Author Topic: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer  (Read 1568 times)

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Online Justin Kissel

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Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« on: July 19, 2010, 10:04:50 AM »
Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer

The Romanian Orthodox Church said Friday as thousands mourned the death of a popular singer that it would not give her a full burial service because she committed suicide.

A single priest will perform a simple service for Madalina Manole in a church courtyard, the church said, because it considers suicide "a grave sin."

Some Romanians, including singer Tavi Colen, publicly urged the church to reconsider, saying Manole was a believer who suffered from depression, which should be treated as an illness.

It would break church law to give the singer a full service without written medical evidence that she was clinically depressed, church spokesman Constantin Stoica said...
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Offline Rosehip

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 10:39:16 AM »
Very sad indeed. How difficult for her husband and the young son she leaves behind, barely one year old. I wonder if she had suffered from post-partum depression as well? She looks troubled, depressed in her pictures. The church should have more compassion in such cases. May Tavi's memory be eternal!
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 10:52:35 AM »
It was common practice to  bury suicides in a nook of the cemetery, somewhere by the fence with only the singing of "Holy God".

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 10:55:16 AM »
"The church should have more compassion in such cases."

I agree. I think it is sufficient that her family explain that she suffered from depression. Their is no need for a Dr.'s note.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2010, 11:03:53 AM »
Why do people do things that go against Church teachings but want the honours and praises of the Church? It's like fleeing from battle and want to get an honour medal.

The Church is not being unmerciful. She *is* going to have a burial service, just not the same the non-suicidal get. Even if she had depression, what about those who also have it and *don't* commit suicide? It is sad. It is not a condemnation. It is simply the due absence of praises to merits not present.
There is no such a thing as holly bullies.

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 11:07:55 AM »
an Orthodox Christian has fallen asleep in the Lord.  period.    she should have a full funeral service.  this is sad :( :'(

memory eternal to her!

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, 11:12:39 AM »
Memory Eternal!

Offline augustin717

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2010, 11:14:14 AM »
an Orthodox Christian has fallen asleep in the Lord.  period.    she should have a full funeral service.  this is sad :( :'(

memory eternal to her!
Says who?
Not giving the suicides a full burial is a very old tradition of the Church. Things used to be even rougher, now they are quite mild.

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2010, 11:15:31 AM »
an Orthodox Christian has fallen asleep in the Lord.  period.    she should have a full funeral service.  this is sad :( :'(

memory eternal to her!
Says who?
Not giving the suicides a full burial is a very old tradition of the Church. Things used to be even rougher, now they are quite mild.

I didn't know that.  may I ask why? ???

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2010, 11:20:39 AM »
She suffered from a real illness that overtook her. She was a victim. I know if I was her family I would not be able to be part of a Church that doesn't recognize real medical conditions.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2010, 11:29:43 AM »
She suffered from a real illness that overtook her. She was a victim. I know if I was her family I would not be able to be part of a Church that doesn't recognize real medical conditions.
You can only make suppositions. You were not her doctor.
From what it seems she carefully prepared her exit without much thought of God.
BTW, I've seen a few real cases, back home, of schizophrenic people that killed themselves. Now, these were granted regular burials, since in their case their judgement was much more impaired than an allegedly depressed person's judgement would be.
May God forgive her, as we use to say.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 11:30:37 AM by augustin717 »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2010, 11:40:11 AM »
"The church should have more compassion in such cases."

I agree. I think it is sufficient that her family explain that she suffered from depression. Their is no need for a Dr.'s note.
Unfortunately, no, there is a need, just as their is a need to investigate if it was a suicide. Unless someone is in the family with an M.D., they shouldn't be making diagnosis. Otherwise, why don't we canonize Dr. Kevorkian? HBO is airing his hagiography.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 11:42:03 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2010, 11:48:12 AM »
A lack of a full funeral highlights the gravity of this situation and should move people to pray and give alms on behalf of her soul. Also, lack of honoring her at a funeral gives God an excuse to show mercy, to put it in a certain way. I have a friend who was depressed and committed suicide. He was given a funeral, but I still try to remember him in proportion to the gravity of the situation. We do not see just how difficult things are for these poor souls in the next world.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2010, 11:50:34 AM »
Just a few thoughts:

1) I would submit that every suicide is a result of 'depression.'  You don't want to kill yourself because you feel good.

2) 'Clinical depression' is a diagnosed and treated condition, whereas general 'depression' is not handled in this way.

3) Only those with schizophrenia and severe mental illness lose control of themselves to the point that they have no choice when their disease drives them to this act.  The rest do.

4) Being depressed, even severely so, does not make one lose control of one's judgment.  It can provide a powerful temptation, but most depressed people do not kill themselves.  Therefore, she made a bad choice and is now paying the consequences. 

5) Yes, she did not get a funeral, but we also do not pass judgment on her soul.  We simply pray for her.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2010, 11:59:44 AM »
We will have to agree to disagree. I am not saying that suicide is a good thing or an acceptable thing. I am just saying that those that do it are doing so as the result of an illness. I will leave the judging to God. Personally I think having a M.D. explain that she had suffered from depression etc. would be ridiculous unless the priest was a qualified physician himself. I would take the family at their word.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2010, 12:50:16 PM »
We will have to agree to disagree. I am not saying that suicide is a good thing or an acceptable thing. I am just saying that those that do it are doing so as the result of an illness. I will leave the judging to God. Personally I think having a M.D. explain that she had suffered from depression etc. would be ridiculous unless the priest was a qualified physician himself. I would take the family at their word.
I know several families who would lie ever more for a funeral than they would for a baptism or a wedding. You do not need to be a doctor to accept a medical diagnosis, just to dispute it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 01:00:23 PM »
You know, I think that the "celebrity" factor may be working here. Celebrities work is to gather people's sympathy at least. Thus, even in life, they are allowed much more "tolerance" than the average person. Had it been Joe Doe killing himself, or if it was someone from a group we learned to despise, it would be ok.

