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Author Topic: Archimandrite Robert Taft on Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate  (Read 13606 times) Average Rating: 0
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Deacon Lance
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« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2004, 04:42:46 PM »

Boswell,

Well there are plenty of UGC's in Ukraine!  Why complain about the Catholics but not the Armenians?  At the very least one would think they would be asked to reduce the Constantiople jurisdiction to an archeparchy/eparchy.

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« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2004, 06:02:43 PM »

[Those who are still around from the Communist persecution can, i.e give back stolen property.]

Depends on how one defines 'stolen property'.  At the union of Brest the Orthodox property came under control of the newly created  UGCC  by an act of an agreement signed under duress between the Orthodox and Rome.  In 1946 the UGC property  again came under the control of the Orthodox by an act of an agreement once again signed under duress between the Orthodox and the UGCC.  So, whats the difference except the roles were reversed?  Why is it considered as stolen property in 1946 but not in 1596?  

I do know one thing and that is.... in certain cases a  court ruling is based on a 'precedence' that has already been set.  So, in this case, it seems to me that the precedence was set in 1596 when no one considered the property that changed hands between the Orthodox and the newly created appendage of the  RCC as 'stolen'.  Even though the agreement was signed under the same circumstances as it was in 1946.

Now you see why it is important to read the ENTIRE history, the ENTIRE novel,  to get the complete picture of any situation!  And, as I stated before, a problem or situation can only be resolved when the ENTIRE situation is taken into consideration.
There is no time limit where history is concerned.

Orthodoc


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« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2004, 07:50:53 PM »

[Those who are still around from the Communist persecution can, i.e give back stolen property.]

Depends on how one defines 'stolen property'.  At the union of Brest the Orthodox property came under control of the newly created  UGCC  by an act of an agreement signed under duress between the Orthodox and Rome.  In 1946 the UGC property  again came under the control of the Orthodox by an act of an agreement once again signed under duress between the Orthodox and the UGCC.  So, whats the difference except the roles were reversed?  Why is it considered as stolen property in 1946 but not in 1596?  

I do know one thing and that is.... in certain cases a  court ruling is based on a 'precedence' that has already been set.  So, in this case, it seems to me that the precedence was set in 1596 when no one considered the property that changed hands between the Orthodox and the newly created appendage of the  RCC as 'stolen'.  Even though the agreement was signed under the same circumstances as it was in 1946.

Now you see why it is important to read the ENTIRE history, the ENTIRE novel,  to get the complete picture of any situation!  And, as I stated before, a problem or situation can only be resolved when the ENTIRE situation is taken into consideration.
There is no time limit where history is concerned.

Orthodoc




This is an unbelievable and eggregious statement!  I have been following the direction of this thread and just have to comment.  Are you suggesting that the Churches built and property acquired by Ruthenian and Ukranian EC's after the Unions of Brest-Litovsk and Uzhorod respectively also belong to the Orthodox?  The seizures of Catholic property in 1946 and the liquidation of the EC eparchies were originated in decisions of the local communist-dominated government.  Notwithstanding the historic Orthodox-Catholic animosities arising from the Unia of the late 1500's to mid 1600's, your post has essentially equated these events with communist dominated events of the late 1940's.  I really don't think that you want to do this.

What I find so irritating about your reply is that the alleged agreement made under coercion in 1946 was between apostate Catholic priests subsequently consecrated as Orthodox bishops and suddenly "acting" for the Unia with Orthodox bishops under communist suzerainty and not IMHO acting as true Orthodox prelates.  I use the term "apostate" intentionally.  I don't normally consider a conversion from Catholicism to Orthodoxy or vice versa to be the act of an apostate.  Perhaps you do, at least going from Orthodox to Catholic.  Yet I don't consider the Orthodox side of the house in this utterly contemptuous historical event (i.e., the 1946 agreements) to be truly Orthodox in praxis.  I have read that some Orthodox prelates were NKVD agents.  Those willing parties to this ersatz-agreement that  liquidated the Catholic eparchies were communist stooges and not truly Orthodox IMHO.   These were coerced and forced conversions made under a not so subtle threat of annihilation.  The Catholic priests who refused to go along with this atrocity were in most cases incarcerated with many either dying in jail or murdered before being incarcerated.  Those surviving their prison terms or released early due to poor health were exiled internally from their native land in many cases.   And God only knows what happened to their families.

Your post, perhaps unintentionally, unites the actions of supposed Orthodox prelates claiming to operate in the name of Orthodoxy with the agenda of the Communist-dominated government of the Ukraine.   I personally find this even more objectionable than your obvious bitterness to all things Catholic because the communist depredations and persecution of Orthodoxy are so well known and equally execrable, not to mention Uncle Joe's engineered mass starvation of Ukranians in the 1930's.  If I were Orthodox, I wouldn't want my Church and Faith even remotely identified with the communists who so horribly persecuted it.

I realize that the pastoral situation regarding what Church property belongs to what jurisdiction in Transcarpathia and the Ukraine is very complicated.  And I recognize that there is extreme bitterness on both sides.  Furthermore, I haven't the slightest clue how the issue of Church property will be resolved or if it ever will be resolved.   Will negotiation and accommodation provide a means of handling this?  Or will an improved economy in the region allow for building or rebuilding Churches, schools, rectories, monasteries, etc., both Orthodox or Catholic?  I don't personally forsee any option working except the economic option.

Nevertheless, your post which seemingly adds an aura of Orthodox authority to the "Reverse Unia" of 1946 through its supposed cancellation of the agreements of the 16th and 17th Centuries ought to make most Orthodox faithful cringe in great discomfort because this was a communist inspired, dominated, and executed agreement.

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« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2004, 02:31:39 AM »

[Are you suggesting that the Churches built and property acquired by Ruthenian and Ukranian EC's after the Unions of Brest-Litovsk and Uzhorod respectively also belong to the Orthodox?]

Read what I wrote.  What I said was that those churches that were turned over to the newly created UGCC by a stroke of a pen in 1596 , were originally built as Orthodox  Churches and remained as such, many for centuries,  until they became the property of the UGCC when the union with Rome was signed under very similiar circumstances as those in 1946.   Namely that both transfer of properties were accomplished under government duress and pressure and whose ownership was also transferred through a signed agreement.

Where is that any different than Greek Catholics churches becoming Orthodox through a signed agreement in 1946?

Are you trying to insinuate that after the union was signed the newly created UGCC built new churches for itself and its people?  The Orthodox faith was outlawed and anyone who remained Orthodox (including the clergy)  was considered as a traitor to the state by the Polish King.  Didn't you read what I posted?  Churches changed ownership by the stroke of a pen in both cases (both in 1596 & 1946).  

====
From what I posted previously regarding the creation of the UGCC -

 But the King decided otherwise: his edict of October 15 legalized only those Byzantine-rite Christians who joined the Unia; IT DECREED THE ORTHODOX CHURCH NULL AND VOID AND ALL IT'S CLERGY EXCOMMUNCATED; WHILE CONTINUING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS DECLARED TO BE AN ACT OF TREASON AGAINST THE STATE.
====

[Notwithstanding the historic Orthodox-Catholic animosities arising from the Unia of the late 1500's to mid 1600's, your post has essentially equated these events with communist dominated events of the late 1940's. I really don't think that you want to do this.]

Why not?  What's the difference except in 1596 it was initiated by a Polish Roman Catholic government  and in 1946 the reverse was iniated by a communist dominated government.  Why should WHO or what type of government  initiated it make any difference?  The actions of both were almost parallel.  I find it utterly amazing that you think that because it was done by communists in one instance and not the other, only one can be considered  as wrong.  

[What I find so irritating about your reply is that the alleged agreement made under coercion in 1946 was between apostate Catholic priests subsequently consecrated as Orthodox bishops and suddenly "acting" for the Unia with Orthodox bishops under communist suzerainty and not IMHO acting as true Orthodox prelates.]

And, once again how is that different than what happened in 1596?  The former Orthodox Bishops that signed the union in 1596 were all hand picked and got their positions through the Polish Roman Catholic government.  How does this differ from the what you claim about  what you call the 'apostate Catholic priests' in 1946?

Don't forget it was the government that paid the clergy salaries and provided financial support for the education of the religious institutions.  The first thing the new Polish RC goverment did was to try and undermine the Orthodox Church by witholding funds for the proper maintaince of the religious institutions (*Read article 17 below).  Why do you think they included articles like the following in the 'Union of Brest' which they wanted guarantees on before they would sign the union?

======

Treaty of Brest -1596

10.  That the metropolitanate, the episcopate, and other ecclesiastical
dignities shall be conferred on no one except the Rus' people or Greeks, who must be of our religion.  And since our Canons require that the Metropolitain, the Bishops, and so on, first elected by the clergy, must be worthy people, we ask the King's Grace THAT THE ELECTION BE FREE, LEAVING INTACT THE AUTHORITY OF THE KING'S GRACE TO APPOINT THE ONE WHOM HE PLEASES.  This means that as soon as someone has died we would elect four candidates, AND THE KING'S GRACE WILL FREELY CHOSE WHOM HE WISHES FROM AMONG THE FOUR.   This is necessary, especially so that the persons named to such positions will be worthy and educated, for the King's Grace, who not of the same religion, cannot know who is worthy of this, AND THUS IT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST THAT SUCH UNINSTRUCTED PEOPLE WERE APPOINTED THAT THEY WERE SCARCELY LITERATE.  If the King's Grace should wish to appoint a layman to these spiritual posts, the appointee must receive Holy Orders within no more than three months under pain of losing appointment, according to the Constitution of the Parliament of Grondo and the Articles of King Sigmund Augustus of blessed memory, approved by the present King's Grace, FOR AT THE MOMENT THERE ARE SOME WHO HOLD CERTAIN SPIRITUAL APPOINTMENTS IN THEIR HANDS BUT DO NOT RECEIVE HOLY ORDERS EVEN FOR YEARS, justifying themselves with some sort of royal "exemptions".  We ask that in future this should not be.

[Note:  They were only asking for THE RIGHT to choose three candidates for election which they didn't have under Polish rule.]

