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Author Topic: St. Timothy and the neighbor's cat  (Read 2390 times) Average Rating: 0
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deusveritasest
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« on: July 11, 2010, 07:12:05 PM »

Our neighbors have a cat, named Timothy the Cat (yes, we have a neighborhood pet named after a great theologian.)

Intentionally?!
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 07:13:23 PM »

I don't think so.  They're not Coptic.   Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2010, 07:36:31 PM »

I don't think so.  They're not Coptic.   Smiley

Are the Copts the only ones who have much of a regard for Saint Timothy?
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2010, 08:24:25 PM »

This family is Italian American, so I doubt they know who St. Timothy was.  I think they just liked the name.   Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2010, 08:35:09 PM »

This family is Italian American, so I doubt they know who St. Timothy was.  I think they just liked the name.   Smiley

Oh. Obviously non-Orientals would not know about him (unless they were highly intellectual). But my question actually wasn't rhetorical. Are the Copts the only Oriental family who have much regard for St. Timothy?
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 11:33:39 PM »

This family is Italian American, so I doubt they know who St. Timothy was.  I think they just liked the name.   Smiley

Oh. Obviously non-Orientals would not know about him (unless they were highly intellectual). But my question actually wasn't rhetorical. Are the Copts the only Oriental family who have much regard for St. Timothy?

I know the Armenians have great respect for him.  As I said above, some of his works survive in Classical Armenian.  I think his writings were some of the earliest theological works translated into the Armenian language.  VasnTearn would know more about this than I, though.
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 11:38:56 PM »

This family is Italian American, so I doubt they know who St. Timothy was.  I think they just liked the name.   Smiley

Oh. Obviously non-Orientals would not know about him (unless they were highly intellectual). But my question actually wasn't rhetorical. Are the Copts the only Oriental family who have much regard for St. Timothy?

I know the Armenians have great respect for him.  As I said above, some of his works survive in Classical Armenian.  I think his writings were some of the earliest theological works translated into the Armenian language.  VasnTearn would know more about this than I, though.

Oh. Ok. And the Ethiopians and Eritreans venerate a lot of the same saints as the Copts, no?
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 12:02:37 AM »

I assume so, and I assume that St. Timothy would be a saint for them and for the Syriac Orthodox, just as he is for the Armenians and Copts.
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2010, 01:02:00 AM »

I assume so, and I assume that St. Timothy would be a saint for them and for the Syriac Orthodox, just as he is for the Armenians and Copts.

Sorry, which Saint Timothy is being spoken of here?
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2010, 01:06:31 AM »

He was the successor to St. Dioscoros.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Timothy_II_of_Alexandria

I might make this a separate thread.  He's a great enough saint to get his own thread.   Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2010, 01:16:41 AM »

I split this off from the Armenian Lessons thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28618.msg452341.html#msg452341

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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 02:55:16 AM »

Let me be pedantic, since St Timothy is one of my most important patrons.

His nickname was Timothy the Weasel. The word for weasel and cat is the same in Greek, but in Syriac they are different and he is Timothy the Weasel, because of the results of his ascetic lifestyle.

The Byzantines later said that he was Timothy the Cat because they said he used to climb over the roofs like Batman and enter monks rooms like a cat-burglar and try to persuade them to accept his views. (But then they also said that he was a cannibal).

His most important work is available in Armenian and is being translated by a PhD student at present. (Thank God, I was planning to learn Classical Armenian a few years ago just to be able to read it), but much of his written work is available in Syriac and French, and more latterly in English. I have translated his Profession of Faith in English for the first time previously here..

Profession of Faith

I wrote a paper about him some years ago which is available here, which I keep meaning to extend based on further study...

Paper about St Timothy

I think he is much less well known than he should be, and that he is an important figure in the development of our Church and I have grown to love him very much, as the people of his time did.

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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2010, 03:02:02 AM »

His nickname was Timothy the Weasel. The word for weasel and cat is the same in Greek, but in Syriac they are different and he is Timothy the Weasel, because of the results of his ascetic lifestyle.


That's too bad.  Timothy the Cat sounds so much better.   Cool
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2010, 03:05:18 AM »

The Byzantines later said that he was Timothy the Cat because they said he used to climb over the roofs like Batman and enter monks rooms like a cat-burglar and try to persuade them to accept his views. (But then they also said that he was a cannibal).

