OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 22, 2014, 09:19:53 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values  (Read 7657 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« on: July 19, 2010, 09:59:12 PM »

Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values
Says Both Churches Can Work Together on Many Issues

http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english

MOSCOW, JULY 19, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Orthodox Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russias says he and Benedict XVI often see eye-to-eye on many issues, especially with regard to those of a moral nature.
 
The Patriarch said this in statements on the occasion of his trip to Ukraine, reported today by the Russian agency Interfax.
 
"I must say that the position of the present Pope, Benedict XVI, leaves room for optimism," he said in an interview on Ukrainian television channels, on the eve of his visit to that country.

To continue reading...
http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,359


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2010, 10:25:42 AM »

Cool.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 03:55:45 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.
Logged

PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,899


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 04:01:55 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?
Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion? Huh
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 04:16:09 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?
Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion? Huh

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

Mary
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2010, 04:20:01 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?
Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion? Huh

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

Mary
Must be the same place where you are finding those Orthodox clergy and laity all for union with the Vatican.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 04:21:21 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,899


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2010, 04:21:37 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?
Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion? Huh

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?
Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion.  If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference.  Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.
1.  Which Orthodox laity?
2.  Are you sure they weren't just voicing their own opinions and projecting them onto the Church?

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.
Can you give us some evidence?  What account are you referencing?  How do you conclude that it's not a product of poorly taught laity?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 04:24:30 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2010, 05:18:31 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?
Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion? Huh

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?
Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion.  If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference.  Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.
1.  Which Orthodox laity?
2.  Are you sure they weren't just voicing their own opinions and projecting them onto the Church?

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.
Can you give us some evidence?  What account are you referencing?  How do you conclude that it's not a product of poorly taught laity?

Before I say anything further I want it to be clear that I have not said that Orthodoxy approves abortion without qualification, what I have said is that unlike the Catholic Church who says that there is never a just cause for abortion, the teaching in Orthodoxy is that there can be just reason to abort.

You do agree that is what I am saying here?... because rather than "tattle" by giving names of people I've spoken with for nearly a generation,  I am going to direct you to a web site where a well recognized Orthodox ethicist has written in support of my contention.

But I will not go further till it is recognized precisely what I am saying...

Mary
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 05:57:39 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?
Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion? Huh

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?
Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion.  If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference.  Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.
1.  Which Orthodox laity?
2.  Are you sure they weren't just voicing their own opinions and projecting them onto the Church?

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.
Can you give us some evidence?  What account are you referencing?  How do you conclude that it's not a product of poorly taught laity?

Before I say anything further I want it to be clear that I have not said that Orthodoxy approves abortion without qualification, what I have said is that unlike the Catholic Church who says that there is never a just cause for abortion, the teaching in Orthodoxy is that there can be just reason to abort.

You do agree that is what I am saying here?... because rather than "tattle" by giving names of people I've spoken with for nearly a generation,  I am going to direct you to a web site where a well recognized Orthodox ethicist has written in support of my contention.

But I will not go further till it is recognized precisely what I am saying...

Mary

You may have missed it but this was a hotly debated topic in the press lately and the Catholic Church is quite clear, one may NOT abort a child, to save the mother.  The case was a woman with high blood pressure, my daughter gets it every time she carries a child, and a nun, a hospital administrator allowed an abortion on the grounds that the pregnancy was a danger to the mother.  Her bishop excommunicated her publicly.  The Church upheld the excommunication.

It is very clear that the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy do NOT have a common moral position on abortion or birth control.  To pretend that it is so, is just that, pretense.  And I have spoken with literally dozens of priests, bishops and laity who say precisely what Father Stanley says here and some even include rape as a just cause, particularly incest!!

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Fr. Stanley Harakas on abortion:

"It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brandsabortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce toabortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by whichabortion , with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life."
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 08:33:13 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?
Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion? Huh

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?
Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion.  If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference.  Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.
1.  Which Orthodox laity?
2.  Are you sure they weren't just voicing their own opinions and projecting them onto the Church?

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.
Can you give us some evidence?  What account are you referencing?  How do you conclude that it's not a product of poorly taught laity?

Before I say anything further I want it to be clear that I have not said that Orthodoxy approves abortion without qualification, what I have said is that unlike the Catholic Church who says that there is never a just cause for abortion, the teaching in Orthodoxy is that there can be just reason to abort.

You do agree that is what I am saying here?... because rather than "tattle" by giving names of people I've spoken with for nearly a generation,  I am going to direct you to a web site where a well recognized Orthodox ethicist has written in support of my contention.

But I will not go further till it is recognized precisely what I am saying...

Mary

You may have missed it but this was a hotly debated topic in the press lately and the Catholic Church is quite clear, one may NOT abort a child, to save the mother.  The case was a woman with high blood pressure, my daughter gets it every time she carries a child, and a nun, a hospital administrator allowed an abortion on the grounds that the pregnancy was a danger to the mother.  Her bishop excommunicated her publicly.  The Church upheld the excommunication.

It is very clear that the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy do NOT have a common moral position on abortion or birth control.  To pretend that it is so, is just that, pretense.  And I have spoken with literally dozens of priests, bishops and laity who say precisely what Father Stanley says here and some even include rape as a just cause, particularly incest!!

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Fr. Stanley Harakas on abortion:

"It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brandsabortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce toabortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by whichabortion , with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life."


ElijahMaria,  I am totally dumbstruck by the deceit of what you are writing in your attempt to claim the high moral ground.

Have you never heard of the well used Roman Catholic principle of "double effect" in such difficult moral questions?

It allows Catholics to procure an abortion when it is the "other" effect of a morally good effect/effort to save the life of the mother.  In other words it addresses just the same situations as Fr Harakas is describing - and I am sure that you know that.

Away with this cunning!   You disappoint me and I am truly unhappy at the deception you are trying to foist on the forum members. 
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 08:36:30 PM »

When Catholics May Abort


From the pages of the conservative magisterium-compliant Catholic Answers

"Abortion and Double Effect"

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609uan.asp


Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2010, 08:44:11 PM »

You may have missed it but this was a hotly debated topic in the press lately and the Catholic Church is quite clear, one may NOT abort a child, to save the mother.  The case was a woman with high blood pressure, my daughter gets it every time she carries a child, and a nun, a hospital administrator allowed an abortion on the grounds that the pregnancy was a danger to the mother.  Her bishop excommunicated her publicly.  The Church upheld the excommunication.

It is very clear that the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy do NOT have a common moral position on abortion or birth control.  To pretend that it is so, is just that, pretense.  And I have spoken with literally dozens of priests, bishops and laity who say precisely what Father Stanley says here and some even include rape as a just cause, particularly incest!!

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Fr. Stanley Harakas on abortion:

"It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brandsabortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce toabortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by whichabortion , with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life."
You are slipping apple slices into your orange juice. Performing procedures to save the mother's life, in which the baby may die, according to what I have seen from the Vatican and Orthodox ethicists, does not violate either's ethics. killing hte child outright violates both.

As for rape or incest, that's a non-starter.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2010, 08:48:22 PM »


From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

I have a circle of friends, Catholic priests and bishops, who tell me that the principle of double effect which allows the life of the mother to be preserved at the expense of kiling the child is a wicked invention of the devil and it must never be applied.

Catholic laity have told me of their horror at this sinful Catholic attitude to abortion which allows a child to be killed to save its mother.

In their view the poorly taught laity have been allowed to follow evil ways by using the principle of double effect. 
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2010, 08:52:12 PM »


From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

I have a circle of friends, Catholic priests and bishops, who tell me that the principle of double effect which allows the life of the mother to be preserved at the expense of kiling the child is a wicked invention of the devil and it must never be applied.

Catholic laity have told me of their horror at this sinful Catholic attitude to abortion which allows a child to be killed to save its mother.

In their view the poorly taught laity have been allowed to follow evil ways by using the principle of double effect. 
The principle of double effect isn't the problem: its when the scholasticism and casuitry worm their way in, and make economia the norm.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
visitor
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Let's just leave it at a Canonical one, okay?
Posts: 110


« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2010, 09:27:40 PM »

Oh, I don't know. What's innocence again? Does it have anything to do with very subtle divisions of concepts? I really can't remember.

Well, nevermind. It's boring to condemn people. 



Thinking now... what I do remember is that a Patriarch is a national leader as much as an ecclesiastical figure, so I guess that His Beatitude is doing his best to protect many millions of Christian souls over an indefinite period of time in all possible and even unforeseen circumstances... A tall order even in the most severe reduction. And he has to do it all without creating enemies for his flock, or frightening them, or embittering them. Many are in pain or face great temptations, and knowing that they will have to face angry or jealous pastors for their weakness will not bring the sheep home for care. Phariseeism is mean.  Embarrassed
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2010, 09:57:12 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?
Where do you get this slanderous idea that the Orthodox Church allows abortion? Huh

From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?
Because I've never heard anyone else ever make the claim that the Orthodox Church permits abortion.  If you can name these Orthodox priests and bishops who say this, maybe we'll have something we can cross-reference.  Additionally, the context in which they uttered these ideas will also give us a better idea of just what they were trying to communicate.

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.
1.  Which Orthodox laity?
2.  Are you sure they weren't just voicing their own opinions and projecting them onto the Church?

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.
Can you give us some evidence?  What account are you referencing?  How do you conclude that it's not a product of poorly taught laity?

Before I say anything further I want it to be clear that I have not said that Orthodoxy approves abortion without qualification, what I have said is that unlike the Catholic Church who says that there is never a just cause for abortion, the teaching in Orthodoxy is that there can be just reason to abort.

You do agree that is what I am saying here?... because rather than "tattle" by giving names of people I've spoken with for nearly a generation,  I am going to direct you to a web site where a well recognized Orthodox ethicist has written in support of my contention.

But I will not go further till it is recognized precisely what I am saying...

Mary

You may have missed it but this was a hotly debated topic in the press lately and the Catholic Church is quite clear, one may NOT abort a child, to save the mother.  The case was a woman with high blood pressure, my daughter gets it every time she carries a child, and a nun, a hospital administrator allowed an abortion on the grounds that the pregnancy was a danger to the mother.  Her bishop excommunicated her publicly.  The Church upheld the excommunication.

It is very clear that the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy do NOT have a common moral position on abortion or birth control.  To pretend that it is so, is just that, pretense.  And I have spoken with literally dozens of priests, bishops and laity who say precisely what Father Stanley says here and some even include rape as a just cause, particularly incest!!

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Fr. Stanley Harakas on abortion:

"It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brandsabortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce toabortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by whichabortion , with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life."


ElijahMaria,  I am totally dumbstruck by the deceit of what you are writing in your attempt to claim the high moral ground.

Have you never heard of the well used Roman Catholic principle of "double effect" in such difficult moral questions?

It allows Catholics to procure an abortion when it is the "other" effect of a morally good effect/effort to save the life of the mother.  In other words it addresses just the same situations as Fr Harakas is describing - and I am sure that you know that.

Away with this cunning!   You disappoint me and I am truly unhappy at the deception you are trying to foist on the forum members. 


Do you remember when you and I asked Orthodox priests what they MEAN by the real presence?  Do you remember the answers we got?  All the words were in place but the meaning was missing?  Do you remember that?

Well...cunning or no cunning....I have asked the questions over the years and gotten the answers.

Father Stanley does not mean what the Catholic Church means.  No Orthodox priest that I've EVER talked to about the subject thinks that he does, and most will tell you that incest is also the second great exception.

So please do not tell me about my cunning.

Orthodoxy does not teach what the Catholic Church teaches about abortion or contraception....not yet in any event.

Mary
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2010, 10:08:47 PM »


From Orthodox priests and bishops who say that there are times when it is warranted.  Why do you ask?

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

I will grant you that there's more than one account of this however the account that says there are times when abortion is warranted is not a product of poorly taught laity.

I have a circle of friends, Catholic priests and bishops, who tell me that the principle of double effect which allows the life of the mother to be preserved at the expense of kiling the child is a wicked invention of the devil and it must never be applied.

Catholic laity have told me of their horror at this sinful Catholic attitude to abortion which allows a child to be killed to save its mother.

In their view the poorly taught laity have been allowed to follow evil ways by using the principle of double effect. 
The principle of double effect isn't the problem: its when the scholasticism and casuitry worm their way in, and make economia the norm.

Precisely!!  And this is the first time and probably the last that I will ever agree with you on anything concerning our respective confessions!!  But you are right here about Orthodoxy without a shadow of a doubt on my part.

Father Stanely and the Orthodox Church do not teach the arch heretic's jesuitical nonsense that there is a difference between treating the mother, in which case the child MAY die, and KILLING the child so that the mother MIGHT live...where in the latter case the child ALWAYS dies.

Ya'll don't need to split those hairs and engage that useless casuistry worm!!

The only other little worm in this is that in the jesuitical way of treating the mother....sometimes the kid gets to live too!!  

Mary

Logged

ICXCNIKA
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 661



« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2010, 11:28:47 PM »

I guess I would be very surprised if an Orthodox Priest gave communion to an EC or anyone else for that matter. I have been to two Orthodox Churches that had ECs present and they never received communion. And almost always the priest makes an announcement that only Orthodox Christians that are properly prepared may receive. Perhaps Fr Ambrose or another Orthodox Priest can tell us what their experience is on this matter.   
Logged
visitor
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Let's just leave it at a Canonical one, okay?
Posts: 110


« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2010, 07:42:30 AM »

Hey Catholics! Give us a brake, dears.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2010, 07:57:57 AM »


Father Stanley does not mean what the Catholic Church means.  No Orthodox priest that I've EVER talked to about the subject thinks that he does, and most will tell you that incest is also the second great exception.


God spare us, but you seem to mix with a group of evil Orthodox priests.   It is NOT the Church's teaching that we may kill babies because their fathers are their grandfathers or their uncles.  We do NOT kill children to punish their fathers.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,359


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2010, 10:08:06 AM »

Hey Catholics! Give us a brake, dears.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?
It's disturbing that the Catholic Church spends so much energy opposing the modern Holocaust?
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,359


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2010, 10:08:37 AM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.
I was unaware of the abortion issue.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
IXOYE
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 731



« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2010, 10:14:37 AM »

Hey Catholics! Give us a brake, dears.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Amen to that!
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2010, 11:32:11 AM »

Hey Catholics! Give us a brake, dears.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Frankly, I don't care what you want to see.  Evil is evil.

Many of us, Catholic dears, believe that all sexual evils, which include abortion, are the result of a contraceptive mentality, and an indulgence of all passions including gluttony...So I am a Catholic of the fasting sort and there are others like me believe it or not.   

So when Catholics finally realize that their patrimony of ascetic discipline is the answer to man's humanity to man in a fallen state, then perhaps we'll all be getting somewhere.

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

Like you, I want to see a bit of sustained evidence.

Mary
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2010, 11:49:40 AM »

Hey Catholics! Give us a brake, dears.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Frankly, I don't care what you want to see.  Evil is evil.

Many of us, Catholic dears, believe that all sexual evils, which include abortion, are the result of a contraceptive mentality, and an indulgence of all passions including gluttony...So I am a Catholic of the fasting sort and there are others like me believe it or not.   

So when Catholics finally realize that their patrimony of ascetic discipline is the answer to man's humanity to man in a fallen state, then perhaps we'll all be getting somewhere.

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

Like you, I want to see a bit of sustained evidence.