12.  So that our authority would be greater and we should govern our
faithful with greater respect, we ask seats in the Senate of the King's Grace for the Metropolitain and the bishops.  We ask this for many reasons for we have the same office and hierarchal dignity as the Roman Bishops.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

17. INASMUCH AS WE HAVE LOST POSSESSION OF MANY ECCLESIASTICAL PROPERTIES, SOME OF WHICH OUR PREDECESSORS ALIENATED BY RIGHTS OTHER THAN FREE ADMINISTRATION OF THESE GOODS DURING THEIR PERSONAL LIVES, SO THAT WE FIND OURSELVES IN SUCH WANT AND POVERTY THAT WE CANNOT PROVIDE SATISFACTORY FOR THE NEEDS OF THE CHURCHES, AND INDEED WE OURSELVES SCARCELY HAVE THE MEANS OF SUBSISTANCE, WE REQUIRE THAT THESE PROPERTIES BE RETURNED TO OUR CHURCHES.  If anyone has legitimately aquired the lifetime unsufruct of any ecclesiastical benefice, let him be obliged to pay an annual rent to the Church, and upon his death let the benefice revert to the Church.  Such a benefice shalll not be granted to anyone without the consent of the bishop and his chapter.  Every benefice to which the Church presently has title is to be recorded in the Gospel Books, even if the Church does not exercise any control over some benefices.  In that way they will at least belong indisputable to the Church.  With this accomplished, the Church can then undertake to regain those benefices which have been alienated at an earlier time.

27.  That WE SHALL BE FREE TO HAVE SCHOOLS AND SEMINARIES in the Greek and
Church-Slavonic languages in the localities where it is most convenient, and that our printing-presses SHALL BE FREE (of course under the supervision of the Metropolitain and bishops, so that no heresies be propagated and nothing be printed without the knowledge and consent of the Metropolitain and bishops.

----------------------------

[The above articles show how the Poles began to undermine the Orthodox church as soon as they conquered the territority.  Orthodox no longer had basic human rights in their own lands as long as they remained part of the Orthodox Church.  Churches and church property was confiscated, and financial support withdrawn.]

[ I have read that some Orthodox prelates were NKVD agents.]

And all the Ukrainian priests and Bishops were saints and martyrs?  There was also a KGB unit within the Ukrainian Communist party.  And, are you trying to tell me all the communists are gone from the present Ukrainian government including Kutchma?

[The Catholic priests who refused to go along with this atrocity were in most cases incarcerated with many either dying in jail or murdered before being incarcerated.]


And in 1596 the Orthodox priests who refused that union were excommunicated and were accused of committing acts of treason and hung or imprisioned for it.  What's the difference?

And, let me give you some statistics right from the KGB files on what happened to the Orthodox.  If your going to cry, then cry for ALL WHO  suffered under communism, not just the Ukrainians or the Eastern Catholics who were under Rome.

=====

MOSCOW [RNS} - Some 200,000 clergy, many crucified, scalped, and otherwise

tortured, were killed during the communist era in the former Soviet Union, a

Russian commission reported here on November 27, 1995.  Another 500,000

believers were martyred and millions exiled.  There were 40,000 churches destroyed between 1922 and1980, the report said.



"Clergymen were crucified on churches' Holy Gates, shot scalped, and

strangled.," said Alexander Yakovlev, head of the Commission for the

Rehabilitation of the Victims of Political Repression which prepared the

report for Russian president Boris Yeltsin.  "I was especially shocked by

accounts of priests turned into columns of ice in winter, "Yakovlev

continued, adding that the commission unearthed documents showing that as

early as 1918, Vladimr Lenin had odered a campagn of "merciless terror

against priests.

=====

 [I personally find this even more objectionable than your obvious bitterness to all things Catholic because the communist depredations and persecution of Orthodoxy are so well known and equally execrable, not to mention Uncle Joe's engineered mass starvation of Ukranians in the 1930's. If I were Orthodox, I wouldn't want my Church and Faith even remotely identified with the communists who so horribly persecuted it.]

Oh yes, Uncle Joe.  Wasn't he a Georgian rather than Russian?  And wasn't he excommunicated from the Orthodox Church?  And WHO cared out his edict?   Could it be the members of the Ukrainian Communist Party who carried out the mass starvation?

 [Will negotiation and accommodation provide a means of handling this?]

There was a 'Quadripartite Ageement' set up regarding this where each of the Churches in question would decide BY VOTE  whether they wanted to remain in the Orthodox Church or return to the UGCC.  But after only six weeks the UGCC turned their backs on it and started to use force -

---------

STATEMENT:  by the Holy Synod of the Moscow Patriarchate in Connection with the Leaving by the Catholics of the Eastern Rite of the Quadripartite Commission for Normalizing Relations Between the Orthodox and the Catholics of the Eastern Rite in the Western Regions of the Ukraine and Concerning the Decision Adopted by the Lvov City Soviet of the People's Deputies on April 6, 1990



[NOTE:  This statement was made on April 6, 1990 just 27 days before the demise of Patrairch Pimen.  Patriarch Alexy had not been elected yet.

Also note the sentences I have capitalized which indicate that, what the Pope was telling the Russian Orthodox was in direct contradiction to what the Eastern Rite Ukrainian Bishops were claiming.]



In August 1989, the Russian Orthodox Church, acting through fraternal contacts with the Primate of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope John Paul II, and his representatives, and prompted by pastoral concern, displayed initiative on the settlement of te position of the Catholics of the Eastern Rite in the Western Ukraine.

In accordance with the plans for settling the said problems, approved by both sides, a quadripartie Commission, consisting of representatives of the Holy See, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the Catholics of the Eastern Rite, was working in Lvov on March 8-13, 1990.

As a result of the work, carried out by the Commission, involving trips, on-the-spot inspection of churches by its members and meetings with believers, the Commission unanimously adopted a number of practical decisions:  churches in the towns of Nestrov, Zoochev, Nikolaev, Yavorov, Stryj, and Borislav were distributed between the Orthodox and the Uniates.

On the last  day of the Commissions work, Archbishop Vladimir Sternyuk, one of the representatives of the Catholics of the Eastern Rite, suddenly left the commission, BUT THE CATHOLIC SIDE THE DECLARED THAT WORK COULD BE CONTINUED, SINCE THEIR OTHER REPRESENTATIVE WAS PRESENT, AND THE PRINCIPLE OF REPRESENTATION BY THE FOUR SIDES WAS THUS OBSERVED.

On March 13th, the Commission approved the statement on the results of the first meeting, stressing that this was only the beginning of the process of settlement, after which representatives of the Churches would go over to considering other outstanding questions.  To prevent acts of extremism, Commission members, acting on behalf of their respective churches, PLEDGED TO EXCLUDE ANY POSSIBILITY OF FORCIBLE SEIZURES OF CHURCHES.

The Holy Synod of the Moscow Patriarchate approved the results of the Commissions work and declared that our Church is ready to continue her efforts to settle this problem.

However, on Mrach 22nd, the Lvov newspaper, Leninska molodj, published a  "Statement of the Episcopate of the Greek Catholic Church in the Ukraine Concerning the Talks of the Quadripartite Commission on Relations Between the Orthodox and the Catholics", announcing the invalidity of the documents issued by the Commission in the process of these talks,  "including all documents on the transfer of churches.  MOREOVER, THE SAME STATEMENT SAYS THAT EVERYTHING PRESENTED BY VLADYKAS FROM THE UKRAINE HAS BEEN AGREED  UPON WITH POPE JOHN PAUL II.

Following this statement, the seizures of Orthodox churches, involving acts of violence and lawlessness, became frequent.  Uniate leaders call for banishing the Orthodox Church from the territory of the Western Ukraine.  It is noteworthy that in its Statement the episcopate of the Ukrainian Catholics declares that 'THE UKRAINIAN GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE ONLY CHURCH IN THE UKRAINE."

In many towns and villages the Orthodox are compelled to pray right in the street.  The life of the Orthodox people in Galicia is clouded by tears and suffering.

Instead of observing the law and ensuring their citizens' security, the local authorities take a one sided anti-Orthodox stand  The most striking illustration of this is the recent decision of the Lvov City Soviet to take St Yur Cathedral and the bishops residence away from the Orthodox believers and turn them over to the Catholics of the Eastern Rite.  On the eve of the feast of  Holy Pascha the Orthodox may find themselves in the street!

Lawlessness has reached the limit in the Western Ukraine, and the inimical tension in relations to believers of the two communities is fraught with unpredictable complications.  While it is not to late, the Holy Synod once again calls for an end to the brother-hating relations and for finding, in the spirit of Christ's love, a just and legitimate way of settling the problem.

We believe that the Ukrainian consanguineous brothers and sisters and their religious pastors are capable of reaching agreements restoring conditions for a peaceful and quiet life in ther native land.

The Holy Synod hopes that the Holy See will pay attention to the complicated situation with regard to the settlement of the problems of the Catholics of the Eastern Rite in the Western Ukraine and will not allow these events to affect the developement of the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue.  IN THIS CONNECTION WE CALL IN QUESTION THE TRUSTWORTHINESS OF THE UNIATE EPISCOPATE'S  ALLEGATION THAT THEIR PRONOUNCEMENTS HAVE BEEN AGREED UPON  WITH POPE JOHN PAUL II, BECAUSE THIS ALLEGATION IS  AT VARIANCE WITH THE VATICAN'S OFFICIAL STATEMENT, WHICH SAYS:  "THE HOLY SEE IS HIGHLY SATISFIED WITH THE AGREEMENT REACHED BY ITS ENVOYS IN COOPERATION WITH ORTHODOX REPRESENTATIVES."

The Church calls upon all  her faithful children to pray for the persecuted and suffering brothers and sisters in Galicia, to raise their voice in their defense and to give them all possible assistance.

We ask for the personal interference of President of the Soviet Union M. Gorbachev  and the highest authorities of the Ukrainian SSR in order to establish law and order, pu an end to violence, annul the Lvov City Soviets's decision concerning St Yur Cathedral and the bishop's residence in Livov  return the forcibly seized churches, ensure a normal church life and help overcome the difficult problems inherited from the past.

Resolutely protesting against the stand taken by the local authorities in the Western Ukraine, particulary in Lvov, the Holy Synod declares that the path they have chosen further aggravates the inter-religious situation and enmity  amidst the Ukrainian people rather than promotes the settlement of conflicts.