Yet another one of those stories.  I have to start a collection of these.   Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2010, 03:15:43 AM »

Someone mentioned to me a little while ago that St. Timothy is called something else in Armenian.  I've heard him referred to as "Soorp Dimoteos Aerulus," but what I'm thinking of was another word instead of Aerulus.  It was one syllable and it referred to his posture.  I don't think it had anything to do with cats or weasels.  It may have been the word "gooz," but I'm not sure.
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2010, 03:33:55 AM »

Quote
The word for weasel and cat is the same in Greek

With respect, Fr Peter, this is not true. Ailouros is the pre-modern word for cat, whereas weasel is iktis, and a variety of other words not connected with ailouros.
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2010, 03:44:09 AM »

I am no Greek scholar at all so that is not my suggestion. But Professors Ebeid and Wickham say this. Do you mean there is no difference in modern Greek or in ancient Greek?

I'll find the passage from Ebeid and Wickham where they mention this.

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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2010, 04:20:19 AM »

The modern Greek word for cat is ghata, similar to the modern Italian gatto.
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« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2010, 09:01:02 AM »

Someone mentioned to me a little while ago that St. Timothy is called something else in Armenian.  I've heard him referred to as "Soorp Dimoteos Aerulus," but what I'm thinking of was another word instead of Aerulus.  It was one syllable and it referred to his posture.  I don't think it had anything to do with cats or weasels.  It may have been the word "gooz," but I'm not sure.

Dear Salpy

Timothy of Alexandria is NOT a saint in the Armenian Church. Yes, his work against Chalcedon (in fact a collection of writings of different ancient Fathers, including him too as a commentator on the words of others), was translated into Armenian and had much influence on later Armenian theology, but he is not regarded as saint in our Church. Neither is Dioscorus of Alexandria.

Yes, he is called "Timotheos Kuz/Kooz" (or Guz/Gooz in WA pronunciation) in Armenian. The word կուզ in Classical Armenian means "cat" or some kind of animal from that family, according to Ajarean's etymological dictionary, where it is mentioned that this Armenian word is from the Syriac "kuza", meaning the same. The dictionary of Classical Armenian gives us the meanings of "some animal related to weasel and cat" or just "cat", providing also with the following Greek and Latin equivalents: for the first meaning - iktis (Gr.) and martes (Lat.), for the second meaning - ailouros (Gr.) and felis, catus (Lat.).

What you speak about the posture etc comes from the confusion between the Classical Armenian word "kuz" and modern Armenian (or more correctly Persian) word "kuz" which means "hunch-backed". But this last meaning does not concern the name of Timothy of Alexandria in Armenian as it didn't exist in Classical Armenian.
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« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2010, 10:48:10 AM »

I know Sts. Timothy and Dioscoros are not on our calendar, but I've been told by others at my church that they are saints in the sense that they are venerated by our sister Churches, and St. Timothy especially had an influence on our Christology.  Is that incorrect? 
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« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2010, 10:51:48 AM »

There are lots of saints, most of them even, which are only commemorated in local Churches because they are local saints. So not being on the calendar is not the same as not being a saint.

But even not being a saint isn't a major problem. The Orthodox Church is not monolithic after all, but is a communion of local Churches.

None of the ancient British saints are on the Armenian or Coptic calendars but they are no less saints.

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« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2010, 11:35:28 AM »

Yes, he is called "Timotheos Kuz/Kooz" (or Guz/Gooz in WA pronunciation) in Armenian. The word կուզ in Classical Armenian means "cat" or some kind of animal from that family, according to Ajarean's etymological dictionary, where it is mentioned that this Armenian word is from the Syriac "kuza", meaning the same. The dictionary of Classical Armenian gives us the meanings of "some animal related to weasel and cat" or just "cat", providing also with the following Greek and Latin equivalents: for the first meaning - iktis (Gr.) and martes (Lat.), for the second meaning - ailouros (Gr.) and felis, catus (Lat.).

What you speak about the posture etc comes from the confusion between the Classical Armenian word "kuz" and modern Armenian (or more correctly Persian) word "kuz" which means "hunch-backed". But this last meaning does not concern the name of Timothy of Alexandria in Armenian as it didn't exist in Classical Armenian.

