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Author Topic: what IS sex?  (Read 11515 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2010, 08:07:00 AM »

You regulary speculating on Church Fathers as  well you twisting my statements.

I do not disrespect marriage.

We talk her about sexual intercourse as form of pleasure.
Any flesh pressure is lust, food, sex etc.
No matter you excepting it or not.

Flesh and blood do not belong to Heavenly Kingdom.
Any pleasure form things which not belong to Heavenly Kingdom and it  desire such pleasure called lust.
Some lust – insignificant and could be easy managed, some deadly.

You may ignore it , but it would not change it.


Then build a case from the Church Fathers and the Scripture, showing that the Church really teaches things like: "Any flesh pressure is lust" and "Any pleasure form things which not belong to Heavenly Kingdom and it desire such pleasure called lust" and "Lust is any form of flesh pleasure desire"?
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« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2010, 08:19:41 AM »

Then build a case from the Church Fathers and the Scripture, showing that the Church really teaches things like: "Any flesh pressure is lust" and "Any pleasure form things which not belong to Heavenly Kingdom and it desire such pleasure called lust" and "Lust is any form of flesh pleasure desire"?

I cant help your ignorance.
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« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2010, 08:35:42 AM »

Then build a case from the Church Fathers and the Scripture, showing that the Church really teaches things like: "Any flesh pressure is lust" and "Any pleasure form things which not belong to Heavenly Kingdom and it desire such pleasure called lust" and "Lust is any form of flesh pleasure desire"?

I cant help your ignorance.

"For he who sins, in the degree in which he sins, becomes worse and is of less estimation than before; and he who has been overcome by base pleasures, has now licentiousness wholly attached to him. Wherefore he who commits fornication is wholly dead to God, and is abandoned by the Word as a dead body by the spirit. For what is holy, as is right, abhors to be polluted. But it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure." - St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10

Lust is wrong, fornication is wrong, but attraction and desire are not: "it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure". And another relevant passage:

"Tell me not that the body is a cause of sin. For if the body is a cause of sin, why does not a dead body sin? Put a sword in the right hand of one just dead, and no murder takes place. Let beauties of every kind pass before a youth just dead, and no impure desire arises. Why? Because the body sins not of itself, but the soul through the body. The body is an instrument, and, as it were, a garment and robe of the soul: and if by this latter it be given over to fornication, it becomes defiled: but if it dwell with a holy soul, it becomes a temple of the Holy Ghost." - St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4, 23
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« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2010, 09:08:47 AM »

Ok, last post of quotes, just wanted to give some more passages from St. John Chrysostom that I found in the book Women and Men in the Early Church by David C. Ford…

“Blame not natural desire. Natural desire was bestowed with a view to marriage; it was given with a view to the procreation of children, not with a view to adultery and corruption.” - Homily 2 on Ephesians

“For truly, truly this love is stronger than any tyranny; other desires may be strong, but this one never fades. This love is deeply planted within our nature. Unnoticed by us, it attracts the bodies of men and women to each other, because in the beginning woman came forth from man, and now from man and woman both men and women proceed.” - Homily 20 on Ephesians

“And while thou, fresh from the company of your own wife, darest not pray, although this is no blame at all; do you lift up your hands, fresh from reviling and insult, which brings after it no less than hell, before you have well cleansed yourself? And how do you not shudder? Tell me. Have you not heard Paul, saying, ‘Marriage is honorable, and the bed undefiled?’ (Heb. 13:4) But if on rising from the undefiled bed, you dare not draw near in prayer, how do you coming from the bed of the devil call on that awful and terrible name? For it is truly the devil's bed, to wallow in insults and reviling. And like some wicked adulterer, wrath dallies with us in great delight, casting into us deadly seed, and making us give birth to diabolical enmity, and doing all things in a way opposite to marriage. For whereas marriage causes the two to become one flesh, wrath severs into many parts them that were united, and cleaves and cuts in pieces the very soul.” - Homily 51 on Matthew
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« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2010, 09:21:24 AM »

1. Do not mix yourself with Adam in Edem. befor fall.
Psalm 50:7(51:5-6)

Why? I also don't see the relation between your answer and that quote.