We pray to God, Who vanquished all evil forces on earth by His Ressurection, also to resurrect our souls for love, fraternity, and peace!

----------

Orthodoc


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« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2004, 11:01:45 AM »

Orthodox,

"Where is that any different than Greek Catholics churches becoming Orthodox through a signed agreement in 1946?"

The difference is that the Unia, as much as you wish otherwise, was initiated by hierarchs and supported by the clergy and people, at least a sizable portion of them.  You don't want to believe it but the unias wouldn't have survived without popular suppport.  And you can save the poor, ignorant , deceived serf speech for somebody that is going to believe it.

"Are you trying to insinuate that after the union was signed the newly created UGCC built new churches for itself and its people? "

You don't think that in the 300+ years from 1596 to 1946 the Greek Catholics built any new churches?  Or that the Orthodox built repalcemnts for those they lost in the Unia?

"Why should WHO or what type of government  initiated it make any difference?"

It doesn't.  The difference is that in 1596 a sizable portion of the clergy and people wanted union, nor did the Orthodox Church cease to exist in the Polish Kingdom or Austrian-Hungarian Empire.  In 1946 an entire Church was exterminated against the will of all of its members.  The MP collaborated. If they were such friends to the Greek Catholics as you say why didn't they give their churches back when Communism collapsed?

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« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2004, 12:24:31 PM »


Comments re Orthodoc’s last post:

Your prolix post notwithstanding, I still assert that it is an eggregious insult to true Orthodoxy for someone to associate the liquidation of EC eparchies in Galicia, Transcarpathia, and other Catholic areas of Western Ukraine with Orthodoxy when it was largely an NKVD effort with Stalin's approval even if the MP was supposedly involved.  This still leaves lots of room to argue, disagree with, or otherwise be disenchanted with what has happened between the Orthodox and the Unia post 1987.

Your recitation of the abominable treatment of Orthodox by the Communist in the entire Soviet Union was unnecessary.  I acknowledged that without all the detail in my original post regarding my statement about Communist depredations in the Ukraine including the engineered famine.  You are preaching to the choir.

Comments re Fr. Deacon Lance’s last post:

Quote
"Why should WHO or what type of government  initiated it make any difference?"

It doesn't.  The difference is that in 1596 a sizable portion of the clergy and people wanted union, nor did the Orthodox Church cease to exist in the Polish Kingdom or Austrian-Hungarian Empire.  In 1946 an entire Church was exterminated against the will of all of its members.  The MP collaborated. If they were such friends to the Greek Catholics as you say why didn't they give their churches back when Communism collapsed?

I would desire to nuance Father’s last sentence—these are my words and my opinion, not necessarily his—by saying that the issue of return of Church properties to the EC’s is enormously complicated.  I don’t sign on to violent behavior of EC’s in reclaiming their property or in Orthodox bulldozing properties rather than letting them fall into the hands of EC’s (OK, this latter thing happened in Rumania; I’m not necessarily saying it happened in the Galicia or Transcarpathia).  As I indicated in my previous post, I’m not sure that this can be resolved to anybody's satisfaction.

I am sure, however, that the right of EC’s to their own religious life is a First Amendment issue, the same right that belongs to the Orthodox anywhere in the world including Orthodox rights in Galicia and Transcarpathia.  The First Amendment regarding free exercise of religion is a human right embodied even in the phony constitution of the Soviet Union, the compacts of other sovereign nations, and in the official declarations and agreements of international associations.

If you, Orthodoc, want to assert that the 1946 Synod that cancelled Brest-Litovsk is just and due payback for the Brest-Litovsk and Uzhorod agreements, then have at it if it makes you happy.  I just don’t think that it is in Orthodoxy’s best interests to be associated with this “event.”

This thread ought to be shut down.  I think that we are just beating a dead horse with continued polemics.
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« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2004, 01:25:50 PM »

[The difference is that the Unia, as much as you wish otherwise, was initiated by hierarchs and supported by the clergy and people, at least a sizable portion of them.]

Well Father Deacon Lance you can go on believing the revisionist history put out by the Vatican and the UGCC.  But, if the above is as true as you claim it is, perhaps you can answer the following questions for me -

1)  Why, after the union was accomplished was the Pope's name only commerated in the main Cathedral while only the local Bishop's name was commerated in all the villages and towns throughtout the land?

2)  Why, when those who heard the Popes name being commerated, were told it was because he had joined the Orthodox Church when they questioned it?

3)  Why was the word 'Pravoslavny (Orthodox)' retained in the Liturgy rather than either the word 'Catholic' or more precise 'Roman Catholic' ?

4)  Why was it necessary to request 33 articles of quarantees, many asking for what we would consider bask humans rights, before the union could be established?  

5)  Why, up until this day, is it considered an insult to identify  you with titles  that in any way, shape, or form identifies you as loyal members of the Roman Pope and part of his loyal subjects?

6)  Why would the Bishops who signed the union include such statements as this in the 'Union of Brest'  if the union was the will of the majority the people and clergy and based on theological issues as you claim?

[Article  13:  And if in time the Lord shall grant that the rest of the brethren of our
people and of the Greek Religion shall come to this same holy unity, it shall not be held against us or begrudged to us that we have proceeded them in this unity, FOR WE HAVE TO DO THIS FOR DEFINITE, SERIOUS REASONS, FOR HARMONY IN THE CHRISTIAN REPUBLIC  [POLAND] TO AVOID FURTHER CONFUSION AND DISCORD.

Article 31:  And when the Lord God by His will and holy grace shall permit the rest
of our brothers of the Eastern Church of the Greek tradidtion to come to the holy unity with the Western Church, and later in this common union and by the permission of the Universal Church  THERE SHOULD BE ANY CHANGE IN THE CEREMONIES AND TYPICON OF THE GREEK CHURCH, WE SHALL SHARE ALL THIS AS PEOPLE OF THE SAME RELIGION.

Article 32:  We have heard that some have departed for Greece to procure
ecclesiastical powers and return here to advise and influence the clergy and extend their jurisdiction over us.  WE, THEREFORE, REQUEST THE KING'S GRACE TO ORDER PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN ON THE STATE BORDERS SO THAT ANYONE BEARING SUCH JURISDICTIONS AND EXCOMMUNICATIONS BE BARRED FROM ENTERING THE KINGDOM.  OTHERWISE, GRAVE MISUNDERSTANDINGS COULD ARISE BETWEEN THE  PASTORS AND THE FLOCKS OF THEIR CHURCH.]

Additional questions regarding this -

a)  If this was the will of the majority of the people and clergy as you claim, why would they be asking for the borders to be closed to bar any  Orthodox Bishops, Monks, or Clergy from entering?

b)  What grave misunderstandings would occur between the Pastors and their people  if the borders were not closed and the Orthodox  were allowed to enter, if the people had knowledge of and supported the Union?

7)  Can you explain to me why the following articles were included in the 'Union' if the people were free and already had these  basic human rights and privileges as Orthodox Christians?

Article 22:  That the Romans should not forbid us to ring bells in our churches on
Good Friday, both in the cities and everywhere else.

Article 23: That we should not be forbidden to visit the sick with the Most Holy
Mysteries, publicly, with the lights and vestments, according to our rubrics.

Article 24:  That without any interference we might be free to hold processions, as many as are required, on holdy days, according to our custom.

Article 25:  That our Rus' monasteries and churches should not be changed into Roman Catholic churches.  And if any Roman Catholic has damaged or destroyed one of our churches or monasteries, in his territory, he shall be obliged to repair it or build a new one for the exclusive use of the Rus' people.

Perhaps if you can answer the above questions  you might be able to convince us this union was a result of a love fest between the Ukrainian people and Rome as you claim.

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« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2004, 04:55:16 PM »

Orthodoc,

1)  Why, after the union was accomplished was the Pope's name only commerated in the main Cathedral while only the local Bishop's name was commerated in all the villages and towns throughtout the land?

- Becasue the ancient Liturgical practice was for the Bishops to commemorate the Patriarch/Pope and the local priest to commemorate the Bishop.

2)  Why, when those who heard the Popes name being commerated, were told it was because he had joined the Orthodox Church when they questioned it?

-Unsubstantiated

3)  Why was the word 'Pravoslavny (Orthodox)' retained in the Liturgy rather than either the word 'Catholic' or more precise 'Roman Catholic' ?

-Because they did not consider tehmselves to have become not Pravoslavny only united to Rome

4)  Why was it necessary to request 33 articles of quarantees, many asking for what we would consider bask humans rights, before the union could be established?

-Because basic human rights didn't exist and to protect themselves form Latinization and Polonization after teh union.

5)  Why, up until this day, is it considered an insult to identify  you with titles  that in any way, shape, or form identifies you as loyal members of the Roman Pope and part of his loyal subjects?

-Byzantine/Greek Catholic does identify us as such.  Empress Maria Teresa came up with term.  Terms like Eastern Rite Roman Catholic, besides being inaccurate, imply we have no right to our Eastern heritage, that we are foreigners who are pretending to be something we are not.  We are in communion with Rome, we do accept (or are supposed to) some theology the Orthodox do not-Papal Infallibility, but we are not of the Latin/Roman tradition.  We do not relate to Christ through that system.  We are Eastern and Catholic.  I do not deny Orthodox the term Catholic.

6)  Why would the Bishops who signed the union include such statements as this in the 'Union of Brest'  if the union was the will of the majority the people and clergy and based on theological issues as you claim?

-Becasue it was not unanimous.  I never said all agreed.  But a sizable portion did or we wouldn't be here today.  Obviously the bishops would want to prevent foreign Greek bishops from usurping their jurisdiction.  

7)  Can you explain to me why the following articles were included in the 'Union' if the people were free and already had these  basic human rights and privileges as Orthodox Christians?

-I did not say they did.  I said they were not completely forced underground as happened in 1946.  All their churches were not taken, all their bishops were not killed or imprisoned.

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« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2004, 05:09:13 PM »

Where did you get this from? The only other times I heard this claim was from Alex Roman long before you made it. He repeated it a few times, but  has never backed it up with a source. Did you get it from reading one of his infinite posts?

