed by a criminal element of society?  If God is a just God, why would He accept this criminal scot free into heaven and let this poor decent and devout Catholic widow and family suffer a veritable hell on earth for years and years?
I don;t see it. What makes sense to me is that the thief will have to undergo a time in Purgatory since he did not make any restitution to this widow and her family. Yes, he repented, and he will therefore avoid hell. But there was no restitution so there is still left a temporal punishment due to sin.
There are a lot of things which may not be explicitly mentioned in the Bible but nevertheless, they hold true.

 

I am afraid it does not matter if you see it happening or not.  The Church through the tradition of her saints and doctors teach us that God's justice is not our justice...or mercy.  It is also pretty clear in some of Paul's letters that we are not all graced in the same way, in the same measure.

It would make an interesting side discussion of its own.

M.

Offline stanley123

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Stanley,

We shall have to agree to differ.
OK.
I am only trying to explain what makes sense to me, as I have outlined above.

Offline stanley123

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion.  

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise?  

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does nor ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education.  

He can be freed Stanley, IF, as with the good thief, Jesus chooses to release him by grace before he dies...If not he will release him by grace after he dies.

You have the right of it.  


Mary
No. I don't see that happening. Here is a widow with several children trying to make ends meet and her whole life savings have been robbed thus depriving her children of a better life and college education. On top of that, the thief has burned down her house, shot one of the children leaving her paralyzed and in a semi-coma for life,  and thereby left her and her children with a terrible hardship and hellish nightmare of suffering on earth for years and years. Now, you tell me that it is perfectly just and right that this thief, who has committed these terrible acts and given no restitution to this poor and decent widow and her family, simply goes to a Church, makes the sign of the cross, and beats his breast saying he is sorry and due to a traffic accident, he dies as he leave the Church and  he then goes straight to heaven and paradise without making any restitution and all the while the devout Catholic widow and her family and paralysed daughter have to endure years and years of terrible suffering and hardship and hunger on earth? Do you know what it is like to see your daughter in a semi-coma, paralyzed and helpless, and at the same time  have to endure this type of nightmarish hunger and starvation and poverty  imposed by a criminal element of society?  If God is a just God, why would He accept this criminal scot free into heaven and let this poor decent and devout Catholic widow and family suffer a veritable hell on earth for years and years?
I don;t see it. What makes sense to me is that the thief will have to undergo a time in Purgatory since he did not make any restitution to this widow and her family. Yes, he repented, and he will therefore avoid hell. But there was no restitution so there is still left a temporal punishment due to sin.
There are a lot of things which may not be explicitly mentioned in the Bible but nevertheless, they hold true.

 

I am afraid it does not matter if you see it happening or not.  The Church through the tradition of her saints and doctors teach us that God's justice is not our justice...or mercy.  It is also pretty clear in some of Paul's letters that we are not all graced in the same way, in the same measure.

It would make an interesting side discussion of its own.

M.
You haven't explained why it is fair to let the widow and her family suffer years and years a hellish life of poverty and suffering on earth, but let the disgusting criminal go scot free as he instantly at the moment of death. laughs with happiness and  goes into eternal bliss in paradise. So what you say with reference to Purgatory,  does not make sense to me.

Offline Wyatt

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What is wrong?

This:

1. I said - temporal punishment is not taken care of through the Sacrifice of Christ on the the Cross.
Isn't it though? Prior to Christ's sacrifice, absolutely everyone who died went to Sheol. Now, after Christ's death and resurrection, there is heaven and the intermediate state that exists prior to heaven which the Western Church refers to as purgatory. If such a thing didn't exist before Christ's death on the Cross, but exists after His death, does that not suggest that purgatory exists because of Christ's sacrifice?

And it is not. It remains as a noose around the neck of every sinner.  It is not atoned for by Christ.
I doubt anyone undergoing purgatory sees it that way since they know that the fact they are experiencing purgatory means they are saved. If I died right now and began experiencing purgatory I would rejoice regardless of whether it was peaceful or horrid as I would know I was on the right path.

1.  I said -  It has to have personal expiation by the sinner.
The sinner did not put themselves in purgatory by their own power. Purgation was the state their soul went into after their personal judgment. How do you figure that the sinner is purging themselves? Even if one does expiation on earth for their sins, it is the grace of God which compels them to do good works.

Offline elijahmaria

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion.  

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise?  

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does nor ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education.  