2. Multiply and have sex – not synonyms.

We don't use agamogenesis.
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« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2010, 09:29:14 AM »

Ok, last post of quotes, just wanted to give some more passages

Sorry for you choose to constantly twisting meaning and speculation on text.
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« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2010, 09:46:35 AM »

1. Do not mix yourself with Adam in Edem. befor fall.
Psalm 50:7(51:5-6)

Why? I also don't see the relation between your answer and that quote.


to bad for you.
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« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2010, 09:50:32 AM »

Quote from: Proverbs 5, 15-20
Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. Should your springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in the public squares? Let them be yours alone, never to be shared with strangers. May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer — may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love. Why, my son, be intoxicated with another man’s wife? Why embrace the bosom of a wayward woman?
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« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2010, 09:58:12 AM »

Then build a case from the Church Fathers and the Scripture, showing that the Church really teaches things like: "Any flesh pressure is lust" and "Any pleasure form things which not belong to Heavenly Kingdom and it desire such pleasure called lust" and "Lust is any form of flesh pleasure desire"?

I cant help your ignorance.

"For he who sins, in the degree in which he sins, becomes worse and is of less estimation than before; and he who has been overcome by base pleasures, has now licentiousness wholly attached to him. Wherefore he who commits fornication is wholly dead to God, and is abandoned by the Word as a dead body by the spirit. For what is holy, as is right, abhors to be polluted. But it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure." - St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10

Lust is wrong, fornication is wrong, but attraction and desire are not: "it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure". And another relevant passage:
St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10:

Some people consider own sins as pleasure granted by nature……
…… But in siner, whom constantly get exited by emotional desire, constantly live defect of  intemperance. For any one with luck of self control is dead for God. Logos and Holy Spirit left him. Hi is corp. It is natural. Holy not wish to be touched by filth. Clean only stay in touch with clean.



man you in deception.....
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« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2010, 11:36:27 AM »

Sex is form of lust.

Sex in marriage is low form of lust, same like nice tea, fresh water in hot day etc.

Not everyone was meant to experience sex.  If you have submitted yourself to that description, you can express what you just said just don't expect to unilaterally impose your views on those who have experienced sex.
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« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2010, 04:57:22 PM »

Then build a case from the Church Fathers and the Scripture, showing that the Church really teaches things like: "Any flesh pressure is lust" and "Any pleasure form things which not belong to Heavenly Kingdom and it desire such pleasure called lust" and "Lust is any form of flesh pleasure desire"?

I cant help your ignorance.

"For he who sins, in the degree in which he sins, becomes worse and is of less estimation than before; and he who has been overcome by base pleasures, has now licentiousness wholly attached to him. Wherefore he who commits fornication is wholly dead to God, and is abandoned by the Word as a dead body by the spirit. For what is holy, as is right, abhors to be polluted. But it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure." - St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10

Lust is wrong, fornication is wrong, but attraction and desire are not: "it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure". And another relevant passage:
St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10:

Some people consider own sins as pleasure granted by nature……
…… But in siner, whom constantly get exited by emotional desire, constantly live defect of  intemperance. For any one with luck of self control is dead for God. Logos and Holy Spirit left him. Hi is corp. It is natural. Holy not wish to be touched by filth. Clean only stay in touch with clean.



man you in deception.....
Have you more fathers to cite than just Clement of Alexandria? Before you accuse someone of being deceived, you first have to set the case for what is truth. So far the only case I've seen you make is statement and restatement of your own dogmatic opinions. Unless you're God, your own opinions don't count as truth per se.
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« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2010, 05:08:29 PM »

Have you more fathers to cite than just Clement of Alexandria? Before you accuse someone of being deceived, you first have to set the case for what is truth. So far the only case I've seen you make is statement and restatement of your own dogmatic opinions. Unless you're God, your own opinions don't count as truth per se.

