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« Reply #135 on: July 13, 2010, 02:37:50 AM »

By the way, Salpy, I apologize for saying that I don't believe you like that. It's not that I think you're lying, it's just stories tend to be told different then how they happened, especially if the people telling the story had an interest in changing them a bit, as in smearing a people that they despise.

The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?
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« Reply #136 on: July 13, 2010, 03:20:27 AM »


The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?

This is another Islamic lie.

How could the Ottomans not force Christians to convert despite the limitations they put on them? Those very limitations (particularly the high taxes Christians were made to pay because of their faith) meant to convert people to Islam.
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« Reply #137 on: July 13, 2010, 03:27:37 AM »


The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?

This is another Islamic lie.

How could the Ottomans not force Christians to convert despite the limitations they put on them? Those very limitations (particularly the high taxes Christians were made to pay because of their faith) meant to convert people to Islam.



I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.
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« Reply #138 on: July 13, 2010, 03:37:05 AM »


I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

It is not a claim, but a fact. Ottomans were afraid of the Armenian population in the eastern part of the Empire and conducted genocide on them, using the war as a pretext.
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« Reply #139 on: July 13, 2010, 03:40:17 AM »


I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

It is not a claim, but a fact. Ottomans were afraid of the Armenian population in the eastern part of the Empire and conducted genocide on them, using the war as a pretext.

I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.
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« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2010, 03:58:03 AM »


I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.

You were argumentative as you used the word CLAIM in your message.

I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

See?  Who is blind here? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #141 on: July 13, 2010, 04:09:36 AM »


I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.

You were argumentative as you used the word CLAIM in your message.

I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

See?  Who is blind here? Roll Eyes


First of all, when I said claim, I wasn't refering to the kiilling itself, but that the reason behind it being an attempt to convert the man. Both are in fact claims, as every statement is a claim, whether or not it's true is another story.

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« Reply #142 on: July 13, 2010, 04:22:54 AM »


First of all, when I said claim, I wasn't refering to the kiilling itself, but that the reason behind it being an attempt to convert the man. Both are in fact claims, as every statement is a claim, whether or not it's true is another story.

You said claim about SLAUGHTER.
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« Reply #143 on: July 13, 2010, 04:30:53 AM »


First of all, when I said claim, I wasn't refering to the kiilling itself, but that the reason behind it being an attempt to convert the man. Both are in fact claims, as every statement is a claim, whether or not it's true is another story.

You said claim about SLAUGHTER.

Like I've explained, that is a claim, but it was not what I referred to when I used the word. Not that I'm saying the slaughter happened, that has nothing to do with the argument.
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« Reply #144 on: July 13, 2010, 05:05:49 AM »


I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

It is not a claim, but a fact. Ottomans were afraid of the Armenian population in the eastern part of the Empire and conducted genocide on them, using the war as a pretext.

I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.
What "message of Christ" do you want us to see?
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« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2010, 05:17:48 AM »


I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

It is not a claim, but a fact. Ottomans were afraid of the Armenian population in the eastern part of the Empire and conducted genocide on them, using the war as a pretext.

I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.
What "message of Christ" do you want us to see?

To wroship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.

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« Reply #146 on: July 13, 2010, 05:20:37 AM »


To wroship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.


The moon god of Islam is not the transcendent One.

More, you try to mutilate the ONE by trying to remove His eternal Word and His eternal Love from His essence.
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« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2010, 05:25:01 AM »


To wroship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.


The moon god of Islam is not the transcendent One.

More, you try to mutilate the ONE by trying to remove His eternal Word and His eternal Love from His essence.