He can be freed Stanley, IF, as with the good thief, Jesus chooses to release him by grace before he dies...If not he will release him by grace after he dies.

You have the right of it.  


Mary
No. I don't see that happening. Here is a widow with several children trying to make ends meet and her whole life savings have been robbed thus depriving her children of a better life and college education. On top of that, the thief has burned down her house, shot one of the children leaving her paralyzed and in a semi-coma for life,  and thereby left her and her children with a terrible hardship and hellish nightmare of suffering on earth for years and years. Now, you tell me that it is perfectly just and right that this thief, who has committed these terrible acts and given no restitution to this poor and decent widow and her family, simply goes to a Church, makes the sign of the cross, and beats his breast saying he is sorry and due to a traffic accident, he dies as he leave the Church and  he then goes straight to heaven and paradise without making any restitution and all the while the devout Catholic widow and her family and paralysed daughter have to endure years and years of terrible suffering and hardship and hunger on earth? Do you know what it is like to see your daughter in a semi-coma, paralyzed and helpless, and at the same time  have to endure this type of nightmarish hunger and starvation and poverty  imposed by a criminal element of society?  If God is a just God, why would He accept this criminal scot free into heaven and let this poor decent and devout Catholic widow and family suffer a veritable hell on earth for years and years?
I don;t see it. What makes sense to me is that the thief will have to undergo a time in Purgatory since he did not make any restitution to this widow and her family. Yes, he repented, and he will therefore avoid hell. But there was no restitution so there is still left a temporal punishment due to sin.
There are a lot of things which may not be explicitly mentioned in the Bible but nevertheless, they hold true.

 

I am afraid it does not matter if you see it happening or not.  The Church through the tradition of her saints and doctors teach us that God's justice is not our justice...or mercy.  It is also pretty clear in some of Paul's letters that we are not all graced in the same way, in the same measure.

It would make an interesting side discussion of its own.

M.
You haven't explained why it is fair to let the widow and her family suffer years and years a hellish life of poverty and suffering on earth, but let the disgusting criminal go scot free as he instantly at the moment of death. laughs with happiness and  goes into eternal bliss in paradise. So what you say with reference to Purgatory,  does not make sense to me.

I offered the example of the workers in the vineyard to indicate that its not simply my opinion that God's ways are not our ways.   Your idea of "justice" in your example may not be God's idea at all...most likely is not.

Purgatory is not mankind's actions used to "square" things, in any event.  That is the heresy of works

Purgation is a continuation of our participation in the salvific and restorative acts of Jesus Christ.  Purgatory is an act of grace...and it is not OUR act.

M.

Offline stanley123

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Purgatory is not mankind's actions used to "square" things, in any event.  That is the heresy of works
I don't deny that some people say that I am a heretic. But regardless of whether someone calls me a heretic or not, I am only giving what appears to make sense to me. I don't see where anyone has explained  how it is fair for a disgusting criminal to be smiling and laughing in eternal joy in paradise, while the widow and her family, including her crippled and paralysed daughter, are suffering through years of horror and pain - a real hell on earth because of the crimes committed against them by this thief who has given no restitution at all. Nothing. Nada to the widow and her suffering family.  Some people might say this is heresy, but still,  I don't see the justice in this situation? What people say about this criminal going directly to heaven without any intermediate purification just does not make sense to me. I am not buying it. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 02:46:53 AM by stanley123 »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Do the Popes go to Purgatory?

The merits needed to operate the system of indulgences is the treasury of merits from two sources:

1. The merits gained by Christ by His sacrifice on the Cross

2.  The superfluous (supererogatory) merits of the Saints.  This is the excess of merits which they gained above and beyond what they needed for their salvation.


This treasury of merits is at the full disposal of the Popes.   Through the system of of indulgences they award these merits to other Catholics and they set the conditions for obtaining them.


So, do the Popes award themselves Plenary Indulgences?  Do they never go to Purgatory?

Offline Dave in McKinney

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Isn't it though? Prior to Christ's sacrifice, absolutely everyone who died went to Sheol.
Side bar discussion... Enoch & Elijah didn't go to sheol...
According to Jews though when the Messiah comes on the Mt. of Olives the dead will rise. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 08:27:00 AM by Dave in McKinney »

Offline Irish Hermit

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion.  

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise?  

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does nor ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education.  

He can be freed Stanley, IF, as with the good thief, Jesus chooses to release him by grace before he dies...If not he will release him by grace after he dies.

