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Author Topic: My big bad baptism thread.  (Read 4427 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ninjaly Awesome
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« on: July 12, 2010, 09:05:43 PM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 09:15:44 PM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.

Methinks possibly you are overthinking this??
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 09:43:01 PM »

Ninjaly Awesome,


Quote
One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.
I don't see any challenges from what you wrote.

Although there are some criticisms.
1. Abraham was probably not fully "justified" until Jesus met him in the Tomb. Further, I encourage you to explore the meaning of "justified" as "becoming a just person," rather than the a Protestant misconception that it means the atonement and receiving grace. By the way, I don't think even Luther would refer to Abraham as fully justified.
2. Baptism doesn't replace circumcision in the same way, since circumcision means a mark or sign from God that you belong to the People, while baptism involves the Holy Spirit coming onto you.
3. "Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ." OK, sure. They feel calling of Holy Spirit and this calling is part of coming to God. OK. If you believe like Luther and Orthodox that Holy Spirit comes at baptism, then this isn't problem.

Also, I encourage you to explore the thread Orthodoxy and Calvinism.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,787.0.html

WELCOME!


« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 09:43:24 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 11:58:39 PM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.

Please do this.

Find a Strong's concordance or an online resource where you can find out where certain words are used in Scripture.
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/index2.htm
www.biblos.com
http://www.biblegateway.com/

Look up the words "baptism" and "baptized" and read the passages in Scripture that talk about Christian baptism (St John the Baptist baptized for repentance and the forgiveness of sins but not for the purpose of uniting to Christ).

If you really want to know what the Bible says about baptism and what happens at baptism, read what is actually written about baptism.

Also compare Ex 29:4-7 (Consecration of Aaron as a priest) to baptism and chrismation in the Orthodox Church (ordination to the royal priesthood of the believer).

On a side note I would like to mention that the Orthodox understanding of baptism and every other sacrament has to do with God doing something to a person and in and through a person. Sacraments aren't something that you do to proclaim that something that has already been done, but rather submitting in faith to God doing something to you in the sacrament.

Anyway, as far as baptism is concerned, I hope that this gives you a direction to look for the answer to your question without directly answering it for you. If You compare what is written in Scripture with Church teaching and how a baptism is performed in the Orthodox Church, the similarities just might surprise you.
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 05:04:57 PM »

Think of Baptism as an analogy to resurrection which cleanses and purifies one's soul and not as any regeneration.

Water gives Life (Creation or Salvation)
Water destroys Life (Judgment or Death)
Water makes clean (Forgives Sins, Cleanses)1

1 Thy Kingdom Come: A Study of Our Life in the Church Through the Holy Sacraments, page 23.

(Old Sunday School textbook from the 1960's, probably long out of print)
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 12:58:19 PM »

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" -Mark 16:16

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" - 1 Peter 3:21

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." -Acts 22:16

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" - Romans 6:3-5

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." - 1 Corinthians 6:11

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
- John 3:5

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." - 1 Corinthians 12:13

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" - Galatians 3:26-27

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. " -Ephesians 5:25-27

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." -Colossians 2: 11-12

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" - Titus 3:5

I think that the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration is fairly well established in the scriptures.






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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 01:56:54 PM »


3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

An Orthodox baptism is like entering a car and heading to a destination rather than as protestants put it, reaching that destination. For us the destination is salvation. Just as upon entering a car doesn't guarantee that one will reach there destination. The path from baptism to salvation isn't always guaranteed either. Salvation is a coordinated effort between god and man. That effort involves a molding of the inner person into the image of his/her creator.
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 03:31:55 PM »

Expanding further on what I cited regarding the role of water in Holy Baptism....

I take a bath .... I become clean .... Eventually, I become dirty and require another bath.  I do not regenerate myself after a bath.

Baptism has a similar analogy.  One can be baptized and freed/cleansed from sin ... however, one will sin again and require cleansing via the Sacrament of Confession (not via Baptism for there is only one baptism for the remission of sins and for life everlasting).  One is not regenerated after being baptized just as one is not regenerated after taking a bath....
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2010, 07:37:42 PM »

Quite a lot of responses! I only have so much time to respond since I'm married and work a lot.

Quote
1. Abraham was probably not fully "justified" until Jesus met him in the Tomb. Further, I encourage you to explore the meaning of "justified" as "becoming a just person," rather than the a Protestant misconception that it means the atonement and receiving grace. By the way, I don't think even Luther would refer to Abraham as fully justified.

