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Question: Should children be spanked?
Absolutely yes! - 35 (18.3%)
In some cases, yes. - 86 (45%)
Maybe. - 15 (7.9%)
No, probably not. - 24 (12.6%)
Absolutely not! - 31 (16.2%)
Total Voters: 191

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Author Topic: Spanking - Yea or Nay?  (Read 65725 times) Average Rating: 3
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LBK
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #585 on: October 14, 2014, 12:57:42 AM »

Maria, I thought you were ignoring anything DeniseDenise posts.
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DeniseDenise
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« Reply #586 on: October 14, 2014, 12:58:36 AM »

The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.


Maybe Priests can beat sprinkle tiresome parishioners too!

FIFY

Pastors get to sprinkle tiresome or popular parishioners with holy water on Theophany every year.
Some people really get a good soaking.


Voice of experience there....did you get soaked?

FIFY

Yes, our pastor loved to soak all the choir members.


shouldn't chase popularity...


after all, as a choir member you should know that we sing...

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you.....
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Maria
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O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #587 on: October 14, 2014, 01:45:11 AM »

The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.


Maybe Priests can beat sprinkle tiresome parishioners too!

FIFY

Pastors get to sprinkle tiresome or popular parishioners with holy water on Theophany every year.
Some people really get a good soaking.


Voice of experience there....did you get soaked?

FIFY

Yes, our pastor loved to soak all the choir members.


shouldn't chase popularity...


after all, as a choir member you should know that we sing...

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you.....

However, we should love one another as Christ has loved us.
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
LBK
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #588 on: October 14, 2014, 01:50:42 AM »

The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.


Maybe Priests can beat sprinkle tiresome parishioners too!

FIFY

Pastors get to sprinkle tiresome or popular parishioners with holy water on Theophany every year.
Some people really get a good soaking.


Voice of experience there....did you get soaked?

FIFY

Yes, our pastor loved to soak all the choir members.


shouldn't chase popularity...


after all, as a choir member you should know that we sing...

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you.....

However, we should love one another as Christ has loved us.

Haven't seen much of that from you, lately ....  Tongue
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DeniseDenise
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« Reply #589 on: October 14, 2014, 01:58:18 AM »

The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.


Maybe Priests can beat sprinkle tiresome parishioners too!

FIFY

Pastors get to sprinkle tiresome or popular parishioners with holy water on Theophany every year.
Some people really get a good soaking.


Voice of experience there....did you get soaked?

FIFY

Yes, our pastor loved to soak all the choir members.


shouldn't chase popularity...


after all, as a choir member you should know that we sing...

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you.....

However, we should love one another as Christ has loved us.


ah well.....Christ loves us enough to scold us.  He loved the Apostles enough to do the same to them....
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Chiere
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To God Be the Glory!


« Reply #590 on: October 15, 2014, 11:38:55 AM »

What the hell am I reading?

Words that make no sense, probably. Wink
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sheep100
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« Reply #591 on: October 20, 2014, 09:24:50 PM »

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes"

Proverbs 13:24 KJV
That's the Old Testament, Sheep100. Christ noted the things the Old Testament said, like An eye for an eye, but then he gave a commandment to perform mercy instead of those commands.

This is why, although the Old Testament might say, for example, to cane women, we do not do those things.

In fact, one of the core differences between the Testaments is that the old law is based much more on Law, punishment, revenge, while the gospel focuses on mercy, compassion, and forgiveness. That is essential to the Christian life. The gospel is replete with examples of where Old Testament demands are overcome with the Greater command of the gospel of Mercy.

Take for example Galatians 2:19: "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."

Another example is how Jesus spared a prostitute from being killed even though the Old law demanded it. Jesus' principle of mercy meant that the punishments of the Old law are to be forgiven, as He said, 70 times 7.

Now, Jesus did not go through and explain why or how every passages in the Old Testament has been overcome by the teaching of mercy, but someone who is living on Christ's spirit of grace is supposed to have a merciful spirit that will perform mercy instead.