The all-transcendent One, is indeed the God of the moon, as he is the sun, the planets and the stars. He is indeed the Lord of the heavens and the Earth. May he be satisfied with us.
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« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2010, 05:32:52 AM »

وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ لِأَبِيهِ آزَرَ أَتَتَّخِذُ أَصْنَامًا آلِهَةً إِنِّي أَرَاكَ وَقَوْمَكَ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُبِينٍ. وَكَذَلِكَ نُرِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ مَلَكُوتَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلِيَكُونَ مِنْ الْمُوقِنِينَ. فَلَمَّا جَنَّ عَلَيْهِ اللَّيْلُ رَأَى كَوْكَبًا قَالَ هَذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَا أُحِبُّ الْآفِلِينَ. فَلَمَّا رَأَى الْقَمَرَ بَازِغًا قَالَ هَذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَئِنْ لَمْ يَهْدِنِي رَبِّي لَأَكُونَنَّ مِنْ الْقَوْمِ الضَّالِّينَ. فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَذَا رَبِّي هَذَا أَكْبَرُ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ. إِنِّي وَجَّهْتُ وَجْهِي لِلَّذِي فَطَرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا أَنَا مِنْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ


Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar: "Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error." So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude. When the night covered him over, He saw a star: He said: "This is my Lord." But when it set, He said: "I love not those that set." When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said: "unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray." When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah. "For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah." (6:74-79)
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« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2010, 05:33:49 AM »


To wroship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.


The moon god of Islam is not the transcendent One.

More, you try to mutilate the ONE by trying to remove His eternal Word and His eternal Love from His essence.

The all-transcendent One, is indeed the God of the moon, as he is the sun, the planets and the stars. He is indeed the Lord of the heavens and the Earth. May he be satisfied with us.
Please be very careful here.  Up 'til now, you've merely been boasting of the superiority of your religion, but now you're starting to sound as if you're proselytizing us.  I'm not sure you realize how much you risk by coming to this Orthodox Christian discussion community to try to convert us to Islam.  We do have rules against such proselytization.
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« Reply #150 on: July 13, 2010, 05:52:20 AM »


To worship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.


The moon god of Islam is not the transcendent One.

More, you try to mutilate the ONE by trying to remove His eternal Word and His eternal Love from His essence.

The all-transcendent One, is indeed the God of the moon, as he is the sun, the planets and the stars. He is indeed the Lord of the heavens and the Earth. May he be satisfied with us.
Please be very careful here.  Up 'til now, you've merely been boasting of the superiority of your religion, but now you're starting to sound as if you're proselytizing us.  I'm not sure you realize how much you risk by coming to this Orthodox Christian discussion community to try to convert us to Islam.  We do have rules against such proselytizing.

I apologize if it sounded like that, I'm a guest among you and I'm willing to act as such, but the fact of the matter is that you have directed a question towards me.

Also, I've read the rules and none of them concerns proselytizing or expressing non Orthodox Christian view.

I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?
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« Reply #151 on: July 13, 2010, 08:26:34 AM »


You know what?  You are offensive.

There is no "official" stance on anything particularly "Muslim" in Orthodoxy.  The Orthodox are only concerned with Orthodoxy.   We really don't care about your misguided beliefs.

However, it is our duty to lead you to the True God - the Holy Trinity.

Therefore, please continue to read our forum and hopefully you will be open to receive the Truth.

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« Reply #152 on: July 13, 2010, 08:32:38 AM »


However, it is our duty to lead you to the True God - the Holy Trinity.


Allow me to ask you this: Do you think Abraham, Noah, Solomon, David and Moses prayed and lived in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'?
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« Reply #153 on: July 13, 2010, 08:47:32 AM »


However, it is our duty to lead you to the True God - the Holy Trinity.


Allow me to ask you this: Do you think Abraham, Noah, Solomon, David and Moses prayed and lived in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'?

YES. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
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« Reply #154 on: July 13, 2010, 08:56:14 AM »


However, it is our duty to lead you to the True God - the Holy Trinity.


Allow me to ask you this: Do you think Abraham, Noah, Solomon, David and Moses prayed and lived in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'?

YES. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Indeed, God does not change, but this reality works against your creed not for it. The fact of the matter is, neither the Prophets not their followers prayed in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'. It take s alot of obstinacy and pride to deny that.
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« Reply #155 on: July 13, 2010, 08:58:39 AM »


Indeed, God does not change, but this reality works against your creed not for it. The fact of the matter is, neither the Prophets not their followers prayed in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'. It take s alot of obstinacy and pride to deny that.

