Author Topic: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?  (Read 9656 times)

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Offline hema1999

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Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« on: July 13, 2010, 09:04:58 AM »
if so, does this encompass all the orthodox denominations - like greek / byzantine, russian, armenian, ethiopian etc.? in which country do we see christmas celebrated on a wide scale on 7th January? is it a national holiday?

do you guys have christmas lights and christmas tree and family dinners / parties too? and shopping? what do you guys do?
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 09:21:23 AM by FrChris »

Offline AWR

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2010, 09:27:47 AM »
Some do some don't.

In recent times, many Orthodox Churches changed to the "New" calendar, but quite a lot still use the "old" calendar. I believe Russia and the like use the old calendar.

Orthodox celebrate the season starting with a 40 day fasting season that most folks sort of ease into (not as strict as lent for most people, so many do have lights and festive decorations)    

But the real festive time is from the nativity to Epiphany.  sort of like the 12 days of Christmas.  
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 09:36:51 AM by AWR »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2010, 09:51:07 AM »
All Eastern Orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25. It just depends if it's December 25 on the Julian or Gregorian calendars.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 11:15:16 AM »
Some countries are split. I had a Polish friend who is Catholic but she said in Western Poland ( I hope I have that correct) there are many Orthodox. She said she was used to celebrating both times. Once with her family and then later along with her Orthodox friends.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline mike

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2010, 07:05:44 AM »
Some countries are split. I had a Polish friend who is Catholic but she said in Western Poland ( I hope I have that correct) there are many Orthodox. She said she was used to celebrating both times. Once with her family and then later along with her Orthodox friends.

You have not :P Eastern Poland :)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 11:00:12 AM »
Some countries are split. I had a Polish friend who is Catholic but she said in Western Poland ( I hope I have that correct) there are many Orthodox. She said she was used to celebrating both times. Once with her family and then later along with her Orthodox friends.

You have not :P Eastern Poland :)

Got it.. I meant the portion of Poland closest to Ukraine and Russia etc.

I get East and West mixed up after a point around the Globe. My son is in China. At some point he stopped traveling West and it was East again.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 10:15:30 PM »
I believe that's just a Russian Old Calender thing.  I can remember my Atheist reading teacher in elementary school.  she told us that one reason Christianity doesn't make sence is because the bible gives evidence that Christ wasn't born in december.  well  :P  the Russians believe differently.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 10:23:28 PM »
I believe that's just a Russian Old Calender thing.  I can remember my Atheist reading teacher in elementary school.  she told us that one reason Christianity doesn't make sence is because the bible gives evidence that Christ wasn't born in december.  well  :P  the Russians believe differently.

It's misunderstanding like this that makes me think the New Calendarists might have a point.

Offline Sloga

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2010, 12:16:42 AM »
two things need to be noted;

1- churches that do now go by the gregorian calendar (Dec 25), have smaller offshoots that still celebrate on January 7th (for example, the Greek Old Calenderists).

2- correct me if I'm wrong, but as it is pointed out, we (the Serbian Orthodox Church I belong to being one of the many that do) celebrate on January 7th but it is obviously viewed as Dec 25 on the Julian calendar. Now, I believe I am correct to say that even that date is not written in stone, since the very issue of switching calendars had something to do with the leap year, and thus, the January 7th date will eventually move to January 8th, as (I believe) it has done since moving to Dec 26th and so on. It is possible that one day, not in the near future, we will be celebrating it in August, and likewise, on Dec 25th once again. This is from my highschool understanding but if I am wrong feel free somebody to correct.
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Offline Maj

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2010, 09:02:43 AM »
Yup, sometime in 2100 there will be a 14 day difference, so it will take a while to celebrate nativity in August.  :)

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2010, 09:46:15 AM »
I think most people intuitively know that when December 25th in the Church calendar actually falls on the Winter Solstice, it is not some day in January but the actual December 25th, which is so indicated on the Gregorian and Revised Julian calendars. But not on the Julian calendar, which boldly proclaims that it is December 12th. You know I really admire the tenacity of those who adhere to the Old Calendar.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2010, 06:28:28 PM »
Some do. But not all do. With respect to the civil calendar, most celebrate either on January 7th or the standard December 25th. The Armenians, on the other hand, celebrate it either on January 6th (new rendering) or January 19th (old rendering).
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2010, 02:53:15 AM »
Yes. In the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, we celebrate Christmas on January 7.



