OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 25, 2014, 11:12:08 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: My big bad baptism thread.  (Read 4613 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ninjaly Awesome
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catachumen
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 87



« on: July 12, 2010, 09:05:43 PM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.
Logged

饥 渴 慕 义 的 人 有 福 了 ! 因 为 他 们 必 得 饱 足 。

馬 太 福 音 5:6
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 09:15:44 PM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.

Methinks possibly you are overthinking this??
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,715



WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 09:43:01 PM »

Ninjaly Awesome,


Quote
One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.
I don't see any challenges from what you wrote.

Although there are some criticisms.
1. Abraham was probably not fully "justified" until Jesus met him in the Tomb. Further, I encourage you to explore the meaning of "justified" as "becoming a just person," rather than the a Protestant misconception that it means the atonement and receiving grace. By the way, I don't think even Luther would refer to Abraham as fully justified.
2. Baptism doesn't replace circumcision in the same way, since circumcision means a mark or sign from God that you belong to the People, while baptism involves the Holy Spirit coming onto you.
3. "Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ." OK, sure. They feel calling of Holy Spirit and this calling is part of coming to God. OK. If you believe like Luther and Orthodox that Holy Spirit comes at baptism, then this isn't problem.

Also, I encourage you to explore the thread Orthodoxy and Calvinism.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,787.0.html

WELCOME!


« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 09:43:24 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 11:58:39 PM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.

Please do this.

Find a Strong's concordance or an online resource where you can find out where certain words are used in Scripture.
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/index2.htm
www.biblos.com
http://www.biblegateway.com/

Look up the words "baptism" and "baptized" and read the passages in Scripture that talk about Christian baptism (St John the Baptist baptized for repentance and the forgiveness of sins but not for the purpose of uniting to Christ).

If you really want to know what the Bible says about baptism and what happens at baptism, read what is actually written about baptism.

Also compare Ex 29:4-7 (Consecration of Aaron as a priest) to baptism and chrismation in the Orthodox Church (ordination to the royal priesthood of the believer).

On a side note I would like to mention that the Orthodox understanding of baptism and every other sacrament has to do with God doing something to a person and in and through a person. Sacraments aren't something that you do to proclaim that something that has already been done, but rather submitting in faith to God doing something to you in the sacrament.

Anyway, as far as baptism is concerned, I hope that this gives you a direction to look for the answer to your question without directly answering it for you. If You compare what is written in Scripture with Church teaching and how a baptism is performed in the Orthodox Church, the similarities just might surprise you.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,665


WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 05:04:57 PM »

Think of Baptism as an analogy to resurrection which cleanses and purifies one's soul and not as any regeneration.

Water gives Life (Creation or Salvation)
Water destroys Life (Judgment or Death)
Water makes clean (Forgives Sins, Cleanses)1

1 Thy Kingdom Come: A Study of Our Life in the Church Through the Holy Sacraments, page 23.

(Old Sunday School textbook from the 1960's, probably long out of print)
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,363


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 12:58:19 PM »

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" -Mark 16:16

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" - 1 Peter 3:21

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." -Acts 22:16

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" - Romans 6:3-5

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." - 1 Corinthians 6:11

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
- John 3:5

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." - 1 Corinthians 12:13

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" - Galatians 3:26-27

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. " -Ephesians 5:25-27

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." -Colossians 2: 11-12

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" - Titus 3:5

I think that the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration is fairly well established in the scriptures.






Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Tzimis
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,375



« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 01:56:54 PM »


3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

An Orthodox baptism is like entering a car and heading to a destination rather than as protestants put it, reaching that destination. For us the destination is salvation. Just as upon entering a car doesn't guarantee that one will reach there destination. The path from baptism to salvation isn't always guaranteed either. Salvation is a coordinated effort between god and man. That effort involves a molding of the inner person into the image of his/her creator.
Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,665


WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 03:31:55 PM »

Expanding further on what I cited regarding the role of water in Holy Baptism....

I take a bath .... I become clean .... Eventually, I become dirty and require another bath.  I do not regenerate myself after a bath.

Baptism has a similar analogy.  One can be baptized and freed/cleansed from sin ... however, one will sin again and require cleansing via the Sacrament of Confession (not via Baptism for there is only one baptism for the remission of sins and for life everlasting).  One is not regenerated after being baptized just as one is not regenerated after taking a bath....
Logged
Ninjaly Awesome
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catachumen
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 87



« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2010, 07:37:42 PM »

Quite a lot of responses! I only have so much time to respond since I'm married and work a lot.

Quote
1. Abraham was probably not fully "justified" until Jesus met him in the Tomb. Further, I encourage you to explore the meaning of "justified" as "becoming a just person," rather than the a Protestant misconception that it means the atonement and receiving grace. By the way, I don't think even Luther would refer to Abraham as fully justified.

I'm still in the process of researching the issue of justification and how the Orthodox see that subject. I live in the Southern U.S., so there aren't a lot of library resources here. From what I gather, the Protestants defend their definition by appealing to the Greek word dikaiosune which means to delcare righteous instead of make righteous (that is, unless there's some sort of context in the Bible that the Protestants are missing here).

Quote
On a side note I would like to mention that the Orthodox understanding of baptism and every other sacrament has to do with God doing something to a person and in and through a person. Sacraments aren't something that you do to proclaim that something that has already been done, but rather submitting in faith to God doing something to you in the sacrament.

Thanks for addressing this. I learned it previously but I think it's good to state to Protestants who object to the sacraments because of the misconception that you're working to earn your salvation with them.

Quote
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" -Mark 16:16

The problem with this is that it isn't found in the earliest manuscripts of Mark's gospel and most scholars believe it was a later scribal addition.

Quote
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" - 1 Peter 3:21

IMO this is the strongest evidence for baptismal regeneration. Personally, I also don't have a counter for it. I know that most Protestants would point to the parenthesis and say that it's not the act of baptism but the person's faith that saves them.

Quote
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." -Acts 22:16

I would say that looking at the context, washing away sins happens when the person calls on the name of the Lord (see Romans 10:9-10). And before the objection comes, I don't believe in the "sinner's prayer."

Quote
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
- John 3:5

The problem is that within the context of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, baptism is not talked about. The water referred to in that verse is referring to natural birth. It especially makes sense with the next verse that says: "6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." If I believed in baptismal regeneration, I would not use this verse to defend it. By saying that this is verse is talking about baptism is reading something into it that isn't there.

I'll respond to some of the other stuff hopefully later. I'm sorry I can't get to it all but I do read these posts and think about what you guys have to say.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 07:38:42 PM by Ninjaly Awesome » Logged

饥 渴 慕 义 的 人 有 福 了 ! 因 为 他 们 必 得 饱 足 。

馬 太 福 音 5:6
DennyB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228


Moving Toward Orthodoxy


« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2010, 08:17:40 PM »

Actually it is the Latin word for "Justified" that the Protestants are defending if I'm not mistaken.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2010, 08:34:54 PM »

One of the phrases which I have always loved in the baptismal service is its mention of Baptism, twice, as the "laver of regeneration."  The word seems rather beautiful in Slavonic - pakibytie

The concept of course is found in Saint Paul where he is writing to Titus - "the laver of regeneration" (Titus 3:5).

I think that many translations use "the washing of regeneration" but the original Greek text speaks of "the laver of regeneration."
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,715



WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2010, 02:17:48 AM »

Quite a lot of responses! I only have so much time to respond since I'm married and work a lot.

Quote
1. Abraham was probably not fully "justified" until Jesus met him in the Tomb. Further, I encourage you to explore the meaning of "justified" as "becoming a just person," rather than the a Protestant misconception that it means the atonement and receiving grace. By the way, I don't think even Luther would refer to Abraham as fully justified.

I'm still in the process of researching the issue of justification and how the Orthodox see that subject. I live in the Southern U.S., so there aren't a lot of library resources here. From what I gather, the Protestants defend their definition by appealing to the Greek word dikaiosune which means to delcare righteous instead of make righteous (that is, unless there's some sort of context in the Bible that the Protestants are missing here).