I'm still in the process of researching the issue of justification and how the Orthodox see that subject. I live in the Southern U.S., so there aren't a lot of library resources here. From what I gather, the Protestants defend their definition by appealing to the Greek word dikaiosune which means to delcare righteous instead of make righteous (that is, unless there's some sort of context in the Bible that the Protestants are missing here).

Quote
On a side note I would like to mention that the Orthodox understanding of baptism and every other sacrament has to do with God doing something to a person and in and through a person. Sacraments aren't something that you do to proclaim that something that has already been done, but rather submitting in faith to God doing something to you in the sacrament.

Thanks for addressing this. I learned it previously but I think it's good to state to Protestants who object to the sacraments because of the misconception that you're working to earn your salvation with them.

Quote
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" -Mark 16:16

The problem with this is that it isn't found in the earliest manuscripts of Mark's gospel and most scholars believe it was a later scribal addition.

Quote
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" - 1 Peter 3:21

IMO this is the strongest evidence for baptismal regeneration. Personally, I also don't have a counter for it. I know that most Protestants would point to the parenthesis and say that it's not the act of baptism but the person's faith that saves them.

Quote
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." -Acts 22:16

I would say that looking at the context, washing away sins happens when the person calls on the name of the Lord (see Romans 10:9-10). And before the objection comes, I don't believe in the "sinner's prayer."

Quote
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
- John 3:5

The problem is that within the context of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, baptism is not talked about. The water referred to in that verse is referring to natural birth. It especially makes sense with the next verse that says: "6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." If I believed in baptismal regeneration, I would not use this verse to defend it. By saying that this is verse is talking about baptism is reading something into it that isn't there.

I'll respond to some of the other stuff hopefully later. I'm sorry I can't get to it all but I do read these posts and think about what you guys have to say.
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2010, 08:17:40 PM »

Actually it is the Latin word for "Justified" that the Protestants are defending if I'm not mistaken.
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2010, 08:34:54 PM »

One of the phrases which I have always loved in the baptismal service is its mention of Baptism, twice, as the "laver of regeneration."  The word seems rather beautiful in Slavonic - pakibytie

The concept of course is found in Saint Paul where he is writing to Titus - "the laver of regeneration" (Titus 3:5).

I think that many translations use "the washing of regeneration" but the original Greek text speaks of "the laver of regeneration."
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2010, 02:17:48 AM »

Quite a lot of responses! I only have so much time to respond since I'm married and work a lot.

Quote
1. Abraham was probably not fully "justified" until Jesus met him in the Tomb. Further, I encourage you to explore the meaning of "justified" as "becoming a just person," rather than the a Protestant misconception that it means the atonement and receiving grace. By the way, I don't think even Luther would refer to Abraham as fully justified.

I'm still in the process of researching the issue of justification and how the Orthodox see that subject. I live in the Southern U.S., so there aren't a lot of library resources here. From what I gather, the Protestants defend their definition by appealing to the Greek word dikaiosune which means to delcare righteous instead of make righteous (that is, unless there's some sort of context in the Bible that the Protestants are missing here).

It's ok. You can go to Orthodox church and read on internet. The kind of defense you mention "declaring righteous" is irrelevant because the concept of salvation must I believe different terms and concepts for the same experience. Protestants wrongly use the term "justification" to only mean the moment when the person believes in Jesus and has communion with Him. Protestants would agree with what James letter says about becoming just with works, becoming like Christ. But this is missed in most discussions with them about justification and salvation. Salvation and justification in their mind means the moment of contact and communion. For us, with right understanding of term justification, the word itself means a process of becoming just. The difference in understanding the process is I think an illusion, because we both agree that it's necessary to have communion, faith, and then to do good works to be saved. If you're not doing God's will, then the faith is empty.

As for "declared just" vs "becoming just," how can you be declared just if you haven't become "just" yet? If you are made "just" and righteous only by believing like some Calvinists simplify it to be, then that's the same thing as what those same folks mean by the word "declared just"!

This kind of word definition reminds me of the entire problem. The protestants' big discovery of Sola Fide is just semantics.

There are real differences between faiths, but I just don't believe that a full understanding of the experience of salvation/justification is different in practical terms.
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2010, 05:50:20 AM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.
Welcome to the forum!