Thank you for clarifying.  I thought gooz was hunchback, but I was afraid to call him that last night, as "Timothy the Hunchback" sounds even worse than "Timothy the Cat," or "Timothy the Weasel."   Smiley  It never occurred to me that gooz would be cat or weasel in Classical Armenian.

So in Armenian his name would be: Տիմոթէոս կուզ
Western Armenian pronunciation:  Dimoteos Gooz
Eastern Armenian and Classical Armenian:  Timoteos Kooz
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2010, 03:47:25 PM »

This is fascinating. Thank you Father Peter for the information


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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2010, 07:42:51 PM »

The Byzantines later said that he was Timothy the Cat because they said he used to climb over the roofs like Batman and enter monks rooms like a cat-burglar and try to persuade them to accept his views. (But then they also said that he was a cannibal).

Yet another one of those stories.  I have to start a collection of these.   Smiley

Please do!  laugh
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2010, 07:45:35 PM »

Timothy of Alexandria is NOT a saint in the Armenian Church. Yes, his work against Chalcedon (in fact a collection of writings of different ancient Fathers, including him too as a commentator on the words of others), was translated into Armenian and had much influence on later Armenian theology, but he is not regarded as saint in our Church. Neither is Dioscorus of Alexandria.

...

They might not be on the Armenian calendar of saints, but that doesn't mean an Armenian can't recognize the particular canonizations of sister churches as legitimate.
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2010, 04:48:24 AM »

Timothy of Alexandria is NOT a saint in the Armenian Church. Yes, his work against Chalcedon (in fact a collection of writings of different ancient Fathers, including him too as a commentator on the words of others), was translated into Armenian and had much influence on later Armenian theology, but he is not regarded as saint in our Church. Neither is Dioscorus of Alexandria.

...

They might not be on the Armenian calendar of saints, but that doesn't mean an Armenian can't recognize the particular canonizations of sister churches as legitimate.

I can't say so, deuveritasest. And I'm not taught by our Fathers and not encouraged to do this. There are Armenian saints that aren't in our Calendar but are in our menologies. They are even depicted with halos in manuscripts. Their lives show that those people really deserve to be called saints. But we don't use their names with the abbreviation "St", we aren't encouraged to do so. How much more if someone belongs to a sister Church. Individuals may do so if they wish. They may call a Russian or a Catholic saint a saint too. But that is some other thing.

And to show that Patriarchs Timothy and Dioscorus of Alexandria were not venerated in the Armenian Church it is not difficult to bring the words of one of the  catholicoses of the Armenian Church of the Cilician period who in his reply to the Armenian Eastern vardapets says approximately the following: "Who are they for us? Teachers, saints, our brothers, from our homeland, who?" Of course, he would never write in this manner if they were considered great fathers for us too. Even Nerses of Lambron who is considered as a saint in the Armenian Catholicosate of the Great House of Cilicia and is commemorated during the Liturgy there, is not commemorated by us in Etchmiadzin and is not called a saint for some reasons.

Now, in such a confused situation, I would consider to be more cautious in such cases. That's me, of course. Others may do what they consider correct.
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2010, 11:11:53 AM »

And to show that Patriarchs Timothy and Dioscorus of Alexandria were not venerated in the Armenian Church it is not difficult to bring the words of one of the  catholicoses of the Armenian Church of the Cilician period who in his reply to the Armenian Eastern vardapets says approximately the following: "Who are they for us? Teachers, saints, our brothers, from our homeland, who?" Of course, he would never write in this manner if they were considered great fathers for us too.

Just out of curiosity, did that correspondence happen during the period that the Church in Cilicia was in the process of joining the Catholics?  It could be he was disparaging those two saints for that reason since union with the Catholics meant accepting Chalcedon.  It would just be interesting to know the context of the correspondence you are mentioning above.

I could see how calling people not on our calendar "saints" would be strange to you.  I would imagine in Armenia the population and culture is very homogeneous.  Here in the diaspora, however, we are all thrown together and we communicate with our sister Churches more.  It's not just Armenians who will call Coptic saints "St."  The Copts also call our saints that.  For example, Gregory of Nareg and Nerses Shnorhali are not on the Coptic calendar, yet I've heard Copts refer to them as "St. Gregory of Nareg" and "St. Nerses Shnorhali."  Also, as indicated by Fr. Peter, saints of other Churches who predated Chalcedon will be called saints, such as St. Patrick of Ireland.