Selam
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2010, 07:47:25 AM »
Yes. In the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, we celebrate Christmas on January 7.



Selam
Is that the actual date of the Feast, or the equivalent on the Gregorian calendar?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2010, 06:43:07 PM »
Yes. In the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, we celebrate Christmas on January 7.



Selam
Is that the actual date of the Feast, or the equivalent on the Gregorian calendar?

The "actual date" of the Feast is Tahisas 29 on the Ethiopian calendar, which, as far as I know, is essentially the same as the Coptic calendar where it is Choiak 29. This translates to December 25 on the Old Julian Calendar and January 7 on the Revised Julian and Gregrorian calendars.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2010, 07:14:36 PM »
I think most people intuitively know that when December 25th in the Church calendar actually falls on the Winter Solstice, it is not some day in January but the actual December 25th, which is so indicated on the Gregorian and Revised Julian calendars. But not on the Julian calendar, which boldly proclaims that it is December 12th. You know I really admire the tenacity of those who adhere to the Old Calendar.

Yes, the tenacity of the majority of Orthodox Christians throughout the world.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2010, 09:12:33 PM »
Yes. In the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, we celebrate Christmas on January 7.



Selam
Is that the actual date of the Feast, or the equivalent on the Gregorian calendar?

The "actual date" of the Feast is Tahisas 29 on the Ethiopian calendar, which, as far as I know, is essentially the same as the Coptic calendar where it is Choiak 29. This translates to December 25 on the Old Julian Calendar and January 7 on the Revised Julian and Gregrorian calendars.
Interesting info. Thank you.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2010, 08:05:51 PM »
Yes. In the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, we celebrate Christmas on January 7.



Selam
Is that the actual date of the Feast, or the equivalent on the Gregorian calendar?

The "actual date" of the Feast is Tahisas 29 on the Ethiopian calendar, which, as far as I know, is essentially the same as the Coptic calendar where it is Choiak 29. This translates to December 25 on the Old Julian Calendar and January 7 on the Revised Julian and Gregrorian calendars.
Interesting info. Thank you.

Sure!
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Offline thetraditionalfrog

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2010, 12:26:49 PM »
All Orthodox, celebrate Christmas on 25 December, the date differential is simply a matter of which calendar (Julian or revisied Julian).

Christmas is generally preceeded by a fasting period. This period is more relaxed than Great Lent, but some are still fairly strict. As for "celebrating the season", it varies greatly from person to person family to family.

FWIW, my personal practise is to avoid most of the secular aspects and parties/dinners. I do however remember not to be pharisaical. I always strive to exercise Christian love and charity, especially in regard to non-Orthodox family and friends. When I do have to attend an event or dinner, I try and keep my visit short, and observe the fast without making a production of it. If absolutely necessary, I have a brief quiet word with the host ahead of time and offer to bring a fasting dish that everyone can share (thus not broadcasting it). I also do not decorate or put up a tree until Christmas Even or the day before if I am going to be away (very rare). The same goes for other decorations and Christmas music. If there are Christmas programmes on telly, I set my DVR to record and watch them over Christmas week. Again, this is my personal observance, as for what other Orthodox should do, YMMV.

This year will be different as I am in the process of moving in with relatives due to unfortunate circumstances. As these relatives are non-Orthodox and very into Christmas, I will have little say iin regard to music or decorations outside my personal bedroom. In there however, I will maintain my own tradition. Maybe if I am so blessed, I can convince them to keep their tree and decorations up through Orthodox Christmas.

On a personal note, I much prefer the German/Austrian custom of the Christ Child bringing the gifts Christmas Even, than the secular version of Saint Nicholas... Santa Claus. I also like the German/Austrian tradition surrounding St Nicholas and Krampus.




