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Author Topic: Jesus descends  (Read 13342 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mekki
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« on: July 10, 2010, 03:57:18 AM »

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats. He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.

Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.
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ytterbiumanalyst
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2010, 08:14:45 AM »

First of all, welcome to the forum. I don't remember us having a Muslim member on this board before, though we do welcome members of other faiths (we have at least one Jew and several atheists on the board currently, as well as numerous Protestants and Catholics). Your perspective can certainly help us to understand our faith better.

However, I feel I must say I do not recognize this Jesus of whom you write. The Jesus I know is not confused by cultural expressions such as dress and hat styles (nor have I ever seen a man wearing a hat into the Church), or the co-mingling of people of different genders. He also does not guess at the nature of women, for He made all men and women, and He knows us more intimately than we know ourselves.

Loud music and dancing are not part of our worship, but they are part of our celebrations. Again, Jesus does not wonder at cultural expressions such as rock 'n' roll music. We Orthodox can and do gather together at someone's house to socialize and have fun, and sometimes there is loud music and dancing. This practice is neither confusing nor offensive to God. And, like I said, our worship is nothing close to what you have described.

So I think that you unfairly and inaccurately characterise the Orthodox Christian faith. I know personally one member of this board who is a former Muslim; I'm sure he would be happy to talk with you about his experience.
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2010, 09:32:44 AM »

First of all, welcome to the forum. I don't remember us having a Muslim member on this board before, though we do welcome members of other faiths (we have at least one Jew and several atheists on the board currently, as well as numerous Protestants and Catholics). Your perspective can certainly help us to understand our faith better.

Thank you, I actually lurk here once in a while, and I'm familiar with the active members.

Quote
However, I feel I must say I do not recognize this Jesus of whom you write. The Jesus I know is not confused by cultural expressions such as dress and hat styles (nor have I ever seen a man wearing a hat into the Church), or the co-mingling of people of different genders. He also does not guess at the nature of women, for He made all men and women, and He knows us more intimately than we know ourselves.


Loud music and dancing are not part of our worship, but they are part of our celebrations. Again, Jesus does not wonder at cultural expressions such as rock 'n' roll music. We Orthodox can and do gather together at someone's house to socialize and have fun, and sometimes there is loud music and dancing. This practice is neither confusing nor offensive to God. And, like I said, our worship is nothing close to what you have described.

I hope you've noticed how I said a reverend, not a priest, so it's quite obvious for which group I'm refering to. And  I was refering to how Christian practises and norms have deviated from what would be seen as acceptable among the Israelites or even early gentile Christian societies. And Protestantism is not alone in that.

Also, I hope I'm not insulting anyone when I say that a part of how Orthodoxy kept a relative puristy is due to Islam, not in-spite of it as many might belive. Who would've though Catholocism would degenrate to its current state 9 centuries a go, but look at it.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 09:43:09 AM by Mekki » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2010, 10:50:26 AM »

Welcome to the Forum, Mekki. Smiley

I must agree with Ytterbiumanalyst though that the "Jesus" in your post is not the One that I recognize either.  Why would clothing and cultural norms of one particular area two thousand years ago necessarily apply throughout all time and all over the planet please?  Even during His time on Earth there were human beings (all created by God) in other places who had different practices and customs. 

I'm also curious about the point of "loud music".  An organ can certainly have some volume, but that doesn't mean that the music is somehow irreverent or not dedicated to the Glory of God or a hymn of worship.  Also there are priests in Churches other than the EO/OO/RC.  I am Anglican and we have priests.

May I ask if you have attended any Christian services that you are drawing your examples from real life? 

Ebor
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2010, 10:58:02 AM »

First of all, welcome to the forum. I don't remember us having a Muslim member on this board before,

I don't recall if Gabriel was still Muslim when he first came here. It's been a while.  Smiley

Quote

So I think that you unfairly and inaccurately characterise the Orthodox Christian faith. I know personally one member of this board who is a former Muslim; I'm sure he would be happy to talk with you about his experience.

I think that the OP unfairly and inaccurately characterizes Christianity in general and also has "Protestantism" as a monolithic bloc.

Ebor
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2010, 11:26:30 AM »

Welcome to the Forum, Mekki. Smiley

Thank you

Quote
I must agree with Ytterbiumanalyst though that the "Jesus" in your post is not the One that I recognize either.  Why would clothing and cultural norms of one particular area two thousand years ago necessarily apply throughout all time and all over the planet please?  Even during His time on Earth there were human beings (all created by God) in other places who had different practices and customs.
 

A poeple's customs and norms should be limited by whichever wordl-view they adhere to. It's such an indication of the state of Christianity today that it's more than acceptable for women to not wear headscarfs in the overwhelming majority of Chruches, even though it is regarded as an obligation by uncomprmizing Orthodox and Catholics as it is stated quite frankly in the Bible.

I've read a very interesting thread about hair covering, either here or in another Christian Orthodox forum, I would be very appreciative if someone could link to it (if it's here that is).

Quote
I'm also curious about the point of "loud music".  An organ can certainly have some volume, but that doesn't mean that the music is somehow irreverent or not dedicated to the Glory of God or a hymn of worship.  Also there are priests in Churches other than the EO/OO/RC.  I am Anglican and we have priests.

I wasn't talking about the volume, I was talking about the composition. There's a large difference between medieval Catholic ecclesiastical music and what you'd hear in a Baptist Chruch.

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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2010, 11:45:32 AM »

Also, I hope I'm not insulting anyone when I say that a part of how Orthodoxy kept a relative puristy is due to Islam, not in-spite of it as many might belive. Who would've though Catholocism would degenrate to its current state 9 centuries a go, but look at it.

Hate to say it, but you're probably right.  Our greatest Saints show up when we're persecuted.  The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church.  But the Latins gave us some good persecutin' too.  Islam can't take all the credit.  And don't forget the Communists!

As to the OP, I think if our Lord were to come to some modern McChurches he would probably be appalled at the commerce being done in his name.  Likewise, if the Prophet came back, he would be appalled at 13 year old girls getting gang raped, informing the police, then being stoned for adultery. 
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2010, 12:06:05 PM »

A
Quote
poeple's customs and norms should be limited by whichever wordl-view they adhere to. It's such an indication of the state of Christianity today that it's more than acceptable for women to not wear headscarfs in the overwhelming majority of Chruches, even though it is regarded as an obligation by uncomprmizing Orthodox and Catholics as it is stated quite frankly in the Bible.

I've read a very interesting thread about hair covering, either here or in another Christian Orthodox forum, I would be very appreciative if someone could link to it (if it's here that is
).

Are you familiar with the Mennonites and Amish? They are very sincere Christians, and within the more conservative elements, all women wear headcoverings all the time, out of respect for the biblical command to do so found in 1 Corinthians 11. They also believe in modest dress for both sexes; women wear long, modest dresses.

They also practise non-resistance, which means they are peace-loving people who are opposed to war and killing people. I think we could learn from their example.
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2010, 01:05:41 PM »

Hate to say it, but you're probably right.  Our greatest Saints show up when we're persecuted.  The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church.  But the Latins gave us some good persecutin' too.  Islam can't take all the credit.  And don't forget the Communists!

That's not quite what I was talking about. If what you said ws true, Catholicism would be the purest religion on Earth as it was the maint target of the "Enlightenment" which thought to annihilate anything Traditional, and anything of supra-human nature. And where is "turning the other cheek" as most Christians seem to interpret it, you're not supposed to whine even if you were killed, but to call paying Jizya a prosecution is an exaseration to say the least.

Quote
As to the OP, I think if our Lord were to come to some modern McChurches he would probably be appalled at the commerce being done in his name.  Likewise, if the Prophet came back, he would be appalled at 13 year old girls getting gang raped, informing the police, then being stoned for adultery. 

Even if there multiple cases like what you described, it would almost impossible to come across it due to the odds. But the fact is, it's a single case that happened in Somalia. And there's no ambiguation about the Islamic stance on the subject, the girls goes and the rapists gets punished.

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “Stone him to death.” (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2010, 01:10:21 PM »

They also practise non-resistance, which means they are peace-loving people who are opposed to war and killing people. I think we could learn from their example.

Moses and David waged wars and killed people, what do you think of them? Why did central Christian figures have swords on them and used them, like George? The only thing that saved Christianity from disappearence is that most, if not all, of the Christian who were in power didn't hold this interpretation of things.
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2010, 01:17:52 PM »

They also practise non-resistance, which means they are peace-loving people who are opposed to war and killing people. I think we could learn from their example.

Moses and David waged wars and killed people, what do you think of them? Why did central Christian figures have swords on them and used them, like George? The only thing that saved Christianity from disappearence is that most, if not all, of the Christian who were in power didn't hold this interpretation of things.

Christ teaches us a new way under the New Covenant. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? From a worldly perspective, peacefulness and loving our enemies may be incomprehensible, but for some Christians, this is the only way. Yes, it is radical, it is difficult, but the Christian life is never easy.
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2010, 01:30:34 PM »

Christ teaches us a new way under the New Covenant. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? From a worldly perspective, peacefulness and loving our enemies may be incomprehensible, but for some Christians, this is the only way. Yes, it is radical, it is difficult, but the Christian life is never easy.

Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism. When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation. And I quite honestly think that before People start claiming pacifism they should actively seek the abolishment of their states' armies first.

Furthermore. Anything that was said at the mountain was thought by all Prophets.
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2010, 01:38:27 PM »

(...) he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well.

Well, maybe he shouldn't have started out at St. Gregory of Nyssa.
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2010, 03:12:55 PM »


First, welcome to the forum!  Cheesy


Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism.


Really? Perhaps you're defining "Pacifism" in a different way than others are then. That wouldn't be that strange actually because I've discussed this with people before, and what they mean by Pacifism is often times very different than what I mean by it. (see below)

Anyways, just from a purely historical POV, it's obviously not hard to interpret it that way at all. What is hard, is for most people, caught up in the "ways of the world" and the logic and reason of our human minds to see how this could actually "work" in the "real world". It's very human to see things like non-violence as being a path that "just won't work in our real world!" And yet by assuming it doesn't work, maybe we are not trusting God. After all God's ways are not our ways. Just because it doesn't "make sense" to our fallible human minds, doesn't mean a hill of beans.

Quote
When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation.

It's impossible to you perhaps, but not to everyone. Again, Mennonites and the Amish live by the law of Pacifism in an absolute sense. So do followers of Jainism And so have a number of Christian saints, both East and West. I know there have been Jewish holy men, (as well as most Buddhists, many Hindus and I'm sure some Muslims were were also pacifists. Though as for Muslim holy men, (do you call them saints?) I can't say definitively, since I must plead ignorance, though I believe I've heard of some. So it's not "impossible" at all to interpret in light of the Prophetic tradition of Israel. There certainly are alternative interpretations, and people can discuss these differences. They can dialogue, and try and see where the other person is coming from. It might very well be the wrong interpretation.  But it is a valid one.




Quote
And I quite honestly think that before People start claiming pacifism they should actively seek the abolishment of their states' armies first.

That's putting the cart before the horse don't ya think? Wink

Anyways I don't really intend to really discuss this issue myself, only suggesting that it is quite possible to see a strand of non-violence throughout all the Prophets of Old. (by this I mean physical violence...there of course remains an inner struggle and often violent conflict we all must deal with within ourselves. The struggle and war within each of us to become less egocentric, to become more loving, and to see all as our brothers and sisters. That is not what most people mean by "Pacifism" they mean non-physical violence, and hopefully everyone can agree to the term of "Pacifism" to mean the refusal to inflict physical violence upon another person, in a scholarly respectful manner, and not just as a pejorative word meaning "wimp" or other such nonsense. Because if anyone thinks Pacifism is "wimpy" all I suggest if for that person to go and try it out, and see how tough a person really is.





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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2010, 03:30:00 PM »

أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم
أب, إبنة, وكحول مقدّسة

I take refuge from the accursed Satan, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amin.

Salaam and Welcome to the forum, Mekki.  Smiley

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats.
I have seen many, many Muslima's (Muslim women) wearing 'strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair'.  I have witnessed them leave the masajid (mosques) only to go shopping at the malls to buy miniskirts and make-up.  Did I mention that as soon as they were out of sight from the men, they quickly threw off their hijabs and started smoking?  My friend, I do not mention these things to disparage Islam, but to show that we are all sinners.

He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.
I once visited a masjid where the men and women were dancing and singing together.  The song they were singing went like this;
"Hasbi rabbi jall 'allah, mafi qalbi ghair 'ullah! Noori Muhammad sall 'allah!"  Do you dance and sing songs like this at your mosque?

  

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.
I wonder if this is a masjid you're talking about now?  Smiley  My friend, I have visited many mosques where the people were 'back-biting' and talking of business.  Should I judge these people based on that?
 
Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.
Who is this Jesus of which you speak?  The Jesus I know prayed like this;


Luke 11:2-4

 2 "And he (Jesus the Christ) said unto them, 'When ye pray, say, "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.  Give us day by day our daily bread.  And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.'"

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.
Again, friend, this Jesus is a stranger.  The Jesus I do know can be found in the New Testament and understood here-

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."


Here, our Lord and Savior, reveals Who He is- The Second Person in the Holy Trinity

« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 03:38:26 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2010, 03:51:10 PM »


First, welcome to the forum!  Cheesy


Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism.


Really? Perhaps you're defining "Pacifism" in a different way than others are then. That wouldn't be that strange actually because I've discussed this with people before, and what they mean by Pacifism is often times very different than what I mean by it. (see below)

Anyways, just from a purely historical POV, it's obviously not hard to interpret it that way at all. What is hard, is for most people, caught up in the "ways of the world" and the logic and reason of our human minds to see how this could actually "work" in the "real world". It's very human to see things like non-violence as being a path that "just won't work in our real world!" And yet by assuming it doesn't work, maybe we are not trusting God. After all God's ways are not our ways. Just because it doesn't "make sense" to our fallible human minds, doesn't mean a hill of beans.

Quote
When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation.

It's impossible to you perhaps, but not to everyone. Again, Mennonites and the Amish live by the law of Pacifism in an absolute sense. So do followers of Jainism And so have a number of Christian saints, both East and West. I know there have been Jewish holy men, (as well as most Buddhists, many Hindus and I'm sure some Muslims were were also pacifists. Though as for Muslim holy men, (do you call them saints?) I can't say definitively, since I must plead ignorance, though I believe I've heard of some. So it's not "impossible" at all to interpret in light of the Prophetic tradition of Israel. There certainly are alternative interpretations, and people can discuss these differences. They can dialogue, and try and see where the other person is coming from. It might very well be the wrong interpretation.  But it is a valid one.




Quote
And I quite honestly think that before People start claiming pacifism they should actively seek the abolishment of their states' armies first.

That's putting the cart before the horse don't ya think? Wink

Anyways I don't really intend to really discuss this issue myself, only suggesting that it is quite possible to see a strand of non-violence throughout all the Prophets of Old. (by this I mean physical violence...there of course remains an inner struggle and often violent conflict we all must deal with within ourselves. The struggle and war within each of us to become less egocentric, to become more loving, and to see all as our brothers and sisters. That is not what most people mean by "Pacifism" they mean non-physical violence, and hopefully everyone can agree to the term of "Pacifism" to mean the refusal to inflict physical violence upon another person, in a scholarly respectful manner, and not just as a pejorative word meaning "wimp" or other such nonsense. Because if anyone thinks Pacifism is "wimpy" all I suggest if for that person to go and try it out, and see how tough a person really is.

Well, I don't think it would be appropriate to discussion thus fuurther as subject was well covered in more than one thread. But the thing that we might agree on, that whether or not pacifism, as known today, is a Christian doctrine, one can not claim that non-pacifism is ungodly as he would be a blasphemy against the Prophets.

Also, a final note would be on how far can one take this pacifism idea, if one were to say that it's inherently evil to make any act of violence against physical beings why would it be acceptable to not take a pacfist stance against Satan and one's profane, carnal desires, as in the internal violence you spoke of which we call the greatest Jihad, a basic concept in Sufi thought. I mean Where and why is the line drawn?
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2010, 04:07:56 PM »

أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم
أب, إبنة, وكحول مقدّسة

I take refuge from the accursed Satan, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amin.

Salaam and Welcome to the forum, Mekki.  Smiley

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats.
I have seen many, many Muslima's (Muslim women) wearing 'strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair'.  I have witnessed them leave the masajid (mosques) only to go shopping at the malls to buy miniskirts and make-up.  Did I mention that as soon as they were out of sight from the men, they quickly threw off their hijabs and started smoking?  My friend, I do not mention these things to disparage Islam, but to show that we are all sinners.

He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.
I once visited a masjid where the men and women were dancing and singing together.  The song they were singing went like this;
"Hasbi rabbi jall 'allah, mafi qalbi ghair 'ullah! Noori Muhammad sall 'allah!"  Do you dance and sing songs like this at your mosque?

  

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.
I wonder if this is a masjid you're talking about now?  Smiley  My friend, I have visited many mosques where the people were 'back-biting' and talking of business.  Should I judge these people based on that?

I'm just describing two very possible encounters with Christianity and Islam, which serve as an indication of the current state of affairs for the two religion, drawing conclusions is up to you.

Regardless of individual cases, Muslims tend to be vry pious when in mosques, and a lot of them are also pious outside it alhamdulillah. Sometimes I go early to the night prayer in the nearby mosque (which is the biggest in the neighberhood, but there's a mosque practically in every block some of them are quite large) before the adhan, and I set there at the back of the mosque, and I must say, it's a heart thrilling scene to see people just pouring in for a daily prayer in humility and with no other puropose but worship their Creator Almighty.

Also, I don't think you and I would disagree that Muslims tend to adhere to their religion more strictly then Christian, even the Orthodox, and they tend to be, shall I say, more Christian, if we were to disregard theological matters.

Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.
Who is this Jesus of which you speak?  The Jesus I know prayed like this;


Luke 11:2-4

 2 "And he (Jesus the Christ) said unto them, 'When ye pray, say, "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.  Give us day by day our daily bread.  And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.'"

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.
Again, friend, this Jesus is a stranger.  The Jesus I do know can be found in the New Testament and understood here-

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

There's nothing in the Lord's prayer that a Muslim would disagree to. We do actually say it in meaning.

I think it would be interesting for everyone to look at this (Jewish prayer):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg




email tags in the above youtube link changed to url tags so that the redirect would be to the actual youtube video and not to an email application
-PtA
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2010, 07:12:02 PM »

A poeple's customs and norms should be limited by whichever wordl-view they adhere to.

Why?  And what do you mean by "world-view" please? Can "world-views" change over time or in different situations or do you think that they cannot or should not change?

Quote
It's such an indication of the state of Christianity today that it's more than acceptable for women to not wear headscarfs in the overwhelming majority of Chruches, even though it is regarded as an obligation by uncomprmizing Orthodox and Catholics as it is stated quite frankly in the Bible.

There are cultures on this planet where it is not the custom for women to cover their hair.  Japan is one example where hats might be worn while outside working or traveling but not in many other situations; a women is not counted as "immodest" there if her hair is visible or in a number of other parts of the world. 

Also, why just scarves?  What is wrong with some other headgear such as any of a multiple variety of hats?  That was the custom and norm in many, many places that people wore hats or hoods or mantles or other forms of head gear.  It was normal to the people for often very practical reasons such as warmth, protection from the elements and to keep the hair clean in times when bathing and hair-washing was not as easy as it is nowadays.

Quote
I wasn't talking about the volume, I was talking about the composition. There's a large difference between medieval Catholic ecclesiastical music and what you'd hear in a Baptist Chruch.

Well, you wrote "loud music", but are you actually referring to "modern" or "contemporary" music?  Have you been in many Baptist churches to hear what kinds of music they may be using in their worship?  Why should music be frozen in time and place as well? 

Ebor
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2010, 08:03:37 PM »

That's not quite what I was talking about. If what you said ws true, Catholicism would be the purest religion on Earth as it was the maint target of the "Enlightenment" which thought to annihilate anything Traditional, and anything of supra-human nature.

The Enlightenment led to many things including advances in learning, the concept of human rights, and science.  If it was "targeting" the RC or religion in general, it hasn't succeeded.

Quote
And where is "turning the other cheek" as most Christians seem to interpret it, you're not supposed to whine even if you were killed, but to call paying Jizya a prosecution is an exaseration to say the least.

It more more that just paying a tax and it was one that was not paid by muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya  
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/xstnc-5.html#9

How about the taking of Christian boys to be Janissaries by the Ottomans?  
http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/janissary.htm

Enslavement of women as concubines and servants
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/harem.htm

Raiding such places as the Irish town of Baltimore in 1631 by Barbary Pirates in which 154 people where taken and only 2 ever returned according to the records.
http://www.from-ireland.net/cor/hist/baltimoreraid.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml

Quote
Even if there multiple cases like what you described, it would almost impossible to come across it due to the odds. But the fact is, it's a single case that happened in Somalia. And there's no ambiguation about the Islamic stance on the subject, the girls goes and the rapists gets punished.