It probably isn't proper in the strict sense of the word, but it's the practice here in the diaspora, not just among the laity, but also the clergy.
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2010, 11:41:38 AM »

Dear Salpy

I wrote "That's me, of course. Others may do what they consider correct."

So if you in your country consider it correct, do that. I have noticed that even Severus of Antioch is called a saint by the Armenians on this website. That is wrong. I love all the true lovers of Christ our Lord from all Churches, even Catholics and yes, even Protestants. They are all my brothers and sisters and I hate the word "heretic". However, there are unsolved issues between churches, and between our and Coptic Church too. Let's pray that one day our hierarchs solve all these issues. I'm for honesty and truth. I don't like today's hypocrisy when the clergy from these sister churches show they are one, they are the same etc but then show hatred towards each other, gossip about each other, scorn each other's clothes etc. Don't think the EO are the only people that criticize and scorn us for our bishops' mitres and many many other things. There are Coptic bishops and clergy that in their hearts consider us, the Armenians, heretics, unbelievers, non-Christians. Maybe you haven't met such people, I have met, I have heard all of this with my ears and felt such a great pain in my heart. They write in their books nonsenses about our Church even in these new times and publish again the nonsenses that many centuries ago Bar-Salibi or I don't know who wrote about us. Why then don't they remember at such times that we are sister churches? Do you know any modern Armenian Father that has written a book where he shows hatred towards the Copts or criticizes their customs or brings from old Fathers quotations about "ungodly" customs of the Copts, something that Copts don't shun to do towards us, the Armenians. You haven't read such a "bad" book written by a Coptic clergyman? I have read.

I believe that only where there is honesty there can be true love and respect. Church policy is one thing, honesty and true love are something else.

I can't call Timothy of Alexandria a saint also because I don't like the spirit in which he has written his book. I don't like the expressions full of hatred he used regarding certain people and believers of Christ. I have his writings in Classical Armenian. Once I even decided to translate some parts, but when I started to read, that spirit made me lose my peace. I'm trying to understand him though. But that's not my saint. Sorry. There are also Armenian saints that repeat just the same words of Timothy of Alexandria, and I hate that spirit also in the Armenian Fathers' writings. When I understood from where all that mess and hatred entered our Church, I said, It would be perhaps better if the book of Timothy of Alexandria were not translated into Armenian at all.

Sorry for writing all of this. And perhaps it would be better that I again stopped coming to this and such websites. This is not my place, it seems.
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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2010, 11:56:00 AM »

Please don't stop coming here!

Your contributions have been very valuable, and you're a great person to converse with.

Disagreements are normal and we would be very bored without them.   Smiley

It seems you've had some very bad experiences with the Copts.  That's way too bad.  If you stick around here, though, you'll get to know some very nice Copts, who love us.   Smiley  Thankfully, I haven't had any bad experiences like you have had and I am hoping that what you experienced is not representative of the majority.  That doesn't mean that your experience, though, is not significant, and it may be good to discuss it, in order to "clear the air," as they say, and straighten things out.  Not talking about things gives no chance for correcting problems.

I hope I'm making sense.  What I want to say most of all is, please don't leave.
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« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2010, 03:54:16 PM »

There are Coptic bishops and clergy that in their hearts consider us, the Armenians, heretics, unbelievers, non-Christians. Maybe you haven't met such people, I have met, I have heard all of this with my ears and felt such a great pain in my heart. They write in their books nonsenses about our Church even in these new times and publish again the nonsenses that many centuries ago Bar-Salibi or I don't know who wrote about us. Why then don't they remember at such times that we are sister churches? Do you know any modern Armenian Father that has written a book where he shows hatred towards the Copts or criticizes their customs or brings from old Fathers quotations about "ungodly" customs of the Copts, something that Copts don't shun to do towards us, the Armenians. You haven't read such a "bad" book written by a Coptic clergyman? I have read.

I'm so sorry to hear. But, please know that we don't all think this way. I'm Coptic and I have relatives that are Armenian and one of my very dearest friends is Armenian. Even my next door neighbor is Armenian! I feel nothing but the utmost love and respect for the Armenian people and Church. I'm not sure who this bishop is or what book you're refering to, but please don't think thats how we all think.
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« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2010, 08:57:32 PM »

Timothy of Alexandria is NOT a saint in the Armenian Church. Yes, his work against Chalcedon (in fact a collection of writings of different ancient Fathers, including him too as a commentator on the words of others), was translated into Armenian and had much influence on later Armenian theology, but he is not regarded as saint in our Church. Neither is Dioscorus of Alexandria.