I didn't think that his alternative translation contradicted what I said anyway... but then someone like me who is deceived won't actually realise it I suppose  Cool
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« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2010, 05:14:13 PM »

Christ enjoyed what he ate and drank when he was on earth. Was Christ "lusting"? The wedding wine in Cana anyone?
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« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2010, 06:31:28 PM »

Sex in marriage is not generally a form of lust.  Goodness gracious, people.  It can be used to diminish lust in one's life, it can be detrimental if it is too self-centered; but if the people's hearts are in the right place, I believe that lust has nothing to do with it.

Father George - I agree 100%. Well said.

My golly Heorhij, I agree, too.  If we both agree, it must be the truth  laugh

Hear, hear.  laugh
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« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2010, 07:13:47 PM »

Then build a case from the Church Fathers and the Scripture, showing that the Church really teaches things like: "Any flesh pressure is lust" and "Any pleasure form things which not belong to Heavenly Kingdom and it desire such pleasure called lust" and "Lust is any form of flesh pleasure desire"?

I cant help your ignorance.

"For he who sins, in the degree in which he sins, becomes worse and is of less estimation than before; and he who has been overcome by base pleasures, has now licentiousness wholly attached to him. Wherefore he who commits fornication is wholly dead to God, and is abandoned by the Word as a dead body by the spirit. For what is holy, as is right, abhors to be polluted. But it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure." - St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10

Lust is wrong, fornication is wrong, but attraction and desire are not: "it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure". And another relevant passage:
St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10:

Some people consider own sins as pleasure granted by nature……
…… But in siner, whom constantly get exited by emotional desire, constantly live defect of  intemperance. For any one with luck of self control is dead for God. Logos and Holy Spirit left him. Hi is corp. It is natural. Holy not wish to be touched by filth. Clean only stay in touch with clean.



man you in deception.....


















Have you more fathers to cite than just Clement of Alexandria? Before you accuse someone of being deceived, you first have to set the case for what is truth. So far the only case I've seen you make is statement and restatement of your own dogmatic opinions. Unless you're God, your own opinions don't count as truth per se.



1. First Man posted St. John text with wrong interpretation, then St. Clement… it is not enough for you? It was not my quotations, I just point on wrong interpretations and speculation.

2. It is not “dogmatic”. Sorry for you if you mix “dogmatic” with “anthropological” and “ascetical” matters…..

3. If you do not familiar with fundamental basic of orthodox moral and anthropology and resist it think seven times before present yourself as orthodox.

5.   man admit that he disagree about presented text are presenting correct meaning. So , he admit that he use text in deferent manner.
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« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2010, 07:33:41 PM »

1. First Man posted St. John text with wrong interpretation,

If it was wrong then why didn't you demonstrate that, rather than trying to argue that a monk couldn't really understand things like sex?

Quote
5.   man admit that he disagree about presented text are presenting correct meaning. So , he admit that he use text in deferent manner.

What are you going on about?
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« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2010, 08:05:40 PM »

Christ enjoyed what he ate and drank when he was on earth. Was Christ "lusting"? The wedding wine in Cana anyone?

And now you speak for Jesus?

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink". (Jesus Christ)

Sound like enjoy for you?




Quote
Maria: “they have no wine”
Jesus: “it is not our concern”

Do not mix God tolerance to our sin and defects with encouragement to lust. 
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« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2010, 08:17:55 PM »


If it was wrong then why didn't you demonstrate that, rather than trying to argue that a monk couldn't really understand things like sex?

Quote
5.   man admit that he disagree about presented text are presenting correct meaning. So , he admit that he use text in deferent manner.

What are you going on about?

I did.

Your presentation of St. John text:
Quote
And how become they one flesh?
As if you should take away the purest part of gold, and mingle it with other gold; so in truth here also the woman as it were receiving the richest part fused by pleasure, nourishes it and cherishes it, and withal contributing her own share, restores it back a Man


My presentation:
What way one flesh occur?
Same way if you obtain most pure gold and mix it with other gold. So here we have some thing simular….. wife receive “melted like” fruit substance in hit pleasure moment, than feed it and keep it warm, give to it all needed and produce (new) man.  And baby serve as some sort of bridge , so it is three combining in one flesh, for child connecting one side with other.




