Author Topic: Motherhood  (Read 3373 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline William T

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,919
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2016, 08:47:41 PM »
These women are everywhere. They are our neighbors, our friends, our sisters, our co-workers, our cousins. They have no use for our advice or opinions. Their wombs are their own. Let’s respect that.

Their wombs belong to God as does the rest of their person. A Christian society absolutely has an interest in how it's members live and the choices they make, especially in this particular area. Individualism is self-worship.

Sometimes I feel like I've stumbled onto the ISIS/DAESH discussion board by mistake.  :-\

I don't know if this is a "grass is greener" sentiment, but in my minds eye, I've always looked at Caligula and Genghis Khan as much more interesting, respectable, restrained, and humane than self-anointed busy bodies.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 08:48:30 PM by William T »

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,481
  • Live slow, die whenever, become one with the Force
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2016, 04:06:14 AM »
I personally think how it's truly amazing how threads about gays and women seem to be a recurring theme here.
We should rename the site "minoritytraumadiscussion.net".

Except women are not a minority. 8)

Feel free to not read any threads about gays or women. Go give the man thread some love. :)

Uuuh... being a minority is not necessarily about numbers...

Meh. Take it up with the dictionary.

That thread huh. You guys went all that way?
I'm giving a thumbs up just out of the effort.

We like saving other people effort. We're considerate like that.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 04:07:41 AM by Arachne »
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline Svartzorn

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 616
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek A.Diocese of B. Aires & S. America
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2016, 07:43:33 AM »
The effort? I'm no fisherman, sugar.
A feminist recommending a dictionary? Now that's something you don't see every day ;D
Death to the world dodos.

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,481
  • Live slow, die whenever, become one with the Force
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2016, 08:17:27 AM »
A feminist recommending a dictionary? Now that's something you don't see every day ;D

You lived to see that, too. Officially special, lad. 8)
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline Eruvande

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 396
  • Faith: Anglican
  • Jurisdiction: Worcestershire
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2016, 08:50:48 PM »
My bleeding liberal feminist heart thought it was a beautiful exhortation. Kind of baffled that it became a ' But menz' thread. I don't have the balls Arachne has posting stuff that asks people to be thoughtful and kind, perhaps the reaction she got is why I don't post much here at all.  ???
Clumsily walking a narrow path and getting most of it wrong, but I'm still walking...

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,438
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2016, 08:59:56 PM »
These women are everywhere. They are our neighbors, our friends, our sisters, our co-workers, our cousins. They have no use for our advice or opinions. Their wombs are their own. Let’s respect that.

Their wombs belong to God as does the rest of their person. A Christian society absolutely has an interest in how it's members live and the choices they make, especially in this particular area. Individualism is self-worship.

Sometimes I feel like I've stumbled onto the ISIS/DAESH discussion board by mistake.  :-\

I don't know if this is a "grass is greener" sentiment, but in my minds eye, I've always looked at Caligula and Genghis Khan as much more interesting, respectable, restrained, and humane than self-anointed busy bodies.

How do you sleep with all that wit coursing thru you?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,438
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2016, 09:02:53 PM »
These women are everywhere. They are our neighbors, our friends, our sisters, our co-workers, our cousins. They have no use for our advice or opinions. Their wombs are their own. Let’s respect that.

Their wombs belong to God as does the rest of their person. A Christian society absolutely has an interest in how it's members live and the choices they make, especially in this particular area. Individualism is self-worship.

Thank you. For a while it seemed the thread was a race between the sexes into impiety.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline William T

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,919
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2016, 12:37:31 AM »
These women are everywhere. They are our neighbors, our friends, our sisters, our co-workers, our cousins. They have no use for our advice or opinions. Their wombs are their own. Let’s respect that.

Their wombs belong to God as does the rest of their person. A Christian society absolutely has an interest in how it's members live and the choices they make, especially in this particular area. Individualism is self-worship.

Sometimes I feel like I've stumbled onto the ISIS/DAESH discussion board by mistake.  :-\

I don't know if this is a "grass is greener" sentiment, but in my minds eye, I've always looked at Caligula and Genghis Khan as much more interesting, respectable, restrained, and humane than self-anointed busy bodies.

How do you sleep with all that wit coursing thru you?

