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Author Topic: Jesus descends  (Read 13752 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mekki
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« on: July 10, 2010, 03:57:18 AM »

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats. He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.

Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.
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ytterbiumanalyst
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2010, 08:14:45 AM »

First of all, welcome to the forum. I don't remember us having a Muslim member on this board before, though we do welcome members of other faiths (we have at least one Jew and several atheists on the board currently, as well as numerous Protestants and Catholics). Your perspective can certainly help us to understand our faith better.

However, I feel I must say I do not recognize this Jesus of whom you write. The Jesus I know is not confused by cultural expressions such as dress and hat styles (nor have I ever seen a man wearing a hat into the Church), or the co-mingling of people of different genders. He also does not guess at the nature of women, for He made all men and women, and He knows us more intimately than we know ourselves.

Loud music and dancing are not part of our worship, but they are part of our celebrations. Again, Jesus does not wonder at cultural expressions such as rock 'n' roll music. We Orthodox can and do gather together at someone's house to socialize and have fun, and sometimes there is loud music and dancing. This practice is neither confusing nor offensive to God. And, like I said, our worship is nothing close to what you have described.

So I think that you unfairly and inaccurately characterise the Orthodox Christian faith. I know personally one member of this board who is a former Muslim; I'm sure he would be happy to talk with you about his experience.
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2010, 09:32:44 AM »

First of all, welcome to the forum. I don't remember us having a Muslim member on this board before, though we do welcome members of other faiths (we have at least one Jew and several atheists on the board currently, as well as numerous Protestants and Catholics). Your perspective can certainly help us to understand our faith better.

Thank you, I actually lurk here once in a while, and I'm familiar with the active members.

Quote
However, I feel I must say I do not recognize this Jesus of whom you write. The Jesus I know is not confused by cultural expressions such as dress and hat styles (nor have I ever seen a man wearing a hat into the Church), or the co-mingling of people of different genders. He also does not guess at the nature of women, for He made all men and women, and He knows us more intimately than we know ourselves.


Loud music and dancing are not part of our worship, but they are part of our celebrations. Again, Jesus does not wonder at cultural expressions such as rock 'n' roll music. We Orthodox can and do gather together at someone's house to socialize and have fun, and sometimes there is loud music and dancing. This practice is neither confusing nor offensive to God. And, like I said, our worship is nothing close to what you have described.

I hope you've noticed how I said a reverend, not a priest, so it's quite obvious for which group I'm refering to. And  I was refering to how Christian practises and norms have deviated from what would be seen as acceptable among the Israelites or even early gentile Christian societies. And Protestantism is not alone in that.

Also, I hope I'm not insulting anyone when I say that a part of how Orthodoxy kept a relative puristy is due to Islam, not in-spite of it as many might belive. Who would've though Catholocism would degenrate to its current state 9 centuries a go, but look at it.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 09:43:09 AM by Mekki » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2010, 10:50:26 AM »

Welcome to the Forum, Mekki. Smiley

I must agree with Ytterbiumanalyst though that the "Jesus" in your post is not the One that I recognize either.  Why would clothing and cultural norms of one particular area two thousand years ago necessarily apply throughout all time and all over the planet please?  Even during His time on Earth there were human beings (all created by God) in other places who had different practices and customs. 

I'm also curious about the point of "loud music".  An organ can certainly have some volume, but that doesn't mean that the music is somehow irreverent or not dedicated to the Glory of God or a hymn of worship.  Also there are priests in Churches other than the EO/OO/RC.  I am Anglican and we have priests.

May I ask if you have attended any Christian services that you are drawing your examples from real life? 

Ebor
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2010, 10:58:02 AM »

First of all, welcome to the forum. I don't remember us having a Muslim member on this board before,

I don't recall if Gabriel was still Muslim when he first came here. It's been a while.  Smiley

Quote

So I think that you unfairly and inaccurately characterise the Orthodox Christian faith. I know personally one member of this board who is a former Muslim; I'm sure he would be happy to talk with you about his experience.

I think that the OP unfairly and inaccurately characterizes Christianity in general and also has "Protestantism" as a monolithic bloc.

Ebor
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2010, 11:26:30 AM »

Welcome to the Forum, Mekki. Smiley

Thank you

Quote
I must agree with Ytterbiumanalyst though that the "Jesus" in your post is not the One that I recognize either.  Why would clothing and cultural norms of one particular area two thousand years ago necessarily apply throughout all time and all over the planet please?  Even during His time on Earth there were human beings (all created by God) in other places who had different practices and customs.
 

A poeple's customs and norms should be limited by whichever wordl-view they adhere to. It's such an indication of the state of Christianity today that it's more than acceptable for women to not wear headscarfs in the overwhelming majority of Chruches, even though it is regarded as an obligation by uncomprmizing Orthodox and Catholics as it is stated quite frankly in the Bible.

I've read a very interesting thread about hair covering, either here or in another Christian Orthodox forum, I would be very appreciative if someone could link to it (if it's here that is).

Quote
I'm also curious about the point of "loud music".  An organ can certainly have some volume, but that doesn't mean that the music is somehow irreverent or not dedicated to the Glory of God or a hymn of worship.  Also there are priests in Churches other than the EO/OO/RC.  I am Anglican and we have priests.

I wasn't talking about the volume, I was talking about the composition. There's a large difference between medieval Catholic ecclesiastical music and what you'd hear in a Baptist Chruch.

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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2010, 11:45:32 AM »

Also, I hope I'm not insulting anyone when I say that a part of how Orthodoxy kept a relative puristy is due to Islam, not in-spite of it as many might belive. Who would've though Catholocism would degenrate to its current state 9 centuries a go, but look at it.

Hate to say it, but you're probably right.  Our greatest Saints show up when we're persecuted.  The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church.  But the Latins gave us some good persecutin' too.  Islam can't take all the credit.  And don't forget the Communists!

As to the OP, I think if our Lord were to come to some modern McChurches he would probably be appalled at the commerce being done in his name.  Likewise, if the Prophet came back, he would be appalled at 13 year old girls getting gang raped, informing the police, then being stoned for adultery. 
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2010, 12:06:05 PM »

A
Quote
poeple's customs and norms should be limited by whichever wordl-view they adhere to. It's such an indication of the state of Christianity today that it's more than acceptable for women to not wear headscarfs in the overwhelming majority of Chruches, even though it is regarded as an obligation by uncomprmizing Orthodox and Catholics as it is stated quite frankly in the Bible.

