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Andrew21091
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« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2010, 01:29:01 PM »

This has nothing to do with what we say, it's all about how you deal with events. Let's say Muslim around the world made a joined statements saying that they have been to Christian worst than any group has ever been to an other group, would that make you accept that treatment and ask for more, that is, turing the other cheek?

But in reality you are running away from the conversation. The martyrs of our Church turned the other cheek when they willingly accepted tortures and death for their Faith. This is why we remember the martyrs. This is why we remember what they went through so we can have the strength one day to go through what they did, God willing. We deal with the events by calling our martyrs victors over the evil of those who persecuted them. When you read a hymn to any of the martyrs, they are ones of victory, not of complaint.

For example, I just opened up my Horologion to a random page so I could find a song to a martyr and look here. From the Troparion to the Holy Hieromartyr (by the way, when they are called Hieromartyr, that means they were clergy) St. Simeon, Bishop of Jerusalem which says that through his martyrdom he "didst destroy the deception and keep the faith." Or for the Holy Hieromartyr St. Patrick, Bishop of Prusa it says of him: "Shining luminously with the beauty of the priesthood and adorned with the blood of martyrdom."

Most Troparion to martyrs are all similar in the sense that it sees martyrdom as a great reward and thats how we celebrate the martyrs. I don't see any complaint in the hymns to the martyrs.

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« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2010, 01:29:42 PM »

You misunderstand. We simply bring up what our martyrs went through in order to show the reality of what happened when you try to tell us otherwise. We remember the martyrs and we will tell about them because we must remember their sacrifices because maybe one day, we will have to face the same trials. We are not complaining about what happened, we are really just informing since you are trying to say that things were always fair for the Christians.

Fair answer, thank you. So I understand from this that the people who fought Muslims and stopped them from conquering the entirety of Europe were, in a sense, heretics, right?
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« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2010, 02:58:18 PM »


You mean that if you entered a random Church in the West you'll find it full of worshipers in a Wednesday and you'll find the mall observant to the Christian dress code and talking about religious matters and being pious all over? And the opposite if you  walked into a random mosque in the same day?


I mean the following:

Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven. Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward. But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your gift may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:1-6)

Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You give a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you neglect what is more important in the law – justice, mercy, and faithfulness! You should have done these things without neglecting the others. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel! You clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside may become clean too! ou are like whitewashed tombs that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of the bones of the dead and of everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you look righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (Matthew 23:23-28)

God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
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« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2010, 03:05:53 PM »


Nice try at using our religion to keep us silent so you can spread your lies.  Turing the other cheek, however, is not the same thing as allowing others to lie about history.



This member is just one of the many brainwashed Muslims denying Christ's truth for Mohammad's gilded lies.  Wink

I never expect him to be clever enough to see that a healthy mind would never like to be treated as a prisoner in one's own land. This Muslim is so blind that he cannot even understand his fallacious defense is not supported by the Qur'an, which presents Dhimmi as a means of punishment and humiliation. His faulty reasoning concludes: "Justice is equal to punishing and humiliating people because of their lack of faith in Islam".
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« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2010, 03:08:15 PM »

You misunderstand. We simply bring up what our martyrs went through in order to show the reality of what happened when you try to tell us otherwise. We remember the martyrs and we will tell about them because we must remember their sacrifices because maybe one day, we will have to face the same trials. We are not complaining about what happened, we are really just informing since you are trying to say that things were always fair for the Christians.

Fair answer, thank you. So I understand from this that the people who fought Muslims and stopped them from conquering the entirety of Europe were, in a sense, heretics, right?


I wonder when Muslims will study logics and stop committing logical fallacies in their religious arguments.
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« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2010, 03:29:58 PM »


You mean that if you entered a random Church in the West you'll find it full of worshipers in a Wednesday and you'll find the mall observant to the Christian dress code and talking about religious matters and being pious all over? And the opposite if you  walked into a random mosque in the same day?


I mean the following:

Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven. Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward. But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your gift may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:1-6)

Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You give a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you neglect what is more important in the law – justice, mercy, and faithfulness! You should have done these things without neglecting the others. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel! You clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside may become clean too! ou are like whitewashed tombs that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of the bones of the dead and of everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you look righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (Matthew 23:23-28)

God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)

So what you're saying is that the complete and utter dissolution and decadence that is reigning in Christian countries is intentional by Christians to hide their internal piety. I'll take your word for it.