You mean sincerity coursing through me?  It's an honest sentiment.  If it's wrong, so be it.  I don't trust my sincerity or sentiments all too much anyway.  Maybe I was reasoning by thinking of comparing systems?  Who knows?  I don't trust my reason all too much either anyway.   So take that for what it is.  Maybe that's what makes it witty.  Maybe that's why I sleep so well.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 12:43:23 AM by William T »

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,438
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2016, 01:10:44 AM »
You've just held some of your neighbors worse than Genghis Khan. It's not possible for such a post to be "sincerity." And look at me -- dum as a doorknob, playing along.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline William T

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,919
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2016, 01:27:49 AM »
You've just held some of your neighbors worse than Genghis Khan. It's not possible for such a post to be "sincerity." And look at me -- dum as a doorknob, playing along.

Evil is banal, and my neighbors and myself are capable of it..Khan is slightly less banal than Nazis, Commies, ISIS and other busy bodies because he isn't acting like some possessed self anointed moral crusader.  There is at least some level of a thrill there.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 01:28:50 AM by William T »

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,187
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2016, 12:31:54 PM »
Saint Alexander Nevsky picked the khan over the Teutonic knights, so William T might be on to something here.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Ainnir

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 615
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2016, 04:08:35 PM »
I didn't get that at all.  What I got was that the subject should not be broached. I do not believe that.  Individual actions have consequences for all of us over time. I someone chooses to have children that has a consequence. If they do not have children that has a consequence.  There are individual stories of tragedy and hope and despair.  I think the difference is between a choice and an unforeseen event like the inability to conceive, birth defects or the death of a child.  The latter overwhelmingly calls for respecting the privacy of the family.  However there is always going to be tension between a societies self interest in a family's decisions and that families ability to make a decision in their self interest,

I can see how it would come across as labeling it a taboo subject, and I guess it resonates a little differently with me.  Since the post quoted in the OP covered many facets of this subject (from none to many to infertility), I really think it was a nudge toward awareness and a call for kindness and gentleness (both fruits of the Spirit).  Thanks to a general penchant for gossip, and our megaphone social media, we as a society seem to think that we can take our soap boxes and pop them down anywhere and make anyone a captive audience.  I think perhaps fewer, more carefully chosen words on any subject wouldn't hurt.  Especially in person, where the receiving end can't just hit the power button or click "ignore."

Being on the "wanting more and can't" end of the spectrum, and having received many unsolicited comments at an incredibly devastating time of my life, I can absolutely say it is heaps of salt in invisible wounds.  Sometimes it felt not only poured, but ground in for good measure.  Most of the time it was unintentional, from a cashier, person in line, or someone at church, but the unintentional, completely unwitting nature didn't make the impact any less painful or the person any less adamant.  They didn't mean to or know what they were doing, but it hurt and I had nothing and no one to help process any of it.  At the time, I just wanted people to shut up.  Or if they couldn't do that, at least ask me what I thought or wanted regarding my own life.  Other comments came from people that were closer and should have known better and either felt they knew better, or were trying to make me feel better, like how people often say dumb and hurtful things after the loss of a loved one.  However, now I can look at all of that and realize that a) others are experiencing similar (or greater) pain and isolation for a myriad of reasons, and b) I've dished out far dumber and far more hurtful comments and should both hold my tongue more often and forgive more easily.  Though I screw up pretty regularly.   :-[

I don't disagree that this should be a social conversation, because yes, the family--whatever size--does affect society in a cumulative fashion.  If it's possible to have a gentle, detached, and non-accusatory conversation, great!  But as I said, small talk and soap boxes are better directed elsewhere.  It's not the only subject that deserves careful consideration, either.  There are many conversation topics that would be best treated with kindness and gentleness.  Things I would never think of, I'm sure, because I'm not <insert life struggle here>. 

There are so many points on the spectrum between "refusing to have any" and "having as many as possible" and a hundred reasons for any given situation--many are painful and personal and all get lost in the binary debate.  One of the things I've found so lovely about Orthodoxy is its emphasis on spiritual motherhood and fatherhood, which supersedes biological boundaries.  It's quite unique in that, I think.  I've found it helpful in getting a handle on my own thinking and situation.