I've read a very interesting thread about hair covering, either here or in another Christian Orthodox forum, I would be very appreciative if someone could link to it (if it's here that is
).

Are you familiar with the Mennonites and Amish? They are very sincere Christians, and within the more conservative elements, all women wear headcoverings all the time, out of respect for the biblical command to do so found in 1 Corinthians 11. They also believe in modest dress for both sexes; women wear long, modest dresses.

They also practise non-resistance, which means they are peace-loving people who are opposed to war and killing people. I think we could learn from their example.
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2010, 01:05:41 PM »

Hate to say it, but you're probably right.  Our greatest Saints show up when we're persecuted.  The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church.  But the Latins gave us some good persecutin' too.  Islam can't take all the credit.  And don't forget the Communists!

That's not quite what I was talking about. If what you said ws true, Catholicism would be the purest religion on Earth as it was the maint target of the "Enlightenment" which thought to annihilate anything Traditional, and anything of supra-human nature. And where is "turning the other cheek" as most Christians seem to interpret it, you're not supposed to whine even if you were killed, but to call paying Jizya a prosecution is an exaseration to say the least.

Quote
As to the OP, I think if our Lord were to come to some modern McChurches he would probably be appalled at the commerce being done in his name.  Likewise, if the Prophet came back, he would be appalled at 13 year old girls getting gang raped, informing the police, then being stoned for adultery. 

Even if there multiple cases like what you described, it would almost impossible to come across it due to the odds. But the fact is, it's a single case that happened in Somalia. And there's no ambiguation about the Islamic stance on the subject, the girls goes and the rapists gets punished.

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman, “Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you,” but of the man who had raped her, he said, “Stone him to death.” (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2010, 01:10:21 PM »

They also practise non-resistance, which means they are peace-loving people who are opposed to war and killing people. I think we could learn from their example.

Moses and David waged wars and killed people, what do you think of them? Why did central Christian figures have swords on them and used them, like George? The only thing that saved Christianity from disappearence is that most, if not all, of the Christian who were in power didn't hold this interpretation of things.
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2010, 01:17:52 PM »

They also practise non-resistance, which means they are peace-loving people who are opposed to war and killing people. I think we could learn from their example.

Moses and David waged wars and killed people, what do you think of them? Why did central Christian figures have swords on them and used them, like George? The only thing that saved Christianity from disappearence is that most, if not all, of the Christian who were in power didn't hold this interpretation of things.

Christ teaches us a new way under the New Covenant. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? From a worldly perspective, peacefulness and loving our enemies may be incomprehensible, but for some Christians, this is the only way. Yes, it is radical, it is difficult, but the Christian life is never easy.
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2010, 01:30:34 PM »

Christ teaches us a new way under the New Covenant. Have you read the Sermon on the Mount? From a worldly perspective, peacefulness and loving our enemies may be incomprehensible, but for some Christians, this is the only way. Yes, it is radical, it is difficult, but the Christian life is never easy.

Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism. When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation. And I quite honestly think that before People start claiming pacifism they should actively seek the abolishment of their states' armies first.

Furthermore. Anything that was said at the mountain was thought by all Prophets.
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2010, 01:38:27 PM »

(...) he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well.

Well, maybe he shouldn't have started out at St. Gregory of Nyssa.
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2010, 03:12:55 PM »


First, welcome to the forum!  Cheesy


Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism.


Really? Perhaps you're defining "Pacifism" in a different way than others are then. That wouldn't be that strange actually because I've discussed this with people before, and what they mean by Pacifism is often times very different than what I mean by it. (see below)

Anyways, just from a purely historical POV, it's obviously not hard to interpret it that way at all. What is hard, is for most people, caught up in the "ways of the world" and the logic and reason of our human minds to see how this could actually "work" in the "real world". It's very human to see things like non-violence as being a path that "just won't work in our real world!" And yet by assuming it doesn't work, maybe we are not trusting God. After all God's ways are not our ways. Just because it doesn't "make sense" to our fallible human minds, doesn't mean a hill of beans.

Quote
When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation.

It's impossible to you perhaps, but not to everyone. Again, Mennonites and the Amish live by the law of Pacifism in an absolute sense. So do followers of Jainism And so have a number of Christian saints, both East and West. I know there have been Jewish holy men, (as well as most Buddhists, many Hindus and I'm sure some Muslims were were also pacifists. Though as for Muslim holy men, (do you call them saints?) I can't say definitively, since I must plead ignorance, though I believe I've heard of some. So it's not "impossible" at all to interpret in light of the Prophetic tradition of Israel. There certainly are alternative interpretations, and people can discuss these differences. They can dialogue, and try and see where the other person is coming from. It might very well be the wrong interpretation.  But it is a valid one.




Quote
And I quite honestly think that before People start claiming pacifism they should actively seek the abolishment of their states' armies first.

That's putting the cart before the horse don't ya think? Wink

Anyways I don't really intend to really discuss this issue myself, only suggesting that it is quite possible to see a strand of non-violence throughout all the Prophets of Old. (by this I mean physical violence...there of course remains an inner struggle and often violent conflict we all must deal with within ourselves. The struggle and war within each of us to become less egocentric, to become more loving, and to see all as our brothers and sisters. That is not what most people mean by "Pacifism" they mean non-physical violence, and hopefully everyone can agree to the term of "Pacifism" to mean the refusal to inflict physical violence upon another person, in a scholarly respectful manner, and not just as a pejorative word meaning "wimp" or other such nonsense. Because if anyone thinks Pacifism is "wimpy" all I suggest if for that person to go and try it out, and see how tough a person really is.





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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2010, 03:30:00 PM »

أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم
أب, إبنة, وكحول مقدّسة

I take refuge from the accursed Satan, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amin.

Salaam and Welcome to the forum, Mekki.  Smiley

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats.
I have seen many, many Muslima's (Muslim women) wearing 'strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair'.  I have witnessed them leave the masajid (mosques) only to go shopping at the malls to buy miniskirts and make-up.  Did I mention that as soon as they were out of sight from the men, they quickly threw off their hijabs and started smoking?  My friend, I do not mention these things to disparage Islam, but to show that we are all sinners.