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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2010, 05:21:02 PM »
All Orthodox, celebrate Christmas on 25 December, the date differential is simply a matter of which calendar (Julian or revisied Julian).

Unless you are excluding the Orientals, as I pointed out, the Armenians actually celebrate Christmas on January 6th (with the same matter of date differential).
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Offline thetraditionalfrog

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2010, 07:31:44 PM »
Sorry about that, unintentional omission.... you are correct.  :)
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Offline Russell

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2010, 09:12:04 PM »
I visited my fiance (now wife) in Ukraine for the New Year holiday two years ago.  It was interesting, for me as the whole russian soceity seems to have moved many of the christmas traditions to New Years.   

No Christmas tree, It is a New Year tree and if you dont have room or the money for a whole tree you just use one branch in a pot.

Santa Claus comes on New years eve.  Presents are also on New years and it is not expected for everyone to bring gifts.

At midnight they had a family dinner.   There was a huge production on TV with a bunch of famous russian actors.

January 7th we celebrated christmas by going to the church, no liturgy just looked at a few icons and silent prayer.




I am new to orthodoxy so I am looking forward to seeing how it is done in our new church and maybe I can talk my wife into keeping the tree and santa claus on New Years, instead of christmas :)


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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2010, 10:27:05 PM »
I don't think there's anything at all secular about St. Nicholas bringing gifts. The story connecting him with chimneys and stockings is in his Life. Even Santa Claus is just a way of saying St. Nicholas. The red suit and flying reindeer were a later marketing gimmick. Just like with the Christian origins of Halloween, I think we need to be careful just what we throw out or avoid in our celebrations just because they were hijacked. The hijacking doesn't make the Christian meaning and history void. We should take back our heritage.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2010, 10:33:13 PM »
Sorry about that

That's alright! I don't find fault in Byzantine riters not knowing about such a peculiarity of one particular Oriental church.
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Offline marryyyy

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2010, 09:19:23 PM »
the coptic orthodox and the greek orthodox church celebrate christmas on the 7th of January
and that is the actual feast which in the coptic calendar is 29 Kiakh

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2010, 09:23:23 PM »
the coptic orthodox and the greek orthodox church celebrate christmas on the 7th of January
and that is the actual feast which in the coptic calendar is 29 Kiakh

Ah, no. The Greeks by and large do not celebrate Christmas on January 7th.
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Offline marryyyy

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2010, 09:35:09 PM »
well actually most greeks do celebrate it on the 7th of january

Offline Antonis

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2010, 10:57:37 PM »
Nope, only the Old Calendarists. From what I've heard, and experienced, we (mainstream Greek Orthodox) use the new calendar.

I would still rather use the old, personally.
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Offline stashko

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2010, 12:46:59 AM »
Don't the Jerusalem Greeks Celebrate Jan 7 as well....As we Serbs do....and the Russija as well ...Looove the old calendar ;D
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2010, 02:10:11 AM »
Don't the Jerusalem Greeks Celebrate Jan 7 as well....As we Serbs do....and the Russija as well ...Looove the old calendar ;D
You're on the wrong calendar, dude. Even those on the Old Calendar have enough sense to celebrate Christmas on December 25. ;)

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2010, 09:38:55 AM »
I'm really curious as to what Hema1999's deal was. What was he hoping to gain by posting ads? And Medicare.gov? What the heck?!

Offline AMM

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2010, 09:56:53 AM »
I think most people intuitively know that when December 25th in the Church calendar actually falls on the Winter Solstice, it is not some day in January but the actual December 25th, which is so indicated on the Gregorian and Revised Julian calendars. But not on the Julian calendar, which boldly proclaims that it is December 12th. You know I really admire the tenacity of those who adhere to the Old Calendar.

Similar arguments are made against the continued use of the Eastern Paschalion.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2010, 10:43:35 AM »
I think most people intuitively know that when December 25th in the Church calendar actually falls on the Winter Solstice, it is not some day in January but the actual December 25th, which is so indicated on the Gregorian and Revised Julian calendars. But not on the Julian calendar, which boldly proclaims that it is December 12th. You know I really admire the tenacity of those who adhere to the Old Calendar.

