Author Topic: Father quotes for papal supremacy ?  (Read 20883 times)

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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Father quotes for papal supremacy ?
« Reply #135 on: June 12, 2014, 11:08:05 AM »
What happened to the "r"s in my "whatever"s? :)
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Dan-Romania

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Re: Father quotes for papal supremacy ?
« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2014, 11:12:48 AM »
What happened to the "r"s in my "whatever"s? :)

shut up and bring on the World Cup /m\  8)
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Offline Regnare

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Re: Father quotes for papal supremacy ?
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2014, 07:26:52 PM »
Amen to Fabio's whole post.
Not only we have the counter-example of the Pope of Alexandria and his many superlative titles
And for anyone who doesn't know them, they are "Father of Fathers, Shepherd of Shepherds, Hierarch of Hierarchs, Ecumenical Judge of the Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church, and Thirteenth Apostle". The Coptic Pope Tawadros II's Wikipedia page also lists "Pillar and Defender of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church and of the Orthodox Doctrine". It's just fun to type out.
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust." --Psalm 91: 1-2

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Father quotes for papal supremacy ?
« Reply #138 on: June 12, 2014, 09:04:04 PM »
Amen to Fabio's whole post.
Not only we have the counter-example of the Pope of Alexandria and his many superlative titles
And for anyone who doesn't know them, they are "Father of Fathers, Shepherd of Shepherds, Hierarch of Hierarchs, Ecumenical Judge of the Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church, and Thirteenth Apostle". The Coptic Pope Tawadros II's Wikipedia page also lists "Pillar and Defender of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church and of the Orthodox Doctrine". It's just fun to type out.

We also have another hymn we chant for the Pope:

tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns%2FAnnual%2FVerses_of_Cymbals_and_Doxologies%2FCantor_Gad_Lewis%2FDoxologies%2F64.H.H._the_Patriarch.1791.mp3

Quote
You received the grace of Moses, the priesthood of Melchizedek, you received honor from our father Peter, the first of the apostles.

+ Christ lifted His right hand, on your head, He gave you the keys, of the Kingdom of heaven.


That you may govern, over the church, and that you may shepherd your people, in purity and righteousness.

+ As Paul the Apostle, has said "Likewise, as Melchizedek, Christ is also."

Likewise we glorify You, with David the Psalmist, You are the priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.

+ Pray to the Lord on our behalf, O our holy father the patriarch, Pope Abba (Tawadros) the high priest, that he may forgive us our sins.

If a Bishop is present:
+ Pray to the Lord on our behalf, O our saintly father, Appa (…) the Bishop, that He may forgive us our sins.

Notice how if a bishop is present, the same honor is chanted to him
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 09:05:19 PM by minasoliman »
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Father quotes for papal supremacy ?
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2014, 09:51:26 PM »
What I find amusing about RC arguments for papal supremacy is on one hand they claim the authority is scripturally supported.  But then they claim it took almost 2000 years to fully develop.  It makes it sound like St Peter woke up one morning in heaven in 1868 and realized "oh, THAT'S what he meant".

If Christ had truly meant the Church to be governed in such a monarchic fashion I think he would have made it much more clear from the start.

Tim

Speed of communication, money, language barrier and various other issues made the way the Church runs itself today a lot harder back then .

This debate is tired but I find the case for Papal authority overwhelming. I too, like you, find Orthodox arguments for an excessively decentralized ecclesiology untenable. But to you Orthodox it really seems tenable. So maybe there might be reason to believe what you believe.  Instead of sprouting childish untrue depictions of catholic points of view, why not consult us on why we believe what we believe. There are some intelligent people that are Catholics who believe our ecclesiology is correct. There must be a reason why the believe so right? 

We are not stupid. We have reason to believe what we believe and your portrayal of our belief is insulting. You don't even have to agree but it does no good to be disingenuous and/or ignorant of our reasoning behind our beliefs.
A lot of intelligent people that believe in Muhammad's claims of prophethood.  It doesn't make the claim any truer.

As for your invitation to indulge in revisionism to update history to your latest pronouncement of dogma, I'll pass.

I'm not saying that because intelligent people are Catholics, therefore Catholicism is true. I'm saying that there is a reason for is to be convicted in our beliefs. Familiarize yourself with it before. speaking about us

Why do you hate The Catholic Church so much? Why is it you can't ever say our name nor the names of our popes? Where does this hate come from?

It is not an act of hatred to tell you that your community is a parasynagogue and to deny that it is the Catholic Church. Isa, I am sure, does not call your community the Catholic Church, because he does not believe that it is the Catholic Church, but that our own Church, commonly called the Orthodox Church, is the Catholic Church spoken of by the fathers and the Creed. As much as you might dislike it, this is in fact an act of charity, as to do anything else would be to concede that what one believes to be delusion and falsehood are true, just as though receiving rebukes might to a fornicator or adulterer might be unpleasant, such rebukes are nevertheless acts of charity and not ones of hatred.

If Isa were to call your community the Catholic Church, while yet believing that it is a false parasynagogue and not the Catholic Church, in order to "be nice", this would in fact be a true act of hatred, as it means that he, while convinced that you are in error, would nevertheless be confirming you in what he believes to be erroneous by his words, for the sake of social niceties, instead of witnessing to what he believes to be the truth.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 09:54:08 PM by Cavaradossi »
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.