He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.
I once visited a masjid where the men and women were dancing and singing together.  The song they were singing went like this;
"Hasbi rabbi jall 'allah, mafi qalbi ghair 'ullah! Noori Muhammad sall 'allah!"  Do you dance and sing songs like this at your mosque?

  

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.
I wonder if this is a masjid you're talking about now?  Smiley  My friend, I have visited many mosques where the people were 'back-biting' and talking of business.  Should I judge these people based on that?
 
Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.
Who is this Jesus of which you speak?  The Jesus I know prayed like this;


Luke 11:2-4

 2 "And he (Jesus the Christ) said unto them, 'When ye pray, say, "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.  Give us day by day our daily bread.  And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.'"

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.
Again, friend, this Jesus is a stranger.  The Jesus I do know can be found in the New Testament and understood here-

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."


Here, our Lord and Savior, reveals Who He is- The Second Person in the Holy Trinity

« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 03:38:26 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2010, 03:51:10 PM »


First, welcome to the forum!  Cheesy


Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism.


Really? Perhaps you're defining "Pacifism" in a different way than others are then. That wouldn't be that strange actually because I've discussed this with people before, and what they mean by Pacifism is often times very different than what I mean by it. (see below)

Anyways, just from a purely historical POV, it's obviously not hard to interpret it that way at all. What is hard, is for most people, caught up in the "ways of the world" and the logic and reason of our human minds to see how this could actually "work" in the "real world". It's very human to see things like non-violence as being a path that "just won't work in our real world!" And yet by assuming it doesn't work, maybe we are not trusting God. After all God's ways are not our ways. Just because it doesn't "make sense" to our fallible human minds, doesn't mean a hill of beans.

Quote
When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation.

It's impossible to you perhaps, but not to everyone. Again, Mennonites and the Amish live by the law of Pacifism in an absolute sense. So do followers of Jainism And so have a number of Christian saints, both East and West. I know there have been Jewish holy men, (as well as most Buddhists, many Hindus and I'm sure some Muslims were were also pacifists. Though as for Muslim holy men, (do you call them saints?) I can't say definitively, since I must plead ignorance, though I believe I've heard of some. So it's not "impossible" at all to interpret in light of the Prophetic tradition of Israel. There certainly are alternative interpretations, and people can discuss these differences. They can dialogue, and try and see where the other person is coming from. It might very well be the wrong interpretation.  But it is a valid one.




Quote
And I quite honestly think that before People start claiming pacifism they should actively seek the abolishment of their states' armies first.

That's putting the cart before the horse don't ya think? Wink

Anyways I don't really intend to really discuss this issue myself, only suggesting that it is quite possible to see a strand of non-violence throughout all the Prophets of Old. (by this I mean physical violence...there of course remains an inner struggle and often violent conflict we all must deal with within ourselves. The struggle and war within each of us to become less egocentric, to become more loving, and to see all as our brothers and sisters. That is not what most people mean by "Pacifism" they mean non-physical violence, and hopefully everyone can agree to the term of "Pacifism" to mean the refusal to inflict physical violence upon another person, in a scholarly respectful manner, and not just as a pejorative word meaning "wimp" or other such nonsense. Because if anyone thinks Pacifism is "wimpy" all I suggest if for that person to go and try it out, and see how tough a person really is.

Well, I don't think it would be appropriate to discussion thus fuurther as subject was well covered in more than one thread. But the thing that we might agree on, that whether or not pacifism, as known today, is a Christian doctrine, one can not claim that non-pacifism is ungodly as he would be a blasphemy against the Prophets.

Also, a final note would be on how far can one take this pacifism idea, if one were to say that it's inherently evil to make any act of violence against physical beings why would it be acceptable to not take a pacfist stance against Satan and one's profane, carnal desires, as in the internal violence you spoke of which we call the greatest Jihad, a basic concept in Sufi thought. I mean Where and why is the line drawn?
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2010, 04:07:56 PM »

أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم
أب, إبنة, وكحول مقدّسة

I take refuge from the accursed Satan, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amin.

Salaam and Welcome to the forum, Mekki.  Smiley

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats.
I have seen many, many Muslima's (Muslim women) wearing 'strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair'.  I have witnessed them leave the masajid (mosques) only to go shopping at the malls to buy miniskirts and make-up.  Did I mention that as soon as they were out of sight from the men, they quickly threw off their hijabs and started smoking?  My friend, I do not mention these things to disparage Islam, but to show that we are all sinners.

He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.
I once visited a masjid where the men and women were dancing and singing together.  The song they were singing went like this;
"Hasbi rabbi jall 'allah, mafi qalbi ghair 'ullah! Noori Muhammad sall 'allah!"  Do you dance and sing songs like this at your mosque?

  

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.
I wonder if this is a masjid you're talking about now?  Smiley  My friend, I have visited many mosques where the people were 'back-biting' and talking of business.  Should I judge these people based on that?

I'm just describing two very possible encounters with Christianity and Islam, which serve as an indication of the current state of affairs for the two religion, drawing conclusions is up to you.

Regardless of individual cases, Muslims tend to be vry pious when in mosques, and a lot of them are also pious outside it alhamdulillah. Sometimes I go early to the night prayer in the nearby mosque (which is the biggest in the neighberhood, but there's a mosque practically in every block some of them are quite large) before the adhan, and I set there at the back of the mosque, and I must say, it's a heart thrilling scene to see people just pouring in for a daily prayer in humility and with no other puropose but worship their Creator Almighty.

Also, I don't think you and I would disagree that Muslims tend to adhere to their religion more strictly then Christian, even the Orthodox, and they tend to be, shall I say, more Christian, if we were to disregard theological matters.

Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.
Who is this Jesus of which you speak?  The Jesus I know prayed like this;


Luke 11:2-4

 2 "And he (Jesus the Christ) said unto them, 'When ye pray, say, "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.  Give us day by day our daily bread.  And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.'"

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.
Again, friend, this Jesus is a stranger.  The Jesus I do know can be found in the New Testament and understood here-

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

There's nothing in the Lord's prayer that a Muslim would disagree to. We do actually say it in meaning.

I think it would be interesting for everyone to look at this (Jewish prayer):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg




email tags in the above youtube link changed to url tags so that the redirect would be to the actual youtube video and not to an email application
-PtA
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2010, 07:12:02 PM »

A poeple's customs and norms should be limited by whichever wordl-view they adhere to.