Anyway, a long explanation as to why I probably interpreted the OP in a different light.   :)

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 40,762
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2016, 05:46:52 PM »
I understand that it is their wombs and that every story is different.  However let me introduce another side to this.  There is a saying that demographics is destiny.  Enough wombs that do not bear children mean the death of the civilization.  Japan and Western Europe are good examples of that.  No matter how much the sentiment may be 'its their wombs' civilization is always going to have an interest in what occurs there.  Eggs are dear.  Sperm is cheap.
not that cheap. Fatherless children do not uphold civilization.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Quinault

  • Did you drink water today?
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,623
  • What about frogs? I like frogs!
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2016, 06:24:10 PM »
We waited until the last second to announced our 7th child's pregnancy. My own parents have been openly hostile about our family size since child 5.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,438
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2016, 08:24:12 PM »
We waited until the last second to announced our 7th child's pregnancy. My own parents have been openly hostile about our family size since child 5.

You yourself came from a small family, obviously.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline RichC

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2016, 11:08:32 PM »
iamisry you did not get my last two sentences.  Women can only produce a relatively limited number of eggs.  Men produce many sperm.  Hence eggs are relatively scare and sperm plentiful. It had nothing to do with fatherless sons. Sorry if I was vague.

To the OP:  OK no problem. I did misunderstand.  To me its just a matter of common courtesy to not inquire about those things unless u are related or a spouse.

We are so quick to get into our foxholes and shoot at each other.  Especially on this site.  This is very disappointing and stops me from posting subjects for discussion.  Im just not putting up with it  the older I get.


Offline Indocern

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 851
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2016, 01:09:15 PM »
In connection of the quote of Arachne:

My priest anoint women who want to have child and also he give a belt made by him to one woman who cannot have child and she wear it for a while and get pregnant. But of course the woman must be believer.

She probably had sex, too.

This is obviously, but to have a child is a God's job, not everybody who had sex can have a child.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 01:11:37 PM by Indocern »

Offline mike

  • A sexual pervert with limited English reading comprehension
  • Protostrator
  • ***************
  • Posts: 24,866
  • Polish Laser Jesus shooting down schismatics
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2016, 02:46:54 PM »
We waited until the last second to announced our 7th child's pregnancy. My own parents have been openly hostile about our family size since child 5.

Congrats.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
"No one is paying attention to your post reports"
Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline Ainnir

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 615
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2016, 04:50:06 PM »
We waited until the last second to announced our 7th child's pregnancy. My own parents have been openly hostile about our family size since child 5.

Yes, a belated congratulations!  And I'm so sorry to hear that about your parents. 

Offline Iconodule

  • Professor of Cryptopatristics at Miskatonic University
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,187
  • Monsters from the Id
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2016, 04:50:32 PM »
We waited until the last second to announced our 7th child's pregnancy. My own parents have been openly hostile about our family size since child 5.

Yes, a belated congratulations!  And I'm so sorry to hear that about your parents.

+1
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Delusional Overlord
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,176
  • And the cat is back again.
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2016, 09:36:06 PM »
We waited until the last second to announced our 7th child's pregnancy. My own parents have been openly hostile about our family size since child 5.
The first time I read this, I thought you meant your 7th child is pregnant. I was rather surprised as I didn't think you were that old.  :P
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Quinault

  • Did you drink water today?
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,623
  • What about frogs? I like frogs!
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2016, 11:02:08 PM »
We waited until the last second to announced our 7th child's pregnancy. My own parents have been openly hostile about our family size since child 5.
The first time I read this, I thought you meant your 7th child is pregnant. I was rather surprised as I didn't think you were that old.  :P

I'm 38 now. Our eldest is 15, so I may not be that far from grandma status. I hope to have lots of grandchildren in the future!

Our youngest is a little over a year and a half, and much beloved by everyone. My parents haven't met children 5, 6, 7 for a variety of reasons. I know that their reaction was not positive when they heard about all of those pregnancies though.

Offline Quinault

  • Did you drink water today?
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,623
  • What about frogs? I like frogs!
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2016, 03:33:19 AM »
We waited until the last second to announced our 7th child's pregnancy. My own parents have been openly hostile about our family size since child 5.

You yourself came from a small family, obviously.

