Author Topic: Jesus descends  (Read 15860 times)

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Offline Papist

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #180 on: July 13, 2010, 12:46:52 PM »
Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
We disagree with them.
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Offline Mekki

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #181 on: July 13, 2010, 12:51:54 PM »
Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
We disagree with them.

Of course you do, but do you find such claim justifiable withing the sole limits of the OT?
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Offline Papist

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #182 on: July 13, 2010, 12:55:15 PM »
Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
We disagree with them.

Of course you do, but do you find such claim justifiable withing the sole limits of the OT?
1. No, especially when you consider how "Wisdom" in the Old Testament is considered co-eternal with God and when you see God's spirit continually mentioned in the OT. Also, you have to keep in mind that "Elohim", one of the names applied to God, is a plural word suggesting Plural unity. Finally, you have the creation account in which God states, "Let us create man in our image".
2. Why should I work within the sole limits of the OT when Christ has come to provide us with the fullness of revelation?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #183 on: July 13, 2010, 12:57:38 PM »
Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
They don't understand the OT. What was spoken in type was proclaimed directly when He came down in Person.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline Papist

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #184 on: July 13, 2010, 12:58:30 PM »
Mekki,
Is it true that Muslims believe that the Koran is Co-eternal with God?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #185 on: July 13, 2010, 12:59:29 PM »
Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
We disagree with them.

Of course you do, but do you find such claim justifiable withing the sole limits of the OT?
Since the Gospels fulfills the promises in the "sole limits of the OT," one cannot take the OT without the NT.  Hence the Jews problem, who substitute their Talmud.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Mekki

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #186 on: July 13, 2010, 01:10:32 PM »
1. No, especially when you consider how "Wisdom" in the Old Testament is considered co-eternal with God and when you see God's spirit continually mentioned in the OT. Also, you have to keep in mind that "Elohim", one of the names applied to God, is a plural word suggesting Plural unity. Finally, you have the creation account in which God states, "Let us create man in our image".

The plural there is for majesty, which it seems to be in common use withing Semitic languages. in Arabic, when you speak to someone higher in stature than you, you use antum (you in plural), which functions exactly like the French vous.

Besides, isn't what you suggest goes againt you creed, don't you say that God is one but he is manifested in three persons. Where that from Deutoronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.


Quote
2. Why should I work within the sole limits of the OT when Christ has come to provide us with the fullness of revelation?

I'm not saying you should, my question cencerned the Jews and the OT strictly.
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Offline Mekki

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #187 on: July 13, 2010, 01:11:47 PM »
Mekki,
Is it true that Muslims believe that the Koran is Co-eternal with God?

It's a highly debated subject.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #188 on: July 13, 2010, 01:16:40 PM »

The plural there is for majesty, which it seems to be in common use withing Semitic languages. in Arabic, when you speak to someone higher in stature than you, you use antum (you in plural), which functions exactly like the French vous.
That would make sense if it wasn't for the pesky fact that its not just the "royal we" that is plural, but God's own self designation as "Elohim".
Besides, isn't what you suggest goes againt you creed, don't you say that God is one but he is manifested in three persons. Where that from Deutoronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
I am not saying anything that Goes against my creed. Yes we do indeed believe that in God there are three persons and one God. This is expressed well by the word "Elohim" which is a word that suggests plural unity, like the word "family" or the term "school of fish" or "Pack" etc. etc etc. The plurality is the number of persons. The unity is the essence, nature, being, divinity, God.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #189 on: July 13, 2010, 01:17:10 PM »
Mekki,
Is it true that Muslims believe that the Koran is Co-eternal with God?

It's a highly debated subject.
How widespread is the belief that the Koran is eternal?
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Nazarene

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #190 on: July 13, 2010, 01:18:08 PM »
Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.

Try to wrap your head around this:

Quote
Come and see the mystery of the word YHWH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew edition. See also Sonclno Press, Vol III, 134.)

And this:

Quote
Speaking of the identity of Hashem, a prominent Rabbi says...

Why does the Sh'ma declare "...the Lord, our God,
the Lord..." and thereby name him three times?

Because he is...

the Creator of Heaven and Earth -- being the Father,
the Stem of Jesse upon the Earth -- being the Messiah,
and the Way of Torah in the Earth -- being the Holy Spirit.

Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai, The Zohar.

(the Zohar is a spirtual narrative composed by Jewish mystics)

http://www.torahwellsprings.org/Studies/trinity.htm

Also I recommend studying the Targums, you'll be very surprised by what you find.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 01:20:45 PM by Nazarene »

Offline Papist

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #191 on: July 13, 2010, 01:19:31 PM »
Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.

Try to wrap your head around this:

Quote
Come and see the mystery of the word YHWH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew edition. See also Sonclno Press, Vol III, 134.)