It's ok. You can go to Orthodox church and read on internet. The kind of defense you mention "declaring righteous" is irrelevant because the concept of salvation must I believe different terms and concepts for the same experience. Protestants wrongly use the term "justification" to only mean the moment when the person believes in Jesus and has communion with Him. Protestants would agree with what James letter says about becoming just with works, becoming like Christ. But this is missed in most discussions with them about justification and salvation. Salvation and justification in their mind means the moment of contact and communion. For us, with right understanding of term justification, the word itself means a process of becoming just. The difference in understanding the process is I think an illusion, because we both agree that it's necessary to have communion, faith, and then to do good works to be saved. If you're not doing God's will, then the faith is empty.

As for "declared just" vs "becoming just," how can you be declared just if you haven't become "just" yet? If you are made "just" and righteous only by believing like some Calvinists simplify it to be, then that's the same thing as what those same folks mean by the word "declared just"!

This kind of word definition reminds me of the entire problem. The protestants' big discovery of Sola Fide is just semantics.

There are real differences between faiths, but I just don't believe that a full understanding of the experience of salvation/justification is different in practical terms.
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2010, 05:50:20 AM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.
Welcome to the forum!

I don't think we would have any doctrinal issue with this belief as you have stated it. The key phrase here is "the beginning of a person's salvation." There are many, many things that a person must do to be saved, and all of them are made possible by a complete trust in the Holy Trinity. I think where the Orthodox who have responded to this thread are expressing hesitation is due to our experience with Protestants who say that only trust in Christ in necessary for salvation--which is a fallacy. To use an example from above, without the decision to get in the car and go somewhere, I cannot get to any destination; however, if I make the decision to go but never actually get in the car, I will not arrive where I want to be--and indeed, can it really be said if I never act on the decision to get in the car, that I have truly made that decision?

So I think that you are correct that salvation begins with the decision to put one's complete trust in the Trinity. This is not a cognitive decision, however; even a baby is capable of trusting completely. Yet salvation will not be completed at any time in this life, so we must constantly work toward it with every action we do. Baptism is one such action that will help us in salvation. It is a part of a process that began long before and will continue long after.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,363


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2010, 10:27:51 AM »


The problem is that within the context of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, baptism is not talked about. The water referred to in that verse is referring to natural birth. It especially makes sense with the next verse that says: "6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." If I believed in baptismal regeneration, I would not use this verse to defend it. By saying that this is verse is talking about baptism is reading something into it that isn't there.


Wrong. The very next passage is about Jesus and the Apostles Baptizing.

"When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee." (John 4: 1-3)

Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2010, 10:53:41 AM »

Although it comes from a different perspective, you may want to check out the following book:

Of Water and the Spirit: A Liturgical Study of Baptism
by Alexander Schmemann
ISBN   0913836109 / 9780913836101 / 0-913836-10-9
Publisher   St Vladimirs Seminary Pr
Language   English
Edition   Softcover
List price   $14.00

Book summary

In this study of the Orthodox understanding of Christian initiation, the rites of baptism and chrismation, Fr Schmemann invites us to 'rediscover' baptism. He penetrates the Church's rubrics and rituals' often dismissed as out-of-date or merely quaint to reveal their inner content: a message of man's entrance into new life, into the Church and into the Kingdom. The result is a powerful statement of the meaning baptism should hold in our lives. 

Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2010, 01:39:18 AM »

From what I gather, the Protestants defend their definition by appealing to the Greek word dikaiosune which means to delcare righteous instead of make righteous (that is, unless there's some sort of context in the Bible that the Protestants are missing here).

I haven't personally looked up every declaration of God in the Bible, but how many instances can you give me where God declares something without it either already being so or God making it so? A few examples of what I mean would be this. God said "let there be light", and there was light. God declared a change in Abraham's name when God established the covenant with him, changing their relationship. Jacob's name was chenged to Israel because he actually wrestled with God. Christ declared a fig tree to whither, and it did. Can you find an example where God declared something without there being an underlying reality to what was being declared?
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2010, 01:47:26 AM »

And putting justification aside, have you read what the Bible actually says about baptism yet? I know you've gotten a lot of responses on here and are still sorting through them, but I honestly believe that studying what is written about baptism will give you a good perspective concerning baptism.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 06:04:52 PM »

I don't know how my American brethren baptise; here is a photo from last Sunday at our chruch in Wales. (Pastor on the left.)
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 06:59:05 PM »

with regards to the picture

1) wheres the water?

and

2) what are the people doing

3) what is the lady doing with her right hand?

edit: lol it took a while before i found the water!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 07:00:05 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2011, 04:05:15 AM »

with regards to the picture

1) wheres the water?

I note that you found it! But yes, we tend to stand in water up to about the hips or waist and plunge the person backwards into the water till completely immersed, preceding that with something like "Upon profession of your faith in Jesus Christ, I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The minister often  asks for the help of a second person (deacon or whatever) to help lower and lift. I once baptised a quite large man - taller and rounder than I - and did just that. When we use a river, then the depth might not so easily chosen. (I attended a baptism in Albania once, the only one that had a loud chorus of toads accompanying the event in the background!)

Quote
2) what are the people doing

The pastor and the other man (an elder) are doing the dipping. The congregation was invited to gather round the front, in the aisle, before the pulpit, and so on, especially the younger ones and children, to be able more clearly to witness the event. The person to be baptised usually gives a testimony of his/her coming to faith: this particular lady was very articulate, but if a person is shy or not really up to speaking before a crowd, this is not required: the testimony will then usually be replaced with a question asked by the minister, "Do you...?" and a simple "I do." After that they go down into the water for the baptism itself. Afterwards, those who were in the water go into other rooms to dry and change, whilst a hymn a sung.

Quote
3) what is the lady doing with her right hand?

Nothing particular - nothing "religious" (though some people do raise one or more hands in prayer - maybe she did). It was not I who took the photo, so I don't know the exact moment when it was snapped.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 04:26:47 AM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2011, 06:38:08 AM »

Abaraham went to Hell, see Gospel of Nicodemus. He was baptized by Jesus on his descent to Hell and then moved to heaven.

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2011, 06:46:34 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 06:46:49 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2011, 08:25:10 AM »

Abraham went to Hell, ...then moved to heaven.

Is it not true that, before Christ's resurrection, all people went to hell/Hades/Sheol - that is, the same place, whatever word or translation one gives it - and that the way to heaven was opened only at that first Easter? Then all true believers from beforehand were admitted to heaven/Paradise/the Lord's presence?
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
jewish voice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 668



« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2011, 08:29:34 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,443


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2011, 08:43:58 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been

So who is Luke according to the Bible, jewish voice? Please enlighten us.
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2011, 08:54:54 AM »

To translate into English.

Christianity is about having great life in after life. No Christian= no big gifts in after life , for example wikipedia Sheol:"place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" So without Christianity, good or bad direction around here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-VlJnDvuw

Eastern orthodox Christianity = get all good gifts. Protestantism = get some  gifts while letting some out like immortality. Some people say no gifts for Roman Catholics and Protestants since Holy Spirit that brings gifts may  come to them.

Everybody is Eastern Orthodox Christian since everybody wants good life in after life.

God accepted Luke as Apostle so if anybody does not accept Luke I don't care. I go after God judgement. If is illogical to go to doctor for extending life several days, years and then choosing Protestantism and letting go immortality that is quadrillion + eternity mega millenniums Ninjaly Awesome.....do you go to doctor? Why?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 09:07:13 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2011, 09:38:31 AM »

Abaraham went to Hell, see Gospel of Nicodemus. He was baptized by Jesus on his descent to Hell and then moved to heaven.
Most of us here don't know of the Gospel of Nicodemus, so I think you're going to have to give us a link to where we can read it, as well as quote pertinent verses.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2011, 09:44:48 AM »

To translate into English.

Christianity is about having great life in after life. No Christian= no big gifts in after life , for example wikipedia Sheol:"place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" So without Christianity, good or bad direction around here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-VlJnDvuw

Eastern orthodox Christianity = get all good gifts. Protestantism = get some  gifts while letting some out like immortality. Some people say no gifts for Roman Catholics and Protestants since Holy Spirit that brings gifts may  come to them.