And would Jesus approve of the sentencing in the case in Iran at the moment of Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani who was to be stoned to death on a charge of adultery until the last day or so?
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/09/world/la-fg-iran-stoning-20100710
Or of the woman in Nigeria eight years ago who said she was raped but the court said she was guilty of adultery and should be stoned to death but was spared after an international outcry?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/muslim-woman-spared-death-by-stoning-in-nigeria-655429.html

Or would Jesus agree with honor killings of women and girls?  These are not unknown or hard to find, but are reported.

My point is not to somehow show that one side is all bad and another is all good.  But that to accuse Christians of wrong and evade things done by ones co-religionists is not showing the wider picture.

Ebor
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2010, 08:13:10 PM »

Moses and David waged wars and killed people, what do you think of them? Why did central Christian figures have swords on them and used them, like George? The only thing that saved Christianity from disappearence is that most, if not all, of the Christian who were in power didn't hold this interpretation of things.

"The only thing that saved Christianity"?  May I ask on what you base this assertion please?  Also, there are plenty of "central Christian figures" who do not have swords.  In the case of St. George he was a solder.  The history of pacifism in Christianity is complicated and not a binary all-or-nothing situation.

Quote
Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism. When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation.

How so?  If one is not to respond to an attack by striking back how is that not pacific? How would the Second Great Commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself" be interpreted then?  If one does not like to be attacked or harmed, then one should not do it to one's neighbor which is more than just the people next door. 

Would you please give some more information about how you interpret these things with your referencing the "Prophet's legacy"?  Also in this sentence you mean only Mohammad or other prophets as well?  Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2010, 08:36:01 PM »

I'm just describing two very possible encounters with Christianity and Islam, which serve as an indication of the current state of affairs for the two religion, drawing conclusions is up to you.

I'm sorry, but what you wrote was two imagined encounters that serve to indicate your ideas of them and not necessarily any reality at least in regards to the Christian scenario, imo.  Do you have experience visiting any Christian churches that you then can base your imagining upon? 

Quote
Regardless of individual cases, Muslims tend to be vry pious when in mosques,

And many Christians I know tend to be very pious when in churches. I know pious and sincere older ladies, Anglican and EO, who do not cover their hair because it is not the custom and they don't wear skirts down to the ground but they are still modest and believing.  My muslim neighbors are also very fine people outside of their mosque (since I have never had the chance to observe them at worship that is all I can truthfully write)

Quote
Also, I don't think you and I would disagree that Muslims tend to adhere to their religion more strictly then Christian, even the Orthodox, and they tend to be, shall I say, more Christian, if we were to disregard theological matters.

I'm sorry, but you are making a very big assumption about Gabriel's experiences and views.  If you have had negative experiences with Christians that is very unfortunate.  Do you know many Christians personally and may one ask what Churches they belong to? 

Ebor




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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2010, 03:02:07 AM »

Quote from: Ebor link=topic=28652.msg452105#msg452105

Why?  And what do you mean by "world-view" please? Can "world-views" change over time or in different situations or do you think that they cannot or should not change?

A world-view is an intergal and interlinked prespective from which one sees the wolrd around him and formulates theories on how different aspect of it should work, e.g. state and society.

For example, in Islam, we reject democracy because we are not blinded by the dogma which states that men are equal and that a mass of these supposed equals is capable of making sound decision beyond individualistic, profan and carnal desires.

Quote

There are cultures on this planet where it is not the custom for women to cover their hair.  Japan is one example where hats might be worn while outside working or traveling but not in many other situations; a women is not counted as "immodest" there if her hair is visible or in a number of other parts of the world.
   

There are also other cultures where it is acceptable to go around naked, should we say that that is acceptable. I'm sure they had soething like that in Ethiopia, was Christianity wrong for changing it?

Quote
Also, why just scarves?  What is wrong with some other headgear such as any of a multiple variety of hats?  That was the custom and norm in many, many places that people wore hats or hoods or mantles or other forms of head gear.  It was normal to the people for often very practical reasons such as warmth, protection from the elements and to keep the hair clean in times when bathing and hair-washing was not as easy as it is nowadays.
   

Well, scarves are not required per se, the essential is to cover the hair, but scarves seem to be the most effective way to do so. Of course, you can't pull tricks on the Law, like some 'Orthodox' Judaics women do when they wear wigs to cover their actual hair.

Quote
Well, you wrote "loud music", but are you actually referring to "modern" or "contemporary" music?  Have you been in many Baptist churches to hear what kinds of music they may be using in their worship?  Why should music be frozen in time and place as well? 

I'd rather lithurgical music to be frozen in time than to change according to what's fashionable. But some, more or less, modern music is still good. Some Baroch music is fine (e.g. Back), even some contemprary ecclesiastical music is also not bad (.e. Arvo Part). But they certainly fall short of medieval music.

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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2010, 03:46:59 AM »

Quote from: Ebor link=topic=28652.msg452113#msg452113

The Enlightenment led to many things including advances in learning, the concept of human rights, and science.  If it was "targeting" the RC or religion in general, it hasn't succeeded.

There were no advancement in education whatsoever, their was  a regression to be more precise. Everything other than physical, natural knowledge has been denied and disregarded as either unnecessary or baseless and erroneous. And the former knowledge, the physical one, has been blown out of propotion and was given a higher stature than its actually stature as purely utilitarian science.

Sure more people can read and write now than before, but how many Aristotles, Aquinas and Imam Ghazalis has the "Enlightenment" begotten, zero. All the great minds who existed after that dreadful movement, existed against it and in spite of it.

Quote
It more more that just paying a tax and it was one that was not paid by Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya  
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/xstnc-5.html#9

How about the taking of Christian boys to be Janissaries by the Ottomans?  
http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/janissary.htm

Enslavement of women as concubines and servants
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/harem.htm

Raiding such places as the Irish town of Baltimore in 1631 by Barbary Pirates in which 154 people where taken and only 2 ever returned according to the records.
http://www.from-ireland.net/cor/hist/baltimoreraid.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml

Muslims also had to pay the Zakat. But you must see things in prespective. What we're dealing with is a theolcratic state that is hosting a people which not only considers the religion of their hosts to be false, they also would take any chanse they get to destroy them (sorry, but that's true). Allow me to give you a parable of the situation back then; It's like the United States allowing groups to be hardcore communists on its soild during the fifties and the sixties, with organizations and meetings and all. The reality is, the United States didn't just disallow communist groups from existing, it has prosecuted every individual who showed any sign of communism. Let me tell you this, paying a higher tax than the local population is much, much, much more fair than you can ever imagine.

Quote
And would Jesus approve of the sentencing in the case in Iran at the moment of Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani who was to be stoned to death on a charge of adultery until the last day or so?
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/09/world/la-fg-iran-stoning-20100710

He would probably not like it because the sentence was not carried due to to heathens' pressure. After all, stoning the adulterous is a clear biblical punishment.

Quote
Or of the woman in Nigeria eight years ago who said she was raped but the court said she was guilty of adultery and should be stoned to death but was spared after an international outcry?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/muslim-woman-spared-death-by-stoning-in-nigeria-655429.html

I don't know about that specific case, but probably everyone who was sentenced to death has claimed innocence at a point or an other. Even people who are fined 10 Euros for failing to observe the road lie claim innocence even though they are 100% sure that they are guilty, they are even willing to delay the policeman for ten minutes trying to argue themselves out of the fine. Things like this just happen.

It's certainly unfortunate that there are innocent people who are killed, jailed or fined, but it's an inevitable aspect of justice.

Quote
Or would Jesus agree with honor killings of women and girls?  These are not unknown or hard to find, but are reported.

As for that, it's not as common as you think it is, and it is by no means exclusive to Muslims.

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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2010, 04:13:27 AM »

Quote from: Ebor link=topic=28652.msg452115#msg452115

"The only thing that saved Christianity"?  May I ask on what you base this assertion please?  Also, there are plenty of "central Christian figures" who do not have swords.  In the case of St. George he was a solder.  The history of pacifism in Christianity is complicated and not a binary all-or-nothing situation.

I base it on the fact that Christianity would've been destroyed have it not been employing armies and war to both protect it self and to propagate the religion.

To be a little humorous, I must say that we would've loved it if Christians were really pacifists, then there would be no more than a few communities of Christians scattered in Europe and the near East among predominantly Muslim societies. The entire population which is Christian now in America, Africa and Asia would've also been Muslim. But, alas :-)


Quote
How so?  If one is not to respond to an attack by striking back how is that not pacific? How would the Second Great Commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself" be interpreted then?  If one does not like to be attacked or harmed, then one should not do it to one's neighbor which is more than just the people next door. 

Would you please give some more information about how you interpret these things with your referencing the "Prophet's legacy"?  Also in this sentence you mean only Mohammad or other prophets as well?  Thank you in advance.

Fighing someone doesn't necessarily mean that you hate him. You can fight a people out of love as to bring them salvation.

There's no shortage of hadiths about loving one's brother and neighbour (not just blood brother and neighborhood mate of course), but that was never interpreted as pacifism normally. That doesn't mean that there some liberal Muslims nowadays who use such hadiths to claim a pacifist position. That's certainly what we were thought in school in  'Islamic education' subject, which is dictated more by the US than by scholars.

And when I say Prophet's, I mean all of those you believe in. A lot of the Prophets were leaders of states and had armies and they fought wars and killed people, those who didn't didn't do so because they held pacifist stances but rather because they couldn't so mainly due to lack of followship. (e.g. Noah)
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2010, 04:21:37 AM »

I'm just describing two very possible encounters with Christianity and Islam, which serve as an indication of the current state of affairs for the two religion, drawing conclusions is up to you.

I'm sorry, but what you wrote was two imagined encounters that serve to indicate your ideas of them and not necessarily any reality at least in regards to the Christian scenario, imo.  Do you have experience visiting any Christian churches that you then can base your imagining upon? 

Quote
Regardless of individual cases, Muslims tend to be vry pious when in mosques,

And many Christians I know tend to be very pious when in churches. I know pious and sincere older ladies, Anglican and EO, who do not cover their hair because it is not the custom and they don't wear skirts down to the ground but they are still modest and believing.  My muslim neighbors are also very fine people outside of their mosque (since I have never had the chance to observe them at worship that is all I can truthfully write)

Quote
Also, I don't think you and I would disagree that Muslims tend to adhere to their religion more strictly then Christian, even the Orthodox, and they tend to be, shall I say, more Christian, if we were to disregard theological matters.

I'm sorry, but you are making a very big assumption about Gabriel's experiences and views.  If you have had negative experiences with Christians that is very unfortunate.  Do you know many Christians personally and may one ask what Churches they belong to? 

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2010, 04:32:14 AM »

I'd rather lithurgical music to be frozen in time than to change according to what's fashionable. But some, more or less, modern music is still good. Some Baroch music is fine (e.g. Back), even some contemprary ecclesiastical music is also not bad (.e. Arvo Part). But they certainly fall short of medieval music.

Hey, I agree that we should stick to the ancient stuff and that is exactly what Orthodoxy has kept.

Here is an ancient Orthodox hymn that is sung daily during Vespers in the Orthodox Church. The recording is in Arabic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysH2FCIZZNo&feature=related

Another ancient hymn also in Arabic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGIrAr9y90k&feature=related

You have to realize that all Christians don't have praise bands, "holy rollers," and all that junk.
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2010, 04:34:21 AM »

I'd rather lithurgical music to be frozen in time than to change according to what's fashionable. But some, more or less, modern music is still good. Some Baroch music is fine (e.g. Back), even some contemprary ecclesiastical music is also not bad (.e. Arvo Part). But they certainly fall short of medieval music.

Hey, I agree that we should stick to the ancient stuff and that is exactly what Orthodoxy has kept.

P.S.: Apologies for typo concerning Bach, can't fix it now!

Here is an ancient Orthodox hymn that is sung daily during Vespers in the Orthodox Church. The recording is in Arabic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysH2FCIZZNo&feature=related

Another ancient hymn also in Arabic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGIrAr9y90k&feature=related

You have to realize that all Christians don't have praise bands, "holy rollers," and all that junk.

Yes, yes, I'm well aware of that. Also, thanks for thanks for the links.
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« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2010, 04:38:00 AM »

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.

And we would obviously disagree with you. We believe Orthodoxy has kept the original Christian Faith.
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« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2010, 04:46:27 AM »

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.

And we would obviously disagree with you. We believe Orthodoxy has kept the original Christian Faith.

Well, almost half of Christians are Protestants, and there's much more Catholics than Orthodox, but I was not even talking about faith or doctrine, I'm talking about practice. Just take Lebanon, it has an almost equal number of Muslims and Christians, both are free to practice their religion or not, but which group has the highest percentage of women covering their hair? How about the highest percentage of chaste people? Mosque and Church attendance rate etc.
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« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2010, 05:02:28 AM »

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.

And we would obviously disagree with you. We believe Orthodoxy has kept the original Christian Faith.

Well, almost half of Christians are Protestants, and there's much more Catholics than Orthodox, but I was not even talking about faith or doctrine, I'm talking about practice. Just take Lebanon, it has an almost equal number of Muslims and Christians, both are free to practice their religion or not, but which group has the highest percentage of women covering their hair? How about the highest percentage of chaste people? Mosque and Church attendance rate etc.
Do you take the piety of its practitioners to be the best indicator, or even a good indicator of the truth of a religion?  I'm glad you see those of your religion as more pious in their practice of Islam than we Christians are of our religion, and it saddens me that those who call themselves Christians don't take the practice of their faith that seriously.  But your superior piety doesn't prove that the religion of Islam is true and superior to Christianity.
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« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2010, 05:14:22 AM »

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.

And we would obviously disagree with you. We believe Orthodoxy has kept the original Christian Faith.

Well, almost half of Christians are Protestants, and there's much more Catholics than Orthodox, but I was not even talking about faith or doctrine, I'm talking about practice. Just take Lebanon, it has an almost equal number of Muslims and Christians, both are free to practice their religion or not, but which group has the highest percentage of women covering their hair? How about the highest percentage of chaste people? Mosque and Church attendance rate etc.
Do you take the piety of its practitioners to be the best indicator, or even a good indicator of the truth of a religion?  I'm glad you see those of your religion as more pious in their practice of Islam than we Christians are of our religion, and it saddens me that those who call themselves Christians don't take the practice of their faith that seriously.  But your superior piety doesn't prove that the religion of Islam is true and superior to Christianity.

Not that I don't consider Islam to be superior to any form of Christianity, and even though the Gospel says that a tree is to be judged by its fruit, it was not my intention to do so in this thread. I was merely referring to the fact that Christians in average have diverged from what would be considered to be pious in an Israelities contest both in every day life and in worship (not that both are not interlinked), someting which can't be said about the average Islamic society.

Even if there were deviant aspects in some Muslim communities lives, they are ferociously fought by scholars and pious laymen, whereas, in most Christian communities, dissolution is not only very common but also encouraged as being Christian (like I said, almost half of Christians are Protestant, and Protestants are not alone in this phenomenon).
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« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2010, 07:34:35 AM »

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats. He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.

Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.

and woke up Mohammad, the hero of wishful thinking.
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« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2010, 08:06:15 AM »

and woke up Mohammad, the hero of wishful thinking.

I'm sorry, I can't say I got what you're expressing there. Could you please clear things up a little?
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« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2010, 08:08:02 AM »


I'm sorry, I can't say I got what you're expressing there. Could you please clear things up a little?

I mean this cheap tale is a product of wishful thinking. Muslims like such tales because Mohammad was a man dedicated to wishful thinking. Check the Qur'an to understand what I mean.  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2010, 08:25:16 AM »

I mean this cheap tale is a product of wishful thinking. Muslims like such tales because Mohammad was a man dedicated to wishful thinking. Check the Qur'an to understand what I mean.  Wink

You mean that if you entered a random Church in the West you'll find it full of worshipers in a Wednesday and you'll find the mall observant to the Christian dress code and talking about religious matters and being pious all over? And the opposite if you  walked into a random mosque in the same day?
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« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2010, 10:14:32 AM »


... but I was not even talking about faith or doctrine, I'm talking about practice. Just take Lebanon, it has an almost equal number of Muslims and Christians, both are free to practice their religion or not, 

 Did you really post "Both are free to practice their religion..."?  Because even though the Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion, in actual practice, it's quite a different thing altogether.  There are Christian's whose faith is not important to them, but there are Muslims who fit that category too.  The difference is that in Christianity, it's a matter between the person and God (and perhaps their pastor or Priest), while in Islam it's a matter of the person and the crowd of people holding rocks.  See where I'm going with this?  I don't think you really want to pursue this one, friend.
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« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2010, 10:16:29 AM »

I mean this cheap tale is a product of wishful thinking. Muslims like such tales because Mohammad was a man dedicated to wishful thinking. Check the Qur'an to understand what I mean.  Wink

You mean that if you entered a random Church in the West you'll find it full of worshipers in a Wednesday and you'll find the mall observant to the Christian dress code and talking about religious matters and being pious all over? And the opposite if you  walked into a random mosque in the same day?

 I've been in plenty of 'random' mosques and my experience has been the exact opposite of what you're telling us.  Mosques on any other day than Friday are like what American's call 'ghost towns' i.e. there's hardly any one there.
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« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2010, 10:42:41 AM »

Did you really post "Both are free to practice their religion..."?  Because even though the Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion, in actual practice, it's quite a different thing altogether. 

Yes, yes, yes, both Christian and Muslims are free to go to pray or not, to go to the mosque or the church or not, free to be pious or not, free to fornicate or not. There's no practised law against those things and hardly any social pressure against them.

And the verse you referred to is not interpreted as a call to let people do whatever they will, Islam does not condone chaos and anarchy.

Quote
There are Christian's whose faith is not important to them, but there are Muslims who fit that category too.  The difference is that in Christianity, it's a matter between the person and God (and perhaps their pastor or Priest), while in Islam it's a matter of the person and the crowd of people holding rocks.  See where I'm going with this?  I don't think you really want to pursue this one, friend.

Perhaps you are more knowledgeable about the state of things in Lebanon than I, but I still find what you're saying quite strange. Here in Morocco, a country much more conservative than Lebanon, you don't get any harassment for not praying or not observing the law, even for fornication, something which is very unfortunate indeed. But I wouldn't call you a liar if you said that things are different in Lebanon, and that Muslims there are only pious because otherwise people would throw rocks at them or whatever you're saying.
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« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2010, 10:44:58 AM »

I've been in plenty of 'random' mosques and my experience has been the exact opposite of what you're telling us.  Mosques on any other day than Friday are like what American's call 'ghost towns' i.e. there's hardly any one there.

All I know is that we have five prayers a day and the mosques are never short of worshipers even during the dawn prayer and even though there's a mosque at every corner. But perhaps we have an exception here, I wouldn't call you a liar again.
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« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2010, 10:55:30 AM »

I've been in plenty of 'random' mosques and my experience has been the exact opposite of what you're telling us.  Mosques on any other day than Friday are like what American's call 'ghost towns' i.e. there's hardly any one there.

All I know is that we have five prayers a day and the mosques are never short of worshipers even during the dawn prayer and even though there's a mosque at every corner. But perhaps we have an exception here, I wouldn't call you a liar again.
And yet it's still nothing more than wishful boasting if your religion is false.
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« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2010, 11:50:11 AM »

Let me tell you this, paying a higher tax than the local population is much, much, much more fair than you can ever imagine.



You need to go to a board where the group posting there has never lived under Islam.  You need to go elsewhere to have people believe your fairy tales and justifications. 

The tax was not fair.  It was never fair.  There were times in history, such as during the eighth century, when the taxes were so ruinously high that no one could possible pay them.  When they couldn't be paid, people were given the choice to convert to Islam or be put to the sword.  The Armenians would never convert, so they would be put to the sword.  Or, I should say, the men were put to the sword while the women and children were taken and sold into slavery, often sexual slavery.  Entire cities were wiped off the map this way.  And your justification that this was an act against a rebellious people is just a lie.  These cities were wiped out because they could not pay a tax and they would not convert. 

And the taxes were not only monetary.  Throughout the history of Islamic rule, there was also a tax to be paid in women and children, the most notorious being the Devshirme tax of the Ottomans.  Even after the Devshirme was abolished (not for humanitarian reasons, but because the Sultan became afraid of them,) women and children were still taken.  Usually it was prepubescent girls who were taken to be sold as concubines.  It wasn't exclusively girls, though.  In Istanbul there was a notorious brothel that was staffed with little boys for men who had that perversion.  The little boys were forcibly taken from Christian homes, as part of your "fair" tax.

This sort of thing continued into the early 20th century.  The sheer barbarity of the practice cannot be quantified, and you call it "fair."  How fair would you call it if in Christian countries Muslims were subject to having their twelve year old daughters dragged away from their homes, never to be seen by their families again, so that they can be sold as concubines?  That was the daily life of Christians living in Muslim countries for 13 centuries.  My great grandmother was married at a very young age just to avoid being taken like that.  She used to describe to my mom how the girls in her village would cut their faces so they wouldn't be taken when news came that the Turks were coming.