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Anthony

"2)  Why, when those who heard the Popes name being commerated, were told it was because he had joined the Orthodox Church when they questioned it?"
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« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2004, 07:13:25 PM »

[Did you get it from reading one of his infinite posts?]

I've read those posts on the 'other forum' but Alex isn't the only source.  I've also read it and heard it from the Parish Baba's (who came here as Greek Catholics) when I was a kid.

Have a church committee meeting tonight and tomorrow will be making 'holupki' all day at the Church so I won't have time to look up my sources for a day or two.  Will try and get back with further sources.

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« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2004, 09:35:19 PM »

1) Why, after the union was accomplished was the Pope's name only commerated in the main Cathedral while only the local Bishop's name was commerated in all the villages and towns throughtout the land?

-
Fr Deacon replies:   Becasue the ancient Liturgical practice was for the Bishops to commemorate the Patriarch/Pope and the local priest to commemorate the Bishop.

Orthodox responds:  Every Liturgy I have ever attended commerates both the chief Hierach and the local Bishop.  But, since I can neither confirm or deny what you say, I will leave it as a possibility even though I am not thoroughly convinced.  Perhaps someone can either confirm or deny this reply from Father Deacon Lance and give references?

2) Why, when those who heard the Popes name being commerated, were told it was because he had joined the Orthodox Church when they questioned it?

Fr Deacon replies:  -Unsubstantiated

Orthodoc responds: I have read this but can't remember where.  I have also heard it as a child from some of the older people in both my childhood parish and my present parish who came here as Greek Catholics.  Also,  Dr Alex Roman PhD who  is a Ukrainian Catholic has substantiated this on the Byzantine Forum.  Either search the archives or ask him yourself if you don't believe me.  Perhaps he can provide references if he was indeed serious when he wrote the statementes in the 'other' forum.

3) Why was the word 'Pravoslavny (Orthodox)' retained in the Liturgy rather than either the word 'Catholic' or more precise 'Roman Catholic' ?

Fr Deacon replies:  Because they did not consider tehmselves to have become not Pravoslavny only united to Rome

Orthodoc responds:  When one turns their backs on the canons, doctrines, & dogmas, of the Orthodox Catholic Church, and accepts  Papal authority,  one  ceases to be Orthodox and becomes a part of the Roman Catholic Church.  You may not like it but they are the facts.

4) Why was it necessary to request 33 articles of quarantees, many asking for what we would consider bask humans rights, before the union could be established?

Fr Deacon replies: -Because basic human rights didn't exist and to protect themselves form Latinization and Polonization after teh union.

Orthodoc responds:  Why would they have to protect themselves if the union was a result  their recognizing the validity and superioty of the Papal Church?  Many of the rights they were asking for are considered as Sacraments in the Orthodox Church. And, are you trying to convince me they never had any of those basic rights prior to the Polish take over?  Rights such as religious processions, administering to the sick at home, & ringing the church bells?  If you are, you can't really be serious?  Sacraments such as Confession, Communion, and Holy Unction, which would be given to the sick, are now, and have always been an important aspect of Holy Orthodoxy.  To say they were also denied prior to the Polish take over is illogical.

5) Why, up until this day, is it considered an insult to identify you with titles that in any way, shape, or form identifies you as loyal members of the Roman Pope and part of his loyal subjects?

Fr Deacon replies:  -Byzantine/Greek Catholic does identify us as such. Empress Maria Teresa came up with term. Terms like Eastern Rite Roman Catholic, besides being inaccurate, imply we have no right to our Eastern heritage, that we are foreigners who are pretending to be something we are not.

Orthodoc responds:  But that's exactly what you are doing.  Pretending to be something you no longer are - Orthodox.

And, how does a term like EASTERN RITE Roman Catholic  imply you have no right to your EASTERN heritage?

Fr Deacon replies:  We are in communion with Rome, we do accept (or are supposed to) some theology the Orthodox do not-Papal Infallibility, but we are not of the Latin/Roman tradition.

Orthodoc responds:  So you are in communion with,  pledge allegiance to, and accept as the highest authority in your church, a Bishop who holds doctrines such as Papal Infallibility and makes claims you reject?  Can you show me where it states you are not required to believe in Papal Infallibility which wasn't even believed when the union was signed?  Can you show me where or what Canon in the 'Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches' where you are exonerated from belief in Papal Infallibility or any other the doctrine the Pope may come up with now or in the future?

When your church came under the authority of Rome,  it pledged both its obedience and loyality to the Pope and the doctrines, dogmas, and canons he upholds and  professes. That's the way the Roman Catholic church is structered Father Deacon.  Its one of the main reasons the schism occurred in the first place.  

Getting to pick and choose what beliefs you accept and/or reject is a Protestant belief.  It is neither Orthodox Catholic or Roman Catholic.

What I find amazing is when I have lurked in your discussion groups, is the fact that even when Roman Catholics try and  explain what I have just done, you reject what they have to say.

And, ones religion or religious identity is not based on ones traditions but  ones  beliefs (contained in its doctrines, dogmas, and canons)

Fr Deacon further replies:  We do not relate to Christ through that system. We are Eastern and Catholic. I do not deny Orthodox the term Catholic.  

Orthodox responds: Nor could you, since you would have to prove we left that One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church we profess belief in when we recite the Creed in its original form.

And, are you telling me that ones religious identity is a matter of negiotation rather than what beliefs one confesses?  If I agree to your 'catholicity'  you should agree to my 'Orthodoxy'?  That, in itself,  shows how far your churches ideas have gone from Orthodox praxis.

6) Why would the Bishops who signed the union include such statements as this in the 'Union of Brest' if the union was the will of the majority the people and clergy and based on theological issues as you claim?

Fr Deacon replies:  -Becasue it was not unanimous. I never said all agreed. But a sizable portion did or we wouldn't be here today. Obviously the bishops would want to prevent foreign Greek bishops from usurping their jurisdiction.

Orthodoc responds:  You are here today because you had a Polish Roman Catholic government that protected you and literally outlawed the Orthodox Church in the lands it conquered.

7) Can you explain to me why the following articles were included in the 'Union' if the people were free and already had these basic human rights and privileges as Orthodox Christians?

Fr Deacon replies: -I did not say they did. I said they were not completely forced underground as happened in 1946. All their churches were not taken, all their bishops were not killed or imprisoned.

Orthodoc responds:  They weren't?  Once again, after the Union was signed those  clergy that remained loyal to Orthodoxy were excommunicated and many were arrested for treason imprisioned or killed.  Sound familiar?  After the signing of the 'Union of Brest'  the government was restricted from closing certain Orthodox Churches which were the only ones that could remain open because of the Magdebug Law it had signed previously and had to uphold.

=======
"The Orthodox Church In The History Of Russia"  - Dimitry Pospielovsky

Page 93-94:

The  new Polish government could not legally shut down those churches which belonged to the self governing  brotherhoods, which enjoyed immunity under the Magdebug Law.  Nor could the King, close a Church built on a private estate; and a minority of the  landed gentry, such as Prince Ostrozhskii for instance, were still Orthodox and had Orthodox Churches built on their estates.  But the safest areas for the Orthodox were the territories controlled by the Cossacks, i.e., the lower Dnieper area, including Kiev.
===========

Many other estates were turned over to jewish landlords and the Orthodox were forced to pay have any services including Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, Funerals, Marriages, and Baptisms.

In another one of your posts you comment -

 "And you can save the poor, ignorant , deceived serf speech for somebody that is going to believe it. "

Orthodoc responds:  So are you going to try and covince us that the vast majority of Ukrainians (who were serfs) were literate and could read and write in the 15th and 16th century while the majority of people in western europe were still undeducated & therefore illerate?  Can you substantiate that with some book references?

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« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2004, 11:07:22 PM »

Orthodoc!..
Good Stuff. Smiley

Hard to follow, but still good stuff.
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« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2004, 09:41:05 AM »

Orthodox,

You contradicted yourself.  On one hand you state the people were told the Pope became Orthodox and then you question why Pravoslavny continued to be used in the Liturgy.

"Why would they have to protect themselves if the union was a result  their recognizing the validity and superioty of the Papal Church?  And, are you trying to convince me they never had any of those basic rights prior to the Polish take over?"

Guarantees usually aren't sought unless some for of discrimination/harassment has or is happening.

"So you are in communion with,  pledge allegiance to, and accept as the highest authority in your church, a Bishop who holds doctrines such as Papal Infallibility and makes claims you reject?"

I have never stated I reject any dogma of the Catholic Church.  One is free to object to the way in which the Petrine ministry is exercised, just not the ministry itself.  I do reject Ultramontane claims that the only valid theological tradition is their own.

"And, are you telling me that ones religious identity is a matter of negiotation rather than what beliefs one confesses?  If I agree to your 'catholicity'  you should agree to my 'Orthodoxy'?"

Not at all.  I am refering to the common courtesy of refering to a person or Church by the name they go buy not one invented by another.  I do not refer to Oriental Orthodox as Monophysites, or Assyrians as Nestorians, or Eastern Orthodox as Greek Schismatics, or Polish National Catholics as Polish Dissidents.  I expect my Church to be called Byzantine or Greek Catholic not some name invented  by another and intended to be derogatory.

"You are here today because you had a Polish Roman Catholic government that protected you and literally outlawed the Orthodox Church in the lands it conquered."

And yet after those lands passed back to Russia we coniued to exist despite Tsarist and Soviet oppression and harrasment by the MP.

"The  new Polish government could not legally shut down those churches which belonged to the self governing  brotherhoods, which enjoyed immunity under the Magdebug Law.  Nor could the King, close a Church built on a private estate; and a minority of the  landed gentry, such as Prince Ostrozhskii for instance, were still Orthodox and had Orthodox Churches built on their estates."

You prove my point.  Not ALL the churches were conficated.  After 1946, not one church remained in Greek Catholic hands.  Every one of our bishops was imprisoned or martyred.

"Many other estates were turned over to jewish landlords and the Orthodox were forced to pay have any services including Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, Funerals, Marriages, and Baptisms."

Greek Catholic were forced to have their services in the woods under fear of discovery and imprisonment.