You have the right of it.  


Mary
No. I don't see that happening. Here is a widow with several children trying to make ends meet and her whole life savings have been robbed thus depriving her children of a better life and college education. On top of that, the thief has burned down her house, shot one of the children leaving her paralyzed and in a semi-coma for life,  and thereby left her and her children with a terrible hardship and hellish nightmare of suffering on earth for years and years. Now, you tell me that it is perfectly just and right that this thief, who has committed these terrible acts and given no restitution to this poor and decent widow and her family, simply goes to a Church, makes the sign of the cross, and beats his breast saying he is sorry and due to a traffic accident, he dies as he leave the Church and  he then goes straight to heaven and paradise without making any restitution and all the while the devout Catholic widow and her family and paralysed daughter have to endure years and years of terrible suffering and hardship and hunger on earth? Do you know what it is like to see your daughter in a semi-coma, paralyzed and helpless, and at the same time  have to endure this type of nightmarish hunger and starvation and poverty  imposed by a criminal element of society?  If God is a just God, why would He accept this criminal scot free into heaven and let this poor decent and devout Catholic widow and family suffer a veritable hell on earth for years and years?
I don;t see it. What makes sense to me is that the thief will have to undergo a time in Purgatory since he did not make any restitution to this widow and her family. Yes, he repented, and he will therefore avoid hell. But there was no restitution so there is still left a temporal punishment due to sin.
There are a lot of things which may not be explicitly mentioned in the Bible but nevertheless, they hold true.

 

I am afraid it does not matter if you see it happening or not.  The Church through the tradition of her saints and doctors teach us that God's justice is not our justice...or mercy.  It is also pretty clear in some of Paul's letters that we are not all graced in the same way, in the same measure.

It would make an interesting side discussion of its own.

M.
You haven't explained why it is fair to let the widow and her family suffer years and years a hellish life of poverty and suffering on earth, but let the disgusting criminal go scot free as he instantly at the moment of death. laughs with happiness and  goes into eternal bliss in paradise. So what you say with reference to Purgatory,  does not make sense to me.

I offered the example of the workers in the vineyard to indicate that its not simply my opinion that God's ways are not our ways.   Your idea of "justice" in your example may not be God's idea at all...most likely is not.

Purgatory is not mankind's actions used to "square" things, in any event.  That is the heresy of works

Would you say that the Pope is sailing close to heresy with his teaching below?  Or would you say that he is an outright heretic?

"The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."   " Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences, Pope Paul VI, 1967  
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html


Quote
Purgation is a continuation of our participation in the salvific and restorative acts of Jesus Christ.  Purgatory is an act of grace...and it is not OUR act.

I am sure that you could be right but since there is absolutely no magisterial definition to support what you are saying, you are probably incorrect and imposing your own preferred religious philosophy.

We see a contrary teaching to yours in the words of the Pope above in blue.   He mentions nothing of what you claim but he uses his magisterial authority to teach the faithful of the Catholic Church of expiation, fire, torments, purifying punishments.  These are the facts of what is taking place in Purgatory but I do not believe I have ever seen you mention them.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 08:36:59 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline elijahmaria

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion.  

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise?  

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does nor ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education.  

He can be freed Stanley, IF, as with the good thief, Jesus chooses to release him by grace before he dies...If not he will release him by grace after he dies.

You have the right of it.  


Mary
No. I don't see that happening. Here is a widow with several children trying to make ends meet and her whole life savings have been robbed thus depriving her children of a better life and college education. On top of that, the thief has burned down her house, shot one of the children leaving her paralyzed and in a semi-coma for life,  and thereby left her and her children with a terrible hardship and hellish nightmare of suffering on earth for years and years. Now, you tell me that it is perfectly just and right that this thief, who has committed these terrible acts and given no restitution to this poor and decent widow and her family, simply goes to a Church, makes the sign of the cross, and beats his breast saying he is sorry and due to a traffic accident, he dies as he leave the Church and  he then goes straight to heaven and paradise without making any restitution and all the while the devout Catholic widow and her family and paralysed daughter have to endure years and years of terrible suffering and hardship and hunger on earth? Do you know what it is like to see your daughter in a semi-coma, paralyzed and helpless, and at the same time  have to endure this type of nightmarish hunger and starvation and poverty  imposed by a criminal element of society?  If God is a just God, why would He accept this criminal scot free into heaven and let this poor decent and devout Catholic widow and family suffer a veritable hell on earth for years and years?
I don;t see it. What makes sense to me is that the thief will have to undergo a time in Purgatory since he did not make any restitution to this widow and her family. Yes, he repented, and he will therefore avoid hell. But there was no restitution so there is still left a temporal punishment due to sin.
There are a lot of things which may not be explicitly mentioned in the Bible but nevertheless, they hold true.