Your attempts to justify atrocities won't work here.  Go elsewhere with this cr*p.  You can also go elsewhere with your insulting caricatures of Christians.  You want proof of devotion to God?  How about enduring 13 centuries of persecution, slaughter, and watching your children be dragged off to be sold as sex slaves, all because you refuse to convert to another religion?  Is that devout enough for you? 

And I haven't even touched on the Genocide.  That will just make me mad, and I don't want to be mad this morning.

Your posts here make me sick. 
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« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2010, 11:57:34 AM »

Let me tell you this, paying a higher tax than the local population is much, much, much more fair than you can ever imagine.



You need to go to a board where the group posting there has never lived under Islam.  You need to go elsewhere to have people believe your fairy tales and justifications. 

The tax was not fair.  It was never fair.  There were times in history, such as during the eighth century, when the taxes were so ruinously high that no one could possible pay them.  When they couldn't be paid, people were given the choice to convert to Islam or be put to the sword.  The Armenians would never convert, so they would be put to the sword.  Or, I should say, the men were put to the sword while the women and children were taken and sold into slavery, often sexual slavery.  Entire cities were wiped off the map this way.  And your justification that this was an act against a rebellious people is just a lie.  These cities were wiped out because they could not pay a tax and they would not convert. 

And the taxes were not only monetary.  Throughout the history of Islamic rule, there was also a tax to be paid in women and children, the most notorious being the Devshirme tax of the Ottomans.  Even after the Devshirme was abolished (not for humanitarian reasons, but because the Sultan became afraid of them,) women and children were still taken.  Usually it was prepubescent girls who were taken to be sold as concubines.  It wasn't exclusively girls, though.  In Istanbul there was a notorious brothel that was staffed with little boys for men who had that perversion.  The little boys were forcibly taken from Christian homes, as part of your "fair" tax.

This sort of thing continued into the early 20th century.  The sheer barbarity of the practice cannot be quantified, and you call it "fair."  How fair would you call it if in Christian countries Muslims were subject to having their twelve year old daughters dragged away from their homes, never to be seen by their families again, so that they can be sold as concubines?  That was the daily life of Christians living in Muslim countries for 13 centuries.  My great grandmother was married at a very young age just to avoid being taken like that.  She used to describe to my mom how the girls in her village would cut their faces so they wouldn't be taken when news came that the Turks were coming.

Your attempts to justify atrocities won't work here.  Go elsewhere with this cr*p.  You can also go elsewhere with your insulting caricatures of Christians.  You want proof of devotion to God?  How about enduring 13 centuries of persecution, slaughter, and watching your children be dragged off to be sold as sex slaves, all because you refuse to convert to another religion?  Is that devout enough for you? 

And I haven't even touched on the Genocide.  That will just make me mad, and I don't want to be mad this morning.

Your posts here make me sick. 

The post from which you've quoted that part explains in enough details why the Dhimmi status is more than fair. I don't think I have to repeat that.

And may I ask you something; Why would you complain about anything that might have happened to you if you understand Jesus' saying to trun the other cheek as you do? There seems to be a lack of consistency there.
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« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2010, 12:27:07 PM »

The post from which you've quoted that part explains in enough details why the Dhimmi status is more than fair. I don't think I have to repeat that.

It's obvious that neither you nor any of your relatives have ever lived as dhimmi.


Quote
And may I ask you something; Why would you complain about anything that might have happened to you if you understand Jesus' saying to trun the other cheek as you do? There seems to be a lack of consistency there.

Nice try at using our religion to keep us silent so you can spread your lies.  Turing the other cheek, however, is not the same thing as allowing others to lie about history.

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« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2010, 12:37:23 PM »

Quote from: Salpy
It's obvious that neither you nor any of your relatives have ever lived as dhimmi.

You're using the lowest type of moralism as an argument. Let's say there's a country where they put the rapists, muderderers and all worst criminal in a 5 star hotels with 5 stars service but they can't go outside, they are free to do whatever they want inside however. Guess what would happen if the state in this country decided to let these criminals vote for whether they want to kkep this "punishment" or to abolish all punishments for those crimes and set them free. You will have a few empty 5 star hotels. This is just how things work. 5and please don't say I'm calling you criminals)

Quote
Nice try at using our religion to keep us silent so you can spread your lies.  Turing the other cheek, however, is not the same thing as allowing others to lie about history.

This has nothing to do with what we say, it's all about how you deal with events. Let's say Muslim around the world made a joined statements saying that they have been to Christian worst than any group has ever been to an other group, would that make you accept that treatment and ask for more, that is, turing the other cheek?
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« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2010, 01:18:30 PM »

And may I ask you something; Why would you complain about anything that might have happened to you if you understand Jesus' saying to trun the other cheek as you do? There seems to be a lack of consistency there.

You misunderstand. We simply bring up what our martyrs went through in order to show the reality of what happened when you try to tell us otherwise. We remember the martyrs and we will tell about them because we must remember their sacrifices because maybe one day, we will have to face the same trials. We are not complaining about what happened, we are really just informing since you are trying to say that things were always fair for the Christians.
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« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2010, 01:29:01 PM »

This has nothing to do with what we say, it's all about how you deal with events. Let's say Muslim around the world made a joined statements saying that they have been to Christian worst than any group has ever been to an other group, would that make you accept that treatment and ask for more, that is, turing the other cheek?

But in reality you are running away from the conversation. The martyrs of our Church turned the other cheek when they willingly accepted tortures and death for their Faith. This is why we remember the martyrs. This is why we remember what they went through so we can have the strength one day to go through what they did, God willing. We deal with the events by calling our martyrs victors over the evil of those who persecuted them. When you read a hymn to any of the martyrs, they are ones of victory, not of complaint.

For example, I just opened up my Horologion to a random page so I could find a song to a martyr and look here. From the Troparion to the Holy Hieromartyr (by the way, when they are called Hieromartyr, that means they were clergy) St. Simeon, Bishop of Jerusalem which says that through his martyrdom he "didst destroy the deception and keep the faith." Or for the Holy Hieromartyr St. Patrick, Bishop of Prusa it says of him: "Shining luminously with the beauty of the priesthood and adorned with the blood of martyrdom."

Most Troparion to martyrs are all similar in the sense that it sees martyrdom as a great reward and thats how we celebrate the martyrs. I don't see any complaint in the hymns to the martyrs.

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« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2010, 01:29:42 PM »

You misunderstand. We simply bring up what our martyrs went through in order to show the reality of what happened when you try to tell us otherwise. We remember the martyrs and we will tell about them because we must remember their sacrifices because maybe one day, we will have to face the same trials. We are not complaining about what happened, we are really just informing since you are trying to say that things were always fair for the Christians.

Fair answer, thank you. So I understand from this that the people who fought Muslims and stopped them from conquering the entirety of Europe were, in a sense, heretics, right?
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« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2010, 02:58:18 PM »


You mean that if you entered a random Church in the West you'll find it full of worshipers in a Wednesday and you'll find the mall observant to the Christian dress code and talking about religious matters and being pious all over? And the opposite if you  walked into a random mosque in the same day?


I mean the following:

Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven. Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward. But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your gift may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:1-6)

Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You give a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you neglect what is more important in the law – justice, mercy, and faithfulness! You should have done these things without neglecting the others. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel! You clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside may become clean too! ou are like whitewashed tombs that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of the bones of the dead and of everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you look righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (Matthew 23:23-28)

God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
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« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2010, 03:05:53 PM »


Nice try at using our religion to keep us silent so you can spread your lies.  Turing the other cheek, however, is not the same thing as allowing others to lie about history.



This member is just one of the many brainwashed Muslims denying Christ's truth for Mohammad's gilded lies.  Wink

I never expect him to be clever enough to see that a healthy mind would never like to be treated as a prisoner in one's own land. This Muslim is so blind that he cannot even understand his fallacious defense is not supported by the Qur'an, which presents Dhimmi as a means of punishment and humiliation. His faulty reasoning concludes: "Justice is equal to punishing and humiliating people because of their lack of faith in Islam".
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« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2010, 03:08:15 PM »

You misunderstand. We simply bring up what our martyrs went through in order to show the reality of what happened when you try to tell us otherwise. We remember the martyrs and we will tell about them because we must remember their sacrifices because maybe one day, we will have to face the same trials. We are not complaining about what happened, we are really just informing since you are trying to say that things were always fair for the Christians.

Fair answer, thank you. So I understand from this that the people who fought Muslims and stopped them from conquering the entirety of Europe were, in a sense, heretics, right?


I wonder when Muslims will study logics and stop committing logical fallacies in their religious arguments.
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« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2010, 03:29:58 PM »


You mean that if you entered a random Church in the West you'll find it full of worshipers in a Wednesday and you'll find the mall observant to the Christian dress code and talking about religious matters and being pious all over? And the opposite if you  walked into a random mosque in the same day?


I mean the following:

Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven. Thus whenever you do charitable giving, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in synagogues and on streets so that people will praise them. I tell you the truth, they have their reward. But when you do your giving, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your gift may be in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:1-6)

Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You give a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you neglect what is more important in the law – justice, mercy, and faithfulness! You should have done these things without neglecting the others. Blind guides! You strain out a gnat yet swallow a camel! You clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside may become clean too! ou are like whitewashed tombs that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of the bones of the dead and of everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you look righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (Matthew 23:23-28)

God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)

So what you're saying is that the complete and utter dissolution and decadence that is reigning in Christian countries is intentional by Christians to hide their internal piety. I'll take your word for it.

I wonder when Muslims will study logics and stop committing logical fallacies in their religious arguments.

Could you please, dear kind sir, show me the logical fallacy in what I've said?

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« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2010, 03:37:57 PM »


So what you're saying is that the complete and utter dissolution and decadence that is reigning in Christian countries is intentional by Christians to hide their internal piety. I'll take your word for it.


This is what you WANT me to say instead of what I say and mean by quoting Jesus' words above.

Thanks for giving a fresh example of straw-man argument.  laugh



Could you please, dear kind sir, show me the logical fallacy in what I've said?


Read your response above. It includes the logical fallacy of straw man.
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« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2010, 03:53:18 PM »

This is what you WANT me to say instead of what I say and mean by quoting Jesus' words above.

Thanks for giving a fresh example of straw-man argument.  laugh

Well I'm talking about the lack of piety among Christians and you're presenting quotes warning against ostentatiousness, how else am I going to understand that? Perhaps if you can clarify the matter.



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« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2010, 03:58:14 PM »



Well I'm talking about the lack of piety among Christians and you're presenting quotes warning against ostentatiousness, how else am I going to understand that? Perhaps if you can clarify the matter.

The examples you gave to prove the supposed piety of Muslims in your tale are direct examples of ostentatiousness. In your opinion, covering the head and praying often in a mosque suffice to denote piety, which is not the case according to Jesus.
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« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2010, 04:12:05 PM »

Hate to say it, but you're probably right.  Our greatest Saints show up when we're persecuted.  The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church.  But the Latins gave us some good persecutin' too.  Islam can't take all the credit.  And don't forget the Communists!

That's not quite what I was talking about. If what you said ws true, Catholicism would be the purest religion on Earth as it was the maint target of the "Enlightenment" which thought to annihilate anything Traditional, and anything of supra-human nature. And where is "turning the other cheek" as most Christians seem to interpret it, you're not supposed to whine even if you were killed, but to call paying Jizya a prosecution is an exaseration to say the least.

Quote
As to the OP, I think if our Lord were to come to some modern McChurches he would probably be appalled at the commerce being done in his name.  Likewise, if the Prophet came back, he would be appalled at 13 year old girls getting gang raped, informing the police, then being stoned for adultery. 

Even if there multiple cases like what you described, it would almost impossible to come across it due to the odds. But the fact is, it's a single case that happened in Somalia. And there's no ambiguation about the Islamic stance on the subject, the girls goes and the rapists gets punished.

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “Stone him to death.” (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)
So she was forgiven for nothing she had done. Allah is surely most merciful. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2010, 04:17:26 PM »

They also practise non-resistance, which means they are peace-loving people who are opposed to war and killing people. I think we could learn from their example.

Moses and David waged wars and killed people, what do you think of them? Why did central Christian figures have swords on them and used them, like George? The only thing that saved Christianity from disappearence is that most, if not all, of the Christian who were in power didn't hold this interpretation of things.
So you keep saying.  But you still haven't explained how this:

submitted to this:
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« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2010, 04:20:23 PM »

Christ teaches us a new way under the New Covenant. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? From a worldly perspective, peacefulness and loving our enemies may be incomprehensible, but for some Christians, this is the only way. Yes, it is radical, it is difficult, but the Christian life is never easy.

Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism. When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation. And I quite honestly think that before People start claiming pacifism they should actively seek the abolishment of their states' armies first.

Furthermore. Anything that was said at the mountain was thought by all Prophets.
Hardly.
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« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2010, 05:03:59 PM »

So you keep saying.  But you still haven't explained how this:

submitted to this:


By not holding a pacifist stance through prosecuting pagans and "heretics" and defending the empire against invaders. This is quite simple frankly.

But even if we were to say that Rome abolished its army and never used it again after adopting Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that the Prophets still waged wars and killed people both in defence and in offence.
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« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2010, 05:11:00 PM »


By not holding a pacifist stance through prosecuting pagans and "heretics" and defending the empire against invaders. This is quite simple frankly.

But even if we were to say that Rome abolished its army and never used it again after adopting Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that the Prophets still waged wars and killed people both in defence and in offence.


Why should Rome have abolished her army after embracing Christianity? Christ did not sripulate such a thing.

Which prophets are you talking about when you say they killed people? It seems you are confusing leaders (kings) with prophets.
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« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2010, 05:20:30 PM »

Why should Rome have abolished her army after embracing Christianity? Christ did not sripulate such a thing.

Of course he didn't, I didn't say he did, not did I say rome should've thrown its swrods. But some Christians claim that pacifism is the Christian stance on warfare, which means that a Christian state should not have an army.

Quote
Which prophets are you talking about when you say they killed people? It seems you are confusing leaders (kings) with prophets.

Take the two examples I've been giving all along: Moses and David.
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« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2010, 05:39:11 PM »


Of course he didn't, I didn't say he did, not did I say rome should've thrown its swrods. But some Christians claim that pacifism is the Christian stance on warfare, which means that a Christian state should not have an army.

There is no Christian state in the world in the sense of an Islamic state. There are Christian individuals.



Take the two examples I've been giving all along: Moses and David.

David was a KING. Samuel was a prophet.

Moses was the LEADER of the Israelites at the time of the Exodus.

Kings and leaders of nations/tribes wage wars. This is something natural. However, you cannot use these figures to support your generalization that all prophets were or had to be warriors.



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« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2010, 05:50:38 PM »

There is no Christian state in the world in the sense of an Islamic state. There are Christian individuals.

The Roman and Byzantine Empires fit the definition of a state in all and every aspect, and those two are far form being the only Christian states.

David was a KING. Samuel was a prophet.

Moses was the LEADER of the Israelites at the time of the Exodus.

Kings and leaders of nations/tribes wage wars. This is something natural. However, you cannot use these figures to support your generalization that all prophets were or had to be warriors.

David was both prophet and a king and so was Saul.

All I'm trying to say that pacifism is not the "Biblical" position, that is, it was not what he Prophets thought. The second thing I want to say is that if you consider pacifism to be the Christian position even though it contradicts what the Prophets were ordered to believe and practice by God Almighty, then that's up, but you can't claim that was is inherently evil as you would be committing a clear blasphemy then.



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« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2010, 06:07:16 PM »

Let me tell you this, paying a higher tax than the local population is much, much, much more fair than you can ever imagine.



You need to go to a board where the group posting there has never lived under Islam.  You need to go elsewhere to have people believe your fairy tales and justifications.  

The tax was not fair.  It was never fair.  There were times in history, such as during the eighth century, when the taxes were so ruinously high that no one could possible pay them.  When they couldn't be paid, people were given the choice to convert to Islam or be put to the sword.  The Armenians would never convert, so they would be put to the sword.  Or, I should say, the men were put to the sword while the women and children were taken and sold into slavery, often sexual slavery.  Entire cities were wiped off the map this way.  And your justification that this was an act against a rebellious people is just a lie.  These cities were wiped out because they could not pay a tax and they would not convert.  

And the taxes were not only monetary.  Throughout the history of Islamic rule, there was also a tax to be paid in women and children, the most notorious being the Devshirme tax of the Ottomans.  Even after the Devshirme was abolished (not for humanitarian reasons, but because the Sultan became afraid of them,) women and children were still taken.  Usually it was prepubescent girls who were taken to be sold as concubines.  It wasn't exclusively girls, though.  In Istanbul there was a notorious brothel that was staffed with little boys for men who had that perversion.  The little boys were forcibly taken from Christian homes, as part of your "fair" tax.

This sort of thing continued into the early 20th century.  The sheer barbarity of the practice cannot be quantified, and you call it "fair."  How fair would you call it if in Christian countries Muslims were subject to having their twelve year old daughters dragged away from their homes, never to be seen by their families again, so that they can be sold as concubines?  That was the daily life of Christians living in Muslim countries for 13 centuries.  My great grandmother was married at a very young age just to avoid being taken like that.  She used to describe to my mom how the girls in her village would cut their faces so they wouldn't be taken when news came that the Turks were coming.

Your attempts to justify atrocities won't work here.  Go elsewhere with this cr*p.  You can also go elsewhere with your insulting caricatures of Christians.  You want proof of devotion to God?  How about enduring 13 centuries of persecution, slaughter, and watching your children be dragged off to be sold as sex slaves, all because you refuse to convert to another religion?  Is that devout enough for you?  

And I haven't even touched on the Genocide.  That will just make me mad, and I don't want to be mad this morning.

Your posts here make me sick.  

The post from which you've quoted that part explains in enough details why the Dhimmi status is more than fair. I don't think I have to repeat that.

And may I ask you something; Why would you complain about anything that might have happened to you if you understand Jesus' saying to trun the other cheek as you do? There seems to be a lack of consistency there.
That is about the most hypocritical thing I've ever read! You justify Muslim persecution of Christians by telling us that we need to turn the other cheek. That's like saying, "Hold still and don't resist as I put this bullet through your head."  Rather than lecture us on how we should follow our Gospel so that you might see your vested interests fulfilled, maybe you should take a good close look at your religion and see how evil it is that it would be the agent of such persecution.
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« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2010, 06:07:41 PM »


The Roman and Byzantine Empires fit the definition of a state in all and every aspect, and those two are far form being the only Christian states.

You seem to have difficulty reading what I write.

There is no Christian state in the world in the sense of an Islamic state. Byzantine was an earthly empire that had man-made state laws. The Roman Empire existed before the birth of Christianity.


David was both prophet and a king and so was Saul.

David waged wars because he was not only a prophet, but also a king. Saul was only a king, not a prophet.

All I'm trying to say that pacifism is not the "Biblical" position, that is, it was not what he Prophets thought. The second thing I want to say is that if you consider pacifism to be the Christian position even though it contradicts what the Prophets were ordered to believe and practice by God Almighty, then that's up, but you can't claim that was is inherently evil as you would be committing a clear blasphemy then.


Jesus' words refute your argument as they are in the Bible.  

If you say what Jesus taught is not what the prophets taught, you are committing a clear blasphemy even according to your Islamic tenet.

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« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2010, 07:54:15 PM »

So you keep saying.  But you still haven't explained how this:

submitted to this:


By not holding a pacifist stance through prosecuting pagans and "heretics" and defending the empire against invaders. This is quite simple frankly.

Constantine prosecuted neither pagans nor heretics:that's how the Arians were in a position to persecute the Orthodox after his death.  He did favor the Orthodox Christians over both (for the most part).  And Christ didn't speak against self defense against invaders.

But you still haven't addressed the issue: who did the Church, without an army, conquer the Roman Empire and the Kingdom of Armenia, after three centuries of being under capital sentence?

Quote
But even if we were to say that Rome abolished its army and never used it again after adopting Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that the Prophets still waged wars and killed people both in defence and in offence.
Even if they did, after Christ, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, had come, His Way takes precedence.
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« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2010, 07:54:47 PM »

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “Stone him to death.” (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

Not quite:

Quote
Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.

She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).

When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366

First why did Muhammad say to the woman "..for Allah has forgiven you"? Forgiven her for WHAT???

Second notice that the man who raped her CONFESSED that he raped her. What if the man who rapes the woman DOES NOT CONFESS? What if he DENIES it?

Here's the reality for women under Shari'ah:

Quote
The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Dr. Muhammad Matraji, tr. (New Delhi: Islamic Book Service, 2002), Number 2658.

Muhammad makes himself quite clear that he considers the testimony of a woman of lessor worth than the testimony of a man because he believes that women are stupid!