All those figures prayed in the name of Elohim YHWH, who IS the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

None of the biblical figures prayed in the name of Allah/Hubal (the moon god of pagans).
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« Reply #156 on: July 13, 2010, 09:28:28 AM »


Indeed, God does not change, but this reality works against your creed not for it. The fact of the matter is, neither the Prophets not their followers prayed in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'. It take s alot of obstinacy and pride to deny that.

All those figures prayed in the name of Elohim YHWH, who IS the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Your argument has exactly the same validity as claiming that the Prophets worshipped Vinshnu and Krishna because they worshipped YHWH who is Vishnu and Krishna.

I repeat my question. Did the Prophets conciously pray in the name of the 'Father, the son and the holy ghose'? Did any Prophet ever utter the words "O Israelities, why don't worship the trinity?" or something to that effect?

Your salvation may lay in your answer for those questions.

Pride will not be an excuse when you will face your Creator.



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« Reply #157 on: July 13, 2010, 09:57:22 AM »


Your argument has exactly the same validity as claiming that the Prophets worshipped Vinshnu and Krishna because they worshipped YHWH who is Vishnu and Krishna.

YHWH is not Vishnu and Krishna, nor is YHWH Mohammad's moon god (Allah).

Vishnu and Krishna never claimed to be equal to YHWH either.

If you read the Torah, there you can see references to YHWH, His creative Word (intellect), and His Spirit (life). This is the same as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christian Trinitarian doctrine is not independent of the true God YHWH of the Old Testament. We cannot say the same about your moon god though.


I repeat my question. Did the Prophets conciously pray in the name of the 'Father, the son and the holy ghose'? Did any Prophet ever utter the words "O Israelities, why don't worship the trinity?" or something to that effect?

You are trying to put restrictions on God and interfere with His means of revelation. The Trinity exists independent of praying people. Non-Muslims never pray in the name of Allah. In the light of this fact, you should conclude that Allah does not exist.  Grin

Read the first chapter of the Bible. In the beginning God created everything through His Word, and His Spirit moved upon the waters to bless them. Even there you see the Triune God, whom you reject because you follow the false moon god manipulated by Mohammad.

Your salvation may lay in your answer for those questions.

Pride will not be an excuse when you will face your Creator.

My salvation lays in the Triune God rather than in answers to your fallacious questions.  Wink
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« Reply #158 on: July 13, 2010, 10:09:30 AM »

If you read the Torah, there you can see references to YHWH, His creative Word (intellect), and His Spirit (life). This is the same as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christian Trinitarian doctrine is not independent of the true God YHWH of the Old Testament. We cannot say the same about your moon god though.

So each of the Almighty's attribute is a person? Then you must not worship the Trinity, you must worst the Hunderidity, as you would make a person for God's knowledge, a person for God's sight, a person for God's mercy et cetera.

Quote
The Trinity exists independent of praying people.

So what you're saying that the Prophets, who received direct inspiration from God, were not able to figure out God's nature, unlike you.

Quote
Non-Muslims never pray in the name of Allah. In the light of this fact, you should conclude that Allah does not exist.  Grin

You need to have a word with some Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews.

Quote
My salvation lays in the Triune

Pride can be the cause of your downfall, be aware!


Also, since you keep bringing up this lunar god thing, I must tell you that if you left God's Religion because you  thought Muslims worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or deity whose authority is exclusive to the moon, then you were hugely misguided.
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« Reply #159 on: July 13, 2010, 10:11:41 AM »

Quote
Read the first chapter of the Bible. In the beginning God created everything through His Word, and His Spirit moved upon the waters to bless them. Even there you see the Triune God, whom you reject because you follow the false moon god manipulated by Mohammad.

Indeed, Theophilus. Another manifestation of the Holy Trinity from the Old Testament is the visitation of the three strangers to Abraham and Sarah at the Oak of Mamre in chapter 18 of Genesis. Three persons, yet one Lord and God.
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« Reply #160 on: July 13, 2010, 10:13:03 AM »

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« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2010, 10:13:17 AM »


So what you're saying that the Prophets, who received direct inspiration from God, were not able to figure out God's nature, unlike you.