Only St. John refer to sex as “hit pleasure moment” – it all what he say.
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« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2010, 10:00:45 PM »

Then build a case from the Church Fathers and the Scripture, showing that the Church really teaches things like: "Any flesh pressure is lust" and "Any pleasure form things which not belong to Heavenly Kingdom and it desire such pleasure called lust" and "Lust is any form of flesh pleasure desire"?

I cant help your ignorance.

"For he who sins, in the degree in which he sins, becomes worse and is of less estimation than before; and he who has been overcome by base pleasures, has now licentiousness wholly attached to him. Wherefore he who commits fornication is wholly dead to God, and is abandoned by the Word as a dead body by the spirit. For what is holy, as is right, abhors to be polluted. But it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure." - St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10

Lust is wrong, fornication is wrong, but attraction and desire are not: "it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure". And another relevant passage:
St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10:

Some people consider own sins as pleasure granted by nature……
…… But in siner, whom constantly get exited by emotional desire, constantly live defect of  intemperance. For any one with luck of self control is dead for God. Logos and Holy Spirit left him. Hi is corp. It is natural. Holy not wish to be touched by filth. Clean only stay in touch with clean.



man you in deception.....


















Have you more fathers to cite than just Clement of Alexandria? Before you accuse someone of being deceived, you first have to set the case for what is truth. So far the only case I've seen you make is statement and restatement of your own dogmatic opinions. Unless you're God, your own opinions don't count as truth per se.



1. First Man posted St. John text with wrong interpretation, then St. Clement… it is not enough for you? It was not my quotations, I just point on wrong interpretations and speculation.

2. It is not “dogmatic”. Sorry for you if you mix “dogmatic” with “anthropological” and “ascetical” matters…..

3. If you do not familiar with fundamental basic of orthodox moral and anthropology and resist it think seven times before present yourself as orthodox.

5.   man admit that he disagree about presented text are presenting correct meaning. So , he admit that he use text in deferent manner.

It seems to me, though, that you're trying to argue from your own authority without having first established your authority by citing outside sources we deem authoritative (e.g., the Holy Fathers). What gives you the authority to judge the Orthodoxy of others when you haven't even demonstrated to us your own Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2010, 10:17:03 PM »

Sex in marriage is not generally a form of lust.  Goodness gracious, people.  It can be used to diminish lust in one's life, it can be detrimental if it is too self-centered; but if the people's hearts are in the right place, I believe that lust has nothing to do with it.

Father George - I agree 100%. Well said.

My golly Heorhij, I agree, too.  If we both agree, it must be the truth  laugh

Hear, hear.  laugh
Well it's three, so we can claim infallibility. Tongue
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« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2010, 11:05:17 PM »

My golly Heorhij, I agree, too.  If we both agree, it must be the truth  laugh
Hear, hear.  laugh
Well it's three, so we can claim infallibility. Tongue
Caiaphas, Irod and Pilat…
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« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2010, 11:16:35 PM »

And do not forget to call anathema on:
 every one who teach about chemical attraction developed due sexual intercourse as is not theoses or goodness but low form of flesh lust tolerated in earthly life.
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« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2010, 11:25:28 PM »

Christ enjoyed what he ate and drank when he was on earth. Was Christ "lusting"? The wedding wine in Cana anyone?

And now you speak for Jesus?

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink". (Jesus Christ)

Sound like enjoy for you?




Quote
Maria: “they have no wine”
Jesus: “it is not our concern”

Do not mix God tolerance to our sin and defects with encouragement to lust. 


You are really reaching to get that interpretation. Not worrying about clothing/food does not mean that you aren't allowed to enjoy them.

By chance are you married Alive?
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« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2010, 11:33:15 PM »

Christ enjoyed what he ate and drank when he was on earth. Was Christ "lusting"? The wedding wine in Cana anyone?