What does this imply for governing authorities like the police, lawyers and judges in Shari'ah courts? Let me paint a picture that is very common in Muslim countries:

A Christian teenage girl is gang raped by a group of Muslim men. She reports them and the police arrest them. When the men are questioned they DENY that they raped her, instead they say that she was a prostitute because she was wearing a miniskirt and no headscarf. Who will the authorities likely side with? The girl or the men? Why the men of course because the girl's testimony is of lessor worth, because "Muhammad said so"! And the result: the girl is punished while the men walk off scot free!!! Happens all the time.

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« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2010, 07:56:44 PM »

Why should Rome have abolished her army after embracing Christianity? Christ did not sripulate such a thing.

Of course he didn't, I didn't say he did, not did I say rome should've thrown its swrods. But some Christians claim that pacifism is the Christian stance on warfare, which means that a Christian state should not have an army.

Quote
Which prophets are you talking about when you say they killed people? It seems you are confusing leaders (kings) with prophets.

Take the two examples I've been giving all along: Moses and David.
And Moses didn't make it into the Promised Land, and David was barred from building the Temple.
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« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2010, 10:32:58 PM »

First of all, welcome to the forum. I don't remember us having a Muslim member on this board before,

I don't recall if Gabriel was still Muslim when he first came here. It's been a while.  Smiley

No, friend, al-hamdulillahi ('Praise God' as the Muslims say), I was not Muslim when I found this forum.  I left Islam back in 2001-02 and Glory to Jesus the Christ, was baptized and chrismated on October 9th, 2004. 
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« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2010, 10:49:12 PM »

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats. He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.

Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.

Mekki,

 I want to back up just a bit and address this post again.  On another thread, you initiated discussion on 42 hadiths and how they would compare to Orthodox Christianity.  You stated that you were not proselytizing there.  Though your words ring somewhat dubious, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that thread.  But what exactly is it that you're trying to say on this thread?  You've compared Christians to Muslims and then (not surprisingly) asserted that Muslims are more pious and attuned to their vows while Christians are far, far less pious and even lackadaisical.  What is it you wish to gain from these hurtful words?  If you want to prove that there are Christians who are lazy and remain sinners, you're correct for I am one of them.  I freely admit that I need Christ and His Church in my life.  Are you trying to tell us that there are many wonderful Muslims who care deeply about their faith?  Again, I freely will go along with you here too.  I have known many kind, thoughtful and patient Muslims whom Christians could probably learn a little from.  But I'm just having a difficult time surmising what it is you want us to think or say about your post here.  Huh


 
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« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2010, 03:31:22 AM »

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That is about the most hypocritical thing I've ever read! You justify Muslim persecution of Christians by telling us that we need to turn the other cheek. That's like saying, "Hold still and don't resist as I put this bullet through your head."  Rather than lecture us on how we should follow our Gospel so that you might see your vested interests fulfilled, maybe you should take a good close look at your religion and see how evil it is that it would be the agent of such persecution.

If by prosecuting, you mean putting limitations one a person, then yes, indeed, Islam prosecutes Christians as it prosecutes Muslims and everyone else for putting limitation on a the life of the populace is the very definition of the law.

However, if by prosecution you mean preventing them from worship, then that is not Islamic and if anyone did it then he was acting against the Law. In the overwhelming majority of the time, Christians got a more than fair (I insist on it) treatment considering their situation, and please don't bring forward historical events, I've said the majority of the time and you know it's true.
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« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2010, 03:38:30 AM »


You seem to have difficulty reading what I write.

There is no Christian state in the world in the sense of an Islamic state. Byzantine was an earthly empire that had man-made state laws. The Roman Empire existed before the birth of Christianity.

So the Byzantine empire was not Orthodox! I'm not quite sure this is the canonical Orthodox position on the matter.


David waged wars because he was not only a prophet, but also a king. Saul was only a king, not a prophet.

If war is evil, it is not justified by being a king. Are you suggesting that Moses and David committed such great evil by commandment from God and it was all recorded in the Bible?

Quote
Jesus' words refute your argument as they are in the Bible.  

If you say what Jesus taught is not what the prophets taught, you are committing a clear blasphemy even according to your Islamic tenet.


That's your interpretation of Jesus' words. I'm arguing that this interpretation is wrong because it it goes against the bible and the Prophetic tradition and because it's quite simply impossible, that is it is impossible to be pacifist.

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« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2010, 03:44:43 AM »

Constantine prosecuted neither pagans nor heretics:that's how the Arians were in a position to persecute the Orthodox after his death.  He did favor the Orthodox Christians over both (for the most part).  And Christ didn't speak against self defense against invaders.

Regardless of what Constantine did, the fact remains that the Roman empire fought everyone into submitting and, unlike what Muslims did, embracing the agreed on Christian creed.

Quote
But you still haven't addressed the issue: who did the Church, without an army, conquer the Roman Empire and the Kingdom of Armenia, after three centuries of being under capital sentence?

By the heads of the Empire converting and then fighting everyone else into it, which is fine by me unless it result into forced conversion.

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Even if they did, after Christ, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, had come, His Way takes precedence.

So you're taking a Protestant position now, yes? What did Matta 5:17 say?
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Theophilos78
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« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2010, 03:49:30 AM »


However, if by prosecution you mean preventing them from worship, then that is not Islamic and if anyone did it then he was acting against the Law. In the overwhelming majority of the time, Christians got a more than fair (I insist on it) treatment considering their situation, and please don't bring forward historical events, I've said the majority of the time and you know it's true.

This is a lie. Islamic governments always prevent Christians from obeying their Lord's commandment in the Gospel: "Go and proclaim the Gospel to all nations". Preaching any religion other than Islam is not allowed (considered a crime) under Islamic Sharia.
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« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2010, 03:51:32 AM »

First why did Muhammad say to the woman "..for Allah has forgiven you"? Forgiven her for WHAT???

It simply means that no sin was recorded against here, it doesn't mean she did something wrong but she was forgiven for it, otherwise she would've been punished on Earth.

Quote
Second notice that the man who raped her CONFESSED that he raped her. What if the man who rapes the woman DOES NOT CONFESS? What if he DENIES it?

Well, she needs to provide some kind of evidence. We can't punish anyone due to anyone's claim. Read this and be ready to be chocked by the human mentality:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1292055/Student-jailed-rape-claim-invented-extension-course-work.html





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« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2010, 03:52:47 AM »

And Moses didn't make it into the Promised Land, and David was barred from building the Temple.

So you're saying that they were punished for not being pacifists, yes? Is this the position of the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2010, 03:55:11 AM »

Mekki,

 I want to back up just a bit and address this post again.  On another thread, you initiated discussion on 42 hadiths and how they would compare to Orthodox Christianity.  You stated that you were not proselytizing there.  Though your words ring somewhat dubious, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that thread.  But what exactly is it that you're trying to say on this thread?  You've compared Christians to Muslims and then (not surprisingly) asserted that Muslims are more pious and attuned to their vows while Christians are far, far less pious and even lackadaisical.  What is it you wish to gain from these hurtful words?  If you want to prove that there are Christians who are lazy and remain sinners, you're correct for I am one of them.  I freely admit that I need Christ and His Church in my life.  Are you trying to tell us that there are many wonderful Muslims who care deeply about their faith?  Again, I freely will go along with you here too.  I have known many kind, thoughtful and patient Muslims whom Christians could probably learn a little from.  But I'm just having a difficult time surmising what it is you want us to think or say about your post here.  Huh

I'm just stating a hardly disputable fact. You can either take it as an indication of Islam's superiority or as a sign that Christians have some problem to work on. For me it's both, there's nothing better than a Christian embracing the light, but if not, I'd like to live in a society where both Muslims and Christians lead virtuous lives.
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« Reply #76 on: July 12, 2010, 03:56:35 AM »

Quote
That is about the most hypocritical thing I've ever read! You justify Muslim persecution of Christians by telling us that we need to turn the other cheek. That's like saying, "Hold still and don't resist as I put this bullet through your head."  Rather than lecture us on how we should follow our Gospel so that you might see your vested interests fulfilled, maybe you should take a good close look at your religion and see how evil it is that it would be the agent of such persecution.

If by prosecuting, you mean putting limitations one a person, then yes, indeed, Islam prosecutes Christians as it prosecutes Muslims and everyone else for putting limitation on a the life of the populace is the very definition of the law.

However, if by prosecution you mean preventing them from worship, then that is not Islamic and if anyone did it then he was acting against the Law. In the overwhelming majority of the time, Christians got a more than fair (I insist on it) treatment considering their situation, and please don't bring forward historical events, I've said the majority of the time and you know it's true.
Which word do you intend to use here:  "prosecute" or "persecute"?  The former is deserved, while the latter is not.

Otherwise, let me put my words this way:  Your co-religionists invade a Christian country and place the resident Christians in a clearly second-class status with your dhimmi tax, which others have pointed out involves such things as kidnapping of women and children to make them sex slaves. And you have the gall to remind us of our Lord's command that we turn the other cheek? Why the hell should we follow your advice? You clearly have a vested interest in seeing that we not resist the persecution you advocate as "fair" and "just".

BTW, regarding this "bringing forward historical events", I'm only attacking your justification of past (and current?) atrocities your co-religionists have committed (and continue to commit?) against Orthodox Christians and your advice that we "turn the other cheek"--IOW, not fight back or complain as your cronies rape our women and children.
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« Reply #77 on: July 12, 2010, 03:57:13 AM »

This is a lie. Islamic governments always prevent Christians from obeying their Lord's commandment in the Gospel: "Go and proclaim the Gospel to all nations". Preaching any religion other than Islam is not allowed (considered a crime) under Islamic Sharia.

So that's what you were talking about when you said prosecution? You scared me for a while! Well, that's a part of the limitations I was talking about.
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« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2010, 04:01:27 AM »


So the Byzantine empire was not Orthodox! I'm not quite sure this is the canonical Orthodox position on the matter.

I am sick of your straw man arguments. Stop ascribing to me the distorted version of my views. 

If war is evil, it is not justified by being a king. Are you suggesting that Moses and David committed such great evil by commandment from God and it was all recorded in the Bible?

I do not say war is evil. Nations wage wars to survive. It is natural. However, neither Moses nor David said that prophets had to wage wars for the spread of their faith.

That's your interpretation of Jesus' words.

Show me a single verse where Jesus commands His followers to wage wars for His rescue from the hands of His enemies.
Cite a New Testament verse where Jesus says religious war for the spread of His doctrines is crucial.
Quote a single New Testament verse where Jesus asks His followers to spread the Gospel with sword.


I'm arguing that this interpretation is wrong because it it goes against the bible and the Prophetic tradition and because it's quite simply impossible, that is it is impossible to be pacifist.


Jesus' words do not need an interpretation as they are so simple and straightforward. You object to Jesus' statements because they go against what Mohammad taught. It was and is possible to preach the Gospel without the sword.
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« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2010, 04:04:12 AM »

Which word do you intend to use here:  "prosecute" or "persecute"?  The former is deserved, while the latter is not.

Otherwise, let me put my words this way:  Your co-religionists invade a Christian country and place the resident Christians in a clearly second-class status with your dhimmi tax, which others have pointed out involves such things as kidnapping of women and children to make them sex slaves. And you have the gall to remind us of our Lord's command that turn the other cheek? Why the hell should we follow your advice? You clearly have a vested interest in seeing that we not resist the persecution you advocate as "fair" and "just".

BTW, regarding this "bringing forward historical events", I'm only attacking your apparent justification of past (and current?) atrocities your co-religionists have committed (and continue to commit?) against Orthodox Christians and your apparent advice that we "turn the other cheek"--IOW, not fight back as your cronies rape our women and children.

I'm just curious whether or not you find it observant to that commandmen, like you interpret it, to whine about any thing that happens to you, regardless of whether what happens to you is fair or not.

And of course I would've loved it if you truly turned the other cheek like you think it means, not because I like to see you harmed, Like I said, the Legal and Historical treatment that Christians get is more than fair, aside from exceptional cases. I would've like it because Islam would've spread more easily. The overwhelming majority of the World would've been Muslim and wouldn't have to live in the filth of this modern world.
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« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2010, 04:04:33 AM »


So that's what you were talking about when you said prosecution? You scared me for a while! Well, that's a part of the limitations I was talking about.

Call it whatever you want. These limitations deny Christians the right to obey their religion. How can you say that Christians are granted the right to worship and remain Christians then?  laugh
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« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2010, 04:07:04 AM »

Of course, if Jesus truly is nothing more than a prophet, then He is merely another prophet of the Old Testament, and the New Testament means nothing.  This is one of the themes I see guiding Mekki's arguments here, and I think we can address his reasoning more effectively if we take this premise into account.
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« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2010, 04:07:44 AM »


And of course I would've loved it if you truly turned the other cheek like you think it means, not because I like to see you harmed, Like I said, the Legal and Historical treatment that Christians get is more than fair, aside from exceptional cases. I would've like it because Islam would've spread more easily. The overwhelming majority of the World would've been Muslim and wouldn't have to live in the filth of this modern world.

Turning the other cheek does not mean to submit to Satan or lies. Jesus never asked us to do this.

Thanks and praise be to YHWH, who protects us against the filth of Mohammad's false religion.
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« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2010, 04:19:33 AM »

Which word do you intend to use here:  "prosecute" or "persecute"?  The former is deserved, while the latter is not.

Otherwise, let me put my words this way:  Your co-religionists invade a Christian country and place the resident Christians in a clearly second-class status with your dhimmi tax, which others have pointed out involves such things as kidnapping of women and children to make them sex slaves. And you have the gall to remind us of our Lord's command that turn the other cheek? Why the hell should we follow your advice? You clearly have a vested interest in seeing that we not resist the persecution you advocate as "fair" and "just".

BTW, regarding this "bringing forward historical events", I'm only attacking your apparent justification of past (and current?) atrocities your co-religionists have committed (and continue to commit?) against Orthodox Christians and your apparent advice that we "turn the other cheek"--IOW, not fight back as your cronies rape our women and children.

I'm just curious whether or not you find it observant to that commandmen, like you interpret it, to whine about any thing that happens to you, regardless of whether what happens to you is fair or not.
What does it matter to you? Huh You clearly have a vested interest in seeing that we Christians not resist your invasions of our lands, so why should we listen to you when you remind us to turn the other cheek? When we Christians remind each other of that command of our Lord, we do so to spur each other on to the obedience to our Lord that saves us. When you remind us of that command, it's obvious that you do so merely so your co-religionists will find us ready to submit passively to your demands. You clearly don't have our salvation at heart.

BTW, just as you're putting words into Theophilos's mouth, you're putting words into my mouth. Rather than interpret our words the way you want to to fit your reasoning, you should actually listen to and address what we're really saying. I did not say what you just said I said.

And of course I would've loved it if you truly turned the other cheek like you think it means, not because I like to see you harmed, Like I said, the Legal and Historical treatment that Christians get is more than fair, aside from exceptional cases. I would've like it because Islam would've spread more easily. The overwhelming majority of the World would've been Muslim and wouldn't have to live in the filth of this modern world.
More evidence of your vested interest in seeing us passively subservient...  I've heard it said that the reason Jesus told us to turn the other cheek when an enemy strikes us on the one is to show our enemy just how evil his actions are so that he may repent. If instead of striking back we turn the other cheek, we allow our enemy the option to either continue his merciless attack or see how evil it is that he's willing to continue striking someone who won't fight back. Hopefully, this conviction of heart will lead him to repent and seek reconciliation rather than press his attack. If this bit of insight into Christ's mind is true--it really makes a lot of sense to me--then you're just showing how wicked your motives are that you would tell us to turn the other cheek just so you won't find us resisting your co-religionists' continued attacks on our faith and on our people.
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« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2010, 04:21:20 AM »


So that's what you were talking about when you said prosecution? You scared me for a while! Well, that's a part of the limitations I was talking about.

Call it whatever you want. These limitations deny Christians the right to obey their religion. How can you say that Christians are granted the right to worship and remain Christians then?  laugh

Come on, work with me here! In order for two different doctrines to co-exist one must be, more or less, conditioned. We would've loved if we would allow Christians to do everything they believe their books tell them to do, but that simply can't happen both de facto and de jure.
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« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2010, 04:22:20 AM »

Thanks and praise be to YHWH, who protects us against the filth of false religion.

Amin ya rabba al-'alamin.
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« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2010, 04:35:10 AM »


Come on, work with me here! In order for two different doctrines to co-exist one must be, more or less, conditioned. We would've loved if we would allow Christians to do everything they believe their books tell them to do, but that simply can't happen both de facto and de jure.

Who stipulates that? Who determines which doctrine will be conditioned? To what extent?

More to the point, what you are defining is not co-existence. If there is co-existence, BOTH doctrines will be conditioned so as not to assimilate or destroy the other. What Islam aims to do is gradually replace every other religion with Islam.
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« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2010, 04:52:37 AM »

Who stipulates that? Who determines which doctrine will be conditioned? To what extent?

Whoever is victorious of course. Both Muslims and Christians would like their religions to reign in full glory, but we're not going to play rock-paper-scissors to decide, or call for Zoroastrians to judge between us.

Quote
More to the point, what you are defining is not co-existence. If there is co-existence, BOTH doctrines will be conditioned so as not to assimilate or destroy the other. What Islam aims to do is gradually replace every other religion with Islam.

So instead if one being conditioned you're suggesting that both should be conditioned, I can't see how such wish would be fueled by anything other than spite. I mean one is conditioned regardless, why would you want the other to be conditioned as well?

As for co-existence, it simply means that the ideas exist in the same space or among the same population.

Please read a few words I wrote about the subject here:

http://omniavincitveritas.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/the-multiculturalism-fallacy/
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« Reply #88 on: July 12, 2010, 04:58:42 AM »

So instead if one being conditioned you're suggesting that both should be conditioned, I can't see how such wish would be fueled by anything other than spite. I mean one is conditioned regardless, why would you want the other to be conditioned as well?
Do we want Arians or Nestorians to be conditioned so as to not destroy or assimilate us? No. We want them to repent of their heresies and return to the Christian faith. The same is true of our desire for Muslims.
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« Reply #89 on: July 12, 2010, 05:06:02 AM »

So instead if one being conditioned you're suggesting that both should be conditioned, I can't see how such wish would be fueled by anything other than spite. I mean one is conditioned regardless, why would you want the other to be conditioned as well?
Do we want Arians or Nestorians to be conditioned so as to not destroy or assimilate us? No. We want them to repent of their heresies and return to the Christian faith. The same is true of our desire for Muslims.

Same here. So I guess we agree. you wouldn't agree to take a middle path between the divinity and non-divinity of Christ just because Arians live among you. You also wouldn't let them preach their doctrines. AndI'm not even going to touch on the fact that you've physically persecuted them and all other 'heretics'.
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« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2010, 05:15:27 AM »


Whoever is victorious of course. Both Muslims and Christians would like their religions to reign in full glory, but we're not going to play rock-paper-scissors to decide, or call for Zoroastrians to judge between us.

My question was a rhetoric.

Christians let Muslims preach their religion in the West although Muslims are still not in the majority. Christianity does not stipulate the death of apostates either. Christians never follow the Islamic strategy to make their faith reign in full glory.

So instead if one being conditioned you're suggesting that both should be conditioned, I can't see how such wish would be fueled by anything other than spite. I mean one is conditioned regardless, why would you want the other to be conditioned as well?

For the sake of justice, which is definitely a foreign term to brainwashed minds. If only one of the doctrines is free and the rest is conditioned, there will be no spite and enmity?

As for co-existence, it simply means that the ideas exist in the same space or among the same population.

Please read a few words I wrote about the subject here:

http://omniavincitveritas.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/the-multiculturalism-fallacy/

NO. That is not co-existence, but under-existence or subjugated existence. According to your interpretation, slavery was good and fair because slaves and free people existed in the same space and among the same population.  Grin

You probably revere the Pharaoh of the Exodus as he let the Israelites co-exist with the Egyptians with a few limitations/conditions.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2010, 05:15:36 AM »

So instead if one being conditioned you're suggesting that both should be conditioned, I can't see how such wish would be fueled by anything other than spite. I mean one is conditioned regardless, why would you want the other to be conditioned as well?
Do we want Arians or Nestorians to be conditioned so as to not destroy or assimilate us? No. We want them to repent of their heresies and return to the Christian faith. The same is true of our desire for Muslims.

Same here. So I guess we agree. you wouldn't agree to take a middle path between the divinity and non-divinity of Christ just because Arians live among you. You also wouldn't let them preach their doctrines. AndI'm not even going to touch on the fact that you've physically persecuted them and all other 'heretics'.
I don't deny that we have persecuted these and other heretics, and I don't even pretend to justify such evil behavior on the part of so many of our faithful.  So I don't think your attempt at a "you're just as guilty of the same offenses of which you accuse us Muslims" smear is going to find any traction with me.  The difference between you and me is that you actually justify your religion's persecution of others.
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« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2010, 05:20:46 AM »


Same here. So I guess we agree. you wouldn't agree to take a middle path between the divinity and non-divinity of Christ just because Arians live among you. You also wouldn't let them preach their doctrines. AndI'm not even going to touch on the fact that you've physically persecuted them and all other 'heretics'.