Why?  And what do you mean by "world-view" please? Can "world-views" change over time or in different situations or do you think that they cannot or should not change?

Quote
It's such an indication of the state of Christianity today that it's more than acceptable for women to not wear headscarfs in the overwhelming majority of Chruches, even though it is regarded as an obligation by uncomprmizing Orthodox and Catholics as it is stated quite frankly in the Bible.

There are cultures on this planet where it is not the custom for women to cover their hair.  Japan is one example where hats might be worn while outside working or traveling but not in many other situations; a women is not counted as "immodest" there if her hair is visible or in a number of other parts of the world. 

Also, why just scarves?  What is wrong with some other headgear such as any of a multiple variety of hats?  That was the custom and norm in many, many places that people wore hats or hoods or mantles or other forms of head gear.  It was normal to the people for often very practical reasons such as warmth, protection from the elements and to keep the hair clean in times when bathing and hair-washing was not as easy as it is nowadays.

Quote
I wasn't talking about the volume, I was talking about the composition. There's a large difference between medieval Catholic ecclesiastical music and what you'd hear in a Baptist Chruch.

Well, you wrote "loud music", but are you actually referring to "modern" or "contemporary" music?  Have you been in many Baptist churches to hear what kinds of music they may be using in their worship?  Why should music be frozen in time and place as well? 

Ebor
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2010, 08:03:37 PM »

That's not quite what I was talking about. If what you said ws true, Catholicism would be the purest religion on Earth as it was the maint target of the "Enlightenment" which thought to annihilate anything Traditional, and anything of supra-human nature.

The Enlightenment led to many things including advances in learning, the concept of human rights, and science.  If it was "targeting" the RC or religion in general, it hasn't succeeded.

Quote
And where is "turning the other cheek" as most Christians seem to interpret it, you're not supposed to whine even if you were killed, but to call paying Jizya a prosecution is an exaseration to say the least.

It more more that just paying a tax and it was one that was not paid by muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya  
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/xstnc-5.html#9

How about the taking of Christian boys to be Janissaries by the Ottomans?  
http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/janissary.htm

Enslavement of women as concubines and servants
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/harem.htm

Raiding such places as the Irish town of Baltimore in 1631 by Barbary Pirates in which 154 people where taken and only 2 ever returned according to the records.
http://www.from-ireland.net/cor/hist/baltimoreraid.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml

Quote
Even if there multiple cases like what you described, it would almost impossible to come across it due to the odds. But the fact is, it's a single case that happened in Somalia. And there's no ambiguation about the Islamic stance on the subject, the girls goes and the rapists gets punished.

And would Jesus approve of the sentencing in the case in Iran at the moment of Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani who was to be stoned to death on a charge of adultery until the last day or so?
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/09/world/la-fg-iran-stoning-20100710
Or of the woman in Nigeria eight years ago who said she was raped but the court said she was guilty of adultery and should be stoned to death but was spared after an international outcry?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/muslim-woman-spared-death-by-stoning-in-nigeria-655429.html

Or would Jesus agree with honor killings of women and girls?  These are not unknown or hard to find, but are reported.

My point is not to somehow show that one side is all bad and another is all good.  But that to accuse Christians of wrong and evade things done by ones co-religionists is not showing the wider picture.

Ebor
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2010, 08:13:10 PM »

Moses and David waged wars and killed people, what do you think of them? Why did central Christian figures have swords on them and used them, like George? The only thing that saved Christianity from disappearence is that most, if not all, of the Christian who were in power didn't hold this interpretation of things.

"The only thing that saved Christianity"?  May I ask on what you base this assertion please?  Also, there are plenty of "central Christian figures" who do not have swords.  In the case of St. George he was a solder.  The history of pacifism in Christianity is complicated and not a binary all-or-nothing situation.

Quote
Yes, I have read it, but it's quite hard to interpret Christ's commandments to love one's neighbour, to turn the other cheek, not to call someone a fool etc as pacifism. When read in the light of the Prophets' legacy and reality it is impssobile to give such interpretation.

How so?  If one is not to respond to an attack by striking back how is that not pacific? How would the Second Great Commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself" be interpreted then?  If one does not like to be attacked or harmed, then one should not do it to one's neighbor which is more than just the people next door. 

Would you please give some more information about how you interpret these things with your referencing the "Prophet's legacy"?  Also in this sentence you mean only Mohammad or other prophets as well?  Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2010, 08:36:01 PM »

I'm just describing two very possible encounters with Christianity and Islam, which serve as an indication of the current state of affairs for the two religion, drawing conclusions is up to you.

I'm sorry, but what you wrote was two imagined encounters that serve to indicate your ideas of them and not necessarily any reality at least in regards to the Christian scenario, imo.  Do you have experience visiting any Christian churches that you then can base your imagining upon? 

Quote
Regardless of individual cases, Muslims tend to be vry pious when in mosques,

And many Christians I know tend to be very pious when in churches. I know pious and sincere older ladies, Anglican and EO, who do not cover their hair because it is not the custom and they don't wear skirts down to the ground but they are still modest and believing.  My muslim neighbors are also very fine people outside of their mosque (since I have never had the chance to observe them at worship that is all I can truthfully write)

Quote
Also, I don't think you and I would disagree that Muslims tend to adhere to their religion more strictly then Christian, even the Orthodox, and they tend to be, shall I say, more Christian, if we were to disregard theological matters.

I'm sorry, but you are making a very big assumption about Gabriel's experiences and views.  If you have had negative experiences with Christians that is very unfortunate.  Do you know many Christians personally and may one ask what Churches they belong to? 

Ebor




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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2010, 03:02:07 AM »

Quote from: Ebor link=topic=28652.msg452105#msg452105

Why?  And what do you mean by "world-view" please? Can "world-views" change over time or in different situations or do you think that they cannot or should not change?

A world-view is an intergal and interlinked prespective from which one sees the wolrd around him and formulates theories on how different aspect of it should work, e.g. state and society.

For example, in Islam, we reject democracy because we are not blinded by the dogma which states that men are equal and that a mass of these supposed equals is capable of making sound decision beyond individualistic, profan and carnal desires.

Quote

There are cultures on this planet where it is not the custom for women to cover their hair.  Japan is one example where hats might be worn while outside working or traveling but not in many other situations; a women is not counted as "immodest" there if her hair is visible or in a number of other parts of the world.
   

