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Author Topic: Coptic Popes and their relationship to the Assyrian Church of the East  (Read 4633 times) Average Rating: 0
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Leb Aryo
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« on: July 10, 2010, 11:40:22 PM »

Hi all.
First off, I'm a Syriac Orthodox Christian.
I feel a close spiritual affinity to Coptic Christians but I recently saw this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG5QXRLuRC0

I obviously know of the Chalcedonian schism and the enmity between Nestorius and Cyril of Alexandria.  That was 1500 years ago though and today is today.  Why are we still re-hashing a schism that happened 1500 years ago?
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2010, 11:43:47 PM »

Do you understand his Arabic?  Is he actually saying what the title says he's saying?
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2010, 01:50:35 AM »

My friend told me about the video.  The numerous times HH the Pope mentions Nestorius and Asshuriyin... 
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2010, 01:56:49 AM »

It would be nice if someone who spoke Egyptian Arabic could listen to the video and see if the title correctly represents what he is saying.  He may be condemning the Church of the East's Christology, but what the title says seems a bit harsh and it may be a misunderstanding.   
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2010, 02:07:53 AM »

I'm sure that condemning their Christology is the basis for his arguments.  Unfortunately it seems that historically the Coptic hierarchy has been hindering any kind of warming of relations between fellow OO churches to the ACOE.  For the Syriac church I think this is especially difficult because the ACOE is a fellow Syriac church and culturally basically the same.
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 04:08:33 AM »

Leb Aryo,

Surely the issue is not culturally affinity? What matters is theological and spiritual unity. If the Assyrian Church of the East teaches error then the Syrian Church will not want to be in unity with it, whatever it's cultural background. Just because a controversy took place 1500 years ago does not mean that it is not still important if the issues still persist.

Are you aware of the substance of the Christological issues which still separate the ACOE and the Orthodox Churches?

Would you advocate union with a Mormon church if it was culturally Syrian?

Culture means nothing if the faith is not the same. We are united by our common Orthodox faith beyond all of our cultures, it is not our cultures which unite us. Last Saturday I was at the consecration of the new Syrian Orthodox cathedral in London, and many bishops, priests and lay people from all of the Orthodox churches were present - Armenian, Indian, Ethiopian, Coptic, British and of course Syrian. No-one spoke of culture, what united us so strongly was our shared faith. We were all present, from different churches and cultures, because this was OUR cathedral as well, even though we did not speak Syriac.

Historically all of the hierarchies have been hindering a warmer relationship with the ACOE on the basis of the fact that it is not Orthodox. In more modern times there have been conversations of course but the issue of Christology has not gone away.

Father Peter
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 10:36:03 AM »

It would be nice if someone who spoke Egyptian Arabic could listen to the video and see if the title correctly represents what he is saying.  He may be condemning the Church of the East's Christology, but what the title says seems a bit harsh and it may be a misunderstanding.   
I have sound problems, so I can't get all of it (in Classical/Standard Arabic with an Egyptian accent, btw), but HH talks about their adherence to Nestorius and their rejection of Ephesus and Pope St. Cyril, and then the issue of them in the Middles East Council of Churches.  I didn't catcht the phrase "do not enter heaven."
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 11:07:51 AM »

Thank you.  It could be the person who gave the title to the video then was extrapolating.
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2010, 12:15:31 PM »

Spiritual affinity is very important but so is the cultural aspect.  You can not write off your cousin let's say because he's a member of a church whose only difference might be the specific issue of the two natures of Christ (one which even to me seems to be the same but differently worded).

Taken from a Coptic website: http://www.lacopts.org/news/dialogue-the-assyrian-church-of-the-east-and-its-effect-the-dialogue-the-roman-catholic

It also seems to me that venerating a saint does not mean that church has to align itself 100% with his teachings, to promote them and be an organization based on his teachings...  I'm sure some of our churches have saints that might have 1 aspect of their teaching that we don't agree with.  The Dialogue that's mentioned on the lacopts website broke down because the ACOE refused to reject Nestorius, most likely because the OO churches also refused to also repudiate Cyril of Alexandria.  Hence we continue what started 1500 years ago.
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2010, 12:17:58 PM »

The difference of course is that St Cyril is the Pillar of Orthodoxy and Nestorius is a heretic.