You have committed the logical fallacy of false analogy. Struggling a heresy within a faith is not the same as politically attacking and subjugating the members of other faiths.

Arianism was a threat from within. It did not want to co-exist with Christianity, but tried to replace it. Would Christians preach another form of Islam if they were allowed under Sharia?  Grin
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« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2010, 05:26:49 AM »


Christians let Muslims preach their religion in the West although Muslims are still not in the majority. Christianity does not stipulate the death of apostates either. Christians never follow the Islamic strategy to make their faith reign in full glory.

I have some news for you, anything that is even remotely close to Christianity ceased to exist in the West at least three centuries a go. To say that Christians are tolerant because of what's happening in the West is like saying Muslims oppose the concept of religion because of atheist Albania back in the days.

Also, what we should do is completely and utterly irrelevant of what Christians or Westerners do.


Quote
For the sake of justice, which is definitely a foreign term to brainwashed minds. If only one of the doctrines is free and the rest is conditioned, there will be no spite and enmity?

What you're talking about is egalitarianism which is an antonym of justice not a synonym. It is only due to the anti-Christian ideas of the "Enlightenment" that I alluded to in the previous paragraph that people would mistake justice with equality and vice versa.


Quote
You probably revere the Pharaoh of the Exodus as he let the Israelites co-exist with the Egyptians with a few limitations/conditions.  Roll Eyes

The evil stature given to the Pharaoh in the bible is not due to him persecuting the believers but to be presented as an archetype of disbelieve (kufr). Believe it or not, the bible is not a book for whining, it is a book for teaching.
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« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2010, 05:29:41 AM »

So instead if one being conditioned you're suggesting that both should be conditioned, I can't see how such wish would be fueled by anything other than spite. I mean one is conditioned regardless, why would you want the other to be conditioned as well?
Do we want Arians or Nestorians to be conditioned so as to not destroy or assimilate us? No. We want them to repent of their heresies and return to the Christian faith. The same is true of our desire for Muslims.

Same here. So I guess we agree. you wouldn't agree to take a middle path between the divinity and non-divinity of Christ just because Arians live among you. You also wouldn't let them preach their doctrines. AndI'm not even going to touch on the fact that you've physically persecuted them and all other 'heretics'.
I don't deny that we have persecuted these and other heretics, and I don't even pretend to justify such evil behavior on the part of so many of our faithful.  So I don't think your attempt at a "you're just as guilty of the same offenses of which you accuse us Muslims" smear is going to find any traction with me.  The difference between you and me is that you actually justify your religion's persecution of others.

I thnk I've made it more than clear that I support a martial stance on warfare because it is the only acceptable stance, not because any one else does the same. This is not something I deny ot try to cover.
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« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2010, 05:37:59 AM »


Same here. So I guess we agree. you wouldn't agree to take a middle path between the divinity and non-divinity of Christ just because Arians live among you. You also wouldn't let them preach their doctrines. AndI'm not even going to touch on the fact that you've physically persecuted them and all other 'heretics'.

You have committed the logical fallacy of false analogy. Struggling a heresy within a faith is not the same as politically attacking and subjugating the members of other faiths.

Arianism was a threat from within. It did not want to co-exist with Christianity, but tried to replace it. Would Christians preach another form of Islam if they were allowed under Sharia?  Grin

Was Arianism going to be tolerated and allowed to spread among Christians has it declared itself a separate religion?

There's hardly any difference between limiting a different religion or just a sect from the same religion. You have the Orthodox doctrine which you consider to be the only valid from of religion, so you supress heretical Christian sects so they wouldn't spread their false doctrines. One who claims that such thing is acceptable would fail to argue why suppressing an entirely different religion, which is most likely more false and more destructive than the heretical sect, is unacceptable.

Luckily for you, your ancestors found both to be unacceptable, so they fought Pagans, Zoroastrians and Muslims.
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« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2010, 06:15:20 AM »

There's hardly any difference between limiting a different religion or just a sect from the same religion. You have the Orthodox doctrine which you consider to be the only valid from of religion, so you supress heretical Christian sects so they wouldn't spread their false doctrines. One who claims that such thing is acceptable would fail to argue why suppressing an entirely different religion, which is most likely more false and more destructive than the heretical sect, is unacceptable.
It's about maintaining the integrity of the message of Jesus Christ. If one who is not a Christian says, "Christ says this," it doesn't really affect us, because he is not one of us, and his message will most likely fall on deaf ears. Occasionally one like Dan Brown must be refuted, because he claimed (yes, in fiction, but many believed the fiction to be fact) that Christ said and did things He never said nor did. Really, though, it's the Christians we need to correct, because by virtue of their being part of Christianity they have authority on the teachings and beliefs of Christianity. Others look to them for guidance, so we must ensure that they guide others to correct belief and practice. As Bishop James stated in his Epistle, "We who teach will be judged more severely."
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« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2010, 06:30:43 AM »

There's hardly any difference between limiting a different religion or just a sect from the same religion. You have the Orthodox doctrine which you consider to be the only valid from of religion, so you supress heretical Christian sects so they wouldn't spread their false doctrines. One who claims that such thing is acceptable would fail to argue why suppressing an entirely different religion, which is most likely more false and more destructive than the heretical sect, is unacceptable.
It's about maintaining the integrity of the message of Jesus Christ. If one who is not a Christian says, "Christ says this," it doesn't really affect us, because he is not one of us, and his message will most likely fall on deaf ears. Occasionally one like Dan Brown must be refuted, because he claimed (yes, in fiction, but many believed the fiction to be fact) that Christ said and did things He never said nor did. Really, though, it's the Christians we need to correct, because by virtue of their being part of Christianity they have authority on the teachings and beliefs of Christianity. Others look to them for guidance, so we must ensure that they guide others to correct belief and practice. As Bishop James stated in his Epistle, "We who teach will be judged more severely."

We don't disagree there. Christian doctrines, even those who go against the principles of Islam, like the divinity of Jesus, are not included in the circle of limitations made in Christians under Islamic rule.
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« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2010, 06:33:27 AM »


I have some news for you, anything that is even remotely close to Christianity ceased to exist in the West at least three centuries a go. To say that Christians are tolerant because of what's happening in the West is like saying Muslims oppose the concept of religion because of atheist Albania back in the days.

Also, what we should do is completely and utterly irrelevant of what Christians or Westerners do.

Your response is irrelevant to mine. What some Christians did in the past was despite the statements of the Bible, but what Muslims do today is because of Islamic tenets.

As I said before, the New Testament has no verse that asks Christ's followers to conquer the whole world and subjugate the members of all the other faiths. Christ's kingdom is not of this world.


What you're talking about is egalitarianism which is an antonym of justice not a synonym. It is only due to the anti-Christian ideas of the "Enlightenment" that I alluded to in the previous paragraph that people would mistake justice with equality and vice versa.

Didn't you say that the victorious ones can impose limitations? Rich people had the upper hand and reigned in full glory. They also let the slaves co-exist with them although with limitations. (You consider such conditions a must).

People like you mistake limitations for justice.


The evil stature given to the Pharaoh in the bible is not due to him persecuting the believers but to be presented as an archetype of disbelieve (kufr). Believe it or not, the bible is not a book for whining, it is a book for teaching.

I am not talking about the Bible or the Qur'an now. (Actually, the Qur'an says Fir'avne became haughty in the land and started to oppress the Israelites. You should read your scripture more carefully.) Your interpretation presents Pharaoh as a just person who allowed the Israelites to co-exist with his people through some limitations.

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« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2010, 06:43:36 AM »

There's hardly any difference between limiting a different religion or just a sect from the same religion. You have the Orthodox doctrine which you consider to be the only valid from of religion, so you supress heretical Christian sects so they wouldn't spread their false doctrines. One who claims that such thing is acceptable would fail to argue why suppressing an entirely different religion, which is most likely more false and more destructive than the heretical sect, is unacceptable.

Hmmm. Who decides what is heretical and what is correct doctrine within Islam? Which of the many Islamic sects is the "truest" and "purest"? Each will proclaim his own sect to be the "true" Islamic faith while the others are heretics and infidels, and history shows that warfare and suppression between sects, each claiming superiority and "purity", continues to this day. To use a well-known Christian expression, take the log out of your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from your neighbor's eye.

Do not presume to lecture us when your Islamic house is no model of unity and "purity".
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« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2010, 06:48:43 AM »


There's hardly any difference between limiting a different religion or just a sect from the same religion. You have the Orthodox doctrine which you consider to be the only valid from of religion, so you supress heretical Christian sects so they wouldn't spread their false doctrines. One who claims that such thing is acceptable would fail to argue why suppressing an entirely different religion, which is most likely more false and more destructive than the heretical sect, is unacceptable.

Luckily for you, your ancestors found both to be unacceptable, so they fought Pagans, Zoroastrians and Muslims.

Is what mainstream Islam does to Islamic heresies equal to what Islam does to the People of the Book or other faiths? NO. Your argument falls apart so easily.

The Church declared a war on heresies because it was threatened by them. There was no reaction before there was a threat from within.

Islam declares a war on all religions although it is not threatened by them. Islam attacks and subjugates even before there is a threat from  without.

Are these identical?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2010, 06:49:34 AM »


Your response is irrelevant to mine. What some Christians did in the past was despite the statements of the Bible, but what Muslims do today is because of Islamic tenets.

As I said before, the New Testament has no verse that asks Christ's followers to conquer the whole world and subjugate the members of all the other faiths. Christ's kingdom is not of this world.


Of course, of course, what Christiand did when they had the upper hand on Muslims during the Reconquesta, the Cursades and in Kosovo was against Christian teachings. Also, Christians been given the right to exist and worship by Muslims throughout history was against Islamic teaching, because Islam teaches us to kill the infiels wherever we find them, Je suis recht? Also, the ethnic tensions in Egypt which you love to talk about is because of Islam if Muslims did something bad, but against Christians if Christians did something bad. If a deliquent Muslim baltagi, who drinks and never prays, raped a Christian firl, he did it because of Islam, because he made great research into the Religion, and found out that fornication is an obligation and it is a higher obligation than praying or abstaining from alchol and leading a good life.

This sounds very plausible indeed!

I'm beggin you, please, please, for the love of Christ, for the love of the virgin Mary don't accuse people like that, fear your creator in what you say, there will come a day when you will face Him.


Quote
Didn't you say that the victorious ones can impose limitations? Rich people had the upper hand and reigned in full glory. They also let the slaves co-exist with them although with limitations. (You consider such conditions a must).

People like you mistake limitations for justice.

I never said that anyone who ever had the higher hand is right. What I said is that, de facto, when two opposed doctrines co-exist, and when no reconciliation is possible, the victorious one remians while the defeated is conditioned until the opposition is gone.


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I am not talking about the Bible or the Qur'an now. (Actually, the Qur'an says Fir'avne became haughty in the land and started to oppress the Israelites. You should read your scripture more carefully.) Your interpretation presents Pharaoh as a just person who allowed the Israelites to co-exist with his people through some limitations.

I'm not saying that there were no persecution, I'm saying that the persecution per se was not the point of the story.
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« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2010, 06:54:33 AM »

There's hardly any difference between limiting a different religion or just a sect from the same religion. You have the Orthodox doctrine which you consider to be the only valid from of religion, so you supress heretical Christian sects so they wouldn't spread their false doctrines. One who claims that such thing is acceptable would fail to argue why suppressing an entirely different religion, which is most likely more false and more destructive than the heretical sect, is unacceptable.

Hmmm. Who decides what is heretical and what is correct doctrine within Islam? Which of the many Islamic sects is the "truest" and "purest"? Each will proclaim his own sect to be the "true" Islamic faith while the others are heretics and infidels, and history shows that warfare and suppression between sects, each claiming superiority and "purity", continues to this day. To use a well-known Christian expression, take the log out of your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from your neighbor's eye.

I didn't talk about that to criticize it, quite the contrary.

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Do not presume to lecture us when your Islamic house is no model of unity and "purity".

Alhamdulilla, up to 90% of the Muslim population follow Islam according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of Nation's scholars, this is even though there were never a central religious authority and hardly a central temporal power, alhamdulillah again.
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« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2010, 07:02:14 AM »

Islam declares a war on all religions although it is not threatened by them. Islam attacks and subjugates even before there is a threat from  without.

As you would, hopefull but doubtfully, recognize, Islam gives the freedom of worship to different religious groups. Our war, however, is with the temporal power of these religious groups. It would be way, way beyond naivety to think that Meccan pagans would've tolerated the Islamic state in Medina and not attacked, the same things about the Byzantine and Persian empires. This is even if we were to make the false and absurd assumption that it is a good idea to remain in the original area where the state was formed and not attempt at growing beyond it.

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« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2010, 07:25:55 AM »


Of course, of course, what Christiand did when they had the upper hand on Muslims during the Reconquesta, the Cursades and in Kosovo was against Christian teachings. Also, Christians been given the right to exist and worship by Muslims throughout history was against Islamic teaching, because Islam teaches us to kill the infiels wherever we find them, Je suis recht? Also, the ethnic tensions in Egypt which you love to talk about is because of Islam if Muslims did something bad, but against Christians if Christians did something bad. If a deliquent Muslim baltagi, who drinks and never prays, raped a Christian firl, he did it because of Islam, because he made great research into the Religion, and found out that fornication is an obligation and it is a higher obligation than praying or abstaining from alchol and leading a good life.

This sounds very plausible indeed!

You are confusing politics with religion now.


I never said that anyone who ever had the higher hand is right. What I said is that, de facto, when two opposed doctrines co-exist, and when no reconciliation is possible, the victorious one remians while the defeated is conditioned until the opposition is gone.

Islam makes the reconciliation impossible from the start! It attacks and subjugates. How can you talk about reconciliation in that case?

I never said that anyone who ever had the higher hand is right. What I said is that, de facto, when two opposed doctrines co-exist, and when no reconciliation is possible, the victorious one remians while the defeated is conditioned until the opposition is gone.


This was not the point of my post. What I mean is your approach to the issue of co-existence and limitation would justify even Pharaoh's acts.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #105 on: July 12, 2010, 07:59:02 AM »


You are confusing politics with religion now.


No, there's no confusion. The Islamic position on nonbelievers is clear, they are given the right to worship while remaining under firm grip. The firmness of the grip depends on the opinion of each scholar, but the general rule remains.

The Christians position vague. Sometimes, especially when they are in power, they consider it to be a Christian position to persecute everyone and not give them even the right to exist, in other times, especially when they are not in power, they claim pacifism.

In practise, however, Christian have been times more cruel to Muslims when they were able to do so than the other way around.

It takes a fool to deny this.


Islam makes the reconciliation impossible from the start! It attacks and subjugates. How can you talk about reconciliation in that case?

I didn't say the reconciliation is always possible. If there's two groups who live in the same village, one of the two thinks that democracy is the only acceptable governing system, the other thinks the same about aristocracy. there is absolutely no way to re conciliate the two groups, that is, there's no way both aristocracy and democracy can be considered the only acceptable governing system and thus practised. One will inevitably, through any mean, overpower the other which means that either democracy or aristocracy will be practised, if the other group opinion was not conditioned, they will fight the practised governing system, so the other group will fight back. This will continue until the inevitable balance takes place, which can be done in various way; Either by killing the opponents, kicking them out of the village, putting them in jail, or, if the victorious group is generous, it would grant them the right to practise their governing system withing a small group in their internal affairs, as long as they would not try to intervene in the general governing issues of the village as a whole. Naturally, since the defeated group thinks the victorious governing system to be false and destructive, and because they would take any chance they have to destroy it, the victorious group would try to win as much as possible from the loosing group to their side to enlighten them and to limit the danger, and they would always keep an eye on the remaining individuals.

I think this long block of text says everyhting that can be said about the subject.

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« Reply #106 on: July 12, 2010, 08:37:30 AM »


No, there's no confusion. The Islamic position on nonbelievers is clear, they are given the right to worship while remaining under firm grip. The firmness of the grip depends on the opinion of each scholar, but the general rule remains.


The Christians position vague. Sometimes, especially when they are in power, they consider it to be a Christian position to persecute everyone and not give them even the right to exist, in other times, especially when they are not in power, they claim pacifism.

It is interesting that you compare Islam with Christians now.

Christianity does not ask the spread of faith with sword, nor does it aspire a worldy religious kingdom that stipulates the subjugation of other faiths. Your comparison is false again.


In practise, however, Christian have been times more cruel to Muslims when they were able to do so than the other way around.

It takes a fool to deny this.

This will by no means justify the aggressive ideal of Islam though. The so-called divine commandment to attack and humiliate non-Muslims occurs only in the Islamic scripture, not in the Bible.

I didn't say the reconciliation is always possible. If there's two groups who live in the same village, one of the two thinks that democracy is the only acceptable governing system, the other thinks the same about aristocracy. there is absolutely no way to re conciliate the two groups, that is, there's no way both aristocracy and democracy can be considered the only acceptable governing system and thus practised. One will inevitably, through any mean, overpower the other which means that either democracy or aristocracy will be practised, if the other group opinion was not conditioned, they will fight the practised governing system, so the other group will fight back. This will continue until the inevitable balance takes place, which can be done in various way; Either by killing the opponents, kicking them out of the village, putting them in jail, or, if the victorious group is generous, it would grant them the right to practise their governing system withing a small group in their internal affairs, as long as they would not try to intervene in the general governing issues of the village as a whole. Naturally, since the defeated group thinks the victorious governing system to be false and destructive, and because they would take any chance they have to destroy it, the victorious group would try to win as much as possible from the loosing group to their side to enlighten them and to limit the danger, and they would always keep an eye on the remaining individuals.

I think this long block of text says everyhting that can be said about the subject.



This example is irrelevant to our discussion. It is about the villagers living in the same place and having equal terms for a time. Islam comes later from without with the sole purpose of subjugation.
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« Reply #107 on: July 12, 2010, 08:49:11 AM »

This example is irrelevant to our discussion. It is about the villagers living in the same place and having equal terms for a time. Islam comes later from without with the sole purpose of subjugation.

The example was for the co-existence. as for the conquering process, please see reply #103 in this thread.

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« Reply #108 on: July 12, 2010, 09:08:32 AM »

For example, in Islam, we reject democracy because we are not blinded by the dogma which states that men are equal and that a mass of these supposed equals is capable of making sound decision beyond individualistic, profan and carnal desires.

You believe that it is not true that all people are equal or created equal?  If that is the case, persons are in a superior positions and who are inferior, in your opinion?  What makes one to rise? Education?  Social Status?  

Quote

There are also other cultures where it is acceptable to go around naked, should we say that that is acceptable. I'm sure they had soething like that in Ethiopia, was Christianity wrong for changing it?

How is uncovered hair the equivalent of nudity? Why is the dictate of one culture the only "right" one?  Can you give any real citation or information as to your assertion on Ethiopia?  

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Well, scarves are not required per se, the essential is to cover the hair.

Why?  

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I'd rather lithurgical music to be frozen in time than to change according to what's fashionable.

"Fashionable"?  Societies change over time.  Music has changed as polyphony and harmony and new instruments come into being.  Music can be a personal taste.  Who are you or anyone to tell someone that they aren't allowed something harmless because you don't like it?

On another note: You have stated that you disapprove of the "Enlightenment".  Just so that one may understand. What do you mean by the term and what results do you think came from it that are bad?


I have asked you several questions that so far you have not answered.  

What personal experience have you had with Christians?  
Have you ever been part of a Christian worship service and if so what Church?
On what do you base your OP imagined tale?

Ebor


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« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2010, 09:35:14 AM »

This example is irrelevant to our discussion. It is about the villagers living in the same place and having equal terms for a time. Islam comes later from without with the sole purpose of subjugation.

The example was for the co-existence. as for the conquering process, please see reply #103 in this thread.



Thanks for agreeing that conquest and co-existence are not associated.  Wink
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« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2010, 09:43:45 AM »


There were no advancement in education whatsoever, their was  a regression to be more precise. Everything other than physical, natural knowledge has been denied and disregarded as either unnecessary or baseless and erroneous. And the former knowledge, the physical one, has been blown out of propotion and was given a higher stature than its actually stature as purely utilitarian science.

Sure more people can read and write now than before, but how many Aristotles, Aquinas and Imam Ghazalis has the "Enlightenment" begotten, zero. All the great minds who existed after that dreadful movement, existed against it and in spite of it.

"Everything has been denied and disregarded"?   Huh  Can you give some examples please as this sweeping statement is just as unrecognizable as your imaginary Jesus.  Can you state plainly and specifically some things that you don't like about the "Enlightenment"?   

Are you specifically looking only for philosophers as the mark of a good result?     