Mary
LOL. Who are you, that anything needs to be proved? You're the one that is convinced we, the Church, needs your Vatican.  Not us.

You might ask the Vatican to do some work on the patristics of that abortion/artificial contraception nexus:Humanae Vitae is devoid of any.  Just "magesterium."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2010, 11:55:54 AM »

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

This has been hashed to death in other threads, but you'll find statements from hierarchs affirming the same thing.
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/10/a-patriarch-who-generally-speaking-respects-human-life/

As primate and overseer, +Kirill is making all the right noises on the issue.
Logged
visitor
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Let's just leave it at a Canonical one, okay?
Posts: 110


« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2010, 12:09:28 PM »

Hey Catholics! Give us a brake, dears.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Frankly, I don't care what you want to see.  Evil is evil.

Many of us, Catholic dears, believe that all sexual evils, which include abortion, are the result of a contraceptive mentality, and an indulgence of all passions including gluttony...So I am a Catholic of the fasting sort and there are others like me believe it or not.   

So when Catholics finally realize that their patrimony of ascetic discipline is the answer to man's humanity to man in a fallen state, then perhaps we'll all be getting somewhere.

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

Like you, I want to see a bit of sustained evidence.

Mary


Theory versus praxis, madame.

Mozart was mentioned on another thread. Interesting character. He made cultural productions (viz. music) like no one else of his time, and his music theory was flawless. He was also debauched and generally untrustworthy on a personal basis.

As a fellow once said, it is possible to be more Catholic than the Pope. I hope that you are just that. But to propagandize with this bloody red herring (which does in fact detract from the child rape issue whether it is intended to or not) casts a shadow of doubt on your authenticity. Sorry. It just does.

Respectfully,
visitor
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2010, 02:15:06 PM »

Orthodox laity have told me that the stricture against abortion is not as strict as that in the Catholic Church.

This has been hashed to death in other threads, but you'll find statements from hierarchs affirming the same thing.
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/10/a-patriarch-who-generally-speaking-respects-human-life/

As primate and overseer, +Kirill is making all the right noises on the issue.


Thanks John for bringing this to bear, but I fully expect this is not news to any of the active Orthodox participants in this thread.  I have said nothing about it because I like to watch the elephant in the living room just as much as they do  angel

M.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2010, 02:15:06 PM »

Hey Catholics! Give us a brake, dears.

The Vatican's preoccupation with abortion is a little disturbing, especially given the fact that the entire establishment of the Roman Catholic Church has proven literally hundreds of thousands of times in the modern era that they have no concern whatever for the welfare of children. The Popes have even been complicit in vast cover-ups of of child rape.

For my part, I don't want to see any more anti-abortion propaganda from Catholics until their "Church" ceases to be a criminal organization. Okay?

Frankly, I don't care what you want to see.  Evil is evil.

Many of us, Catholic dears, believe that all sexual evils, which include abortion, are the result of a contraceptive mentality, and an indulgence of all passions including gluttony...So I am a Catholic of the fasting sort and there are others like me believe it or not.   

So when Catholics finally realize that their patrimony of ascetic discipline is the answer to man's humanity to man in a fallen state, then perhaps we'll all be getting somewhere.

In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

Like you, I want to see a bit of sustained evidence.

Mary


Theory versus praxis, madame.

Mozart was mentioned on another thread. Interesting character. He made cultural productions (viz. music) like no one else of his time, and his music theory was flawless. He was also debauched and generally untrustworthy on a personal basis.

As a fellow once said, it is possible to be more Catholic than the Pope. I hope that you are just that. But to propagandize with this bloody red herring (which does in fact detract from the child rape issue whether it is intended to or not) casts a shadow of doubt on your authenticity. Sorry. It just does.

Respectfully,
visitor

Note the title of this thread:     
Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong.  There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.

All you have done is further prove my point.   angel

I don't know why the Patriarch bothers.  He should spend more time on this Forum.  Here is where he'd find his answers to the moral crisis.  Not with the Vatican!!   Bloody red herrings and all.  Perhaps he might even be able to forget that Orthodoxy has an issue with sexual abuse at all if he spent more time here.

Did you see where a Lutheran bishop just resigned when it became apparent that she sheltered a sexual predator?

I found that interesting because when the sexual predator stories began to break in the Catholic Church, there was an evangelical Lutheran pastor insisting that the Lutheran Church should be consulted because they had been enforcing zero tolerance for a long time. 

My guess is that the Orthodox feel the same way, and more.  It is always good to know that there are some confessions out here that have no difficulties with sexual predators of any kind.

Only question I have is that when the Catholic Church succeeds in keeping this kind of individual out of their seminaries..which they are working very hard to do now...where will they go then?

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2010, 05:38:18 PM »


In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

Unfortunately you seem to have chosen for yourself as friends Orthodox priests and even bishops who are perverted and sick of soul.

You say that they teach that there is no reason at all for the schism but there is complete agreement in our doctrines.  These anonymous priest friends say the schism continues because of our stubbornness and our preference to keep it going.

These perverted priests also tell you that Orthodox approve of abortion.  God alone knows how you reconcile that with the claim that they say our doctrines are identical.

In short, I don't know with whom you are mixing but these things and others you have mentioned prove that your priest friends are not worth the time of day.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2010, 05:43:43 PM »


In the meantime Orthodoxy can use some work on the abortion/artificial contraception nexus...and until I see better proof than the protests I am seeing here I will go with what I have seen in the majority out in the real world.

You could start work on your chosen circle of Orthodox priests who are apparently bipolar and

1.  Approve of abortion

2.  Disapprove of contraception

I begin to doubt that these people exist.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2010, 05:55:07 PM »


This has been hashed to death in other threads, but you'll find statements from hierarchs affirming the same thing.
http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/10/a-patriarch-who-generally-speaking-respects-human-life/


This is not "hierarchs", John, in the plural.  This is only one bishop, Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople.

I sometimes use against him this reported pro-choice statement of his.

It would be a terrible thing to present him as typical on this. He's not.  He's atypical. He's aberrant. He's heretical. Think of him as our "Milengo in the living room."

Frankly, if what is reported is truly what he said he could be looking at a "please stand on the left with the goats" when the day of judgement comes.

And frankly, I don't understand why both Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict like to cuddle up with Patriarch who is reportedly pro-choice.

Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2010, 06:01:02 PM »


Note the title of this thread:   
Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong.  There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.


But you keep insisting that nothing separates us doctrinally and that it is only the sinful pride and stubbornness of the Orthodox which keeps the schism going. 


You want to join your Church with a Church with which your own shares no moral parity?!  Is that desirable? Is that even rational?  Shouldn't you be in the ranks of the anti-unionists to spare your Church from infection with Orthodox immorality?
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,990


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2010, 06:46:17 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.

Mary,

It is incorrect to say the Orthodox allow abortion.  I have never read anything by the Orthodox that states that abortion is anything but sin.  Where they differ is in how they react.  The Catholic Church proclaims automatic excommunication for the woman who procurs an abortion even though it recognizes there may be external factors which limit her culpability.  The Orthodox Church recognizes those same factors and does not automatically excommunicate her.  She will, however,  undoubtedly be given a strict epitemia, possibly even the ten years St. Basil lays down in his canons.  The two positions are a perfect example of akribeia and economia.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,299



« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2010, 07:53:55 PM »

Mary,

I found this great set of audio lectures from Fr. Josiah Trenham (a priest of the Antiochian Archdiocese) on marriage and sexual matters. Lecture 3 discusses contraception. I think you would really love to hear what he has to say about it. He calls out the inconsistencies in the approach of some modern Orthodox "theologians" on the subject. I was inspired by listening to all of his talks and found them very helpful.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2010, 09:47:21 PM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.

Mary,

It is incorrect to say the Orthodox allow abortion.  I have never read anything by the Orthodox that states that abortion is anything but sin.  Where they differ is in how they react.  The Catholic Church proclaims automatic excommunication for the woman who procurs an abortion even though it recognizes there may be external factors which limit her culpability.  The Orthodox Church recognizes those same factors and does not automatically excommunicate her.  She will, however,  undoubtedly be given a strict epitemia, possibly even the ten years St. Basil lays down in his canons.  The two positions are a perfect example of akribeia and economia.

Fr. Deacon Lance

All right.  I'll back away from saying that "Orthodoxy" permits abortion under certain circumstances to say that there are Orthodox clergy and laity who believe that abortion is permitted 1) in an effort to save the mother's life MEANING that a child can be killed to save the mother rather than treating the mother in the hopes that both might live, even if the chances are not good for the child, and I know this because I ask the question to refine the answer, and 2) in cases of rape, particularly incest.

I won't back away from this statement because I have heard it too many times in my lifetime to think it is a chance occurrence.  So the best I can surmise is that somebody is dropping the ball...somewhere.

You may not like that but that is my experience and I have heard other Orthodox faithful decry this attitude because they too know it to be fact and real among Orthodox faithful and I have one very good friend who says that Orthodox bishops do not do enough to make the situation clear, and she wishes that they would do so.

You'll just have to get in line to shoot the messenger.

M.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2010, 10:34:43 PM »

I found this great set of audio lectures from Fr. Josiah Trenham (a priest of the Antiochian Archdiocese) on marriage and sexual matters. Lecture 3 discusses contraception. I think you would really love to hear what he has to say about it. He calls out the inconsistencies in the approach of some modern Orthodox "theologians" on the subject. I was inspired by listening to all of his talks and found them very helpful.

I see that Fr Trenham forbids all forms of birth control.

Is he permitted by his bishop (Bishop Joseph of the Antiochian Diocese of Los Angeles ) to prohibit his parishioners from using any birth control?   Or maybe the bishop has forbidden birth control throughout the diocese?  Does anybody know the teaching of the Antiochian bishops?
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2010, 10:42:11 PM »

All right.  I'll back away from saying that "Orthodoxy" permits abortion under certain circumstances to say that there are Orthodox clergy and laity who believe that abortion is permitted 1) in an effort to save the mother's life MEANING that a child can be killed to save the mother rather than treating the mother in the hopes that both might live, even if the chances are not good for the child, and I know this because I ask the question to refine the answer, and 2) in cases of rape, particularly incest.

Mary,  we are loosing faith in this anomymous band of Orthodox clergy whom you trot out in support of your various opinions of Orthodox teaching.

I could just as well claim that there is no moral parity with Catholicism because there are Catholic clergy and laity I know who totally support polygamy, pre-nuptual sex, consensual incest, and other kinds of non-traditional sexual relationships.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 10:51:14 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2010, 10:57:47 PM »


Note the title of this thread:   
Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong.  There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.


Yes, you may be right.  The Patriarch is wrong.  Looking at the immorality which we see pervading large segments of the Catholic world, its laity, its priests and even its bishops, it presents a nauseating picture.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2010, 11:50:16 PM »

Mary,

I found this great set of audio lectures from Fr. Josiah Trenham (a priest of the Antiochian Archdiocese) on marriage and sexual matters. Lecture 3 discusses contraception. I think you would really love to hear what he has to say about it. He calls out the inconsistencies in the approach of some modern Orthodox "theologians" on the subject. I was inspired by listening to all of his talks and found them very helpful.

In Christ,
Andrew

Thank you so much!!!  I was not aware of these lectures. 

Mary
Logged

stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2010, 02:57:13 AM »

Patriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values
Says Both Churches Can Work Together on Many Issues
Personally, I like this idea of the Orthodox Patriarch where Catholics and Orthodox work together on many issues. It is true that we are two separate Churches, and there are differences, some serious, others not so serious, but why cannot Catholics and Orthodox at least work together as witnesses to the Gospel and our shared faith in Our Divine Savior ?
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2010, 03:16:06 AM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 03:17:14 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,899


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2010, 05:10:35 AM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."
That sounds about right, at least what you say about Fr. John Schroedel.  Seems to match some of the conversations I had with him before he became a priest.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,109


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2010, 07:16:14 AM »

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong.  There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.

If I didn't know where you were going with that statement, I'd say, "I agree," without any qualifiers.  Alas, as it is another high-handed slap at the Orthodox, I'll pass and remind you that for every 1% of the Orthodox population that disregards true Orthodox teaching for their own personally-defined morality, there is at least 1% of the Roman Catholic population that does likewise.

Perhaps he might even be able to forget that Orthodoxy has an issue with sexual abuse at all if he spent more time here.

Hmmm - the sarcasm is dripping, but I still feel compelled to report this post specifically for this statement which, IMO, is libelous against the forum at the least.

Did you see where a Lutheran bishop just resigned when it became apparent that she sheltered a sexual predator?

I found that interesting because when the sexual predator stories began to break in the Catholic Church, there was an evangelical Lutheran pastor insisting that the Lutheran Church should be consulted because they had been enforcing zero tolerance for a long time.

Hmmm.  So?

My guess is that the Orthodox feel the same way, and more.  It is always good to know that there are some confessions out here that have no difficulties with sexual predators of any kind.

Only question I have is that when the Catholic Church succeeds in keeping this kind of individual out of their seminaries..which they are working very hard to do now...where will they go then?

I'm wondering where you're getting your information from.  I can speak from personal experience that our theological school in Brookline has been performing psychological evaluations on incoming seminarians for at least 7-8 years, and had been doing it over periods even before that.  The Archdiocese has a separate one conducted as part of the pre-Ordination process.  You're grasping at straws, and potentially committing a crime (libel) while doing so.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2010, 11:24:36 AM »

My contention is that the Patriarch is substantially wrong.  There is no parity morally between Catholics and Orthodox.

If I didn't know where you were going with that statement, I'd say, "I agree," without any qualifiers.  Alas, as it is another high-handed slap at the Orthodox, I'll pass and remind you that for every 1% of the Orthodox population that disregards true Orthodox teaching for their own personally-defined morality, there is at least 1% of the Roman Catholic population that does likewise.

Perhaps he might even be able to forget that Orthodoxy has an issue with sexual abuse at all if he spent more time here.

Hmmm - the sarcasm is dripping, but I still feel compelled to report this post specifically for this statement which, IMO, is libelous against the forum at the least.

Did you see where a Lutheran bishop just resigned when it became apparent that she sheltered a sexual predator?

I found that interesting because when the sexual predator stories began to break in the Catholic Church, there was an evangelical Lutheran pastor insisting that the Lutheran Church should be consulted because they had been enforcing zero tolerance for a long time.

Hmmm.  So?

My guess is that the Orthodox feel the same way, and more.  It is always good to know that there are some confessions out here that have no difficulties with sexual predators of any kind.

Only question I have is that when the Catholic Church succeeds in keeping this kind of individual out of their seminaries..which they are working very hard to do now...where will they go then?

I'm wondering where you're getting your information from.  I can speak from personal experience that our theological school in Brookline has been performing psychological evaluations on incoming seminarians for at least 7-8 years, and had been doing it over periods even before that.  The Archdiocese has a separate one conducted as part of the pre-Ordination process.  You're grasping at straws, and potentially committing a crime (libel) while doing so.

A crime Father?  You are accusing me of a crime?  Could you be much more specific here and let me know if there are to be formal charges?

I believe I have a right to defend myself and time to prepare do I not?

Are you denying that there are Orthodox bishops and pastors who believe that there are certain circumstances where abortion is justified?

Are you denying that Orthodox jurisdictions believe themselves to be relatively free of sexual predators by comparison to Catholic jurisdictions?

Because so far that is the only potentially criminal things I have said.