No. What is being said, is that that full doctrine of the Trinity was not revealed to the prophets. Why is that a difficulty?
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« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2010, 10:25:00 AM »


So each of the Almighty's attribute is a person? Then you must not worship the Trinity, you must worst the Hunderidity, as you would make a person for God's knowledge, a person for God's sight, a person for God's mercy et cetera.

I wonder how many times I shall have to tell you that I am sick of straw man arguments.  Roll Eyes

I never said that the Almighty's EACH and EVERY attribute is a person. Only His essence, His intellect/wisdom, and His Spirit are persons, being essential to His being.

So what you're saying that the Prophets, who received direct inspiration from God, were not able to figure out God's nature, unlike you.

Another straw man argument.

Do you believe that prophets would be able to figure out God's nature through direct revelation even if God did not want it? God chooses when and how to reveal Himself to mankind. You really have some weird ideas about God.

You need to have a word with some Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews.

You did not understand my point. Let me give another example: I know many atheists who do not believe Allah. According to your odd interpretation, Allah does not exist because of the lack of belief or because of people who do not pray. This is ridiculous.

Pride can be the cause of your downfall, be aware!

Pride became the cause of your Mohammad's downfall. Thanks for reminding though.

Also, since you keep bringing up this lunar god thing, I must tell you that if you left God's Religion because you  thought Muslims worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or deity whose authority is exclusive to the moon, then you were hugely misguided.

For me the only true God is YHWH, not Allah or Zeus or Krishna.

I left Mohammad's ideology because I saw what a crafty and evil person he was. He deceived and misled many souls. He will get his payback for sure.

You can read my conversion testimony here: http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/05/12/my-conversion-from-islam-to-orthodoxy-by-masud-masihiyyen/#axzz0tZXtAmsF


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« Reply #163 on: July 13, 2010, 10:35:09 AM »


Please be very careful here.  Up 'til now, you've merely been boasting of the superiority of your religion, but now you're starting to sound as if you're proselytizing us.  I'm not sure you realize how much you risk by coming to this Orthodox Christian discussion community to try to convert us to Islam.  We do have rules against such proselytizing.

I apologize if it sounded like that, I'm a guest among you and I'm willing to act as such, but the fact of the matter is that you have directed a question towards me.

Also, I've read the rules and none of them concerns proselytizing or expressing non Orthodox Christian view.


Please see our Board Policies thread titled     
Read Me! Compiled Board policies, information points, etc. here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.0.html for the Forum rules against proselytizing.

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Friends,

From now on, banners in signatures to other forums are not allowed although you may link to another forum or website in your signature, without comment.

From now on, you may not advertise your other web forum on our forum.  Links to threads on other forums are allowed, however, if they are pertinent to discussions here.

Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is no longer allowed.  I don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message.

You may not private message others to solicit them to join your forum, however.  We have the ability to read other people's private messages (this is disclosed in the member agreement you sign when joining the forum) and we don't do that usually, but we can, and we will, if we think you are trying to lure people away from our site.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.  From a human standpoint I would be lying if I said that some people in particular did not precipitate this action BUT at the same time there have been others over the past 1.5 years who have done this as well, so it is not just based on a knee-jerk reaction.

Stay tuned for an even more indepth statement on proselytism to be issued soon by all of us Admins.

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And from reply#5 in that thread:


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People who do not fit this broad, academic definition of Orthodox, (as described in the preceding paragraph of the thread) such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, non-Christians, and others, are permitted to post here and to offer positive contributions to the site and corrections when their faith traditions are misrepresented.  They are not, however, permitted to attempt to bring people to other faiths.

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 10:36:23 AM by NorthernPines » Logged
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« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2010, 10:35:23 AM »


So what you're saying that the Prophets, who received direct inspiration from God, were not able to figure out God's nature, unlike you.

No. What is being said, is that that full doctrine of the Trinity was not revealed to the prophets. Why is that a difficulty?