There are also other cultures where it is acceptable to go around naked, should we say that that is acceptable. I'm sure they had soething like that in Ethiopia, was Christianity wrong for changing it?

Quote
Also, why just scarves?  What is wrong with some other headgear such as any of a multiple variety of hats?  That was the custom and norm in many, many places that people wore hats or hoods or mantles or other forms of head gear.  It was normal to the people for often very practical reasons such as warmth, protection from the elements and to keep the hair clean in times when bathing and hair-washing was not as easy as it is nowadays.
   

Well, scarves are not required per se, the essential is to cover the hair, but scarves seem to be the most effective way to do so. Of course, you can't pull tricks on the Law, like some 'Orthodox' Judaics women do when they wear wigs to cover their actual hair.

Quote
Well, you wrote "loud music", but are you actually referring to "modern" or "contemporary" music?  Have you been in many Baptist churches to hear what kinds of music they may be using in their worship?  Why should music be frozen in time and place as well? 

I'd rather lithurgical music to be frozen in time than to change according to what's fashionable. But some, more or less, modern music is still good. Some Baroch music is fine (e.g. Back), even some contemprary ecclesiastical music is also not bad (.e. Arvo Part). But they certainly fall short of medieval music.

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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2010, 03:46:59 AM »

Quote from: Ebor link=topic=28652.msg452113#msg452113

The Enlightenment led to many things including advances in learning, the concept of human rights, and science.  If it was "targeting" the RC or religion in general, it hasn't succeeded.

There were no advancement in education whatsoever, their was  a regression to be more precise. Everything other than physical, natural knowledge has been denied and disregarded as either unnecessary or baseless and erroneous. And the former knowledge, the physical one, has been blown out of propotion and was given a higher stature than its actually stature as purely utilitarian science.

Sure more people can read and write now than before, but how many Aristotles, Aquinas and Imam Ghazalis has the "Enlightenment" begotten, zero. All the great minds who existed after that dreadful movement, existed against it and in spite of it.

Quote
It more more that just paying a tax and it was one that was not paid by Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya  
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/xstnc-5.html#9

How about the taking of Christian boys to be Janissaries by the Ottomans?  
http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/janissary.htm

Enslavement of women as concubines and servants
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/harem.htm

Raiding such places as the Irish town of Baltimore in 1631 by Barbary Pirates in which 154 people where taken and only 2 ever returned according to the records.
http://www.from-ireland.net/cor/hist/baltimoreraid.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml

Muslims also had to pay the Zakat. But you must see things in prespective. What we're dealing with is a theolcratic state that is hosting a people which not only considers the religion of their hosts to be false, they also would take any chanse they get to destroy them (sorry, but that's true). Allow me to give you a parable of the situation back then; It's like the United States allowing groups to be hardcore communists on its soild during the fifties and the sixties, with organizations and meetings and all. The reality is, the United States didn't just disallow communist groups from existing, it has prosecuted every individual who showed any sign of communism. Let me tell you this, paying a higher tax than the local population is much, much, much more fair than you can ever imagine.

Quote
And would Jesus approve of the sentencing in the case in Iran at the moment of Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani who was to be stoned to death on a charge of adultery until the last day or so?
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/09/world/la-fg-iran-stoning-20100710

He would probably not like it because the sentence was not carried due to to heathens' pressure. After all, stoning the adulterous is a clear biblical punishment.

Quote
Or of the woman in Nigeria eight years ago who said she was raped but the court said she was guilty of adultery and should be stoned to death but was spared after an international outcry?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/muslim-woman-spared-death-by-stoning-in-nigeria-655429.html

I don't know about that specific case, but probably everyone who was sentenced to death has claimed innocence at a point or an other. Even people who are fined 10 Euros for failing to observe the road lie claim innocence even though they are 100% sure that they are guilty, they are even willing to delay the policeman for ten minutes trying to argue themselves out of the fine. Things like this just happen.

It's certainly unfortunate that there are innocent people who are killed, jailed or fined, but it's an inevitable aspect of justice.

Quote
Or would Jesus agree with honor killings of women and girls?  These are not unknown or hard to find, but are reported.

As for that, it's not as common as you think it is, and it is by no means exclusive to Muslims.

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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2010, 04:13:27 AM »

Quote from: Ebor link=topic=28652.msg452115#msg452115

"The only thing that saved Christianity"?  May I ask on what you base this assertion please?  Also, there are plenty of "central Christian figures" who do not have swords.  In the case of St. George he was a solder.  The history of pacifism in Christianity is complicated and not a binary all-or-nothing situation.

I base it on the fact that Christianity would've been destroyed have it not been employing armies and war to both protect it self and to propagate the religion.

To be a little humorous, I must say that we would've loved it if Christians were really pacifists, then there would be no more than a few communities of Christians scattered in Europe and the near East among predominantly Muslim societies. The entire population which is Christian now in America, Africa and Asia would've also been Muslim. But, alas :-)


Quote
How so?  If one is not to respond to an attack by striking back how is that not pacific? How would the Second Great Commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself" be interpreted then?  If one does not like to be attacked or harmed, then one should not do it to one's neighbor which is more than just the people next door. 

Would you please give some more information about how you interpret these things with your referencing the "Prophet's legacy"?  Also in this sentence you mean only Mohammad or other prophets as well?  Thank you in advance.

Fighing someone doesn't necessarily mean that you hate him. You can fight a people out of love as to bring them salvation.

There's no shortage of hadiths about loving one's brother and neighbour (not just blood brother and neighborhood mate of course), but that was never interpreted as pacifism normally. That doesn't mean that there some liberal Muslims nowadays who use such hadiths to claim a pacifist position. That's certainly what we were thought in school in  'Islamic education' subject, which is dictated more by the US than by scholars.

And when I say Prophet's, I mean all of those you believe in. A lot of the Prophets were leaders of states and had armies and they fought wars and killed people, those who didn't didn't do so because they held pacifist stances but rather because they couldn't so mainly due to lack of followship. (e.g. Noah)
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2010, 04:21:37 AM »

I'm just describing two very possible encounters with Christianity and Islam, which serve as an indication of the current state of affairs for the two religion, drawing conclusions is up to you.