Everybody is Eastern Orthodox Christian since everybody wants good life in after life.
If everybody is an Eastern Orthodox Christian, then why are you even here preaching that some need to become Orthodox Christians? Huh

Besides, the belief that Christianity is about having a great afterlife is really part of a Gnostic ideal that has infected so much of Christianity today. If Christ is not risen from the dead, then we are not raised with him, and it really doesn't matter what we experience in the afterlife.
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,443


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2011, 09:48:41 AM »

The Gospel of Nicodemus informs much of the hymnography of the latter part of Holy Week and Pascha. It also provides much of the imagery for the Resurrection icon, also known as the Harrowing of Hades.

Quote
If everybody is an Eastern Orthodox Christian, then why are you even here preaching that some need to become Orthodox Christians?

It is clear that English is not pasadi's first language. It's quite likely he is simply trying to say "all who are Orthodox Christians ...".
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2011, 10:00:32 AM »

This is great life in after life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxU3LDDMeaM&feature=related
Logged
Timon
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,490



« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2011, 10:00:44 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been

I think it is traditionally believed that he painted icons.
Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2011, 10:17:40 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been

I think it is traditionally believed that he painted icons.

St. Luke, First painter of the Virgin Mary

Luke's biography does not contain abundant miracles and dangerous travels. He is presented as a well-educated man, who in Greece and Egypt studied disciplines such as grammar, rhetoric, poetry, ethics and logic. He was a physician and a painter, who died peacefully in Achaia (a late Roman province embracing the Peloponnesus and central Greece, with the capital in Corinth). His relics are said to have been transferred to Constantinople by St. Artemis under the reign of Constantine II.

Legend has it that St. Luke was the first artist to paint the portrait of the Virgin Mary. The monasteries of Hodegon and Soumela claim that the icons of the Virgin Mary in their possession are Luke's paintings. Hodegon Monastery is located in Constantinople close to Hagia Sophia. It was founded the 5th Century by the Empress Pulcheria to house precious relics, which later included the Virgin Hodegetria. Soumela monastery is located on the face of a cliff on the western slopes of Mt. Melas in Asia Minor. The mastery was dedicated to the Virgin; Its origins date back to the 4th Century and its beginnings are attributed to two Athenian monks, Barnabas and Sophronios, who supposedly discovered in a cave at Soumela an icon of the Virgin painted by Luke. In the 20th Century the monastery was abandoned.

Although portrayed as white haired in the 6th Century Cambridge Gospels, St. Luke appears in most Byzantine portraits as a young man with brown, curly hair, hollow cheeks, and a wispy beard. He is usually shown writing in front of a desk. Occasionally he is accompanied by Paul who supposedly inspired his Gospel; more often he is accompanied by his patron, Theophilus. St. Luke's feast day is on October 18. He is the author of the 3`d Gospel, and the Book of Acts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/iconography/iconhistory.cfm

Interesting reading.
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
jewish voice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 668



« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2011, 11:11:22 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.
 Huh  you might went to pull out your bible again an recheck who Luke was before you keep posting this everywhere like you have been

I think it is traditionally believed that he painted icons.

St. Luke, First painter of the Virgin Mary

Luke's biography does not contain abundant miracles and dangerous travels. He is presented as a well-educated man, who in Greece and Egypt studied disciplines such as grammar, rhetoric, poetry, ethics and logic. He was a physician and a painter, who died peacefully in Achaia (a late Roman province embracing the Peloponnesus and central Greece, with the capital in Corinth). His relics are said to have been transferred to Constantinople by St. Artemis under the reign of Constantine II.

Legend has it that St. Luke was the first artist to paint the portrait of the Virgin Mary. The monasteries of Hodegon and Soumela claim that the icons of the Virgin Mary in their possession are Luke's paintings. Hodegon Monastery is located in Constantinople close to Hagia Sophia. It was founded the 5th Century by the Empress Pulcheria to house precious relics, which later included the Virgin Hodegetria. Soumela monastery is located on the face of a cliff on the western slopes of Mt. Melas in Asia Minor. The mastery was dedicated to the Virgin; Its origins date back to the 4th Century and its beginnings are attributed to two Athenian monks, Barnabas and Sophronios, who supposedly discovered in a cave at Soumela an icon of the Virgin painted by Luke. In the 20th Century the monastery was abandoned.

Although portrayed as white haired in the 6th Century Cambridge Gospels, St. Luke appears in most Byzantine portraits as a young man with brown, curly hair, hollow cheeks, and a wispy beard. He is usually shown writing in front of a desk. Occasionally he is accompanied by Paul who supposedly inspired his Gospel; more often he is accompanied by his patron, Theophilus. St. Luke's feast day is on October 18. He is the author of the 3`d Gospel, and the Book of Acts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/iconography/iconhistory.cfm

Interesting reading.
At least you took sometime to look somethings up I'll give you that but you didn't go deep enough in your search.
My point to Pasadi97 is to not just take some legends an try to post them as facts. First we don't know if he did or didn't paint Mary thats still up for debate second what Luke does outside of the writing of his account that he heard from the people who knew Jesus has no true bases on the faith.
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2011, 06:33:49 AM »

There are no history rules for everything else and history rules for Eastern orthodox Church. There is one history and according with this science, Apostle Luke has painted icons and Church has fought against errors like iconoclasm.

To demonstrate somebody that did not choose baptism for himself and children, to demonstrate that he and his children are not Eastern Orthodox Christians, he should go with children in a pit without light, stay there, in a stinky smell and such and say at the end, I had a great day. Unfortunately this is the future people without baptism prepare for their children. Then I can say, he is not an Eastern Orthodox Christian . "Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."


Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people. This is why I said people are Orthodox Christians in behavior and that they don't choose Eastern orthodox Christianity since they are misguided.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 06:49:46 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2011, 08:15:30 AM »

Next protestants, they should say, why should I get you to doctor to give you several decades when I renounced to immortality....since I choose the teachings of men like Luther, Calvin and Johny that I hold in high esteem against teachings of Church and for sake of the teachings of these men we went outside of Church?

Also Protestant and Romano Catholics should play dice and if the dice run certain probability (Protestant probability should be thousand times smaller than for RC and if denomination renounced baptism, probability to stay outside of pit for s should be around 0) so when that combination comes , that day everybody goes to pit. Then I can say, this man and Children are truly protestants and they have a protestant life style a life style of Protesting the true teachings and Church.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 08:16:06 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2011, 08:16:45 AM »

There are no history rules for everything else and history rules for Eastern orthodox Church. There is one history and according with this science, Apostle Luke has painted icons and Church has fought against errors like iconoclasm.

To demonstrate somebody that did not choose baptism for himself and children, to demonstrate that he and his children are not Eastern Orthodox Christians, he should go with children in a pit without light, stay there, in a stinky smell and such and say at the end, I had a great day. Unfortunately this is the future people without baptism prepare for their children. Then I can say, he is not an Eastern Orthodox Christian . "Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."


Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people. This is why I said people are Orthodox Christians in behavior and that they don't choose Eastern orthodox Christianity since they are misguided.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2011, 10:04:05 AM »

"Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."
Could you provide a link to the source of this block of text, please? 72 hours should be enough time for you to comply with this official request.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,423


fleem
WWW
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2011, 11:49:51 AM »

Quote from: pasadi97
Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people.

What does this mean?  Huh
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2011, 12:17:05 PM »

I really have no idea what pasadi97 is talking about.  Huh  Huh
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2011, 12:28:27 PM »

I don't know how my American brethren baptise; here is a photo from last Sunday at our chruch in Wales. (Pastor on the left.)


From the picture and from what you describe, this is similar to how baptisms are done in Baptist Churches here in the US. I have also seen them performed in rivers and lakes when the weather was warm.

In the Orthodox Church, if it is an adult that is being baptized, either a pool, large font, large tub of water, or even a river or lake will be used. For babies, it is usually a baptismal font in the Church.