"So are you going to try and covince us that the vast majority of Ukrainians (who were serfs) were literate and could read and write in the 15th and 16th century while the majority of people in western europe were still undeducated & therefore illerate?  Can you substantiate that with some book references?"

When did I mention literacy?  I am refering to plain common sense and intelligence.  I do not believe that becasue the people were peasants they ignorant dupes who didn't understand what was going on around them.

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2004, 09:43:12 AM »

There are signs of hope.


Orthodox (UOC-MP) Community in Transcarpathia Gives Greek Catholics Old Church

02.10.04 (RISU.org.ua) - The community of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) in the village of Osii, Irshava district, in southwestern Ukraine’s Transcarpathia region, has given its old church to the local Greek Catholic community. This news was reported by the information agency “Obozrevatel” on 8 February 2004.

The Orthodox community has an almost completed church building in the village center and decided to return its old church to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which used to own it before 1949. On the occasion of this transfer, Bishop Milan Sasik, apostolic administrator for the Greek Catholic eparchy of Mukachevo in Ukraine's Transcarpathia region, celebrated a liturgy for the faithful of the two communities.

Bishop Sasik called upon the faithful to help the Orthodox community finish the construction of its new church. He also added that the Orthodox communities in four other villages of the Transcarpathia region, namely Velyki Lazy, Benedykivtsi, Zarichchia and Sasiv will follow this example and alleviate tension over churches between Orthodox and Greek Catholic faithful. So far, all attempts to solve conflicts peacefully have failed.

According to Vasyl Mandziuk, deputy head of the Committee on Religious Matters in the Transcarpathia region, in 36 towns of the region communities take turns conducting services and in 13 towns interdenominational conflicts are officially registered. Mandziak stressed such conflicts will last until people decide what their denomination is.

Before the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church in the Transcarpathia region in 1949, there had been 280 Greek Catholic communities with more than 400,000 faithful. The Orthodox Church had 155 communities and 142,000 faithful.
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« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2004, 11:39:45 AM »

There are signs of hope.


Orthodox (UOC-MP) Community in Transcarpathia Gives Greek Catholics Old Church

02.10.04 (RISU.org.ua) - The community of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) in the village of Osii, Irshava district, in southwestern Ukraine’s Transcarpathia region, has given its old church to the local Greek Catholic community. This news was reported by the information agency “Obozrevatel” on 8 February 2004.

The Orthodox community has an almost completed church building in the village center and decided to return its old church to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which used to own it before 1949. On the occasion of this transfer, Bishop Milan Sasik, apostolic administrator for the Greek Catholic eparchy of Mukachevo in Ukraine's Transcarpathia region, celebrated a liturgy for the faithful of the two communities.

Bishop Sasik called upon the faithful to help the Orthodox community finish the construction of its new church. He also added that the Orthodox communities in four other villages of the Transcarpathia region, namely Velyki Lazy, Benedykivtsi, Zarichchia and Sasiv will follow this example and alleviate tension over churches between Orthodox and Greek Catholic faithful. So far, all attempts to solve conflicts peacefully have failed.

According to Vasyl Mandziuk, deputy head of the Committee on Religious Matters in the Transcarpathia region, in 36 towns of the region communities take turns conducting services and in 13 towns interdenominational conflicts are officially registered. Mandziak stressed such conflicts will last until people decide what their denomination is.

Before the liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church in the Transcarpathia region in 1949, there had been 280 Greek Catholic communities with more than 400,000 faithful. The Orthodox Church had 155 communities and 142,000 faithful.

I would love to see "Aid for the Church in Need" or other some such organization or organizations contribute funds for the building, re-building, renovation, etc., of Orthodox and Greek Catholic  Churches and associated religious structures (other denominations too in charity and justice) in Galicia, Transcarpathia, and other regions of the Western Ukraine . . . also in Kosovo where the moslems have torched many Orthodox Churches/monasteries, etc., in supposed revenge for Milosevic and company's depredations.
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« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2004, 12:00:13 PM »

[You contradicted yourself.  On one hand you state the people were told the Pope became Orthodox and then you question why Pravoslavny continued to be used in the Liturgy.]

How is that a contradiction?  The point is that after the Union was signed nothing changed except the commemoration of the Pope was only done in the Cathedrals.  The concept of the 'Unia' was that the Roman Catholics knew that the Ukrianians had a fierce loyality to Orthodoxy and would never agree to become Roman Catholics.  However, they also knew the vast majority could neither read nor write.  Because of this,  your average Ukrainian based things on what they saw and heard.  So, as long as everything stayed the same and sounded the same, how would they ever know what had occurred?  How would they know that they had now become part of the Roman Catholic Church?  They didn't take the word 'Pravoslavny' out of the Liturgy and the local Bishops name in most cases remained the same.  

In the Cathedral where the Popes name was now commemorated, and the people questioned it, they were told that the Pope had become Orthodox.  So where have I contradicted myself?  I think I made it all very clear.

[Guarantees usually aren't sought unless some for of discrimination/harassment has or is happening.]

And that is exactly the point I've been trying to make all along!  But you don't seem to know or understand WHEN that discrimination/harassment began.  Which was AFTER the Polish takeover, not before.

[I have never stated I reject any dogma of the Catholic Church.  One is free to object to the way in which the Petrine ministry is exercised, just not the ministry itself. ]

Now who is contradicting oneself?  Papal Infallibility is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

DOGMA:  The truth of faith and morals which is reveled by God AND AFFIRMED BY THE CHURCH.  THE FAITHFUL ARE REQUIRED TO BELIEVE THE DOGMA PROCLAIMED BY THE CHURCH COUNCILS AND THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH.

From the New Advent Catholic Encylopedia

EXPLANATION OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY

The Vatican Council has defined as "a divinely revealed dogma" that "the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra -- that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church -- is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church's consent"

[Not at all.  I am refering to the common courtesy of refering to a person or Church by the name they go buy not one invented by another.   I expect my Church to be called Byzantine or Greek Catholic not some name invented  by another and intended to be derogatory.]

Didn't you proclaim in another post that your  identity originated with an Empress Maria?  The Mormon Church proclaims they are Christians but they profess beliefs that are contrary to Christianity.  They believe that every individual member can become a God and they accept modern scripures that are not condusive to Christianity.  Does that mean we are to use 'common courtesy'  and agree to identify them as something they are not?  And, may I remind you this is an Orthodox discussion group.

[And yet after those lands passed back to Russia we coniued to exist despite Tsarist and Soviet oppression and harrasment by the MP.]

Yes but at a much, much reduced membership because most areas returned to Orthodoxy.  This return  was iniated in 1621 when the Cossacks presentated an ultimatum to the Polish Crown, stating that unless all pescution of the Orthodox Church ceased, they would refuse to fight the Turks along with the Poles.  

[You prove my point.  Not ALL the churches were conficated.  After 1946, not one church remained in Greek Catholic hands.  Every one of our bishops was imprisoned or martyred.]

But many of them remained open and were supported by Orthodox money and the Sacraments continued to be administered to the faithful.  Are you honestly in here trying to convince us had the ROC refused to take them under their wing Stalin would have reneged on his edict to close them and destroy them?  What would you have preferred?  Closed and destroyed  Churches; or opened ones where the Sacraments necessary for your salvation where still provided by Orthodox priests?  

What you are insinuating is that a destroyed faith is preferrable to a faith passing into Orthodox hands!

[Greek Catholic were forced to have their services in the woods under fear of discovery and imprisonment.]

And how is that any better or worse than  having to pay a non Christian for any service you wanted to have?  Or that to remain Orthodox was considered as treason punishable by imprisionment or death?

[When did I mention literacy?  I am refering to plain common sense and intelligence.  I do not believe that becasue the people were peasants they ignorant dupes who didn't understand what was going on around them.]

Reread my first reply.  And then explain to me how people who could neither read nor write could discern there were indeed any changes when everything stayed the same.
Once again, the whole premise of the Unia was based on deception that as long as everything remained the same the people would not know the difference.  The latinizations would be gradual over the future generations.  This is why you are in the prcess of delatinization today.

Orthodoc
 

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« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2004, 02:16:23 PM »

"So where have I contradicted myself?  I think I made it all very clear."

You were not at all clear.  However, now that I understand you, I still disagree with you.

"But you don't seem to know or understand WHEN that discrimination/harassment began.  Which was AFTER the Polish takeover, not before."

I do understand that.  Again you were unclear.

"Now who is contradicting oneself?  Papal Infallibility is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church."

Not me, I accept the dogma of Papl Infallibility.  I do have the right to object to the way the Petrine ministry is exercised, especially as concerns the Curia.  The Pope himself has asked the Orthodox to discuss this very thing.

"Didn't you proclaim in another post that your  identity originated with an Empress Maria?"

I said she coined the name Greek Catholic.  Our identity orignated with SS. Cyril and Methodius.

"Does that mean we are to use 'common courtesy'  and agree to identify them as something they are not?  And, may I remind you this is an Orthodox discussion group."

You need not remind me.  I have not asked you to call us Orthodox.  I have asked you to call us what we are:  Byzantine or Greek Catholic.

"What would you have preferred?"

That the MP din't collaborate with Soviets and celebrated Liturgy in the woods with us.  Most of our people did not go to the Orthodox for the sacraments, but risked their freedom to receive from their own priests in the woods.

"explain to me how people who could neither read nor write could discern there were indeed any changes when everything stayed the same."

Well according to you those that didn't accept the unia were thrown in prison or harrassed.  Our people didn't see this and know why?  They didn't realize that Polish Latin priests were invited to processions and other services?  That's why I don't buy the "they told us the Pope became Orthodox" story.  It is insulting to the intelligence of our people.  It looks like a later fabrication created during the court battles in the US when St. Alexis Toth coverted Greek Catholic parishes to the Russian Metropolia.  

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« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2004, 05:48:23 PM »

Orthodoc writes:  "Now who is contradicting oneself?  Papal Infallibility is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church."

Fr Deacon replies:  Not me, I accept the dogma of Papal Infallibility.  I do have the right to object to the way the Petrine ministry is exercised, especially as concerns the Curia.  The Pope himself has asked the Orthodox to discuss this very thing.