And I am not playing tit for tat because I think that what has happened in the Catholic Church is a horrible sin.  I also think that there's more work to be done before Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church can claim a mutual moral ground.  Now if that is a crime them I will stand before God and country and defend the truth of it.

Mary E. Lanser
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2010, 01:02:42 PM »

Mary said: "Perhaps he might even be able to forget that Orthodoxy has an issue with sexual abuse at all if he spent more time here."

Dear Forum Members and Father Ambrose in particular,

Having written to Father George quietly I see the the statement above was the real fly in the ointment and I am sorry that I gave "voice" to it in fact.   

I was actually frustrated with some of your responses to me Father Ambrose and I let it out in print, so I do apologize to you because I know that you have the souls of the faithful at heart in all you try to do and say.  But the issue is one that cries out for real and active promulgation of the hard truths of our shared moral traditions with respect to sexual behaviors and their consequences, and to call me cunning or to suggest that I am fabricating things is not helpful in any dialogue.

I was being provocative when I said that Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church do not share moral parity.  In both cases our practice makes it clear that we share principles but that we fall far far and away too short of making those principles part of our daily lives.

So please pardon and forgive my passionate rendering of something that I care very deeply about.  Over the years, rather than becoming numbed to the realization that clergy and laity have clay feet, I become even more sensitive as I grow older and see and experience more and realize how fleeting the pleasures of sinful passions and how terrible are their consequences.

It is not impossible to exercise self-control.  In fact, the rare cases when we can do so gracefully are quite lovely for all concerned and the effects go well beyond our line of sight and sound. 

That's all.

Mary

Logged

Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,299



« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2010, 06:52:13 PM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."
Be that as it may, my priest teaches that contraception is not the way to have a godly marriage as do many priests in our diocese. His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph teaches likewise. But I understand that your point was that the aforementioned priests are not teaching what their bishops teach.

I may be poking a hornets nest here (and please forgive me if I am) but are they justified in disagreeing with their bishops if their bishops are wrong? Did not many people die as martyrs during the iconoclast persecution? Was not a good majority of the Church subscribing to Arianism in the 4th century? Surely in those times there were presbyters as well as laity that disagreed with their hierarchs.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,899


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2010, 07:55:20 PM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."
Be that as it may, my priest teaches that contraception is not the way to have a godly marriage as do many priests in our diocese. His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph teaches likewise. But I understand that your point was that the aforementioned priests are not teaching what their bishops teach.

I may be poking a hornets nest here (and please forgive me if I am) but are they justified in disagreeing with their bishops if their bishops are wrong? Did not many people die as martyrs during the iconoclast persecution? Was not a good majority of the Church subscribing to Arianism in the 4th century? Surely in those times there were presbyters as well as laity that disagreed with their hierarchs.

In Christ,
Andrew
I think you're assigning to your definition of "disagree" more of a concept of actual disobedience than I am.  I suppose, therefore, that a priest can disagree with his bishop as much as he wants... as long as the priest ultimately puts aside his disagreement and maintains obedience to his bishop when called upon to do so.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2010, 08:18:57 PM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."
Be that as it may, my priest teaches that contraception is not the way to have a godly marriage as do many priests in our diocese. His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph teaches likewise. But I understand that your point was that the aforementioned priests are not teaching what their bishops teach.

I may be poking a hornets nest here (and please forgive me if I am) but are they justified in disagreeing with their bishops if their bishops are wrong? Did not many people die as martyrs during the iconoclast persecution? Was not a good majority of the Church subscribing to Arianism in the 4th century? Surely in those times there were presbyters as well as laity that disagreed with their hierarchs.

In Christ,
Andrew

I suppose that I look at it from a pastoral point of view and if parishioners are being told by their parish priest that they may not use any form of birth control then they will probably simply 1) disobey their parish priest or 2) start attending another parish where the priest actually teaches in conformity with what his bishop teaches.

It is worrying if the unity of a diocese is under attack from priests with dissident teachings.

It is also worrying if young and inexperienced convert priests are arrogating to themselves the teaching function which belongs to the episcopate.  Fr Josiah Trenham has been a parish priest for only two years.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 08:22:36 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2010, 10:01:14 PM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."
Be that as it may, my priest teaches that contraception is not the way to have a godly marriage as do many priests in our diocese. His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph teaches likewise. But I understand that your point was that the aforementioned priests are not teaching what their bishops teach.

I may be poking a hornets nest here (and please forgive me if I am) but are they justified in disagreeing with their bishops if their bishops are wrong? Did not many people die as martyrs during the iconoclast persecution? Was not a good majority of the Church subscribing to Arianism in the 4th century? Surely in those times there were presbyters as well as laity that disagreed with their hierarchs.

In Christ,
Andrew

I suppose that I look at it from a pastoral point of view and if parishioners are being told by their parish priest that they may not use any form of birth control then they will probably simply 1) disobey their parish priest or 2) start attending another parish where the priest actually teaches in conformity with what his bishop teaches.

It is worrying if the unity of a diocese is under attack from priests with dissident teachings.

It is also worrying if young and inexperienced convert priests are arrogating to themselves the teaching function which belongs to the episcopate.  Fr Josiah Trenham has been a parish priest for only two years.

May his tribe increase and may his kind of thinking with respect to birth control re-root itself in Orthodoxy.

Mary
Logged

stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2010, 12:00:16 AM »

So is it true that the Orthodox church has changed its teaching on artificial birth control?
This might be a point of disagreement between RC and EO, but the fact is that according to the reports, there are a great number of Catholics who do not follow the official teaching on this. Anyway, I don't see this as a stumbling block which would prevent Catholics and Orthodox from working together.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2010, 12:28:44 AM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."
Be that as it may, my priest teaches that contraception is not the way to have a godly marriage as do many priests in our diocese. His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph teaches likewise. But I understand that your point was that the aforementioned priests are not teaching what their bishops teach.

I may be poking a hornets nest here (and please forgive me if I am) but are they justified in disagreeing with their bishops if their bishops are wrong? Did not many people die as martyrs during the iconoclast persecution? Was not a good majority of the Church subscribing to Arianism in the 4th century? Surely in those times there were presbyters as well as laity that disagreed with their hierarchs.

In Christ,
Andrew

I suppose that I look at it from a pastoral point of view and if parishioners are being told by their parish priest that they may not use any form of birth control then they will probably simply 1) disobey their parish priest or 2) start attending another parish where the priest actually teaches in conformity with what his bishop teaches.

It is worrying if the unity of a diocese is under attack from priests with dissident teachings.

It is also worrying if young and inexperienced convert priests are arrogating to themselves the teaching function which belongs to the episcopate.  Fr Josiah Trenham has been a parish priest for only two years.

May his tribe increase and may his kind of thinking with respect to birth control re-root itself in Orthodoxy.

Well, if the OCA and American Antiochia wish to exhaust their female stock in an avalanche of birthgiving, good luck to them.    Shocked
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2010, 12:48:24 AM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."
Be that as it may, my priest teaches that contraception is not the way to have a godly marriage as do many priests in our diocese. His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph teaches likewise. But I understand that your point was that the aforementioned priests are not teaching what their bishops teach.

I may be poking a hornets nest here (and please forgive me if I am) but are they justified in disagreeing with their bishops if their bishops are wrong? Did not many people die as martyrs during the iconoclast persecution? Was not a good majority of the Church subscribing to Arianism in the 4th century? Surely in those times there were presbyters as well as laity that disagreed with their hierarchs.

In Christ,
Andrew

I suppose that I look at it from a pastoral point of view and if parishioners are being told by their parish priest that they may not use any form of birth control then they will probably simply 1) disobey their parish priest or 2) start attending another parish where the priest actually teaches in conformity with what his bishop teaches.

It is worrying if the unity of a diocese is under attack from priests with dissident teachings.

It is also worrying if young and inexperienced convert priests are arrogating to themselves the teaching function which belongs to the episcopate.  Fr Josiah Trenham has been a parish priest for only two years.
I've priviledged to have Fr. Reardon as my pastor, and know his views on this issue.  I can't say that they are terribly different, if at all, from most, if not all, of the parishioners.  I haven't heard Bishop Mark speak on the issue, so I don't know what his views are.  Not being married anymore at present, it isn't as pressing an issue as it was.

There is option 3), which I've seen ( Shocked, I mean heard first hand): parishoners change their minds.

If Fr. Pat teaches the Theology of the Body, he hides it well.  His agreement with much of it is in ful view, though.

If it is a problem in the Diocese, I'm not aware of it.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Sloga
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 830



« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2010, 01:05:51 AM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."
Be that as it may, my priest teaches that contraception is not the way to have a godly marriage as do many priests in our diocese. His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph teaches likewise. But I understand that your point was that the aforementioned priests are not teaching what their bishops teach.

I may be poking a hornets nest here (and please forgive me if I am) but are they justified in disagreeing with their bishops if their bishops are wrong? Did not many people die as martyrs during the iconoclast persecution? Was not a good majority of the Church subscribing to Arianism in the 4th century? Surely in those times there were presbyters as well as laity that disagreed with their hierarchs.

In Christ,
Andrew

I suppose that I look at it from a pastoral point of view and if parishioners are being told by their parish priest that they may not use any form of birth control then they will probably simply 1) disobey their parish priest or 2) start attending another parish where the priest actually teaches in conformity with what his bishop teaches.

It is worrying if the unity of a diocese is under attack from priests with dissident teachings.

It is also worrying if young and inexperienced convert priests are arrogating to themselves the teaching function which belongs to the episcopate.  Fr Josiah Trenham has been a parish priest for only two years.

May his tribe increase and may his kind of thinking with respect to birth control re-root itself in Orthodoxy.

Mary

May the Vatican's morally justified stance on contraception continue to aid the deaths of millions of people in Africa (including babies and children) due to AIDS!
Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2010, 01:57:06 AM »

May the Vatican's morally justified stance on contraception continue to aid the deaths of millions of people in Africa (including babies and children) due to AIDS!

There is hard evidence that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS.  That condoms decrease the incidence of sex is a lie.

Professor Green from Harvard provided some of that evidence when the press attacked the Pope on his trip to Africa.  Professor Green ran the AIDS project at Harvard and he sent a letter to the NYT saying that people on the ground in Africa, teachers and health workers and nurses were all calling for more advertisements for abstinence as the answer to stopping AIDS and they were asking for money to do abstinence education.  Professor Green said he was not a religious man but in this case the Pope had the correct solution according to the people on the ground dealing with the issues locally.

The day after the NYT ran the editorial, Professor Green lost his funding.  I had written to him the thank him for his article and I asked him how he could get away with being so honest.  It was then that he wrote back and told me that he no longer headed the AIDS project at Harvard.

I once spent time with some raw data from studies done in southern Africa and I can tell you that this is true.  More than one correspondent called for more abstinence education and fewer condoms, saying that condoms gave people a false sense of security and they were more promiscuous, not less.   Those parts of the data were systematically ignored.

So from my perspective your comments here are ignorant and worse than that they are irresponsible and worse than that they lead to a perpetuation of the problem and worse than that...you won't change your mind even if the truth hit you in the face like a wet mackerel!!

That strange sound you hear is me grinding my teeth.

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2010, 01:58:02 AM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."

Apology

I have received a message from one of these three priests saying that I am guilty of calumny and he does not subscribe to the "theology of the body."

Since I made the statement in public I am doing the same with the apology.

The message was anonymous; I do not know which of the three priests has contacted me.

Forgive me, Father.  Nizki poklon.

Fr Ambrose
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2010, 02:30:43 AM »

[

There is hard evidence that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS.  That condoms decrease the incidence of sex is a lie.

Professor Green from Harvard provided some of that evidence

According to Green, condoms DO work to prevent the spread of AIDS.  The problem is the inconsistency of their use, just as the inconsistency of abstinence is a problem.

Here are Green's words on the subject....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/27/AR2009032702825.html
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2010, 12:23:31 PM »

[

There is hard evidence that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS.  That condoms decrease the incidence of sex is a lie.

Professor Green from Harvard provided some of that evidence

According to Green, condoms DO work to prevent the spread of AIDS.  The problem is the inconsistency of their use, just as the inconsistency of abstinence is a problem.

Here are Green's words on the subject....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/27/AR2009032702825.html

Inconsistency, including the failure of the latex itself.

This is a pink flamingo you raise here because the bottom line is that where there are condoms there is very often NO definitive, and long-term decrease in the spread of HIV-AIDS and often the incidences increase instead.

Where there is strict abstinence training and solid moral training there is always a decrease in instances over time and as long as the training and encouragement remains the good effects remain.

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.  You should retire that stump.

Mary

Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2010, 12:23:31 PM »

I made enquiries and was told that there are three convert priests in the States who adopt a stance which is contary to their bishops' views and teaching on contraception - Josiah Trenham (Antioch), John Schroedel (OCA), Patrick Reardon (Antioch.)

Apparently these three priests are not successful and are not permitted to impose their views on their parishioners.

The information to hand is that they also promote the Roman Catholic teaching of Pope John Paul and the "theology of the body."

Apology

I have received a message from one of these three priests saying that I am guilty of calumny and he does not subscribe to the "theology of the body."

Since I made the statement in public I am doing the same with the apology.

The message was anonymous; I do not know which of the three priests has contacted me.

Forgive me, Father.  Nizki poklon.

Fr Ambrose

I am finding that most Catholics who follow Humanae Vitae do not then, by extension of ascetic spirituality and praxis, subscribe to the distortions of the Theology of the Body that have been introduced by speakers and authors, such as Christopher West in particular, whose exhortations destroy modesty at the very least and incite the faithful to sin against the first and ninth commandment at its worst and are a scandal in the traditional sense of the word.

There is finally a group of Catholics young and old alike who are beginning to push back at this licentious perversion of John Paul II's teaching on the body and conjugal love where sex on demand is name of the game and perversion becomes foreplay.

So whoever the Orthodox priest is who says he does not subscribe, I say "Thanks God!!"

Mary
Logged

Sloga
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 830



« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2010, 02:13:05 AM »

May the Vatican's morally justified stance on contraception continue to aid the deaths of millions of people in Africa (including babies and children) due to AIDS!

There is hard evidence that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS.  That condoms decrease the incidence of sex is a lie.

..............................................................................

So from my perspective your comments here are ignorant and worse than that they are irresponsible and worse than that they lead to a perpetuation of the problem and worse than that...you won't change your mind even if the truth hit you in the face like a wet mackerel!!

That strange sound you hear is me grinding my teeth.

Mary

I'm not going to argue that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS. Hopefully this is just your opinion and not some official catholic stance since that claim is borderline neanderthal-like in terms of primitiveness.

And grind your teeth all you like, my girlfriend does it in her sleep  Smiley
Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2010, 04:00:49 AM »

[

There is hard evidence that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS.  That condoms decrease the incidence of sex is a lie.

Professor Green from Harvard provided some of that evidence

According to Green, condoms DO work to prevent the spread of AIDS.  The problem is the inconsistency of their use, just as the inconsistency of abstinence is a problem.

Here are Green's words on the subject....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/27/AR2009032702825.html

Inconsistency, including the failure of the latex itself.

This is a pink flamingo you raise here because the bottom line is that where there are condoms there is very often NO definitive, and long-term decrease in the spread of HIV-AIDS and often the incidences increase instead.

Where there is strict abstinence training and solid moral training there is always a decrease in instances over time and as long as the training and encouragement remains the good effects remain.

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.  You should retire that stump.

