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Author Topic: Archimandrite Robert Taft on Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate  (Read 14055 times) Average Rating: 0
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Deacon Lance
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« Reply #90 on: February 18, 2004, 12:37:57 PM »

Orthodoc,

The fact remains the report supports Archimandrite Robert's claims and refutes yours.  It looks like the Eastern Ukraine may not be all that Orthodox after all.

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« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2004, 12:54:07 PM »

Orthodoc,

The fact remains the report supports Archimandrite Robert's claims and refutes yours.  It looks like the Eastern Ukraine may not be all that Orthodox after all.

Fr. Deacon Lance


What? 25 to 29 million Orthodox disappeared? What are they, Republicans in Dade Cty, FL?

5 million UC -10% general population- in the 'west' (undefined longitudinally) constitute a majority of believers there, 25 million UOC concentrated in the central and east are a majority of believers there. Either the 'west' is sparsely populated (not likely) or all non-believers live in the central/east (no data to prove that at all) or the non-believers are interspersed evenly (also- no data, but reasonable). In either case, I don't see "empty churches" coming from this.
Deacon Lance, you might have a 'day job', please tell me it's not tax preparation Smiley

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« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2004, 01:14:20 PM »

Demetri,

Yes, I do have a day job, I am a welfare caseworker, so you can rest easy:)

My point in this is: Orthodoc claims Archimandrite Robert and others who have been to Ukraine are liars when they say Eastern Ukraine churches are largely unattended.  I am not a statistical expert but the report supports that claim showing a large percentage of people claim they are atheists and that the believers are concentrated in Western Ukraine, which could be geographical defined as starting at Kyiv (although in the center) and extending to the Western border I believe.  Why that particular anomaly exists I don't know.

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« Reply #93 on: February 18, 2004, 02:24:31 PM »

Father Deacon Lance writes:

[It looks like the Eastern Ukraine may not be all that Orthodox after all.]

It also looks like the vast majority of believers and church goers in western Ukraine are not UGC's as you claim.  But either Orthodox or Orthodox combined with other Christians if you are to believe the statistics you referenced..

As I stated, if you are to believe the number of people who identify themselves as UGC's is between 4.5 to 5 million as claimed,  and compare it with the number of people who  identify themselves as  belivers in these same statistics, then it would mean 1/3 to 1/2 half of those who classify themselves as UGC's also classify themselves as athiests or unbelievers!  I find it amazing that you are only willing to apply the the 40% athiests to the Orthodox.  That's not what the statistics say or even imply.

You go to such extremes to try and justify and validate the planned proseltyzing of the Orthodox by the Unia throughout Ukraine.  Do you honestly think that we Orthodox are as   dumb and naive as to have not that figured out what's up?

I've analyzed statistics from two different sources and the facts stated in both allude that the majority of BELIEVERS in Ukraine are, indeed, Orthodox.

If you can't accept that, than you can continue to live in your own little world which apparently refuses to use basic logic  to anlayze what is presented to you with what an American Jesuit Russian Catholic priest from the Vatican with an agenda puts out or says.

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« Reply #94 on: February 18, 2004, 02:40:26 PM »

Orthodoc,

"I find it amazing that you are only willing to apply the the 40% athiests to the Orthodox."  

Be amazed.  Why should it be surprising that the Church that collaborated with the Communists lost members to the state atheism propogated by the Communists?

And I don't need to justify anything.  Even if the situation were not what it is, the UGCC would have the right to proclaim the Gospel.  What amazes me is that peopel like you feel religious freedom is okay for you and not for others.

And you have yet to apologize for calling Archimandrite Robert a liar, when the facts support his claim.

Fr. Deacon Lance

 
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« Reply #95 on: February 18, 2004, 02:51:03 PM »

[And you have yet to apologize for calling Archimandrite Robert a liar, when the facts support his claim.]

WHERE do the facts support his claim?  Seems like you are the only one that  is  naive enough  to believe that Father Deacon!

Do you perhaps have a problem with reading comprehension are or you so blinded by the propaganda you read regarding the UGCC that you are either unwilling or unable to use simple logic to analyze it?  I owe no one an apology.  Especially Father Taft!

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« Reply #96 on: February 18, 2004, 02:52:47 PM »

Please pardon my interrupting you both, but are you, Deacon Lance, still maintaining that the western "part" is comprised of only 5 million UCs and that the eastern "part" is comprised of 45 million (25 million Orthodox and 20 million atheists plus "others")?