Orthodoc responds:  If you accept the dogma of Papal Infallibility then you must also accept all that an infallible Pope proclaims, upholds, and protects?  Otherwise you would be contradicting yourself.  Which you certainly do  in your next sentence when you say..."I do have the right to object to the way the Petrine ministry is exercised, especially as concerns the Curia.  How can you object to the way the Petrine ministry is exercised if you believe it is run by an infallible human being?

Orthodoc writes:  "Didn't you proclaim in another post that your  identity originated with an Empress Maria?"

Fr Deacon replies:  I said she coined the name Greek Catholic.  Our identity orignated with SS. Cyril and Methodius.

Orthodoc responds:  We both seem to be mixing apples and oranges here.  This thread started out  when you posted an article  by Father Taft concerning the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and a Patriarchate.

Since you and I seem to come from the same ethnic background.  And both of us  recognize our ancestors  became Christians through the missionary efforts of Sts Cyril and Methodius,  we can both agree that they were christians over a century before the Ukrainians.  So maybe we should either stick to the Ukrainian Catholic Church and you can open up another thread called "What's in a Name"  and we can discuss the fact that while you profess belief in, and loyality to,  PAPAL SUPREMACY, PAPAL INFALLIBILITY, PAPAL DOCTRINES, DOGMA, AND CANONS  you get so insulted whenever anyone identifies you as  part of this particular church.  I think thats a separate issue in itself.

Orthodoc writes:  "What would you have preferred?"

Father Deacon replies:  That the MP din't collaborate with Soviets and celebrated Liturgy in the woods with us.  Most of our people did not go to the Orthodox for the sacraments, but risked their freedom to receive from their own priests in the woods.

Orthodoc responds:  HUH?  In your first sentence you state that you would have perferred that the MP would have celebrated Liturgy in the woods with you.  Then you state that most of the UGC's  perferred going to the woods rather than go to the Orthodox for the Sacraments [which I consider as a MASS EXAGGERATION and don't believe for a minute].

If the majority of Ukrainian Greek Catholics perferred the woods to worshipping in a building with Orthodox present and an Orthodox priest officiating,  why would you prefer these same people in the woods standing next to you?  Their suffering had been already going on for 29 years.

Once again it's all the way you look at things.  In 1946 Stalin gave the ROC (who had already suffered 29 years of the worst persecution of any religion, two choices which were - 1) Either accept the UGC's into your fold;  or 2) Suffer increased persecution.  If the situation was reversed what do you think the UGCC would have done?  The ROC church made the only sensible option there was.  And that was to accept the UGC's back into her fold and thus save itself from increased persecution and provide a continued sacramental life for the UGC's.  If some UGC's were so full of hatred they preferred to risk their lives in the woods rather than receive the Sacraments from an Orthdox priest that is on them.  

You seem to be telling me that you would have perferred if  the RO Hierachs did the same thing the hand picked UO hierachs did in 1596 and turned their backs on their separated children.

Father Deacon writes:  Well according to you those that didn't accept the unia were thrown in prison or harrassed.  Our people didn't see this and know why?  They didn't realize that Polish Latin priests were invited to processions and other services?

Orthodoc responds:  They initially saw it as persecution of the Orthodox Church.  Thats why the Cossacks united.  Especially  the Zaporozhie which became the defenders of Orthodoxy.  Once the union was signed it didn't take the Jesuits long to come in and establish schools for the gentry.  It was then that the latinization and the creation of the UGC began.  Rent the movie 'Taras Bulba' from the fifties which tells the story quite well.  The movie starts out where the Poles and the Cossacks fight together to defeat the Tatars  in the steepes.  After the Tartars are driven out the Poles turn their swords on the Cossacks and defeat them and take over what is now known as Ukraine.  The Cossacks go back to their villages and remain loyal to the Orthodox Church.  The chief of the Zaporozhe (Yul Brenner has two sons born to him & his wife).  He raises them as young Cossacks.  When they become of school age he decides to send them to one of the Jesuit schools that were now all over the country.  Because, according to him, the only way to defeat the Pole was to pretend to become one of them by attending their schools and pretending to adopt their religion (which by now was the Unia in Ukrainian territory).  Only that way could they learn the strengths and weaknesses enough to defeat them.  However, one son, Tony Curtis, falls in love with the Polish governors daughter.  He turns his back on both his country and faith and accepts the Roman Catholic faith when he marries her.
At this point, Yul Brenner cals all the various Cossack Clans which come from all parts of Ukraine to fight the Poles and their cursed religion out of Ukraine.  Rent the movie for the ending.

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« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2004, 06:54:21 PM »

Orthodoc,

"How can you object to the way the Petrine ministry is exercised if you believe it is run by an infallible human being?"

First the Pope is not an infallible human being anymore than the Fathers of an Ecumenical Council are.  Catholics believe that the Pope can exercise infallibility the same way a Council does, that is inspired by the Holy Spirit.  However, Catholics also believe this charism is limited to Faith and Morals.  Administrative, jurisdictional, even ritual matters (all ,often handled by the Curia) can be objected to, some would even say that disobedience would be allowed if the case were serious enough.

Good example:  The Polish Latin bishops decided they didn't like all the Married Ukrainian priests in Poland and protested to Rome.  The Cardinal Secretary of State said the married priests should return to Ukraine.  However, the priests were Polish not Ukrainian citizens so could not go even if they wanted too, which they did not.  The Ukrainian Metropolitan ignored the order, which was beyond the competence of the Cardinal anyway, and deferred the matter to Lviv.  Patriarch Lubomyr, who was acting administrator, told the Cardinal forget it.  Another Cardianl informed the Pope of what was going on and the Pope called Cardinal Sodano in and reprimanded him.

" Then you state that most of the UGC's  perferred going to the woods rather than go to the Orthodox for the Sacraments [which I consider as a MASS EXAGGERATION and don't believe for a minute]."

To be honest I don't know where you got the idea that the Greek Catholics just went to the Orthodox Church.  I thought it was common knowledge they had secret Liturgies in the woods and in attics and basements as did the UAOC.  See this article:

07/21/2001 LISA HEBERT The Dallas Morning News

St. Sophia Ukrainian Catholic Church may be small in numbers, but it's big in spirit. The 148-member parish opened its doors Aug 3, 2000, and has worked hard ever since.

Its building in The Colony, which once belonged to a Baptist church, had to be renovated. For months, parishioners painted, laid carpet and tile, and created a comfortable living space for their pastor and his family. Age and health factors that might have stopped others didn't stop them.

Even two heart bypass operations were no hindrance to Dr. Theodore Trusevich.

"I climbed up on the roof of the church at 75 years old to paint the cross and the surrounding area," he said. "I had not set foot in a Ukrainian Catholic Church in over 27 years, and I felt exuberant."

These believers are proud of their little church because they remember what it's like not to be able to practice their faith openly. That was their experience in Ukraine during the decades of Communist rule.

In 1946, the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin turned over Ukrainian Catholic property to the Orthodox Church. A later ban on the Ukrainian Catholic Church forced priests and laity underground.

Among them was St. Sophia's pastor, the Rev. Vasyl Savchyn. The 48-year-old priest escaped persecution by following his vocation in secret.

"I worked a government job legally during the day," he said,” but clandestinely at night, we would disguise ourselves as women, and people would take me to their homes to perform weddings and funerals."

Some fellow priests were caught and sent to work camps.

"I corresponded with many of my friends who were sent away to Siberia," he said. "The KGB would often come to my house and turn over mattresses and other possessions to look for any type of religious paraphernalia."

Parishioners have similar stories. Marta Vaughn, who's 41, said that for most of her life she was deprived of freedom to learn about her Catholic faith. "I was not allowed to go to church when I lived in Ukraine," she said. "I was a teacher, and we were supposed to spread Communist ideologies to our students. I would have lost my job."





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« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2004, 09:07:51 PM »


Father Deacon Lance:

I never said, nor do I disbelieve, that there were secret Liturgies said in woods, attics, basements, etc.  But I do doubt that  the VAST MAJORITY of Ukrainian Greek Catholics forsook completely worshipping in Churches that were now under Orthodox control to worship in secret.

I can tell you similiar stories of Orthodox who worshipped in secret  not only in Russia & Ukraine, but Albania, Romania, Belorus,  Poland, Slovakia, etc.

One beautiful story from Albania which was the first completely athiest country.  When the people heard there was to be a Liturgy broadcast over  radio stations like RFE someone would bake the Phrospora.  They would gather together around the radio to listen to the Liturgy where they would place the Phrospora and wine on top of the radio.  When the Liturgy was finished they would partake of the elements which they believed God had consecrated.

How about that?  Albania had no Churches to worship in because the communist government closed them.  Isn't that what Stalin had threatened to do in Ukraine to the Greek Catholic Churches if the ROC wouldn't accept them?

What I do object to, is you, as well as others, who come into Orthodox websites to complain about how much your church suffered and blame it all on the compliance of the Russian Orthodox Church.  If you are going to cry and complain about communist aggression and persecution of the Churches, then cry for ALL THE CHURCHES.  Including the church that suffered from the first day of the revolution and therefore the longest - the Russian Orthodox Church.  

I also object to people who come into Orthodox websites and post articles or complain about what happened in 1946 and try and either justify or condone  what happened in 1596 which created the UGCC in the first place.

The fact of the matter is that the very creation of the UGCC by Rome was as an aggressive move to undermine the Orthodox Church, by using politics,  deceit, dishonesty,  pressure, and every devious method available to try and incorporate  it into the Roman Catholic Church.

I can also post stories about how the Orthodox are being treated in the heart of the UGCC in western Ukraine, while a big new headquarters & Cathedral is being built in Kiev which is the hearland of Orthodoxy in Ukraine.  One story in the New York times comes to mind.  It tells about a group of Orthodox
who have to worship in a railroad car because their church was taken over by force by Ukrainian Greek Catholics.  When the people petitioned for a permit to build a new church they were given a permit to build on a garbage dump because they were told that is the only place an Orthodox Church belongs.

Moral I'm trying to make -

1)  If you complain about happened in 1946 be honest enough to also complain what happened in 1596.

2)  If you are going to complain about what was done to Greek Catholics by the communists, at least acknowledge the same things were being done on a much larger scale and for a longer period of time to the Orthodox Christians.