 

I am afraid it does not matter if you see it happening or not.  The Church through the tradition of her saints and doctors teach us that God's justice is not our justice...or mercy.  It is also pretty clear in some of Paul's letters that we are not all graced in the same way, in the same measure.

It would make an interesting side discussion of its own.

M.
You haven't explained why it is fair to let the widow and her family suffer years and years a hellish life of poverty and suffering on earth, but let the disgusting criminal go scot free as he instantly at the moment of death. laughs with happiness and  goes into eternal bliss in paradise. So what you say with reference to Purgatory,  does not make sense to me.

I offered the example of the workers in the vineyard to indicate that its not simply my opinion that God's ways are not our ways.   Your idea of "justice" in your example may not be God's idea at all...most likely is not.

Purgatory is not mankind's actions used to "square" things, in any event.  That is the heresy of works

Would you say that the Pope is sailing close to heresy with his teaching below?  Or would you say that he is an outright heretic?

"The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."   " Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences, Pope Paul VI, 1967  
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html


Quote
Purgation is a continuation of our participation in the salvific and restorative acts of Jesus Christ.  Purgatory is an act of grace...and it is not OUR act.

I am sure that you could be right but since there is absolutely no magisterial definition to support what you are saying, you are probably incorrect and imposing your own preferred religious philosophy.

We see a contrary teaching to yours in the words of the Pope above in blue.   He mentions nothing of what you claim but he uses his magisterial authority to teach the faithful of the Catholic Church of expiation, fire, torments, purifying punishments.  These are the facts of what is taking place in Purgatory but I do not believe I have ever seen you mention them.


I mentioned them several times in this thread.  I have offered formal teaching.

You have your drum. 

Pound on.

It does not make you either accurate or correct.

You hate Toll House theology with the same passion.

I think you are dead wrong.

Mary

Offline elijahmaria

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Purgatory is not mankind's actions used to "square" things, in any event.  That is the heresy of works
I don't deny that some people say that I am a heretic. But regardless of whether someone calls me a heretic or not, I am only giving what appears to make sense to me. I don't see where anyone has explained  how it is fair for a disgusting criminal to be smiling and laughing in eternal joy in paradise, while the widow and her family, including her crippled and paralysed daughter, are suffering through years of horror and pain - a real hell on earth because of the crimes committed against them by this thief who has given no restitution at all. Nothing. Nada to the widow and her suffering family.  Some people might say this is heresy, but still,  I don't see the justice in this situation? What people say about this criminal going directly to heaven without any intermediate purification just does not make sense to me. I am not buying it. 

I am not calling you a heretic.  That is silly.  I am saying that what you are touting as justice is the heresy of works.

It is a Protestant tendency.

Also it is clearly understood among Catholics who follow the saints and doctors of the Church that this ideal of equality in justice is a product of Reformed thinking and the Enlightenment.

Catholics understand that the good do not always get what they "deserve" in human terms, nor do the wicked always get their just deserts...again in human terms.

It is one test for being able to discern which Catholics pay attention to certain parts of Scripture, to the Fathers, particularly the desert fathers, and to the saints and doctors of the Church.

This world is NOT our home.  It is a fallen world and Jesus taught us NOT to expect human-bound equality from God...very explicitly in a very powerful gospel teaching.

Do I fault you for your thinking?  No.  It is the way you've been taught to see the world. 

There is another and more Catholic way.  That is all that I am saying to you.

M.

Offline Irish Hermit

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I am trying to understand the Orthodox view on this, so please excuse this question. Suppose that a thief breaks into the online bank account of a widow and steals money from the account  worth $35,000. the widow was going to use this money for tuition for her son and daughter at the local college. The thief then spends the money for a vacation of some sort. Then he goes to confession and says he is sorry for having stolen this money from the widow. The priest tells him to give restitution to the widow so that her son and daughter can go to college. The thief agrees, but then as he is leaving Church he is killed in a tragic traffic accident. Now according to Catholic belief, the thief will have to undergo Purgatory, since the widow is still out the $35000. What is the Orthodox view on this. Will the thief then go directly to heaven even though the widow's children will be deprived of a college education and will have to spend years working in a sweatshop factory trying to support their mother and at the same time trying to get enough money to get themselves an education in college?