I am aware that I possess slightly less than Mensa-class abilities, but I am still having trouble following this "logic"  Shocked

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« Reply #97 on: February 18, 2004, 03:25:37 PM »

Demetri

I maintain the West is where the majority of UGCs and Orthodox are.  In the East there are Orthodox, a few UGC, and apparently a lot of atheists.  

As for regional stastistics, Zakarpatska, Ternopil, Ivano-Franskiv are the only regions that are majority UGC and Lviv is about an even split.

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« Reply #98 on: February 18, 2004, 03:37:02 PM »

Orthodoc,

"WHERE do the facts support his claim?"

Well, I thought the fact that 40% of the people claiming atheism combined with the fact that the majority of believers are concentrated in the West did.

Fr. Deacon Lance



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« Reply #99 on: February 18, 2004, 05:21:34 PM »

[Well, I thought the fact that 40% of the people claiming atheism combined with the fact that the majority of believers are concentrated in the West did.]

Thought I already showed you that if the UGCC claims 4.5 to 5 million believers, and the statisics state that 10% of the 29,700,000 believers are UGC's, then at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the UGC's claimed are also listed as athiests.  Do the math yoursekf - 29,700.00 X .10%  = 2,970,000  [not 4.5 to 5 million].  

You can't have it both ways.  As someone else has tried to point out to you, what you and the article are claiming is that the vast majority of Ukrainans live in western Ukraine.  What you are also implying is that its OK for someone in western Ukraine to be counted as a believer and an athiest at the same time.  While its not OK in eastern Ukraine.  Do the math already!

State Department or no state department, the figures don't jive.  Besides, the very fact that they seem to have such precise figures for both UGC's and RC's but not Orthodox, clearly shows where the figures came from.  Next time either the RCC or its graphed UGC appendage put out statistics they better sit down and do the math to check that it balances out to validate the claims being made.  Because it sure  doesn't in this case.


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« Reply #100 on: February 18, 2004, 05:49:25 PM »

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Orthodoc:

Thought I already showed you that if the UGCC claims 4.5 to 5 million believers, and the statisics state that 10% of the 29,700,000 believers are UGC's, then at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the UGC's claimed are also listed as athiests.  Do the math yoursekf - 29,700.00 X .10%  = 2,970,000  [not 4.5 to 5 million].  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 10% figure approximated for the UGCC is based on the TOTAL estimated population of Ukraine, which is the "universe" of the statistical data, and NOT on the number of adherents per classification/jurisdiction.

Fr. Deacon Lance is correct.

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« Reply #101 on: February 18, 2004, 06:37:11 PM »

Please refer to the following site:

Ukranian Archivist news web site:

http://www.uanews.tv/archives/religion/risu/risu035.htm


"RIS--Greek Catholics, Latin Catholics and Orthodox in Ukraine:   Who’s who?"


This is an address given by Prof. Oleh Turiy, Acting Director of the Institute of Church History in Lviv, on September 15, 2000 at a conference held in Freising, Germany.
I realize that the data supplied by this link is 3-4 years old.  Nevertheless, Prof. Turiy's address asserts that there are 4.5 to 6 million UGC's in 7 eparchies in Western Ukraine and in 1 exarchate in Eastern Ukraine.  He also cites 200,000 to 800,000 Roman Catholics in 4 dioceses in unspecified locations within the Ukraine and 1 apostolic administrature (in Transcarpathia).  The RC figure is widespread because of highly uncertain data and is not broken down by nationality.  I understand, however, that many of the RC's are Polish in heritage given the history of the region.

He does not cite population figures for the 3 Urkanian Orthodox groups.  But he does make the following statement regarding Catholic-Orthodox conflict:

Quote
However, the statistics show that the great majority of conflicts regarding church buildings are between Greek Catholic and Autocephalous, rather than Moscow Patriarchate communities or between [sic] different Orthodox jurisdictions.


Jim C.

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« Reply #102 on: February 18, 2004, 06:48:58 PM »

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Orthodoc:

Thought I already showed you that if the UGCC claims 4.5 to 5 million believers, and the statisics state that 10% of the 29,700,000 believers are UGC's, then at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the UGC's claimed are also listed as athiests.  Do the math yoursekf - 29,700.00 X .10%  = 2,970,000  [not 4.5 to 5 million].  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 10% figure approximated for the UGCC is based on the TOTAL estimated population of Ukraine, which is the "universe" of the statistical data, and NOT on the number of adherents per classification/jurisdiction.