3)  If you are going to post news releases  regarding agressive actions towards UGC's also post equal horror stories at what has been done to Orthodox by UGC's.

I just find your attitude too one sided.  And my posts have been an attempt to balance things out a bit.

People who are being persecuted will find ways of practicing their faith in secret.  Not only in Ukraine by UGC's but in Russia by devout Orthodox Christians who were able to maintain the faith right under the communists noses.  

Examples:

1) A couple was married in the marriage palace  because it was  the only recognized marriage by the government.  After the ceremony was completed they would give the rings to Baba.  Baba would take the rings to the priest  who would perform the wedding ceremony over the rings, Bless them, and return them to Baba to give back to the couple.  That's how the reconciled a secular ceremony with a religious ceremony.

2)  After a communist funeral, Baba would take a jar of dirt from the grave and take it to the priest who would perform the funeral service and Bless it.  Baba would then take the jar of dirt back to the grave and sprinkle it back over the grave.

They are but just two stories.  

When people like you come in here with a more balanced concept of religious persecution under communism I will cease in giving my two cents worth.

Until then my big mouth and stubby fingers will continue to work overtime defending my faith!

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« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2004, 10:14:45 PM »

Orthodoc,

I am onesided?  I never claimed the Russian Orthodox Church did not suffer.  In fact my complaint, and have made this clear, is not with the Russian Orthodox Church, but with the administration of the MP who seem unable to accept that the UGCC has a right to exist and evangelize as it sees fit.  

I am not balanced?  In this very thread I posted an article about a kindness done by a Russian Orthodox Church-MP parish.  I do not deny their is goodness and holiness in my Orthodox brethren.  I have yet to see you write or post anything other than derogatory comments and snide remarks about anything Greek Catholic.  I think I have presented a balanced arguement.  But we have done the rounds on this before.  We are never going to agree so I think it best we agree to disagree, bid each other peace and remember each other in our prayers  

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« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2004, 10:15:50 PM »

Orthodoc,

I am onesided?  I never claimed the Russian Orthodox Church did not suffer.  In fact my complaint, and have made this clear, is not with the Russian Orthodox Church, but with the administration of the MP who seem unable to accept that the UGCC has a right to exist and evangelize as it sees fit.  

I am not balanced?  In this very thread I posted an article about a kindness done by a Russian Orthodox Church-MP parish.  I do not deny their is goodness and holiness in my Orthodox brethren.  I have yet to see you write or post anything other than derogatory comments and snide remarks about anything Greek Catholic.  I think I have presented a balanced arguement.  But we have done the rounds on this before.  We are never going to agree so I think it best we agree to disagree, bid each other peace and remember each other in our prayers  

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« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2004, 12:21:16 PM »

Then Evangelize your own unchurched people. Don't go taking Sheep from orthodox Ukraine
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« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2004, 12:27:53 PM »

sdcheung,

With your attitude and logic, the Orthodox should get their collective rear out of the United States and the rest of the Americas, so the Romans can evangelize their "own unchurched people".

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« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2004, 12:42:28 PM »

Oh Gee ...
America is Neutral land my dear.
There is enough sheep here for both.

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« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2004, 12:43:53 PM »

See, that's what I believe, but by your reckoning, there should be no Orthodox in Mexico and the American Southwest, which is as traditionally Roman Catholic as Ukraine is Orthodox.

Yet there are a number of Orthodox churches in these regions.
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« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2004, 12:44:58 PM »

...I'd be happy to see the reach of the Catholic church reduced to the vatican though..hehehehe
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« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2004, 05:52:00 PM »

SD,

Part of the assertation of Archimandrite Robert is that Eastern Ukraine is largely unevangelized despite claims to the contrary.  If this is true, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, the MP isn't doing its job.  If this is the case the UGCC has not only the right but the responsibility to take the gospel to those who don't have it.  It seems the MP would rather Eastern Ukraine have no Gospel at all if it the alternative is that the UGCC is take it there.

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« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2004, 01:36:55 AM »

Fr Deacon Lance writes:

[Part of the assertation of Archimandrite Robert is that Eastern Ukraine is largely unevangelized despite claims to the contrary.  If this is true, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, the MP isn't doing its job.  If this is the case the UGCC has not only the right but the responsibility to take the gospel to those who don't have it. ]

Reply:

So now we have the Vatican propaganda machines working over time now the the UGCC is in the processes of moving its headquarters hundreds of miles from the majority of its people into the heart of Orthodoxy.  To prepare for the proseltyzation of the Orthodox.

We are now expected to believe that the vast majority of religious people are located in western Ukraine and are members of the UGCC.  While in the east, where the vast majority of Orthodox Churches are located,  are empty and devoid of people and need UGC evangelization..  All the new Orthodox Churches being built in those areas, including the largest Church structure in Ukraine, are just show places.

How pathetic when people begin to believe their own propaganda!  But then again, the same group of people who are gullible enough to believe this... are also gullible enough to believe that one can be 'in communion with Rome' and not be either part of the Roman Catholic Church or under its ultimate authority.  Go figure!

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« Reply #74 on: February 17, 2004, 09:15:03 AM »

Orthodoc,

If you knew Archimandrite Robert you would know he is as critical of the Vatican and the Eastern Catholic Churches as he is anyone else.  If ECs are fudging the numbers he calls them on the carpet too.  He is not interested in propaganda but the truth.

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« Reply #75 on: February 17, 2004, 11:16:26 AM »

Fr Deacon Lance writes:  

[If you knew Archimandrite Robert you would know he is as critical of the Vatican and the Eastern Catholic Churches as he is anyone else.  If ECs are fudging the numbers he calls them on the carpet too.  He is not interested in propaganda but the truth.]

Orthodoc replies:

Yeh right!  Then perhaps he can explain the latest religious statistics from RISU  (Religious Information Service of Ukraine)  which happens to be a religious project of the UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC CHURCH!

As of January 2, 2002 -


UOC-MP  statistics -

Communities:  9423 (with 92 more unregistered)
Priests :  7995
Churches:  8305 with 930 under construction
Monasteries:  131
Monks & Nuns:  3727
Missions: 3
Seminaries:  15
Seminarians:  1805  (with 2360 more correspondence part time students)
Sunday Schools:  3076

UOC-KP statistics -

Communities:  3010 (with 40 more unregistered)
Priests:  2443
Churches:  2115 (with 267 under construction)
Monasteries:  28
Monks & Nuns:  131
Missions:  22
Seminaries:  15
Seminarians:  1177 (with 404 more correspondence partime students)
Sunday Schools:  823

UOAOC -

Communities:  1052 (with 3  more unregistered)
Priests:  653
Churches:  697 (97 under construction)
Monasteries:  3
Monks & Nuns:  0
Missions:  6
Seminaries:  8
Seminarians:  205 (with 80 more correspondence parttime students)
Sunday Schools:  244
 
UGCC  statistics -

Communities:  3289 (with 47 more unregistered)
Priests:  1944
Churches:  2665 (with 305 under construction)
Monasteries:  86
Monks & Nuns:  1123
Missions:  9
Seminaries:  13
Seminarians:  1166 (with 40 more crrespondence part timers)
Sunday Schools:  735

=========

Comparisons:

Total Orthodox Communities:  13485  (with 135 more unregistered)
Total UGC Communities:  3289 (with  47 more unregistered)

Total Orthodox Priests:  11091
Total UGC Priests:  1944

Total Orthodox Churches:  11117 (with 256 more under construction)
Total UGC Churches:  2665 (with 305 under construction)

Total Orthodox Monasteries:  162
Total UGC Monasteries:  86

Total  Orthodox Monks & Nuns:  3858
Total UGC Monks & Nuns:  1123

Total Orthodox Missions:  31
Total UGC Missions:  9

Total Orthodox Seminaries:  38
Total UGC Seminaries:  13

Total Orthodox Seminarians:  3187  (with 2844 more in correspondence)
Total UGC Seminarians:  1166 (with 40 more in correspondence)

Total Orthodox Sunday Schools:  4143
Total UGC Sunday Schools:  735


So Father Deacon Lance, in case you are not following me....What I did was go in and use the latest religious statistics complied by YOUR OWN PEOPLE (the Ukrainian Catholic University) to prove Father Taft a liar!  You can access them yourself at - http://www.risu.org.ua/

The Orthodox Catholic church has not only more churches but more priests, monks, nuns, seminaries, seminarians, and sunday schools than the UGC.  In fact the UOC-MP itself has more of the above listings!


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« Reply #76 on: February 17, 2004, 01:05:58 PM »

Orthodoc,

I was following you.  If you were more careful in your research you would see that the statistics reported by RISU were compiled by the Ukrainian Government and that Archimandrite Robert's whole contention is that the statistics are inaccurate and do not reflect the reality of the situation.  Is the Archimandrite, who has been there and seen the situation first hand, to be called a liar because what he reports doesn't match your fantasy or just because he is Catholic?  Over at byzcath others who have traveled to Ukraine have offered the same information so it is not just one person reporting this.

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« Reply #77 on: February 17, 2004, 01:37:30 PM »


Fr Deacon Lance writes:

[If you were more careful in your research you would see that the statistics reported by RISU were compiled by the Ukrainian Government and that Archimandrite Robert's whole contention is that the statistics are inaccurate and do not reflect the reality of the situation.]

If the statistics were compliled by the Ukrainian government and inaccurate as you, and Fr Taft claim, then why even bother to post them on a Ukrianian Catholic University website?

Since both churches and priests etc. have to be registered with the government,  it would seem they would be much more accurate and reliable than a few persons that made a quick drive through Ukraine who only see what they want to see rather than what is actually there.

In one of your previous posts you insinuated if the UOC_MP is unable to bring the Gospel to the Ukrainians then the UGC's would have to.  Yet the statistics reveal that the UOC-MP alone has  3 1/2 times the amount of Sunday Schools  the UGCC has.  Combine the Sunday Schools of the other two Orthodox groups and it becomes  almost 5 1/2 times more.

Compare the amount of students studying religion and you will see that the UOC-MP alone has almost four times the amount of students the UGCC has.  Add the statistics from the other two Orthodox jurisdictions and it comes to five times the amount of students the UGCC has.  And all of them coming from all those EMPTY Orthodox Churches Fr Taft and your ilks on the 'other' board claim they have seen!