And now you speak for Jesus?

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink". (Jesus Christ)

Sound like enjoy for you?




Quote
Maria: “they have no wine”
Jesus: “it is not our concern”

Do not mix God tolerance to our sin and defects with encouragement to lust. 


You are really reaching to get that interpretation. Not worrying about clothing/food does not mean that you aren't allowed to enjoy them.

By chance are you married Alive?

I wonder this, too. 

To your point Alive, even Monastics plan out their meals and celebrations.  They "worry" about what they eat and drink, and like married couples, they are undergoing martyrdom for the sake of the Gospel.
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« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2010, 03:34:46 AM »

Christ enjoyed what he ate and drank when he was on earth. Was Christ "lusting"? The wedding wine in Cana anyone?

And now you speak for Jesus?

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink". (Jesus Christ)

Sound like enjoy for you?




Quote
Maria: “they have no wine”
Jesus: “it is not our concern”

Do not mix God tolerance to our sin and defects with encouragement to lust. 


You are really reaching to get that interpretation. Not worrying about clothing/food does not mean that you aren't allowed to enjoy them.

By chance are you married Alive?

I wonder this, too. 

To your point Alive, even Monastics plan out their meals and celebrations.  They "worry" about what they eat and drink, and like married couples, they are undergoing martyrdom for the sake of the Gospel.


I do not differentiate monastic from no monastic life more then luck of sexual relation in first one.


 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman with desire has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Second option - look on women without sexual desire.

Same with food.
You may eat with pleasure(voluptuousness) or just eat it.

But if in first case you may run from contacts with female – what desert father did, but you can’t run for eating necessity.


I not sure about sex with no pleasure would work for man…..
So sex deliver pleasure for male other wise it would not work. So sex is voluptuousness any way.
As it is sensuality pleasure – it is voluptuousness any way less or more depending how strongly we attract to it.




About monastic life. Same as no monastic.
Opposition to lust( any kind) – is personal struggle.
For some one it is every day battle, for other time to time… it is personal.
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« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2010, 05:42:32 AM »

What is you native language? Your thoughts above aren't very clear. It seems like you are saying that sex without pleasure is the goal. I am very sorry for anyone one that believes that they can't enjoy marital sex. Sex is unitive AND procreative, it is not meant for procreation alone. Sex without pleasure is not unifying. And for a woman, sex without pleasure isn't very fun at all. To be quite honest sex without any pleasure for a woman can be downright painful. Men automatically have a "release" when they have sex, women do not. To think that sex without pleasure is the goal is extremely unfair to women. From my point of view a man that doesn't seek to give his wife pleasure in marital relations is in sin since only the desires of the husband are met, and not the wife's desires.

(Mods and Admin; I hope I am not being to explicit here, I just wanted to make sure I understood Alive's perspective)
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« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2010, 06:08:22 AM »

It seems like you are saying that sex without pleasure is the goal.

I never say not point it.
I say opposite, naturally male can’t have with out pleasure. It is basic of physiology.
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« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2010, 06:17:15 AM »

sex without pleasure isn't very fun at all.
You so “American like” , you do not need God, you need “fun” and “pleasure”.

Sex in marriage is form of lust (pleasure tool) which is could be well managed and controlled with minimum harm.

Sound like you have problem with it?
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« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2010, 08:15:21 AM »

sex without pleasure isn't very fun at all.
You so “American like” , you do not need God, you need “fun” and “pleasure”.

Sex in marriage is form of lust (pleasure tool) which is could be well managed and controlled with minimum harm.

Sound like you have problem with it?


Lust is addiction to pleasure, not pleasure itself, Alive.

It's true that even inside marriage one can become addicted to sex, even with his/her own spouse. It's possible that one puts pleasure above the person. Much of emphasys on pleasure in sex today lead to that. Like all corporal pleasures, there is a real danger of gettin addicted to it, even in the correct context.