 

Here is the Service of Holy Baptism if you are interested in reading it.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2011, 12:39:47 PM »

Abraham went to Hell, ...then moved to heaven.

Is it not true that, before Christ's resurrection, all people went to hell/Hades/Sheol - that is, the same place, whatever word or translation one gives it - and that the way to heaven was opened only at that first Easter? Then all true believers from beforehand were admitted to heaven/Paradise/the Lord's presence?

You are correct. When Christ descended into Hell, he freed the captives and those who believed in God were welcome into Paradise that day.

That is why the Resurrection Icon of Christ shows Him pulling Adam and Eve from the bonds of Hell:



(Note how Christ is grabbing them firmly by the wrist, as if He's saying "I've got you now, and I'm not going to let you go!")

This is also why the Paschal Troparion (Hymn) that is sung multiple times during Paschaltide is as follows:

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!

Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Timon
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,490



« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2011, 12:48:00 PM »

Abraham went to Hell, ...then moved to heaven.

Is it not true that, before Christ's resurrection, all people went to hell/Hades/Sheol - that is, the same place, whatever word or translation one gives it - and that the way to heaven was opened only at that first Easter? Then all true believers from beforehand were admitted to heaven/Paradise/the Lord's presence?

You are correct. When Christ descended into Hell, he freed the captives and those who believed in God were welcome into Paradise that day.

That is why the Resurrection Icon of Christ shows Him pulling Adam and Eve from the bonds of Hell:



(Note how Christ is grabbing them firmly by the wrist, as if He's saying "I've got you now, and I'm not going to let you go!")

This is also why the Paschal Troparion (Hymn) that is sung multiple times during Paschaltide is as follows:

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!



One of my favorite icons!
Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2011, 06:19:58 AM »

  [img]

It's a good job we Baptists don't dress our people the same way as you do when they are being baptised!  Smiley
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2011, 06:21:36 AM »

One of my favorite icons!

I like it.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2011, 08:00:17 AM »

There are no history rules for everything else and history rules for Eastern orthodox Church. There is one history and according with this science, Apostle Luke has painted icons and Church has fought against errors like iconoclasm.

To demonstrate somebody that did not choose baptism for himself and children, to demonstrate that he and his children are not Eastern Orthodox Christians, he should go with children in a pit without light, stay there, in a stinky smell and such and say at the end, I had a great day. Unfortunately this is the future people without baptism prepare for their children. Then I can say, he is not an Eastern Orthodox Christian . "Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."


Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people. This is why I said people are Orthodox Christians in behavior and that they don't choose Eastern orthodox Christianity since they are misguided.

This is the source for nth time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

Unfortunately you see people speaking not knowing what they speak about, like people speaking about the greatness of Islam and living Eastern orthodox Christian life...... would they be granted to see in this life , one day now of what Muslims must endure in after life , just to see like on a TV , they would choose their words. THIS IS MY IDEA OF A MOVIE....taking religions one by one and showing what they prepare for in after life hopefully God will make such a movie for us and make us understand that is true and force everybody and everyone to the best life in after life.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 08:04:51 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »

Abraham went to Hell, ...then moved to heaven.

Is it not true that, before Christ's resurrection, all people went to hell/Hades/Sheol - that is, the same place, whatever word or translation one gives it - and that the way to heaven was opened only at that first Easter? Then all true believers from beforehand were admitted to heaven/Paradise/the Lord's presence?

You are correct. When Christ descended into Hell, he freed the captives and those who believed in God were welcome into Paradise that day.

That is why the Resurrection Icon of Christ shows Him pulling Adam and Eve from the bonds of Hell:



(Note how Christ is grabbing them firmly by the wrist, as if He's saying "I've got you now, and I'm not going to let you go!")

This is also why the Paschal Troparion (Hymn) that is sung multiple times during Paschaltide is as follows:

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs
Bestowing life!



One of my favorite icons!

The detail in this Icon is amazing, I will have to look for this !
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2011, 10:38:26 AM »

I hope you understand one thing.

Protestantism is an invention starting in 1500+, 1500 years from Jesus. there is no protestant doctrine before 1500. For example Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Church condemned iconoclasm held true by Protestantism.

What "Protestant Doctrine"?  You've been asked this before and you have not answered. You repeat your simple starting date that you put in other threads but don't give any factual information.  What is your personal knowledge or experience with any sort of Protestant Church or what sources have you read that you think are telling the truth? 

What does St. Luke have to do with this subject and how is that any sort of Protestant "doctrine"? 

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2011, 10:43:58 AM »


You posted this link before in another thread along with the one that was supposed to show "hell" but was made of clips from Disney's "Hercules" (1997) which you also posted in this thread.  It's still just a video that someone put together with some texts.  As near as I can tell it has nothing to do with anything EO and neither does a movie very loosely set in Greek mythology. 

These aren't any kind of proof but rather anti-proof to some.

 Undecided
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 10:46:54 AM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2011, 11:00:55 AM »

There are no history rules for everything else and history rules for Eastern orthodox Church. There is one history and according with this science

What does the "Science of History" mean to you, pasadi97?  What are the rules or practices involved? 

There is history and there is pseudo-history and there is legend and there can be things that are partly based on real historical fact and partly not due to misunderstanding or a preference for a story that supports a person's opinions or pet ideas.

I'm not going to address EO beliefs about St. Luke. That's a matter of hagiography.  But your attempt to claim to use the "science of history" without really doing it is what I do take issue with.  You have your own ideas about "Protestants" but do not define them or give supporting evidence or explanations.  Two YouTube videos are not "proof" of your ideas or claims


Quote
To demonstrate somebody that did not choose baptism for himself and children, to demonstrate that he and his children are not Eastern Orthodox Christians, he should go with children in a pit without light, stay there, in a stinky smell and such and say at the end, I had a great day. Unfortunately this is the future people without baptism prepare for their children. Then I can say, he is not an Eastern Orthodox Christian .

Another bit that has nothing to do or is applicable to real human beings. 

Quote
Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people. This is why I said people are Orthodox Christians in behavior and that they don't choose Eastern orthodox Christianity since they are misguided.

Ummm I was under the impression that some good EO "behavors" were charity, mercy and devotion to the Trinity rather than just an desire for material objects.   Huh

"Demonized people" don't want to have a "good" life? 


Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2011, 01:05:41 PM »

There are no history rules for everything else and history rules for Eastern orthodox Church. There is one history and according with this science, Apostle Luke has painted icons and Church has fought against errors like iconoclasm.

To demonstrate somebody that did not choose baptism for himself and children, to demonstrate that he and his children are not Eastern Orthodox Christians, he should go with children in a pit without light, stay there, in a stinky smell and such and say at the end, I had a great day. Unfortunately this is the future people without baptism prepare for their children. Then I can say, he is not an Eastern Orthodox Christian . "Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."


Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people. This is why I said people are Orthodox Christians in behavior and that they don't choose Eastern orthodox Christianity since they are misguided.

This is the source for nth time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol
Thank you. Be advised that every time you quote this source on a different thread, you are required to post a link to the source, since this may be the only one of your threads many people will read.
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2011, 01:10:48 PM »

It's a good job we Baptists don't dress our people the same way as you do when they are being baptised!  Smiley

LOL, only babies are baptized nude. With child and adult baptisms, usually the person will either wear all white clothing, or sometimes wear a bathing suit with a white robe over it.

In the Early Church, all individuals were baptized nude, thus we had female deacons for women who were being baptized. Today, things are done a little differently.  Smiley
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2011, 01:24:01 PM »

There are no history rules for everything else and history rules for Eastern orthodox Church. There is one history and according with this science, Apostle Luke has painted icons and Church has fought against errors like iconoclasm.

To demonstrate somebody that did not choose baptism for himself and children, to demonstrate that he and his children are not Eastern Orthodox Christians, he should go with children in a pit without light, stay there, in a stinky smell and such and say at the end, I had a great day. Unfortunately this is the future people without baptism prepare for their children. Then I can say, he is not an Eastern Orthodox Christian . "Sheol ( /ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[1][2] She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job."