Similar arguments are made against the continued use of the Eastern Paschalion.

There would be no problems whatsoever (principally the Apostles' Fast) if everybody used one calendar. It is an obstinate, romantic attachment to the "old ways" that is holding us back from doing this thing the right way The right way is the Revised Julian calendar that aligns the man-made calendar with the Church calendar, which in turn was based on God's calendar. The folks and Churches who are using the Old Calendar are in noncompliance with God's calendar, Church calendar and, frankly, plain common sense. Look folks, this has nothing to do with the calendar per se; this is a fight about not being like to Roman Catholics, not being like any other heterodox, to distinguish ourselves and to perpetuate the "us versus them mentality." No theology, no ecclesiology, no Divine truth, just human vanity.

Offline AMM

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2010, 10:59:46 AM »
Quote
There would be no problems whatsoever (principally the Apostles' Fast) if everybody used one calendar.

For fixed feasts, but not the movable ones as I'm sure you're aware.  That is why I brought up the issue of the Eastern Paschalion, which retains all the inaccuracies of the Julian Calendar; which some (technically correctly) argue defeats the lettering of the canon in Nicaea I for how it should be calculated based on the vernal equinox.

Mabye Finland is right and everybody else is attached to their "old ways".

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2010, 11:11:18 AM »
I think most people intuitively know that when December 25th in the Church calendar actually falls on the Winter Solstice, it is not some day in January but the actual December 25th, which is so indicated on the Gregorian and Revised Julian calendars. But not on the Julian calendar, which boldly proclaims that it is December 12th. You know I really admire the tenacity of those who adhere to the Old Calendar.

Similar arguments are made against the continued use of the Eastern Paschalion.

There would be no problems whatsoever (principally the Apostles' Fast) if everybody used one calendar. It is an obstinate, romantic attachment to the "old ways" that is holding us back from doing this thing the right way The right way is the Revised Julian calendar that aligns the man-made calendar with the Church calendar, which in turn was based on God's calendar. The folks and Churches who are using the Old Calendar are in noncompliance with God's calendar, Church calendar and, frankly, plain common sense. Look folks, this has nothing to do with the calendar per se; this is a fight about not being like to Roman Catholics, not being like any other heterodox, to distinguish ourselves and to perpetuate the "us versus them mentality." No theology, no ecclesiology, no Divine truth, just human vanity.

I personally think a revision of the Orthodox calendar would make sense, though not necessarily the current revision. As AMM says, the incongruous use of the New Calendar with the old Paschalion is clunky. That said, your characterization of those who object to the New Calendar is simplistic and wrongheaded. The fact is, the New Calendar was pushed originally as a means of furthering union with the western Christians- it was a manifestation of what we might call today "bad ecumenism." Astronomical accuracy was not the motivation. Moreover, it was imposed unilaterally, without pan-Orthodox consent and without discussion. In Greece, state repression was used against those who objected. Whatever the merits of the New Calendar in itself, its promulgation was done in exactly the wrong way and this triumphalistic attitude that makes you laugh at those silly, backwards Old Calendarists only compounds the problem.

As it is, the New Calendar has been a disaster. Like the Nikonian reforms in Russia, it may have been a good idea but its implementation was ruinous. The best way to heal our Church is to recognize that the calendar change has done far more harm than good. The Old Calendar has drifted a little, but fears about eventually celebrating Christmas in the Summer, centuries from now, should be disregarded. Let's return to the Old Calendar, which the majority of Orthodox Christians still follow, and then, as a unified Church, deliberately, carefully revise the Calendar together, on our own terms, and without ramming anything down people's throats.  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 11:12:06 AM by Iconodule »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2010, 11:17:18 AM »
Quote
There would be no problems whatsoever (principally the Apostles' Fast) if everybody used one calendar.

For fixed feasts, but not the movable ones as I'm sure you're aware.  That is why I brought up the issue of the Eastern Paschalion, which retains all the inaccuracies of the Julian Calendar; which some (technically correctly) argue defeats the lettering of the canon in Nicaea I for how it should be calculated based on the vernal equinox.

Mabye Finland is right and everybody else is attached to their "old ways".