And this:

Speaking of the identity of Hashem, a prominent Rabbi says...

Quote
Why does the Sh'ma declare "...the Lord, our God,
the Lord..." and thereby name him three times?

Because he is...

the Creator of Heaven and Earth -- being the Father,
the Stem of Jesse upon the Earth -- being the Messiah,
and the Way of Torah in the Earth -- being the Holy Spirit.

Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai, The Zohar.

(the Zohar is a spirtual narrative composed by Jewish mystics)

http://www.torahwellsprings.org/Studies/trinity.htm

Also I recommend studying the Targums, you'll be very surprised by what you find.


Are these Messianic Jewish documents? How old are they?
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Offline Nazarene

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #192 on: July 13, 2010, 01:23:31 PM »
No the Zohar and Targums are Orthodox Jewish documents. The Zohar is a 12th century mystical text which is believed to contain oral traditions from the 2nd Temple era. Passages from the Zohar are found in many Orthodox Jewish Siddurim (prayerbooks). The Targums are Aramaic paraphrasic translations of the Hebrew Tanakh which were used in Jewish synagogues throughout most of the Common Era. The Yemenite Jews still use the Targums in their services: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP8Bts8wbkE, and every Jewish Miqraot Gedolot includes the Targums.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 01:25:00 PM by Nazarene »

Offline Papist

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #193 on: July 13, 2010, 01:24:54 PM »
No the Zohar and Targums are Orthodox Jewish documents. The Zohar is a 12th century mystical text which is believed to contain oral traditions from the 2nd Temple era. The Targums are Aramaic paraphrasic translations of the Hebrew Tanakh which were used in Jewish synagogues throughout most of the Common Era. The Yemenite Jews still use the Targums in their services: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP8Bts8wbkE.
Thank you very much for sharing these. Do you know of a website I can visit to learn more about Messianic Judaism?
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Offline Nazarene

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #194 on: July 13, 2010, 01:27:45 PM »
You're welcome :). I always use these to demonstrate that Jews actually know more than most Christians think they know. For Messianic sources, actually a lot can be gleaned from official Jewish texts like the Talmud, Targums & Zohar. Gimme a few minutes and I'll post some links.

Offline Mekki

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #195 on: July 13, 2010, 01:34:09 PM »

I am not saying anything that Goes against my creed. Yes we do indeed believe that in God there are three persons and one God. This is expressed well by the word "Elohim" which is a word that suggests plural unity, like the word "family" or the term "school of fish" or "Pack" etc. etc etc. The plurality is the number of persons. The unity is the essence, nature, being, divinity, God.


So what you're saying is that God is composed of three entities, each lacking the other? But that goes the firs of Aquinas' statements on God's qualities:

God is simple, without composition of parts, such as body and soul, or matter and form.


Also, such claim would necessary make one ask himself, how did these three parts come together? They necessitate an intelligent being to put them together.

Quote
How widespread is the belief that the Koran is eternal?

This is not a subject that interests the common or even most of scholars. But the consensus seems to be that the word of God is pre-eternal.
إن تنصرو الله ينصركم
An ye support God, He will support thee.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #196 on: July 13, 2010, 01:40:38 PM »
1. No, especially when you consider how "Wisdom" in the Old Testament is considered co-eternal with God and when you see God's spirit continually mentioned in the OT. Also, you have to keep in mind that "Elohim", one of the names applied to God, is a plural word suggesting Plural unity. Finally, you have the creation account in which God states, "Let us create man in our image".

The plural there is for majesty, which it seems to be in common use withing Semitic languages. in Arabic, when you speak to someone higher in stature than you, you use antum (you in plural), which functions exactly like the French vous.

That's a borrowing from French, unknown in earlier texts and not much in modern texts either.  The use of naHnu "we" is another matter.

Quote
Besides, isn't what you suggest goes againt you creed, don't you say that God is one but he is manifested in three persons. Where that from Deutoronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

The word used in the is case is the cognate of waaHid, not aHad, with the same distinction as in Arabic.  You don't say "qul Allaahu waaHid."

(For those who don't know Arabic, waaHId is one in the sense of "one in essence."  ahad is one in the sense of monism, unit, "only son" etc.)

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #197 on: July 13, 2010, 01:48:57 PM »

I am not saying anything that Goes against my creed. Yes we do indeed believe that in God there are three persons and one God. This is expressed well by the word "Elohim" which is a word that suggests plural unity, like the word "family" or the term "school of fish" or "Pack" etc. etc etc. The plurality is the number of persons. The unity is the essence, nature, being, divinity, God.