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« Reply #78 on: February 17, 2004, 01:46:15 PM »

Orthodoc,

Again your research is faulty.  The Ukrainian Government no longer requires registration, that holdover from the Soviet Communists.  

I am a government employee and let me share a secret with you, government stats are usually inaccurate either because of incompetence or direct manipulation.  I see the stats and I see the people.  I'll take first hand accounts over government statistics anyday.

If believing those stats make you feel better be my guest, but next time you go to Ukraine stop in a parish in Eastern Ukraine and see if the congregation matches the stats.

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« Reply #79 on: February 17, 2004, 02:00:03 PM »



Fr Deacon Lance:

We will let the people who are reading this judge for themselves.

If they would rather take the statistics you say are compiled by the Ukrainian government (which is no real friend of the UOC-MP) and are printed, of all places, in a Ukrainian Catholic University website.

Or the word of a priest of the  Eastern Rite  with an agenda who resides, not in Ukraine, but the Vatican.  And of course, the comments of a few anti Orthodox  nationalist Ukies who spent a few days in Ukraine last summer or whenever.

By the way you haven't answered my question on where all these Orthodox students are coming from if all the churches are empty.

And, religious communities still have to be registered with the government.  If for nothing else, tax purposes.  Notice all the statistics for 'communities' lists both the registered and unregistered communities.

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« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2004, 03:13:05 PM »

Orthodoc,

The peopel will indeed judge.

Your anti-Catholic bias shows itself again.  Because Archimandrite Robert is Catholic and you don't like what he says he must have an agenda.  The always innocent MP couldn't possibly have an agenda as well could it?

"By the way you haven't answered my question on where all these Orthodox students are coming from if all the churches are empty."

I did answer your question, I think the stats are worthless, I don't believe they have anywhere near any of the stats claimed other than church buildings.

"And, religious communities still have to be registered with the government."

Not according to the site whose statistics you are relying on.

http://www.risu.org.ua/content.php?page_id=101&l=en

"Note 1: The first figure denotes communities whose statutes are fully registered according to legal requirements; the second figure denotes communities which operate without registration, which is allowed according to Ukrainian legislation."

Fr. Deacon Lance

 

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« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2004, 03:32:39 PM »

Fr Deacon Lance write:

>"Note 1: The first figure denotes communities whose statutes are fully
>registered according to legal requirements; the second figure denotes communities
>which operate without registration, which is allowed according to Ukrainian
>legislation."


WHAT IS YOUR POINT?  The above backs up what I have been saying all along.  In case you missed it the buss words are ....REGISTERED ACCORDING TO LEGAL REQUIREMENTS.  Are you trying to convince us that the vast majority of UGC churches are unregistered?  

If you believe that there a bridge in Brooklyn I's like to sell you!

Give it up already.  You are strating to look ridiculous.

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« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2004, 03:50:51 PM »

Orthodoc,

You stated that all parishes and priests had to be registered.  The website clearly states:

the second figure denotes communities which operate without registration, which is allowed according to Ukrainian legislation."

Which refutes your contention that ALL parishes are registered.  I never said who was or wasn't registered, simply that your statement that they had to be was false according to the website you are referencing.  Either you are obtuse or are purposely trying to deceive.

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« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2004, 04:05:32 PM »



Father Deacon Lance writes:

[the second figure denotes communities which operate without registration, which is allowed according to Ukrainian legislation."
Which refutes your contention that ALL parishes are registered.]

And, since both registered and unregistered are listed in the statistics....That changes the statistics HOW?  Unless you are claiming that the majority of UGC communities are unregistered and the count of unregistered communities is inaccurate.

Can you substantiate that claim other than 'Because Fr Taft and a few posters from the 'other' Forum said so?'  

We can go around and around on this but the facts remain the same -

1)  The statistics were supposedly compiled by the Ukrainian government.

2)  The statistics were published on a Ukrainian Catholic website as accurate.

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« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2004, 04:22:08 PM »

Orthodoc,

First  I don't care about the statistics and I have made that abundantly clear.  If you want to run around waving a page of statisticss have at it.

The facts are the stats are compiled by the Ukrainian Governement and they are displayed on RISU's site.  For some reason you want to question who compiled the stats by placing supposedly in your sentence and then the next sentence you slip in accurate, when now statement of accuracy was claimed by the site.

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« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2004, 01:04:44 AM »

[For some reason you want to question who compiled the stats by placing supposedly in your sentence and then the next sentence you slip in accurate, when now statement of accuracy was claimed by the site.
Fr. Deacon Lance]

Fr Deacon Lance:  You and I can go round and round on this isuue.  And you can go on nit picking on a word I use to try and discredit my rplies.  But the fact is, and remains, that they were compiled by the Ukrainian government and are posted on a Ukrainian Catholic web site.  If you don't agree with them I would suggest you take it up with the Ukrainan Catholic University that postd them on their web site.  And, if you think they are wrong then give is some more evidence besides 'I don't agree', 'Fr Taft says so',  or someone who visited Ukraine also disagrees with them.  

If you  expect to be taken seriously ya gotta come up with some better replies than nit picking on my use of 'all' and 'supposedly', etc.

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« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2004, 01:46:01 AM »

Orthodoc,

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2001/5708.htm

Okay, how about this report from the State Department which states that 40% of Ukrainians describe themselves as atheists and that the practice of religion is strongest in Western Ukraine.

A county of 50 million.  40% atheist is 20 million.  Sounds like a lot of empty Churches in Eastern Ukraine and a lot of people that need to hear the Gospel.

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« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2004, 02:48:41 AM »

Orthodoc,

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2001/5708.htm

Okay, how about this report from the State Department which states that 40% of Ukrainians describe themselves as atheists and that the practice of religion is strongest in Western Ukraine.

A county of 50 million.  40% atheist is 20 million.  Sounds like a lot of empty Churches in Eastern Ukraine and a lot of people that need to hear the Gospel.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Fr. Deacon Lance,
With respect, this thread is going from the sublime to the ridiculous. You are attempting to interpolate from this report's conclusions as if these conclusions were 'raw data'. No statistician would do that.
I could just as easily extract from that same report,
Quote
"Legalized in 1989 the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church's 3,317 registered communities serve a majority of believers in western Ukraine, about 10 per cent nationwide, or about 4.5 to 5 million persons. The head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is Lyubomyr Cardinal Huzar, Major Archbishop of Lviv."
and maintain this rebutts your contention and make 'my' contention look valid. Neither would correctly interpreted, however.

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« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2004, 09:26:36 AM »

Demetri,

I fail to understand your claim.  I presented what the report stated.  My only extrapolation was that 40% of 50 million is 20 million.  Orthodoc asked for substantiation of Archimandrite Robert's claims.  There it is in black and white from our State Department.  

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« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2004, 11:26:23 AM »

Finally Father Deacon Lance comes up with some statistics.  Lets look at, and analyze, what we are reading based on some excerpts from the report itself -

From the report:

Section I. Religious Demography

The country has a total area of 223,089 square miles, and its population is approximately 49.5 million. A June 2001, nationwide survey conducted by the research center Sociological Research (SOCIS) found that over 40 percent of citizens claimed that they were atheists. This statistic highlights the fact that a significant portion of the population who claim a denominational association may be only nominal believers. Religious practice is strongest in the western part of the country. The overwhelming majority (over 90 per cent) of religiously active citizens are Christian, with the majority of these being Orthodox. About 10 per cent of believers are members of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Roman Catholics claim 1 million adherents in the country, or about 2 percent of the total population. The country has small but significant populations of Jews and Moslems, as well as growing communities of Baptists, Adventists, evangelical Christians, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), and Jehovah's Witnesses.

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is the second largest faith in the country. This Church celebrates a Byzantine liturgy similar to the Orthodox but is in full communion with the Pope. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was forced to reunite with the Orthodox Church after the Second World War but survived in hiding in the country and in diaspora. Legalized in 1989 the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church's 3,317 registered communities serve a majority of believers in western Ukraine, about 10 per cent nationwide, or about 4.5 to 5 million persons. The head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is Lyubomyr Cardinal Huzar, Major Archbishop of Lviv.

=======

When reading the statistics I find it interesting that they state emphatically that 10% of the believers are UGC and one million are RC's but no further statistics on how many of the remaining believers are Orthodox and how many others belong to other religious institutions.  They just state that 90% of the remaining classify themselves as Christians with the vast majority claiming to be Orthodox.  So, lets go on that premise.

Now, lets breakdown what is stated -

Total Number of Ukrainians = 49,500,000

Based on the 40%  that claim to be athiests we get the following breakdown -

Believers =  29,700,000
Athiests  =  19,800,000
UGC's      =     2,970,000 (based on the 10% specified)
Orthodox & other Christians  =   26,730,000  (based on the 90%  Christians specified. Of which the majority are Orthodox)    


If 10% of the believers are UGC's then that would make 2,970,000 of the believers as members of the UGCC.  Yet further down in the statistical information we read -

 "Legalized in 1989 the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church's 3,317 registered communities serve a majority of believers in western Ukraine, about 10 per cent nationwide, or about 4.5 to 5 million persons. The head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is Lyubomyr Cardinal Huzar, Major Archbishop of Lviv."

Where does the 4.5 to 5 million UGC's come from?  You can only get that total if you take 10% of the entire population of Ukraine which includes, according to the statistics,  the 40%  of those who claim they are athiests!   Does this mean that 1/3 to almost 1/2 of the people the survey who claim they are UGC's also  classify themselves as athiests?

Also, if the vast majority of believers 29,700,000 are located in western Ukraine as is implied.  And 2,970,000 are members  of the UGCC, then the vast majority of believers in western Ukraine must be Orthodox  (based on the following comment contained in the survey itself  -

[According to information from the Religious Information of Ukraine, most citizens identify themselves as Orthodox Christians of one of three churches. And...According to information from the Religious Information of Ukraine, most citizens identify themselves as Orthodox Christians of one of three churches.]

Or a combination of Orthodox and Christians from 'other' denominations rather than UGC's as what is being claimed..


Orthodoc





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