...

They might not be on the Armenian calendar of saints, but that doesn't mean an Armenian can't recognize the particular canonizations of sister churches as legitimate.

I can't say so, deuveritasest. And I'm not taught by our Fathers and not encouraged to do this. There are Armenian saints that aren't in our Calendar but are in our menologies. They are even depicted with halos in manuscripts. Their lives show that those people really deserve to be called saints. But we don't use their names with the abbreviation "St", we aren't encouraged to do so. How much more if someone belongs to a sister Church. Individuals may do so if they wish. They may call a Russian or a Catholic saint a saint too. But that is some other thing.

And to show that Patriarchs Timothy and Dioscorus of Alexandria were not venerated in the Armenian Church it is not difficult to bring the words of one of the  catholicoses of the Armenian Church of the Cilician period who in his reply to the Armenian Eastern vardapets says approximately the following: "Who are they for us? Teachers, saints, our brothers, from our homeland, who?" Of course, he would never write in this manner if they were considered great fathers for us too. Even Nerses of Lambron who is considered as a saint in the Armenian Catholicosate of the Great House of Cilicia and is commemorated during the Liturgy there, is not commemorated by us in Etchmiadzin and is not called a saint for some reasons.

Now, in such a confused situation, I would consider to be more cautious in such cases. That's me, of course. Others may do what they consider correct.

 Huh  I remember in the Byzantine tradition that it was common to recognize the glorifications of other particular churches. Is this not the case amongst the Oriental churches?
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« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2010, 09:00:22 PM »

Dear Salpy

I wrote "That's me, of course. Others may do what they consider correct."

So if you in your country consider it correct, do that. I have noticed that even Severus of Antioch is called a saint by the Armenians on this website. That is wrong. I love all the true lovers of Christ our Lord from all Churches, even Catholics and yes, even Protestants. They are all my brothers and sisters and I hate the word "heretic". However, there are unsolved issues between churches, and between our and Coptic Church too. Let's pray that one day our hierarchs solve all these issues. I'm for honesty and truth. I don't like today's hypocrisy when the clergy from these sister churches show they are one, they are the same etc but then show hatred towards each other, gossip about each other, scorn each other's clothes etc. Don't think the EO are the only people that criticize and scorn us for our bishops' mitres and many many other things. There are Coptic bishops and clergy that in their hearts consider us, the Armenians, heretics, unbelievers, non-Christians. Maybe you haven't met such people, I have met, I have heard all of this with my ears and felt such a great pain in my heart. They write in their books nonsenses about our Church even in these new times and publish again the nonsenses that many centuries ago Bar-Salibi or I don't know who wrote about us. Why then don't they remember at such times that we are sister churches? Do you know any modern Armenian Father that has written a book where he shows hatred towards the Copts or criticizes their customs or brings from old Fathers quotations about "ungodly" customs of the Copts, something that Copts don't shun to do towards us, the Armenians. You haven't read such a "bad" book written by a Coptic clergyman? I have read.

I believe that only where there is honesty there can be true love and respect. Church policy is one thing, honesty and true love are something else.

I can't call Timothy of Alexandria a saint also because I don't like the spirit in which he has written his book. I don't like the expressions full of hatred he used regarding certain people and believers of Christ. I have his writings in Classical Armenian. Once I even decided to translate some parts, but when I started to read, that spirit made me lose my peace. I'm trying to understand him though. But that's not my saint. Sorry. There are also Armenian saints that repeat just the same words of Timothy of Alexandria, and I hate that spirit also in the Armenian Fathers' writings. When I understood from where all that mess and hatred entered our Church, I said, It would be perhaps better if the book of Timothy of Alexandria were not translated into Armenian at all.

Sorry for writing all of this. And perhaps it would be better that I again stopped coming to this and such websites. This is not my place, it seems.