What Christ has taught us about this is given to us in the parable of the Prodigal Son and his return to his father.  Read it and re-read it.   Not a bank account or a poor widow in sight.  God's relationship with us is NOT the same as ours to the aggrieved widow.

Christ's teaching is reinforced in the parable of the Two Debtors, one of whom was unconditionally forgiven his debt and had to make no repayments.

Both parables are really worth meditating on.  They do away with this legalistic approach of "consequences" and bank accounts.

Partly we may blame Anselm for the modern Catholic understanding of God as an aggrieved widow or an outraged ruler. In Anselm's formulation, our sins were like an offence against the honour of a mighty ruler. The ruler is not free to simply forgive the transgression; restitution must be made. This is a crucial new element in the story; earlier Christians believed that God the Father did, in fact, freely forgive us, like the father of the Prodigal Son - that parable really deserves very serious thought in connection with this discussion. 

There is no such thing as "temporal punishment" due to sin.   That is a modern construal of Roman Catholic theology and one which I would hope they are moving away from.  It will certainly have to be abandoned to achieve union with the Orthodox.


So according to the Orthodox teaching, there is no justice for the robbed widow and her children who have to spend years of tremendous hardship suffering in a sweatshop? But you reward the criminal with eternal paradise? 

Stan, you're pulling my leg? ;D  Hopefully there will be justice for the widow and her children.

But as I pointed out above, let's not confuse God's relationship with us with the widow or a broken window (the example someone used a day or two back.)

Look at the teachings of Christ in the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Two Debtors.  God forgives and does nor ask for "restitution" from us.  It is something which we, being finite beings, cannot accomplish anyway.
No. I don;t think it is right. That is why Purgatory makes a whole lot of sense to me. Yes, the thief is sorry and has repented and confessed his sin. But if he dies without paying back the devout Catholic widow and her children what he has taken from them, then he will still have to pay for his temporal debt due to this terrible sin. Otherwise, we do not see justice and we know that God is all just. I don;t see how you can say Oh well, he made a small mistake so we will reward him with eternal salvation on the spot, even though the widow and her children have to endure years and years of cruel torment and suffering working and sweating in one of these filthy sweatships. Where is your mercy and kindness and sense of justice for this poor devout  Catholic widow and her family whose life savings have been taken from her without any restitution?
Yes, this thief will escape hell, since he has confessed and shown repentance for his sin. But still, because God is an all Just God, the thief will not go scot free and enter into paradise while the widow and her family are suffering this horrible hell and torment on earth trying to make ends meet and at the same time trying to save for a college education. 

He can be freed Stanley, IF, as with the good thief, Jesus chooses to release him by grace before he dies...If not he will release him by grace after he dies.

You have the right of it. 


Mary
No. I don't see that happening. Here is a widow with several children trying to make ends meet and her whole life savings have been robbed thus depriving her children of a better life and college education. On top of that, the thief has burned down her house, shot one of the children leaving her paralyzed and in a semi-coma for life,  and thereby left her and her children with a terrible hardship and hellish nightmare of suffering on earth for years and years. Now, you tell me that it is perfectly just and right that this thief, who has committed these terrible acts and given no restitution to this poor and decent widow and her family, simply goes to a Church, makes the sign of the cross, and beats his breast saying he is sorry and due to a traffic accident, he dies as he leave the Church and  he then goes straight to heaven and paradise without making any restitution and all the while the devout Catholic widow and her family and paralysed daughter have to endure years and years of terrible suffering and hardship and hunger on earth? Do you know what it is like to see your daughter in a semi-coma, paralyzed and helpless, and at the same time  have to endure this type of nightmarish hunger and starvation and poverty  imposed by a criminal element of society?  If God is a just God, why would He accept this criminal scot free into heaven and let this poor decent and devout Catholic widow and family suffer a veritable hell on earth for years and years?
I don;t see it. What makes sense to me is that the thief will have to undergo a time in Purgatory since he did not make any restitution to this widow and her family. Yes, he repented, and he will therefore avoid hell. But there was no restitution so there is still left a temporal punishment due to sin.
There are a lot of things which may not be explicitly mentioned in the Bible but nevertheless, they hold true.