Everybody behaves like an Eastern Orthodox Christian , looking for good car , good house, good schools good everything. Exceptions are demonized people. This is why I said people are Orthodox Christians in behavior and that they don't choose Eastern orthodox Christianity since they are misguided.

This is the source for nth time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

Unfortunately you see people speaking not knowing what they speak about, like people speaking about the greatness of Islam and living Eastern orthodox Christian life...... would they be granted to see in this life , one day now of what Muslims must endure in after life , just to see like on a TV , they would choose their words. THIS IS MY IDEA OF A MOVIE....taking religions one by one and showing what they prepare for in after life hopefully God will make such a movie for us and make us understand that is true and force everybody and everyone to the best life in after life.
However, you haven't answered my claim above that focus on a good afterlife is a Gnostic ideal that is not organic to the Christian faith. Besides, to speak of the afterlife is to make this life the frame of reference for everything else. In the Orthodox tradition, however, we refer everything in this life to the life of the Kingdom that is both now and in the age to come.
Logged
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2011, 01:26:49 PM »

Focus on good is on all religions .
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2011, 01:29:15 PM »

Focus on good is on all religions .
Would you please expound on how this answers anything others have raised on this thread?
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2011, 01:29:25 PM »

Focus on good is on all religions .

pasadi97, I'm not sure if it's a language issue or what, but you are woefully misunderstanding what others on this board are trying to say, and have pitifully defended your arguments while artfully dodging any question presented to you.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 01:39:39 PM by HandmaidenofGod » Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
pasadi97
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 572


« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2011, 01:33:01 PM »

Focus on good is on all religions . So for choosing good I am not a gnostic as I believe it was implied above. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian.

Again . Focus on good is on all religions . The difference is that Eastern orthodox Christianity gives THE BEST for now while many religions give very bad while pretending to give good.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 01:34:00 PM by pasadi97 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2011, 01:37:12 PM »

Focus on good is on all religions . So for choosing good I am not a gnostic as I believe it was implied above. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian.
This little blurb on choosing good has absolutely nothing to do with the substance of my claim that you're preaching Gnostic doctrines.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,396


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2011, 01:57:42 PM »

Perhaps it might help if the apparent gnosticism can be exposed for the benefit of users here.


I met some adherents of gnosticism, and they were openly anti-Christian.
While they claimed that they were searching for the truth, they were into a lot of mysticism and New Age practices.
And most alarmingly, they wanted power like Chi.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 02:00:56 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2011, 02:19:19 PM »

Perhaps it might help if the apparent gnosticism can be exposed for the benefit of users here.


I met some adherents of gnosticism, and they were openly anti-Christian.
While they claimed that they were searching for the truth, they were into a lot of mysticism and New Age practices.
And most alarmingly, they wanted power like Chi.
What I'm pointing out is much more insidious. One doesn't need to be a full-blown Gnostic to profess some Gnostic beliefs. For instance, I've come to recognize that Gnosticism has infected a lot of Protestant thought today, particularly (for this discussion) how many Protestants view life after death (i.e., the ultimate reward for the Christian life being eternal life in heaven as a disembodied spirit--contrast with our Orthodox belief in the resurrection of the dead).

A good article on this can be found here: http://josephpatterson.wordpress.com/2006/10/24/against-the-protestant-gnostics/
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,396


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2011, 03:18:17 PM »

Perhaps it might help if the apparent gnosticism can be exposed for the benefit of users here.


I met some adherents of gnosticism, and they were openly anti-Christian.
While they claimed that they were searching for the truth, they were into a lot of mysticism and New Age practices.
And most alarmingly, they wanted power like Chi.
What I'm pointing out is much more insidious. One doesn't need to be a full-blown Gnostic to profess some Gnostic beliefs. For instance, I've come to recognize that Gnosticism has infected a lot of Protestant thought today, particularly (for this discussion) how many Protestants view life after death (i.e., the ultimate reward for the Christian life being eternal life in heaven as a disembodied spirit--contrast with our Orthodox belief in the resurrection of the dead).

A good article on this can be found here: http://josephpatterson.wordpress.com/2006/10/24/against-the-protestant-gnostics/

I agree. I have also witnessed some so-called Charismatic Christians who believe that unless one is "initiated" into the Baptism of the Spirit by speaking in tongues, then one does not have salvation.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 03:23:26 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2011, 05:07:24 PM »

some so-called Charismatic Christians who believe that unless one is "initiated" into the Baptism of the Spirit by speaking in tongues, then one does not have salvation.

I have heard of such people, but I do not think I have ever met one. I wonder whether anecdotes about them are 'apocryphal'. I have had years of lovely and fruitful fellowship and co-operation with Pentecostal brethren, and preached in their churches, but never personally encountered this.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,396


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2011, 05:12:37 PM »

some so-called Charismatic Christians who believe that unless one is "initiated" into the Baptism of the Spirit by speaking in tongues, then one does not have salvation.

I have heard of such people, but I do not think I have ever met one. I wonder whether anecdotes about them are 'apocryphal'. I have had years of lovely and fruitful fellowship and co-operation with Pentecostal brethren, and preached in their churches, but never personally encountered this.

Unfortunately, they do exist in Southern California.
I too have met lovely Pentecostal Christians, but the ones who believe that speaking in tongues is a manifestation of predestination also believe that if you have faith, you will be healed, and condemn those who remain sick. They need our prayers.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2011, 05:28:08 PM »

...also believe that if you have faith, you will be healed, and condemn those who remain sick. They need our prayers.

So do their "victims", for they then have both their illness and the condemnation of lack of faith. Such preachers trouble those whom the Lord has not troubled.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,396


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2011, 05:47:02 PM »

...also believe that if you have faith, you will be healed, and condemn those who remain sick. They need our prayers.

So do their "victims", for they then have both their illness and the condemnation of lack of faith. Such preachers trouble those whom the Lord has not troubled.

I agree. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2011, 09:50:06 PM »

...also believe that if you have faith, you will be healed, and condemn those who remain sick. They need our prayers.

So do their "victims", for they then have both their illness and the condemnation of lack of faith. Such preachers trouble those whom the Lord has not troubled.
We've had two or three couples here in Oregon each convicted of negligent homicide for refusing to seek medical treatment for a child after their child died of something serious but easily treatable. They were all taught by their church that they were to have faith that God would heal them and their children and that pursuit of medical treatment was borne out of a lack of faith.
Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2011, 03:37:40 AM »

We've had two or three couples ... convicted of negligent homicide for refusing to seek medical treatment for a child after their child died

The same cause of death has been known here in Britain too. Tragic.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2011, 10:21:07 AM »

We've had two or three couples ... convicted of negligent homicide for refusing to seek medical treatment for a child after their child died

The same cause of death has been known here in Britain too. Tragic.

It is extremely tragic when things like this happen, all we can do is pray for them.

Can I make a suggestion?  it seems to me that the person that started this thread does not have a good command of the English language, how about we tone down a bit and use basic English rather than our usual canter.
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,448



« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2011, 03:11:55 PM »

some so-called Charismatic Christians who believe that unless one is "initiated" into the Baptism of the Spirit by speaking in tongues, then one does not have salvation.

I have heard of such people, but I do not think I have ever met one. I wonder whether anecdotes about them are 'apocryphal'. I have had years of lovely and fruitful fellowship and co-operation with Pentecostal brethren, and preached in their churches, but never personally encountered this.

I can assure you that such people are not imaginary. I have met many such and they are fairly common in my neck of the woods. As a matter of fact, when I was a Lutheran, some members of my congregation became charismatic and caused a major church row, what with their assertions that those of us who had not received the gift of speaking in tongues were not only not Real Christians(tm), but were not saved either. Of course, in time-honored Protestant fashion, they ended up leaving and starting their own church, which then proceeded to split so many times it eventually ceased to exist.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2011, 05:13:22 PM »

...assertions that those of us who had not received the gift of speaking in tongues were not ...saved

May the Lord deliver them from such delusion! They certainly had far abandoned sola scriptura. I am glad you did not fall for such false and  harmful dogma.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 05:13:43 PM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,448



« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2011, 05:24:54 PM »

...assertions that those of us who had not received the gift of speaking in tongues were not ...saved

May the Lord deliver them from such delusion! They certainly had far abandoned sola scriptura. I am glad you did not fall for such false and  harmful dogma.