Why is that, may I ask, domine meam?
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« Reply #165 on: July 13, 2010, 10:36:44 AM »


Please be very careful here.  Up 'til now, you've merely been boasting of the superiority of your religion, but now you're starting to sound as if you're proselytizing us.  I'm not sure you realize how much you risk by coming to this Orthodox Christian discussion community to try to convert us to Islam.  We do have rules against such proselytizing.

I apologize if it sounded like that, I'm a guest among you and I'm willing to act as such, but the fact of the matter is that you have directed a question towards me.

Also, I've read the rules and none of them concerns proselytizing or expressing non Orthodox Christian view.


Please see our Board Policies thread titled     
Read Me! Compiled Board policies, information points, etc. here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.0.html

Quote
Quote from: Anastasios on November 24, 2003, 05:29:37 PM
Friends,

From now on, banners in signatures to other forums are not allowed although you may link to another forum or website in your signature, without comment.

From now on, you may not advertise your other web forum on our forum.  Links to threads on other forums are allowed, however, if they are pertinent to discussions here.

Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is no longer allowed.  I don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message.

You may not private message others to solicit them to join your forum, however.  We have the ability to read other people's private messages (this is disclosed in the member agreement you sign when joining the forum) and we don't do that usually, but we can, and we will, if we think you are trying to lure people away from our site.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.  From a human standpoint I would be lying if I said that some people in particular did not precipitate this action BUT at the same time there have been others over the past 1.5 years who have done this as well, so it is not just based on a knee-jerk reaction.

Stay tuned for an even more indepth statement on proselytism to be issued soon by all of us Admins.

anastasios
ADMIN

And from reply#5 in that thread:


Quote
People who do not fit this broad, academic definition of Orthodox, (as described in the preceding paragraph of the thread) such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, non-Christians, and others, are permitted to post here and to offer positive contributions to the site and corrections when their faith traditions are misrepresented.  They are not, however, permitted to attempt to bring people to other faiths.

Fr Anastasios
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Northern Pines, Religious Topics Forum Moderator





Can I answer questions about my Religion if asked?
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« Reply #166 on: July 13, 2010, 10:43:59 AM »


Beautiful story.
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« Reply #167 on: July 13, 2010, 10:44:31 AM »


I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?



Since you are proclaiming what 'official' Orthodox beliefs and opinions are (there are no 'official' "opinions" that makes no sense)
I am requesting, as an official request in compliance with the Forum Rules, that you give us some source for your information? Considering that you're claiming this is an official position of the Orthodox Church, the source, I feel, must be a source that the majority of Orthodox would consider authoritative, and not just an opinion of a single priest, Bishop, or Churchmen. Thank you in advance for the source of your information . . . .

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« Reply #168 on: July 13, 2010, 10:45:40 AM »


Can I answer questions about my Religion if asked?



Of course you may!

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« Reply #169 on: July 13, 2010, 10:47:30 AM »

I wonder how many times I shall have to tell you that I am sick of straw man arguments.  Roll Eyes

I never said that the Almighty's EACH and EVERY attribute is a person. Only His essence, His intellect/wisdom, and His Spirit are persons, being essential to His being.

Why did you pick just those three?

Quote
Another straw man argument.

Do you believe that prophets would be able to figure out God's nature through direct revelation even if God did not want it? God chooses when and how to reveal Himself to mankind. You really have some weird ideas about God.

So you're saying that God did not reveal the trinity to his Prophets and that's the reason why didn't pray in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost? But you said otherwise in the paragraph above when you talked about the existence of the trinitarian doctrine in the OT.

You did not understand my point. Let me give another example: I know many atheists who do not believe Allah. According to your odd interpretation, Allah does not exist because of the lack of belief or because of people who do not pray. This is ridiculous.

We're not talking about random people, we are the talking about the Prophets, the intermediaries between us and out Creator. They are more worthy to know such crucial things as the very nature of God than the fathers of trinitarian Churches.

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« Reply #170 on: July 13, 2010, 10:49:13 AM »


I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?