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Muslims also had to pay the Zakat. But you must see things in prespective. What we're dealing with is a theolcratic state that is hosting a people which not only considers the religion of their hosts to be false, they also would take any chanse they get to destroy them (sorry, but that's true).

I find your phrasing to be intriguing.  I can see that you are putting this in a perspective that you like.  The "theocratic state" is "hosting" a people.  That word sounds like treating someone as a guest rather than a conquered population under an invader's rule. 

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Allow me to give you a parable of the situation back then; It's like the United States allowing groups to be hardcore communists on its soild during the fifties and the sixties, with organizations and meetings and all. The reality is, the United States didn't just disallow communist groups from existing, it has prosecuted every individual who showed any sign of communism.

Your "parable"/example here is not true.  There is an American Communist Party in existence right now.
http://www.cpusa.org/

Have you been to the United States in person?  On what are you basing your assumptions and opinions?

They are not "Prosecuted" or do you mean "persecuted"?

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Let me tell you this, paying a higher tax than the local population is much, much, much more fair than you can ever imagine.

Since you are not the one subject to it, how would you know?  What of the other strictures such as taking of children and slaves and in Egypt the prevention of the Copts from building or maintaining churches, the kidnapping of young women and other evil acts
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3507
http://www.nysun.com/foreign/coptic-christians-voicing-frustration-with-white/86971/



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And would Jesus approve of the sentencing in the case in Iran at the moment of Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani who was to be stoned to death on a charge of adultery until the last day or so?
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/09/world/la-fg-iran-stoning-20100710

He would probably not like it because the sentence was not carried due to to heathens' pressure. After all, stoning the adulterous is a clear biblical punishment.


You really think and believe that the One who told the woman taken in Adultery to "Go and sin no more" after telling her accusers "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" at which all of them left in shame would want a human being stoned to death??

Have you read any of the Gospels in their entirety? 


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Or of the woman in Nigeria eight years ago who said she was raped but the court said she was guilty of adultery and should be stoned to death but was spared after an international outcry?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/muslim-woman-spared-death-by-stoning-in-nigeria-655429.html

I don't know about that specific case, but probably everyone who was sentenced to death has claimed innocence at a point or an other. Even people who are fined 10 Euros for failing to observe the road lie claim innocence even though they are 100% sure that they are guilty, they are even willing to delay the policeman for ten minutes trying to argue themselves out of the fine. Things like this just happen.

It's certainly unfortunate that there are innocent people who are killed, jailed or fined, but it's an inevitable aspect of justice.

Easy to say when you're not the one being killed or jailed.  What of the case that a woman's testimony is not equal to that of a man's according to some in Islam?  You are willing to discount this woman's claim and say it's merely "unfortunate" if she were stoned to death but innocent? 

10 Euros isn't the same as death and a death that is barbaric.


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Or would Jesus agree with honor killings of women and girls?  These are not unknown or hard to find, but are reported.

As for that, it's not as common as you think it is, and it is by no means exclusive to Muslims.

Even one "honor killing" is too many.  These are real human beings created by God. 

Ebor
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« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2010, 09:54:17 AM »

Quote from: Ebor link=topic=28652.msg452115#msg452115

"The only thing that saved Christianity"?  May I ask on what you base this assertion please?  Also, there are plenty of "central Christian figures" who do not have swords.  In the case of St. George he was a solder.  The history of pacifism in Christianity is complicated and not a binary all-or-nothing situation.

I base it on the fact that Christianity would've been destroyed have it not been employing armies and war to both protect it self and to propagate the religion.

To be a little humorous, I must say that we would've loved it if Christians were really pacifists, then there would be no more than a few communities of Christians scattered in Europe and the near East among predominantly Muslim societies. The entire population which is Christian now in America, Africa and Asia would've also been Muslim. But, alas :-)

That is not a "fact" but your personal opinion.  Can you tell us on what historical readings you base it on please?


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Fighing someone doesn't necessarily mean that you hate him. You can fight a people out of love as to bring them salvation.

What is "Love" to you?  And what of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?  Those are the words of Jesus and you claim to esteem him as a Prophet. 

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And when I say Prophet's, I mean all of those you believe in. A lot of the Prophets were leaders of states and had armies and they fought wars and killed people, those who didn't didn't do so because they held pacifist stances but rather because they couldn't so mainly due to lack of followship. (e.g. Noah)

Meaning no disrespect, but how do you know what ones I "believe in"?  Why can you not answer with examples.  Which prophets were leaders of states with armies?  You've mentioned Moses and David, though I'm not sure how the latter was a prophet. Who do you think were prophets?

Ebor
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« Reply #112 on: July 12, 2010, 09:56:49 AM »

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.


"Purity of the religion"?  covered hair and prayers in a foreign language?  What do you think Christianity was in the early societies please?
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« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2010, 10:00:59 AM »

You believe that it is not true that all people are equal or created equal?  If that is the case, persons are in a superior positions and who are inferior, in your opinion?  What makes one to rise? Education?  Social Status?  

People are not equal, neither in potential nor in manifestation, this is a simple fact. And the human qualities, both metaphysical and physical shine so brightly that they can hardly be hidden, and which one must spend an enormous effort to hide them if he wanted to (e.g. a lot of master Sufis who have chosen to withdraw instead to use their knowledge and teach a maximum number of people, like sidi Abdeslam ben Mchich.


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How is uncovered hair the equivalent of nudity? Why is the dictate of one culture the only "right" one?  Can you give any real citation or information as to your assertion on Ethiopia?  

I didn't say they are equal, I was merely referring to the argument that a custom ought to be accepted simply by virtue of being a custom.

As for Ethiopia, I think there's a few Ethiopian in the forum, they would be more eligible to talk to you about how Christianity affected their culture and customs.


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Why?


Why must a Muslim or a Christian believe that women should cover their hair? Because the Quran and the Bible say so, and I give this answer even though I know it drives certain people mad. If you want me to give an explanation on why covering hair is a good thing from a purely social point of view, then I will try to, though I would like it if you didn't as it would very long and tyring to do so  Smiley

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On another note: You have stated that you disapprove of the "Enlightenment".  Just so that one may understand. What do you mean by the term and what results do you think came from it that are bad?

I mean by the term the humanist movement that appeared in Europe before the French Revolution and lead to it. And I think it was a destructive movement mainly because of its anti-normal, anti-Traditional basis represented in its humanism, which denies anything of supra-human nature. Something which had its most disastrous results, as far as the temporal world in concerned, in politics (democracy) and society (liberalism), both of which are baseless, erroneous, destructive and idolatrous.

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What personal experience have you had with Christians?  

None, really. I live in a +99% Muslim country. We get a lot of tourists and have some European living here.

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Have you ever been part of a Christian worship service and if so what Church?

No. We do have a big church right in the middle of the busiest section of it,  but I'm not sure they even hold a service in sundays anymore. Local associations use it for social activities most of the time.





BTW, the city is Tetouan in Northen Morocco.

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On what do you base your OP imagined tale?

The mosque half is from my own experience, and the Church half is from my what I've gathered from teh media and teh internet. I could be wrong though, but it's extremely unlikely.
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« Reply #114 on: July 12, 2010, 10:05:03 AM »

Yes, yes, yes, both Christian and Muslims are free to go to pray or not, to go to the mosque or the church or not,

How many churches are in Saudi Arabia?  There are plenty of imported workers who are Christian but they are not "free to go to the church" because there are none.

The "Religious Policeman" blog now in abeyance, has some interesting and documented information about life in Saudi Arabia. He dedicated it to the memory of "15 Makkah Schoolgirls, lost when their school burnt down on Monday, 11th March, 2002. The Religious Police would not allow them to leave the building, nor allow the Firemen to enter."

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

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« Reply #115 on: July 12, 2010, 10:08:35 AM »

Here's what essentially troubles me about the first post in this thread: Mekki's portrayal of mosque-attending Muslims as pious, upright fellows doesn't square at all with my experience over a broad swath of Africa and Asia. I travel most of the year, within the Muslim world and out of it, and I enjoy getting myself lost in various places and then staying with the random local people I encounter.

It is only within the Muslim world that young men, identifying themselves as devout, show me hardcore pornography on their mobile phones, giggle and say "Isn't this awesome?" In Egypt, I encountered a succession of men who were married and had imposed the dark prayer mark on their foreheads, but they went on and on about how great the local prostitutes were in their trips to Europe or Dubai. In Morocco I've been propositioned sexually by men, right after they've talked about how they make it to the mosque every Friday and their community is strong in its devotion. I've not yet been to Pakistan, but two friends who were recently there (traveling separately) got fed up of ostensibly Muslim locals they met constantly offering them boys for sex at some bargain price.

The West indeed faces challenges of public decency, but typically people who do creepy things like I've described above don't simultaneously profess Christian piety and rag on the Muslim world -- their worldview is essentially secular. Yet in my experience so many people in the Muslim world want to have it both ways, immersing themselves in filth but claiming their people is so pure compared to the corrupt West.
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« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2010, 10:12:04 AM »

Yes, yes, yes, both Christian and Muslims are free to go to pray or not, to go to the mosque or the church or not,

How many churches are in Saudi Arabia?  There are plenty of imported workers who are Christian but they are not "free to go to the church" because there are none.

The "Religious Policeman" blog now in abeyance, has some interesting and documented information about life in Saudi Arabia. He dedicated it to the memory of "15 Makkah Schoolgirls, lost when their school burnt down on Monday, 11th March, 2002. The Religious Police would not allow them to leave the building, nor allow the Firemen to enter."

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

Ebor

I was talking about Lebanon.
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« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2010, 10:25:40 AM »

Here's what essentially troubles me about the first post in this thread: Mekki's portrayal of mosque-attending Muslims as pious, upright fellows doesn't square at all with my experience over a broad swath of Africa and Asia. I travel most of the year, within the Muslim world and out of it, and I enjoy getting myself lost in various places and then staying with the random local people I encounter.

It is only within the Muslim world that young men, identifying themselves as devout, show me hardcore pornography on their mobile phones, giggle and say "Isn't this awesome?" In Egypt, I encountered a succession of men who were married and had imposed the dark prayer mark on their foreheads, but they went on and on about how great the local prostitutes were in their trips to Europe or Dubai. In Morocco I've been propositioned sexually by men, right after they've talked about how they make it to the mosque every Friday and their community is strong in its devotion. I've not yet been to Pakistan, but two friends who were recently there got fed up of Muslims they met offering them boys for sex at some bargain price.

The West indeed faces challenges of public decency, but typically people who do creepy things like I've described above don't simultaneously profess Christian piety and rag on the Muslim world -- their worldview is essentially secular. Yet in my experience so many people in the Muslim world want to have it both ways, immersing themselves in filth but claiming their people is so pure compared to the corrupt West.

Perhaps you are applying the Western definition of the world devout which is simply someone who believes in his religion and who's open to the idea of worshiping once in a while. This definition applies to just about every Muslims, and a lot of those are absolutely no where near being pious by any meaningful definition. Perhaps those people which come to the mosque everyday in great numbers and worship in extreme piety have porn in their phones or visit prostitutes or engage in sodomitical activities but none of that shows there.
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« Reply #118 on: July 12, 2010, 10:38:40 AM »

You believe that it is not true that all people are equal or created equal?  If that is the case, persons are in a superior positions and who are inferior, in your opinion?  What makes one to rise? Education?  Social Status?  

People are not equal, neither in potential nor in manifestation, this is a simple fact. And the human qualities, both metaphysical and physical shine so brightly that they can hardly be hidden, and which one must spend an enormous effort to hide them if he wanted to (e.g. a lot of master Sufis who have chosen to withdraw instead to use their knowledge and teach a maximum number of people, like sidi Abdeslam ben Mchich.

That is a general statement that people are different, but it does not answer my question. Perhaps I was not plain enough.

Do you believe that there are some particular groups or classes of Human Beings that are naturally superior or inferior?  What "human qualities" to you mean.  Many "qualities" may be hidden if the person who has them is not allowed by others to use them or improve them.  

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How is uncovered hair the equivalent of nudity? Why is the dictate of one culture the only "right" one?  Can you give any real citation or information as to your assertion on Ethiopia?  

I didn't say they are equal, I was merely referring to the argument that a custom ought to be accepted simply by virtue of being a custom.
[/quote]

And you believe that your preferred cultural customs are superior or ought to be imposed on others who do not share them?  Why should someone in China or Japan or the Pacific Islands accept your dictate that female hair must not be seen?


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If you want me to give an explanation on why covering hair is a good thing from a purely social point of view, then I will try to, though I would like it if you didn't as it would very long and tyring to do so  Smiley

I would like to know your reasons for this, yes.  Clear explanations can help in understanding another person's opinion even if one does not agree with it.


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I mean by the term the humanist movement that appeared in Europe before the French Revolution and lead to it. And I think it was a destructive movement mainly because of its anti-normal, anti-Traditional basis represented in its humanism, which denies anything of supra-human nature. Something which had its most disastrous results, as far as the temporal world in concerned, in politics (democracy) and society (liberalism), both of which are baseless, erroneous, destructive and idolatrous.

What have you read on the subject that you think this?  You don't like democracy, you've said.  Do you personally have a vote in your country? Who do you think is unworthy of having a voice in the public venue?  What does "liberalism" mean to you and what do you find objectionable in it?  Again, understanding what other people mean when they use certain terms can help in understanding.


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What personal experience have you had with Christians?  

None, really. I live in a +99% Muslim country. We get a lot of tourists and have some European living here.

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Have you ever been part of a Christian worship service and if so what Church?

No. We do have a big church right in the middle of the busiest section of it,  but I'm not sure they even hold a service in sundays anymore. Local associations use it for social activities most of the time.

Considering the recent expulsion of a number of Christians from Morocco, there might not be many who could attend.  
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/new.wave.of.christian.expulsions.from.morocco/25945.htm
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704911704575327310647304110.html

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On what do you base your OP imagined tale?

The mosque half is from my own experience, and the Church half is from my what I've gathered from teh media and teh internet. I could be wrong though, but it's extremely unlikely.


As people here have been trying to tell you, you are wrong.  You have asserted that your "Christians" in your OP, which are products of your imagination based on what you have read, are what is real.  They aren't.   You have said that Christianity is like that when you don't any real sincere Christians.  You have not based them on any real people but on what you choose to read on the 'Net and what the media puts out.  Someone could write the same sort of piece about Muslims drawing on what he/she had 'gathered from the media and the internet" without any first-hand knowledge of real human beings who happen to be Muslim and make your particular faith look terrible.  Would you object and say that it isn't true that it's not real Islam?  

If people provided information and links to counter your OP would you read them or would you dismiss them as not true without looking?

With respect,

Ebor

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« Reply #119 on: July 12, 2010, 10:43:46 AM »


I have some news for you, anything that is even remotely close to Christianity ceased to exist in the West at least three centuries a go.

This is an example of your opinion about Christianity that you have admitted is based on limited knowledge and none of it first-hand or personal.
 
What are things that are "close to" or were Christianity three hundred years ago that aren't existing now, please?  Can you give concrete examples of what you think?

Thank you in advance.



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« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2010, 11:01:08 AM »

Do you believe that there are some particular groups or classes of Human Beings that are naturally superior or inferior?  What "human qualities" to you mean.  Many "qualities" may be hidden if the person who has them is not allowed by others to use them or improve them.  

Sure, scholars are superior to laymen in intellectual matters, hand workers are stronger than other people in physical power. If you're speaking in terms of ethnic groups, then the answer is the same, yes. Eastern Asians are superior when it comes to absorbing technical knowledge, sub-saharian Africans are superior in physical strength, and European are superior in physical beauty (save that talk about relativity, they are).

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And you believe that your preferred cultural customs are superior or ought to be imposed on others who do not share them?  Why should someone in China or Japan or the Pacific Islands accept your dictate that female hair must not be seen?


Because the consensus of the Nation's scholars, who know theReligion better than them, is that the hair is to be covered, this is of course of these Chinese or Japanese embrace Islam. Otherwise, you're question is irrelevant.


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I would like to know your reasons for this, yes.  Clear explanations can help in understanding another person's opinion even if one does not agree with it.


I'll try to answer this later when I have more time and energy.


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What have you read on the subject that you think this?  

I'm quite familiar with the literature of the "Enlightenment", e.g. Rousseau, Montesquieu, Voltaire et cetera. I'm also familiar with the counter-Enlightenment literature like that of Julius Evola and Rene Guenon.

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You don't like democracy, you've said.  Do you personally have a vote in your country?

Yes, I do have a vote, but I don't use and I'm not planning to change that in the future.

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Who do you think is unworthy of having a voice in the public venue?

Anyone who's not versed in the mater in which he will give his voice and who's likely to be basing hisdecision on his most individualistic profane desires. The general populace in its entirety falls into this category.


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What does "liberalism" mean to you and what do you find objectionable in it?

Liberalism is basing state and society on the attempt of giving the population the maximum number of freedoms and satisfying the maximum number of their desires. My objection is that there much more consideration to take when building state and society, neglecting all by the two I've mentioned is grave unjustice and it leads to chaos in all fields. Besides, the human desires can never be satisfied, and the hard fact is that, even if were to make the false assumption that happiness can be the raison d'etere of state and society, people are not any happier if you satisfied more of their desires, quite the opposite.




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« Reply #121 on: July 12, 2010, 11:01:59 AM »


I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.

You must have never visited an Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #122 on: July 12, 2010, 11:07:00 AM »

Alhamdulilla, up to 90% of the Muslim population follow Islam according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of Nation's scholars, this is even though there were never a central religious authority and hardly a central temporal power, alhamdulillah again.


Yet there also Shi'ite (with sub-groups) and Ammaddiya Muslims and Sufis and Kharijites and some smaller groups.  So there is disagreement on various aspects of the religion.  

However, where I live there is much co-existence.  In my part of the county there are three mosques: Sunni, Shi'ite and Ammaddiya.  The first is next to an EO church.  The Shi'ite mosque has done work for the disadvantaged in a group with people from a Jewish congregation and a Presbyterian church. It is possible when people are respected and treated as one would like to be.

Ebor
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« Reply #123 on: July 12, 2010, 11:47:16 AM »

and please don't bring forward historical events

Oh please, by all means, let's ignore history.   Roll Eyes

I have no doubt you would like to ignore thirteen centuries of inhumane treatment and atrocities and instead concentrate on your fairy tale like ideal of Islam.  Our families, however, have had to live the reality.
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« Reply #124 on: July 12, 2010, 12:03:26 PM »



Considering the recent expulsion of a number of Christians from Morocco, there might not be many who could attend.  



Interesting theory, very interesting! But it's impossible for a multitude of reasons:

1) none of those deportions were recorded in my city.
2) Even if these were one that didn't make it to the news, the number of the deported individuals cannever affect the number of possible service attendants as a huge number of Westerners flock to the city and the neighbouring beaches as tourist, besides the good number of Europeans (mostly Spanish and French) who live here.
3) Those deported people are always Evangelical, whereas the Church is Catholic.


Still interesting nevertheless, I applaud you for it.
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« Reply #125 on: July 12, 2010, 12:04:59 PM »

Alhamdulilla, up to 90% of the Muslim population follow Islam according to the Sunna of the Prophet and the consensus of Nation's scholars, this is even though there were never a central religious authority and hardly a central temporal power, alhamdulillah again.


Yet there also Shi'ite (with sub-groups) and Ammaddiya Muslims and Sufis and Kharijites and some smaller groups.  So there is disagreement on various aspects of the religion.  

However, where I live there is much co-existence.  In my part of the county there are three mosques: Sunni, Shi'ite and Ammaddiya.  The first is next to an EO church.  The Shi'ite mosque has done work for the disadvantaged in a group with people from a Jewish congregation and a Presbyterian church. It is possible when people are respected and treated as one would like to be.

Ebor

Taçawwuf is part of Traditional, Orthodox Islam. Other than that, all of those people are among the remaining 10% alhamdulillah.
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« Reply #126 on: July 12, 2010, 12:06:14 PM »

and please don't bring forward historical events

Oh please, by all means, let's ignore history.   Roll Eyes

I have no doubt you would like to ignore thirteen centuries of inhumane treatment and atrocities and instead concentrate on your fairy tale like ideal of Islam.  Our families, however, have had to live the reality.

Reread the post you've quoted from, it has everything that can be said about the subject.
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« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2010, 12:34:04 PM »

and please don't bring forward historical events

Oh please, by all means, let's ignore history.   Roll Eyes

I have no doubt you would like to ignore thirteen centuries of inhumane treatment and atrocities and instead concentrate on your fairy tale like ideal of Islam.  Our families, however, have had to live the reality.

Reread the post you've quoted from, it has everything that can be said about the subject.


OK, here's your post:


Quote
If by prosecuting, you mean putting limitations one a person, then yes, indeed, Islam prosecutes Christians as it prosecutes Muslims and everyone else for putting limitation on a the life of the populace is the very definition of the law.