I wonder when Muslims will study logics and stop committing logical fallacies in their religious arguments.

Could you please, dear kind sir, show me the logical fallacy in what I've said?

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« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2010, 03:37:57 PM »


So what you're saying is that the complete and utter dissolution and decadence that is reigning in Christian countries is intentional by Christians to hide their internal piety. I'll take your word for it.


This is what you WANT me to say instead of what I say and mean by quoting Jesus' words above.

Thanks for giving a fresh example of straw-man argument.  laugh



Could you please, dear kind sir, show me the logical fallacy in what I've said?


Read your response above. It includes the logical fallacy of straw man.
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« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2010, 03:53:18 PM »

This is what you WANT me to say instead of what I say and mean by quoting Jesus' words above.

Thanks for giving a fresh example of straw-man argument.  laugh

Well I'm talking about the lack of piety among Christians and you're presenting quotes warning against ostentatiousness, how else am I going to understand that? Perhaps if you can clarify the matter.



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« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2010, 03:58:14 PM »



Well I'm talking about the lack of piety among Christians and you're presenting quotes warning against ostentatiousness, how else am I going to understand that? Perhaps if you can clarify the matter.

The examples you gave to prove the supposed piety of Muslims in your tale are direct examples of ostentatiousness. In your opinion, covering the head and praying often in a mosque suffice to denote piety, which is not the case according to Jesus.
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« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2010, 04:12:05 PM »

Hate to say it, but you're probably right.  Our greatest Saints show up when we're persecuted.  The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church.  But the Latins gave us some good persecutin' too.  Islam can't take all the credit.  And don't forget the Communists!

That's not quite what I was talking about. If what you said ws true, Catholicism would be the purest religion on Earth as it was the maint target of the "Enlightenment" which thought to annihilate anything Traditional, and anything of supra-human nature. And where is "turning the other cheek" as most Christians seem to interpret it, you're not supposed to whine even if you were killed, but to call paying Jizya a prosecution is an exaseration to say the least.

Quote
As to the OP, I think if our Lord were to come to some modern McChurches he would probably be appalled at the commerce being done in his name.  Likewise, if the Prophet came back, he would be appalled at 13 year old girls getting gang raped, informing the police, then being stoned for adultery. 

Even if there multiple cases like what you described, it would almost impossible to come across it due to the odds. But the fact is, it's a single case that happened in Somalia. And there's no ambiguation about the Islamic stance on the subject, the girls goes and the rapists gets punished.

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “Stone him to death.” (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)
So she was forgiven for nothing she had done. Allah is surely most merciful. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2010, 04:17:26 PM »

They also practise non-resistance, which means they are peace-loving people who are opposed to war and killing people. I think we could learn from their example.

Moses and David waged wars and killed people, what do you think of them? Why did central Christian figures have swords on them and used them, like George? The only thing that saved Christianity from disappearence is that most, if not all, of the Christian who were in power didn't hold this interpretation of things.
So you keep saying.  But you still haven't explained how this:

submitted to this:
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« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2010, 04:20:23 PM »

Christ teaches us a new way under the New Covenant. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? From a worldly perspective, peacefulness and loving our enemies may be incomprehensible, but for some Christians, this is the only way. Yes, it is radical, it is difficult, but the Christian life is never easy.

Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism. When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation. And I quite honestly think that before People start claiming pacifism they should actively seek the abolishment of their states' armies first.

Furthermore. Anything that was said at the mountain was thought by all Prophets.
Hardly.
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« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2010, 05:03:59 PM »

So you keep saying.  But you still haven't explained how this:

submitted to this:


By not holding a pacifist stance through prosecuting pagans and "heretics" and defending the empire against invaders. This is quite simple frankly.

But even if we were to say that Rome abolished its army and never used it again after adopting Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that the Prophets still waged wars and killed people both in defence and in offence.
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« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2010, 05:11:00 PM »


By not holding a pacifist stance through prosecuting pagans and "heretics" and defending the empire against invaders. This is quite simple frankly.

But even if we were to say that Rome abolished its army and never used it again after adopting Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that the Prophets still waged wars and killed people both in defence and in offence.


Why should Rome have abolished her army after embracing Christianity? Christ did not sripulate such a thing.

Which prophets are you talking about when you say they killed people? It seems you are confusing leaders (kings) with prophets.
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« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2010, 05:20:30 PM »

Why should Rome have abolished her army after embracing Christianity? Christ did not sripulate such a thing.