May be I am wrong (not an uncommon occurrence) but it was my impression that if the movable feasts were also based on the Revised Julian Calendar most of the problems would either go away or be much more amenable to change.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2010, 11:25:49 AM »
I think most people intuitively know that when December 25th in the Church calendar actually falls on the Winter Solstice, it is not some day in January but the actual December 25th, which is so indicated on the Gregorian and Revised Julian calendars. But not on the Julian calendar, which boldly proclaims that it is December 12th. You know I really admire the tenacity of those who adhere to the Old Calendar.

Similar arguments are made against the continued use of the Eastern Paschalion.

There would be no problems whatsoever (principally the Apostles' Fast) if everybody used one calendar. It is an obstinate, romantic attachment to the "old ways" that is holding us back from doing this thing the right way The right way is the Revised Julian calendar that aligns the man-made calendar with the Church calendar, which in turn was based on God's calendar. The folks and Churches who are using the Old Calendar are in noncompliance with God's calendar, Church calendar and, frankly, plain common sense. Look folks, this has nothing to do with the calendar per se; this is a fight about not being like to Roman Catholics, not being like any other heterodox, to distinguish ourselves and to perpetuate the "us versus them mentality." No theology, no ecclesiology, no Divine truth, just human vanity.

I personally think a revision of the Orthodox calendar would make sense, though not necessarily the current revision. As AMM says, the incongruous use of the New Calendar with the old Paschalion is clunky. That said, your characterization of those who object to the New Calendar is simplistic and wrongheaded. The fact is, the New Calendar was pushed originally as a means of furthering union with the western Christians- it was a manifestation of what we might call today "bad ecumenism." Astronomical accuracy was not the motivation. Moreover, it was imposed unilaterally, without pan-Orthodox consent and without discussion. In Greece, state repression was used against those who objected. Whatever the merits of the New Calendar in itself, its promulgation was done in exactly the wrong way and this triumphalistic attitude that makes you laugh at those silly, backwards Old Calendarists only compounds the problem.

As it is, the New Calendar has been a disaster. Like the Nikonian reforms in Russia, it may have been a good idea but its implementation was ruinous. The best way to heal our Church is to recognize that the calendar change has done far more harm than good. The Old Calendar has drifted a little, but fears about eventually celebrating Christmas in the Summer, centuries from now, should be disregarded. Let's return to the Old Calendar, which the majority of Orthodox Christians still follow, and then, as a unified Church, deliberately, carefully revise the Calendar together, on our own terms, and without ramming anything down people's throats.  

I agree that the process of how to reform the calendar was messed up, as were the Nikonian reforms. One factor may have been the changed relative power and influence of the Orthodox Churches at that time. For example, with Moscow under the thumb of the Bolsheviks, Constantinople may have welcomed the opportunity to lead for a change, particularly at a time when the Patriarch was no longer the etnarch for the empire. There was also a great deal of fear that this was being done to ease the way into union with Rome. But, this essentially proves my point, doesn't it? There really is no credible justification for the continuing use of the Julian calendar. Two wrongs do not make a right; therefore, rather than asking to go back to status quo, we should lovingly encourage all to use the Revised Julian.

Offline AMM

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2010, 11:29:57 AM »
May be I am wrong (not an uncommon occurrence) but it was my impression that if the movable feasts were also based on the Revised Julian Calendar most of the problems would either go away or be much more amenable to change.

Sure, if they were, but they're not.  That is with the exception of the Church of Finland which adopted the Gregorian Calendar for the both fixed feasts and the calculation of Pascha, and therefore the movable ones.  I think you need to consider that before you start pointing out that people who use the Julian for everything are just stuck in their old ways.

The current New Calendar scenario is actually the worst scenario in my opinion; since it calculates fixed feasts with one calendar and the movable with another.  I think one should either just stick to the Julian for everything, or adopt the Gregorian for everything as Finland did.

I am also using "Revised Julian" and "Gregorian" essentially interchangeably given there is almost no difference between the two.