I think that you minimise the importance of these theological matters.
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2010, 12:28:09 PM »

Let's speak of today, not what 1 person of a church wrote 1500 years ago.  I personally haven't been able to grasp the difference of the ACOE's Christology that they have today.
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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2010, 12:40:22 PM »

Then with respect you should do so before criticising those who are aware of the differences.

Do you have access to the writings of our great Father among the saints, Severus? As Patriarch of Antioch he belongs to your own tradition, though of course he belongs to us all and spent more time in Egypt than in Syria. But he explains the differences clearly and most strongly.

Father Peter
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2010, 07:44:25 PM »

I obviously know of the Chalcedonian schism

Which is not entirely relevant to this matter, both traditions predating Chalcedon.

Why are we still re-hashing a schism that happened 1500 years ago?

Because it may (and I believe it does) still have a bearing on the faith of these churches today.
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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2010, 07:47:57 PM »

Unfortunately it seems that historically the Coptic hierarchy has been hindering any kind of warming of relations between fellow OO churches to the ACOE.

Thank God they are at least able to repel false ecumenism in this matter, even if perhaps they have not done so with the Chalcedonians. Warming relations and cooperation is one thing. Overlooking historical doctrine is another.

For the Syriac church I think this is especially difficult because the ACOE is a fellow Syriac church and culturally basically the same.

And you don't think that it has been difficult for the Coptic church to be separated from the Byzantine church of Alexandria? None the less, they stood their ground for centuries. But perhaps now that they are saying such hideous things with the Chalcedonians as "both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic orthodox Christological faith", Pope Shenouda III has no room to talk.
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2010, 07:56:56 PM »

You can not write off your cousin let's say because he's a member of a church whose only difference might be the specific issue of the two natures of Christ (one which even to me seems to be the same but differently worded).

I don't know what you mean by "write off", but one most certainly can most regard them as cut off from the Church.

BTW, I think you are confusing the division between the Orientals and the Byzantines and the Orientals and the East Assyrians. The only terminological difference between the Orientals and Byzantines was one nature or two natures. This was not the case with the East Assyrians, however. They, like the Orientals, recognized the connection between nature and hypostasis, and thus taught both two natures and two hypostases.

And, speaking of "the Logos who became human" (Cyrillian) and "the Logos with the human that He assumed" (Theodorean [the ACoE's primary Christologian, Babai the Great, claimed to simply be clarifying the teachings of Theodore of Mopsuestia]) sounds "the same but differently worded" to you?!
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2010, 07:57:24 PM »

But perhaps now that they are saying such hideous things with the Chalcedonians as "both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic orthodox Christological faith", Pope Shenouda III has no room to talk.

Behave yourself.   Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2010, 07:58:17 PM »

Let's speak of today, not what 1 person of a church wrote 1500 years ago.  I personally haven't been able to grasp the difference of the ACOE's Christology that they have today.

They will essentially defend anything written by Theodore of Mopsuestia. So refer to the end of my last post. They don't seem different to you?!
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2010, 08:07:49 PM »

Then with respect you should do so before criticising those who are aware of the differences.

Do you have access to the writings of our great Father among the saints, Severus? As Patriarch of Antioch he belongs to your own tradition, though of course he belongs to us all and spent more time in Egypt than in Syria. But he explains the differences clearly and most strongly.

Father Peter

The problem is, Father, that although his works survive in Syriac, he wrote in Greek, the schism over Chalcedon not having solidified yet. So I am not sure if his writings would satisfy Leb on the difference between the folllowers of St. Cyril today, and the venerators of Nestorius, whether yesterday or today.
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2010, 04:07:44 PM »

It would be nice if someone who spoke Egyptian Arabic could listen to the video and see if the title correctly represents what he is saying.  He may be condemning the Church of the East's Christology, but what the title says seems a bit harsh and it may be a misunderstanding.   
I have sound problems, so I can't get all of it (in Classical/Standard Arabic with an Egyptian accent, btw), but HH talks about their adherence to Nestorius and their rejection of Ephesus and Pope St. Cyril, and then the issue of them in the Middles East Council of Churches.  I didn't catcht the phrase "do not enter heaven."
My Arabic is not so good, but I definitely did NOT catch him saying that they "do not enter heaven" as well.

The most strident part I gathered was that he said something to the effect of we don't have dealings with or accept them or something in that vein and that we blocked them from entering the MECC.