There are plenty of people who unfortunately have not really taken Christ's instructions and spirit about this to heart. I think that most Christians are affected by His teachings, but not fully. Christ did not say "Don't follow the rules of ritual cleanliness", or "Don't perform atonement sacrifice in the Temple", either. However that has been easier for people to avoid than applying his teaching of mercy to people's children and family relations.

Hey thanks for your thoughtful reply. You are right that Christ reemphasized some aspects of the law and did change and/or abolish some Old Testament precepts but he never denied that those Old Testament laws were from God. Since he was God he had the authority to change the Law because he is the lawgiver and gives the law its force and authority and content. The lawgiver of the Old Testament is identical with Christ. Seeing the Old Testament as being fundamentally in opposition with the New Testament is an Old Heresy called Marcionism. Usually this heresy is manifested in todays environment by statements such as: "I like the God of the New Testament who talks about mercy and love but I can't stand the angry God of the Old Testament."

Christ himself said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17. There are passages in the New Testament where Christ symbolically positions himself as a new Moses(new lawgiver) much in the same way as John the Baptist is symbolically represented as Elijah(if you want the details on that I can provide them). Christ also quotes directly from the Old Testament in a manner that indicates that he thought it had full authority for everyday living. After Christ's resurrection and ascension the question of whether or not to continue fulfilling ceremonial and ritual purification laws was a big issue in the early church, that was eventually decided in favor of discontinuing the observance of ceremonial laws, this happened after much disputation, miraculous divine intervention and the first Church council(The Apostolic Council) so it is clear that putting away these laws was not entirely clear to be the right thing to do from the start for the earliest disciples even Peter was confused on the issue. The earliest disciples continued to venerate the Old Testament and see it as a treasure trove of information for instruction: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work: " 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The only texts considered Scripture at that time was the Old testament. Yes the Church put away some parts of the Old Testament as unnecessary or unhelpful in the light of Christ's teachings and example but the Church(the Orthodox Church) always maintained the inner harmony of the Old and New Testament seeing the Old Testament as the Foundation for the New. Whether you see Christ as a figure in opposition to the law or as someone who reoriented and/or superseded it is a matter of interpretation , but I think Christ's own words indicate for the later position and I think the interpretation of the Church is in agreement with mine.

Proverbs is a book of practical advice for everyday living I don't see how anything Christ did or said that would indicate we should now ignore it, if you do please show it to me.

God bless



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rakovsky
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« Reply #592 on: October 20, 2014, 10:04:32 PM »

You are right that Christ did change and/or abolish some Old Testament precepts...
 Since he was God he had the authority to change the Law because he is the lawgiver and gives the law its force and authority and content.

Right. He abolished them as part of his New Covenant of mercy. We are no longer demanded to follow all the Old Testament rules. There was a fundamental shift. I don't think that, for example, Jesus ever said that you can never stone prostitutes or that you don't have to follow any of the rules of ritual cleanliness. But He did stop a prostitute from being stoned, and his example serves as how to act in other cases. It was an overall approach Christ wants us to apply, and that's why we don't follow the rules of ritual cleanliness, for example. Jesus asked us to basically show maximum mercy and forgiveness in applying rules or not following them. So you don't have to stone prostitutes or cane children or fools or bad women, even when the Old Testament says to do it. That explains why Jesus intervened to spare the prostitute.

Quote
Seeing the Old Testament as being fundamentally in opposition with the New Testament is an Old Heresy called Marcionism. Usually this heresy is manifested in todays environment by statements such as: "I like the God of the New Testament who talks about mercy and love but I can't stand the angry God of the Old Testament."
It is not true that if you no longer are forced to follow the Old Testament that you reject God like Marcion. The opposite is true. Tertullian rejected Marcion by saying that God told us in Jeremiah that He would give us a "new covenant". Tertullian concluded that by fulfilling his promise and disposing of the old covenant, God proves that He is the God that promised He would put it aside.

That's why Paul writes in Hebrews 8 that God made the Old Law obsolete.