Actually, between my mother and stepfather I one was one of six children. My two brothers haven't had any children, and likely never will. My one stepbrother had 5 children with 3 women, the other stepbrother had 2 children with his wife, and my stepsister had 1 child.

So your assertion I come from a small family is incorrect.

Offline Velsigne

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 897
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: USA
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2016, 04:05:55 AM »
We waited until the last second to announced our 7th child's pregnancy. My own parents have been openly hostile about our family size since child 5.

You yourself came from a small family, obviously.

Actually, between my mother and stepfather I one was one of six children. My two brothers haven't had any children, and likely never will. My one stepbrother had 5 children with 3 women, the other stepbrother had 2 children with his wife, and my stepsister had 1 child.

So your assertion I come from a small family is incorrect.

I agree it's not anyone else's business how many children a woman has or doesn't.

All due respect, that's a small family.  I have an uncle (Catholic ) who raised 18 children.  Five from his first marriage,  and after he was widowed he married a woman with 12 of her own.

The English  and Scandinavians have the smallest families in my tree

It's not just Catholic thing either.   The Dutch (Dutch Reformed ) and French / First Nation women regularly had 10 to 20 children.  Well, I guess they are sort of Catholic.

One guy on the Native side fathered around 40 some odd children with various women.  He was a very very attractive man lol.  I would type his name but it might cause an unplanned pregnancy somewhere. 

I don't envy my cousin who is trying to sort out her immediate family.

In any case, thank God child mortality rates are down, at least in the "First World" so half or more aren't lost to disease, malnutrition, accidents, etc.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,315
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2016, 04:21:24 AM »
Cries because her best friend wouldn’t be a surrogate. 'It would be too weird,' she said.
I don't understand your world.

Kant wanted to ban butchers and doctors from being jurors, because their work supposedly compromised their right responses to certain situations. Similarly, I want to stay far away from understanding the story, narrative, etc. in which this makes sense and produces action-driving sympathy.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 04:26:04 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Pope Francis
Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Offline Ainnir

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 615
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2016, 09:44:18 PM »
Cries because her best friend wouldn’t be a surrogate. 'It would be too weird,' she said.
I don't understand your world.

Kant wanted to ban butchers and doctors from being jurors, because their work supposedly compromised their right responses to certain situations. Similarly, I want to stay far away from understanding the story, narrative, etc. in which this makes sense and produces action-driving sympathy.

Are you thinking the surrogacy is "naturally" accomplished?

I knew a couple who could actually conceive fine, but the woman's womb could not carry to term.  This is the sort of situation I imagine that line was referring to.  It would be convenient and comforting, I'm sure, for a couple hopeful for a biological child of their own to know the surrogate mother.  It's like inverse adoption, accomplished through IVF.  I couldn't do that, personally (I wouldn't be able to let the baby go), but I can see how the situation would come up without it becoming a Jerry Springer-Wife Swap hybrid.  What one thinks about IVF would be more applicable.

The couple I knew chose to adopt, though.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,315
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2016, 01:52:24 AM »

Are you thinking the surrogacy is "naturally" accomplished?

Uhh... either way?

Honestly it's just a world I cannot comprehend and have a primitive intuition not to. It is a world where people unnecessarily die from anxiety.

It's not even the surrogate thing as such. It's the quoted reaction.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 01:54:47 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Pope Francis
Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Offline Ainnir

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 615
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2016, 02:27:33 PM »
Oh I see.  :D  I kind of understand what you're saying, possibly.

Sometimes someone doesn't want another to comprehend their disposition so much as just see and acknowledge its existence.  Sometimes it's as simple as that.  Much of the time, that's all we can do.

There's a lot that I could say, but I seem unable to say much of it succinctly, so I'll just leave it there.  Words are not my primary processing mechanism.   :P



Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,315
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2016, 05:40:35 PM »
This way of construing one's sense of things, I would contend, is hideous and troubling. And how does this construct actually function in society? Or, how does the self report function?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 05:45:08 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Pope Francis
Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Offline Ainnir

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 615
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2016, 11:24:52 PM »
This way of construing one's sense of things, I would contend, is hideous and troubling. And how does this construct actually function in society? Or, how does the self report function?