I've found the audio slightly better in this clip,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdvL6Znm1kY

That being said, I really do wish our relationship with them would improve. I've read a bit about the Assyrian Church in college and have a great admiration and respect for them. 

We don't all have to agree about everything and sing kumbaya. And, as I understand it there is a serious Christological difference with them. But they are fellow Christians, living in a very difficult situation and we must always, always put that above what seperates us.
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2010, 05:04:14 PM »

Unfortunately it seems that historically the Coptic hierarchy has been hindering any kind of warming of relations between fellow OO churches to the ACOE.

Thank God they are at least able to repel false ecumenism in this matter, even if perhaps they have not done so with the Chalcedonians. Warming relations and cooperation is one thing. Overlooking historical doctrine is another.

For the Syriac church I think this is especially difficult because the ACOE is a fellow Syriac church and culturally basically the same.

And you don't think that it has been difficult for the Coptic church to be separated from the Byzantine church of Alexandria? None the less, they stood their ground for centuries. But perhaps now that they are saying such hideous things with the Chalcedonians as "both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic orthodox Christological faith", Pope Shenouda III has no room to talk.

Wow!  You may want to rein that kind of talk in a bit, brother!  I understand your chagrin (to some degree) but still.

I don't want to risk the wrath of Salpy and violate the rules of the forum in terms of EO vs. OO theology, so I'll be short and sweet and put it this way:  I was born into the Eastern Orthodox Church, and although I believe that the problems of Chalcedon were for the most part corrected at Constantinople in 553, the Tome of Leo will never work for me, and I'll never be able to confess Chalcedon as being ecumenical or the work of the Holy Spirit, so I sought out the Oriental Orthodox Communion.

That being the case, I certainly understand your concerns regarding the theological/christological issues involved in talks of OO/EO reunification.

All that being said, do you really think it's your place, as a mere "inquirer" into Oriental Orthodoxy, someone who's not yet received the Body and Blood of Christ in an Oriental Orthodox Church, to blast a theologian of Pope Shenouda III's erudition and saintly reputation as if you understood the matter more clearly and have studied it more thoroughly than he has?  This could seem a trifle disrespectful and, well, arrogant.

Since the Oriental Orthodox Communion functions with one accord in terms of ecumenical matters (including the dialogue with the EO), I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I mean this as respectfully as possible, and I hope you'll take it in the loving spirit in which it was intended.
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2010, 05:17:35 PM »

It would be nice if someone who spoke Egyptian Arabic could listen to the video and see if the title correctly represents what he is saying.  He may be condemning the Church of the East's Christology, but what the title says seems a bit harsh and it may be a misunderstanding.   
I have sound problems, so I can't get all of it (in Classical/Standard Arabic with an Egyptian accent, btw), but HH talks about their adherence to Nestorius and their rejection of Ephesus and Pope St. Cyril, and then the issue of them in the Middles East Council of Churches.  I didn't catcht the phrase "do not enter heaven."
My Arabic is not so good, but I definitely did NOT catch him saying that they "do not enter heaven" as well.

The most strident part I gathered was that he said something to the effect of we don't have dealings with or accept them or something in that vein and that we blocked them from entering the MECC.

I've found the audio slightly better in this clip,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdvL6Znm1kY

That being said, I really do wish our relationship with them would improve. I've read a bit about the Assyrian Church in college and have a great admiration and respect for them. 

We don't all have to agree about everything and sing kumbaya. And, as I understand it there is a serious Christological difference with them. But they are fellow Christians, living in a very difficult situation and we must always, always put that above what seperates us.
Yes, this is one rare area where I disagree with HH: the ACE should be allowed in the MECC. It is not, after all, an ecclesiastical organ.  But it is a means of fellowship.  The present attitude makes no distinction between the ACE and Muslims. And that can't be sustained.
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« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2010, 05:19:50 PM »

Unfortunately it seems that historically the Coptic hierarchy has been hindering any kind of warming of relations between fellow OO churches to the ACOE.

Thank God they are at least able to repel false ecumenism in this matter, even if perhaps they have not done so with the Chalcedonians. Warming relations and cooperation is one thing. Overlooking historical doctrine is another.

For the Syriac church I think this is especially difficult because the ACOE is a fellow Syriac church and culturally basically the same.