 

I am afraid it does not matter if you see it happening or not.  The Church through the tradition of her saints and doctors teach us that God's justice is not our justice...or mercy.  It is also pretty clear in some of Paul's letters that we are not all graced in the same way, in the same measure.

It would make an interesting side discussion of its own.

M.
You haven't explained why it is fair to let the widow and her family suffer years and years a hellish life of poverty and suffering on earth, but let the disgusting criminal go scot free as he instantly at the moment of death. laughs with happiness and  goes into eternal bliss in paradise. So what you say with reference to Purgatory,  does not make sense to me.

I offered the example of the workers in the vineyard to indicate that its not simply my opinion that God's ways are not our ways.   Your idea of "justice" in your example may not be God's idea at all...most likely is not.

Purgatory is not mankind's actions used to "square" things, in any event.  That is the heresy of works

Would you say that the Pope is sailing close to heresy with his teaching below?  Or would you say that he is an outright heretic?

"The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."   " Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences, Pope Paul VI, 1967 
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html


Quote
Purgation is a continuation of our participation in the salvific and restorative acts of Jesus Christ.  Purgatory is an act of grace...and it is not OUR act.

I am sure that you could be right but since there is absolutely no magisterial definition to support what you are saying, you are probably incorrect and imposing your own preferred religious philosophy.

We see a contrary teaching to yours in the words of the Pope above in blue.   He mentions nothing of what you claim but he uses his magisterial authority to teach the faithful of the Catholic Church of expiation, fire, torments, purifying punishments.  These are the facts of what is taking place in Purgatory but I do not believe I have ever seen you mention them.


I mentioned them several times in this thread.  I have offered formal teaching.


You have not offered formal teaching about Purgatory.  You frequently offer, as in this case, what we can see are your own our deeply held and even well reasoned convictions.   But they lack a magisterial definition and so you must not claim them as "formal teaching."  That tends to mislead the readers of this forum.


Offline elijahmaria

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You have not offered formal teaching about Purgatory.  You frequently offer, as in this case, what we can see are your own our deeply held and even well reasoned convictions.   But they lack a magisterial definition and so you must not claim them as "formal teaching."  That tends to mislead the readers of this forum.

See above.

I don't post any of my own ideas.  I post what I have learned formally from my Church, in formal classroom settings and by correspondence and by spiritual formation with experienced teachers and an exceptionally well educated and holy spiritual father.... :angel:  I even have competent and holy Orthodox clergy and monastics who teach me what they can when they have time.

I am most fortunate in many regards.  I don't really seek or need your approbation. 

I keep you daily in my prayers.  It is a serious and necessary spiritual exercise for me.  I hope in the end it does us both some good.

M.

Offline Irish Hermit

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  I don't really seek or need your approbation. 


I do not offer you my approbation. 

I simply ask that you distinguish clearly when you write to us between the opinions of yourself and your circle of Catholic/Orthodox teachers and the magisterial teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

Obiter dicens, I do find it very odd that while the Greek Catholics whom I know (bishops, priests and laity of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church) deny Purgatory and its underlying principles, you a Ruthenian Greek Catholic seem quite confused as to whether you adhere to Roman Catholic or Greek Catholic teaching.

Is Fr Kimel still contributing?   I remember he disagreed with you on some points of teaching in the past.

Offline elijahmaria

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  I don't really seek or need your approbation. 


I do not offer you my approbation. 

I simply ask that you distinguish clearly when you write to us between the opinions of yourself and your circle of Catholic/Orthodox teachers and the magisterial teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

Obiter dicens, I do find it very odd that while the Greek Catholics whom I know (bishops, priests and laity of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church) deny Purgatory and its underlying principles, you a Ruthenian Greek Catholic seem quite confused as to whether you adhere to Roman Catholic or Greek Catholic teaching.

Is Fr Kimel still contributing?   I remember he disagreed with you on some points of teaching in the past.

I adhere to the historic teaching of the Catholic Church, not its various and sundry perversions.

Mary

Offline Wyatt

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Isn't it though? Prior to Christ's sacrifice, absolutely everyone who died went to Sheol.
Side bar discussion... Enoch & Elijah didn't go to sheol...
According to Jews though when the Messiah comes on the Mt. of Olives the dead will rise. 
True, however notice that I said "everyone who died went to Sheol." Neither Enoch nor Elijah died.