Mary




It is absolutely disgusting and vile to make out that I have defended "sexual license among human beings for years."    When we have spoken of contraception I have presented my Church's position,  in a responsible and sober manner.    For you to call that a "defense of sexual licence"...?!   

I believe you owe me an apology.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2010, 04:04:37 AM »


I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years. 

This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,389


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2010, 05:01:57 AM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.

Orthodoxy does not allow these things! At least not in our Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church. And I dare say that EO priests (i.e. Chalcedonian)  who "allow" such things are contradicting the historical Teachings and Tradition of the Church.


Selam
Logged

"Don't register. Don't vote.
Don't enlist. Don't deploy.
Don't take oaths. Don't say the pledge.
Pray to God, and start a revolution instead!"
Selam, +GMK+
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2010, 06:58:59 AM »

Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.


This is the teaching on abortion of my own Russian Orthodox Church.

http://incommunion.org/articles/the-orthodox-church-and-society/xii
or
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

"The Basis of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church"

Document Issued by the Jubilee Bishops’ Council
of the Russian Orthodox Church,
in August 2000, Moscow, Russia



2. Since the ancient time the Church has viewed deliberate abortion as a grave sin. The canons equate abortion with murder. This assessment is based on the conviction that the conception of a human being is a gift of God. Therefore, from the moment of conception any encroachment on the life of a future human being is criminal.

The Psalmist describes the development of the foetus in a mother’s womb as God’s creative action: “thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb… My substance was not hid from thee, them I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest part of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance” (Ps. 139:13, 15-16). Job testifies to the same in the words addressed to God: “thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about… Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews. Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved by spirit… Thou brought me forth out of the womb” (Job 10:8-12, 18). “I formed thee in the belly… and before thou comest out of the womb I sanctified thee”, says the Lord to the Prophet Jeremiah. “Thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide” — this order is placed among the most important commandments of God in the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, one of the oldest Christian manuscripts. “A woman who brought on abortion is a murderer and will give an account to God”, wrote Athenagoras, an apologist of the 2nd century. “One who will be man is already man”, argued Tertullian at the turn of the 3d century. “She who purposely destroys the foetus, shall suffer the punishment of murder… Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the same penalty as murder”, read the 2nd and 8th rules of St. Basil the Great, included in the Book of Statutes of the Orthodox Church and confirmed by Canon 91 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council. At the same time, St. Basil clarifies: “And we pay no attention to the subtle distinction as to whether the foetus was formed or unformed”. St. John Chrysostom described those who perform abortion as “being worse than murderers”.

The Church sees the widely spread and justified abortion in contemporary society as a threat to the future of humanity and a clear sign of its moral degradation. It is incompatible to be faithful to the biblical and patristic teaching that human life is sacred and precious from its origin and to recognise woman’s “free choice” in disposing of the fate of the foetus. In addition, abortion present a serious threat to the physical and spiritual health of a mother. The Church has always considered it her duty to protect the most vulnerable and dependent human beings, namely, unborn children.

Under no circumstances the Orthodox Church can bless abortion. Without rejecting the women who had an abortion, the Church calls upon them to repent and to overcome the destructive consequences of the sin through prayer and penance followed by participation in the salvific Sacraments. In case of a direct threat to the life of a mother if her pregnancy continues, especially if she has other children, it is recommended to be lenient in the pastoral practice. The woman who interrupted pregnancy in this situation shall not be excluded from the Eucharistic communion with the Church provided that she has fulfilled the canon of Penance assigned by the priest who takes her confession. The struggle with abortion, to which women sometimes have to resort because of abject poverty and helplessness, demands that the Church and society work out effective measures to protect motherhood and to create conditions for the adoption of the children whose mothers cannot raise them on their own for some reason.

Responsibility for the sin of the murder of the unborn child should be borne, along with the mother, by the father if he gave his consent to the abortion. If a wife had an abortion without the consent of her husband, it may be grounds for divorce (see X. 3). Sin also lies with the doctor who performed the abortion. The Church calls upon the state to recognise the right of medics to refuse to procure abortion for the reasons of conscience. The situation cannot be considered normal where the legal responsibility of a doctor for the death of a mother is made incomparably higher than the responsibility for the destruction of the foetus — the situation that provokes medics and through them patients, too, to do abortions. The doctor should be utterly responsible in establishing a diagnosis that can prompt a woman to interrupt her pregnancy. In doing so, a believing medic should carefully correlate the clinic indications with the dictates of his Christian conscience.

The Bishops who participated in the Millennium Council




Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2010, 07:02:16 AM »

This is the teaching on contraception of my own Russian Orthodox Church.

http://incommunion.org/articles/the-orthodox-church-and-society/xii
or
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

"The Basis of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church"

Document Adopted by the Jubilee Bishops’ Council
of the Russian Orthodox Church,
in August 2000, Moscow, Russia


XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

At the same time, spouses are responsible before God for the comprehensive upbringing of their children. One of the ways to be responsible for their birth is to restrain themselves from sexual relations for a time. However, Christian spouses should remember the words of St. Paul addressed to them: «Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency» (1 Cor. 7:5). Clearly, spouses should make such decisions mutually on the counsel of their spiritual father. The latter should take into account, with pastoral prudence, the concrete living conditions of the couple, their age, health, degree of spiritual maturity and many other circumstances. In doing so, he should distinguish those who can hold the high demands of continence from those to whom it is not given (Mt. 19:11), taking care above all of the preservation and consolidation of the family.

The Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church in its Decision of December 28, 1998, instructed the clergy serving as spiritual guides that «it is inadmissible to coerce or induce the flock to… refuse conjugal relations in marriage». It also reminded the pastors of the need «to show special chastity and special pastoral prudence in discussing with the flock the questions involved in particular aspects of their family life».

The Bishops who participated in the Millennium Council

Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2010, 09:17:04 AM »

May the Vatican's morally justified stance on contraception continue to aid the deaths of millions of people in Africa (including babies and children) due to AIDS!

There is hard evidence that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS.  That condoms decrease the incidence of sex is a lie.

..............................................................................

So from my perspective your comments here are ignorant and worse than that they are irresponsible and worse than that they lead to a perpetuation of the problem and worse than that...you won't change your mind even if the truth hit you in the face like a wet mackerel!!

That strange sound you hear is me grinding my teeth.

Mary

I'm not going to argue that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS. Hopefully this is just your opinion and not some official catholic stance since that claim is borderline neanderthal-like in terms of primitiveness.

And grind your teeth all you like, my girlfriend does it in her sleep  Smiley

It is not my opinion.  It is demonstrable statistical fact. 

Condoms lead to complacency...lead to promiscuity....lead to an up-swing in instances of HIV-AIDS.

I've read the in-country reports from teachers, nurses, public servants...and the like.

Over and over again they ask for abstinence training and over and over again the Wold Bank and World Health Organization turn a deaf ear and Planned Parenthood turn a deaf ear.  How deeply does Planned Parenthood activities penetrate into Orthodox countries now?

Poking fun at my Church does not change the facts.  Abstinence and closed relationships, monogamous or polygamous, works to reduce the instances of HIV-AIDS.

Mary
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2010, 09:34:26 AM »


I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years. 

This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."

You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

The teaching of the Catholic Church is NO artificial birth control of any kind.
 
Orthodox teaching, according to you and many other Orthodox, but not ALL Orthodox, is that SOME artificial birth control is fine and necessary.  Also according to you that is the position of your bishop and your Patriarch.

Till all of that changes to read NO artificial birth control,  then the Patriarch's comment that frames the subject of this thread is false.  They may be similar, but hardly the same or like-minded.  And till it is we are not going to really be able to work together on moral issues...which is the point of the discussion in this topic.

And I continue to be convinced that, de facto, there are Orthodox clergy and bishops, who will make the occasional exception for abortion sending ALL the wrong signals to their flocks.

The point is NOT that the laity fails to follow the teaching of their respective Churches, or succeeds...

The point in question here is whether or not Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church follow the same formal teaching, de facto and de jure.  My own observations are "Not yet."  And more to the point I do not believe that they would want to give up that little escape clause built into sexual teaching.

I say close the gap and let the faithful confess their transgressions.  That is the, what was it called?...Neanderthal.... position of the Pope.  Not at all like-minded with the Patriarch, as far as I can see from here.  Apparently that Patriarchs are more modern in their thinking...not at all Neanderthal!!

Mary
Logged

mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,470


« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2010, 09:42:47 AM »

And I continue to be convinced that, de facto, there are Orthodox clergy and bishops, who will make the occasional exception for abortion sending ALL the wrong signals to their flocks.

As well as RC Clergy and Bishops.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 09:44:36 AM by mike » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2010, 09:54:24 AM »

And I continue to be convinced that, de facto, there are Orthodox clergy and bishops, who will make the occasional exception for abortion sending ALL the wrong signals to their flocks.

As well as RC Clergy and Bishops.

You may well be right.  But they tend not to express that personal perspective where the faithful and other clergy can hear it.  If that were true about Orthodox clergy and bishops, I would not have heard it often enough to be concerned.

Also as I noted earlier Father Stanley in his text on Orthodox moral theology explicitly allows for abortion to save the life of the mother.  In that text there is NO discussion of or distinction drawn between double effect and abortion.  Nor have I ever heard anyone explain double effect in any Orthodox discussion of moral theology.

Mary
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 09:59:30 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,470


« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2010, 09:56:21 AM »

They 'tend not to' but sometimes they do - check Fr. Raymond Gravel.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 09:56:35 AM by mike » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2010, 10:09:09 AM »

They 'tend not to' but sometimes they do - check Fr. Raymond Gravel.

He's the Canadian politician who pretends to be a Catholic priest?  I think so.

He was ordered out of politics.  I doubt that he's been removed from service as a priest but there's been steady pressure to muzzle him.  He has currency among the most liberal or dissident of Catholics...even luke warm Catholics in this country recognize his fanaticism...and reject his message, and they vote with their wallets because pro-life Catholic groups are getting the donations from inside the Church...not the dissidents looking to distribute condoms.

I think the point I am making and I'll use Father Harakas's book to make it is that, formally, Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church do not yet teach the same message on sexual morality.

Mary
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2010, 11:01:26 AM »

They 'tend not to' but sometimes they do - check Fr. Raymond Gravel.

He's the Canadian politician who pretends to be a Catholic priest?  I think so.

He was ordered out of politics.  I doubt that he's been removed from service as a priest but there's been steady pressure to muzzle him.  He has currency among the most liberal or dissident of Catholics...even luke warm Catholics in this country recognize his fanaticism...and reject his message, and they vote with their wallets because pro-life Catholic groups are getting the donations from inside the Church...not the dissidents looking to distribute condoms.

I think the point I am making and I'll use Father Harakas's book to make it is that, formally, Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church do not yet teach the same message on sexual morality.

Mary
LOL. Fr. Harakas speaks ex cathedra? Never heard it.  What synod has adopted this teaching?

And no, given the Vatican's teaching on artificial annullment, we do not teach the same message.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2010, 12:11:59 PM »

They 'tend not to' but sometimes they do - check Fr. Raymond Gravel.

He's the Canadian politician who pretends to be a Catholic priest?  I think so.

He was ordered out of politics.  I doubt that he's been removed from service as a priest but there's been steady pressure to muzzle him.  He has currency among the most liberal or dissident of Catholics...even luke warm Catholics in this country recognize his fanaticism...and reject his message, and they vote with their wallets because pro-life Catholic groups are getting the donations from inside the Church...not the dissidents looking to distribute condoms.

I think the point I am making and I'll use Father Harakas's book to make it is that, formally, Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church do not yet teach the same message on sexual morality.

Mary
LOL. Fr. Harakas speaks ex cathedra? Never heard it.  What synod has adopted this teaching?

And no, given the Vatican's teaching on artificial annullment, we do not teach the same message.

That is quite right.  The Catholic Church does not teach divorce either and does not recognize so-called second marriages.   One wonders, superficially, what the Patriarch is thinking...eh?   I expect that there's more going on there than meets the eye, but I do think the message needs to be made more clear.

I was about to come back and say that I am not speaking in terms of tit-for-tat but am saying that both Churches will have to find some way to speak with one voice concerning their various approaches to sexual morality and marriage in particular, but of course there's no room for that is there.

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2010, 04:44:33 PM »


I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years. 

This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."

You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Lies,all lies.  I reacted strongly to the extreme positions regarding sex and marriage promulgated on your e-list by a young convert under the spiritual direction of Fr Ambrose Young.

Fr Ambrose Young himself protested strongly on more than one occasion that his protege had gone too far.

You yourself made the same protestation against this young man's opinions on sexuality and marriage.

A bishop on your list also strongly protested.

It is vile and despicable of you (and what excuse is there? you have an excellent intelligence and know what you are about) to claim that you have "listened to your [my] defense of sexual license among human beings for years"

Vile and despicable!  It brings tears to me eyes that you dishonour yourself like this, in order to score points.  Do the right thing. Apologise.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2010, 05:04:26 PM »

And I continue to be convinced that, de facto, there are Orthodox clergy and bishops, who will make the occasional exception for abortion sending ALL the wrong signals to their flocks.

As well as RC Clergy and Bishops.

You may well be right.  But they tend not to express that personal perspective where the faithful and other clergy can hear it.  If that were true about Orthodox clergy and bishops, I would not have heard it often enough to be concerned.

Also as I noted earlier Father Stanley in his text on Orthodox moral theology explicitly allows for abortion to save the life of the mother.  In that text there is NO discussion of or distinction drawn between double effect and abortion.  Nor have I ever heard anyone explain double effect in any Orthodox discussion of moral theology.


You are missing the vocabulary of "double effect" in Fr Harakas' words?    Why should you require him to use that terminology?     You should know that the Orthodox do not speak in principle of "double effect."    It is a Roman Catholic construal (as Fr Kimel would say.)   But the morality of the choices and the thinking which underlies them is the same. Please do not use the absence of "double effect" terminology among the Orthodox in an attempt to denigrate the Orthodox and make out that we allow abortion.

Double Effect

"This principle aims to provide specific guidelines for determining when it is morally permissible to perform an action in pursuit of a good end in full knowledge that the action will also bring about bad results. The principle has its historical roots in the medieval natural law tradition, especially in the thought of Thomas Aquinas (1225?-1274), and has been refined both in its general formulation and in its application by generations of Catholic moral theologians.

"The principle of double effect, once largely confined to discussions by Catholic moral theologians, in recent years has figured prominently in the discussion of both ethical theory and applied ethics by a broad range of contemporary philosophers. "

http://www.saintmarys.edu/~incandel/doubleeffect.html

As I said, it is a peculiar Roman Catholic and medieval concept which was birthed outside of Orthodxy and has generally been " largely confined to discussions by Catholic moral theologians."
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,109


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2010, 05:07:11 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.  
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #76 on: August 04, 2010, 05:25:01 PM »

The only context I can think of in which non-abortofacient birth control could be used is in marriage, and this is usually penanced in some way from what I've heard, at any rate it is not blessed as something good, but regretted as something allowed to avoid a worse evil. Non-abortofacient birth control is an issue quite different from abortion, and since it would only be allowed in the context of marriage, there can be no argument that it promotes promiscuity. It is allowed in some cases to avoid infidelity. This allowance is a matter of pastoral praxis.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #77 on: August 04, 2010, 05:37:12 PM »

And I continue to be convinced that, de facto, there are Orthodox clergy and bishops, who will make the occasional exception for abortion sending ALL the wrong signals to their flocks.