And you don't think that it has been difficult for the Coptic church to be separated from the Byzantine church of Alexandria? None the less, they stood their ground for centuries. But perhaps now that they are saying such hideous things with the Chalcedonians as "both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic orthodox Christological faith", Pope Shenouda III has no room to talk.

Wow!  You may want to rein that kind of talk in a bit, brother!  I understand your chagrin (to some degree) but still.

I don't want to risk the wrath of Salpy and violate the rules of the forum in terms of EO vs. OO theology, so I'll be short and sweet and put it this way:  I was born into the Eastern Orthodox Church, and although I believe that the problems of Chalcedon were for the most part corrected at Constantinople in 553, the Tome of Leo will never work for me, and I'll never be able to confess Chalcedon as being ecumenical or the work of the Holy Spirit, so I sought out the Oriental Orthodox Communion.

That being the case, I certainly understand your concerns regarding the theological/christological issues involved in talks of OO/EO reunification.

All that being said, do you really think it's your place, as a mere "inquirer" into Oriental Orthodoxy, someone who's not yet received the Body and Blood of Christ in an Oriental Orthodox Church, to blast a theologian of Pope Shenouda III's erudition and saintly reputation as if you understood the matter more clearly and have studied it more thoroughly than he has?  This could seem a trifle disrespectful and, well, arrogant.

Since the Oriental Orthodox Communion functions with one accord in terms of ecumenical matters (including the dialogue with the EO), I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I mean this as respectfully as possible, and I hope you'll take it in the loving spirit in which it was intended.
If you don't mind, what was involved from going from EO to OO (this is a question on another thread)?
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« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2010, 05:25:40 PM »

And you don't think that it has been difficult for the Coptic church to be separated from the Byzantine church of Alexandria? None the less, they stood their ground for centuries. But perhaps now that they are saying such hideous things with the Chalcedonians as "both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic orthodox Christological faith", Pope Shenouda III has no room to talk.

I want to clear the air on this.  I think I'll start a thread on the Second Agreed Statement.
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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2010, 05:48:18 PM »

I started the thread.  Let's see what happens.   Smiley

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28731.new.html#top
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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2010, 05:54:26 PM »

Yes, this is one rare area where I disagree with HH: the ACE should be allowed in the MECC. It is not, after all, an ecclesiastical organ.  But it is a means of fellowship.  The present attitude makes no distinction between the ACE and Muslims. And that can't be sustained.

ialmisry, I regrettably share your opinion on this; of course with my own limited knowledge.

This is PURE conjecture on my part, but I wonder if the 1994 events really hardened HH to them. As I understand it, the ACE apparently agreed to a number of things in those meeting and we were very close to restoring communion with them. But they may have possibly played us against the RCC to get Rome to sign the common Christological formula with them and without having to anathematize Nestorious and the other "Greek Fathers".  Maybe now that Mar Bawai Soro has formally left the ACE, we may be able to come back to the table with them.

Again, this only conjecture on my part and if I'm out of line then, Salpy, please delete my post.
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2010, 05:57:28 PM »

You're OK.   Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2010, 06:05:31 PM »

My reading is a little different and sees Mar Bawai Soro as the more ecumenically minded figure and the Eastern Synod as taking a traditionally 'Nestorian' line in distinction to his. I thought I recalled that it was the websites of the Synod which insisted on venerating Nestorius and not Mar Bawai Soro whose writings downplayed, or properly described, the limited role that Nestorius had in forming their theology.

My issue with the ACE is that I am never bothered by Nestorius. It is the relation with Theodore of Mopsuestia which is much more significant. Ibas was willing to dump Nestorius, but he died considering Theodore a major teacher of the Church.

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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2010, 06:50:36 PM »

Unfortunately it seems that historically the Coptic hierarchy has been hindering any kind of warming of relations between fellow OO churches to the ACOE.

Thank God they are at least able to repel false ecumenism in this matter, even if perhaps they have not done so with the Chalcedonians. Warming relations and cooperation is one thing. Overlooking historical doctrine is another.

For the Syriac church I think this is especially difficult because the ACOE is a fellow Syriac church and culturally basically the same.

And you don't think that it has been difficult for the Coptic church to be separated from the Byzantine church of Alexandria? None the less, they stood their ground for centuries. But perhaps now that they are saying such hideous things with the Chalcedonians as "both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic orthodox Christological faith", Pope Shenouda III has no room to talk.