I don't think we would have any doctrinal issue with this belief as you have stated it. The key phrase here is "the beginning of a person's salvation." There are many, many things that a person must do to be saved, and all of them are made possible by a complete trust in the Holy Trinity. I think where the Orthodox who have responded to this thread are expressing hesitation is due to our experience with Protestants who say that only trust in Christ in necessary for salvation--which is a fallacy. To use an example from above, without the decision to get in the car and go somewhere, I cannot get to any destination; however, if I make the decision to go but never actually get in the car, I will not arrive where I want to be--and indeed, can it really be said if I never act on the decision to get in the car, that I have truly made that decision?

So I think that you are correct that salvation begins with the decision to put one's complete trust in the Trinity. This is not a cognitive decision, however; even a baby is capable of trusting completely. Yet salvation will not be completed at any time in this life, so we must constantly work toward it with every action we do. Baptism is one such action that will help us in salvation. It is a part of a process that began long before and will continue long after.
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2010, 10:27:51 AM »


The problem is that within the context of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, baptism is not talked about. The water referred to in that verse is referring to natural birth. It especially makes sense with the next verse that says: "6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." If I believed in baptismal regeneration, I would not use this verse to defend it. By saying that this is verse is talking about baptism is reading something into it that isn't there.


Wrong. The very next passage is about Jesus and the Apostles Baptizing.

"When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee." (John 4: 1-3)

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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2010, 10:53:41 AM »

Although it comes from a different perspective, you may want to check out the following book:

Of Water and the Spirit: A Liturgical Study of Baptism
by Alexander Schmemann
ISBN   0913836109 / 9780913836101 / 0-913836-10-9
Publisher   St Vladimirs Seminary Pr
Language   English
Edition   Softcover
List price   $14.00

Book summary

In this study of the Orthodox understanding of Christian initiation, the rites of baptism and chrismation, Fr Schmemann invites us to 'rediscover' baptism. He penetrates the Church's rubrics and rituals' often dismissed as out-of-date or merely quaint to reveal their inner content: a message of man's entrance into new life, into the Church and into the Kingdom. The result is a powerful statement of the meaning baptism should hold in our lives. 

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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2010, 01:39:18 AM »

From what I gather, the Protestants defend their definition by appealing to the Greek word dikaiosune which means to delcare righteous instead of make righteous (that is, unless there's some sort of context in the Bible that the Protestants are missing here).

I haven't personally looked up every declaration of God in the Bible, but how many instances can you give me where God declares something without it either already being so or God making it so? A few examples of what I mean would be this. God said "let there be light", and there was light. God declared a change in Abraham's name when God established the covenant with him, changing their relationship. Jacob's name was chenged to Israel because he actually wrestled with God. Christ declared a fig tree to whither, and it did. Can you find an example where God declared something without there being an underlying reality to what was being declared?
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2010, 01:47:26 AM »

And putting justification aside, have you read what the Bible actually says about baptism yet? I know you've gotten a lot of responses on here and are still sorting through them, but I honestly believe that studying what is written about baptism will give you a good perspective concerning baptism.
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« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 06:04:52 PM »

I don't know how my American brethren baptise; here is a photo from last Sunday at our chruch in Wales. (Pastor on the left.)
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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 06:59:05 PM »

with regards to the picture

1) wheres the water?

and

2) what are the people doing

3) what is the lady doing with her right hand?

edit: lol it took a while before i found the water!
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« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2011, 04:05:15 AM »

with regards to the picture

1) wheres the water?

I note that you found it! But yes, we tend to stand in water up to about the hips or waist and plunge the person backwards into the water till completely immersed, preceding that with something like "Upon profession of your faith in Jesus Christ, I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The minister often  asks for the help of a second person (deacon or whatever) to help lower and lift. I once baptised a quite large man - taller and rounder than I - and did just that. When we use a river, then the depth might not so easily chosen. (I attended a baptism in Albania once, the only one that had a loud chorus of toads accompanying the event in the background!)

Quote
2) what are the people doing

The pastor and the other man (an elder) are doing the dipping. The congregation was invited to gather round the front, in the aisle, before the pulpit, and so on, especially the younger ones and children, to be able more clearly to witness the event. The person to be baptised usually gives a testimony of his/her coming to faith: this particular lady was very articulate, but if a person is shy or not really up to speaking before a crowd, this is not required: the testimony will then usually be replaced with a question asked by the minister, "Do you...?" and a simple "I do." After that they go down into the water for the baptism itself. Afterwards, those who were in the water go into other rooms to dry and change, whilst a hymn a sung.