Of course he didn't, I didn't say he did, not did I say rome should've thrown its swrods. But some Christians claim that pacifism is the Christian stance on warfare, which means that a Christian state should not have an army.

Quote
Which prophets are you talking about when you say they killed people? It seems you are confusing leaders (kings) with prophets.

Take the two examples I've been giving all along: Moses and David.
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« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2010, 05:39:11 PM »


Of course he didn't, I didn't say he did, not did I say rome should've thrown its swrods. But some Christians claim that pacifism is the Christian stance on warfare, which means that a Christian state should not have an army.

There is no Christian state in the world in the sense of an Islamic state. There are Christian individuals.



Take the two examples I've been giving all along: Moses and David.

David was a KING. Samuel was a prophet.

Moses was the LEADER of the Israelites at the time of the Exodus.

Kings and leaders of nations/tribes wage wars. This is something natural. However, you cannot use these figures to support your generalization that all prophets were or had to be warriors.



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« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2010, 05:50:38 PM »

There is no Christian state in the world in the sense of an Islamic state. There are Christian individuals.

The Roman and Byzantine Empires fit the definition of a state in all and every aspect, and those two are far form being the only Christian states.

David was a KING. Samuel was a prophet.

Moses was the LEADER of the Israelites at the time of the Exodus.

Kings and leaders of nations/tribes wage wars. This is something natural. However, you cannot use these figures to support your generalization that all prophets were or had to be warriors.

David was both prophet and a king and so was Saul.

All I'm trying to say that pacifism is not the "Biblical" position, that is, it was not what he Prophets thought. The second thing I want to say is that if you consider pacifism to be the Christian position even though it contradicts what the Prophets were ordered to believe and practice by God Almighty, then that's up, but you can't claim that was is inherently evil as you would be committing a clear blasphemy then.



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« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2010, 06:07:16 PM »

Let me tell you this, paying a higher tax than the local population is much, much, much more fair than you can ever imagine.



You need to go to a board where the group posting there has never lived under Islam.  You need to go elsewhere to have people believe your fairy tales and justifications.  

The tax was not fair.  It was never fair.  There were times in history, such as during the eighth century, when the taxes were so ruinously high that no one could possible pay them.  When they couldn't be paid, people were given the choice to convert to Islam or be put to the sword.  The Armenians would never convert, so they would be put to the sword.  Or, I should say, the men were put to the sword while the women and children were taken and sold into slavery, often sexual slavery.  Entire cities were wiped off the map this way.  And your justification that this was an act against a rebellious people is just a lie.  These cities were wiped out because they could not pay a tax and they would not convert.  

And the taxes were not only monetary.  Throughout the history of Islamic rule, there was also a tax to be paid in women and children, the most notorious being the Devshirme tax of the Ottomans.  Even after the Devshirme was abolished (not for humanitarian reasons, but because the Sultan became afraid of them,) women and children were still taken.  Usually it was prepubescent girls who were taken to be sold as concubines.  It wasn't exclusively girls, though.  In Istanbul there was a notorious brothel that was staffed with little boys for men who had that perversion.  The little boys were forcibly taken from Christian homes, as part of your "fair" tax.

This sort of thing continued into the early 20th century.  The sheer barbarity of the practice cannot be quantified, and you call it "fair."  How fair would you call it if in Christian countries Muslims were subject to having their twelve year old daughters dragged away from their homes, never to be seen by their families again, so that they can be sold as concubines?  That was the daily life of Christians living in Muslim countries for 13 centuries.  My great grandmother was married at a very young age just to avoid being taken like that.  She used to describe to my mom how the girls in her village would cut their faces so they wouldn't be taken when news came that the Turks were coming.

Your attempts to justify atrocities won't work here.  Go elsewhere with this cr*p.  You can also go elsewhere with your insulting caricatures of Christians.  You want proof of devotion to God?  How about enduring 13 centuries of persecution, slaughter, and watching your children be dragged off to be sold as sex slaves, all because you refuse to convert to another religion?  Is that devout enough for you?  

And I haven't even touched on the Genocide.  That will just make me mad, and I don't want to be mad this morning.

Your posts here make me sick.  

The post from which you've quoted that part explains in enough details why the Dhimmi status is more than fair. I don't think I have to repeat that.