Wow!  You may want to rein that kind of talk in a bit, brother!  I understand your chagrin (to some degree) but still.

I don't want to risk the wrath of Salpy and violate the rules of the forum in terms of EO vs. OO theology, so I'll be short and sweet and put it this way:  I was born into the Eastern Orthodox Church, and although I believe that the problems of Chalcedon were for the most part corrected at Constantinople in 553, the Tome of Leo will never work for me, and I'll never be able to confess Chalcedon as being ecumenical or the work of the Holy Spirit, so I sought out the Oriental Orthodox Communion.

That being the case, I certainly understand your concerns regarding the theological/christological issues involved in talks of OO/EO reunification.

All that being said, do you really think it's your place, as a mere "inquirer" into Oriental Orthodoxy, someone who's not yet received the Body and Blood of Christ in an Oriental Orthodox Church, to blast a theologian of Pope Shenouda III's erudition and saintly reputation as if you understood the matter more clearly and have studied it more thoroughly than he has?  This could seem a trifle disrespectful and, well, arrogant.

Since the Oriental Orthodox Communion functions with one accord in terms of ecumenical matters (including the dialogue with the EO), I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I mean this as respectfully as possible, and I hope you'll take it in the loving spirit in which it was intended.
If you don't mind, what was involved from going from EO to OO (this is a question on another thread)?

I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll send you a pm right now.
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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2010, 07:04:45 PM »

If you feel like sharing your story with everyone, you can share here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28250.0.html

Of course, if you don't want to, you don't have to.    Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2010, 08:26:40 PM »

My reading is a little different and sees Mar Bawai Soro as the more ecumenically minded figure and the Eastern Synod as taking a traditionally 'Nestorian' line in distinction to his. I thought I recalled that it was the websites of the Synod which insisted on venerating Nestorius and not Mar Bawai Soro whose writings downplayed, or properly described, the limited role that Nestorius had in forming their theology.

My issue with the ACE is that I am never bothered by Nestorius. It is the relation with Theodore of Mopsuestia which is much more significant. Ibas was willing to dump Nestorius, but he died considering Theodore a major teacher of the Church.

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« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2010, 08:28:48 PM »

But they are fellow Christians, living in a very difficult situation and we must always, always put that above what seperates us.

What do you mean by that?
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« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2010, 08:41:25 PM »

I was born into the Eastern Orthodox Church,

I myself am coming from the Byzantine church.

and although I believe that the problems of Chalcedon were for the most part corrected at Constantinople in 553,

So long as people really hold to Constantinople II. But that doesn't change the heterodox nature of Chalcedon. And it also doesn't stop the faith of believers from being perverted by the definitions of Chalcedon, something that Salpy and I have recently seen in a very blatant fashion on this site. Ultimately the only way to preserve the faith and to maintain its doctrinal continuity is to expunge Chalcedon from Christendom's "doctrinal repertoire", so to speak.

the Tome of Leo will never work for me, and I'll never be able to confess Chalcedon as being ecumenical or the work of the Holy Spirit, so I sought out the Oriental Orthodox Communion.

That is good to hear you say that, but that doesn't seem to be consistent with the Agreed Statements that I have been quoting. After all, they did say "...we have now clearly understood that both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition...". That seems to me to pretty clearly imply that the Byzantines loyally maintained authentic orthodoxy at Chalcedon and therefore that it was a work of the Holy Spirit.

All that being said, do you really think it's your place, as a mere "inquirer" into Oriental Orthodoxy, someone who's not yet received the Body and Blood of Christ in an Oriental Orthodox Church, to blast a theologian of Pope Shenouda III's erudition and saintly reputation as if you understood the matter more clearly and have studied it more thoroughly than he has?

I'm really not all that impressed by Pope Shenouda's theological writings. I'm not that interested in questioning his holiness (though honestly his essay on female ordination and (Edit pursuant to moratorium) seems hateful to me at times). But compared to someone like Fr. V.C. Samuel, for instance, his writings sound to me as if they've been written by a middle school student.

And yes, I do think I'm in the place to be correcting any sort of individual when I see them perverting the faith. After all, as I have pointed out a number of times, Severus of Antioch was a mere layman when he anathematized Pope Peter III of Alexandria for accepting the Henotikon, a document that appears far less offensive to me than the Agreed Statements.