Not at all. Or at least, sola scriptura as most people understand it - "every man his own Pope, " that is, what the Bible says is what I interpret it to mean. You could wave Scripture under their noses about the different gifts until your arm got tired. The only response from them was a sort of pitying spiritual oneupmanship.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2011, 09:21:18 AM »

You could wave Scripture under their noses ... until your arm got tired.

You and I might indeed wave scripture, but they would be waiving it! Have they not made salvation dependent, not on faith in Christ, but on faith in Christ + a recent and minority view of the charismata? Whether the Evangelical Faith be true or false does not come into it: the fact is, we have never made salvation dependent on experience of the charismatic gifts. That is a new and false mutation which takes people out of both your camp and ours.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,396


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2011, 02:17:04 PM »

You could wave Scripture under their noses ... until your arm got tired.

You and I might indeed wave scripture, but they would be waiving it! Have they not made salvation dependent, not on faith in Christ, but on faith in Christ + a recent and minority view of the charismata? Whether the Evangelical Faith be true or false does not come into it: the fact is, we have never made salvation dependent on experience of the charismatic gifts. That is a new and false mutation which takes people out of both your camp and ours.

Indeed, those Pentecostals (especially the Oneness variety) are waiving most of the scriptures by focusing on a few portions and then blowing those verses out of proportion.

That is why we call them Rootless Christians. They have lost contact with the Apostolic Church, lack Apostolic Succession, and so fall into every possible error imaginable.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on them and save them.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 02:17:32 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,448



« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2011, 02:51:11 PM »

You could wave Scripture under their noses ... until your arm got tired.

You and I might indeed wave scripture, but they would be waiving it! Have they not made salvation dependent, not on faith in Christ, but on faith in Christ + a recent and minority view of the charismata? Whether the Evangelical Faith be true or false does not come into it: the fact is, we have never made salvation dependent on experience of the charismatic gifts. That is a new and false mutation which takes people out of both your camp and ours.

Indeed, those Pentecostals (especially the Oneness variety) are waiving most of the scriptures by focusing on a few portions and then blowing those verses out of proportion.

That is why we call them Rootless Christians. They have lost contact with the Apostolic Church, lack Apostolic Succession, and so fall into every possible error imaginable.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on them and save them.

But isn't that the reality of (at least in American Protestantism today) and the result of what we might call a Protestant hermaneutic - focus on a few verses (usually out of context) and then blowing them out of proportion to form a new sect?

You may see it as a new and false mutation but, based on Christian history and the Fathers, that is exactly what Protestantism and/or evangelicalism looks to us.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,396


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2011, 03:05:12 PM »

You could wave Scripture under their noses ... until your arm got tired.

You and I might indeed wave scripture, but they would be waiving it! Have they not made salvation dependent, not on faith in Christ, but on faith in Christ + a recent and minority view of the charismata? Whether the Evangelical Faith be true or false does not come into it: the fact is, we have never made salvation dependent on experience of the charismatic gifts. That is a new and false mutation which takes people out of both your camp and ours.

Indeed, those Pentecostals (especially the Oneness variety) are waiving most of the scriptures by focusing on a few portions and then blowing those verses out of proportion.

That is why we call them Rootless Christians. They have lost contact with the Apostolic Church, lack Apostolic Succession, and so fall into every possible error imaginable.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on them and save them.

But isn't that the reality of (at least in American Protestantism today) and the result of what we might call a Protestant hermaneutic - focus on a few verses (usually out of context) and then blowing them out of proportion to form a new sect?

You may see it as a new and false mutation but, based on Christian history and the Fathers, that is exactly what Protestantism and/or evangelicalism looks to us.

Really, there are no new heresies, but only rehashed heresies.

Gnosticism and Arianism are on the rise today.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 03:05:45 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,448



« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2011, 05:48:01 PM »

You could wave Scripture under their noses ... until your arm got tired.

You and I might indeed wave scripture, but they would be waiving it! Have they not made salvation dependent, not on faith in Christ, but on faith in Christ + a recent and minority view of the charismata? Whether the Evangelical Faith be true or false does not come into it: the fact is, we have never made salvation dependent on experience of the charismatic gifts. That is a new and false mutation which takes people out of both your camp and ours.

Indeed, those Pentecostals (especially the Oneness variety) are waiving most of the scriptures by focusing on a few portions and then blowing those verses out of proportion.

That is why we call them Rootless Christians. They have lost contact with the Apostolic Church, lack Apostolic Succession, and so fall into every possible error imaginable.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on them and save them.

But isn't that the reality of (at least in American Protestantism today) and the result of what we might call a Protestant hermaneutic - focus on a few verses (usually out of context) and then blowing them out of proportion to form a new sect?

You may see it as a new and false mutation but, based on Christian history and the Fathers, that is exactly what Protestantism and/or evangelicalism looks to us.

Really, there are no new heresies, but only rehashed heresies.

Gnosticism and Arianism are on the rise today.

Exactly.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Thankful
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 263



« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2011, 12:17:48 AM »

You and I might indeed wave scripture, but they would be waiving it!

Not at all.  Having come out of the "word of faith" pentecostal movement where this belief is very common, they would tell you that the Scriptures say exactly what they are teaching, and they can show you the relevant Scriptures, too.  It's there, and it can be interpreted to mean exactly what they're saying -- IF allowed to isolate Scriptures, dismiss other ones (or interpret them differently), and remove themselves entirely from any historical church. 
Logged

Ninjaly Awesome
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catachumen
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 87



« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2011, 02:04:00 AM »

Quote
Can I make a suggestion?  it seems to me that the person that started this thread does not have a good command of the English language, how about we tone down a bit and use basic English rather than our usual canter.

I'm sorry, but all I could do was laugh when I read this statement. It's understandable since I have Chinese in my signature. However, I assure you that I am an American (born and raised) with a Bachelor's degree in English (hence why your misunderstanding is so funny!).  Cheesy

Also, I've since become a catachumen and I now believe the Orthodox church's teaching on baptism.
Logged

饥 渴 慕 义 的 人 有 福 了 ! 因 为 他 们 必 得 饱 足 。

馬 太 福 音 5:6
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,915


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2011, 03:13:44 AM »

Quote
Can I make a suggestion?  it seems to me that the person that started this thread does not have a good command of the English language, how about we tone down a bit and use basic English rather than our usual canter.

I'm sorry, but all I could do was laugh when I read this statement. It's understandable since I have Chinese in my signature. However, I assure you that I am an American (born and raised) with a Bachelor's degree in English (hence why your misunderstanding is so funny!).  Cheesy

Also, I've since become a catachumen and I now believe the Orthodox church's teaching on baptism.
I somehow suspect the real mistake is believing that pasadi97 started this thread. laugh
Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2011, 05:05:23 AM »

the Scriptures say exactly what they are teaching, ... IF allowed to isolate Scriptures, dismiss other ones (or interpret them differently), and remove themselves entirely from any historical church. 

I couldn't have put it better myself. Quite so.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,448



« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2011, 12:03:24 PM »

the Scriptures say exactly what they are teaching, ... IF allowed to isolate Scriptures, dismiss other ones (or interpret them differently), and remove themselves entirely from any historical church. 

I couldn't have put it better myself. Quite so.

I am delighted, though surprised, to hear you say so, David. Since this is the basis of Protestantism and its Evangelical branch. Are you telling us that you acknowledge the historic Church? In that case, may I be the first to welcome you home!
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,396


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2011, 12:40:46 PM »

the Scriptures say exactly what they are teaching, ... IF allowed to isolate Scriptures, dismiss other ones (or interpret them differently), and remove themselves entirely from any historical church. 

I couldn't have put it better myself. Quite so.

Welcome to the historical Apostolic Orthodox Church!
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2011, 01:05:30 PM »

Welcome to the historical Apostolic Orthodox Church!