As well as RC Clergy and Bishops.

You may well be right.  But they tend not to express that personal perspective where the faithful and other clergy can hear it.  If that were true about Orthodox clergy and bishops, I would not have heard it often enough to be concerned.

Also as I noted earlier Father Stanley in his text on Orthodox moral theology explicitly allows for abortion to save the life of the mother.  In that text there is NO discussion of or distinction drawn between double effect and abortion.  Nor have I ever heard anyone explain double effect in any Orthodox discussion of moral theology.


You are missing the vocabulary of "double effect" in Fr Harakas' words?    Why should you require him to use that terminology?     You should know that the Orthodox do not speak in principle of "double effect."    It is a Roman Catholic construal (as Fr Kimel would say.)   But the morality of the choices and the thinking which underlies them is the same. Please do not use the absence of "double effect" terminology among the Orthodox in an attempt to denigrate the Orthodox and make out that we allow abortion.

Double Effect

"This principle aims to provide specific guidelines for determining when it is morally permissible to perform an action in pursuit of a good end in full knowledge that the action will also bring about bad results. The principle has its historical roots in the medieval natural law tradition, especially in the thought of Thomas Aquinas (1225?-1274), and has been refined both in its general formulation and in its application by generations of Catholic moral theologians.

"The principle of double effect, once largely confined to discussions by Catholic moral theologians, in recent years has figured prominently in the discussion of both ethical theory and applied ethics by a broad range of contemporary philosophers. "

http://www.saintmarys.edu/~incandel/doubleeffect.html

As I said, it is a peculiar Roman Catholic and medieval concept which was birthed outside of Orthodxy and has generally been " largely confined to discussions by Catholic moral theologians."

Father Stanley knows English pretty well.  He never speaks of 'treating the mother' in the hopes that both will live.  He speaks of allowing "ABORTION" in an attempt to save the mother's life.

Now there's a clear difference. 

And he specifically says that "abortion" is justified if it is to save the mother's life.

Treating the mother in the hopes that BOTH will live is NEVER called abortion.

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #78 on: August 04, 2010, 06:03:14 PM »

And I continue to be convinced that, de facto, there are Orthodox clergy and bishops, who will make the occasional exception for abortion sending ALL the wrong signals to their flocks.

As well as RC Clergy and Bishops.

You may well be right.  But they tend not to express that personal perspective where the faithful and other clergy can hear it.  If that were true about Orthodox clergy and bishops, I would not have heard it often enough to be concerned.

Also as I noted earlier Father Stanley in his text on Orthodox moral theology explicitly allows for abortion to save the life of the mother.  In that text there is NO discussion of or distinction drawn between double effect and abortion.  Nor have I ever heard anyone explain double effect in any Orthodox discussion of moral theology.


You are missing the vocabulary of "double effect" in Fr Harakas' words?    Why should you require him to use that terminology?     You should know that the Orthodox do not speak in principle of "double effect."    It is a Roman Catholic construal (as Fr Kimel would say.)   But the morality of the choices and the thinking which underlies them is the same. Please do not use the absence of "double effect" terminology among the Orthodox in an attempt to denigrate the Orthodox and make out that we allow abortion.

Double Effect

"This principle aims to provide specific guidelines for determining when it is morally permissible to perform an action in pursuit of a good end in full knowledge that the action will also bring about bad results. The principle has its historical roots in the medieval natural law tradition, especially in the thought of Thomas Aquinas (1225?-1274), and has been refined both in its general formulation and in its application by generations of Catholic moral theologians.

"The principle of double effect, once largely confined to discussions by Catholic moral theologians, in recent years has figured prominently in the discussion of both ethical theory and applied ethics by a broad range of contemporary philosophers. "

http://www.saintmarys.edu/~incandel/doubleeffect.html

As I said, it is a peculiar Roman Catholic and medieval concept which was birthed outside of Orthodxy and has generally been " largely confined to discussions by Catholic moral theologians."

Father Stanley knows English pretty well.  He never speaks of 'treating the mother' in the hopes that both will live.  He speaks of allowing "ABORTION" in an attempt to save the mother's life.

Now there's a clear difference. 

And he specifically says that "abortion" is justified if it is to save the mother's life.

Treating the mother in the hopes that BOTH will live is NEVER called abortion.

Mary

You are so blinkered by your cute legalistic terminology of "double effect" that you have no hope of seeing what Fr Harakas is really saying.

You are also blinkered by your determination to prove that Orthodoxy is a moral morass with regard to abortion.   Your intention has been evident for quite some time.

Tell me, when you were catechized to become an "Orthodox in communion with Rome" were you warned by your catechist that Orthodoxy is grossly sinful in its teaching on abortion and this is one Orthodox teaching which you were forbidden to adopt?
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2010, 06:08:02 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.  
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?

If you be mindful that I have said that Father Ambrose leans on the side of laxity rather than strictness when it comes to human sexuality and moral practice,  and promotes barrier methods of birth control because he thinks that abstinence is too difficult for the average person,  then I will submit the following for your greater understanding of my own perceptions of the man and monk:

Ambrois O Maonaigh <emrys@globe.net.nz>
reply-to   Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
date   Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:35 AM
subject   [Irenikon] Re: Sexuality and Contraception (a query to Fr. Ambrose)


--- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@...> wrote:

>
> So that leaves abstinence...for difficult cases....

Is that realistic? I've not been married but I can imagine that it would take a ton of forbearance to sleep night after night next to a bowl of luscious cherries (Song of Songs) and not take a bite.

Fr Ambrois
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2010, 06:14:09 PM »


You are also blinkered by your determination to prove that Orthodoxy is a moral morass with regard to abortion.   Your intention has been evident for quite some time.


Fact of the matter is that I do not for a moment think that Orthodoxy, or the Orthodox, are in MORE of a moral morass than the Catholic Church.  I'd be a durned idiot to try and make that claim stick.

What I have been trying to point out...as Father Ambrose Young and Father Augustine were trying also to point out to you over time on Irenikon...is that there is no clear formal teaching in Orthodoxy at the moment leading to less ambiguity rather than more ambiguity with regards sexual morality and the modern world.

So again, I challenge the Patriarch when he says that he and the Pope are like-minded on moral issues.

I think there's still a good bit of work to be done before that condition pertains in truth.

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2010, 06:23:47 PM »

/\ /\   That message is a follow on from this one below.  The basic topic to which I am responding is the contention by a young Orthodox convert that marriage is an inferior spiritual state, specifically, that there is no theosis occurring for sexually active married couples and their best option is to be abstinent!!


Fr Ambrose:

"My opinion is, following Saint Paul, that the sacrament of marriage has the
expectation of connubial activity between the married couple. Without it the
unitive aspect of marriage is under assault. If our Lord wanted people to live
in sexless marriage He would have indicated that and the Church would have
created an alternative wedding ceremony without the numerous references to "fair
children" and "may you see your children's children" etc."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/27700

and

Fr Ambrose:

I find *****'s idea that theosis is not happening for the great part of
the Church, those sexually active in marriage, an intriguing one. Most of our
people are not on the path of theosis!! If you think about it in Catholic terms
it would be tantamount to claiming that supernatural grace has been removed from
their souls. They are spiritually dead. For Catholics this dire condition of
spiritual death is created by mortal sin but for the Orthodox it would seem to
be created by the Sacrament of Matrimony and the attendant sexual activity!!

These are not ideal questions, are they... there are serious concerns for many
in the Church if what **** is saying about no theosis for the married
(until after death) is correct.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/34294

« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 06:28:26 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #82 on: August 04, 2010, 06:27:49 PM »

And I continue to be convinced that, de facto, there are Orthodox clergy and bishops, who will make the occasional exception for abortion sending ALL the wrong signals to their flocks.

As well as RC Clergy and Bishops.

You may well be right.  But they tend not to express that personal perspective where the faithful and other clergy can hear it.  If that were true about Orthodox clergy and bishops, I would not have heard it often enough to be concerned.

Also as I noted earlier Father Stanley in his text on Orthodox moral theology explicitly allows for abortion to save the life of the mother.  In that text there is NO discussion of or distinction drawn between double effect and abortion.  Nor have I ever heard anyone explain double effect in any Orthodox discussion of moral theology.


You are missing the vocabulary of "double effect" in Fr Harakas' words?    Why should you require him to use that terminology?     You should know that the Orthodox do not speak in principle of "double effect."    It is a Roman Catholic construal (as Fr Kimel would say.)   But the morality of the choices and the thinking which underlies them is the same. Please do not use the absence of "double effect" terminology among the Orthodox in an attempt to denigrate the Orthodox and make out that we allow abortion.

Double Effect

"This principle aims to provide specific guidelines for determining when it is morally permissible to perform an action in pursuit of a good end in full knowledge that the action will also bring about bad results. The principle has its historical roots in the medieval natural law tradition, especially in the thought of Thomas Aquinas (1225?-1274), and has been refined both in its general formulation and in its application by generations of Catholic moral theologians.

"The principle of double effect, once largely confined to discussions by Catholic moral theologians, in recent years has figured prominently in the discussion of both ethical theory and applied ethics by a broad range of contemporary philosophers. "

http://www.saintmarys.edu/~incandel/doubleeffect.html

As I said, it is a peculiar Roman Catholic and medieval concept which was birthed outside of Orthodxy and has generally been " largely confined to discussions by Catholic moral theologians."

Father Stanley knows English pretty well.  He never speaks of 'treating the mother' in the hopes that both will live.  He speaks of allowing "ABORTION" in an attempt to save the mother's life.

Now there's a clear difference. 

And he specifically says that "abortion" is justified if it is to save the mother's life.

Treating the mother in the hopes that BOTH will live is NEVER called abortion.

Mary

I have been told that the potential situation of having to choose between mother and baby as to which should live rarely, if ever, occurs anymore. The Orthodox Church, to my knowledge, is not in the habit of making glib official pronouncements on who who should live and who should die just to cover potentialities. If a decision is imminent, and what doctor would not try to save both?, then it should be made by the people involved with pastoral counsel. I fail to see how not pronouncing officially on a potentiality which may never occur due to medical advances, makes the Orthodox Church's position on infanticide less than an unqualified negative.  If we're looking at hypotheticals to arrive at teaching, we're on shifting sands. Abortion/infanticide for whatever reason, even in the unlikely event that it would save the mother's life, is always wrong. Killing in self defense is always wrong. There are penances for both. And such is also an impediment to ordination.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #83 on: August 04, 2010, 06:31:37 PM »

/\ /\   That message is a follow on from this one below.  The basic topic to which I am responding is the contention by a young Orthodox convert that marriage is an inferior spiritual state, specifically, that there is no theosis occurring for sexually active married couples and their best option is to be abstinent!!


Fr Ambrose:

"My opinion is, following Saint Paul, that the sacrament of marriage has the
expectation of connubial activity between the married couple. Without it the
unitive aspect of marriage is under assault. If our Lord wanted people to live
in sexless marriage He would have indicated that and the Church would have
created an alternative wedding ceremony without the numerous references to "fair
children" and "may you see your children's children" etc."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/27700

and

Fr Ambrose:

I find *****'s idea that theosis is not happening for the great part of
the Church, those sexually active in marriage, an intriguing one. Most of our
people are not on the path of theosis!! If you think about it in Catholic terms
it would be tantamount to claiming that supernatural grace has been removed from
their souls. They are spiritually dead. For Catholics this dire condition of
spiritual death is created by mortal sin but for the Orthodox it would seem to
be created by the Sacrament of Matrimony and the attendant sexual activity!!

These are not ideal questions, are they... there are serious concerns for many
in the Church if what **** is saying about no theosis for the married
(until after death) is correct.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon/message/34294



If theosis were impossible for those married with children, we would not have married saints. But we have quite a few married saints, besides the language in the marriage service and the writings of the Fathers.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2010, 06:54:39 PM »


You are also blinkered by your determination to prove that Orthodoxy is a moral morass with regard to abortion.   Your intention has been evident for quite some time.


What I have been trying to point out...as Father Ambrose Young and Father Augustine were trying also to point out to you over time on Irenikon...is that there is no clear formal teaching in Orthodoxy at the moment leading to less ambiguity rather than more ambiguity with regards sexual morality and the modern world.



If that is what the trio of you are trying to point out then I think you are way off beam and depressingly defeatist.

Are you seriously saying that the Church has dealt with sexual morality in every "modern world" for the last 20 centuries but now.... along comes the 21st century and the Church is stumped for answers!!!   It is adrift in a sea of moral ambiguities.    The World had finally defeated the wisdom and knowledge of the Church!  The best we can tell our people is... "Yes, we have had to deal with moral issues for 2,000 years in every different generation but now, in the year 2010 we cannot offer answers!!"
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,899


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #85 on: August 04, 2010, 07:07:09 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.  
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?

If you be mindful that I have said that Father Ambrose leans on the side of laxity rather than strictness when it comes to human sexuality and moral practice,  and promotes barrier methods of birth control because he thinks that abstinence is too difficult for the average person,  then I will submit the following for your greater understanding of my own perceptions of the man and monk:

Ambrois O Maonaigh <emrys@globe.net.nz>
reply-to   Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
date   Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:35 AM
subject   [Irenikon] Re: Sexuality and Contraception (a query to Fr. Ambrose)


--- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@...> wrote:

>
> So that leaves abstinence...for difficult cases....

Is that realistic? I've not been married but I can imagine that it would take a ton of forbearance to sleep night after night next to a bowl of luscious cherries (Song of Songs) and not take a bite.

Fr Ambrois
I don't think this message from Fr. Ambrose says quite what you think it says, particularly stripped from its context as you have rendered it.  For one, you've not provided any part of the conversation that reveals just exactly what you all were talking about.  You've explained it in your own words--IOW, spin--earlier in this post, but we need to see the actual conversation to be able to judge properly.  Fortunately, I just read that thread to which you make reference.  Fr. Ambrose was talking about sexual relations between a man and his wife.  To question the realism of any idea that a married couple should abstain from sexual relations for more than just a very brief time is a far cry from defending sexual license among human beings, as you so glibly claim against Fr. Ambrose.  IOW, Mary, I find your selective use of quotations very deceiving and dishonest.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 07:08:56 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #86 on: August 04, 2010, 07:31:23 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.   
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?

If you be mindful that I have said that Father Ambrose leans on the side of laxity rather than strictness when it comes to human sexuality and moral practice,  and promotes barrier methods of birth control because he thinks that abstinence is too difficult for the average person,  then I will submit the following for your greater understanding of my own perceptions of the man and monk:

Ambrois O Maonaigh <emrys@globe.net.nz>
reply-to Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
date Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:35 AM
subject [Irenikon] Re: Sexuality and Contraception (a query to Fr. Ambrose)


--- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@...> wrote:

>
> So that leaves abstinence...for difficult cases....

Is that realistic? I've not been married but I can imagine that it would take a ton of forbearance to sleep night after night next to a bowl of luscious cherries (Song of Songs) and not take a bite.

Fr Ambrois
I don't think this message from Fr. Ambrose says quite what you think it says, particularly stripped from its context as you have rendered it.  For one, you've not provided any part of the conversation that reveals just exactly what you all were talking about.

That is why I tried to offer a bit of context in message 81 above.   I don't want the world to think that I go round seeing women as "luscious cherries" even if the Song of Songs refers to them as such !!

Quote
IOW, Mary, I find your selective use of quotations very deceiving and dishonest.