This could seem a trifle disrespectful and, well, arrogant.

It could be, yes. But I don't think it is.

Since the Oriental Orthodox Communion functions with one accord in terms of ecumenical matters (including the dialogue with the EO),

I don't expect that it has been adopted by all bishops of the Oriental tradition, yet, however.

I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I am certainly hoping so and am seeking out those who are willing to truly resist the Chalcedonian heresy.

Chris,
While I have my green ink out, I'm going to ask you to 1. remember the moratorium, 2. soften your tone regarding the EO's and their councils, and 3. please look at the thread that was started about the Second Agreed Statement and address your comments about it there. Thanks,
Salpy
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« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2010, 08:41:47 PM »

But they are fellow Christians, living in a very difficult situation and we must always, always put that above what seperates us.

What do you mean by that?

Like not ban them from joining the MECC for one.
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« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2010, 08:53:44 PM »

But they are fellow Christians, living in a very difficult situation and we must always, always put that above what seperates us.

What do you mean by that?

Like not ban them from joining the MECC for one.

Despite ialmisry's bizarre conception that only Byzantines and Orientals should be a part because only they are properly churches, I think that we could easily say that many Byzantines and Orientals could say of each other that they are not properly churches, and we could say that same about the ACE, and the Romans, and they could say it about us, etc. Such a technicality is not all that helpful. Perhaps it would be good to come up with a different name. But if we want to be so technocratic about that, logically we may just wind up with not being able to have such an organization at all. So I agree that unless the organization itself defines itself more partially towards EOy and OOy that it would be appropriate for the ACE to not be banned.
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« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2010, 08:55:11 PM »

I was born into the Eastern Orthodox Church,

I myself am coming from the Byzantine church.

and although I believe that the problems of Chalcedon were for the most part corrected at Constantinople in 553,

So long as people really hold to Constantinople II. But that doesn't change the heterodox nature of Chalcedon. And it also doesn't stop the faith of believers from being perverted by the definitions of Chalcedon, something that Salpy and I have recently seen in a very blatant fashion on this site. Ultimately the only way to preserve the faith and to maintain its doctrinal continuity is to expunge Chalcedon from Christendom's "doctrinal repertoire", so to speak.

the Tome of Leo will never work for me, and I'll never be able to confess Chalcedon as being ecumenical or the work of the Holy Spirit, so I sought out the Oriental Orthodox Communion.

That is good to hear you say that, but that doesn't seem to be consistent with the Agreed Statements that I have been quoting. After all, they did say "...we have now clearly understood that both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition...". That seems to me to pretty clearly imply that the Byzantines loyally maintained authentic orthodoxy at Chalcedon and therefore that it was a work of the Holy Spirit.

All that being said, do you really think it's your place, as a mere "inquirer" into Oriental Orthodoxy, someone who's not yet received the Body and Blood of Christ in an Oriental Orthodox Church, to blast a theologian of Pope Shenouda III's erudition and saintly reputation as if you understood the matter more clearly and have studied it more thoroughly than he has?

I'm really not all that impressed by Pope Shenouda's theological writings. I'm not that interested in questioning his holiness (though honestly his essay on female ordination and (Edit pursuant to moratorium) seems hateful to me at times). But compared to someone like Fr. V.C. Samuel, for instance, his writings sound to me as if they've been written by a middle school student.

And yes, I do think I'm in the place to be correcting any sort of individual when I see them perverting the faith. After all, as I have pointed out a number of times, Severus of Antioch was a mere layman when he anathematized Pope Peter III of Alexandria for accepting the Henotikon, a document that appears far less offensive to me than the Agreed Statements.

This could seem a trifle disrespectful and, well, arrogant.

It could be, yes. But I don't think it is.

Since the Oriental Orthodox Communion functions with one accord in terms of ecumenical matters (including the dialogue with the EO),

I don't expect that it has been adopted by all bishops of the Oriental tradition, yet, however.

I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I am certainly hoping so and am seeking out those who are willing to truly resist the Chalcedonian heresy.

Eutychianism, who supports that?