Thank you. It's good to be a member!
 Wink
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2011, 01:07:51 PM »

Are you telling us that you acknowledge the historic Church?

Yes - and I'm happy to say that, corresponding so long with you good people, has persuaded me that the Eastern Orthodox Church is a real part of it!

(So are we Baptists, of course.)
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,448



« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2011, 02:36:41 PM »

Are you telling us that you acknowledge the historic Church?

Yes - and I'm happy to say that, corresponding so long with you good people, has persuaded me that the Eastern Orthodox Church is a real part of it!

(So are we Baptists, of course.)

Oh, dear. I knew it was too good to be true. We still have work to do, I see, starting with your persistent misunderstanding. I refer, of course, to the fact that the Orthodox Church is not a part of the historic Church - it is that Church.

While the Baptists, good and God-loving people though they may be, are not.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2011, 02:59:40 PM »

We still have work to do, ... part of the historic Church ... Baptists, good and God-loving people though they may be, are not.

Banter aside, y'all have achieved a good deal already. Twenty years ago, I think I would have thought it rather unlikely that an Orthodox was also a real Christian. That has entirely changed. Two things effected this: one was the writings of some who post on this Forum, the other was the book with a title something like The Resurrection of the Church in Albania, which I have at my office not here at home and am not fully sure of the title and author - I think it was by Jim Forrester, aided by the late Mrs Hoppe. I felt one would have to be purblind not to see the hand of God in what is recorded in that book.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2011, 03:10:48 PM »

We still have work to do, ... part of the historic Church ... Baptists, good and God-loving people though they may be, are not.

Banter aside, y'all have achieved a good deal already. Twenty years ago, I think I would have thought it rather unlikely that an Orthodox was also a real Christian. That has entirely changed. Two things effected this: one was the writings of some who post on this Forum, the other was the book with a title something like The Resurrection of the Church in Albania, which I have at my office not here at home and am not fully sure of the title and author - I think it was by Jim Forrester, aided by the late Mrs Hoppe. I felt one would have to be purblind not to see the hand of God in what is recorded in that book.

Maybe you would like to listen to Orthodox radio and podcasts, there is a English priest on there called Fr Gregory Hallam that does a podcast called A voice from the Isles.  http://ancientfaith.com

20 years hay, not bad going  Wink
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 03:12:21 PM by JR » Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2011, 04:34:24 PM »

Maybe you would like to listen to Orthodox radio and podcasts, there is a English priest on there ...

Yes, I'd like that - if it's anywhere near as good as some of the Orthodox books I've read. However, I am far too old to know what a podcast is - food the Prodigal Son threw (or rather cast) to the swine in the days of his absence from home? But the radio is a good idea. I shall click on the link.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2011, 04:44:07 PM »

what a podcast is

Audio recording posted on the internet that can be accessed at anytime. Kind of like a blog, but in sound instead of writing. Ancient Faith Radio has some pretty interesting ones on there.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2011, 06:03:23 PM »

what a podcast is

Audio recording posted on the internet

Our grandson plugs earphones into the computer when he comes (usually most weeks): I'll get him to show me.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #89 on: December 22, 2011, 05:46:56 AM »

It strikes me that there is a sort of mirror-image effect here. I suspect there are a good number of Baptists and other Evangelicals who find it hard to think that an Orthodox is possibly also a Christian (though if pressed, they would probably just about grant it); reading posts by some on the Forum, I gain the impression that almost the exact opposite is also true - that there are Orthodox who consider it very unlikely that any of us Baptists &c are true Christians (that is, are "in Christ" as the scriptures express it). In fact, I believe that there are a good number of Orthodox and of Baptists who are in Christ - and sadly, a good number of both who are not, despite bearing the name. Of the first, it is as it is somewhere written, that Christ is not ashamed to call them brethren: such, as I wrote yesterday, was the clear impression a certain book about the Orthodox Church in Albania under Communism gave me. But what was also remarkable to me about that book was the close similarity between it and the books of Richard Wurmbrand about the Baptists of Romania during the same period. Once again, it would be hard to deny that our Lord was acknowledging them also as his, and living and working among them. I feel a bit like Peter when confronted with Cornelius: if Christ acknowledges them as his, how can I doubt that they are my brethren? Indeed, why should I even wish to?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:48:36 AM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,448



« Reply #90 on: December 22, 2011, 10:49:50 AM »

It seems to me that you are asking the wrong questions. I hope that we are not deciding who is Christian and who is not. Only God knows for sure, and He has not given me that particular responsibility - good thing too, or else a lot of people would be in big trouble, you betcha. You have heard us say, over and over, that we know where the Church, the Body of Christ, is (and has been for a couple of millenia, give or take) - but we don't know where it isn't.
This is the crucial point. The Orthodox Church is the Faith given by our Lord and Savior to the Apostles. Baptists, especially the American variety, appear to believe, preach and teach things that were not part of this deposit of faith - as we have discussed at great length on other threads.

Does this mean that Baptists are not Christian? Or our brethren? Or not good and Christ-loving people or that the Holy Spirit does not in some way work in their lives and hearts? My guess would be that they are all these things, but they are not part of the Apostolic Church, nor would most of them wish to be, if asked.

Again, we know where the Church, the Body of Christ is, in all its fullness and truth.

"It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth...* They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way.

With reference to the above question, it is particularly instructive to recall the answer once given to an inquirer by the Blessed Theophan the Recluse. The blessed one replied more or less thus: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins..." Metropolitan Philaret



Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Timon
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,490



« Reply #91 on: December 22, 2011, 11:38:44 AM »

Quote
You have heard us say, over and over, that we know where the Church, the Body of Christ, is (and has been for a couple of millenia, give or take) - but we don't know where it isn't.


well said, katherine!

and david... most of the people i know are baptist, or some other form or protestant, and i would never say they arent real Christians.  i think that any of these people, including yourself, would agree with what is written in the Creed even though reciting it is not a part of their regular worship services.  its not my call to decide who is a Christian, but i would think that if you call upon Jesus for salvation and believe what the Creed says that would make you a Christian. i guess the point is that there is no doubt that the protestant church has strayed from the original teachings/practices of the Apostolic church. personally, i dont think it makes those people bad because many of them dont know the difference, especially here in America. i think they are lacking in the completeness that Orthodoxy offers, but I dont think they are necessarily lacking what is necessary for their salvation.

just a thought.
Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #92 on: December 22, 2011, 11:41:48 AM »

who is Christian and who is not. Only God knows for sure,

A hearty amen to that.

Quote
and He has not given me that particular responsibility

A qualified amen to that! Thing is, if we know all men need to be saved (one of the "four alls of Methodism"), then we ought to try to discern, humbly and with godly concern, who is not "in Christ", for we need to call them to him and to do our best, with God's help through our prayers, to make the way of salvation plain to them.

Quote
You have heard us say, over and over, that we know where the Church, the Body of Christ, is...but we don't know where it isn't.

Not quite true: I have read these words from some of you, but from the 'pens' of others I have read much more strongly exclusive positions. Some of you seem to know where it isn't.

Quote
Baptists ... are not part of the Apostolic Church,

In the understanding you have of that term, which you rightly capitalise (or, I suppose, capitalize, seeing where you live!) we are not; but we are "part of the Apostolic Church" in the understanding we have of that term.

Once again, it seems that we stand in mirror images of each other's position.

Quote
"It is self evident, however, that ... there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy."

Hmmm... not sure that's true in my own case; not "personal and conscious renunciation" in the sense of writing you all off as a bunch of renegades who have robbed the world of Christ, but certainly of long and careful weighing of the Baptist position, and accepting it, not as perfect, but as the nearest currently available expression of Christianity in my time and place to New Testament practice. (Of course, you would tell me to commute to Chester to church, to the Orthodox, but then in my ecclesiology - and, more importantly, soteriology -  I would be moving further from the NT model.)