Really?  If I understand you correctly, you are saying that historically in Islamic countries Christians and Muslims have the same restrictions.  Is that correct?

Are you saying that in Islamic countries Muslims, like Christians, had to have their young daughters forcibly taken from their homes to be sold as concubines?  Are you saying that Muslims, like Christians, were forbidden from riding on horses?  Are you saying that Muslims, like Christians, had to dress differently, or had to be tattooed to be easily identified on the street?  Are you saying that Muslims, like Christians, could not convert anyone to their religion?  Are you saying that Muslims, like Christians, had their testimony in court considered invalid because of their religion?

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However, if by prosecution you mean preventing them from worship, then that is not Islamic and if anyone did it then he was acting against the Law. In the overwhelming majority of the time, Christians got a more than fair (I insist on it) treatment considering their situation, and please don't bring forward historical events, I've said the majority of the time and you know it's true.

My mother's uncle had his throat slit in front of his family because he refused to convert to Islam.

I'm afraid your idea and my idea of fair treatment are a little different.
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« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2010, 12:47:16 PM »


Really?  If I understand you correctly, you are saying that historically in Islamic countries Christians and Muslims have the same restrictions.  Is that correct?


No, you didn't understand me correctly. The limitations on each group are different.

P.S.: I meant persecution every time I said prosection.


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My mother's uncle had his throat slit in front of his family because he refused to convert to Islam.


Such thing would be unfortunate and against the Shari'a. But I don't believe you.
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« Reply #129 on: July 12, 2010, 01:13:17 PM »


Really?  If I understand you correctly, you are saying that historically in Islamic countries Christians and Muslims have the same restrictions.  Is that correct?


No, you didn't understand me correctly. The limitations on each group are different.

Thank you for clarifying.  That's precisely what I thought.  "Different limitations" is a nice way of putting it.  In other words:

Limitation put on Christians:  Could have daughters forcibly taken from homes
 
Limitation put on Muslims:  Could buy and rape Christian girls

Limitation put on Christians:  Could not ride on horses

Limitation put on Muslims:  Could ride on horses

Limitation put on Christians:  Had to dress or be tattooed in a way that identified them

Limitations put on Muslims:  Did not have to dress or be tattooed in a way that identified them

Limitations put on Christians:  Could not convert anyone to their religion

Limitations put on Muslims:  Could convert anyone they wanted.  If Christians could not pay their taxes, they could give the Christians the choice between converting to Islam, or dying, or being sold.

Limitations put on Christians:  Testimony in court not valid

Limitations put on Muslims:  Testimony in court valid.  (That way, any court case, civil or criminal, involving both a Muslim and a Christian would always come out in favor of the Muslim.)


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My mother's uncle had his throat slit in front of his family because he refused to convert to Islam.


Such thing would be unfortunate and against the Shari'a. But I don't believe you.


It happened, but it doesn't surprise me that you don't believe it.  You'd rather believe your fairy tale version of Islam, and not be bothered by "historical events."

And if it's against the Shari'a, why haven't any Muslim nations condemned the Armenian Genocide?  A number of nations have gone on record to condemn it, and none of them are Muslim.  Perhaps killing Christians is not so against the Shari'a.
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« Reply #130 on: July 12, 2010, 01:26:34 PM »

Thank you for clarifying.  That's precisely what I thought.  "Different limitations" is a nice way of putting it.  In other words:

Limitation put on Christians:  Could have daughters forcibly taken from homes
 
Limitation put on Muslims:  Could buy and Christian girls

Limitation put on Christians:  Could not ride on horses

Limitation put on Muslims:  Could ride on horses

Limitation put on Christians:  Had to dress or be tattooed in a way that identified them

Limitations put on Muslims:  Did not have to dress or be tattooed in a way that identified them

Limitations put on Christians:  Could not convert anyone to their religion

Limitations put on Muslims:  Could convert anyone they wanted.  If Christians could not pay their taxes, they could give the Christians the choice between converting to Islam, or dying, or being sold.

Limitations put on Christians:  Testimony in court not valid

Limitations put on Muslims:  Testimony in court valid.  (That way, any court case, civil or criminal, involving both a Muslim and a Christian would always come out in favor of the Muslim.)


[I fixed the list for you [toke rape off]

You're just repeating theire what I've said; The limitations on each group are different.

You have given 5 limitations which are made on Christians but not Muslims. I'll give you 5 ones which are made on Muslims but not on Christian andI'll add one more just for you: Jihad, not drinking wine or making it, not eating swine or raising it, not wearing silk and gold for men, observing Ramadan and going to the Friday prayer.


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« Reply #131 on: July 12, 2010, 01:36:01 PM »


[I fixed the list for you [toke rape off]

You're just repeating theire what I've said; The limitations on each group are different.


OK.  So we are getting somewhere.  You agree with all I said above, except that the young girls who were forcibly taken from their homes and then bought as concubines were raped by their owners.  Are you asserting that those girls all gave themselves willingly to their owners, or are you saying that as a legal matter, the sexual relations between an owner and slave are by definition not "rape" regardless of whether the slave is willing?
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« Reply #132 on: July 12, 2010, 01:38:44 PM »

You have given 5 limitations which are made on Christians but not Muslims. I'll give you 5 ones which are made on Muslims but not on Christian andI'll add one more just for you: Jihad, not drinking wine or making it, not eating swine or raising it, not wearing silk and gold for men, observing Ramadan and going to the Friday prayer.

Would you be willing to trade limitations?  Would you be willing to have your daughters dragged from your homes, and your testimony in court invalidated, in exchange for the ability to drink wine and eat pork?

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« Reply #133 on: July 12, 2010, 03:39:21 PM »

Thank you for clarifying.  That's precisely what I thought.  "Different limitations" is a nice way of putting it.  In other words:

Limitation put on Christians:  Could have daughters forcibly taken from homes
 
Limitation put on Muslims:  Could buy and Christian girls

Limitation put on Christians:  Could not ride on horses

Limitation put on Muslims:  Could ride on horses

Limitation put on Christians:  Had to dress or be tattooed in a way that identified them

Limitations put on Muslims:  Did not have to dress or be tattooed in a way that identified them

Limitations put on Christians:  Could not convert anyone to their religion

Limitations put on Muslims:  Could convert anyone they wanted.  If Christians could not pay their taxes, they could give the Christians the choice between converting to Islam, or dying, or being sold.

Limitations put on Christians:  Testimony in court not valid

Limitations put on Muslims:  Testimony in court valid.  (That way, any court case, civil or criminal, involving both a Muslim and a Christian would always come out in favor of the Muslim.)


[I fixed the list for you [toke rape off]
And what gives you the right to do that just because you don't believe her?  Such altering of someone else's words is usually considered rude in the extreme.
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« Reply #134 on: July 13, 2010, 02:20:08 AM »


[I fixed the list for you [toke rape off]

You're just repeating theire what I've said; The limitations on each group are different.


OK.  So we are getting somewhere.  You agree with all I said above, except that the young girls who were forcibly taken from their homes and then bought as concubines were raped by their owners.  Are you asserting that those girls all gave themselves willingly to their owners, or are you saying that as a legal matter, the sexual relations between an owner and slave are by definition not "rape" regardless of whether the slave is willing?

Slaves are not to be taken from dhimmi people, taking boys for the army might be an exception, but I don't regard it as enslavement. But for girls, they are not taken from protected people.

You have given 5 limitations which are made on Christians but not Muslims. I'll give you 5 ones which are made on Muslims but not on Christian andI'll add one more just for you: Jihad, not drinking wine or making it, not eating swine or raising it, not wearing silk and gold for men, observing Ramadan and going to the Friday prayer.

Would you be willing to trade limitations?  Would you be willing to have your daughters dragged from your homes, and your testimony in court invalidated, in exchange for the ability to drink wine and eat pork?



The limitations are different and they are more strict on Christians for a very good reason. It is Christian, not Muslims, who would hate the Islamic state however nice it would be to them as they believe that its very basis is false and evil. Most importantly, it's them who would rejoice at the fall of the Islamic rule and actively work for it if they had the chance (like they with the Ottoman state). Not only that, they also hope for the day Islam would disappear from the face of the Earth.
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« Reply #135 on: July 13, 2010, 02:37:50 AM »

By the way, Salpy, I apologize for saying that I don't believe you like that. It's not that I think you're lying, it's just stories tend to be told different then how they happened, especially if the people telling the story had an interest in changing them a bit, as in smearing a people that they despise.

The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?
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« Reply #136 on: July 13, 2010, 03:20:27 AM »


The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?

This is another Islamic lie.

How could the Ottomans not force Christians to convert despite the limitations they put on them? Those very limitations (particularly the high taxes Christians were made to pay because of their faith) meant to convert people to Islam.
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« Reply #137 on: July 13, 2010, 03:27:37 AM »


The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?

This is another Islamic lie.

How could the Ottomans not force Christians to convert despite the limitations they put on them? Those very limitations (particularly the high taxes Christians were made to pay because of their faith) meant to convert people to Islam.



I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.
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« Reply #138 on: July 13, 2010, 03:37:05 AM »


I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

It is not a claim, but a fact. Ottomans were afraid of the Armenian population in the eastern part of the Empire and conducted genocide on them, using the war as a pretext.
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« Reply #139 on: July 13, 2010, 03:40:17 AM »


I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

It is not a claim, but a fact. Ottomans were afraid of the Armenian population in the eastern part of the Empire and conducted genocide on them, using the war as a pretext.

I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.
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« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2010, 03:58:03 AM »


I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.

You were argumentative as you used the word CLAIM in your message.

I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

See?  Who is blind here? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #141 on: July 13, 2010, 04:09:36 AM »


I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.

You were argumentative as you used the word CLAIM in your message.

I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

See?  Who is blind here? Roll Eyes


First of all, when I said claim, I wasn't refering to the kiilling itself, but that the reason behind it being an attempt to convert the man. Both are in fact claims, as every statement is a claim, whether or not it's true is another story.

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« Reply #142 on: July 13, 2010, 04:22:54 AM »


First of all, when I said claim, I wasn't refering to the kiilling itself, but that the reason behind it being an attempt to convert the man. Both are in fact claims, as every statement is a claim, whether or not it's true is another story.

You said claim about SLAUGHTER.
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« Reply #143 on: July 13, 2010, 04:30:53 AM »


First of all, when I said claim, I wasn't refering to the kiilling itself, but that the reason behind it being an attempt to convert the man. Both are in fact claims, as every statement is a claim, whether or not it's true is another story.

You said claim about SLAUGHTER.

Like I've explained, that is a claim, but it was not what I referred to when I used the word. Not that I'm saying the slaughter happened, that has nothing to do with the argument.
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« Reply #144 on: July 13, 2010, 05:05:49 AM »


I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

It is not a claim, but a fact. Ottomans were afraid of the Armenian population in the eastern part of the Empire and conducted genocide on them, using the war as a pretext.

I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.
What "message of Christ" do you want us to see?
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« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2010, 05:17:48 AM »


I was responding to Salpy's claim about slaughter.

It is not a claim, but a fact. Ottomans were afraid of the Armenian population in the eastern part of the Empire and conducted genocide on them, using the war as a pretext.

I was not arguing for whether or not that happened. You can't even see my message, let alone seeing the message of Christ.
What "message of Christ" do you want us to see?

To wroship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.

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« Reply #146 on: July 13, 2010, 05:20:37 AM »


To wroship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.


The moon god of Islam is not the transcendent One.

More, you try to mutilate the ONE by trying to remove His eternal Word and His eternal Love from His essence.
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« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2010, 05:25:01 AM »


To wroship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.


The moon god of Islam is not the transcendent One.

More, you try to mutilate the ONE by trying to remove His eternal Word and His eternal Love from His essence.

The all-transcendent One, is indeed the God of the moon, as he is the sun, the planets and the stars. He is indeed the Lord of the heavens and the Earth. May he be satisfied with us.
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« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2010, 05:32:52 AM »

وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ لِأَبِيهِ آزَرَ أَتَتَّخِذُ أَصْنَامًا آلِهَةً إِنِّي أَرَاكَ وَقَوْمَكَ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُبِينٍ. وَكَذَلِكَ نُرِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ مَلَكُوتَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلِيَكُونَ مِنْ الْمُوقِنِينَ. فَلَمَّا جَنَّ عَلَيْهِ اللَّيْلُ رَأَى كَوْكَبًا قَالَ هَذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَا أُحِبُّ الْآفِلِينَ. فَلَمَّا رَأَى الْقَمَرَ بَازِغًا قَالَ هَذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَئِنْ لَمْ يَهْدِنِي رَبِّي لَأَكُونَنَّ مِنْ الْقَوْمِ الضَّالِّينَ. فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَذَا رَبِّي هَذَا أَكْبَرُ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ. إِنِّي وَجَّهْتُ وَجْهِي لِلَّذِي فَطَرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا أَنَا مِنْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ


Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar: "Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error." So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude. When the night covered him over, He saw a star: He said: "This is my Lord." But when it set, He said: "I love not those that set." When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said: "unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray." When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah. "For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah." (6:74-79)
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« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2010, 05:33:49 AM »


To wroship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.


The moon god of Islam is not the transcendent One.

More, you try to mutilate the ONE by trying to remove His eternal Word and His eternal Love from His essence.

The all-transcendent One, is indeed the God of the moon, as he is the sun, the planets and the stars. He is indeed the Lord of the heavens and the Earth. May he be satisfied with us.
Please be very careful here.  Up 'til now, you've merely been boasting of the superiority of your religion, but now you're starting to sound as if you're proselytizing us.  I'm not sure you realize how much you risk by coming to this Orthodox Christian discussion community to try to convert us to Islam.  We do have rules against such proselytization.
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« Reply #150 on: July 13, 2010, 05:52:20 AM »


To worship the all-transcendent, the One beyond time and space. And not to reject those who call to it because of pride.


The moon god of Islam is not the transcendent One.

More, you try to mutilate the ONE by trying to remove His eternal Word and His eternal Love from His essence.

The all-transcendent One, is indeed the God of the moon, as he is the sun, the planets and the stars. He is indeed the Lord of the heavens and the Earth. May he be satisfied with us.
Please be very careful here.  Up 'til now, you've merely been boasting of the superiority of your religion, but now you're starting to sound as if you're proselytizing us.  I'm not sure you realize how much you risk by coming to this Orthodox Christian discussion community to try to convert us to Islam.  We do have rules against such proselytizing.

I apologize if it sounded like that, I'm a guest among you and I'm willing to act as such, but the fact of the matter is that you have directed a question towards me.

Also, I've read the rules and none of them concerns proselytizing or expressing non Orthodox Christian view.

I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?
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« Reply #151 on: July 13, 2010, 08:26:34 AM »


You know what?  You are offensive.

There is no "official" stance on anything particularly "Muslim" in Orthodoxy.  The Orthodox are only concerned with Orthodoxy.   We really don't care about your misguided beliefs.

However, it is our duty to lead you to the True God - the Holy Trinity.

Therefore, please continue to read our forum and hopefully you will be open to receive the Truth.

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« Reply #152 on: July 13, 2010, 08:32:38 AM »


However, it is our duty to lead you to the True God - the Holy Trinity.


Allow me to ask you this: Do you think Abraham, Noah, Solomon, David and Moses prayed and lived in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'?
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« Reply #153 on: July 13, 2010, 08:47:32 AM »


However, it is our duty to lead you to the True God - the Holy Trinity.


Allow me to ask you this: Do you think Abraham, Noah, Solomon, David and Moses prayed and lived in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'?

YES. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
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« Reply #154 on: July 13, 2010, 08:56:14 AM »


However, it is our duty to lead you to the True God - the Holy Trinity.


Allow me to ask you this: Do you think Abraham, Noah, Solomon, David and Moses prayed and lived in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'?

YES. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Indeed, God does not change, but this reality works against your creed not for it. The fact of the matter is, neither the Prophets not their followers prayed in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'. It take s alot of obstinacy and pride to deny that.
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« Reply #155 on: July 13, 2010, 08:58:39 AM »


Indeed, God does not change, but this reality works against your creed not for it. The fact of the matter is, neither the Prophets not their followers prayed in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'. It take s alot of obstinacy and pride to deny that.

All those figures prayed in the name of Elohim YHWH, who IS the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

None of the biblical figures prayed in the name of Allah/Hubal (the moon god of pagans).
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« Reply #156 on: July 13, 2010, 09:28:28 AM »


Indeed, God does not change, but this reality works against your creed not for it. The fact of the matter is, neither the Prophets not their followers prayed in the name of the 'father, the son and the holy ghost'. It take s alot of obstinacy and pride to deny that.

All those figures prayed in the name of Elohim YHWH, who IS the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Your argument has exactly the same validity as claiming that the Prophets worshipped Vinshnu and Krishna because they worshipped YHWH who is Vishnu and Krishna.

I repeat my question. Did the Prophets conciously pray in the name of the 'Father, the son and the holy ghose'? Did any Prophet ever utter the words "O Israelities, why don't worship the trinity?" or something to that effect?

Your salvation may lay in your answer for those questions.

Pride will not be an excuse when you will face your Creator.



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« Reply #157 on: July 13, 2010, 09:57:22 AM »


Your argument has exactly the same validity as claiming that the Prophets worshipped Vinshnu and Krishna because they worshipped YHWH who is Vishnu and Krishna.

YHWH is not Vishnu and Krishna, nor is YHWH Mohammad's moon god (Allah).

Vishnu and Krishna never claimed to be equal to YHWH either.

If you read the Torah, there you can see references to YHWH, His creative Word (intellect), and His Spirit (life). This is the same as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christian Trinitarian doctrine is not independent of the true God YHWH of the Old Testament. We cannot say the same about your moon god though.


I repeat my question. Did the Prophets conciously pray in the name of the 'Father, the son and the holy ghose'? Did any Prophet ever utter the words "O Israelities, why don't worship the trinity?" or something to that effect?

You are trying to put restrictions on God and interfere with His means of revelation. The Trinity exists independent of praying people. Non-Muslims never pray in the name of Allah. In the light of this fact, you should conclude that Allah does not exist.  Grin

Read the first chapter of the Bible. In the beginning God created everything through His Word, and His Spirit moved upon the waters to bless them. Even there you see the Triune God, whom you reject because you follow the false moon god manipulated by Mohammad.

Your salvation may lay in your answer for those questions.

Pride will not be an excuse when you will face your Creator.

My salvation lays in the Triune God rather than in answers to your fallacious questions.  Wink
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« Reply #158 on: July 13, 2010, 10:09:30 AM »

If you read the Torah, there you can see references to YHWH, His creative Word (intellect), and His Spirit (life). This is the same as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christian Trinitarian doctrine is not independent of the true God YHWH of the Old Testament. We cannot say the same about your moon god though.

So each of the Almighty's attribute is a person? Then you must not worship the Trinity, you must worst the Hunderidity, as you would make a person for God's knowledge, a person for God's sight, a person for God's mercy et cetera.

Quote
The Trinity exists independent of praying people.

So what you're saying that the Prophets, who received direct inspiration from God, were not able to figure out God's nature, unlike you.

Quote
Non-Muslims never pray in the name of Allah. In the light of this fact, you should conclude that Allah does not exist.  Grin

You need to have a word with some Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews.

Quote
My salvation lays in the Triune

Pride can be the cause of your downfall, be aware!


Also, since you keep bringing up this lunar god thing, I must tell you that if you left God's Religion because you  thought Muslims worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or deity whose authority is exclusive to the moon, then you were hugely misguided.
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« Reply #159 on: July 13, 2010, 10:11:41 AM »

Quote
Read the first chapter of the Bible. In the beginning God created everything through His Word, and His Spirit moved upon the waters to bless them. Even there you see the Triune God, whom you reject because you follow the false moon god manipulated by Mohammad.

Indeed, Theophilus. Another manifestation of the Holy Trinity from the Old Testament is the visitation of the three strangers to Abraham and Sarah at the Oak of Mamre in chapter 18 of Genesis. Three persons, yet one Lord and God.
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« Reply #160 on: July 13, 2010, 10:13:03 AM »

edit
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« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2010, 10:13:17 AM »


So what you're saying that the Prophets, who received direct inspiration from God, were not able to figure out God's nature, unlike you.

No. What is being said, is that that full doctrine of the Trinity was not revealed to the prophets. Why is that a difficulty?
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« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2010, 10:25:00 AM »


So each of the Almighty's attribute is a person? Then you must not worship the Trinity, you must worst the Hunderidity, as you would make a person for God's knowledge, a person for God's sight, a person for God's mercy et cetera.

I wonder how many times I shall have to tell you that I am sick of straw man arguments.  Roll Eyes

I never said that the Almighty's EACH and EVERY attribute is a person. Only His essence, His intellect/wisdom, and His Spirit are persons, being essential to His being.

So what you're saying that the Prophets, who received direct inspiration from God, were not able to figure out God's nature, unlike you.

Another straw man argument.