But do you remember the warning about not allowing a man who made himself an eunuch to become a priest? It's in the Gospel. Chastity is *not* self-castration, be it physical or psychological. Self-castration, even of the psychological sort, is a sin in itself. We are to be delivered of the dependece on sexual pleasure, and not to become obsessed with avoiding it, which is but another passion, another compulsion.
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« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2010, 08:57:32 AM »

sex without pleasure isn't very fun at all.
You so “American like” , you do not need God, you need “fun” and “pleasure”.

Sex in marriage is form of lust (pleasure tool) which is could be well managed and controlled with minimum harm.

Sound like you have problem with it?


Lust is addiction to pleasure, not pleasure itself, Alive.

It's true that even inside marriage one can become addicted to sex, even with his/her own spouse. It's possible that one puts pleasure above the person. Much of emphasys on pleasure in sex today lead to that. Like all corporal pleasures, there is a real danger of gettin addicted to it, even in the correct context.

But do you remember the warning about not allowing a man who made himself an eunuch to become a priest? It's in the Gospel. Chastity is *not* self-castration, be it physical or psychological. Self-castration, even of the psychological sort, is a sin in itself. We are to be delivered of the dependece on sexual pleasure, and not to become obsessed with avoiding it, which is but another passion, another compulsion.
psychological self-castration ....
Sound like some one try to justify own voluptuousness.

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« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2010, 09:08:00 AM »

psychological self-castration ....
Sound like some one try to justify own voluptuousness.

All pleasure is bad. Sounds someone can't have a piece of pudding without devouring the whole buffet.

You should worry more about the pleasure you feel in correcting everybody than about what people feel when being intimate with their spouses.
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« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2010, 09:21:31 AM »


Lust is addiction to pleasure, not pleasure itself, Alive.


 Lust is willing of pleasure and following enjoyment of it.
Addiction to pleasure and lust next level of illness.



But we talking about “sexual act” as sours of physiological endorphines splash.
And what way it effect religion, - connection with God.
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« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2010, 09:30:01 AM »

psychological self-castration ....
Sound like some one try to justify own voluptuousness.

All pleasure is bad. Sounds someone can't have a piece of pudding without devouring the whole buffet.

You should worry more about the pleasure you feel in correcting everybody than about what people feel when being intimate with their spouses.


I write to make sure if I am wrong some one would presented to me, for I not trust to my self.
For me is important to know what is right and what is wrong.

And thank you for remained me about look inside yourself more then correct other.

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« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2010, 09:45:44 AM »

Quote
A victim of sensuality who had overcome his weakness told me once that within people of this kind there flourishes a yearning for bodies, a shameless, and terrible spirit that asserts itself at the very heart’s core.  Sheer physical pain burns so fiercely in the heart that it is like being scorched by an open fire.  The sufferer finds that because of this he has no fear of God, he spurns the thought of punishment, turns away from prayer, and the sight of a corpse moves him no more that if it were a stone.  He is like someone out of his mind, in a daze and he is perpetually drunk with desire for man or beast.  And if a limit were not placed on the activities of this demon, no one would be saved, no one who is made of clay mingled with blood and foul moisture.

St. John Climacus and description of lust
 

http://orthodoxcounselor.com/healing_from_lust.htm

This, Alive, is what lust is. It's not merely feeling the natural pleasure that comes with the sexual act. St. John Climacus clearly describes it in a way that we, modernly, would addiction or compulsion.

I'll give an analogy. We all like to go outside on a sunny day and feel the warmth on our skin. It's a very pleasurable thing and healthy too. Some people, though, will go to great efforts to get a tan, out of pure vanity, and putting in risk their own skin's health. Some will go even deeper and will actually *worship* the sun.

The first feeling of pleasure is natural and in a sense, it's a gift of God. The latter two are not. Likewise with sexual pleasure. The pleasure a married couple feels while having sex is natural. In fact, to prevent from feeling it, one would have to become rather obsessed with sex, just like some people's obsession with food manifests not as eating to much, but as dieting too much. It *is* true that, like the obsessive tanner, a person may become addicted to sex even with his/her spouse. It's true too that, nowadays, excess of sex is much more common than the lack of it. As the movie "Fireproof" shows, not few wives have to "compete" with pornography for the hearts of their husbands.