And may I ask you something; Why would you complain about anything that might have happened to you if you understand Jesus' saying to trun the other cheek as you do? There seems to be a lack of consistency there.
That is about the most hypocritical thing I've ever read! You justify Muslim persecution of Christians by telling us that we need to turn the other cheek. That's like saying, "Hold still and don't resist as I put this bullet through your head."  Rather than lecture us on how we should follow our Gospel so that you might see your vested interests fulfilled, maybe you should take a good close look at your religion and see how evil it is that it would be the agent of such persecution.
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« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2010, 06:07:41 PM »


The Roman and Byzantine Empires fit the definition of a state in all and every aspect, and those two are far form being the only Christian states.

You seem to have difficulty reading what I write.

There is no Christian state in the world in the sense of an Islamic state. Byzantine was an earthly empire that had man-made state laws. The Roman Empire existed before the birth of Christianity.


David was both prophet and a king and so was Saul.

David waged wars because he was not only a prophet, but also a king. Saul was only a king, not a prophet.

All I'm trying to say that pacifism is not the "Biblical" position, that is, it was not what he Prophets thought. The second thing I want to say is that if you consider pacifism to be the Christian position even though it contradicts what the Prophets were ordered to believe and practice by God Almighty, then that's up, but you can't claim that was is inherently evil as you would be committing a clear blasphemy then.


Jesus' words refute your argument as they are in the Bible.  

If you say what Jesus taught is not what the prophets taught, you are committing a clear blasphemy even according to your Islamic tenet.

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« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2010, 07:54:15 PM »

So you keep saying.  But you still haven't explained how this:

submitted to this:


By not holding a pacifist stance through prosecuting pagans and "heretics" and defending the empire against invaders. This is quite simple frankly.

Constantine prosecuted neither pagans nor heretics:that's how the Arians were in a position to persecute the Orthodox after his death.  He did favor the Orthodox Christians over both (for the most part).  And Christ didn't speak against self defense against invaders.

But you still haven't addressed the issue: who did the Church, without an army, conquer the Roman Empire and the Kingdom of Armenia, after three centuries of being under capital sentence?

Quote
But even if we were to say that Rome abolished its army and never used it again after adopting Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that the Prophets still waged wars and killed people both in defence and in offence.
Even if they did, after Christ, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, had come, His Way takes precedence.
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« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2010, 07:54:47 PM »

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “Stone him to death.” (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

Not quite:

Quote
Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.

She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).

When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366

First why did Muhammad say to the woman "..for Allah has forgiven you"? Forgiven her for WHAT???

Second notice that the man who raped her CONFESSED that he raped her. What if the man who rapes the woman DOES NOT CONFESS? What if he DENIES it?

Here's the reality for women under Shari'ah:

Quote
The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Dr. Muhammad Matraji, tr. (New Delhi: Islamic Book Service, 2002), Number 2658.

Muhammad makes himself quite clear that he considers the testimony of a woman of lessor worth than the testimony of a man because he believes that women are stupid!

What does this imply for governing authorities like the police, lawyers and judges in Shari'ah courts? Let me paint a picture that is very common in Muslim countries:

A Christian teenage girl is gang raped by a group of Muslim men. She reports them and the police arrest them. When the men are questioned they DENY that they raped her, instead they say that she was a prostitute because she was wearing a miniskirt and no headscarf. Who will the authorities likely side with? The girl or the men? Why the men of course because the girl's testimony is of lessor worth, because "Muhammad said so"! And the result: the girl is punished while the men walk off scot free!!! Happens all the time.

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« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2010, 07:56:44 PM »

Why should Rome have abolished her army after embracing Christianity? Christ did not sripulate such a thing.

Of course he didn't, I didn't say he did, not did I say rome should've thrown its swrods. But some Christians claim that pacifism is the Christian stance on warfare, which means that a Christian state should not have an army.

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Which prophets are you talking about when you say they killed people? It seems you are confusing leaders (kings) with prophets.

Take the two examples I've been giving all along: Moses and David.
And Moses didn't make it into the Promised Land, and David was barred from building the Temple.
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« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2010, 10:32:58 PM »

First of all, welcome to the forum. I don't remember us having a Muslim member on this board before,

I don't recall if Gabriel was still Muslim when he first came here. It's been a while.  Smiley

No, friend, al-hamdulillahi ('Praise God' as the Muslims say), I was not Muslim when I found this forum.  I left Islam back in 2001-02 and Glory to Jesus the Christ, was baptized and chrismated on October 9th, 2004. 
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« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2010, 10:49:12 PM »

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats. He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.

Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.