Quote
Chris,
While I have my green ink out, I'm going to ask you to 1. remember the moratorium, 2. soften your tone regarding the EO's and their councils, and 3. please look at the thread that was started about the Second Agreed Statement and address your comments about it there. Thanks,
Salpy

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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2010, 08:57:04 PM »

I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I am certainly hoping so and am seeking out those who are willing to truly resist the Chalcedonian heresy.

I think we're looking at the future founder of the Oriental Orthodox Synod in Resistance.   Wink
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« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2010, 09:00:21 PM »

I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I am certainly hoping so and am seeking out those who are willing to truly resist the Chalcedonian heresy.

I think we're looking at the future founder of the Oriental Orthodox Synod in Resistance.   Wink
LOL. Of course, he has to join an Oriental Orthodox synod first. Maybe he should go to Athos and discuss matters over tea.
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« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2010, 09:04:10 PM »

I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I am certainly hoping so and am seeking out those who are willing to truly resist the Chalcedonian heresy.

I think we're looking at the future founder of the Oriental Orthodox Synod in Resistance.   Wink
LOL. Of course, he has to join an Oriental Orthodox synod first. Maybe he should go to Athos and discuss matters over tea.

How exactly would the Athonites be helpful to me?
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« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2010, 09:06:42 PM »

But they are fellow Christians, living in a very difficult situation and we must always, always put that above what seperates us.

What do you mean by that?

Like not ban them from joining the MECC for one.

Despite ialmisry's bizarre conception that only Byzantines and Orientals should be a part

Part of what?

Quote
because only they are properly churches, I think that we could easily say that many Byzantines and Orientals could say of each other that they are not properly churches, and we could say that same about the ACE, and the Romans, and they could say it about us, etc. Such a technicality is not all that helpful. Perhaps it would be good to come up with a different name. But if we want to be so technocratic about that, logically we may just wind up with not being able to have such an organization at all. So I agree that unless the organization itself defines itself more partially towards EOy and OOy that it would be appropriate for the ACE to not be banned.
Yes, this is one rare area where I disagree with HH: the ACE should be allowed in the MECC. It is not, after all, an ecclesiastical organ.  But it is a means of fellowship.  The present attitude makes no distinction between the ACE and Muslims. And that can't be sustained.



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« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2010, 09:07:21 PM »

I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I am certainly hoping so and am seeking out those who are willing to truly resist the Chalcedonian heresy.

I think we're looking at the future founder of the Oriental Orthodox Synod in Resistance.   Wink
LOL. Of course, he has to join an Oriental Orthodox synod first. Maybe he should go to Athos and discuss matters over tea.

How exactly would the Athonites be helpful to me?
Kindred souls.
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« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2010, 09:10:19 PM »

But they are fellow Christians, living in a very difficult situation and we must always, always put that above what seperates us.

What do you mean by that?

Like not ban them from joining the MECC for one.

Despite ialmisry's bizarre conception that only Byzantines and Orientals should be a part

Part of what?

Quote
because only they are properly churches, I think that we could easily say that many Byzantines and Orientals could say of each other that they are not properly churches, and we could say that same about the ACE, and the Romans, and they could say it about us, etc. Such a technicality is not all that helpful. Perhaps it would be good to come up with a different name. But if we want to be so technocratic about that, logically we may just wind up with not being able to have such an organization at all. So I agree that unless the organization itself defines itself more partially towards EOy and OOy that it would be appropriate for the ACE to not be banned.
Yes, this is one rare area where I disagree with HH: the ACE should be allowed in the MECC. It is not, after all, an ecclesiastical organ.  But it is a means of fellowship.  The present attitude makes no distinction between the ACE and Muslims. And that can't be sustained.





Nevermind. I was confused. I thought you were referring to the ACE as not an ecclesiastical organ, rather than the MECC.
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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2010, 09:11:46 PM »

I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I am certainly hoping so and am seeking out those who are willing to truly resist the Chalcedonian heresy.

I think we're looking at the future founder of the Oriental Orthodox Synod in Resistance.   Wink
LOL. Of course, he has to join an Oriental Orthodox synod first. Maybe he should go to Athos and discuss matters over tea.

How exactly would the Athonites be helpful to me?
Kindred souls.

Ah... That sort of thing is helpful for friendship, but not necessarily for religious cooperation. Their being die hard Chalcedonian I imagine would render them largely useless in helping me in this matter.
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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2010, 09:13:10 PM »

I'm wondering where you'll eventually want to hang your hat.  Is there any church out there extreme enough for you in their repudiation of Chalcedon and the Chalcedonian Communion?