Since you are proclaiming what 'official' Orthodox beliefs and opinions are (there are no 'official' "opinions" that makes no sense)
I am requesting, as an official request in compliance with the Forum Rules, that you give us some source for your information? Considering that you're claiming this is an official position of the Orthodox Church, the source, I feel, must be a source that the majority of Orthodox would consider authoritative, and not just an opinion of a single priest, Bishop, or Churchmen. Thank you in advance for the source of your information . . . .

Northern Pines, Religious Topics Forum Moderator


I meant it's NOT the official opinion. Please change it if you can. 
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« Reply #171 on: July 13, 2010, 10:58:55 AM »


I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?

You're "quite sure", and you are also "quite wrong!" Smiley

There is no "official opinion" within Orthodoxy on what Islam is and is not. The Orthodox Church has never had any Councils, or Synods, or any Declarations or even anything in any Catechism written about Islam, or any other religion for that matter. The Church has "official" beliefs about what it teaches, not about what other faiths teach.

What individual Orthodox Christians hold as an opinion about Islam might be different, but there is no official teaching or official belief about Islam. What opinion I hold might be different than another person, and so and so forth, but none of these opinions are official. Frankly I've never heard anyone say they believe Muslims worship the moon, or a "deity that lives on the moon"....NOTHING lives on the moon, it is a lifeless dead rock circling the earth. And if anyone told me they believed Muslims worshipped a being on the moon, I'd take them to be some sort of crackpot. But then I don't believe in things like the "evil eye" nor do I think black cats are "bad luck" so maybe I'm just too modern in my worldview. Cheesy

NP

PS: feel free to not answer now that you've answered my official request!


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« Reply #172 on: July 13, 2010, 11:01:20 AM »


I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?



Since you are proclaiming what 'official' Orthodox beliefs and opinions are (there are no 'official' "opinions" that makes no sense)
I am requesting, as an official request in compliance with the Forum Rules, that you give us some source for your information? Considering that you're claiming this is an official position of the Orthodox Church, the source, I feel, must be a source that the majority of Orthodox would consider authoritative, and not just an opinion of a single priest, Bishop, or Churchmen. Thank you in advance for the source of your information . . . .

Northern Pines, Religious Topics Forum Moderator


I meant it's NOT the official opinion. Please change it if you can. 



Well I can change it, but I won't because everything will just be too confusing. Knowing now that it was merely a typo, I retract my request for source material.

Thank you for your clarification . . . .

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« Reply #173 on: July 13, 2010, 11:04:01 AM »



Why did you pick just those three?


You assume that they were picked. But they were not. It's just God's nature.

Do you believe that prophets would be able to figure out God's nature through direct revelation even if God did not want it? God chooses when and how to reveal Himself to mankind. You really have some weird ideas about God.
No you have weird ideas about God if you think that God's nature can be "figured out". If God is truely infinite, then there is no way that we can know his essence/nature through reason. What we know about God is what he chooses to reveal to us. If he only chooses to reaveal the fullness of the doctrine of the trinity to us at a certain time, who are we to argue with him?
So you're saying that God did not reveal the trinity to his Prophets and that's the reason why didn't pray in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost? But you said otherwise in the paragraph above when you talked about the existence of the trinitarian doctrine in the OT.
It's one thing to say that there are concepts in the Old Testament for the basis of the Trinity, and another to say that God provided a full and clear revelation of the Tinity in the Old Testament.
We're not talking about random people, we are the talking about the Prophets, the intermediaries between us and out Creator. They are more worthy to know such crucial things as the very nature of God than the fathers of trinitarian Churches.
Who are you to determine who is worthy of the revelation of the Trinity?
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« Reply #174 on: July 13, 2010, 11:46:58 AM »

By the way, Salpy, I apologize for saying that I don't believe you like that. It's not that I think you're lying, it's just stories tend to be told different then how they happened, especially if the people telling the story had an interest in changing them a bit, as in smearing a people that they despise.

The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?

Starting in the year 1915, the Ottomans began a systematic slaughter of their Armenian population.  Their method, as they went from village to village, was to kill the men first and then take the women and children on a "death march" into the Syrian desert.  It was not uncommon for the soldiers, as they were about to kill their victims, to ask the people they were about to kill to convert to Islam.  They were told they could save their lives by converting.  Very few Armenians converted.