Mekki,

 I want to back up just a bit and address this post again.  On another thread, you initiated discussion on 42 hadiths and how they would compare to Orthodox Christianity.  You stated that you were not proselytizing there.  Though your words ring somewhat dubious, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that thread.  But what exactly is it that you're trying to say on this thread?  You've compared Christians to Muslims and then (not surprisingly) asserted that Muslims are more pious and attuned to their vows while Christians are far, far less pious and even lackadaisical.  What is it you wish to gain from these hurtful words?  If you want to prove that there are Christians who are lazy and remain sinners, you're correct for I am one of them.  I freely admit that I need Christ and His Church in my life.  Are you trying to tell us that there are many wonderful Muslims who care deeply about their faith?  Again, I freely will go along with you here too.  I have known many kind, thoughtful and patient Muslims whom Christians could probably learn a little from.  But I'm just having a difficult time surmising what it is you want us to think or say about your post here.  Huh


 
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« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2010, 03:31:22 AM »

Quote
That is about the most hypocritical thing I've ever read! You justify Muslim persecution of Christians by telling us that we need to turn the other cheek. That's like saying, "Hold still and don't resist as I put this bullet through your head."  Rather than lecture us on how we should follow our Gospel so that you might see your vested interests fulfilled, maybe you should take a good close look at your religion and see how evil it is that it would be the agent of such persecution.

If by prosecuting, you mean putting limitations one a person, then yes, indeed, Islam prosecutes Christians as it prosecutes Muslims and everyone else for putting limitation on a the life of the populace is the very definition of the law.

However, if by prosecution you mean preventing them from worship, then that is not Islamic and if anyone did it then he was acting against the Law. In the overwhelming majority of the time, Christians got a more than fair (I insist on it) treatment considering their situation, and please don't bring forward historical events, I've said the majority of the time and you know it's true.
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« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2010, 03:38:30 AM »


You seem to have difficulty reading what I write.

There is no Christian state in the world in the sense of an Islamic state. Byzantine was an earthly empire that had man-made state laws. The Roman Empire existed before the birth of Christianity.

So the Byzantine empire was not Orthodox! I'm not quite sure this is the canonical Orthodox position on the matter.


David waged wars because he was not only a prophet, but also a king. Saul was only a king, not a prophet.

If war is evil, it is not justified by being a king. Are you suggesting that Moses and David committed such great evil by commandment from God and it was all recorded in the Bible?

Quote
Jesus' words refute your argument as they are in the Bible.  

If you say what Jesus taught is not what the prophets taught, you are committing a clear blasphemy even according to your Islamic tenet.


That's your interpretation of Jesus' words. I'm arguing that this interpretation is wrong because it it goes against the bible and the Prophetic tradition and because it's quite simply impossible, that is it is impossible to be pacifist.

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« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2010, 03:44:43 AM »

Constantine prosecuted neither pagans nor heretics:that's how the Arians were in a position to persecute the Orthodox after his death.  He did favor the Orthodox Christians over both (for the most part).  And Christ didn't speak against self defense against invaders.

Regardless of what Constantine did, the fact remains that the Roman empire fought everyone into submitting and, unlike what Muslims did, embracing the agreed on Christian creed.

Quote
But you still haven't addressed the issue: who did the Church, without an army, conquer the Roman Empire and the Kingdom of Armenia, after three centuries of being under capital sentence?

By the heads of the Empire converting and then fighting everyone else into it, which is fine by me unless it result into forced conversion.

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Even if they did, after Christ, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, had come, His Way takes precedence.

So you're taking a Protestant position now, yes? What did Matta 5:17 say?
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« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2010, 03:49:30 AM »


However, if by prosecution you mean preventing them from worship, then that is not Islamic and if anyone did it then he was acting against the Law. In the overwhelming majority of the time, Christians got a more than fair (I insist on it) treatment considering their situation, and please don't bring forward historical events, I've said the majority of the time and you know it's true.

This is a lie. Islamic governments always prevent Christians from obeying their Lord's commandment in the Gospel: "Go and proclaim the Gospel to all nations". Preaching any religion other than Islam is not allowed (considered a crime) under Islamic Sharia.
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« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2010, 03:51:32 AM »

First why did Muhammad say to the woman "..for Allah has forgiven you"? Forgiven her for WHAT???

It simply means that no sin was recorded against here, it doesn't mean she did something wrong but she was forgiven for it, otherwise she would've been punished on Earth.