I am certainly hoping so and am seeking out those who are willing to truly resist the Chalcedonian heresy.

I think we're looking at the future founder of the Oriental Orthodox Synod in Resistance.   Wink

On a certain level I have wondered if it may eventually become necessary to form such a body.

And I am not the first one to suggest such an idea. Others here have admitted that a reunion between Byzantines and Orientals may result in conservative parties on both sides breaking off to not participate in the reunion.
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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2010, 09:13:41 PM »

Eutychianism, who supports that?

Pardon?
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« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2010, 09:23:33 PM »

Gentlemen,
Let's keep this on topic, which is the subject of the Coptic Pope's relations with the ACE.  To the extent that I have helped derail the thread, I ask forgiveness.  I do, however, want to keep this on topic now.

Thank you.
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« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2010, 11:13:01 PM »

But they are fellow Christians, living in a very difficult situation and we must always, always put that above what seperates us.

What do you mean by that?

Like not ban them from joining the MECC for one.

Despite ialmisry's bizarre conception that only Byzantines and Orientals should be a part

Part of what?

Quote
because only they are properly churches, I think that we could easily say that many Byzantines and Orientals could say of each other that they are not properly churches, and we could say that same about the ACE, and the Romans, and they could say it about us, etc. Such a technicality is not all that helpful. Perhaps it would be good to come up with a different name. But if we want to be so technocratic about that, logically we may just wind up with not being able to have such an organization at all. So I agree that unless the organization itself defines itself more partially towards EOy and OOy that it would be appropriate for the ACE to not be banned.
Yes, this is one rare area where I disagree with HH: the ACE should be allowed in the MECC. It is not, after all, an ecclesiastical organ.  But it is a means of fellowship.  The present attitude makes no distinction between the ACE and Muslims. And that can't be sustained.





Nevermind. I was confused. I thought you were referring to the ACE as not an ecclesiastical organ, rather than the MECC.
ah.

I wouldn't want the Jehovah Witnesses nor the Mormons on the MECC.  But the ACE belong there. As long as the MECC doesn't start acting as a para-Church. I'm a little torn about their endorsement of the Arabic translation of the Bible.
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« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2010, 06:34:38 AM »

Brother Chris, out of respect for Salpy's admonition to stay on topic, I'll resist the urge to do a point-by-point response here, but there are a couple of things I really must say in this open forum where the comments were made, even if I risk discipline.  I'm glad your theological studies have lead you to the truth of the Miaphysite Christology and that you are looking into the Oriental Orthodox Communion.  You're obviously no Forrest Gump.  That said, are you sure you really gave the Eastern Orthodox Church enough time in terms of living in communion?  I just looked at your intro, and it seems you "jumped ship" very quickly after being received into their flock.

Theology is important, but so is the life in Christ, especially receiving the Eucharist and living a life in Communion with your fellow Orthodox.  Having the priest come to your house to minister to you, teaching Sunday School, ministering to the poor, being a shoulder for your troubled brother to lean on.

Maybe then you'd have some of the humility of His Holiness the Pope, who is really a transcendant theologian in a class with Fr. V.C. Samuel, H.H. Karekin I, and just about anyone else, but writes his books in a simple language to meet the needs of his people, who are not theologians by training, but farmers, pharmacists, housewives, children, et cetera.  Perhaps then you'd also see that if the Byzantines are sincere about Constantinople II and are now confessing the Orthodox Faith, it's not necessarily important to get their arms up behind their backs and force them to say, "...we have now clearly understood that both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition except, in the case of the Byzantines, for that one blip at Chalcedon when...".

I mean, you're not even living a life of communion within the Oriental Orthodox Church yet, and you've already left her, intellectually speaking, to rally her dissident elements and further fracture Eastern Chrisitianity. Sad

Not exactly "that they may be one".  As I said, you're clearly a sharp cookie, and you and I agree on quite a bit christologically speaking, but as one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread, please consider what I've said.

Salpy, I apologize.  Back to the regular discussion...I personally think that while no efforts could realistically be made to re-establish communion between any Orthodox Church and the ACE at this point, they should be allowed to participate in ecumenical bodies like the MECC, which make no stipulations as to theology.
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