I hear you and I'm so sorry you're troubled.  I'm afraid I don't completely understand, though.  Would you care to explain it a bit more for me?  :)   ;)

In seriousness, though, I only partially understand the direction of your questions.

I know how what I'm saying can be interpreted, but I'm looking through a lens of face-to-face interaction with people who are likely strangers or mere acquaintances, and how compassion works in those situations.  But also important is the role of closer friends and family in the life of someone who's experiencing their sky falling.  That's where I was trying to go with people needing just to be seen.  But also, to treat it like grief, and how that can't be fixed or reasoned away--it's a process someone has to go through in order to heal.  People on the outside of that don't get to determine how that process manifests for the individual.

Life in general is an often uncomfortable process, so I think compassion and commiseration are in order pretty much always.  Compassion isn't the same thing as either comprehension or condoning.  It's not relativism, either.

Best I can do.  I deleted at least 4 posts.   ::)

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,315
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2016, 12:17:27 AM »
I hear you and I'm so sorry you're troubled.
Lol! That is the whole point! Don't be sorry I am experiencing some kind of alienation or dissonance in my psychic economy.

Consider the following:

A person opens their eyes, and sees themselves teetering on the edge of a cliff.

They say to themselves: "The most important thing I have to worry about is to stop having the visual experience of a cliff's edge!"

This is two things: 1. It is absurd. 2. It is not taking their sense of sight seriously.

Similarly, if someone says, prima facie, "The most important thing is to stop construing this part of my life as grievous" then they are not taking their feelings seriously. They are treating their feelings as mere inner affective movements, rather than as perceptions or perception-like.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 12:19:57 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Pope Francis
Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'Animal politicus.' So at least I am a human person.

Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Offline Ainnir

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 615
  • Faith: Christian
Re: Motherhood
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2016, 11:32:23 AM »
Well English doesn't have a sufficiently short way to say "I see you experiencing hardship and sympathize and/or empathize, and although I may not be able to do anything useful or tangible to help you, I deeply feel for you and will be thinking of/praying for you.  I will not ignore or downplay your struggle.  I won't gossip about it.  I won't pretend I know all about it or you.  I won't think I'm better than you are because I'm not experiencing that struggle or making that decision. (and so on)"   ;D  Hugs are better, but it's weird to hug strangers, and often even friends.  We're not a super warm society and we get colder every day, it seems.

I agree with you, but I think we're addressing two different things.  I think you're thinking in terms of someone wrestling with clear moral decisions or positions.  What I'm saying could apply there, too.  But primarily I'm addressing any life crisis or struggle that a person can go through, that often doesn't have a clear moral direction, even in Christianity.  Job loss, infertility, social pressures of all kinds, loss, illness, injury, house fires.  Anything.  A person can struggle with these things with God in view, or not.  But in all cases, I do argue that compassion and commiseration over the struggle itself is often the only response we're able to offer without increasing the emotional burden.

If we bring morals into it, I think it's necessary to always bear in mind that we have free will, and while God is unchanging, a person's disposition toward God changes, and must be open to Him before anything can happen on that front.  Trying to force that from the outside will only damage relationships and create hardness of heart.  And if the person does eventually come to God, they will be doing it in spite of us instead of because of us.  I've been in both positions.

Anyway, in the the cliff scenario in how I'm addressing it, it is the bystanders who are telling the teetering/falling/broken person to "unsee" their reality, or that they're overreacting.  In my case, I was told essentially that "jumping" was the right thing to do.  The biblical thing to do.  A few people even wondered why I didn't do it sooner.  Out of dozens of people that opined at some point during that process, three responded in non-hurtful ways.  Two of those three actually commiserated.  One of those three offered a sound alternative that didn't involve plunging off a cliff.  A fourth person tried to be helpful by suggesting a walk along the beach to the person lying in pieces on the shore.  I love irony, but shock and grief seem to mess with one's sense of humor.   ::)

But as I said upthread, I've been one of the dozens saying dumb and hurtful things in someone else's life.  I'll likely be one in the future, too.  Forgiveness definitely plays a huge role in the mess of life (of course we "know" this).  Anyway, I'll resist the temptation to delete all of this (rewrite #3).  Hope it clarifies what I've been trying to say.  I'm sorry if it doesn't, or is bothersome, or just plain long.   :-\   :)