But it's not a sin to enjoy a sunny day. God has made marriage the proper place for intercourse, with all that is involved in it. Including its pleasures. The Song of Songs even raise the natural pleasures of man-woman spousal relations to a fitting icon of the union of God and the Church.
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« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2010, 10:21:09 AM »

What is you native language? Your thoughts above aren't very clear. It seems like you are saying that sex without pleasure is the goal. I am very sorry for anyone one that believes that they can't enjoy marital sex. Sex is unitive AND procreative, it is not meant for procreation alone. Sex without pleasure is not unifying. And for a woman, sex without pleasure isn't very fun at all. To be quite honest sex without any pleasure for a woman can be downright painful. Men automatically have a "release" when they have sex, women do not. To think that sex without pleasure is the goal is extremely unfair to women. From my point of view a man that doesn't seek to give his wife pleasure in marital relations is in sin since only the desires of the husband are met, and not the wife's desires.

(Mods and Admin; I hope I am not being to explicit here, I just wanted to make sure I understood Alive's perspective)

Well put. Smiley 
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« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2010, 11:14:49 AM »

I do not differentiate monastic from no monastic life more then luck of sexual relation in first one.

So you are wrong. The most basic thing in monasticism is humility shown in an ultimate obedience to the Abbot. Fasting is just an addition.
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« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2010, 03:33:41 PM »

sex without pleasure isn't very fun at all.
You so “American like” , you do not need God, you need “fun” and “pleasure”.

Sex in marriage is form of lust (pleasure tool) which is could be well managed and controlled with minimum harm.

Sound like you have problem with it?


Biologically for a woman sex without pleasure is PAINFUL unless you use a great deal of artificial lubrication PERIOD. If God didn't want sex to be enjoyable for anyone He wouldn't have made a woman in such a way that she must be aroused to make sex healthy and comfortable. If you are a man and don't try to arouse a woman at all before initiating sex you are being selfish, and that is a sin. It has nothing to do with being "American like" it is basic knowledge of sexual functions.  

Friction without lubrication=pain
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« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2010, 08:01:12 PM »

Quote
A victim of sensuality who had overcome his weakness told me once that within people of this kind there flourishes a yearning for bodies, a shameless, and terrible spirit that asserts itself at the very heart’s core.  Sheer physical pain burns so fiercely in the heart that it is like being scorched by an open fire.  The sufferer finds that because of this he has no fear of God, he spurns the thought of punishment, turns away from prayer, and the sight of a corpse moves him no more that if it were a stone.  He is like someone out of his mind, in a daze and he is perpetually drunk with desire for man or beast.  And if a limit were not placed on the activities of this demon, no one would be saved, no one who is made of clay mingled with blood and foul moisture.

St. John Climacus and description of lust
 

http://orthodoxcounselor.com/healing_from_lust.htm

This, Alive, is what lust is. It's not merely feeling the natural pleasure that comes with the sexual act. St. John Climacus clearly describes it in a way that we, modernly, would addiction or compulsion.

I'll give an analogy. We all like to go outside on a sunny day and feel the warmth on our skin. It's a very pleasurable thing and healthy too. Some people, though, will go to great efforts to get a tan, out of pure vanity, and putting in risk their own skin's health. Some will go even deeper and will actually *worship* the sun.

The first feeling of pleasure is natural and in a sense, it's a gift of God. The latter two are not. Likewise with sexual pleasure. The pleasure a married couple feels while having sex is natural. In fact, to prevent from feeling it, one would have to become rather obsessed with sex, just like some people's obsession with food manifests not as eating to much, but as dieting too much. It *is* true that, like the obsessive tanner, a person may become addicted to sex even with his/her spouse. It's true too that, nowadays, excess of sex is much more common than the lack of it. As the movie "Fireproof" shows, not few wives have to "compete" with pornography for the hearts of their husbands.