As I said, she *is* getting a burial, she *is* being prayed for and noone is passing judgment on her soul. But she *has* committed a sin whose particularity is to prevent a normal burial service. This is a true and old tradition of the Church that serves, at the very least, to show people that short of a serious degenerative disease destroying the brain committing suicide is one of the gravest sins.
There is no such a thing as holly bullies.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2010, 01:53:01 PM »
Lord have Mercy.

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2010, 02:32:40 PM »
an Orthodox Christian has fallen asleep in the Lord.  period.    she should have a full funeral service.  this is sad :( :'(

memory eternal to her!
Says who?
Not giving the suicides a full burial is a very old tradition of the Church. Things used to be even rougher, now they are quite mild.

I didn't know that.  may I ask why? ???
One thing I think we need to consider is that by definition, suicide can be seen as the murder of one's self.  If murder is such a grave sin, how much more grave is it that the murderer's victim was herself?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline stashko

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2010, 02:52:25 PM »
Parents had two un-baptised babies buried in the Serbian Orthodox Church Cemetary ,there was no funeral for them or grave markers...Thats Just how It Is ...At least the singer Is Getting Some Kind Of Funeral Service even a toned down one.....
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 02:53:38 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2010, 08:37:15 PM »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2010, 09:32:49 PM »
Parents had two un-baptised babies buried in the Serbian Orthodox Church Cemetary ,there was no funeral for them or grave markers...Thats Just how It Is ...At least the singer Is Getting Some Kind Of Funeral Service even a toned down one.....
]

Fortunately, Orthodox church doesnt have absolute juridical approach like Catholicism, I think. There was case of a saint who killed self and baby to avoid capture and likely slavery/torture/bad death by Mongols. If I was going to be killed in slow very bad way maybe I would kill myself fast way with knife. It is hard to say about all situations.

They say all things are possible with God. I hope this is true.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 09:34:50 PM by rakovsky »

Offline mike

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2010, 01:50:41 AM »
Fortunately, Orthodox church doesnt have absolute juridical approach like Catholicism, I think. There was case of a saint who killed self and baby to avoid capture and likely slavery/torture/bad death by Mongols.

Who?

Offline rakovsky

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« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 02:44:36 AM by rakovsky »

Offline mike

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2010, 02:58:58 AM »
This site provides a different version of her life (according to it, she was killed by the son of her former husband to his second wife).

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2010, 03:24:53 AM »
Mike, you got Saint Evpraksia of Ryazan confused with saint Evpraksia of Pskov.

Unfortunately, this is not the only case of martyr suicide:

Quote
- мученицы Пелагия и Софрония - бросились в реку. св. Иоанн Златоуст о первой даже написал две "Похвальных беседы".
- мученицы Домнина, Вероника и Просдокия - бросились в реку. О них (не называя имён) пишет Евсевий Памфил в "Церковной истории" (8.12.3-4).
- мученица Дросида, дочь императора Траяна - бросилась в огонь.

There is more full discussion of this on Kuraev forum:
http://kuraev.ru/index.php?option=com_smf&topic=78328.0

Basically, no one has ability to make opinion on anything until they perform full check of Great-Russian sources. (small joke)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 03:44:47 AM by rakovsky »

Offline recent convert

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 07:39:05 AM »
The church  mourns and prays for this poor woman's soul because of this tragic death & will continue to do so long past the popular mourning has toned down. We cannot let whims affect tradition but to adhere to it & be careful when discerning a need to question. Lord, have mercy and may her memory be eternal.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 07:39:59 AM by recent convert »
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Offline Punch

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2010, 06:17:25 PM »
I believe that SCOBA got it right.

http://www.scoba.us/articles/2007-05-25-letter-on-suicide.html



Sure.  An organization known for its strong stance regarding Tradition [/sarcasm]
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Punch

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2010, 06:22:50 PM »
The church  mourns and prays for this poor woman's soul because of this tragic death & will continue to do so long past the popular mourning has toned down. We cannot let whims affect tradition but to adhere to it & be careful when discerning a need to question. Lord, have mercy and may her memory be eternal.

I think you have the right idea.  We should certainly mourn, and we should certainly pray for her soul.  The Church even has an Akathist for the dead that covers those who have committed suicide.  The funeral service is a service of assurance that the person died within the Church and will receive the Lord's Mercy.  We cannot be so sure of a suicide since the sin cannot be confessed and repented.  However, we do not judge because we do not know what is in the person's heart.  It is totally appropriate that the Church, as an organization, follows the Tradition of not performing the full funeral.  However, it is also totally appropriate that this person be remembered in our prayers, as would any other sinner, and as, hopefully, we will one day be remembered ourselves.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline mike

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Re: Church: No full burial service for Romanian singer
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2010, 12:36:19 PM »
Thanks for clarification, rakovsky.