So what you're saying is that God is composed of three entities, each lacking the other? But that goes the firs of Aquinas' statements on God's qualities:

God is simple, without composition of parts, such as body and soul, or matter and form.


Also, such claim would necessary make one ask himself, how did these three parts come together? They necessitate an intelligent being to put them together.

Not to digress to defend Aquinas (who is mistaken on a number of points), but Persons aren't parts.  The monarchy of the Father provides the unity of the essence, as He eternally begets the Son, and the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father.

1x1x1=1

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Papist

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #198 on: July 13, 2010, 01:58:51 PM »

I am not saying anything that Goes against my creed. Yes we do indeed believe that in God there are three persons and one God. This is expressed well by the word "Elohim" which is a word that suggests plural unity, like the word "family" or the term "school of fish" or "Pack" etc. etc etc. The plurality is the number of persons. The unity is the essence, nature, being, divinity, God.


So what you're saying is that God is composed of three entities, each lacking the other? But that goes the firs of Aquinas' statements on God's qualities:

God is simple, without composition of parts, such as body and soul, or matter and form.


Also, such claim would necessary make one ask himself, how did these three parts come together? They necessitate an intelligent being to put them together.

Quote
How widespread is the belief that the Koran is eternal?

This is not a subject that interests the common or even most of scholars. But the consensus seems to be that the word of God is pre-eternal.
I agree with Isa. Persons aren't parts.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Online PeterTheAleut

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #199 on: July 13, 2010, 03:36:32 PM »

However, it is our duty to lead you to the True God - the Holy Trinity.


Allow me to ask you this: Do you think Abraham, Noah, Solomon, David and Moses prayed and lived in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'?

YES. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Indeed, God does not change, but this reality works against your creed not for it. The fact of the matter is, neither the Prophets not their followers prayed in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'. It take s alot of obstinacy and pride to deny that.
We have a very simple answer to this.  We Christians believe Jesus Christ to be the fulfillment of the Covenants of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Solomon, the ultimate and fullest revelation of God to man, Whom all these men anticipated.  Jesus Christ is not merely a prophet to us; rather, He is very God incarnated as a man.  I know you don't believe this and choose to preach to us as though the Old Testament is all there is, but if you're going to convince us that the dogma of the Trinity is false because the prophets of the Old Covenant never prayed to "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", you need to first convince us that Jesus Christ is not true God of true God.  This you will never do.


And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."  (Matthew 28:18-19)

This, Mekki, is the foundation for our dogma of the Holy Trinity.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:57:38 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline NorthernPines

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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #200 on: July 14, 2010, 09:35:32 AM »

This is not a subject that interests the common or even most of scholars. But the consensus seems to be that the word of God is pre-eternal.


Interesting! You believe the "word of God" is pre-eternal. Now when you use the term "word of God" you don't literally/factually mean that there was an invisible Holy Koran somewhere in the sky/outerspace do you? You mean by "word of God" something that transcends the physical cosmos. Something that is beyond our comprehension. Something that God "speaks" although God doesn't really have a literal mouth, voice box, tongue so that He could "speak". Am I right? Or do Muslims take these metaphors literally as though God was a space alien from another world? I'm asking for 2 reasons...one because I really do not know and would like to know. And two, there are some Christian sects which do pretty much see God in this way, as though He were another "being", just bigger and better than us. But a "being" none the less. But that is not historical Christian teaching, regardless of how Televangelists claim it is.

I find it interesting that you believe the "word of God" is pre-eternal. We to also believe the word of God is pre-eternal. For us though, the word of God became a man, Jesus the Christ. It's that simple. if you can believe the word of God in some sense "incarnated" into the Holy Koran, and not consider your self as seeing God as a "Duality" why cannot we accept the Trinity? Surely you see the slight double standard here?

I actually think, when Muslims and Christians stop using caricatures of each others beliefs, we often find we have far more in common than than we first assume. At least that is my opinion. But when you have been told Christians "believe in 3 gods" or that "their god is not complete" and when Christians have been told that Muslims believe this or that thing, it's hard to see past what we've always been taught to see what is really the teaching of the Church, or other faiths. Anyways that's my two cents . . . .

NP


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Re: Jesus descends
« Reply #201 on: July 14, 2010, 10:17:54 AM »

I am not saying anything that Goes against my creed. Yes we do indeed believe that in God there are three persons and one God. This is expressed well by the word "Elohim" which is a word that suggests plural unity, like the word "family" or the term "school of fish" or "Pack" etc. etc etc. The plurality is the number of persons. The unity is the essence, nature, being, divinity, God.


So what you're saying is that God is composed of three entities, each lacking the other? But that goes the firs of Aquinas' statements on God's qualities:

God is simple, without composition of parts, such as body and soul, or matter and form.



Distinction does not suggest composition.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.