But it's not a sin to enjoy a sunny day. God has made marriage the proper place for intercourse, with all that is involved in it. Including its pleasures. The Song of Songs even raise the natural pleasures of man-woman spousal relations to a fitting icon of the union of God and the Church.


bla, bla, bla, bla, bla......….. so, yet you never define lust still, romans......







.....….and song of song is not about male and female any way.
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« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2010, 08:07:28 PM »

I do not differentiate monastic from no monastic life more then luck of sexual relation in first one.

So you are wrong. The most basic thing in monasticism is humility shown in an ultimate obedience to the Abbot. Fasting is just an addition.

If darkness in you, you call light, can imaging what is your darkness then….


And your point is for married couple do not need humility and  obedience….. are you Christian at all? Do you ever reed gospel and holy fathers to get familia with orthodoxy?
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« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2010, 08:19:09 PM »

I do not differentiate monastic from no monastic life more then luck of sexual relation in first one.

So you are wrong. The most basic thing in monasticism is humility shown in an ultimate obedience to the Abbot. Fasting is just an addition.

If darkness in you, you call light, can imaging what is your darkness then….


And your point is for married couple do not need humility and  obedience….. are you Christian at all? Do you ever reed gospel and holy fathers to get familia with orthodoxy?
Do you have any patristic teaching with which you can refute Michał Kalina? (Heck, I wonder if you're even reading him correctly.)
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« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2010, 08:22:01 PM »

sex without pleasure isn't very fun at all.
You so “American like” , you do not need God, you need “fun” and “pleasure”.

Sex in marriage is form of lust (pleasure tool) which is could be well managed and controlled with minimum harm.

Sound like you have problem with it?


Biologically for a woman sex without pleasure is PAINFUL unless you use a great deal of artificial lubrication PERIOD. If God didn't want sex to be enjoyable for anyone He wouldn't have made a woman in such a way that she must be aroused to make sex healthy and comfortable. If you are a man and don't try to arouse a woman at all before initiating sex you are being selfish, and that is a sin. It has nothing to do with being "American like" it is basic knowledge of sexual functions.  

Friction without lubrication=pain

Can you be clear what your message about?



1. I did refer to word “fun” as meaningless and deceptive.
It is commonly used to justify own lust.

2. no sex hygienic issue was raise yet for you to preach about.

We discuss sex as form of lust here.
And married sex as lust which can be well controlled and not deadly if it managed in smart way.
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« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2010, 08:25:40 PM »

I do not differentiate monastic from no monastic life more then luck of sexual relation in first one.

So you are wrong. The most basic thing in monasticism is humility shown in an ultimate obedience to the Abbot. Fasting is just an addition.

If darkness in you, you call light, can imaging what is your darkness then….


And your point is for married couple do not need humility and  obedience….. are you Christian at all? Do you ever reed gospel and holy fathers to get familia with orthodoxy?
Do you have any patristic teaching with which you can refute Michał Kalina? (Heck, I wonder if you're even reading him correctly.)

refute what?


Can you make precise question what I need to present you?
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« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2010, 08:29:53 PM »

I think we have a language barrier here. In the context of what I wrote "not so fun" means unpleasant, or essentially the OPPOSITE of fun. The Orthodox church doesn't have a distinction between venial and mortal sins, so what point are you trying to make? Sin is sin, no matter how "small" or "large" we try to label it. To say that desire in the context of marriage is lust, and therefore a sin, means that it is sin and must be avoided.
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« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2010, 08:32:59 PM »

Proverbs 5 is clearly speaking about enjoying your wife sexually. In fact the passage speaks about how enjoying your wife can prevent you from lusting after another woman.
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« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2010, 08:43:29 PM »

I think we have a language barrier here.

It is what people say to deceive other.

Of course we speak deferent language. Your one with “fun” is belong to justify lust and pleasure.
It is what we talking about.

Modern society develop deceiving terminology to justify lust etc, and walk you to antichrist.

You speak they language and perceive world way them perceive it, you all ready choose they religion.
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