Quote
Christ himself said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17.
Right. In a way, He did not "abolish" the law- he fulfilled its requirements so that we no longer are forced to follow it. He made it obsolete like Paul said.
Christ paid for our sins under the Law by dying on the cross. He paid the debt required by the law. If people were to ignore mercy and beat children viciously with canes, then it would not be following the idea that God has taken people's guilt for their sins from them.



Quote
The only texts considered Scripture at that time was the Old testament.
No, the New Testament is sometimes also called "the scriptures" in the Bible. See: 2 Peter 3:15-16 There is another place where the Bible calls the New Testament scripture.
Quote
Whether you see Christ as a figure in opposition to the law or as someone who reoriented and/or superseded it is a matter of interpretation , but I think Christ's own words indicate for the later position and I think the interpretation of the Church is in agreement with mine.
The position of Orthodoxy, and for that matter traditional Protestantism and Catholicism, is that Christ "superseded" the Old Testament. Christian living by grace is put above the demands of the law.
Quote
Proverbs is a book of practical advice for everyday living I don't see how anything Christ did or said that would indicate we should now ignore it, if you do please show it to me.

Proverbs 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense.

Proverbs 19:29
Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.

Beating people for being "foolish" is not a demand from Christianity.

Here is another problem:
(29:19) "A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer."
This is implying to beat servants to force them to answer, because words don't suffice to correct their mistakes.

The spirit of forgiveness of the New Testament overrides the penal aspects of the Old Testament. That is why Christ says to be merciful as your Father in heaven has been merciful. That's why He says that the Merciful will be shown Mercy.

The idea of Christianity is that the Old Testament says to levy some punishments, like stoning adulterers, but we are supposed to supersede those laws with mercy as a way of Christian living.

Peace.
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xOrthodox4Christx
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« Reply #593 on: October 20, 2014, 11:46:25 PM »

The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.


Maybe Priests can beat sprinkle tiresome parishioners too!

FIFY

Pastors get to sprinkle tiresome or popular parishioners with holy water on Theophany every year.
Some people really get a good soaking.


Voice of experience there....did you get soaked?

FIFY

Yes, our pastor loved to soak all the choir members.


shouldn't chase popularity...


after all, as a choir member you should know that we sing...

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you.....

However, we should love one another as Christ has loved us.


ah well.....Christ loves us enough to scold us.  He loved the Apostles enough to do the same to them....

Scolding needn't be physical affliction of pain or use of force and violence. Children act out to get a rise out of their peers (usually their parents), because they want people to acknowledge them. To scold them, it is only necessary to communicate the message in an intelligent way, not to use force.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 11:47:10 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
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« Reply #594 on: October 21, 2014, 02:12:24 PM »

Proverbs is a book of practical advice for everyday living I don't see how anything Christ did or said that would indicate we should now ignore it, if you do please show it to me.

Proverbs 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense.

Proverbs 19:29
Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.

Beating people for being "foolish" is not a demand from Christianity.

Here is another problem:
(29:19) "A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer."
This is implying to beat servants to force them to answer, because words don't suffice to correct their mistakes.

The spirit of forgiveness of the New Testament overrides the penal aspects of the Old Testament. That is why Christ says to be merciful as your Father in heaven has been merciful. That's why He says that the Merciful will be shown Mercy.

The idea of Christianity is that the Old Testament says to levy some punishments, like stoning adulterers, but we are supposed to supersede those laws with mercy as a way of Christian living.

Peace.

You are ignoring his point.  The Book of Proverbs is not the law.  Christ did not abolish any of it - there is nothing to abolish.  It is just a collection of wisdom given to a man BY GOD.  It is still better to sleep on the roof than to share a bed with a contentious wife, alcohol still leads to mockers and brawling, people who don't till the field can tend to end up hungry, and yes, sometimes if you don't whoop a kid who needs it he might grow up needing a hanging instead.  If you disobey the Law of God you are punished in hellfire but if you disobey the wisdom of God you punish yourself in this life.