And so do I.  And I am really puzzled.  The Mary I know and love is staunchly and rigorously honest.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2010, 08:06:44 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.  
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?

If you be mindful that I have said that Father Ambrose leans on the side of laxity rather than strictness when it comes to human sexuality and moral practice,  and promotes barrier methods of birth control because he thinks that abstinence is too difficult for the average person,  then I will submit the following for your greater understanding of my own perceptions of the man and monk:

Ambrois O Maonaigh <emrys@globe.net.nz>
reply-to   Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
date   Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:35 AM
subject   [Irenikon] Re: Sexuality and Contraception (a query to Fr. Ambrose)


--- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@...> wrote:

>
> So that leaves abstinence...for difficult cases....

Is that realistic? I've not been married but I can imagine that it would take a ton of forbearance to sleep night after night next to a bowl of luscious cherries (Song of Songs) and not take a bite.

Fr Ambrois
I don't think this message from Fr. Ambrose says quite what you think it says, particularly stripped from its context as you have rendered it.  For one, you've not provided any part of the conversation that reveals just exactly what you all were talking about.  You've explained it in your own words--IOW, spin--earlier in this post, but we need to see the actual conversation to be able to judge properly.  Fortunately, I just read that thread to which you make reference.  Fr. Ambrose was talking about sexual relations between a man and his wife.  To question the realism of any idea that a married couple should abstain from sexual relations for more than just a very brief time is a far cry from defending sexual license among human beings, as you so glibly claim against Fr. Ambrose.  IOW, Mary, I find your selective use of quotations very deceiving and dishonest.

I was there for the entire run of many threads on related subjects.  I certainly do know the context.

And it is quite clear that Father Ambrose, from New Zealand, is of the opinion that it is too difficult for married couples to abstain from sexual relations, even for brief periods and it is much better to offer Orthodox couples the option of barrier method birth control, and that is not only an option in Orthodoxy but it is the preferred option.

Again, I will say that the Patriarch is not quite correct when he says that he and the Pope is of like-mind with respect to sexual morality.

Father Ambrose, New Zealand, has every expectation that the Patriarch in question will support his proffered use of barrier method birth control.

That is what I have been saying.  It is what I will continue to say till circumstance changes where I can see it and then I will change my mind along with circumstance.

Till then, it is no lie to say what I have said here.

Mary

PS: You are more than willing to take Father Augustine's and Father Ambrose Young's posts totally out of context and shoot Father Augustine like a duck in a carnival arcade.  That seems to be just fine.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2010, 08:19:38 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.   
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?

If you be mindful that I have said that Father Ambrose leans on the side of laxity rather than strictness when it comes to human sexuality and moral practice,  and promotes barrier methods of birth control because he thinks that abstinence is too difficult for the average person,  then I will submit the following for your greater understanding of my own perceptions of the man and monk:

Ambrois O Maonaigh <emrys@globe.net.nz>
reply-to Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
date Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:35 AM
subject [Irenikon] Re: Sexuality and Contraception (a query to Fr. Ambrose)


--- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@...> wrote:

>
> So that leaves abstinence...for difficult cases....

Is that realistic? I've not been married but I can imagine that it would take a ton of forbearance to sleep night after night next to a bowl of luscious cherries (Song of Songs) and not take a bite.

Fr Ambrois
I don't think this message from Fr. Ambrose says quite what you think it says, particularly stripped from its context as you have rendered it.  For one, you've not provided any part of the conversation that reveals just exactly what you all were talking about.  You've explained it in your own words--IOW, spin--earlier in this post, but we need to see the actual conversation to be able to judge properly.  Fortunately, I just read that thread to which you make reference.  Fr. Ambrose was talking about sexual relations between a man and his wife.  To question the realism of any idea that a married couple should abstain from sexual relations for more than just a very brief time is a far cry from defending sexual license among human beings, as you so glibly claim against Fr. Ambrose.  IOW, Mary, I find your selective use of quotations very deceiving and dishonest.

I was there for the entire run of many threads on related subjects.  I certainly do know the context.

And it is quite clear that Father Ambrose, from New Zealand, is of the opinion that it is too difficult for married couples to abstain from sexual relations, even for brief periods

It is my expectation that the married couples in my parish will abstain from sexual relations for the 49 days of the Great Fast.  This is one facet of the fast on which I always preach to the faithful as Lent approaches.

I personally do not think that 49 days without sex is at all a brief period for a married couple and more strength to those who manage the complete 7 week fast.

May I ask how long your Catholic clergy require their married people to abstain from sex?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,899


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2010, 08:24:51 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.  
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?

If you be mindful that I have said that Father Ambrose leans on the side of laxity rather than strictness when it comes to human sexuality and moral practice,  and promotes barrier methods of birth control because he thinks that abstinence is too difficult for the average person,  then I will submit the following for your greater understanding of my own perceptions of the man and monk:

Ambrois O Maonaigh <emrys@globe.net.nz>
reply-to   Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
date   Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:35 AM
subject   [Irenikon] Re: Sexuality and Contraception (a query to Fr. Ambrose)


--- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@...> wrote:

>
> So that leaves abstinence...for difficult cases....

Is that realistic? I've not been married but I can imagine that it would take a ton of forbearance to sleep night after night next to a bowl of luscious cherries (Song of Songs) and not take a bite.

Fr Ambrois
I don't think this message from Fr. Ambrose says quite what you think it says, particularly stripped from its context as you have rendered it.  For one, you've not provided any part of the conversation that reveals just exactly what you all were talking about.  You've explained it in your own words--IOW, spin--earlier in this post, but we need to see the actual conversation to be able to judge properly.  Fortunately, I just read that thread to which you make reference.  Fr. Ambrose was talking about sexual relations between a man and his wife.  To question the realism of any idea that a married couple should abstain from sexual relations for more than just a very brief time is a far cry from defending sexual license among human beings, as you so glibly claim against Fr. Ambrose.  IOW, Mary, I find your selective use of quotations very deceiving and dishonest.

I was there for the entire run of many threads on related subjects.  I certainly do know the context.
You certainly may know the context, but you misrepresent it here on this thread.  Encouraging a married couple to have sex is NOT an endorsement of sexual promiscuity, which is how most will understand your phrase "sexual license".

And it is quite clear that Father Ambrose, from New Zealand, is of the opinion that it is too difficult for married couples to abstain from sexual relations, even for brief periods and it is much better to offer Orthodox couples the option of barrier method birth control, and that is not only an option in Orthodoxy but it is the preferred option.
So what?  I'm addressing only your accusation that Fr. Ambrose advocates sexual license.

Again, I will say that the Patriarch is not quite correct when he says that he and the Pope is of like-mind with respect to sexual morality.

Father Ambrose, New Zealand, has every expectation that the Patriarch in question will support his proffered use of barrier method birth control.

That is what I have been saying.  It is what I will continue to say till circumstance changes where I can see it and then I will change my mind along with circumstance.

Till then, it is no lie to say what I have said here.
But you have to admit that you're being dishonest by alleging that Fr. Ambrose advocates sexual license and by withholding information that refutes your allegation.  As I learned honesty, not telling the whole truth is often as bad as telling a lie.

PS: You are more than willing to take Father Augustine's and Father Ambrose Young's posts totally out of context and shoot Father Augustine like a duck in a carnival arcade.  That seems to be just fine.
Huh Huh Huh  I said absolutely nothing about Fr. Augustine and Fr. Ambrose Young, so I have no idea at all what you're accusing me of here.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 08:26:23 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #90 on: August 04, 2010, 08:42:00 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.  
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?

If you be mindful that I have said that Father Ambrose leans on the side of laxity rather than strictness when it comes to human sexuality and moral practice,  and promotes barrier methods of birth control because he thinks that abstinence is too difficult for the average person,  then I will submit the following for your greater understanding of my own perceptions of the man and monk:

Ambrois O Maonaigh <emrys@globe.net.nz>
reply-to Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
date Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:35 AM
subject [Irenikon] Re: Sexuality and Contraception (a query to Fr. Ambrose)


--- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@...> wrote:

>
> So that leaves abstinence...for difficult cases....

Is that realistic? I've not been married but I can imagine that it would take a ton of forbearance to sleep night after night next to a bowl of luscious cherries (Song of Songs) and not take a bite.

Fr Ambrois
I don't think this message from Fr. Ambrose says quite what you think it says, particularly stripped from its context as you have rendered it.  For one, you've not provided any part of the conversation that reveals just exactly what you all were talking about.  You've explained it in your own words--IOW, spin--earlier in this post, but we need to see the actual conversation to be able to judge properly.  Fortunately, I just read that thread to which you make reference.  Fr. Ambrose was talking about sexual relations between a man and his wife.  To question the realism of any idea that a married couple should abstain from sexual relations for more than just a very brief time is a far cry from defending sexual license among human beings, as you so glibly claim against Fr. Ambrose.  IOW, Mary, I find your selective use of quotations very deceiving and dishonest.


PS: You are more than willing to take Father Augustine's and Father Ambrose Young's posts totally out of context and shoot Father Augustine like a duck in a carnival arcade.  That seems to be just fine.


I am not taking aim at "Father Augustine" but at his perverse statements on marriage and sexuality.  You yourself did that too.

Why do you call him "Father Augustine"?  Who has tonsured him a monk?  My understanding is that he was received by the Greeks and became a spiritual child of Fr Ambrose Young.  Then lately he has left the Greeks... and may have entered ROCA?    If he is in fact a tonsured monk how on earth did he receive a canonical transfer from the Greeks to ROCA?  Nobody in ROCA seems to have heard of him.

Hitherto I have kept his name under wraps in this thread.  He is young and a work in progress, but you have now named him publicly.   Perhaps you could ask him these questions on your e-list?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 08:43:12 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #91 on: August 04, 2010, 08:44:04 PM »


But you have to admit that you're being dishonest by alleging that Fr. Ambrose advocates sexual license and by withholding information that refutes your allegation.  As I learned honesty, not telling the whole truth is often as bad as telling a lie.


No. I don't need to admit that at all.  

We are speaking in the context of an Orthodox Patriarch saying that he and the Catholic Pope are of like mind on moral issues.

In the context of ALL methods of birth control in Catholic marriages, for a priest to encourage a couple to go ahead and use barrier methods because abstinence is too difficult is an example of sexual license.  Perhaps you simply cannot follow my line of reasoning because you do not have a Catholic phronema.

Since Father Ambrose, from New Zealand, is very clear that his bishop supports his actions and so thereby his Patriarch.  Since that is the case my conclusions stand.

There is no moral like mindedness between the Patriarch in question and the Pope when it comes to artificial birth control.  So the entire assertion can be thrown out till there is a closer and more clearly stated accord.

Mary
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #92 on: August 04, 2010, 08:46:52 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.  
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?

If you be mindful that I have said that Father Ambrose leans on the side of laxity rather than strictness when it comes to human sexuality and moral practice,  and promotes barrier methods of birth control because he thinks that abstinence is too difficult for the average person,  then I will submit the following for your greater understanding of my own perceptions of the man and monk:

Ambrois O Maonaigh <emrys@globe.net.nz>
reply-to Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
date Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:35 AM
subject [Irenikon] Re: Sexuality and Contraception (a query to Fr. Ambrose)


--- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@...> wrote:

>
> So that leaves abstinence...for difficult cases....

Is that realistic? I've not been married but I can imagine that it would take a ton of forbearance to sleep night after night next to a bowl of luscious cherries (Song of Songs) and not take a bite.

Fr Ambrois
I don't think this message from Fr. Ambrose says quite what you think it says, particularly stripped from its context as you have rendered it.  For one, you've not provided any part of the conversation that reveals just exactly what you all were talking about.  You've explained it in your own words--IOW, spin--earlier in this post, but we need to see the actual conversation to be able to judge properly.  Fortunately, I just read that thread to which you make reference.  Fr. Ambrose was talking about sexual relations between a man and his wife.  To question the realism of any idea that a married couple should abstain from sexual relations for more than just a very brief time is a far cry from defending sexual license among human beings, as you so glibly claim against Fr. Ambrose.  IOW, Mary, I find your selective use of quotations very deceiving and dishonest.


PS: You are more than willing to take Father Augustine's and Father Ambrose Young's posts totally out of context and shoot Father Augustine like a duck in a carnival arcade.  That seems to be just fine.


I am not taking aim at "Father Augustine" but at his perverse statements on marriage and sexuality.  You yourself did that too.

Why do you call him "Father Augustine"?  Who has tonsured him a monk?  My understanding is that he was received by the Greeks and became a spiritual child of Fr Ambrose Young.  Then lately he has left the Greeks... and may have entered ROCA?    If he is in fact a tonsured monk how on earth did he receive a canonical transfer from the Greeks to ROCA?  Nobody in ROCA seems to have heard of him.

Hitherto I have kept his name under wraps in this thread.  He is young and a work in progress, but you have now named him publicly.   Perhaps you could ask him these questions on your e-list?

You will have to ask him yourself.  I have your private letter telling me that you were going to write to his mother and his bishop.  Apparently you've done your checking already.  I truly hope you did not bother his mother with such things.

This is really an Orthodox-Orthodox issue now, so perhaps you'd like to start a new thread about your findings on Father Deacon Augustine?

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #93 on: August 04, 2010, 08:48:22 PM »


Since Father Ambrose, from New Zealand, is very clear that his bishop supports his actions and so thereby his Patriarch.  Since that is the case my conclusions stand.

There is no moral like mindedness between the Patriarch in question and the Pope when it comes to artificial birth control.  So the entire assertion can be thrown out till there is a closer and more clearly stated accord.

Oh my!  So now you have ratcheted it up a peg and are accusing my bishops and my Patriarch of promoting sexual licence!!!

Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #94 on: August 04, 2010, 08:54:10 PM »

I have listened to your defense of sexual license among human beings for years.   
This is another piece of evidence that Catholics do not understand Orthodox teaching and so they distort it.    The presentation of accepted Orthodox teaching and guidelines in the use of contraception is assessed by Roman Catholics such as Elijahmaria as a "defense of sexual license among human beings..."
You have made your own position abundantly clear over the years.  You have indicated in a hundred different ways that ordinary people cannot be expected to do the hard work of sexual abstinence, even for a brief periodic time.  What kind of spiritual rigor does that produce, I wonder.  I have said all that I am going to say to you about that.

Based on Fr. Ambrose's posting history here, and despite the fact that he and I disagree on a subject or two generally, I find this hard to believe.  Proof?

If you be mindful that I have said that Father Ambrose leans on the side of laxity rather than strictness when it comes to human sexuality and moral practice,  and promotes barrier methods of birth control because he thinks that abstinence is too difficult for the average person,  then I will submit the following for your greater understanding of my own perceptions of the man and monk:

Ambrois O Maonaigh <emrys@globe.net.nz>
reply-to Irenikon@yahoogroups.com
date Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:35 AM
subject [Irenikon] Re: Sexuality and Contraception (a query to Fr. Ambrose)


--- In Irenikon@yahoogroups.com, Mary Lanser <mel5@...> wrote:

>
> So that leaves abstinence...for difficult cases....

Is that realistic? I've not been married but I can imagine that it would take a ton of forbearance to sleep night after night next to a bowl of luscious cherries (Song of Songs) and not take a bite.