Quote
Second notice that the man who raped her CONFESSED that he raped her. What if the man who rapes the woman DOES NOT CONFESS? What if he DENIES it?

Well, she needs to provide some kind of evidence. We can't punish anyone due to anyone's claim. Read this and be ready to be chocked by the human mentality:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1292055/Student-jailed-rape-claim-invented-extension-course-work.html





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« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2010, 03:52:47 AM »

And Moses didn't make it into the Promised Land, and David was barred from building the Temple.

So you're saying that they were punished for not being pacifists, yes? Is this the position of the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2010, 03:55:11 AM »

Mekki,

 I want to back up just a bit and address this post again.  On another thread, you initiated discussion on 42 hadiths and how they would compare to Orthodox Christianity.  You stated that you were not proselytizing there.  Though your words ring somewhat dubious, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that thread.  But what exactly is it that you're trying to say on this thread?  You've compared Christians to Muslims and then (not surprisingly) asserted that Muslims are more pious and attuned to their vows while Christians are far, far less pious and even lackadaisical.  What is it you wish to gain from these hurtful words?  If you want to prove that there are Christians who are lazy and remain sinners, you're correct for I am one of them.  I freely admit that I need Christ and His Church in my life.  Are you trying to tell us that there are many wonderful Muslims who care deeply about their faith?  Again, I freely will go along with you here too.  I have known many kind, thoughtful and patient Muslims whom Christians could probably learn a little from.  But I'm just having a difficult time surmising what it is you want us to think or say about your post here.  Huh

I'm just stating a hardly disputable fact. You can either take it as an indication of Islam's superiority or as a sign that Christians have some problem to work on. For me it's both, there's nothing better than a Christian embracing the light, but if not, I'd like to live in a society where both Muslims and Christians lead virtuous lives.
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« Reply #76 on: July 12, 2010, 03:56:35 AM »

Quote
That is about the most hypocritical thing I've ever read! You justify Muslim persecution of Christians by telling us that we need to turn the other cheek. That's like saying, "Hold still and don't resist as I put this bullet through your head."  Rather than lecture us on how we should follow our Gospel so that you might see your vested interests fulfilled, maybe you should take a good close look at your religion and see how evil it is that it would be the agent of such persecution.

If by prosecuting, you mean putting limitations one a person, then yes, indeed, Islam prosecutes Christians as it prosecutes Muslims and everyone else for putting limitation on a the life of the populace is the very definition of the law.

However, if by prosecution you mean preventing them from worship, then that is not Islamic and if anyone did it then he was acting against the Law. In the overwhelming majority of the time, Christians got a more than fair (I insist on it) treatment considering their situation, and please don't bring forward historical events, I've said the majority of the time and you know it's true.
Which word do you intend to use here:  "prosecute" or "persecute"?  The former is deserved, while the latter is not.

Otherwise, let me put my words this way:  Your co-religionists invade a Christian country and place the resident Christians in a clearly second-class status with your dhimmi tax, which others have pointed out involves such things as kidnapping of women and children to make them sex slaves. And you have the gall to remind us of our Lord's command that we turn the other cheek? Why the hell should we follow your advice? You clearly have a vested interest in seeing that we not resist the persecution you advocate as "fair" and "just".

BTW, regarding this "bringing forward historical events", I'm only attacking your justification of past (and current?) atrocities your co-religionists have committed (and continue to commit?) against Orthodox Christians and your advice that we "turn the other cheek"--IOW, not fight back or complain as your cronies rape our women and children.
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« Reply #77 on: July 12, 2010, 03:57:13 AM »

This is a lie. Islamic governments always prevent Christians from obeying their Lord's commandment in the Gospel: "Go and proclaim the Gospel to all nations". Preaching any religion other than Islam is not allowed (considered a crime) under Islamic Sharia.

So that's what you were talking about when you said prosecution? You scared me for a while! Well, that's a part of the limitations I was talking about.
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« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2010, 04:01:27 AM »


So the Byzantine empire was not Orthodox! I'm not quite sure this is the canonical Orthodox position on the matter.

I am sick of your straw man arguments. Stop ascribing to me the distorted version of my views. 

If war is evil, it is not justified by being a king. Are you suggesting that Moses and David committed such great evil by commandment from God and it was all recorded in the Bible?

I do not say war is evil. Nations wage wars to survive. It is natural. However, neither Moses nor David said that prophets had to wage wars for the spread of their faith.

That's your interpretation of Jesus' words.