I'm sorry, but what you wrote was two imagined encounters that serve to indicate your ideas of them and not necessarily any reality at least in regards to the Christian scenario, imo.  Do you have experience visiting any Christian churches that you then can base your imagining upon? 

Quote
Regardless of individual cases, Muslims tend to be vry pious when in mosques,

And many Christians I know tend to be very pious when in churches. I know pious and sincere older ladies, Anglican and EO, who do not cover their hair because it is not the custom and they don't wear skirts down to the ground but they are still modest and believing.  My muslim neighbors are also very fine people outside of their mosque (since I have never had the chance to observe them at worship that is all I can truthfully write)

Quote
Also, I don't think you and I would disagree that Muslims tend to adhere to their religion more strictly then Christian, even the Orthodox, and they tend to be, shall I say, more Christian, if we were to disregard theological matters.

I'm sorry, but you are making a very big assumption about Gabriel's experiences and views.  If you have had negative experiences with Christians that is very unfortunate.  Do you know many Christians personally and may one ask what Churches they belong to? 

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2010, 04:32:14 AM »

I'd rather lithurgical music to be frozen in time than to change according to what's fashionable. But some, more or less, modern music is still good. Some Baroch music is fine (e.g. Back), even some contemprary ecclesiastical music is also not bad (.e. Arvo Part). But they certainly fall short of medieval music.

Hey, I agree that we should stick to the ancient stuff and that is exactly what Orthodoxy has kept.

Here is an ancient Orthodox hymn that is sung daily during Vespers in the Orthodox Church. The recording is in Arabic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysH2FCIZZNo&feature=related

Another ancient hymn also in Arabic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGIrAr9y90k&feature=related

You have to realize that all Christians don't have praise bands, "holy rollers," and all that junk.
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2010, 04:34:21 AM »

I'd rather lithurgical music to be frozen in time than to change according to what's fashionable. But some, more or less, modern music is still good. Some Baroch music is fine (e.g. Back), even some contemprary ecclesiastical music is also not bad (.e. Arvo Part). But they certainly fall short of medieval music.

Hey, I agree that we should stick to the ancient stuff and that is exactly what Orthodoxy has kept.

P.S.: Apologies for typo concerning Bach, can't fix it now!

Here is an ancient Orthodox hymn that is sung daily during Vespers in the Orthodox Church. The recording is in Arabic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysH2FCIZZNo&feature=related

Another ancient hymn also in Arabic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGIrAr9y90k&feature=related

You have to realize that all Christians don't have praise bands, "holy rollers," and all that junk.

Yes, yes, I'm well aware of that. Also, thanks for thanks for the links.
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« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2010, 04:38:00 AM »

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.

And we would obviously disagree with you. We believe Orthodoxy has kept the original Christian Faith.
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« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2010, 04:46:27 AM »

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.

And we would obviously disagree with you. We believe Orthodoxy has kept the original Christian Faith.

Well, almost half of Christians are Protestants, and there's much more Catholics than Orthodox, but I was not even talking about faith or doctrine, I'm talking about practice. Just take Lebanon, it has an almost equal number of Muslims and Christians, both are free to practice their religion or not, but which group has the highest percentage of women covering their hair? How about the highest percentage of chaste people? Mosque and Church attendance rate etc.
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« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2010, 05:02:28 AM »

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.

And we would obviously disagree with you. We believe Orthodoxy has kept the original Christian Faith.

Well, almost half of Christians are Protestants, and there's much more Catholics than Orthodox, but I was not even talking about faith or doctrine, I'm talking about practice. Just take Lebanon, it has an almost equal number of Muslims and Christians, both are free to practice their religion or not, but which group has the highest percentage of women covering their hair? How about the highest percentage of chaste people? Mosque and Church attendance rate etc.
Do you take the piety of its practitioners to be the best indicator, or even a good indicator of the truth of a religion?  I'm glad you see those of your religion as more pious in their practice of Islam than we Christians are of our religion, and it saddens me that those who call themselves Christians don't take the practice of their faith that seriously.  But your superior piety doesn't prove that the religion of Islam is true and superior to Christianity.
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« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2010, 05:14:22 AM »

I'm by no means saying that Christians are bad, what I'm saying is that Christianity, unlike Islam, has failed to preserve the purity of the religion as it was practised by the early societies.

And we would obviously disagree with you. We believe Orthodoxy has kept the original Christian Faith.

Well, almost half of Christians are Protestants, and there's much more Catholics than Orthodox, but I was not even talking about faith or doctrine, I'm talking about practice. Just take Lebanon, it has an almost equal number of Muslims and Christians, both are free to practice their religion or not, but which group has the highest percentage of women covering their hair? How about the highest percentage of chaste people? Mosque and Church attendance rate etc.
Do you take the piety of its practitioners to be the best indicator, or even a good indicator of the truth of a religion?  I'm glad you see those of your religion as more pious in their practice of Islam than we Christians are of our religion, and it saddens me that those who call themselves Christians don't take the practice of their faith that seriously.  But your superior piety doesn't prove that the religion of Islam is true and superior to Christianity.

Not that I don't consider Islam to be superior to any form of Christianity, and even though the Gospel says that a tree is to be judged by its fruit, it was not my intention to do so in this thread. I was merely referring to the fact that Christians in average have diverged from what would be considered to be pious in an Israelities contest both in every day life and in worship (not that both are not interlinked), someting which can't be said about the average Islamic society.

Even if there were deviant aspects in some Muslim communities lives, they are ferociously fought by scholars and pious laymen, whereas, in most Christian communities, dissolution is not only very common but also encouraged as being Christian (like I said, almost half of Christians are Protestant, and Protestants are not alone in this phenomenon).
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« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2010, 07:34:35 AM »

Jesus descends, he walks in into a church in Wednesday morning, he spends the entire day there, and no one shows up, he asks they reverend what's going on he tells him to come back in Sunday for that's when people come to worship. So Jesus returns in Sunday, to find the three rows full by mostly women wearing strange clothing above the knee and uncovering their hair except for some who wear strange hats. He takes a seat a bit near some women, he keeps his mind busy with trying to decipher how it is acceptable for women in this time to dress like that and sit among men in that way, but he couldn't help but to hear what the women were talking about, they were not talking about righteousness and giving advise to each other, they were back biting and speaking lowly of other people in the church and outside. He thought maybe that's the nature of women, maybe those three men he saw at the end of the church are talking about goof matter, he moved next to them, but to his surprise they were talking about business and business. Losing all hope, he walks outside of the church, and as he approaches the door, he hears strange loud music coming from behind, he turns and see the reverend that he talked to earlier singing and dancing and making strange noises, soon after the women stand up and start dancing as well. He shakes his head and continues his way out.