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2010, 11:47:44 AM »
I agree that the process of how to reform the calendar was messed up, as were the Nikonian reforms. One factor may have been the changed relative power and influence of the Orthodox Churches at that time. For example, with Moscow under the thumb of the Bolsheviks, Constantinople may have welcomed the opportunity to lead for a change, particularly at a time when the Patriarch was no longer the etnarch for the empire.

If by "lead," you mean "dictate" for the entire Orthodox world. I faintly remember you railing against that before...

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There was also a great deal of fear that this was being done to ease the way into union with Rome. But, this essentially proves my point, doesn't it?

No. The fear was well-grounded. Have you read the Patriarchal Encyclical of 1920?

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There really is no credible justification for the continuing use of the Julian calendar.

There's a perfectly credible reason- Orthodox unity. Not rocking the boat. Not alienating our brethren. Celebrating our feasts at the same time, once again. The churches of Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, etc. have done nothing wrong in remaining on the calendar which they received from their fathers. It's the innovators who created disunity and rupture, and must account for themselves. For us New Calendarists to say, however "lovingly", "You should become like us," without acknowledging and repenting of the grave mistakes made, is just more of the same arrogance that has caused so much alienation.

And once again, the Revised Julian is a mess. Mixing the Gregorian calendar for fixed easts with the old Paschalion is goofy. The real romantics are those who expect the majority of Orthodox Christians to adopt this Frankenstein monster of a calendar.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 11:48:08 AM by Iconodule »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2010, 12:07:22 PM »
I agree that the process of how to reform the calendar was messed up, as were the Nikonian reforms. One factor may have been the changed relative power and influence of the Orthodox Churches at that time. For example, with Moscow under the thumb of the Bolsheviks, Constantinople may have welcomed the opportunity to lead for a change, particularly at a time when the Patriarch was no longer the etnarch for the empire.

If by "lead," you mean "dictate" for the entire Orthodox world. I faintly remember you railing against that before...

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There was also a great deal of fear that this was being done to ease the way into union with Rome. But, this essentially proves my point, doesn't it?

No. The fear was well-grounded. Have you read the Patriarchal Encyclical of 1920?

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There really is no credible justification for the continuing use of the Julian calendar.

The churches of Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, etc. have done nothing wrong in remaining on the calendar which they received from their fathers. It's the innovators who created disunity and rupture, and must account for themselves.

This is the crux of the problem: when any change from a current practice is looked as innovation, in the sense of something to be leery of and perhaps to reject out of hand. No matter what the facts are and how the argument is made, the response is "that's not Orthodox because that is not how we do it in my church, diocese, tribe or nation." This is the other side of the coin for us Orthodox; our inherent conservatism, which is indispensable, also has made some of us move past a reluctance to consider changes to a readiness to reject them out of hand.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2010, 12:13:06 PM »
I agree that the process of how to reform the calendar was messed up, as were the Nikonian reforms. One factor may have been the changed relative power and influence of the Orthodox Churches at that time. For example, with Moscow under the thumb of the Bolsheviks, Constantinople may have welcomed the opportunity to lead for a change, particularly at a time when the Patriarch was no longer the etnarch for the empire.

If by "lead," you mean "dictate" for the entire Orthodox world. I faintly remember you railing against that before...

Quote
There was also a great deal of fear that this was being done to ease the way into union with Rome. But, this essentially proves my point, doesn't it?

No. The fear was well-grounded. Have you read the Patriarchal Encyclical of 1920?

Quote
There really is no credible justification for the continuing use of the Julian calendar.

The churches of Russia, Serbia, Jerusalem, etc. have done nothing wrong in remaining on the calendar which they received from their fathers. It's the innovators who created disunity and rupture, and must account for themselves.

This is the crux of the problem: when any change from a current practice is looked as innovation, in the sense of something to be leery of and perhaps to reject out of hand. No matter what the facts are and how the argument is made, the response is "that's not Orthodox because that is not how we do it in my church, diocese, tribe or nation." This is the other side of the coin for us Orthodox; our inherent conservatism, which is indispensable, also has made some of us move past a reluctance to consider changes to a readiness to reject them out of hand.

Not out of hand. Have you read the Patriarchal Encyclical of 1920?