Show me a single verse where Jesus commands His followers to wage wars for His rescue from the hands of His enemies.
Cite a New Testament verse where Jesus says religious war for the spread of His doctrines is crucial.
Quote a single New Testament verse where Jesus asks His followers to spread the Gospel with sword.


I'm arguing that this interpretation is wrong because it it goes against the bible and the Prophetic tradition and because it's quite simply impossible, that is it is impossible to be pacifist.


Jesus' words do not need an interpretation as they are so simple and straightforward. You object to Jesus' statements because they go against what Mohammad taught. It was and is possible to preach the Gospel without the sword.
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« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2010, 04:04:12 AM »

Which word do you intend to use here:  "prosecute" or "persecute"?  The former is deserved, while the latter is not.

Otherwise, let me put my words this way:  Your co-religionists invade a Christian country and place the resident Christians in a clearly second-class status with your dhimmi tax, which others have pointed out involves such things as kidnapping of women and children to make them sex slaves. And you have the gall to remind us of our Lord's command that turn the other cheek? Why the hell should we follow your advice? You clearly have a vested interest in seeing that we not resist the persecution you advocate as "fair" and "just".

BTW, regarding this "bringing forward historical events", I'm only attacking your apparent justification of past (and current?) atrocities your co-religionists have committed (and continue to commit?) against Orthodox Christians and your apparent advice that we "turn the other cheek"--IOW, not fight back as your cronies rape our women and children.

I'm just curious whether or not you find it observant to that commandmen, like you interpret it, to whine about any thing that happens to you, regardless of whether what happens to you is fair or not.

And of course I would've loved it if you truly turned the other cheek like you think it means, not because I like to see you harmed, Like I said, the Legal and Historical treatment that Christians get is more than fair, aside from exceptional cases. I would've like it because Islam would've spread more easily. The overwhelming majority of the World would've been Muslim and wouldn't have to live in the filth of this modern world.
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« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2010, 04:04:33 AM »


So that's what you were talking about when you said prosecution? You scared me for a while! Well, that's a part of the limitations I was talking about.

Call it whatever you want. These limitations deny Christians the right to obey their religion. How can you say that Christians are granted the right to worship and remain Christians then?  laugh
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« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2010, 04:07:04 AM »

Of course, if Jesus truly is nothing more than a prophet, then He is merely another prophet of the Old Testament, and the New Testament means nothing.  This is one of the themes I see guiding Mekki's arguments here, and I think we can address his reasoning more effectively if we take this premise into account.
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« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2010, 04:07:44 AM »


And of course I would've loved it if you truly turned the other cheek like you think it means, not because I like to see you harmed, Like I said, the Legal and Historical treatment that Christians get is more than fair, aside from exceptional cases. I would've like it because Islam would've spread more easily. The overwhelming majority of the World would've been Muslim and wouldn't have to live in the filth of this modern world.

Turning the other cheek does not mean to submit to Satan or lies. Jesus never asked us to do this.

Thanks and praise be to YHWH, who protects us against the filth of Mohammad's false religion.
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« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2010, 04:19:33 AM »

Which word do you intend to use here:  "prosecute" or "persecute"?  The former is deserved, while the latter is not.

Otherwise, let me put my words this way:  Your co-religionists invade a Christian country and place the resident Christians in a clearly second-class status with your dhimmi tax, which others have pointed out involves such things as kidnapping of women and children to make them sex slaves. And you have the gall to remind us of our Lord's command that turn the other cheek? Why the hell should we follow your advice? You clearly have a vested interest in seeing that we not resist the persecution you advocate as "fair" and "just".

BTW, regarding this "bringing forward historical events", I'm only attacking your apparent justification of past (and current?) atrocities your co-religionists have committed (and continue to commit?) against Orthodox Christians and your apparent advice that we "turn the other cheek"--IOW, not fight back as your cronies rape our women and children.

I'm just curious whether or not you find it observant to that commandmen, like you interpret it, to whine about any thing that happens to you, regardless of whether what happens to you is fair or not.
What does it matter to you? Huh You clearly have a vested interest in seeing that we Christians not resist your invasions of our lands, so why should we listen to you when you remind us to turn the other cheek? When we Christians remind each other of that command of our Lord, we do so to spur each other on to the obedience to our Lord that saves us. When you remind us of that command, it's obvious that you do so merely so your co-religionists will find us ready to submit passively to your demands. You clearly don't have our salvation at heart.