Fr Ambrois
I don't think this message from Fr. Ambrose says quite what you think it says, particularly stripped from its context as you have rendered it.  For one, you've not provided any part of the conversation that reveals just exactly what you all were talking about.  You've explained it in your own words--IOW, spin--earlier in this post, but we need to see the actual conversation to be able to judge properly.  Fortunately, I just read that thread to which you make reference.  Fr. Ambrose was talking about sexual relations between a man and his wife.  To question the realism of any idea that a married couple should abstain from sexual relations for more than just a very brief time is a far cry from defending sexual license among human beings, as you so glibly claim against Fr. Ambrose.  IOW, Mary, I find your selective use of quotations very deceiving and dishonest.


PS: You are more than willing to take Father Augustine's and Father Ambrose Young's posts totally out of context and shoot Father Augustine like a duck in a carnival arcade.  That seems to be just fine.


I am not taking aim at "Father Augustine" but at his perverse statements on marriage and sexuality.  You yourself did that too.

Why do you call him "Father Augustine"?  Who has tonsured him a monk?  My understanding is that he was received by the Greeks and became a spiritual child of Fr Ambrose Young.  Then lately he has left the Greeks... and may have entered ROCA?    If he is in fact a tonsured monk how on earth did he receive a canonical transfer from the Greeks to ROCA?  Nobody in ROCA seems to have heard of him.

Hitherto I have kept his name under wraps in this thread.  He is young and a work in progress, but you have now named him publicly.   Perhaps you could ask him these questions on your e-list?

You will have to ask him yourself.  I have your private letter telling me that you were going to write to his mother and his bishop.

I believe that several of us, including the onlist bishop, toyed with the notion of writing to his bishop at the time he was bombarding the e-list with his septic views of marriage.  I imagine that nobody actually did.

Quote
This is really an Orthodox-Orthodox issue now, so perhaps you'd like to start a new thread about your findings on Father Deacon Augustine?

Somebody has made him a deacon?  Is he a hierodeacon or one of these newfangled celibate deacons?
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #95 on: August 04, 2010, 09:14:47 PM »


Since Father Ambrose, from New Zealand, is very clear that his bishop supports his actions and so thereby his Patriarch.  Since that is the case my conclusions stand.

There is no moral like mindedness between the Patriarch in question and the Pope when it comes to artificial birth control.  So the entire assertion can be thrown out till there is a closer and more clearly stated accord.

Oh my!  So now you have ratcheted it up a peg and are accusing my bishops and my Patriarch of promoting sexual licence!!!



Barrier method birth control, if what you say is correct.   That is what fits into my own assertion concerning the Patriarch's somewhat premature announcement about the like-mindedness of the Catholic Pope on moral issues.

M.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #96 on: August 04, 2010, 09:20:50 PM »


Barrier method birth control, if what you say is correct.   


To be exact, that is not what I say.  "Barrier method birth control" is your terminology.    The term which I use is the one used in the 2000 Statement of the Patriarch and the Russian Synod, "Non-abortive contraception."
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #97 on: August 04, 2010, 09:31:19 PM »


That is what fits into my own assertion concerning the Patriarch's somewhat premature announcement about the like-mindedness of the Catholic Pope on moral issues.


 If you read the Zenit article, it is not making the claims that you think.

http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english

Here for example are the Patriarch's words:

"However, in his approach on many public and moral issues, the Pope coincides fully with the approach of the Russian Orthodox Church.."

Notice the many, not all.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #98 on: August 04, 2010, 09:33:26 PM »


That is what fits into my own assertion concerning the Patriarch's somewhat premature announcement about the like-mindedness of the Catholic Pope on moral issues.


 If you read the Zenit article, it is not making the claims that you think.

http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english

Here for example are the Patriarch's words:

"However, in his approach on many public and moral issues, the Pope coincides fully with the approach of the Russian Orthodox Church.."

Notice the many, not all.

Well there ya have it.  End of discussion.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #99 on: August 04, 2010, 09:34:17 PM »


Barrier method birth control, if what you say is correct.   


To be exact, that is not what I say.  "Barrier method birth control" is your terminology.    The term which I use is the one used in the 2000 Statement of the Patriarch and the Russian Synod, "Non-abortive contraception."

Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2010, 09:43:30 PM »


Barrier method birth control, if what you say is correct.   


To be exact, that is not what I say.  "Barrier method birth control" is your terminology.    The term which I use is the one used in the 2000 Statement of the Patriarch and the Russian Synod, "Non-abortive contraception."

Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.

Is there an ectopic pregnancy surgery which does not act as an abortifacient?
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2010, 09:50:57 PM »



Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.
This is problematical since it is reported that so many American Catholic women today are taking the birth control pill, but as far as I can see they are not excommunicated for having abortions induced by the pill. 
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2010, 09:53:15 PM »


Barrier method birth control, if what you say is correct.   


To be exact, that is not what I say.  "Barrier method birth control" is your terminology.    The term which I use is the one used in the 2000 Statement of the Patriarch and the Russian Synod, "Non-abortive contraception."

Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.

Is there an ectopic pregnancy surgery which does not act as an abortifacient?

The is NO chance for viability of the baby in an ectopic pregnancy.  Zero chance.  No exceptions.

Do you know anyone who calls ectopic surgery an abortion?

Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2010, 09:55:13 PM »



Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.
This is problematical since it is reported that so many American Catholic women today are taking the birth control pill, but as far as I can see they are not excommunicated for having abortions induced by the pill. 

How is it problematical?  It is sinful.  But does it negate the teaching?

Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2010, 09:59:52 PM »


Barrier method birth control, if what you say is correct.   


To be exact, that is not what I say.  "Barrier method birth control" is your terminology.    The term which I use is the one used in the 2000 Statement of the Patriarch and the Russian Synod, "Non-abortive contraception."

Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.

Is there an ectopic pregnancy surgery which does not act as an abortifacient?

The is NO chance for viability of the baby in an ectopic pregnancy.  Zero chance.  No exceptions.

Do you know anyone who calls ectopic surgery an abortion?



I would regard the surgery needed to end an ectopic pregnancy as involving an abortifacient procedure.  The foetus does not come out of it alive.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #105 on: August 04, 2010, 10:07:17 PM »


Barrier method birth control, if what you say is correct.   


To be exact, that is not what I say.  "Barrier method birth control" is your terminology.    The term which I use is the one used in the 2000 Statement of the Patriarch and the Russian Synod, "Non-abortive contraception."

Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.

Is there an ectopic pregnancy surgery which does not act as an abortifacient?

The is NO chance for viability of the baby in an ectopic pregnancy.  Zero chance.  No exceptions.

Do you know anyone who calls ectopic surgery an abortion?



I would regard the surgery needed to end an ectopic pregnancy as involving an abortifacient procedure.  The foetus does not come out of it alive.

I would regard an ectopic pregnancy as a non-viable pregnancy under any conditions.  Therefore ectopic surgery is not, morally speaking, an abortion.

Recommending ectopic surgery is morally not in the same class as recommending artificial birth control because one cannot fathom how a married couple can practice periodic abstinence.

M.
Logged

PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,899


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #106 on: August 04, 2010, 11:01:04 PM »


That is what fits into my own assertion concerning the Patriarch's somewhat premature announcement about the like-mindedness of the Catholic Pope on moral issues.


 If you read the Zenit article, it is not making the claims that you think.

http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english

Here for example are the Patriarch's words:

"However, in his approach on many public and moral issues, the Pope coincides fully with the approach of the Russian Orthodox Church.."

Notice the many, not all.

Well there ya have it.  End of discussion.
Why should that be surprising?  You started this discussion--yeah, I know, Fr. Ambrose started the thread, but the real debate started with you--by jumping all over the birth control and abortion wagon. Wink
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #107 on: August 04, 2010, 11:02:10 PM »


That is what fits into my own assertion concerning the Patriarch's somewhat premature announcement about the like-mindedness of the Catholic Pope on moral issues.


 If you read the Zenit article, it is not making the claims that you think.

http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english

Here for example are the Patriarch's words:

"However, in his approach on many public and moral issues, the Pope coincides fully with the approach of the Russian Orthodox Church.."

Notice the many, not all.

Well there ya have it.  End of discussion.
Why should that be surprising?  You started this discussion--yeah, I know, Fr. Ambrose started the thread, but the real debate started with you--by jumping all over the birth control and abortion wagon. Wink

 angel
Logged

Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #108 on: August 04, 2010, 11:26:18 PM »

Irish Hermit and elijahmaria,

I implore you, as the moderator of this sub-forum, to take a step back and spend a day in reflection on how both of you are presenting yourselves to this website and to the world at large.  This is obviously a very deep-seated argument you two are having with one another out in public.  Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, please take a moment to remember that your words here on the internet are forever and, thanks to the way humanity looks at people nowadays, will be indicative of both your reputations, for better or for worse.

This constant bickering between you two often goes past the issue being discussed.  Please put an end to it, at least in this thread.

Thank you.

Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #109 on: August 04, 2010, 11:29:16 PM »

Irish Hermit and elijahmaria,

I implore you, as the moderator of this sub-forum, to take a step back and spend a day in reflection on how both of you are presenting yourselves to this website and to the world at large.  This is obviously a very deep-seated argument you two are having with one another out in public.  Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, please take a moment to remember that your words here on the internet are forever and, thanks to the way humanity looks at people nowadays, will be indicative of both your reputations, for better or for worse.

This constant bickering between you two often goes past the issue being discussed.  Please put an end to it, at least in this thread.

Thank you.

Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator.


You are quite right and I am sorry I sailed out into that deep!!

I apologize to Father Ambrose as well.

I should have caved when Father George called for proof.  I knew it was time then and I did the opposite. 

I was wrong.

M.
Logged

stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2010, 12:23:43 AM »



Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.
This is problematical since it is reported that so many American Catholic women today are taking the birth control pill, but as far as I can see they are not excommunicated for having abortions induced by the pill. 

How is it problematical?  It is sinful.  But does it negate the teaching?


Why are they not excommunicated since they are having abortions by taking the pill?
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #111 on: August 05, 2010, 04:44:42 AM »

Irish Hermit and elijahmaria,

I implore you, as the moderator of this sub-forum, to take a step back and spend a day in reflection on how both of you are presenting yourselves to this website and to the world at large.  This is obviously a very deep-seated argument you two are having with one another out in public.  Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, please take a moment to remember that your words here on the internet are forever and, thanks to the way humanity looks at people nowadays, will be indicative of both your reputations, for better or for worse.

This constant bickering between you two often goes past the issue being discussed.  Please put an end to it, at least in this thread.

Thank you.

Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator.


You are quite right and I am sorry I sailed out into that deep!!

I apologize to Father Ambrose as well.

I should have caved when Father George called for proof.  I knew it was time then and I did the opposite. 

I was wrong.

M.

APOLOGY

Dear Mary,

Thank you. I accept your apology and saying that you were wrong in the claim that I have been preaching sexual licence to the faithful for years.   

Thank you to Schultz who has brought this to a conclusion.

And to Mary -my own apology for any stress I have caused.

Fr Ambrose
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 04:46:26 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #112 on: August 05, 2010, 10:08:19 AM »

Irish Hermit and elijahmaria,

I implore you, as the moderator of this sub-forum, to take a step back and spend a day in reflection on how both of you are presenting yourselves to this website and to the world at large.  This is obviously a very deep-seated argument you two are having with one another out in public.  Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, please take a moment to remember that your words here on the internet are forever and, thanks to the way humanity looks at people nowadays, will be indicative of both your reputations, for better or for worse.

This constant bickering between you two often goes past the issue being discussed.  Please put an end to it, at least in this thread.

Thank you.

Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator.


You are quite right and I am sorry I sailed out into that deep!!

I apologize to Father Ambrose as well.

I should have caved when Father George called for proof.  I knew it was time then and I did the opposite. 

I was wrong.

M.

APOLOGY

Dear Mary,

Thank you. I accept your apology and saying that you were wrong in the claim that I have been preaching sexual licence to the faithful for years.   

Thank you to Schultz who has brought this to a conclusion.

And to Mary -my own apology for any stress I have caused.

Fr Ambrose


It's true Father.  You are not a licentious priest or man nor do you encourage such behaviors in a general way.

I still think that Orthodoxy, in general, is making a moral mistake by calling for artificial birth control methods rather than teaching periodic abstinence as the rule.   I think you in particular are equally mistaken and do give license to certain kinds of thinking that are not conducive to spiritual depth and growth.  I cannot apologize for that.

I think my own Church will learn this lesson...and by that I mean shepherds and flocks...and I believe yours will as well....one way or another.

M.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #113 on: August 05, 2010, 10:12:37 AM »



Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.
This is problematical since it is reported that so many American Catholic women today are taking the birth control pill, but as far as I can see they are not excommunicated for having abortions induced by the pill. 

How is it problematical?  It is sinful.  But does it negate the teaching?


Why are they not excommunicated since they are having abortions by taking the pill?

They are Stanley.  Nobody stands up and points fingers at them because we don't know who they are in many cases...most cases...But they excommunicate themselves by their behaviors and lack of repentance and they commune to their own condemnation.

And that is not a joke and is not something to be brushed aside.  We should pray for them every moment of every day for there are souls in the balance and the harder the heart the more chance they have of damnation.

But nobody really believes that anymore do they  Tongue
Logged

Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #114 on: August 05, 2010, 10:25:47 AM »

Irish Hermit and elijahmaria,

I implore you, as the moderator of this sub-forum, to take a step back and spend a day in reflection on how both of you are presenting yourselves to this website and to the world at large.  This is obviously a very deep-seated argument you two are having with one another out in public.  Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, please take a moment to remember that your words here on the internet are forever and, thanks to the way humanity looks at people nowadays, will be indicative of both your reputations, for better or for worse.

This constant bickering between you two often goes past the issue being discussed.  Please put an end to it, at least in this thread.

Thank you.

Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator.


You are quite right and I am sorry I sailed out into that deep!!

I apologize to Father Ambrose as well.

I should have caved when Father George called for proof.  I knew it was time then and I did the opposite. 

I was wrong.

M.

APOLOGY

Dear Mary,

Thank you. I accept your apology and saying that you were wrong in the claim that I have been preaching sexual licence to the faithful for years.   

Thank you to Schultz who has brought this to a conclusion.

And to Mary -my own apology for any stress I have caused.

Fr Ambrose


It's true Father.  You are not a licentious priest or man nor do you encourage such behaviors in a general way.

I still think that Orthodoxy, in general, is making a moral mistake by calling for artificial birth control methods rather than teaching periodic abstinence as the rule.   I think you in particular are equally mistaken and do give license to certain kinds of thinking that are not conducive to spiritual depth and growth.  I cannot apologize for that.

I think my own Church will learn this lesson...and by that I mean shepherds and flocks...and I believe yours will as well....one way or another.

M.

And so it continues. When will you understand that the Orthodox Church does not "call for artificial birth control methods." Where do you find this except for the teachings of some priests? What canon allows this? What holy elder allows for it in his writings? You have cited very little evidence and nothing that would make this the teaching of the Orthodox Church. There is no blessing for it. If married couples do it and some spiritual fathers are understanding in the matter because the use of non-abortofacient birth control prevents a greater sin as they come to understand in giving pastoral  counsel, this does not indicate that it is the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Because a spiritual father chooses, for reasons of trying to prevent a soul's destruction, not to enforce the stricture of a canon, this does not mean that the Orthodox Church is lax in a matter. In many local churches, such as the Greek Orthodox Church, as I have been given to understand, those using non-abortofacient birth control can only commune four times a year on certain great feasts. But you want to justify yourself by denigrating the Orthodox Church.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #115 on: August 05, 2010, 10:31:48 AM »


And so it continues. When will you understand that the Orthodox Church does not "call for artificial birth control methods." Where do you find this except for the teachings of some priests? What canon allows this? What holy elder allows for it in his writings? You have cited very little evidence and nothing that would make this the teaching of the Orthodox Church. There is no blessing for it. If married couples do it and some spiritual fathers are understanding in the matter because the use of non-abortofacient birth control prevents a greater sin as they come to understand in giving pastoral  counsel, this does not indicate that it is the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Because a spiritual father chooses, for reasons of trying to prevent a soul's destruction, not to enforce the stricture of a canon, this does not mean that the Orthodox Church is lax in a matter. In many local churches, such as the Greek Orthodox Church, as I have been given to understand, those using non-abortofacient birth control can only commune four times a year on certain great feasts. But you want to justify yourself by denigrating the Orthodox Church.