Quote
3) what is the lady doing with her right hand?

Nothing particular - nothing "religious" (though some people do raise one or more hands in prayer - maybe she did). It was not I who took the photo, so I don't know the exact moment when it was snapped.

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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2011, 06:38:08 AM »

Abaraham went to Hell, see Gospel of Nicodemus. He was baptized by Jesus on his descent to Hell and then moved to heaven.

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.
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« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2011, 06:46:34 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2011, 08:25:10 AM »

Abraham went to Hell, ...then moved to heaven.

Is it not true that, before Christ's resurrection, all people went to hell/Hades/Sheol - that is, the same place, whatever word or translation one gives it - and that the way to heaven was opened only at that first Easter? Then all true believers from beforehand were admitted to heaven/Paradise/the Lord's presence?
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« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2011, 08:29:34 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2011, 08:43:58 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been

So who is Luke according to the Bible, jewish voice? Please enlighten us.
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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2011, 08:54:54 AM »

To translate into English.

Christianity is about having great life in after life. No Christian= no big gifts in after life , for example wikipedia Sheol:"place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" So without Christianity, good or bad direction around here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-VlJnDvuw

Eastern orthodox Christianity = get all good gifts. Protestantism = get some  gifts while letting some out like immortality. Some people say no gifts for Roman Catholics and Protestants since Holy Spirit that brings gifts may  come to them.

Everybody is Eastern Orthodox Christian since everybody wants good life in after life.

God accepted Luke as Apostle so if anybody does not accept Luke I don't care. I go after God judgement. If is illogical to go to doctor for extending life several days, years and then choosing Protestantism and letting go immortality that is quadrillion + eternity mega millenniums Ninjaly Awesome.....do you go to doctor? Why?
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« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2011, 09:38:31 AM »

Abaraham went to Hell, see Gospel of Nicodemus. He was baptized by Jesus on his descent to Hell and then moved to heaven.
Most of us here don't know of the Gospel of Nicodemus, so I think you're going to have to give us a link to where we can read it, as well as quote pertinent verses.
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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2011, 09:44:48 AM »

To translate into English.

Christianity is about having great life in after life. No Christian= no big gifts in after life , for example wikipedia Sheol:"place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" So without Christianity, good or bad direction around here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-VlJnDvuw

Eastern orthodox Christianity = get all good gifts. Protestantism = get some  gifts while letting some out like immortality. Some people say no gifts for Roman Catholics and Protestants since Holy Spirit that brings gifts may  come to them.

Everybody is Eastern Orthodox Christian since everybody wants good life in after life.
If everybody is an Eastern Orthodox Christian, then why are you even here preaching that some need to become Orthodox Christians? Huh

Besides, the belief that Christianity is about having a great afterlife is really part of a Gnostic ideal that has infected so much of Christianity today. If Christ is not risen from the dead, then we are not raised with him, and it really doesn't matter what we experience in the afterlife.
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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2011, 09:48:41 AM »

The Gospel of Nicodemus informs much of the hymnography of the latter part of Holy Week and Pascha. It also provides much of the imagery for the Resurrection icon, also known as the Harrowing of Hades.

Quote
If everybody is an Eastern Orthodox Christian, then why are you even here preaching that some need to become Orthodox Christians?

It is clear that English is not pasadi's first language. It's quite likely he is simply trying to say "all who are Orthodox Christians ...".
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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2011, 10:00:32 AM »

This is great life in after life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxU3LDDMeaM&feature=related
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« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2011, 10:00:44 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been

I think it is traditionally believed that he painted icons.
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« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2011, 10:17:40 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been

I think it is traditionally believed that he painted icons.

St. Luke, First painter of the Virgin Mary

Luke's biography does not contain abundant miracles and dangerous travels. He is presented as a well-educated man, who in Greece and Egypt studied disciplines such as grammar, rhetoric, poetry, ethics and logic. He was a physician and a painter, who died peacefully in Achaia (a late Roman province embracing the Peloponnesus and central Greece, with the capital in Corinth). His relics are said to have been transferred to Constantinople by St. Artemis under the reign of Constantine II.