Also, for all the law abolishing that Christ did, it is interesting how polytheism, adultery, murder, robbery, and covetousness are still verboten. 
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Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
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« Reply #595 on: October 22, 2014, 01:49:13 PM »


"Right. He abolished them as part of his New Covenant of mercy. We are no longer demanded to follow all the Old Testament rules. There was a fundamental shift. I don't think that, for example, Jesus ever said that you can never stone prostitutes or that you don't have to follow any of the rules of ritual cleanliness. But He did stop a prostitute from being stoned, and his example serves as how to act in other cases. It was an overall approach Christ wants us to apply, and that's why we don't follow the rules of ritual cleanliness, for example. Jesus asked us to basically show maximum mercy and forgiveness in applying rules or not following them. So you don't have to stone prostitutes or cane children or fools or bad women, even when the Old Testament says to do it. That explains why Jesus intervened to spare the prostitute."

I think what it means in practice to apply maximum mercy and forgiveness is where we disagree.


"It is not true that if you no longer are forced to follow the Old Testament that you reject God like Marcion. The opposite is true. Tertullian rejected Marcion by saying that God told us in Jeremiah that He would give us a "new covenant". Tertullian concluded that by fulfilling his promise and disposing of the old covenant, God proves that He is the God that promised He would put it aside."

Please define what you mean by the old covenant.

"That's why Paul writes in Hebrews 8 that God made the Old Law obsolete."

It seems to me that the context of that chapter is about the shift from insufficient animal
sacrifices for sin and hopeless attempts for righteousness through obedience to the law,
to the perfect sacrifice of Christ and for forgiveness through it.


"Right. In a way, He did not "abolish" the law- he fulfilled its requirements so that we no longer are forced to follow it. He made it obsolete like Paul said.
Christ paid for our sins under the Law by dying on the cross. He paid the debt required by the law."
 
Last I checked the Ten Commandments are still in force and in no sense are obsolete. We are still obligated to obey the moral law. Transgression is still punishable by hellfire unless one repents and repenting usually involves the attempt to obey the moral law so it still compels us to action or inaction.

"If people were to ignore mercy and beat children viciously with canes, then it would not be following the idea that God has taken people's guilt for their sins from them."

There is beating with a cane and then there is beating viciously with a cane whether one is doing one or the other depends on the context of the action. If we look at the quote that started this discussion it says that love motivates the discipline: "Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them." (Proverbs 13:24). It is love that motivates the discipline because the parent wants to guide their child to a better way of living its not some sort of expiating punishment. It seems that according to the Psalmist in one of the most prayed Psalms that God uses painful means for good ends: "Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice. Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity" (Psalm 51: 7-9)

 







"The position of Orthodoxy, and for that matter traditional Protestantism and Catholicism, is that Christ "superseded" the Old Testament. Christian living by grace is put above the demands of the law."

Is Christian living by Grace above the demands of the first and second commandment? I think we might be talking past each other here a little bit. I agree with you that many of the ceremonial laws of the Old testament are obsolete and no longer in force, however the core of the Old Testament Law which is the Ten Commandments are in full harmony with Christ's teachings and are still normative for all people. Christ said: Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:36-40). Notice that whole Law is based upon the commandments to love!


Proverbs 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense.
Proverbs 19:29
Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.

"Beating people for being "foolish" is not a demand from Christianity."
The proverb to me seems to be a statement of an observation not a command to action.

"Here is another problem:
(29:19) "A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer."
This is implying to beat servants to force them to answer, because words don't suffice to correct their mistakes."

It is true that some people will never be persuaded with mere words but sometimes by action alone violent or otherwise.

The spirit of forgiveness of the New Testament overrides the penal aspects of the Old Testament. That is why Christ says to be merciful as your Father in heaven has been merciful. That's why He says that the Merciful will be shown Mercy.

Agreed.

Sometimes as the Proverb says to truly love someone you need to correct them to not do so is manifestation of a lack of love and a sin of omission.

"The idea of Christianity is that the Old Testament says to levy some punishments, like stoning adulterers, but we are supposed to supersede those laws with mercy as a way of Christian living."

I think the idea of Christianity has more to do with liberation from slavery to sin than escape from physical punishments prescribed by the Old Testament.
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