I will understand these things more fully when they are made more clear formally by Orthodox hierarchs and clergy.   I expect the continuing dialogue between Rome and the Orthodox hierarchs will help to clarify many things.

Who are you trying to justify here?  Inquiring minds and all that since you choose to accuse....

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #116 on: August 05, 2010, 10:36:06 AM »



Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.
This is problematical since it is reported that so many American Catholic women today are taking the birth control pill, but as far as I can see they are not excommunicated for having abortions induced by the pill. 

How is it problematical?  It is sinful.  But does it negate the teaching?


Why are they not excommunicated since they are having abortions by taking the pill?

They are Stanley.  Nobody stands up and points fingers at them because we don't know who they are in many cases...most cases...But they excommunicate themselves by their behaviors and lack of repentance and they commune to their own condemnation.

And that is not a joke and is not something to be brushed aside.  We should pray for them every moment of every day for there are souls in the balance and the harder the heart the more chance they have of damnation.

But nobody really believes that anymore do they  Tongue

I think the blame lies with Pope Paul VI and his adamantine forbidding of all contraception as mortally sinful and bringing damnation.

By Catholic teaching a woman is damned if she uses either the Pill or if she cooperates with her husband in using condoms.  Both methods bring eternal death.    So the couple will simply choose whichever method suits them better, knowing that both damn them equally.

By contrast the Orthodox know that they are permitted to use condoms but not permitted to use abortive methods such as the Pill.    So they will choose to use condoms.   (I not saying that some do not use the Pill though.)


We know from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that around 97% of married Catholics use contraceptive methods which their Church condemns as gravely sinful.  It is probably true that the majority of these are not bothering with condoms but instead are using the abortifacient Pill.

Truly sad, that Catholics are aborting so many millions of their young.   It would have been far better if Paul VI had taken a less hard-line view and allowed the use of condoms.  The Catholic rate of murder would have been far less.

In this respect I would agree with Mary that the Patriarch was wrong in seeing our moral ethos as identical.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #117 on: August 05, 2010, 10:47:13 AM »



Is there a pill that doesn't act as an abortifacient?

M.
This is problematical since it is reported that so many American Catholic women today are taking the birth control pill, but as far as I can see they are not excommunicated for having abortions induced by the pill. 

How is it problematical?  It is sinful.  But does it negate the teaching?


Why are they not excommunicated since they are having abortions by taking the pill?

They are Stanley.  Nobody stands up and points fingers at them because we don't know who they are in many cases...most cases...But they excommunicate themselves by their behaviors and lack of repentance and they commune to their own condemnation.

And that is not a joke and is not something to be brushed aside.  We should pray for them every moment of every day for there are souls in the balance and the harder the heart the more chance they have of damnation.

But nobody really believes that anymore do they  Tongue

I think the blame lies with Pope Paul VI and his adamantine forbidding of all contraception as mortally sinful and bringing damnation.

By Catholic teaching a woman is damned if she uses either the Pill or if she cooperates with her husband in using condoms.  Both methods bring eternal death.    So the couple will simply choose whichever method suits them better, knowing that both damn them equally.

By contrast the Orthodox know that they are permitted to use condoms but not permitted to use abortive methods such as the Pill.    So they will choose to use condoms.   (I not saying that some do not use the Pill though.)


We know from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that around 97% of married Catholics use contraceptive methods which their Church condemns as gravely sinful.  It is probably true that the majority of these are not bothering with condoms but instead are using the abortifacient Pill.

Truly sad, that Catholics are aborting so many millions of their young.   It would have been far better if Paul VI had taken a less hard-line view and allowed the use of condoms.  The Catholic rate of murder would have been far less.

In this respect I would agree with Mary that the Patriarch was wrong in seeing our moral ethos as identical.

The difficulty with such laxity, Father, is that you can take this same parsing of better and worse sins and apply it to every sin in the Decalogue.

Murder as opposed to a little high strung tension and frustration....as though a little frustration and tension over time cannot harden the human heart!!

A little harmless playful passive sexual desire acted out as fantasy internally, as opposed to full blown and active lust....as though the fantasy of the libido over time cannot harden the human heart!!

etc., etc., etc.

It is an asinine argument, Father and one not worthy of a faith steeped in the desert fathers as well as the patristic ones!!

Well...there goes the neanderthal!!...I just cannot seem to be able to pull myself up out of the dark ages of Catholic guilt!

Mary
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #118 on: August 05, 2010, 10:47:49 AM »

Irish Hermit and elijahmaria,

I implore you, as the moderator of this sub-forum, to take a step back and spend a day in reflection on how both of you are presenting yourselves to this website and to the world at large.  This is obviously a very deep-seated argument you two are having with one another out in public.  Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, please take a moment to remember that your words here on the internet are forever and, thanks to the way humanity looks at people nowadays, will be indicative of both your reputations, for better or for worse.

This constant bickering between you two often goes past the issue being discussed.  Please put an end to it, at least in this thread.

Thank you.

Schultz.
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator.


You are quite right and I am sorry I sailed out into that deep!!

I apologize to Father Ambrose as well.

I should have caved when Father George called for proof.  I knew it was time then and I did the opposite. 

I was wrong.

M.

APOLOGY

Dear Mary,

Thank you. I accept your apology and saying that you were wrong in the claim that I have been preaching sexual licence to the faithful for years.   

Thank you to Schultz who has brought this to a conclusion.

And to Mary -my own apology for any stress I have caused.

Fr Ambrose


It's true Father.  You are not a licentious priest or man nor do you encourage such behaviors in a general way.

I still think that Orthodoxy, in general, is making a moral mistake by calling for artificial birth control methods rather than teaching periodic abstinence as the rule.   I think you in particular are equally mistaken and do give license to certain kinds of thinking that are not conducive to spiritual depth and growth.  I cannot apologize for that.

I think my own Church will learn this lesson...and by that I mean shepherds and flocks...and I believe yours will as well....one way or another.

M.

And so it continues. When will you understand that the Orthodox Church does not "call for artificial birth control methods." Where do you find this except for the teachings of some priests? What canon allows this? What holy elder allows for it in his writings? You have cited very little evidence and nothing that would make this the teaching of the Orthodox Church. There is no blessing for it. If married couples do it and some spiritual fathers are understanding in the matter because the use of non-abortofacient birth control prevents a greater sin as they come to understand in giving pastoral  counsel, this does not indicate that it is the teaching of the Orthodox Church. Because a spiritual father chooses, for reasons of trying to prevent a soul's destruction, not to enforce the stricture of a canon, this does not mean that the Orthodox Church is lax in a matter. In many local churches, such as the Greek Orthodox Church, as I have been given to understand, those using non-abortofacient birth control can only commune four times a year on certain great feasts. But you want to justify yourself by denigrating the Orthodox Church.

Father Ambrose makes my case.

Thanks.

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #119 on: August 05, 2010, 11:08:34 AM »


Father Ambrose makes my case.

Thanks.

Please go back to message 64 which gives my Church's teaching on contraception
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28877.msg459865.html#msg459865

The unfortunate policy of the Catholic Church has resulted in the ongoing murder of millions of Catholic babies by Catholic women using the Pill.

Possibly Pope Paul VI had not taken the enormous number of these homicides into consideration when he issued Humanae Vitae in 1965.  At the time of his writing the encyclical the use of the Pill was being made available to the masses.

By contrast the Orthodox permission to use condoms avoids such murders of the innocent.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #120 on: August 05, 2010, 11:23:54 AM »


Father Ambrose makes my case.

Thanks.

Please go back to message 64 which gives my Church's teaching on contraception
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28877.msg459865.html#msg459865

The unfortunate policy of the Catholic Church has resulted in the ongoing murder of millions of Catholic babies by Catholic women using the Pill.

Possibly Pope Paul VI had not taken the enormous number of these homicides into consideration when he issued Humanae Vitae in 1965.  At the time of his writing the encyclical the use of the Pill was being made available to the masses.

By contrast the Orthodox permission to use condoms avoids such murders of the innocent.

What? 

Are you really telling me that Catholic women take the pill because the Church teaches they cannot use condoms?  Why not just tell them about the pills that don't appear to be abortifacients?

Do you really think that when faced with a choice that thoroughly modern married guys and gals are going to choose the "raincoat" when they can take a little pill instead?

You will go to great lengths to say some of the evil things that you say about the Catholic Church and use the most inane arguments to justify your little games.

M.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #121 on: August 05, 2010, 11:31:57 AM »


Father Ambrose makes my case.

Thanks.

Please go back to message 64 which gives my Church's teaching on contraception
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28877.msg459865.html#msg459865

The unfortunate policy of the Catholic Church has resulted in the ongoing murder of millions of Catholic babies by Catholic women using the Pill.

Possibly Pope Paul VI had not taken the enormous number of these homicides into consideration when he issued Humanae Vitae in 1965.  At the time of his writing the encyclical the use of the Pill was being made available to the masses.

By contrast the Orthodox permission to use condoms avoids such murders of the innocent.

What? 

Are you really telling me that Catholic women take the pill because the Church teaches they cannot use condoms? 


No, that is simply silly.

Catholic couples are told that both the Pill and condoms will send them to hell.

The result for their spiritual fate in eternity is the same - eternal fire.

So the Catholic couples whom I know using contraception chose to use the Pill - they're told they're going to hell either way, right?   Catholic couples find the use of the Pill more convenient than condoms. 

Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #122 on: August 05, 2010, 11:45:19 AM »


Father Ambrose makes my case.

Thanks.

Please go back to message 64 which gives my Church's teaching on contraception
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28877.msg459865.html#msg459865

The unfortunate policy of the Catholic Church has resulted in the ongoing murder of millions of Catholic babies by Catholic women using the Pill.

Possibly Pope Paul VI had not taken the enormous number of these homicides into consideration when he issued Humanae Vitae in 1965.  At the time of his writing the encyclical the use of the Pill was being made available to the masses.

By contrast the Orthodox permission to use condoms avoids such murders of the innocent.

What? 

Are you really telling me that Catholic women take the pill because the Church teaches they cannot use condoms? 


No, that is simply silly.

Catholic couples are told that both the Pill and condoms will send them to hell.

The result for their spiritual fate in eternity is the same - eternal fire.

So the Catholic couples whom I know using contraception chose to use the Pill - they're told they're going to hell either way, right?   Catholic couples find the use of the Pill more convenient than condoms. 


And Orthodox couples do not?

If couples will not use condoms predictably and properly to keep from transmitting HIV-AIDS and the hell on earth that brings, what makes you think they will happily use condoms to stay out of a metaphorical lake of fire that they can be prayed out from anyway?

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #123 on: August 05, 2010, 11:52:02 AM »


Father Ambrose makes my case.

Thanks.

Please go back to message 64 which gives my Church's teaching on contraception
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28877.msg459865.html#msg459865

The unfortunate policy of the Catholic Church has resulted in the ongoing murder of millions of Catholic babies by Catholic women using the Pill.

Possibly Pope Paul VI had not taken the enormous number of these homicides into consideration when he issued Humanae Vitae in 1965.  At the time of his writing the encyclical the use of the Pill was being made available to the masses.

By contrast the Orthodox permission to use condoms avoids such murders of the innocent.

What? 

Are you really telling me that Catholic women take the pill because the Church teaches they cannot use condoms? 


No, that is simply silly.

Catholic couples are told that both the Pill and condoms will send them to hell.

The result for their spiritual fate in eternity is the same - eternal fire.

So the Catholic couples whom I know using contraception chose to use the Pill - they're told they're going to hell either way, right?   Catholic couples find the use of the Pill more convenient than condoms. 


And Orthodox couples do not?


In my experience, generally no.   You may like to consult Fr Ambrose Young about his experience (although I do not know the sizes of the parishes of which he was parish priest.)
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #124 on: August 05, 2010, 11:59:57 AM »


Father Ambrose makes my case.

Thanks.

Please go back to message 64 which gives my Church's teaching on contraception
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28877.msg459865.html#msg459865

The unfortunate policy of the Catholic Church has resulted in the ongoing murder of millions of Catholic babies by Catholic women using the Pill.

Possibly Pope Paul VI had not taken the enormous number of these homicides into consideration when he issued Humanae Vitae in 1965.  At the time of his writing the encyclical the use of the Pill was being made available to the masses.

By contrast the Orthodox permission to use condoms avoids such murders of the innocent.

What? 

Are you really telling me that Catholic women take the pill because the Church teaches they cannot use condoms? 


No, that is simply silly.

Catholic couples are told that both the Pill and condoms will send them to hell.

The result for their spiritual fate in eternity is the same - eternal fire.

So the Catholic couples whom I know using contraception chose to use the Pill - they're told they're going to hell either way, right?   Catholic couples find the use of the Pill more convenient than condoms. 


And Orthodox couples do not?


In my experience, generally no.   You may like to consult Fr Ambrose Young about his experience (although I do not know the sizes of the parishes of which he was parish priest.)


This still does not negate the fact that you have traded one sin for another.  And I do not think your experience with condom users is necessarily universal, any more than it is verifiable.

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #125 on: August 05, 2010, 12:09:05 PM »


In my experience, generally no.   You may like to consult Fr Ambrose Young about his experience (although I do not know the sizes of the parishes of which he was parish priest.)


This still does not negate the fact that you have traded one sin for another.  And I do not think your experience with condom users is necessarily universal,


My experience spans 30 years as parish priest and of course confessor of 3 Russian parishes and 1 Serbian one.  Admittedly not the universe!   Smiley

Quote
any more than it is verifiable.

Probably more verifiable than the anonymous group of Orthodox bishops and priests to whom you often refer to back up your negative opinions on Orthodoxy.   laugh
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 12:10:14 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #126 on: August 05, 2010, 12:14:31 PM »


In my experience, generally no.   You may like to consult Fr Ambrose Young about his experience (although I do not know the sizes of the parishes of which he was parish priest.)


This still does not negate the fact that you have traded one sin for another.  And I do not think your experience with condom users is necessarily universal,


My experience spans 30 years as parish priest and of course confessor of 3 Russian parishes and 1 Serbian one.  Admittedly not the universe!   Smiley

Quote
any more than it is verifiable.

Probably more verifiable than the anonymous group of Orthodox bishops and priests to whom you often refer to back up your negative opinions on Orthodoxy.   laugh

Until the Catholic and Orthodox confessions speak as one on issues of sexual morality, you can go ahead and laugh your head off.  And we will both eventually see who laughs best....

Mary
Logged

Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #127 on: August 05, 2010, 12:27:05 PM »

And with that, this merry-go-round is shut down for the rest of the carnival.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 12:27:26 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.535 seconds with 155 queries.