Not far from the church, he sees a few men walking in to a building in humility smiling at each other and shaking hands, and into the same building but from another door, some women dressed decently were walking in. He walked in himself and sat down at the back and saw the man who keep walking in praying like he and the Israelites prayed, and then they sat down in silence. There were, here and there, couples talking to each other, so he moved next to one of the couples, they were talking about how they will visit a sick man they knew in school who's one of them heard he was in hospital. He moved next to another couple and they were talking about Job and his ordeals and he overcame them.

Suddenly a man stood up and started chanting in a language very close to what Jesus used to speak. Hearing him, everyone stood up and made rows behind the leader and started praying, again in humility and in the same way Jesus prayed.

After the prayer ended and people started walking out, he approached the man who was leading the worshippers, and asked him if it is like this every day, the man answered affirmatively and added that it's like this five times a day, except for the dawn prayer where there's less people and the nights prayer where there's more. He also told him that in fridays and in holy days the place of worship, which is called a mosque, gets completely full and sometime people have to pray outside of the building. A smile appears on the face of Jesus and shakes his head, vertically this time, and walks out.

and woke up Mohammad, the hero of wishful thinking.
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« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2010, 08:06:15 AM »

and woke up Mohammad, the hero of wishful thinking.

I'm sorry, I can't say I got what you're expressing there. Could you please clear things up a little?
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« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2010, 08:08:02 AM »


I'm sorry, I can't say I got what you're expressing there. Could you please clear things up a little?

I mean this cheap tale is a product of wishful thinking. Muslims like such tales because Mohammad was a man dedicated to wishful thinking. Check the Qur'an to understand what I mean.  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2010, 08:25:16 AM »

I mean this cheap tale is a product of wishful thinking. Muslims like such tales because Mohammad was a man dedicated to wishful thinking. Check the Qur'an to understand what I mean.  Wink

You mean that if you entered a random Church in the West you'll find it full of worshipers in a Wednesday and you'll find the mall observant to the Christian dress code and talking about religious matters and being pious all over? And the opposite if you  walked into a random mosque in the same day?
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« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2010, 10:14:32 AM »


... but I was not even talking about faith or doctrine, I'm talking about practice. Just take Lebanon, it has an almost equal number of Muslims and Christians, both are free to practice their religion or not, 

 Did you really post "Both are free to practice their religion..."?  Because even though the Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion, in actual practice, it's quite a different thing altogether.  There are Christian's whose faith is not important to them, but there are Muslims who fit that category too.  The difference is that in Christianity, it's a matter between the person and God (and perhaps their pastor or Priest), while in Islam it's a matter of the person and the crowd of people holding rocks.  See where I'm going with this?  I don't think you really want to pursue this one, friend.
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« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2010, 10:16:29 AM »

I mean this cheap tale is a product of wishful thinking. Muslims like such tales because Mohammad was a man dedicated to wishful thinking. Check the Qur'an to understand what I mean.  Wink

You mean that if you entered a random Church in the West you'll find it full of worshipers in a Wednesday and you'll find the mall observant to the Christian dress code and talking about religious matters and being pious all over? And the opposite if you  walked into a random mosque in the same day?

 I've been in plenty of 'random' mosques and my experience has been the exact opposite of what you're telling us.  Mosques on any other day than Friday are like what American's call 'ghost towns' i.e. there's hardly any one there.
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« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2010, 10:42:41 AM »

Did you really post "Both are free to practice their religion..."?  Because even though the Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion, in actual practice, it's quite a different thing altogether. 

Yes, yes, yes, both Christian and Muslims are free to go to pray or not, to go to the mosque or the church or not, free to be pious or not, free to fornicate or not. There's no practised law against those things and hardly any social pressure against them.

And the verse you referred to is not interpreted as a call to let people do whatever they will, Islam does not condone chaos and anarchy.

Quote
There are Christian's whose faith is not important to them, but there are Muslims who fit that category too.  The difference is that in Christianity, it's a matter between the person and God (and perhaps their pastor or Priest), while in Islam it's a matter of the person and the crowd of people holding rocks.  See where I'm going with this?  I don't think you really want to pursue this one, friend.

Perhaps you are more knowledgeable about the state of things in Lebanon than I, but I still find what you're saying quite strange. Here in Morocco, a country much more conservative than Lebanon, you don't get any harassment for not praying or not observing the law, even for fornication, something which is very unfortunate indeed. But I wouldn't call you a liar if you said that things are different in Lebanon, and that Muslims there are only pious because otherwise people would throw rocks at them or whatever you're saying.
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« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2010, 10:44:58 AM »

I've been in plenty of 'random' mosques and my experience has been the exact opposite of what you're telling us.  Mosques on any other day than Friday are like what American's call 'ghost towns' i.e. there's hardly any one there.

All I know is that we have five prayers a day and the mosques are never short of worshipers even during the dawn prayer and even though there's a mosque at every corner. But perhaps we have an exception here, I wouldn't call you a liar again.
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« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2010, 10:55:30 AM »

I've been in plenty of 'random' mosques and my experience has been the exact opposite of what you're telling us.  Mosques on any other day than Friday are like what American's call 'ghost towns' i.e. there's hardly any one there.

All I know is that we have five prayers a day and the mosques are never short of worshipers even during the dawn prayer and even though there's a mosque at every corner. But perhaps we have an exception here, I wouldn't call you a liar again.
And yet it's still nothing more than wishful boasting if your religion is false.
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« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2010, 11:50:11 AM »

Let me tell you this, paying a higher tax than the local population is much, much, much more fair than you can ever imagine.



You need to go to a board where the group posting there has never lived under Islam.  You need to go elsewhere to have people believe your fairy tales and justifications. 

The tax was not fair.  It was never fair.  There were times in history, such as during the eighth century, when the taxes were so ruinously high that no one could possible pay them.  When they couldn't be paid, people were given the choice to convert to Islam or be put to the sword.  The Armenians would never convert, so they would be put to the sword.  Or, I should say, the men were put to the sword while the women and children were taken and sold into slavery, often sexual slavery.  Entire cities were wiped off the map this way.  And your justification that this was an act against a rebellious people is just a lie.  These cities were wiped out because they could not pay a tax and they would not convert. 