Do you believe that prophets would be able to figure out God's nature through direct revelation even if God did not want it? God chooses when and how to reveal Himself to mankind. You really have some weird ideas about God.

You need to have a word with some Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews.

You did not understand my point. Let me give another example: I know many atheists who do not believe Allah. According to your odd interpretation, Allah does not exist because of the lack of belief or because of people who do not pray. This is ridiculous.

Pride can be the cause of your downfall, be aware!

Pride became the cause of your Mohammad's downfall. Thanks for reminding though.

Also, since you keep bringing up this lunar god thing, I must tell you that if you left God's Religion because you  thought Muslims worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or deity whose authority is exclusive to the moon, then you were hugely misguided.

For me the only true God is YHWH, not Allah or Zeus or Krishna.

I left Mohammad's ideology because I saw what a crafty and evil person he was. He deceived and misled many souls. He will get his payback for sure.

You can read my conversion testimony here: http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2010/05/12/my-conversion-from-islam-to-orthodoxy-by-masud-masihiyyen/#axzz0tZXtAmsF


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« Reply #163 on: July 13, 2010, 10:35:09 AM »


Please be very careful here.  Up 'til now, you've merely been boasting of the superiority of your religion, but now you're starting to sound as if you're proselytizing us.  I'm not sure you realize how much you risk by coming to this Orthodox Christian discussion community to try to convert us to Islam.  We do have rules against such proselytizing.

I apologize if it sounded like that, I'm a guest among you and I'm willing to act as such, but the fact of the matter is that you have directed a question towards me.

Also, I've read the rules and none of them concerns proselytizing or expressing non Orthodox Christian view.


Please see our Board Policies thread titled     
Read Me! Compiled Board policies, information points, etc. here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.0.html for the Forum rules against proselytizing.

Quote
Quote from: Anastasios on November 24, 2003, 05:29:37 PM
Friends,

From now on, banners in signatures to other forums are not allowed although you may link to another forum or website in your signature, without comment.

From now on, you may not advertise your other web forum on our forum.  Links to threads on other forums are allowed, however, if they are pertinent to discussions here.

Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is no longer allowed.  I don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message.

You may not private message others to solicit them to join your forum, however.  We have the ability to read other people's private messages (this is disclosed in the member agreement you sign when joining the forum) and we don't do that usually, but we can, and we will, if we think you are trying to lure people away from our site.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.  From a human standpoint I would be lying if I said that some people in particular did not precipitate this action BUT at the same time there have been others over the past 1.5 years who have done this as well, so it is not just based on a knee-jerk reaction.

Stay tuned for an even more indepth statement on proselytism to be issued soon by all of us Admins.

anastasios
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And from reply#5 in that thread:


Quote
People who do not fit this broad, academic definition of Orthodox, (as described in the preceding paragraph of the thread) such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, non-Christians, and others, are permitted to post here and to offer positive contributions to the site and corrections when their faith traditions are misrepresented.  They are not, however, permitted to attempt to bring people to other faiths.

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« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2010, 10:35:23 AM »


So what you're saying that the Prophets, who received direct inspiration from God, were not able to figure out God's nature, unlike you.

No. What is being said, is that that full doctrine of the Trinity was not revealed to the prophets. Why is that a difficulty?


Why is that, may I ask, domine meam?
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« Reply #165 on: July 13, 2010, 10:36:44 AM »


Please be very careful here.  Up 'til now, you've merely been boasting of the superiority of your religion, but now you're starting to sound as if you're proselytizing us.  I'm not sure you realize how much you risk by coming to this Orthodox Christian discussion community to try to convert us to Islam.  We do have rules against such proselytizing.

I apologize if it sounded like that, I'm a guest among you and I'm willing to act as such, but the fact of the matter is that you have directed a question towards me.

Also, I've read the rules and none of them concerns proselytizing or expressing non Orthodox Christian view.


Please see our Board Policies thread titled     
Read Me! Compiled Board policies, information points, etc. here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.0.html

Quote
Quote from: Anastasios on November 24, 2003, 05:29:37 PM
Friends,

From now on, banners in signatures to other forums are not allowed although you may link to another forum or website in your signature, without comment.

From now on, you may not advertise your other web forum on our forum.  Links to threads on other forums are allowed, however, if they are pertinent to discussions here.

Proselytizing people to your jurisdiction is no longer allowed.  I don't care if it is the GOA or the ROAC, we don't exist to give spiritual advice, but rather to discuss spiritual matters. There is a healthy distinction.  If you feel the need to plug your group then do it by private message.

You may not private message others to solicit them to join your forum, however.  We have the ability to read other people's private messages (this is disclosed in the member agreement you sign when joining the forum) and we don't do that usually, but we can, and we will, if we think you are trying to lure people away from our site.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.  From a human standpoint I would be lying if I said that some people in particular did not precipitate this action BUT at the same time there have been others over the past 1.5 years who have done this as well, so it is not just based on a knee-jerk reaction.

Stay tuned for an even more indepth statement on proselytism to be issued soon by all of us Admins.

anastasios
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And from reply#5 in that thread:


Quote
People who do not fit this broad, academic definition of Orthodox, (as described in the preceding paragraph of the thread) such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, non-Christians, and others, are permitted to post here and to offer positive contributions to the site and corrections when their faith traditions are misrepresented.  They are not, however, permitted to attempt to bring people to other faiths.

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Can I answer questions about my Religion if asked?
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« Reply #166 on: July 13, 2010, 10:43:59 AM »


Beautiful story.
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« Reply #167 on: July 13, 2010, 10:44:31 AM »


I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?



Since you are proclaiming what 'official' Orthodox beliefs and opinions are (there are no 'official' "opinions" that makes no sense)
I am requesting, as an official request in compliance with the Forum Rules, that you give us some source for your information? Considering that you're claiming this is an official position of the Orthodox Church, the source, I feel, must be a source that the majority of Orthodox would consider authoritative, and not just an opinion of a single priest, Bishop, or Churchmen. Thank you in advance for the source of your information . . . .

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« Reply #168 on: July 13, 2010, 10:45:40 AM »


Can I answer questions about my Religion if asked?



Of course you may!

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« Reply #169 on: July 13, 2010, 10:47:30 AM »

I wonder how many times I shall have to tell you that I am sick of straw man arguments.  Roll Eyes

I never said that the Almighty's EACH and EVERY attribute is a person. Only His essence, His intellect/wisdom, and His Spirit are persons, being essential to His being.

Why did you pick just those three?

Quote
Another straw man argument.

Do you believe that prophets would be able to figure out God's nature through direct revelation even if God did not want it? God chooses when and how to reveal Himself to mankind. You really have some weird ideas about God.

So you're saying that God did not reveal the trinity to his Prophets and that's the reason why didn't pray in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost? But you said otherwise in the paragraph above when you talked about the existence of the trinitarian doctrine in the OT.

You did not understand my point. Let me give another example: I know many atheists who do not believe Allah. According to your odd interpretation, Allah does not exist because of the lack of belief or because of people who do not pray. This is ridiculous.

We're not talking about random people, we are the talking about the Prophets, the intermediaries between us and out Creator. They are more worthy to know such crucial things as the very nature of God than the fathers of trinitarian Churches.

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« Reply #170 on: July 13, 2010, 10:49:13 AM »


I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?



Since you are proclaiming what 'official' Orthodox beliefs and opinions are (there are no 'official' "opinions" that makes no sense)
I am requesting, as an official request in compliance with the Forum Rules, that you give us some source for your information? Considering that you're claiming this is an official position of the Orthodox Church, the source, I feel, must be a source that the majority of Orthodox would consider authoritative, and not just an opinion of a single priest, Bishop, or Churchmen. Thank you in advance for the source of your information . . . .

Northern Pines, Religious Topics Forum Moderator


I meant it's NOT the official opinion. Please change it if you can. 
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« Reply #171 on: July 13, 2010, 10:58:55 AM »


I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?

You're "quite sure", and you are also "quite wrong!" Smiley

There is no "official opinion" within Orthodoxy on what Islam is and is not. The Orthodox Church has never had any Councils, or Synods, or any Declarations or even anything in any Catechism written about Islam, or any other religion for that matter. The Church has "official" beliefs about what it teaches, not about what other faiths teach.

What individual Orthodox Christians hold as an opinion about Islam might be different, but there is no official teaching or official belief about Islam. What opinion I hold might be different than another person, and so and so forth, but none of these opinions are official. Frankly I've never heard anyone say they believe Muslims worship the moon, or a "deity that lives on the moon"....NOTHING lives on the moon, it is a lifeless dead rock circling the earth. And if anyone told me they believed Muslims worshipped a being on the moon, I'd take them to be some sort of crackpot. But then I don't believe in things like the "evil eye" nor do I think black cats are "bad luck" so maybe I'm just too modern in my worldview. Cheesy

NP

PS: feel free to not answer now that you've answered my official request!


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« Reply #172 on: July 13, 2010, 11:01:20 AM »


I'm quite sure it's the the 'official' Orthodox opinion that Muslim worship the moon, a deity residing on the moon or a deity whose authority is limited to the moon, but I think I'm entitled to clarify the correct position on matter of of Islamic theology and Law, am I wrong?



Since you are proclaiming what 'official' Orthodox beliefs and opinions are (there are no 'official' "opinions" that makes no sense)
I am requesting, as an official request in compliance with the Forum Rules, that you give us some source for your information? Considering that you're claiming this is an official position of the Orthodox Church, the source, I feel, must be a source that the majority of Orthodox would consider authoritative, and not just an opinion of a single priest, Bishop, or Churchmen. Thank you in advance for the source of your information . . . .

Northern Pines, Religious Topics Forum Moderator


I meant it's NOT the official opinion. Please change it if you can. 



Well I can change it, but I won't because everything will just be too confusing. Knowing now that it was merely a typo, I retract my request for source material.

Thank you for your clarification . . . .

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« Reply #173 on: July 13, 2010, 11:04:01 AM »



Why did you pick just those three?


You assume that they were picked. But they were not. It's just God's nature.

Do you believe that prophets would be able to figure out God's nature through direct revelation even if God did not want it? God chooses when and how to reveal Himself to mankind. You really have some weird ideas about God.
No you have weird ideas about God if you think that God's nature can be "figured out". If God is truely infinite, then there is no way that we can know his essence/nature through reason. What we know about God is what he chooses to reveal to us. If he only chooses to reaveal the fullness of the doctrine of the trinity to us at a certain time, who are we to argue with him?
So you're saying that God did not reveal the trinity to his Prophets and that's the reason why didn't pray in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost? But you said otherwise in the paragraph above when you talked about the existence of the trinitarian doctrine in the OT.
It's one thing to say that there are concepts in the Old Testament for the basis of the Trinity, and another to say that God provided a full and clear revelation of the Tinity in the Old Testament.
We're not talking about random people, we are the talking about the Prophets, the intermediaries between us and out Creator. They are more worthy to know such crucial things as the very nature of God than the fathers of trinitarian Churches.
Who are you to determine who is worthy of the revelation of the Trinity?
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« Reply #174 on: July 13, 2010, 11:46:58 AM »

By the way, Salpy, I apologize for saying that I don't believe you like that. It's not that I think you're lying, it's just stories tend to be told different then how they happened, especially if the people telling the story had an interest in changing them a bit, as in smearing a people that they despise.

The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?

Starting in the year 1915, the Ottomans began a systematic slaughter of their Armenian population.  Their method, as they went from village to village, was to kill the men first and then take the women and children on a "death march" into the Syrian desert.  It was not uncommon for the soldiers, as they were about to kill their victims, to ask the people they were about to kill to convert to Islam.  They were told they could save their lives by converting.  Very few Armenians converted.

Among the victims of this Genocide were relatives of my mother.  The uncle I mentioned was the father of my mom's cousin Zabel, and she was the one who related the story.  Before she died, another cousin of mine videotaped her telling the story.  After her death I saw the videotape.  She was not lying.  I could tell it was painful for her to relate the story, and at one point she even imitated the motion that her father's head made as his throat was slit.  I can't imagine how painful it must have been for her to carry that image in her mind all her life.  

If you want to call Cousin Zabel a liar, I can't stop you.  I know her story is true and that is enough.
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« Reply #175 on: July 13, 2010, 11:49:01 AM »

By the way, Salpy, I apologize for saying that I don't believe you like that. It's not that I think you're lying, it's just stories tend to be told different then how they happened, especially if the people telling the story had an interest in changing them a bit, as in smearing a people that they despise.

The Ottomans never forced the people of the Dhimma to convert, even in their times of glory, why would they do it when everyone is ganging against them from all sides, and the very least of their concerns is to convert people?

Starting in the year 1915, the Ottomans began a systematic slaughter of their Armenian population.  Their method, as they went from village to village, was to kill the men first and then take the women and children on a "death march" into the Syrian desert.  It was not uncommon for the soldiers, as they were about to kill their victims, to ask the people they were about to kill to convert to Islam.  They were told they could save their lives by converting.  Very few Armenians converted.

Among the victims of this Genocide were relatives of my mother.  The uncle I mentioned was the father of my mom's cousin Zabel, and she was the one who related the story.  Before she died, another cousin of mine videotaped her telling the story.  After her death I saw the videotape.  She was not lying.  I could tell it was painful for her to relate the story, and at one point she even imitated the motion that her father's head made as his throat was slit.  I can't imagine how painful it must have been for her to carry that image in her mind all her life.  

If you want to call Cousin Zabel a liar, I can't stop you.  I know her story is true and that is enough.

May all these martyrs for the Faith, keep us in prayer through constant intercession. How terribly sad to see such cruelty but also, how incredibly beautiful to see people so devoted to their faith in Christ that not even the threat of death could pull them away from the arms of our Savior.
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« Reply #176 on: July 13, 2010, 11:50:47 AM »

If he only chooses to reaveal the fullness of the doctrine of the trinity to us at a certain time, who are we to argue with him?

The discussion is whether or not he revealed such thing.

Quote
It's one thing to say that there are concepts in the Old Testament for the basis of the Trinity, and another to say that God provided a full and clear revelation of the Tinity in the Old Testament.

So what do you think of the fact that Jews reject the trinity and consider Christians, unlike Muslims, to be heathens. Are they correct in their understanding of the Tanakh?

By the way: Omnia prophitae domini noster sunt. How bad did I butcher the language?
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« Reply #177 on: July 13, 2010, 11:59:41 AM »

The discussion is whether or not he revealed such thing.
And all you are doing throughout your posts is assuming that no such thing happened.

So what do you think of the fact that Jews reject the trinity and consider Christians, unlike Muslims, to be heathens. Are they correct in their understanding of the Tanakh?
You know that as a Christian I believe that the Jews were incorrect in their rejection of the Divinity of Christ. Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?
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« Reply #178 on: July 13, 2010, 12:36:55 PM »

If he only chooses to reaveal the fullness of the doctrine of the trinity to us at a certain time, who are we to argue with him?

The discussion is whether or not he revealed such thing.

Quote
It's one thing to say that there are concepts in the Old Testament for the basis of the Trinity, and another to say that God provided a full and clear revelation of the Tinity in the Old Testament.

So what do you think of the fact that Jews reject the trinity and consider Christians, unlike Muslims, to be heathens. Are they correct in their understanding of the Tanakh?
Of course not.  As St. Paul writes
II Corinthians 3:14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

That veil in the Temple was torn in two, as the Gospels attest, and even the Talmud admits that the doors of the Temple opened of their own accord every night for around 40 years before the Temple's destruction i.e. 30 A.D. (when the real Temple was crucified and rose).
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« Reply #179 on: July 13, 2010, 12:46:10 PM »

Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
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« Reply #180 on: July 13, 2010, 12:46:52 PM »

Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
We disagree with them.
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« Reply #181 on: July 13, 2010, 12:51:54 PM »

Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
We disagree with them.

Of course you do, but do you find such claim justifiable withing the sole limits of the OT?
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« Reply #182 on: July 13, 2010, 12:55:15 PM »

Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
We disagree with them.

Of course you do, but do you find such claim justifiable withing the sole limits of the OT?
1. No, especially when you consider how "Wisdom" in the Old Testament is considered co-eternal with God and when you see God's spirit continually mentioned in the OT. Also, you have to keep in mind that "Elohim", one of the names applied to God, is a plural word suggesting Plural unity. Finally, you have the creation account in which God states, "Let us create man in our image".
2. Why should I work within the sole limits of the OT when Christ has come to provide us with the fullness of revelation?
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« Reply #183 on: July 13, 2010, 12:57:38 PM »

Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
They don't understand the OT. What was spoken in type was proclaimed directly when He came down in Person.
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« Reply #184 on: July 13, 2010, 12:58:30 PM »

Mekki,
Is it true that Muslims believe that the Koran is Co-eternal with God?
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« Reply #185 on: July 13, 2010, 12:59:29 PM »

Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.
We disagree with them.

Of course you do, but do you find such claim justifiable withing the sole limits of the OT?
Since the Gospels fulfills the promises in the "sole limits of the OT," one cannot take the OT without the NT.  Hence the Jews problem, who substitute their Talmud.
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« Reply #186 on: July 13, 2010, 01:10:32 PM »

1. No, especially when you consider how "Wisdom" in the Old Testament is considered co-eternal with God and when you see God's spirit continually mentioned in the OT. Also, you have to keep in mind that "Elohim", one of the names applied to God, is a plural word suggesting Plural unity. Finally, you have the creation account in which God states, "Let us create man in our image".

The plural there is for majesty, which it seems to be in common use withing Semitic languages. in Arabic, when you speak to someone higher in stature than you, you use antum (you in plural), which functions exactly like the French vous.

Besides, isn't what you suggest goes againt you creed, don't you say that God is one but he is manifested in three persons. Where that from Deutoronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.


Quote
2. Why should I work within the sole limits of the OT when Christ has come to provide us with the fullness of revelation?

I'm not saying you should, my question cencerned the Jews and the OT strictly.
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« Reply #187 on: July 13, 2010, 01:11:47 PM »

Mekki,
Is it true that Muslims believe that the Koran is Co-eternal with God?

It's a highly debated subject.
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« Reply #188 on: July 13, 2010, 01:16:40 PM »


The plural there is for majesty, which it seems to be in common use withing Semitic languages. in Arabic, when you speak to someone higher in stature than you, you use antum (you in plural), which functions exactly like the French vous.
That would make sense if it wasn't for the pesky fact that its not just the "royal we" that is plural, but God's own self designation as "Elohim".
Besides, isn't what you suggest goes againt you creed, don't you say that God is one but he is manifested in three persons. Where that from Deutoronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
I am not saying anything that Goes against my creed. Yes we do indeed believe that in God there are three persons and one God. This is expressed well by the word "Elohim" which is a word that suggests plural unity, like the word "family" or the term "school of fish" or "Pack" etc. etc etc. The plurality is the number of persons. The unity is the essence, nature, being, divinity, God.
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« Reply #189 on: July 13, 2010, 01:17:10 PM »

Mekki,
Is it true that Muslims believe that the Koran is Co-eternal with God?

It's a highly debated subject.
How widespread is the belief that the Koran is eternal?
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« Reply #190 on: July 13, 2010, 01:18:08 PM »

Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.

Try to wrap your head around this:

Quote
Come and see the mystery of the word YHWH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew edition. See also Sonclno Press, Vol III, 134.)

And this:

Quote
Speaking of the identity of Hashem, a prominent Rabbi says...

Why does the Sh'ma declare "...the Lord, our God,
the Lord..." and thereby name him three times?

Because he is...

the Creator of Heaven and Earth -- being the Father,
the Stem of Jesse upon the Earth -- being the Messiah,
and the Way of Torah in the Earth -- being the Holy Spirit.

Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai, The Zohar.

(the Zohar is a spirtual narrative composed by Jewish mystics)

http://www.torahwellsprings.org/Studies/trinity.htm

Also I recommend studying the Targums, you'll be very surprised by what you find.
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« Reply #191 on: July 13, 2010, 01:19:31 PM »

Of course the Jews are wrong for rejecting many prophets, this is something we agree on. My question is, since the trinity was not revealed in the Tanakh, what's your position from Jews' claim that, based on the Bible, the Trinity is idolatrous.

Try to wrap your head around this:

Quote
Come and see the mystery of the word YHWH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. (Zohar, Vol III, 288; Vol II, 43, Hebrew edition. See also Sonclno Press, Vol III, 134.)

And this:

Speaking of the identity of Hashem, a prominent Rabbi says...

Quote
Why does the Sh'ma declare "...the Lord, our God,
the Lord..." and thereby name him three times?

Because he is...

the Creator of Heaven and Earth -- being the Father,
the Stem of Jesse upon the Earth -- being the Messiah,
and the Way of Torah in the Earth -- being the Holy Spirit.

Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai, The Zohar.

(the Zohar is a spirtual narrative composed by Jewish mystics)

http://www.torahwellsprings.org/Studies/trinity.htm

Also I recommend studying the Targums, you'll be very surprised by what you find.


Are these Messianic Jewish documents? How old are they?