Not everything new is bad, but the onus of justifying it is on the innovators. The New Calendar innovators justified it with unOrthodox reasons, and implemented with unOrthodox methods.

Offline marryyyy

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2010, 06:59:18 PM »
honestly what are all of you on about this forum is about when orthodox christians such as us celebrate christmas ie 25th decemeber or 7th january

i know for a fact that all coptic orthodox christians celebrate christmas on the 7th of january for christmas day and 6th january for christmas eve
so do i

 :)

Offline marryyyy

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2010, 07:05:30 PM »
I'm really curious as to what Hema1999's deal was. What was he hoping to gain by posting ads? And Medicare.gov? What the heck?!

i don't know possibly trying to go off topic  ;) and digress us to replying to his ads  :D

Offline AMM

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2010, 09:59:50 PM »
This is the crux of the problem: when any change from a current practice is looked as innovation, in the sense of something to be leery of and perhaps to reject out of hand. No matter what the facts are and how the argument is made, the response is "that's not Orthodox because that is not how we do it in my church, diocese, tribe or nation." This is the other side of the coin for us Orthodox; our inherent conservatism, which is indispensable, also has made some of us move past a reluctance to consider changes to a readiness to reject them out of hand.

The calendar is a useful instrument of differentiation, and therefore I doubt will ever be modified or corrected.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2010, 10:39:43 PM »
well actually most greeks do celebrate it on the 7th of january

Trust me here, you don't know what you're talking about.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2010, 10:40:28 PM »
Don't the Jerusalem Greeks Celebrate Jan 7 as well....As we Serbs do....and the Russija as well ...Looove the old calendar ;D

Yeah, the Greek church of Jerusalem used the Old calendar.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2010, 10:41:26 PM »
Don't the Jerusalem Greeks Celebrate Jan 7 as well....As we Serbs do....and the Russija as well ...Looove the old calendar ;D
You're on the wrong calendar, dude. Even those on the Old Calendar have enough sense to celebrate Christmas on December 25. ;)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28721.msg452982.html#msg452982

December 25th on the Julian calendar translates to January 7th on the civil calendar.  :P
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Offline marryyyy

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2010, 12:00:41 AM »
well actually most greeks do celebrate it on the 7th of january

Trust me here, you don't know what you're talking about.

actually i do cause i know people who are greek and related to me that celebrate christmas Day on the 7th of January and Christmas eve on the 6th of January which is 29th Kiakh

so don't you tell me i don't know what i am talking about because i do

Offline mike

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2010, 02:58:03 AM »
What jurisdiction do they belong to?

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2010, 09:17:24 AM »
well actually most greeks do celebrate it on the 7th of january

Trust me here, you don't know what you're talking about.

actually i do cause i know people who are greek and related to me that celebrate christmas Day on the 7th of January and Christmas eve on the 6th of January which is 29th Kiakh

so don't you tell me i don't know what i am talking about because i do

“Several of the Orthodox Churches, however, did eventually agree, though not all at the same time, to adopt the New Calendar. These were the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Poland, and most recently, Bulgaria (1968)…The Orthodox Churches which have adopted the New Calendar observe Christmas with the other Churches of Christendom on December 25...”

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7070

Whatever the particular customs or traditions of the Greeks that you know, the "official" position of GOARCH is to celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25, according to the New Calendar.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline marryyyy

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2010, 06:57:45 PM »
actually all the coptic orthodox churches celebrate christmas on the 7th of January as we haven't adopted the new calendar as december 25th is a normal public holiday for us

we wouldn't even adopt the new calendar even if we wanted to  :)

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Do orthodox christians celebrate christmas on 7th January?
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2010, 08:11:50 PM »
well actually most greeks do celebrate it on the 7th of january

Trust me here, you don't know what you're talking about.

actually i do cause i know people who are greek and related to me that celebrate christmas Day on the 7th of January and Christmas eve on the 6th of January which is 29th Kiakh

so don't you tell me i don't know what i am talking about because i do

WTH?

All of the mainstream Greek jurisdictions adopted the Revised Julian calendar in the 20th century, to the exclusion of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem.
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