 Undecided Undecided Undecided
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« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2012, 04:15:02 PM »

I am rather surprised to heat that a Bishop from one Oriental Church would publish something criticizing the practices of a sister church. Here in California all of our churches have excellent relations. How widespread is this criticism in other places?
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« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2012, 05:13:38 PM »

I am not sure what evidence there is that anyone has criticised the Armenian Church.

Certainly here in the UK I have the warmest possible relations with the Armenian clergy and in other circumstances would be glad to call the Armenian bishop my own bishop.
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« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2012, 11:10:10 AM »

Dear Salpy

I wrote "That's me, of course. Others may do what they consider correct."

So if you in your country consider it correct, do that. I have noticed that even Severus of Antioch is called a saint by the Armenians on this website. That is wrong. I love all the true lovers of Christ our Lord from all Churches, even Catholics and yes, even Protestants. They are all my brothers and sisters and I hate the word "heretic". However, there are unsolved issues between churches, and between our and Coptic Church too. Let's pray that one day our hierarchs solve all these issues. I'm for honesty and truth. I don't like today's hypocrisy when the clergy from these sister churches show they are one, they are the same etc but then show hatred towards each other, gossip about each other, scorn each other's clothes etc. Don't think the EO are the only people that criticize and scorn us for our bishops' mitres and many many other things. There are Coptic bishops and clergy that in their hearts consider us, the Armenians, heretics, unbelievers, non-Christians. Maybe you haven't met such people, I have met, I have heard all of this with my ears and felt such a great pain in my heart. They write in their books nonsenses about our Church even in these new times and publish again the nonsenses that many centuries ago Bar-Salibi or I don't know who wrote about us. Why then don't they remember at such times that we are sister churches? Do you know any modern Armenian Father that has written a book where he shows hatred towards the Copts or criticizes their customs or brings from old Fathers quotations about "ungodly" customs of the Copts, something that Copts don't shun to do towards us, the Armenians. You haven't read such a "bad" book written by a Coptic clergyman? I have read.

I believe that only where there is honesty there can be true love and respect. Church policy is one thing, honesty and true love are something else.

I can't call Timothy of Alexandria a saint also because I don't like the spirit in which he has written his book. I don't like the expressions full of hatred he used regarding certain people and believers of Christ. I have his writings in Classical Armenian. Once I even decided to translate some parts, but when I started to read, that spirit made me lose my peace. I'm trying to understand him though. But that's not my saint. Sorry. There are also Armenian saints that repeat just the same words of Timothy of Alexandria, and I hate that spirit also in the Armenian Fathers' writings. When I understood from where all that mess and hatred entered our Church, I said, It would be perhaps better if the book of Timothy of Alexandria were not translated into Armenian at all.

Sorry for writing all of this. And perhaps it would be better that I again stopped coming to this and such websites. This is not my place, it seems.

Ya, I never read this until now.

If you can give us the source of these writings, I would be more than happy to condemn them publicly and bring it up.  I personally have never heard anyone would dare call any of our sister churches "heretics."  There might be some misunderstandings maybe.  For instance, I read from somewhere that Julian of Halicarnassus was venerated by the Armenians, but it turned out that that is not true, and it was simply based on an interpretation of Julian that wasn't Julian's.

I've also heard that from a Coptic bishop about the use of unleavened bread in the Armenian Church, and how the Coptic Church doesn't agree to this practice.  But that doesn't mean they condemn it.  In fact, they take communion from that same bread that they don't agree with.  So it doesn't make any sense why anyone from my church would call anyone in your church heretics.

I have met Copts who are quite haughty though.  One Coptic girl told me that Armenians told her that "your church kept the whole faith better than us."  I scolded her for that statement, and we got into a big argument.  I told her we are no more Orthodox than they are, and I even had my Coptic priests tell her that what she said was wrong.  But this isn't something that came from bishops or priests.  In our Sunday Schools, we tend to have "Coptic pride" and this sometimes makes it seem that being Coptic is just as, if not more important, than being Orthodox.  Another guy was not impressed with "lax fasting rules" of other sister churches (even the Syrian Church he said), to which I replied, "To each their own.  That doesn't make us more correct than they are."  So I'm not afraid to stand against anyone Coptic who continues to spread any form of unconscious bigotry they like to hold.  But never have I ever met anyone in the clergy that would dare say such things, unless they're ignorant and uneducated.  In that case, I'd forgive them for their stupidity.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 11:11:23 AM by minasoliman » Logged

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