Legend has it that St. Luke was the first artist to paint the portrait of the Virgin Mary. The monasteries of Hodegon and Soumela claim that the icons of the Virgin Mary in their possession are Luke's paintings. Hodegon Monastery is located in Constantinople close to Hagia Sophia. It was founded the 5th Century by the Empress Pulcheria to house precious relics, which later included the Virgin Hodegetria. Soumela monastery is located on the face of a cliff on the western slopes of Mt. Melas in Asia Minor. The mastery was dedicated to the Virgin; Its origins date back to the 4th Century and its beginnings are attributed to two Athenian monks, Barnabas and Sophronios, who supposedly discovered in a cave at Soumela an icon of the Virgin painted by Luke. In the 20th Century the monastery was abandoned.

Although portrayed as white haired in the 6th Century Cambridge Gospels, St. Luke appears in most Byzantine portraits as a young man with brown, curly hair, hollow cheeks, and a wispy beard. He is usually shown writing in front of a desk. Occasionally he is accompanied by Paul who supposedly inspired his Gospel; more often he is accompanied by his patron, Theophilus. St. Luke's feast day is on October 18. He is the author of the 3`d Gospel, and the Book of Acts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/iconography/iconhistory.cfm

Interesting reading.
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« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2011, 11:11:22 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been

I think it is traditionally believed that he painted icons.

St. Luke, First painter of the Virgin Mary

Luke's biography does not contain abundant miracles and dangerous travels. He is presented as a well-educated man, who in Greece and Egypt studied disciplines such as grammar, rhetoric, poetry, ethics and logic. He was a physician and a painter, who died peacefully in Achaia (a late Roman province embracing the Peloponnesus and central Greece, with the capital in Corinth). His relics are said to have been transferred to Constantinople by St. Artemis under the reign of Constantine II.

Legend has it that St. Luke was the first artist to paint the portrait of the Virgin Mary. The monasteries of Hodegon and Soumela claim that the icons of the Virgin Mary in their possession are Luke's paintings. Hodegon Monastery is located in Constantinople close to Hagia Sophia. It was founded the 5th Century by the Empress Pulcheria to house precious relics, which later included the Virgin Hodegetria. Soumela monastery is located on the face of a cliff on the western slopes of Mt. Melas in Asia Minor. The mastery was dedicated to the Virgin; Its origins date back to the 4th Century and its beginnings are attributed to two Athenian monks, Barnabas and Sophronios, who supposedly discovered in a cave at Soumela an icon of the Virgin painted by Luke. In the 20th Century the monastery was abandoned.

Although portrayed as white haired in the 6th Century Cambridge Gospels, St. Luke appears in most Byzantine portraits as a young man with brown, curly hair, hollow cheeks, and a wispy beard. He is usually shown writing in front of a desk. Occasionally he is accompanied by Paul who supposedly inspired his Gospel; more often he is accompanied by his patron, Theophilus. St. Luke's feast day is on October 18. He is the author of the 3`d Gospel, and the Book of Acts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/iconography/iconhistory.cfm

Interesting reading.
At least you took sometime to look somethings up I'll give you that but you didn't go deep enough in your search.
My point to Pasadi97 is to not just take some legends an try to post them as facts. First we don't know if he did or didn't paint Mary thats still up for debate second what Luke does outside of the writing of his account that he heard from the people who knew Jesus has no true bases on the faith.
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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2011, 06:33:49 AM »

There are no history rules for everything else and history rules for Eastern orthodox Church. There is one history and according with this science, Apostle Luke has painted icons and Church has fought against errors like iconoclasm.

To demonstrate somebody that did not choose baptism for himself and children, to demonstrate that he and his children are not Eastern Orthodox Christians, he should go with children in a pit without light, stay there, in a stinky smell and such and say at the end, I had a great day. Unfortunately this is the future people without baptism prepare for their children. Then I can say, he is not an Eastern Orthodox Christian . "Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."


Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people. This is why I said people are Orthodox Christians in behavior and that they don't choose Eastern orthodox Christianity since they are misguided.
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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2011, 08:15:30 AM »

Next protestants, they should say, why should I get you to doctor to give you several decades when I renounced to immortality....since I choose the teachings of men like Luther, Calvin and Johny that I hold in high esteem against teachings of Church and for sake of the teachings of these men we went outside of Church?

Also Protestant and Romano Catholics should play dice and if the dice run certain probability (Protestant probability should be thousand times smaller than for RC and if denomination renounced baptism, probability to stay outside of pit for s should be around 0) so when that combination comes , that day everybody goes to pit. Then I can say, this man and Children are truly protestants and they have a protestant life style a life style of Protesting the true teachings and Church.
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2011, 08:16:45 AM »

There are no history rules for everything else and history rules for Eastern orthodox Church. There is one history and according with this science, Apostle Luke has painted icons and Church has fought against errors like iconoclasm.