Among the victims of this Genocide were relatives of my mother.  The uncle I mentioned was the father of my mom's cousin Zabel, and she was the one who related the story.  Before she died, another cousin of mine videotaped her telling the story.  After her death I saw the videotape.  She was not lying.  I could tell it was painful for her to relate the story, and at one point she even imitated the motion that her father's head made as his throat was slit.  I can't imagine how painful it must have been for her to carry that image in her mind all her life.  

If you want to call Cousin Zabel a liar, I can't stop you.  I know her story is true and that is enough.
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« Reply #175 on: July 13, 2010, 11:49:01 AM »

By the way, Salpy, I apologize for saying that I don't believe you like that. It's not that I think you're lying, it's just stories tend to be told different then how they happened, especially if the people telling the story had an interest in changing them a bit, as in smearing a people that they despise.

The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?

Starting in the year 1915, the Ottomans began a systematic slaughter of their Armenian population.  Their method, as they went from village to village, was to kill the men first and then take the women and children on a "death march" into the Syrian desert.  It was not uncommon for the soldiers, as they were about to kill their victims, to ask the people they were about to kill to convert to Islam.  They were told they could save their lives by converting.  Very few Armenians converted.

Among the victims of this Genocide were relatives of my mother.  The uncle I mentioned was the father of my mom's cousin Zabel, and she was the one who related the story.  Before she died, another cousin of mine videotaped her telling the story.  After her death I saw the videotape.  She was not lying.  I could tell it was painful for her to relate the story, and at one point she even imitated the motion that her father's head made as his throat was slit.  I can't imagine how painful it must have been for her to carry that image in her mind all her life.  

If you want to call Cousin Zabel a liar, I can't stop you.  I know her story is true and that is enough.

May all these martyrs for the Faith, keep us in prayer through constant intercession. How terribly sad to see such cruelty but also, how incredibly beautiful to see people so devoted to their faith in Christ that not even the threat of death could pull them away from the arms of our Savior.
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« Reply #176 on: July 13, 2010, 11:50:47 AM »

If he only chooses to reaveal the fullness of the doctrine of the trinity to us at a certain time, who are we to argue with him?

The discussion is whether or not he revealed such thing.

Quote
It's one thing to say that there are concepts in the Old Testament for the basis of the Trinity, and another to say that God provided a full and clear revelation of the Tinity in the Old Testament.

So what do you think of the fact that Jews reject the trinity and consider Christians, unlike Muslims, to be heathens. Are they correct in their understanding of the Tanakh?

By the way: Omnia prophitae domini noster sunt. How bad did I butcher the language?
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« Reply #177 on: July 13, 2010, 11:59:41 AM »

The discussion is whether or not he revealed such thing.
And all you are doing throughout your posts is assuming that no such thing happened.

So what do you think of the fact that Jews reject the trinity and consider Christians, unlike Muslims, to be heathens. Are they correct in their understanding of the Tanakh?
You know that as a Christian I believe that the Jews were incorrect in their rejection of the Divinity of Christ. Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?
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« Reply #178 on: July 13, 2010, 12:36:55 PM »

If he only chooses to reaveal the fullness of the doctrine of the trinity to us at a certain time, who are we to argue with him?

The discussion is whether or not he revealed such thing.

Quote
It's one thing to say that there are concepts in the Old Testament for the basis of the Trinity, and another to say that God provided a full and clear revelation of the Tinity in the Old Testament.

So what do you think of the fact that Jews reject the trinity and consider Christians, unlike Muslims, to be heathens. Are they correct in their understanding of the Tanakh?
Of course not.  As St. Paul writes
II Corinthians 3:14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

That veil in the Temple was torn in two, as the Gospels attest, and even the Talmud admits that the doors of the Temple opened of their own accord every night for around 40 years before the Temple's destruction i.e. 30 A.D. (when the real Temple was crucified and rose).
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« Reply #179 on: July 13, 2010, 12:46:10 PM »

Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
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