Tomorrow I must away to collect the pork and steak for Christmas, and I hope to couple it with a walk in the Long Mynd, plus later on my wife from her office party, so I may not "see you" all till after Christmas. If that be so, it is time to wish you all a happy, blessed and Christ-centred Christmastime.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 11:44:24 AM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,448



« Reply #93 on: December 22, 2011, 12:01:09 PM »

Tomorrow I must away to collect the pork and steak for Christmas,

Mmmmmm....meat! Wait a minute, I was going to wish you a Merry Christmas also, but now I'm drooling just thinking about eating meat...or eggnog...or cheese...or....

Give me a minute to control myself!
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:02:16 PM by katherineofdixie » Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2011, 12:12:15 PM »

I'm drooling just thinking about eating meat...or eggnog...or cheese...or....

Give me a minute to control myself!

Getting off the theme of baptism - we thought we'd wait till New Year for turkey, and have rare breed pork on the bone for Christmas Day, rump steak when our son and his young lady visit... and of course some excellent rich cheese at other times of day. I once read in a piece of Catholic writing of worshipping God with feasting. A blessed idea! (And our American Baptist friends certainly know how to eat well - though they don't drink.)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:13:35 PM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Mivac
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 247


« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2011, 01:37:26 PM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.

Same old arguments, and what I have read same old rebuttals.  As a former Baptist, we viewed baptism as a witness to things that already have taken place, much like a marriage ceremony.  I no longer view it in such a way.  I do still see baptism as a marriage ceremony, but like marriage it is more than just symbolic.   In my marriage to my wife, I seen myself dying to myself and being truly joined to her and she with me in our flesh/body, until that time we may have loved each other, cared for each other, even sacrificed for the other, but we still were only dating and such things were very limited/limiting until our wedding day.  Anyone knows, especially those who did not live together, the day of marriage is an extreme change of living.  So is our baptism, until we are baptised, we are only courting, dating, etc., Christ and His Church which limits us individually and communitally.  A true change occurs, not just symbolic, but a true internal change, we become one, and like marriage we strive for deeper oneness and unity.  So, I see baptism, just as I see marriage, in relatioinship, in that a regeneration occurs, a change in ourselves and our very life, we become truly something we were not before.

Would you say to a couple who has been together 2 years, 10 years, etc., who has not been married, that they are married, joined together?  How can we say the same for those who are not baptised, oh go ahead, don't worry, it is ok to say you live for Christ but not truly joined to Him?  What if we changed baptism to marriage and Christ to spouse?  Do we give the same answer?
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2011, 02:41:57 PM »

As a former Baptist, we viewed baptism as a witness to things that already have taken place, much like a marriage ceremony.

I remember my Baptist sunday school teacher comparing baptism to not the ceremony, but the ring. "Getting saved" was the ceremony in which we were married to Christ and baptism was the ring, which was only a sign that the marriage had already taken place.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2011, 04:52:42 PM »

"Getting saved" was the ceremony in which we were married to Christ and baptism was the ring, which was only a sign that the marriage had already taken place.

Yes, I think that sums it up pretty accurately. I'm not saying it's the complete gamut of all we teach about baptism, but as far as it goes, it seems to describe one aspect of it. There is of course also the burial with Christ and rising with him, which has the advantage of being a biblical analogy; but the wedding ring analogy is good as far as it goes. I guess no illustration is complete and perfect, covering every aspect of what it illustrates.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2011, 05:50:12 PM »

"Getting saved" was the ceremony in which we were married to Christ and baptism was the ring, which was only a sign that the marriage had already taken place.
Yes, I think that sums it up pretty accurately. I'm not saying it's the complete gamut of all we teach about baptism, but as far as it goes, it seems to describe one aspect of it. There is of course also the burial with Christ and rising with him, which has the advantage of being a biblical analogy; but the wedding ring analogy is good as far as it goes.

The Orthodox view in comparison to the traditional Baptist view, following the marriage analogy, would be that baptism is the wedding ceremony where we are united to Christ through being buried in His death and raised up in newness of life. I will give Baptists credit for one thing concerning the sacraments/ordinances, according to everything I've read concerning the order in which things are done, you guys do teach that one should not approach the Lord's Supper if not first baptized. It seems to suggest a certain reverence toward and importance of what you believe to be "signs of what already exists".

Quote
I guess no illustration is complete and perfect, covering every aspect of what it illustrates.

I agree. It really makes you appreciate Christ's ability to perfectly convey spiritual truth in His parables.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Ninjaly Awesome
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catachumen
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 87



« Reply #99 on: January 01, 2012, 10:11:44 PM »

One of the big things keeping me from becoming Orthodox is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. In looking at the issue of baptism, I try to understand it by approaching the scriptures as a unified whole. As far as I understand it, we are received into the church by baptism but regeneration happens before baptism when the person places their genuine trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I use the example of Abraham to make a very simplified argument:

1. Abraham was clearly justified before circumcision when he put his faith in God ala Romans 4:9-10.
2. Baptism replaced circumcision.
3. Therefore, regeneration (the beginning of a person's salvation) happens before the actual baptism when the person places their trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have more to it than that, of course, but I'd like to start this thread with what I've written above.

Same old arguments, and what I have read same old rebuttals.  As a former Baptist, we viewed baptism as a witness to things that already have taken place, much like a marriage ceremony.  I no longer view it in such a way.  I do still see baptism as a marriage ceremony, but like marriage it is more than just symbolic.   In my marriage to my wife, I seen myself dying to myself and being truly joined to her and she with me in our flesh/body, until that time we may have loved each other, cared for each other, even sacrificed for the other, but we still were only dating and such things were very limited/limiting until our wedding day.  Anyone knows, especially those who did not live together, the day of marriage is an extreme change of living.  So is our baptism, until we are baptised, we are only courting, dating, etc., Christ and His Church which limits us individually and communitally.  A true change occurs, not just symbolic, but a true internal change, we become one, and like marriage we strive for deeper oneness and unity.  So, I see baptism, just as I see marriage, in relatioinship, in that a regeneration occurs, a change in ourselves and our very life, we become truly something we were not before.

Would you say to a couple who has been together 2 years, 10 years, etc., who has not been married, that they are married, joined together?  How can we say the same for those who are not baptised, oh go ahead, don't worry, it is ok to say you live for Christ but not truly joined to Him?  What if we changed baptism to marriage and Christ to spouse?  Do we give the same answer?

Bravo! Good response!

But you have to realize that I was an inquirer when I made that post and now I'm a catachumen.  angel

You're absolutely right, though. Just because a couple has been together for years doesn't make them married. There has to be the wedding and the true joining of each other in the ceremony.
Logged

饥 渴 慕 义 的 人 有 福 了 ! 因 为 他 们 必 得 饱 足 。

馬 太 福 音 5:6
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,847


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #100 on: January 02, 2012, 07:10:25 AM »

Just because a couple has been together for years doesn't make them married. There has to be the wedding and the true joining of each other in the ceremony.

You are right, and I think any Baptist would agree with you entirely. However, it must be said that the analogy is not a perfect one, nor indeed a biblical one, and should not be pressed too far. Christianity is not determined by the culture of a particular time or place, for its principles are timeless - and one of them (we agree, I think) is that all Chistians are commanded to be baptised. But marriage practices do differ from place to place and age to age, and whereas as an Englishman I entirely agree that a Christian man and woman must rightly be formally married and not 'live in sin' as the phrase is, I cannot be certain that this is as universal in every age and place as the requirement to be baptised.

The other matter I would cautiously mention is this: that whereas we know what Christians are required to do (in this thread, be baptised), and we should exhort and persuade all believers to obey the Lord in this, I am hesitant about the value of speculating about the state or fate of believers who do not obey it.

In writing this, I am not writing of believers' baptism (though, of course, that is the only baptism I recognise as proper), but for the sake of this post am not extending my thoughts beyond the concept of baptism, whether infant or believers'. I know saintly Christians who were "baptised" as infants; I think they should now be immersed publicly as believers; but I seldom speculate concerning the Lord's thoughts about them, for in their consciences they are indeed baptised believers. They must stand or fall by their own Master, as must totally unbaptised people like Quakers or Salvation Army people, even though you and I both think, in our own ways, that such should submit to baptism.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.306 seconds with 129 queries.