BTW, just as you're putting words into Theophilos's mouth, you're putting words into my mouth. Rather than interpret our words the way you want to to fit your reasoning, you should actually listen to and address what we're really saying. I did not say what you just said I said.

And of course I would've loved it if you truly turned the other cheek like you think it means, not because I like to see you harmed, Like I said, the Legal and Historical treatment that Christians get is more than fair, aside from exceptional cases. I would've like it because Islam would've spread more easily. The overwhelming majority of the World would've been Muslim and wouldn't have to live in the filth of this modern world.
More evidence of your vested interest in seeing us passively subservient...  I've heard it said that the reason Jesus told us to turn the other cheek when an enemy strikes us on the one is to show our enemy just how evil his actions are so that he may repent. If instead of striking back we turn the other cheek, we allow our enemy the option to either continue his merciless attack or see how evil it is that he's willing to continue striking someone who won't fight back. Hopefully, this conviction of heart will lead him to repent and seek reconciliation rather than press his attack. If this bit of insight into Christ's mind is true--it really makes a lot of sense to me--then you're just showing how wicked your motives are that you would tell us to turn the other cheek just so you won't find us resisting your co-religionists' continued attacks on our faith and on our people.
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« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2010, 04:21:20 AM »


So that's what you were talking about when you said prosecution? You scared me for a while! Well, that's a part of the limitations I was talking about.

Call it whatever you want. These limitations deny Christians the right to obey their religion. How can you say that Christians are granted the right to worship and remain Christians then?  laugh

Come on, work with me here! In order for two different doctrines to co-exist one must be, more or less, conditioned. We would've loved if we would allow Christians to do everything they believe their books tell them to do, but that simply can't happen both de facto and de jure.
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« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2010, 04:22:20 AM »

Thanks and praise be to YHWH, who protects us against the filth of false religion.

Amin ya rabba al-'alamin.
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« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2010, 04:35:10 AM »


Come on, work with me here! In order for two different doctrines to co-exist one must be, more or less, conditioned. We would've loved if we would allow Christians to do everything they believe their books tell them to do, but that simply can't happen both de facto and de jure.

Who stipulates that? Who determines which doctrine will be conditioned? To what extent?

More to the point, what you are defining is not co-existence. If there is co-existence, BOTH doctrines will be conditioned so as not to assimilate or destroy the other. What Islam aims to do is gradually replace every other religion with Islam.
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« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2010, 04:52:37 AM »

Who stipulates that? Who determines which doctrine will be conditioned? To what extent?

Whoever is victorious of course. Both Muslims and Christians would like their religions to reign in full glory, but we're not going to play rock-paper-scissors to decide, or call for Zoroastrians to judge between us.

Quote
More to the point, what you are defining is not co-existence. If there is co-existence, BOTH doctrines will be conditioned so as not to assimilate or destroy the other. What Islam aims to do is gradually replace every other religion with Islam.

So instead if one being conditioned you're suggesting that both should be conditioned, I can't see how such wish would be fueled by anything other than spite. I mean one is conditioned regardless, why would you want the other to be conditioned as well?

As for co-existence, it simply means that the ideas exist in the same space or among the same population.

Please read a few words I wrote about the subject here:

http://omniavincitveritas.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/the-multiculturalism-fallacy/
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« Reply #88 on: July 12, 2010, 04:58:42 AM »

So instead if one being conditioned you're suggesting that both should be conditioned, I can't see how such wish would be fueled by anything other than spite. I mean one is conditioned regardless, why would you want the other to be conditioned as well?
Do we want Arians or Nestorians to be conditioned so as to not destroy or assimilate us? No. We want them to repent of their heresies and return to the Christian faith. The same is true of our desire for Muslims.
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Mekki
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« Reply #89 on: July 12, 2010, 05:06:02 AM »

So instead if one being conditioned you're suggesting that both should be conditioned, I can't see how such wish would be fueled by anything other than spite. I mean one is conditioned regardless, why would you want the other to be conditioned as well?
Do we want Arians or Nestorians to be conditioned so as to not destroy or assimilate us? No. We want them to repent of their heresies and return to the Christian faith. The same is true of our desire for Muslims.

Same here. So I guess we agree. you wouldn't agree to take a middle path between the divinity and non-divinity of Christ just because Arians live among you. You also wouldn't let them preach their doctrines. AndI'm not even going to touch on the fact that you've physically persecuted them and all other 'heretics'.
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