And the taxes were not only monetary.  Throughout the history of Islamic rule, there was also a tax to be paid in women and children, the most notorious being the Devshirme tax of the Ottomans.  Even after the Devshirme was abolished (not for humanitarian reasons, but because the Sultan became afraid of them,) women and children were still taken.  Usually it was prepubescent girls who were taken to be sold as concubines.  It wasn't exclusively girls, though.  In Istanbul there was a notorious brothel that was staffed with little boys for men who had that perversion.  The little boys were forcibly taken from Christian homes, as part of your "fair" tax.

This sort of thing continued into the early 20th century.  The sheer barbarity of the practice cannot be quantified, and you call it "fair."  How fair would you call it if in Christian countries Muslims were subject to having their twelve year old daughters dragged away from their homes, never to be seen by their families again, so that they can be sold as concubines?  That was the daily life of Christians living in Muslim countries for 13 centuries.  My great grandmother was married at a very young age just to avoid being taken like that.  She used to describe to my mom how the girls in her village would cut their faces so they wouldn't be taken when news came that the Turks were coming.

Your attempts to justify atrocities won't work here.  Go elsewhere with this cr*p.  You can also go elsewhere with your insulting caricatures of Christians.  You want proof of devotion to God?  How about enduring 13 centuries of persecution, slaughter, and watching your children be dragged off to be sold as sex slaves, all because you refuse to convert to another religion?  Is that devout enough for you? 

And I haven't even touched on the Genocide.  That will just make me mad, and I don't want to be mad this morning.

Your posts here make me sick. 
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« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2010, 11:57:34 AM »

Let me tell you this, paying a higher tax than the local population is much, much, much more fair than you can ever imagine.



You need to go to a board where the group posting there has never lived under Islam.  You need to go elsewhere to have people believe your fairy tales and justifications. 

The tax was not fair.  It was never fair.  There were times in history, such as during the eighth century, when the taxes were so ruinously high that no one could possible pay them.  When they couldn't be paid, people were given the choice to convert to Islam or be put to the sword.  The Armenians would never convert, so they would be put to the sword.  Or, I should say, the men were put to the sword while the women and children were taken and sold into slavery, often sexual slavery.  Entire cities were wiped off the map this way.  And your justification that this was an act against a rebellious people is just a lie.  These cities were wiped out because they could not pay a tax and they would not convert. 

And the taxes were not only monetary.  Throughout the history of Islamic rule, there was also a tax to be paid in women and children, the most notorious being the Devshirme tax of the Ottomans.  Even after the Devshirme was abolished (not for humanitarian reasons, but because the Sultan became afraid of them,) women and children were still taken.  Usually it was prepubescent girls who were taken to be sold as concubines.  It wasn't exclusively girls, though.  In Istanbul there was a notorious brothel that was staffed with little boys for men who had that perversion.  The little boys were forcibly taken from Christian homes, as part of your "fair" tax.

This sort of thing continued into the early 20th century.  The sheer barbarity of the practice cannot be quantified, and you call it "fair."  How fair would you call it if in Christian countries Muslims were subject to having their twelve year old daughters dragged away from their homes, never to be seen by their families again, so that they can be sold as concubines?  That was the daily life of Christians living in Muslim countries for 13 centuries.  My great grandmother was married at a very young age just to avoid being taken like that.  She used to describe to my mom how the girls in her village would cut their faces so they wouldn't be taken when news came that the Turks were coming.

Your attempts to justify atrocities won't work here.  Go elsewhere with this cr*p.  You can also go elsewhere with your insulting caricatures of Christians.  You want proof of devotion to God?  How about enduring 13 centuries of persecution, slaughter, and watching your children be dragged off to be sold as sex slaves, all because you refuse to convert to another religion?  Is that devout enough for you? 

And I haven't even touched on the Genocide.  That will just make me mad, and I don't want to be mad this morning.

Your posts here make me sick. 

The post from which you've quoted that part explains in enough details why the Dhimmi status is more than fair. I don't think I have to repeat that.

And may I ask you something; Why would you complain about anything that might have happened to you if you understand Jesus' saying to trun the other cheek as you do? There seems to be a lack of consistency there.
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« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2010, 12:27:07 PM »

The post from which you've quoted that part explains in enough details why the Dhimmi status is more than fair. I don't think I have to repeat that.

It's obvious that neither you nor any of your relatives have ever lived as dhimmi.


Quote
And may I ask you something; Why would you complain about anything that might have happened to you if you understand Jesus' saying to trun the other cheek as you do? There seems to be a lack of consistency there.

Nice try at using our religion to keep us silent so you can spread your lies.  Turing the other cheek, however, is not the same thing as allowing others to lie about history.

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« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2010, 12:37:23 PM »

Quote from: Salpy
It's obvious that neither you nor any of your relatives have ever lived as dhimmi.

You're using the lowest type of moralism as an argument. Let's say there's a country where they put the rapists, muderderers and all worst criminal in a 5 star hotels with 5 stars service but they can't go outside, they are free to do whatever they want inside however. Guess what would happen if the state in this country decided to let these criminals vote for whether they want to kkep this "punishment" or to abolish all punishments for those crimes and set them free. You will have a few empty 5 star hotels. This is just how things work. 5and please don't say I'm calling you criminals)

Quote
Nice try at using our religion to keep us silent so you can spread your lies.  Turing the other cheek, however, is not the same thing as allowing others to lie about history.

This has nothing to do with what we say, it's all about how you deal with events. Let's say Muslim around the world made a joined statements saying that they have been to Christian worst than any group has ever been to an other group, would that make you accept that treatment and ask for more, that is, turing the other cheek?
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« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2010, 01:18:30 PM »

And may I ask you something; Why would you complain about anything that might have happened to you if you understand Jesus' saying to trun the other cheek as you do? There seems to be a lack of consistency there.

You misunderstand. We simply bring up what our martyrs went through in order to show the reality of what happened when you try to tell us otherwise. We remember the martyrs and we will tell about them because we must remember their sacrifices because maybe one day, we will have to face the same trials. We are not complaining about what happened, we are really just informing since you are trying to say that things were always fair for the Christians.
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