To demonstrate somebody that did not choose baptism for himself and children, to demonstrate that he and his children are not Eastern Orthodox Christians, he should go with children in a pit without light, stay there, in a stinky smell and such and say at the end, I had a great day. Unfortunately this is the future people without baptism prepare for their children. Then I can say, he is not an Eastern Orthodox Christian . "Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."


Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people. This is why I said people are Orthodox Christians in behavior and that they don't choose Eastern orthodox Christianity since they are misguided.
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2011, 10:04:05 AM »

"Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."
Could you provide a link to the source of this block of text, please? 72 hours should be enough time for you to comply with this official request.
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2011, 11:49:51 AM »

Quote from: pasadi97
Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people.

What does this mean?  Huh
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2011, 12:17:05 PM »

I really have no idea what pasadi97 is talking about.  Huh  Huh
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2011, 12:28:27 PM »

I don't know how my American brethren baptise; here is a photo from last Sunday at our chruch in Wales. (Pastor on the left.)


From the picture and from what you describe, this is similar to how baptisms are done in Baptist Churches here in the US. I have also seen them performed in rivers and lakes when the weather was warm.

In the Orthodox Church, if it is an adult that is being baptized, either a pool, large font, large tub of water, or even a river or lake will be used. For babies, it is usually a baptismal font in the Church.

 

Here is the Service of Holy Baptism if you are interested in reading it.
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« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2011, 12:39:47 PM »

Abraham went to Hell, ...then moved to heaven.

Is it not true that, before Christ's resurrection, all people went to hell/Hades/Sheol - that is, the same place, whatever word or translation one gives it - and that the way to heaven was opened only at that first Easter? Then all true believers from beforehand were admitted to heaven/Paradise/the Lord's presence?

You are correct. When Christ descended into Hell, he freed the captives and those who believed in God were welcome into Paradise that day.

That is why the Resurrection Icon of Christ shows Him pulling Adam and Eve from the bonds of Hell:



(Note how Christ is grabbing them firmly by the wrist, as if He's saying "I've got you now, and I'm not going to let you go!")

This is also why the Paschal Troparion (Hymn) that is sung multiple times during Paschaltide is as follows:

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!

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« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2011, 12:48:00 PM »

Abraham went to Hell, ...then moved to heaven.

Is it not true that, before Christ's resurrection, all people went to hell/Hades/Sheol - that is, the same place, whatever word or translation one gives it - and that the way to heaven was opened only at that first Easter? Then all true believers from beforehand were admitted to heaven/Paradise/the Lord's presence?

You are correct. When Christ descended into Hell, he freed the captives and those who believed in God were welcome into Paradise that day.

That is why the Resurrection Icon of Christ shows Him pulling Adam and Eve from the bonds of Hell:



(Note how Christ is grabbing them firmly by the wrist, as if He's saying "I've got you now, and I'm not going to let you go!")

This is also why the Paschal Troparion (Hymn) that is sung multiple times during Paschaltide is as follows:

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!



One of my favorite icons!
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« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2011, 06:19:58 AM »

  [img]

It's a good job we Baptists don't dress our people the same way as you do when they are being baptised!  Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2011, 06:21:36 AM »

One of my favorite icons!

I like it.
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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2011, 08:00:17 AM »

There are no history rules for everything else and history rules for Eastern orthodox Church. There is one history and according with this science, Apostle Luke has painted icons and Church has fought against errors like iconoclasm.

To demonstrate somebody that did not choose baptism for himself and children, to demonstrate that he and his children are not Eastern Orthodox Christians, he should go with children in a pit without light, stay there, in a stinky smell and such and say at the end, I had a great day. Unfortunately this is the future people without baptism prepare for their children. Then I can say, he is not an Eastern Orthodox Christian . "Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."


Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people. This is why I said people are Orthodox Christians in behavior and that they don't choose Eastern orthodox Christianity since they are misguided.

This is the source for nth time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

Unfortunately you see people speaking not knowing what they speak about, like people speaking about the greatness of Islam and living Eastern orthodox Christian life...... would they be granted to see in this life , one day now of what Muslims must endure in after life , just to see like on a TV , they would choose their words. THIS IS MY IDEA OF A MOVIE....taking religions one by one and showing what they prepare for in after life hopefully God will make such a movie for us and make us understand that is true and force everybody and everyone to the best life in after life.
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