Fr. Deacon Lance is correct.

AmdG

Matters not whether it's 2.9 or 5 million; the figures still don't jive.

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« Reply #103 on: February 18, 2004, 10:29:21 PM »

[Matters not whether it's 2.9 or 5 million; the figures still don't jive.
Demetri]

Thank you Demetri.  I've about exhausted every avenue I can think of to get this very point across.

What we have here is a person who is trying to prove a false claim.  So he finds some statistical data and tunes in on two  statements within those statistics, ignoring the complete set of statistics.   He then tries to build a story around the two that he thinks proves his point.  Namely 40% of Ukrainians claim to be athiests and the vast majority of believers are in western Ukraine.  

He completely ignores the fact that, out of the 90% of the remaining Christians  after you take out the 10% claiming to be UGC's, the majority are identified as being Orthodox.  Which invalidates his claim that the vast majority of regular church goers are  UGC's whie the remaining Orthodox worship in empty churches.

He ignores the statistics I presented that were taken from a Ukrainian Catholic website because it indicates the Orthodox have at least five times the number of Sunday Schools, seminaries, and  seminarians by claiming the Orthodox are failing in bringing the Gospel to the people.  Wonder where they are all coming from if the Orthodox churches are so empty?

I have a headache from trying to explain it.  In the end, he will only believe what he wants to and ignore any feed back which proves him wrong.

Orthodoc


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« Reply #104 on: February 19, 2004, 10:25:29 AM »

Orthodoc,

"State Department or no state department, the figures don't jive.  Besides, the very fact that they seem to have such precise figures for both UGC's and RC's but not Orthodox, clearly shows where the figures came from."

Now the Catholic Church is collecting data and releasing reports  for the US State Department?

"Which invalidates his claim that the vast majority of regular church goers are  UGC's whie the remaining Orthodox worship in empty churches."

Another false statment.  I said propotionally the UGCC may have the most practicing members.  Obviously the UGCC is smaller than the UOC.

Amadeus has pointed out your calculation error.  What does not jive about the stats, other than you don't like them?  According to the stats Ukraine has 50 million people, 20 million are atheist, 23 million are Orthodox, 5 million are UGC, 1 million are RC, 1 million are other.  The atheists have to be somewhere, what is so far fetched that they are concentrated in the East?  People that have been there have said that both UGCC and Orthodox churches in the West are full and that Orthodox churches int the East are largely empty.  You called Archimandrite Robert a liar for stating the same and he has been there.  

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« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2004, 12:10:14 PM »

Let me act as spokesman for the ignorant.

What is it about the Eastern Ukraine that supposedly makes it predominantly atheist?

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« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2004, 12:37:45 PM »

Jim,

It just seems the Communists were more succesful there, I don't mean to imply that there is something intrinsically wrong with Eastern Ukraine.  Obviously the stats themselves don't prove this, but given the large number of atheists stated I accept the corroboration of Archimandrite Robert and the others who have been there.

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« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2004, 12:45:28 PM »

Quote
What is it about the Eastern Ukraine that supposedly makes it predominantly atheist?

Because it basically has been a part of Russia since the 1600s and because of that, like Russia proper, was part of the USSR for all 74 years of the Soviet Union's existence. So, just like many people in Russia proper, I reckon many of these people are completely secular, born that way.

The small, southwestern, Catholic area that's now part of the Ukraine hadn't been politically part of what's now Russia since the 1300s and had been under the antireligious Soviet government only for about 40-50 years, depending on the region (Galicia since 1939, Ruthenia since the late 1940s). Apparently the USSR's militant-atheism campaign didn't take over there.

So in short the reason seems to be the Communists had a 25-year head start on violently secularizing the eastern part of the country.
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« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2004, 12:51:43 PM »

Thanks, Serge, we needed that!

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« Reply #109 on: February 19, 2004, 02:03:27 PM »

Friends,

I think this thread has been productive but is now pretty much devolving into a tit-for-tat between Orthodoc and Dcn Lance.  I will therefore be closing the thread now that it is 8 pages long, and if the participants have any outstanding issues, perhaps they would like to take it to private messaging.

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